Suspect Insight Forums
Suspect Insight Forums
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Go down
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
Moderator
Moderator

Opinions on this feat: - Page 2 Empty Re: Opinions on this feat:

on Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:27 am
That was Jorak Uln, and it was on Korriban, not Thule. We know the students were still there because they joined Revan's Empire later.

That's wasn't really my point. It's clear that Kun's Brotherhood is both training many Sith and has many active Sith on the battlefield (given they flee back to Korriban). Accordingly, it seems reasonable to figure that these "Sith warriors" predominately include these rank-and-file Sith. 

If the place is a base of operations for the Sith then Kun establishing it means that he'd obviously have to have a hand in it. Even if it wasn't the case, Kun scales from them anyway, which only makes it even more impressive.

This is where we disagree. I don't think Kun necessarily scales from it, given the collective activity of Sith over a period of time can't be equated to Kun's individual dominance over any one Sith at a specific time (note that I don't even necessarily agree that Kun's far stronger than Qel-Droma, but we can save that discussion for another day). We have absolutely no clue what those Sith were doing, how long they were doing it, how much the Dark Reaper's dark side nexus factored in (probably a lot, hence why they decided to make this imbuement on Thule specifically), etc. There's an infinite amount of unknown elements and not even one known element.

The deal you brought up with Yavin IV doesn't really make sense either because Kun was actively trying to keep the enemy from knowing its location. Do remember that Yavin IV was a secret location that Sadow established and the Republic remained unaware of until Ulic revealed it when he betrayed Kun. Thule, I'd imagine, was more of an open staging ground for the war, whereas Yavin IV was Kun's secret seat of power.

Thule was set up as a headquarters - likely for the Dark Reaper campaign led by Qel-Droma - but the actual public Sith capital seems to be Korriban, Mandalore, and/or Empress Teta. Thule is actually specifically noted not to be a capital world for the Brotherhood. So, I'd really need more to think that Kun commonly frequented there.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Opinions on this feat: - Page 2 Empty Re: Opinions on this feat:

on Sun Apr 21, 2019 7:52 am
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
That was Jorak Uln, and it was on Korriban, not Thule. We know the students were still there because they joined Revan's Empire later.

That's wasn't really my point. It's clear that Kun's Brotherhood is both training many Sith and has many active Sith on the battlefield (given they flee back to Korriban). Accordingly, it seems reasonable to figure that these "Sith warriors" predominately include these rank-and-file Sith. 

If the place is a base of operations for the Sith then Kun establishing it means that he'd obviously have to have a hand in it. Even if it wasn't the case, Kun scales from them anyway, which only makes it even more impressive.

This is where we disagree. I don't think Kun necessarily scales from it, given the collective activity of Sith over a period of time can't be equated to Kun's individual dominance over any one Sith at a specific time (note that I don't even necessarily agree that Kun's far stronger than Qel-Droma, but we can save that discussion for another day). We have absolutely no clue what those Sith were doing, how long they were doing it, how much the Dark Reaper's dark side nexus factored in (probably a lot, hence why they decided to make this imbuement on Thule specifically), etc. There's an infinite amount of unknown elements and not even one known element.

The deal you brought up with Yavin IV doesn't really make sense either because Kun was actively trying to keep the enemy from knowing its location. Do remember that Yavin IV was a secret location that Sadow established and the Republic remained unaware of until Ulic revealed it when he betrayed Kun. Thule, I'd imagine, was more of an open staging ground for the war, whereas Yavin IV was Kun's secret seat of power.

Thule was set up as a headquarters - likely for the Dark Reaper campaign led by Qel-Droma - but the actual public Sith capital seems to be Korriban, Mandalore, and/or Empress Teta. Thule is actually specifically noted not to be a capital world for the Brotherhood. So, I'd really need more to think that Kun commonly frequented there.

That they have an unknown amount of trainee Sith really doesn't matter. Because they pale next to Kun, individually or collectively. If the entire Jedi Order only had the power to imprison Kun's spirit on Yavin IV because they couldn't take him out properly, then the Sith obviously aren't. Better yet, Kun is stated to be far more powerful than any other Jedi of the time. Which includes Ulic.

A period of time which was a fraction of less than a year. This isn't a nexus created over years or decades or centuries. It's in, like, a month. Tops. It's obviously supposed to refer to Kun and Ulic rather than a bunch of unknown random Sith trainees that are referenced in completely different sources.

You'd have to first find a source that states the Dark Reaper leaves behind a nexus or even is one, then explain why it didn't have that effect on a whole bunch of the other planets it was used on. Then you need to explain why it could even possibly be the Dark Reaper when Thule was the fourth planet Ulic took the weapon to. Then you need to explain why the source actually refers to the Dark Reaper in an extremely vague manner rather than the actual context of the Sith warriors setting up a base there as the reason for the corruption.

The Dark Reaper campaign was started by Ulic and the Krath. Thule was only the fourth planet the weapon was taken to, it can't be the staging ground for the Dark Reaper campaign.

Better yet, even if you did argue all of this successfully, you'd then need to argue why Exar Kun doesn't scale from the Dark Reaper anyway. Per Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side, Jedi VS. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, and The New Essential Chronology Exar Kun created the superweapon via alchemy, which means it was created out of his own power. Much like Sidious sith chrysalids and Valkorion with Monoliths. It's a measure of his own power. The Dark Reaper is actually a lot like the Golden Globe which Kun earlier created to drain Massassi.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
Moderator
Moderator

Opinions on this feat: - Page 2 Empty Re: Opinions on this feat:

on Sun Apr 21, 2019 8:41 am
@LadyKulvax:

That they have an unknown amount of trainee Sith really doesn't matter. Because they pale next to Kun, individually or collectively. If the entire Jedi Order only had the power to imprison Kun's spirit on Yavin IV because they couldn't take him out properly, then the Sith obviously aren't. Better yet, Kun is stated to be far more powerful than any other Jedi of the time. Which includes Ulic.

To clarify, you think Kun's comparable and/or more powerful than the collective Jedi Order?

A period of time which was a fraction of less than a year. This isn't a nexus created over years or decades or centuries. It's in, like, a month. Tops. It's obviously supposed to refer to Kun and Ulic rather than a bunch of unknown random Sith trainees that are referenced in completely different sources.

As shown in the picture below, I found that Thule was already a major dark side nexus then occupied by an elite Sith stealth regiment (with "regiment" generally taken as a thousand). A month or so may not seem a lot, but the collective energy output of many Sith on a major dark side nexus across the span of the month is more-than-likely greater than Kun's energy output in a combat situation. 

Opinions on this feat: - Page 2 Thule10

I think this find sort of settles the debate - or at least justifies my many Sith point and adds another layer of ambiguity to an already unquantifiable showing - although your point on Kun being greater than the Sith collective is definitely worth another discussion.

You'd have to first find a source that states the Dark Reaper leaves behind a nexus or even is one, then explain why it didn't have that effect on a whole bunch of the other planets it was used on. Then you need to explain why it could even possibly be the Dark Reaper when Thule was the fourth planet Ulic took the weapon to. Then you need to explain why the source actually refers to the Dark Reaper in an extremely vague manner rather than the actual context of the Sith warriors setting up a base there as the reason for the corruption.

The Dark Reaper campaign was started by Ulic and the Krath. Thule was only the fourth planet the weapon was taken to, it can't be the staging ground for the Dark Reaper campaign.

I was going off where you said, "2.Thule is where Kun had the Dark Reaper." I'm no longer sure what you meant by that, but I thought you meant the Dark Reaper originated on Thule, hence my argument. My bad. Opinions on this feat: - Page 2 1289255181 

Better yet, even if you did argue all of this successfully, you'd then need to argue why Exar Kun doesn't scale from the Dark Reaper anyway. Per Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark SideJedi VS. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, and The New Essential Chronology Exar Kun created the superweapon via alchemy, which means it was created out of his own power. Much like Sidious sith chrysalids and Valkorion with Monoliths. It's a measure of his own power. The Dark Reaper is actually a lot like the Golden Globe which Kun earlier created to drain Massassi.

I think you and @TrevaDaProgSnob are debating this argument in another thread, so I'll wait and see how that pans out, but depending on how it does I'll also try to take a swing at it, since I'm not sure I agree.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Opinions on this feat: - Page 2 Empty Re: Opinions on this feat:

on Sun Apr 21, 2019 9:40 am
@DarthAnt66 wrote:@LadyKulvax:

That they have an unknown amount of trainee Sith really doesn't matter. Because they pale next to Kun, individually or collectively. If the entire Jedi Order only had the power to imprison Kun's spirit on Yavin IV because they couldn't take him out properly, then the Sith obviously aren't. Better yet, Kun is stated to be far more powerful than any other Jedi of the time. Which includes Ulic.

To clarify, you think Kun's comparable and/or more powerful than the collective Jedi Order?

A period of time which was a fraction of less than a year. This isn't a nexus created over years or decades or centuries. It's in, like, a month. Tops. It's obviously supposed to refer to Kun and Ulic rather than a bunch of unknown random Sith trainees that are referenced in completely different sources.

As shown in the picture below, I found that Thule was already a major dark side nexus then occupied by an elite Sith stealth regiment (with "regiment" generally taken as a thousand). A month or so may not seem a lot, but the collective energy output of many Sith on a major dark side nexus across the span of the month is more-than-likely greater than Kun's energy output in a combat situation. 

Opinions on this feat: - Page 2 Thule10

I think this find sort of settles the debate - or at least justifies my many Sith point and adds another layer of ambiguity to an already unquantifiable showing - although your point on Kun being greater than the Sith collective is definitely worth another discussion.

You'd have to first find a source that states the Dark Reaper leaves behind a nexus or even is one, then explain why it didn't have that effect on a whole bunch of the other planets it was used on. Then you need to explain why it could even possibly be the Dark Reaper when Thule was the fourth planet Ulic took the weapon to. Then you need to explain why the source actually refers to the Dark Reaper in an extremely vague manner rather than the actual context of the Sith warriors setting up a base there as the reason for the corruption.

The Dark Reaper campaign was started by Ulic and the Krath. Thule was only the fourth planet the weapon was taken to, it can't be the staging ground for the Dark Reaper campaign.

I was going off where you said, "2.Thule is where Kun had the Dark Reaper." I'm no longer sure what you meant by that, but I thought you meant the Dark Reaper originated on Thule, hence my argument. My bad. Opinions on this feat: - Page 2 1289255181 

Better yet, even if you did argue all of this successfully, you'd then need to argue why Exar Kun doesn't scale from the Dark Reaper anyway. Per Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark SideJedi VS. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force, and The New Essential Chronology Exar Kun created the superweapon via alchemy, which means it was created out of his own power. Much like Sidious sith chrysalids and Valkorion with Monoliths. It's a measure of his own power. The Dark Reaper is actually a lot like the Golden Globe which Kun earlier created to drain Massassi.

I think you and @TrevaDaProgSnob are debating this argument in another thread, so I'll wait and see how that pans out, but depending on how it does I'll also try to take a swing at it, since I'm not sure I agree.

I was referring to the following:

The Old Republic: Timeline 7 - The Exar Kun War wrote:Though unable to defeat him entirely, the Jedi were able to imprison his spirit in the temples of Yavin IV.

The Jedi could only imprison him, they couldn't vanquish his spirit. Not that the Sith we refer to would even start to compare to the Jedi numbers.

2.The picture also says that it was no longer inhabited by a regiment of Sith after the Great Hyperspace War. Given the general rule of thumb regarding the deterioration of dark side power across a thousand years(See: Korriban).

The problem there is it still doesn't offer any kind of contradiction as the quote in the OP states that it was the Sith Warriors establishing a base of operations on Thule which caused most of the crust of the planet to be corrupted with dark side residue. So whatever other context may or may not have occurred in the greater history of Thule, what's stated is still what's happened.

Even if you reconcile this as Thule already having been strong with the dark side. That the corruption was pushed way beyond that within a month only proves how much more impressive this is.

Keep in mind:

*Thule is absolutely gargantuan as a planet, it dwarfs Dromund Kaas by 5,000+ kilometers, which is already an absolutely monstrous planet in size.

*The Great Sith War was six months in length per numerous sources, this occurred at 'the height' of the war. So even a month might be much too long.

*Exar Kun himself is among the most potent dark side nexuses in the lore, even as a spirit.

*Exar Kun's spirit has the same feat, albeit less impressive. His dormant spiritual presence caused the dark side to pervade across Yavin IV:

The Star Wars Spy Game: Declassified wrote:A dark presence permeated the very jungles (Luke would many years later encounter the spirit of the bygone Dark Lord Exar Kun trapped in the Great Temple)

Given all of this, it is still very relevant to Kun.
Hellsjudge
Hellsjudge

Opinions on this feat: - Page 2 Empty Re: Opinions on this feat:

on Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:27 am
If Vitiate gets the benefit of his supremacy over Exar Kun because he has not existed as concept when Kun was a Sith Lord concept. Why cannot the same be available for Vitiate's "supremacy" over Sidious?


Many overpowered Sith Lords were not even a thing when the Dark Empire Trilogy had been published. But I do not see anyone "complaining" about that.
The Fallen Warrior
The Fallen Warrior
Level Three
Level Three

Opinions on this feat: - Page 2 Empty Re: Opinions on this feat:

on Mon Apr 22, 2019 5:29 am
@Hellsjudge wrote:If Vitiate gets the benefit of his supremacy over Exar Kun because he has not existed as concept when Kun was a Sith Lord concept. Why cannot the same be available for Vitiate's "supremacy" over Sidious?


Many overpowered Sith Lords were not even a thing when the Dark Empire Trilogy had been published. But I do not see anyone "complaining" about that.

I see your point, which is why the majority of us feel that quotes are binding, because otherwise we would have Sheev > Vitiate running around the forums and that is just wrong on many levels...
Hellsjudge
Hellsjudge

Opinions on this feat: - Page 2 Empty Re: Opinions on this feat:

on Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:27 pm
In-sidiousvader wrote:
@Hellsjudge wrote:If Vitiate gets the benefit of his supremacy over Exar Kun because he has not existed as concept when Kun was a Sith Lord concept. Why cannot the same be available for Vitiate's "supremacy" over Sidious?


Many overpowered Sith Lords were not even a thing when the Dark Empire Trilogy had been published. But I do not see anyone "complaining" about that.

I see your point, which is why the majority of us feel that quotes are binding, because otherwise we would have Sheev > Vitiate running around the forums and that is just wrong on many levels...


I thought this EU Fandom was literally one made of numerous Sheevites and not Vitiots.
The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

Opinions on this feat: - Page 2 Empty Re: Opinions on this feat:

on Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:44 pm
My first question is: how did Kun do it?

My initial impression is: using a wide variety of means over an undetermined length of time. Anything falling under the umbrella of "using the dark side" would have contributed to this concentration of energy, like the storage of trinkets, training of acolytes, imbuing buildings and the environment with dark energy, practising alchemy, etc.

So, not attributable to Kun's personal power.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Opinions on this feat: - Page 2 Empty Re: Opinions on this feat:

on Tue Apr 23, 2019 12:52 pm
The height of a war that lasted under six months. None of the context suggests anything you've invented. They set up a base to operate from and the planet's crust was thus infused with dark side residue.
The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

Opinions on this feat: - Page 2 Empty Re: Opinions on this feat:

on Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:21 pm
So not just Kun but many of his followers set up a base, for months, and you can't tell me what exactly they did to infuse the planet with the dark side, and I'm supposed to care about this feat in a versus context why exactly?
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Opinions on this feat: - Page 2 Empty Re: Opinions on this feat:

on Tue Apr 23, 2019 1:33 pm
I just told you Thule was set up at the height of the war that lasted less than six months. It can't be months if this is only the height of said six months. At the most, it's a month. Kun and a bunch of newbies infused the planet's crust with their presence within said time frame.

This is consistent with Kun's dormant spirit permeating the jungles of Yavin IV with the dark side.
The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

Opinions on this feat: - Page 2 Empty Re: Opinions on this feat:

on Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:45 pm
@LadyKulvax wrote:I just told you Thule was set up at the height of the war that lasted less than six months. It can't be months if this is only the height of said six months. At the most, it's a month. Kun and a bunch of newbies infused the planet's crust with their presence within said time frame.

This is consistent with Kun's dormant spirit permeating the jungles of Yavin IV with the dark side.
You're neglecting to mention the presence of the Dark Reaper on said planet as well as the fighting between Jedi and Sith that took place. Causing death and destruction causes the spread of the Dark Side very quickly.

"I know where it is. The planet is called Thule. Thousands of years ago it was an ancient Sith stronghold. Ulic fought there during the war. That's where the Dark Reaper is buried."
―Anakin Skywalker (Star Wars: The Clone Wars video game)

I'm not privy to the finer details of what happened on Thule because I haven't seen any sources on it or played this game, but everything you've said in this thread about the matter so far has stunk rotten of shit. Your quote says when Thule served as the base of operations for the Sith, but it doesn't actually say when or explain how it became saturated with the dark side. It just says that it became so. Because Encyclopedias such as The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia do not invent new information, but simply summarise existing information, I advise you to actually scour the primary material for clarity on what happened on Thule rather than trying to bend a single sentence from tertiary material to your biases.

Also, source for the Yavin IV thing? If you have one.
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

Opinions on this feat: - Page 2 Empty Re: Opinions on this feat:

on Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:51 pm
Not attributable to Kun's personal power.
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

Opinions on this feat: - Page 2 Empty Re: Opinions on this feat:

on Tue Apr 23, 2019 4:53 pm
^
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Suspect Hero | Level Four
Suspect Hero | Level Four

Opinions on this feat: - Page 2 Empty Re: Opinions on this feat:

on Wed Apr 24, 2019 3:20 am
ILS wrote:
@LadyKulvax wrote:I just told you Thule was set up at the height of the war that lasted less than six months. It can't be months if this is only the height of said six months. At the most, it's a month. Kun and a bunch of newbies infused the planet's crust with their presence within said time frame.

This is consistent with Kun's dormant spirit permeating the jungles of Yavin IV with the dark side.
You're neglecting to mention the presence of the Dark Reaper on said planet as well as the fighting between Jedi and Sith that took place. Causing death and destruction causes the spread of the Dark Side very quickly.

"I know where it is. The planet is called Thule. Thousands of years ago it was an ancient Sith stronghold. Ulic fought there during the war. That's where the Dark Reaper is buried."
―Anakin Skywalker (Star Wars: The Clone Wars video game)

I'm not privy to the finer details of what happened on Thule because I haven't seen any sources on it or played this game, but everything you've said in this thread about the matter so far has stunk rotten of shit. Your quote says when Thule served as the base of operations for the Sith, but it doesn't actually say when or explain how it became saturated with the dark side. It just says that it became so. Because Encyclopedias such as The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia do not invent new information, but simply summarise existing information, I advise you to actually scour the primary material for clarity on what happened on Thule rather than trying to bend a single sentence from tertiary material to your biases.

Also, source for the Yavin IV thing? If you have one.

The Dark Reaper wasn't even on Thule until the Sith lost the thing to the Republic. So obviously it isn't the source of the dark side corruption that was caused, as it was stated that this was due to them establishing a base there. The cause is literally stated, as is the time frame, you're inventing an issue where one doesn't even exist.

The Star Wars Spygame: Declassified wrote:A dark presence permeated the very jungles (Luke would many years later encounter the spirit of the bygone Dark Lord Exar Kun trapped in the Great Temple)
Sponsored content

Opinions on this feat: - Page 2 Empty Re: Opinions on this feat:

Back to top
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum