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Praxis
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SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Empty SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

on February 18th 2020, 9:07 pm
SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) 4I8aTy6

Kyp Durron as of The New Jedi Order: The Unifying Force and the Outlander as of The Old Republic: Onslaught.

Each side will be limited to three posts. The first post, not including response or sourcing quotes, will have a maximum of 10,000 original characters, the second 17,500, and the third 25,000. Each debater will have a 2,500 finisher. There will be no time limit enforced for each post. The verdict will be decided by a panel of judges to be announced.

This thread follows all default stipulations listed in the "Guidelines" thread. Additional rules are as follows:

  • Feats take precedence over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.
  • Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.
  • All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.


@MasterCilghal will be opening.
IG
IG
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SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Empty Re: SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

on February 19th 2020, 7:32 am
TAEP. Good luck to both of you.
HellfireUnit
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SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Empty Re: SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

on February 19th 2020, 7:49 am
TAEP, amazing match up. Good luck to both parties.
Nute_Chethray
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SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Empty Re: SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

on February 19th 2020, 9:50 am
TAEP
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Empty Re: SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

on February 19th 2020, 11:40 am
This could be awesone. Good luck to both of you .TAEP
Dolph
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SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Empty Re: SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

on February 19th 2020, 11:56 am
TAEP
The lord of hunger
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SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Empty Re: SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

on February 19th 2020, 3:03 pm
TAEP
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SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Empty Re: SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

on March 12th 2020, 5:05 pm
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
Relativity to Luke and subsequent scaling 






One of Kyp’s greatest assets when it comes to his raw power is his stated relativity to Luke Skywalker as of early stages of the Vong invasion. Later iterations of Luke do outclass Kyp by a rather significant margin, but I think it’s clear that  Durron by the time of rebel dream is comparable to the Luke who manipulated a dovin basal in the early stages of the war, or at the very least the amount of power Luke was drawing on in that specific instance,the novel in fact describes him as drawing on the force more deeply then he had in years (link ) which considering the amount of effort required, the state in which he was left afterwards and the overall effects on his body would probably mean close to to his full power. This is further supported by several statements. For example, Jedi knight Skidder considers the two comparable in power: 


Agents of chaos 1 wrote:‘But there were other Jedi Knights, as powerful as Skywalker in Skidder’s estimation, who took issue with some of the Master’s teachings. Jedi Master Kyp Durron, for one.

Or else Tahiri, who thinks Kyp should have been sent to take down Nyax had it been a matter of power or skill, which strongly indicates he’s at least second after him by the time of rebel dream: 

Rebel Dream wrote:‘"Yes, I do." Tahiri didn't sound apologetic or contrite. "But if it were just a matter of skills, or power for that matter, you'd be trying to send Kyp Durron, wouldn't you?"’


Lastly, Kyp himself considers himself stronger than that Luke after achieving a famous feat against a dovin basal, which ended with him being less exhausted, despite the feat taking place in the middle of a space battle. Kyp uses the feat as proof that he’s more powerful than Luke, something he considers definitive and unquestionable: 

Rebel Dream wrote:Luke Skywalker had done this once, a couple of years ago. He'd mentioned it to the other Jedi. No one else had tried it because it had exhausted Luke to the point of collapse, and Jedi were seldom in a position to survive a technique that tired them so completely.

[...]

And he didn't think he'd be as terribly drained as Luke by the technique. He was stronger in the Force than Luke Skywalker.
He'd known that almost since they'd met - that he had more pure power than the legendary Jedi Master. But this was, perhaps, the first time he'd been able to say it to himself without a little thrill of pride. He was just stronger, and that was all. It usually didn't matter. Now it did.

 While Kyp is obviously arrogant and might be overestimating himself (all indications are against it in this specific passage) this comparison would not make any sense if Kyp were magnitudes below that iteration of Luke. After all, every character mentioned previously have been able to sense Luke’s power. For instance, here’s how Jacen describes it:


Destiny's way wrote:Utterly confused, Jacen stretched out through the Force. First he sensed the figure in white as a respected uncle - then abruptly as a powerful depth, blazing in the Force like a star gone nova.

And how he sees Kyp:

Ylesia wrote:When you looked at Kyp Durron, you know you were seeing an enormously powerful weapon. If only Jacen didn’t know how erratic that weapon had been.’

As seen above, this description it does fit with the usual depiction of an incredibly powerful jedi master that we’re given of Luke, of whom all characters in the story have an extremely high opinion. Yet, despite this, Kyp is consistently compared to Luke and held in similarly high regard, by members of the Skywalker lineage no less. Having said that, let’s take a look at what Luke has achieved and why Kyp’s relativity to him is so impressive. First of all, by the time of the Vong war, Luke was described as growing ever more in touch with the force


By the time the Yuuzhan Vong invaded the galaxy, Luke was a true Jedi Master, growing ever more in touch with the Force. His struggle against the extragalactic invaders would redefine Luke’s life and even his view of the Force itself as he learned from his own experience as well as his niece’s and nephews’ growth as Jedi.
Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20081228094650/http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=swminis/article/universepreview10




This is after several stated significant leaps in power he experienced in the new republic era, all taking place after DE (link to all the relevant quotes ). Notably, the Luke we see at the beginning of DE was noted as being unlocking the power of the old masters (which is obviously referring to Kenobi and Yoda, given they are mentioned in the previous sentence) and towards the end he’s noted as Sheev’s greatest adversary, a quote that’s referring to a lightsaber duel and which is reinforced by Luke later defeating Palpatine in a lightsaber duel:




SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) IPpja8y-lbNiHepppCNrnLGiCfwiHUr8ZI4_aZ-LwQeTVIk3Pi3l978kZhR-GcMT7GUGYUFf0N_W8LJQyLnX0jUzT0gtElC9ljDijZOvduIcBKUi9wI8HnO0c7iuhdoY-uq06zjl




SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) QXVYndZXqH2_7-KB9mKXaYRwpIT96cCAzBTJ2H9u-xz2R3RZq0ZdHbphRvVxDPQUKIPJVBdyuamNCyKN2gKhAiferQiXXuiKlezHNw2lDS6w8JHgPVilSrvXOmOy6eMxvkViMxPE




SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) HF7wa9SxIi3bAzYXGSGfrcgxT8EEFj2NIw4Sb9AGM28i1AvVUdhfzU_CWLZRYfLs8Y5ztyfokA8xUBm0jTYV4So_NK-ppsPIxT21knVGNDtBagrWJ5IkGdygTwWfq9nlqFyswRMR



This means that by the end of DE Luke is solidly superior to Yoda when it comes to force power. This is particularly notable since Yoda equaled Palpatine in their confrontation in ROTS, and is downright stated to to be equally as powerful as the emperor himself, or slightly inferior to him in their confrontation. 


Mysteries of the jedi wrote:Yoda's knowledge of the Force makes him just as powerful as Darth Sidious.


The complete encyclopedia wrote:Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Although Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end the Sith bested him.


Considering Luke holds an advantage in power over Yoda it should be sufficient to cover any gap between himself and the emperor. 
Now, why is this important? The emperor, by ROTS has several quotes placing him as the most powerful Sith Lord in history, many of whom written out of universe but that all reflect a similar intent, and is overall one of the ratified and supported stances in he mythos:


When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history. "Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy," says Wheless, "like a force he's never dealt with before."
Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm


This means Sidious enjoys a power advantage over Malgus, even as he is portrayed in onslaught. The same Malgus who gave the outlander a very good fight in their confrontation. While most of the fight is gameplay, which is obviously S-canon, we can deduce it from other factors:




(1)The game dialogue, which paints the picture of Malgus holding off the outlander rather well: 


The old republic wrote:You thought I was destroyed all those years ago... I will show you the true nature of destruction!"

"None of you have the resolve--the strength to beat me!"

"Your resistance is commendable... but futile."





(2)Their later interaction in the cutscene, where an exhausted Malgus menages to blast the Outlander away and long enough for him to escape. It’s notable that the Outlander fails to defend himself or even  catch up to Malgus, which is what one would expect had there been a massive gap between the two:









Furthermore, while it may seem irrelevant at face value, i wouldn’t completely dismiss the presence of the two other jedi. Surely the outlander did most of the work, and by far at that, but Gnost-Dural’s commentary right before the fight (Dural has fought Malgus previously ) emphasizes the need for the three to fight as one, which would have been the key to achieve victory, and adds that his presence would have made fueled Malgus’ anger, making his presence detrimental to the team. Overall, it’s clear Dural views Malgus as a threat to the outlander, which is not disproven by the fight itself. 





 Furthermore, we know from other duels that the presence of a team, even comprised of fodder helping a single combatant who is doing most of the work against a single opponent, can be pivotal to the said combatant’s success. For example, Kyle Katarn was in a similar position against Caedus, meaning he was the most important member of the strike team while his allies were dismissed by Caedus as being fodder, yet one of them saved Katarn and prevented the fight from ending in 10 seconds (link to all the relevant quotes ). 
That said,this is  what we’re left with: 
Early NJO Luke~/>Kyp Durron>>>JA Luke>EoDE Luke>>BoDE Luke>Yoda~ROTS Sheev>Malgus




Lastly, It’s important to note that the amount of power which Kyp displays in this time period can be called upon very quickly, as confirmed by Kyp’s own commentary in dark journey, wherein right after unleashing massive exertion of force power to move around a giant ship, his impulsive action causes the death of several of his pilots: 




Spoiler:
Death came to the pilots with a speed that neither fear nor thought could match. Neither of them saw its approach. None of their final emotions came through to Kyp—only a sudden, almost deafening blast of silence.
Grief and guilt rose in Kyp like a dark tide. He bore down, sternly crushing these emotions before they could alter his focus, his course. He would not do this. He would not give way to the uncertainty that had so crippled his fellow Jedi.
Yet he could not deny that once again, he had undertaken a massive use of Force power and, in doing so, had inadvertently caused the death of those close to him.
Kyp forced himself back into the battle. He quickly took stock of his situation. Only Octa remained, and two of her pilots. The four of them could still do some damage.
He hailed his surviving Dozen and named a vector reasonably free of battle. “We’ll regroup in quartet formation under my command.”
The ships responded at once, jinking a path through the Jedi ships.”
[…]
“Nine more of his pilots had died, adding their names to the lengthening roster of those who had died under his command since the war started. Though their deaths weighed heavily on Kyp, he accepted this as the fortunes of war. But never before had he crossed the lines he’d drawn long ago and brought about a comrade’s death through the power of the Force. At this dark moment, it seemed to him that this single act negated all the good he had done, all his steadfast arguments, everything for which he stood.
A moment of indecision, no more, but the price was high. Coralskippers closed in on Octa’s ships like a pack of voxyn.”


Essentially, Kyp considered their deaths as fortune of war and he does not allow his emotions to get the better of him while in a moment of concentration, which means that at this point, Kyp is essentially able to make use of his power without qualms or real problems. Compare this with Kyp‘s musings in Exile (link ) and the contrast is clear. While he has some remorse in DJ as well, such a factor would not be present in a fight with a single opponent, as Kyp doesn’t have anyone under under his command to take care of.
 Furthermore, Kyp has proven equally as capable against a single opponent, seizing Jaina Solo, who at this point already way beyond average in power, without any noticeable effort: 


Dark journey wrote:The Jedi Master stormed into the building and up the stairs. The guards who moved to stop him flew aside, untouched by any visible hand or weapon.
The Wookie stepped forward, and Kyp aimed a psychic blast that send the two-and-a-half meter, ginger-furred Jedi straggered back.
He seized Jaina with the same dark energy and spun her to face him.‘



 Obviously, this means that he could do much more. 



Conclusion




In this fight, not only does Kyp hold a sizable power advantage, but he has several assets, including rare abilities such as the aura of uneasiness and a lightsaber technique completely unknown to the Outlander, the three rings of defense. As for Kyp’s overall lightsaber skills, it will be explained in subsequent posts. 


Spoiler:
The ball is now in the court of my opponent, @Praxis
IG
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SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Empty Re: SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

on March 12th 2020, 5:12 pm
Great post
MasterCilghal
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SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Empty Re: SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

on March 13th 2020, 2:37 am
@Geistalt this is a debate between me and Praxis, please do not state your opinion on the arguments.
xolthol
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SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Empty Re: SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

on March 17th 2020, 9:40 am
@MasterCilghal Interresting and really solid post.
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SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Empty Re: SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

on May 4th 2020, 3:19 am
Message reputation : 100% (8 votes)
SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) GXxkDDo

"The will of the Force is a flowing current. You can follow it, or fight it, but it is always there. It is not an ally, slave, or transaction. The Force is a paradox. It empowers and imprisons. It destroys and unites. It binds the galaxy together and tears people apart. It has a will... but needs a commander."


The Anchor

In Dark Forces: Jedi Knight we see Kyle Katarn embark on a spiritual journey where he flow-walks into the past and witnesses the creation of the Thought Bomb by the Brotherhood of Darkness. He sensed the power of the Sith adepts creating the weapon and was deemed a novice in comparison.

Once assembled, the Dark Army was woefully small. Less than two thousand Jedi compared to ten times that number that had followed Kaan into the first few battles. Still, though small they were in number, these were the smartest, strongest, and most powerful of the lot, for the rest were dead, having been overpowered by Hoth and the Army of Light. The air hummed with barely controlled energy. Kaan stood and the chambers fell silent. His eyes roamed the audience, found those he knew to be leaders, and claimed their minds.

"Greetings, brethren… and welcome to darkness. Our great and noble cause has come to an end. The forces who favor anarchy over structure have won. For what is this 'democracy' they speak of if not the absence of order? Of reason? Surely the strong should rule - for that is nature's way.

"But we must forget what could have been - and focus on what is. Defeat looms only hours away and with it, the loss of all we had hoped for. I ask that you join me in one last task. The creation of a weapon so powerful that when it is detonated, the victors shall become the vanquished and be swept from the pages of history."

Kaan was a skilled orator and knew when to stop. The chambers fell silent. LaTor allowed the silence to build… and broke it with the traditional salute. "Kaan rules!"

The answer came like a thunder and echoed off the chamber walls. "Kaan rules!"

And so the decision was made to place death before life. More than a thousand highly trained minds were focused on a single task. First came the creation of a mental construct that was analogous to a bomb casting. A container in which energy could be stored. Then came the process of turning the Force inside out, of tapping the darkness within and channeling that energy into the newly created vessel.

Time hung suspended, the air crackled with barely suppressed energy, and three of the Jedi died, their minds overcome by the violence of the process. Others went insane, rose with weapons drawn, and were executed by the master-at-arms.

Kyle was a novice compared to those around him and might have been killed if it hadn't been for LaTor and the other Jedi's strength. For LaTor was strong, very strong, and Kyle was impressed by the power resident in the dark side. The power and relative ease of access… a temptation for anyone with the necessary talent.

Finally, their robes soaked with sweat and their hearts beating like trip hammers, the Brotherhood was done. The thought bomb was complete. The time had come to venture out into the sunlight, to embrace the victors and drag them into hell.


Dark Forces: Jedi Knight


It's fair to assume that the Dark Lords numbering only 100 would be more powerful than the 2000 other adepts present at the creation of the Thought Bomb.

The constant battling of the Sith since the beginning of recorded history served a necessary purpose: it kept the power of the dark side concentrated in a few powerful individuals. The Brotherhood had changed all that. There were now a hundred or more Dark Lords following Kaan, but most were weak and inferior. The Sith numbers were greater than they had ever been, yet they were still losing the war against the Jedi.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction


The students on Korriban were the strongest in the Brotherhood, even more so than the Dark Lords.

"You know what you have to do,” Kopecz told him, his voice losing some of the anger. He had chosen to follow Kaan; he wouldn't abandon him now. But he wasn't about to sit idly by and face certain defeat. "We face an army of Jedi Knights and Masters. We can't stand against them without our own Masters from the Academy. The students, too. All of them."

"They are mere apprentices," Kaan protested.

"They are the strongest of our order," Kopecz reminded him. "We both know even the lowliest students on Korriban are stronger than half the so-called Dark Lords here on Ruusan."


Darth Bane: Path of Destruction


Githany was noted to be exceptionally powerful even among the other students on Korriban. During the spars in the Academy, she "crushed" every other student who challenged her.

Githany was as arrogant and cruel as she was physically becoming, and the Force was exceptionally strong in her. In only a few weeks she'd already developed a reputation for crushing those who got in her way. It was no surprise she had quickly became a favorite of Qordis and the other Dark Lords.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction


Sirak was noted to be a clear superior to Githany.

She gave him a sly smile. "Still don't trust me? Good. You shouldn't. I'm only in this for myself. I can't defeat Sirak on my own. He's too strong.”

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction


"[Sirak] may not be the Sith'ari, but he's still too strong for you. You can't face him in the dueling ring, Githany. I've studied him; I know how good he is. You can't beat him."

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction


Qordis shrugged. "Sirak is the strongest student at the Academy. For now. Perhaps in time he will surpass Kas'im and me and all the other Sith Lords. Perhaps not."

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction


PoD Bane is far beyond Qordis (a superior of Sirak as noted above) as he was able to instantly rip through Qordis' barrier. Barriers are noted to be disproportionately potent compared to the power of the wielder.

"And therein lies the problem." Bane lashed out with the dark side, seizing Qordis in an immobilizing, crushing grip. His opponent tried to protect himself, throwing up a field to deflect the incoming assault, but Bane's attack tore through the pitiful defense, wiping it away as if it hadn't even been there.

Darth Bane: Path of Destruction

SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Disproportionate_Force_barriers


After Bane acquired the orbalisk armor, he experienced daily growth from the parasites, and by DoE he is even stronger than his orbalisk covered incarnation.

SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Bane_grew_daily


In Bane and Zannah's final duel, Zannah notes that Bane is faster and more skilled now than when he had the orbalisk armor.

She fell into a defensive posture as she so often had during their training sessions. But this was no drill, and her Master came at her with a speed and ferocity she had never faced before. Giving in to his orbalisk-fueled bloodrage, he was like a wild animal, raining savage blows down on her from all angles, the strikes coming so fast it seemed as if he wielded a dozen blades at the same time. Zannah fell into a full retreat, desperately giving ground beneath the overwhelming assault.

Darth Bane: Rule of Two


He was faster than she could ever have imagined, and he was using new sequences and unfamiliar moves he had never revealed during their practice sessions. But somehow she had survived the initial flurry, and now she knew what to expect.

The next exchange had a more familiar feel. Bane pressed the action with a devastating, complex combination of attacks, but Zannah was able to intercept, parry, or deflect each one. Her defensive style was simple, but performed correctly it was nearly impenetrable.

Recognizing this, Bane backed off and changed tactics. Instead of a savage, relentless pressure meant to overwhelm her, he settled into a pattern of feints and quick thrusts, probing and prodding her defenses in search of a weakness as the two of them settled in for a long battle of attrition.

Zannah had fought him once before, back when he was still encased in his orbalisk armor. She remembered it had been like battling a force of nature: the chitinous parasites covering his entire body had been impervious to lightsaber attacks, allowing him to attack with pure animal rage. She had survived that encounter only by convincing Bane she hadn't betrayed him, and in the end he had let her live.

His style back then had been brutish and simple, though undeniably effective. Now, however, his technique was more advanced. Unable to simply bully his way heedlessly forward, he had developed an unpredictable, seemingly random style. Each time she thought she could anticipate where the next attack was coming from, he changed tactics, disrupting the rhythm of the battle and causing her to give ground.


Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil


Bane's willpower increased as well.

Bane had stayed conscious through the torture of the electricity cooking him alive and the agony of the teeth burrowing into his flesh. But the indescribable pain from the chemicals released by the exploding orbalisks dissolving his body on a cellular level finally caused him to black out... only to wake up here.

Darth Bane: Rule of Two


Suddenly the tendrils flew at him. He slashed out with his lightsaber to chop the closest one in half, but the blade simply passed through the black mist with no effect. Bane threw himself to the side, but the tip of the tentacle still brushed against his left shoulder.

The material of his clothes melted away as if it had been splashed with acid. A chunk of flesh beneath simply dissolved, and Bane screamed in agony.

Once, orbalisks had fused themselves to his body with a burning chemical compound so intense it had nearly driven him mad. Ten years ago they had been removed when Bane's flesh had been literally cooked by a concentrated blast of his own violet lightning. During her interrogation, Serra had pumped him full of a drug that had felt like it was eating him alive from the inside. But the excruciating pain he felt from the mere touch of the dark side tendril was unlike anything Bane had ever experienced before.

The damage was far from life threatening, but it nearly sent Bane into shock. He fell hard to the ground, his jaw slack and his eyes rolling back into his head. His mind was reeling from the brief contact. The pain radiated through every nerve in his body, but what he felt went far beyond any mere physical sensation. It was not the raw heat of the dark side but rather the empty chill of the void itself spreading through him. It touched every synapse in his mind, it clawed at the core of his spirit. In that instant he tasted utter annihilation, and felt the true horror of absolute nothingness.

Somehow he managed to stay conscious, and when the next tentacle coiled in he was able to scramble to his feet and roll out of the way.


Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil


DoE Bane was faster, more skilled, and stronger willed than his earlier iterations, therefore, DoE Bane > Orbalisk Bane > non-orbalisk RoT Bane > PoD Bane.


As I'm sure you know, each generation of Banites grew more powerful than the last.

For a millennium, the Sith maintained the order in secrecy, passing down their evil heritage. As they gained knowledge of the dark side of the Force, their powers increased with each generation.

Episode I: The Phantom Menace Scrapbook


SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) 5161760-screen%20shot%202016-04-19%20at%207.45.03%20pm


So someone such as Tenebrous who is located at the tail end of the Banite line should be considerably above Bane.

Tenebrous > ... > DoE Bane > Orbalisk Bane > non-orbalisk RoT Bane > PoD Bane >>> Qordis > Sirak >> Githany >> Korriban student >>> Dark Lord >> Sith Adept >>> 5 ABY Kyle Katarn



Luke believes that Gaalan may have been a match for Kyp or Kyle which implies that he believes they are comparable duelists.

Gaalan struck at Luke, high, low, a series of subtle and sophisticated blows that would have bewildered any lesser duelist. He was good; Luke gave him that. He might have been a match for an expert swordsmaster such as Kyp or Kyle Katarn. He would have been too much for a comparatively diffident duelist such as Cilghal, or even Luke as he had been back at Sinkhole Station, at low ebb in physical and mental strength.

Fate of the Jedi: Backlash


Considering that Kyp is mainly a duelist and so is Katarn, I think it's fair to say that they are comparable combatants. Luke has known and trained both Jedi for several decades, so I think it’s fair to say he's a reliable authority in this situation.

Kyp as of 40 ABY has only gotten better with time as he notes that he is "no weaker in the Force" and "a lot more skilled" than when he was a teen and amped by Exar Kun. There isn't anything that suggests 43 ABY Kyp regressed over the course of three years so I think it's fair to apply this principle to his 43 ABY iteration as well.

When I was still a teenager, I was able to reach into the gravity well of a gas giant and pull a spacecraft out of it. That's something that not many Masters could accomplish. I could do it because I was strong in the Force ... and because I had absolute faith in my right, my need to use that craft for a specific purpose. But I doubt I could do it today. I'm no weaker in the Force, and I'm a lot more skilled... but today I'd know that my intended purpose was not a good one, and this knowledge would deny me the focus I needed then to perform that task. So was I a Master then, or am I a Master now?"

Legacy of the Force: Exile


The quote is saying that Kyp would lack the focus to drive a ship out of the core of a gas giant that was going to be used to exterminate the Empire due to the dark side intentions behind the act. He doesn't consider himself any less powerful than his amped younger self, rather just that he wouldn't be able to focus on committing acts with dark side intent. There is no reason to use this quote to gimp 40 ABY Kyp as inferior to earlier iterations which I think you tried to do with your last point and is instead just less likely to use his power to commit dark side acts.


Tenebrous > ... > DoE Bane > Orbalisk Bane > non-orbalisk RoT Bane > PoD Bane >>> Qordis >> Githany >> Korriban student >>> Dark Lord >> Sith Adept >>> 5 ABY Kyle Katarn < ? < 43 ABY Kyle Katarn ~ 43 ABY Kyp Durron > ? > 29 ABY Kyp Durron


Ancients > Banites

Both Naga Sadow and Exar Kun possessed the ability to extend their corporeal life by draining energies released during the death of others. In 67 BBY, Darth Plagueis concludes with certainty that the fact they could do this means either they were "genuinely more powerful than him" or the galactic dark side tilt empowered them to be more powerful than him. Either option makes Sadow and Kun more powerful than Plagueis as of then. Plagueis at this time is repeatedly indicated to be at least approaching Darth Tenebrous in power, whereas Freedon Nadd was far more powerful than Sadow, which implies that Nadd was far more powerful than Tenebrous.

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2804-a-case-for-the-neo-antediluvians

Freedon Nadd >> Naga Sadow > 67 BBY Plagueis ~ Tenebrous > ... > DoE Bane > Orbalisk Bane > non-orbalisk RoT Bane > PoD Bane >>> Qordis >> Githany >> Korriban student >>> Dark Lord >> Sith Adept >>> 5 ABY Kyle Katarn < ? < 43 ABY Kyle Katarn ~ 43 ABY Kyp Durron > ? > 29 ABY Kyp Durron


The Hero/The Outlander/The Commander

Scourge states the Hero of Tython has the potential to be the most powerful Force user in history, more so than Revan or Vitiate, so his natural growth alone would be exceptionally potent.

SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Mk9UonH


While only in his early twenties, a weakened Hero defeats a more powerful Vitiate than the one Revan Reborn lost to, scaling him far above Malak, Nadd, Sadow, and Tenebrous. Subsequently, the Hero experiences considerable growth--facing Malgus, Soa, the Dread Masters, Revan, etc.--and spiritual purification at the hands of the spirit of his late master, Orgus Din. Nevertheless, the Outlander is thoroughly dominated by Arcann. If the Outlander elects to use Valkorion's power, he is rendered comatose for days while Arcann is able to defend against Valkorion's attack and come out unscathed. If he doesn't then Arcann telekinetically pulls him onto his saber in what would have been a deathblow if not for Valkorion healing the wound. Evidently, the gap between KOTFE CH. 8 Outlander and Arcann is considerable, to say the least. The Outlander then experiences spiritual enlightenment to ascend "beyond light or dark" on top of a permanent raw power boost from Valkorion to then defeat Arcann even after fighting through Arcann's considerable flagship defenses. Even then, the Outlander is dominated by chained Vaylin so convincingly the Outlander thought she was more powerful than Valkorion, and after their encounter, she experiences an explosion of growth after becoming unchained and obtaining access to her full power. The Outlander benefits from further vast permanent raw power boosts by Valkorion to then virtually defeat unchained Vaylin in one-on-one combat. By the end of KOTET, the Outlander has been forged into a "vessel of supreme power worthy of preserving [Valkorion's] spirit" in contrast to being rendered comatose channeling only some of his power. The Outlander then experiences further growth facing the Six Gods, the Order of Zildrog, and the restored Sith Empire.

Outlander > Vaylin >> Arcann >>> Act III HoT >> Revan Reborn >> SF Malak >> Freedon Nadd >> Naga Sadow > 67 BBY Plagueis ~ Tenebrous > ... > DoE Bane > Orbalisk Bane > non-orbalisk RoT Bane > PoD Bane >>> Qordis >> Githany >> Korriban student >>> Dark Lord >> Sith Adept >>> 5 ABY Kyle Katarn < ? < 43 ABY Kyle Katarn ~ 43 ABY Kyp Durron > ? > 29 ABY Kyp Durron


Rebuttals


Spoiler:

@MasterCilghal wrote:
This is after several stated significant leaps in power he experienced in the new republic era, all taking place after DE (link to all the relevant quotes ). Notably, the Luke we see at the beginning of DE was noted as being unlocking the power of the old masters (which is obviously referring to Kenobi and Yoda, given they are mentioned in the previous sentence) and towards the end he’s noted as Sheev’s greatest adversary, a quote that’s referring to a lightsaber duel and which is reinforced by Luke later defeating Palpatine in a lightsaber duel:




SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) IPpja8y-lbNiHepppCNrnLGiCfwiHUr8ZI4_aZ-LwQeTVIk3Pi3l978kZhR-GcMT7GUGYUFf0N_W8LJQyLnX0jUzT0gtElC9ljDijZOvduIcBKUi9wI8HnO0c7iuhdoY-uq06zjl




SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) QXVYndZXqH2_7-KB9mKXaYRwpIT96cCAzBTJ2H9u-xz2R3RZq0ZdHbphRvVxDPQUKIPJVBdyuamNCyKN2gKhAiferQiXXuiKlezHNw2lDS6w8JHgPVilSrvXOmOy6eMxvkViMxPE




SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) HF7wa9SxIi3bAzYXGSGfrcgxT8EEFj2NIw4Sb9AGM28i1AvVUdhfzU_CWLZRYfLs8Y5ztyfokA8xUBm0jTYV4So_NK-ppsPIxT21knVGNDtBagrWJ5IkGdygTwWfq9nlqFyswRMR



This means that by the end of DE Luke is solidly superior to Yoda when it comes to force power. This is particularly notable since Yoda equaled Palpatine in their confrontation in ROTS, and is downright stated to to be equally as powerful as the emperor himself, or slightly inferior to him in their confrontation. 


Mysteries of the jedi wrote:Yoda's knowledge of the Force makes him just as powerful as Darth Sidious.


The complete encyclopedia wrote:Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Although Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end the Sith bested him.


Considering Luke holds an advantage in power over Yoda it should be sufficient to cover any gap between himself and the emperor. 
Now, why is this important? The emperor, by ROTS has several quotes placing him as the most powerful Sith Lord in history, many of whom written out of universe but that all reflect a similar intent, and is overall one of the ratified and supported stances in he mythos:


When Yoda crosses sabers with the movie's arch-villain, he doesn't launch into a pinwheeling display of acrobatics, as he did against Count Dooku in Episode II. Instead, Yoda faces the dark side's fury, channeled by the most powerful Sith Lord in history. "Rob Coleman wanted Yoda to feel the power of his enemy," says Wheless, "like a force he's never dealt with before."
Insider #86: Yoda's Right Arm


This means Sidious enjoys a power advantage over Malgus, even as he is portrayed in onslaught. The same Malgus who gave the outlander a very good fight in their confrontation. While most of the fight is gameplay, which is obviously S-canon, we can deduce it from other factors:

The crux of your argument relies upon DE Luke erroneously scaling over ROTS Yoda/Sheev and therefore over Malgus because of the "greatest adversary" quote. Your justification for what you want the quote to imply is that "greatest adversary" is mentioned following a sentence referring to Luke and Sheev's lightsaber duel and therefore greatest adversary means most powerful adversary but Luke is Sheev's greatest adversary regardless of their duel due to being largely responsible for destroying the Empire and Sheev's death in ROTJ. There is a greater context than just their duel for Luke being Sheev's greatest adversary so taking that quote and claiming that Luke is Sheev's most powerful adversary is ignoring all the other reasons behind the statement that have little or nothing to do with Force power. There are plenty of reasons why Luke is Sheev's greatest adversary and being his most powerful adversary doesn't necessarily have to be one of them to still be constituted as greatest.

Also, Sheev hasn't been in a legitimate lightsaber duel for roughly 30 years, and considering that he only employed a lightsaber to humiliate Jedi it's likely his skills atrophied since there weren't any more Jedi to humiliate and would've been a useless skill for him to maintain. The fact that Sheev calls lightsaber dueling "silly Jedi games" in DE obviously implies that thinks such a thing is a waste of time. Why would he waste his time practicing something that he considers silly and has no use anymore without the Jedi around? The gap between Sheev's dueling skills and his Force powers have always been apparent when you consider that he was disarmed in his fights with Windu, Yoda, and Luke but then matched or overwhelmed them with his Force powers, so Luke disarming Sheev isn't unprecedented and he did it with an amp from Leia to boot so it isn't indicative of him being more powerful than Sheev or his previous opponents. Unlike Windu and Yoda, Luke had no hope of defeating Sheev through conventional means and could only do so through a Force Harmony with Leia and Anakin Solo. Essentially, disarming an out of practice Sheev in a duel while amped doesn't scale Luke above earlier iterations of Sheev or Windu or Yoda since those fights came down to Force power rather than lightsaber ability and Luke in DE was demonstrably inferior to Sheev when it came to Force power.



Callista as of The Clone Wars: No Prisoners is portrayed as an average Jedi who doesn't really have any special talents besides being able to transfer her consciousness into computers. She is also canonically capped below Yoda as of ROTS and with the ascendant dark side and lack of combat training after the destruction of the Jedi I think it's safe to say that she probably didn't experience mega-growth between ROTS and 18 BBY when she transferred her consciousness to the Eye of Palpatine. Callista's commentary seems to imply that she's not a Master of the Jedi arts, and considering that they are evenly matched later on as shown below, neither is Luke:

She went on, “I’m recording everything I remember about Djinn’s teaching.” Her voice was very quiet, like the offer of a gift she wasn’t sure would be well received. “I’ve been working on this, on and off, since you first told me about what you’re doing. Techniques, exercises, meditations, theories—sometimes just the stories he’d tell. Everything I remember. Things that I don’t think should be lost. Things that will help you. I understand that a lot of the techniques, a lot of the … the mental powers, the ways to use the Force … can’t be described, can only be shown, one person to another, but … they may be able to help you, after you leave here.” “Callista …,” he began desperately, and her voice continued resolutely over his. “I’m not a Master, and my perception of them isn’t a Master’s perception … But it’s all the formal training that you didn’t have the chance to receive. I’ll make sure you have the wafers of as much of it as I can finish, before you leave.” “Callista, I can’t …” He felt her gaze on him, rain-gray and steady, as she had looked at Geith; and he couldn’t go on. “You can’t let this battle station fall into the hands of whoever it is who’s learned to use the Force to move electronic minds,” she said. She was so real—she had come back so far along the road—that he would have sworn he felt the touch of her hand on his. “I traded my life for it thirty years ago, and I’d trade yours and Cray’s and whoever else is on this battle station if I—if we—have to. Where did you send the others?”

Children of the Jedi


Additionally, it's stated that in The Essential Chronolgy that Callista is equal to Luke in Force power as of 12 ABY which is after Dark Empire. It should be noted that Callista was stuck in a computer since 18 BBY so she would most likely be about as powerful if not weaker by 12 ABY.

SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) 2020-03-19_26


Callista and Luke are also equal in sabers as Callista matched him "move for move" and they "pressed with all their strength" and were locked in a "complete stalemate".

Luke smiled encouragingly. "Come on, I'm not asking you to deflect blaster bolts with your eyes closed. Watch me, anticipate my moves. You don't have to use the Force-just use your eyes and your reflexes."

Callista drew a deep breath. Her eyes flashed with determination, and she switched on her own weapon. The snaphiss from both blades sizzled through the enclosed common area. Her lightsaber shone with the rich sun yellow of topaz, and she looked past her shimmering blade to Luke. "You know this is dangerous, " she said.

He crossed his blade with hers, testing, pressing lightsabers together with a crackle of released energy. His expression grew serious. "I know it's dangerous, Callista-but we have to take that chance. We might stumble upon some clue to bring you back to us."

He drew back, lifted his blade, and swung at her. She raised her lightsaber to parry, easing into the contest. "These are deadly weapons,"

Luke said, "but they're also fine tests of your skill."

Callista struck back, and her face lit with an impish grin as she took the challenge. Luke had to move fast to counter her blows. He laughed and increased his offense. Callista matched him, move for move.

Fencing with Callista challenged Luke as well, because in any other foe, he could use the Force to sense emotional states, to detect subtle changes that foreshadowed impending moves, unexpected attacks, vicious tricks. But Callista was a disconcerting blank to him, an empty spot-which made her a worthy opponent. Although she could not sense his moves or his plans, he couldn't detect hers either.

They dueled, feeling their muscles sing with the effort, the unleashed energy and emotions, the joy of testing each other. Luke chuckled, and they continued, bright lights flashing, weapons hissing as he and Callista pressed each other. The mock battle went on for the better part of an hour.

Callista had an open, enthralled expression on her face, overjoyed to recapture some part of her former Jedi identity. She had not used a lightsaber since she had come back to life in this new body, and now-though Luke could sense no more of the Force touching her-she had regained an important piece of self-confidence.

Energy blades crossed, they looked into each other's eyes, pressing with all their strength, neither yielding. A complete stalemate. Sweat beaded on Luke's forehead, and he finally broke their locked gaze and stepped back, switching off his lightsaber. Callista also shut hers down.


Darksaber


If Luke as of 12 ABY isn't stronger than a relatively average Jedi Knight from the Clone Wars who lacks a "Master's perception" of the Jedi arts then it's sincerely doubtful that Luke by this time is more powerful than the greatest Jedi Master of all time.


Spoiler:

@MasterCilghal wrote:
Relativity to Luke and subsequent scaling 






One of Kyp’s greatest assets when it comes to his raw power is his stated relativity to Luke Skywalker as of early stages of the Vong invasion. Later iterations of Luke do outclass Kyp by a rather significant margin, but I think it’s clear that  Durron by the time of rebel dream is comparable to the Luke who manipulated a dovin basal in the early stages of the war, or at the very least the amount of power Luke was drawing on in that specific instance,the novel in fact describes him as drawing on the force more deeply then he had in years (link ) which considering the amount of effort required, the state in which he was left afterwards and the overall effects on his body would probably mean close to to his full power. This is further supported by several statements. For example, Jedi knight Skidder considers the two comparable in power: 


Agents of chaos 1 wrote:‘But there were other Jedi Knights, as powerful as Skywalker in Skidder’s estimation, who took issue with some of the Master’s teachings. Jedi Master Kyp Durron, for one.

Or else Tahiri, who thinks Kyp should have been sent to take down Nyax had it been a matter of power or skill, which strongly indicates he’s at least second after him by the time of rebel dream: 

Rebel Dream wrote:‘"Yes, I do." Tahiri didn't sound apologetic or contrite. "But if it were just a matter of skills, or power for that matter, you'd be trying to send Kyp Durron, wouldn't you?"’


Lastly, Kyp himself considers himself stronger than that Luke after achieving a famous feat against a dovin basal, which ended with him being less exhausted, despite the feat taking place in the middle of a space battle. Kyp uses the feat as proof that he’s more powerful than Luke, something he considers definitive and unquestionable: 

Rebel Dream wrote:Luke Skywalker had done this once, a couple of years ago. He'd mentioned it to the other Jedi. No one else had tried it because it had exhausted Luke to the point of collapse, and Jedi were seldom in a position to survive a technique that tired them so completely.

[...]

And he didn't think he'd be as terribly drained as Luke by the technique. He was stronger in the Force than Luke Skywalker.
He'd known that almost since they'd met - that he had more pure power than the legendary Jedi Master. But this was, perhaps, the first time he'd been able to say it to himself without a little thrill of pride. He was just stronger, and that was all. It usually didn't matter. Now it did.

 While Kyp is obviously arrogant and might be overestimating himself (all indications are against it in this specific passage) this comparison would not make any sense if Kyp were magnitudes below that iteration of Luke. After all, every character mentioned previously have been able to sense Luke’s power. For instance, here’s how Jacen describes it:


Destiny's way wrote:Utterly confused, Jacen stretched out through the Force. First he sensed the figure in white as a respected uncle - then abruptly as a powerful depth, blazing in the Force like a star gone nova.

And how he sees Kyp:

Ylesia wrote:When you looked at Kyp Durron, you know you were seeing an enormously powerful weapon. If only Jacen didn’t know how erratic that weapon had been.’

As seen above, this description it does fit with the usual depiction of an incredibly powerful jedi master that we’re given of Luke, of whom all characters in the story have an extremely high opinion. Yet, despite this, Kyp is consistently compared to Luke and held in similarly high regard, by members of the Skywalker lineage no less. Having said that, let’s take a look at what Luke has achieved and why Kyp’s relativity to him is so impressive. First of all, by the time of the Vong war, Luke was described as growing ever more in touch with the force


By the time the Yuuzhan Vong invaded the galaxy, Luke was a true Jedi Master, growing ever more in touch with the Force. His struggle against the extragalactic invaders would redefine Luke’s life and even his view of the Force itself as he learned from his own experience as well as his niece’s and nephews’ growth as Jedi.
Source: https://web.archive.org/web/20081228094650/http://wizards.com/default.asp?x=swminis/article/universepreview10

As for Kyp scaling to Luke, starwars.com makes it pretty clear that Kyp is Luke's inferior power-wise during the Vong War. Allston himself comments on Kyp's commentary during the dovin basal feat and says that Kyp isn't as strong as Luke (link to interview) :

Aaron Allston could relate to his share of Kyp woes, as a line of reflection from the troubled Jedi was met with a flurry of Internet debate. "There's a point in Rebel Dream where Kyp is doing some self-analysis, and he concludes that he has gotten a little more mature, because he's always known that he was stronger in the Force than Luke, but now it doesn't give him any thrill of pride to realize that," explains Allston. "That was a demonstration of both the fact that Kyp is developing a little bit emotionally, but also that he's not developing as much as he thought he was, because he still holds this arrogant belief. But there's a big portion of the Star Wars audience that wants very clear answers -- I suspect it's mostly younger fans. They want absolute clarity -- like roleplaying game rules. The fact that I had written in a book that Kyp was stronger than Luke -- which I hadn't; I just put that he thought that he was -- it was a little too ambiguous for a chunk of the audience, so there was a big storm."

"One of the things is tough is that a lot of the readers of fantasy are very young. The concept of an unreliable narrator just doesn't register," offered Cunningham. "If somebody says something, they assume that it's the truth."

Allston was then deluged by questions about who would win in a fight, Luke vs. Kyp. "When people ask me do I think if Luke is stronger than Kyp, I refer them to the databank on starwars.com. Because that has the ultimate answer. If I answered it, I would providing a secondary source for an answer that doesn't require it. In competitions or combat, we don't think in terms of comparing numbers and rolling dice, even though many of us are roleplaying game writers. We think, 'What does the complete scene serve in the story?' and that pretty much dictates the course of the story."


Star Wars: Expanded Universe | Q & A with Star Wars Authors


And this is what Allston was referring to (the link is included in the interview):

Following the peace treaty that brought a formal end to the Galactic Civil War, Mara Jade and Luke Skywalker wed on Coruscant. For a galaxy undergoing seismic political change, the two represented an inspiring ideal and a powerful symbol. A former Imperial agent and the galaxy's most powerful Jedi Master had found a way beyond their past differences to find love.

Star Wars: Databank | Skywalker, Mara Jade


Anakin's bold stance and daring nature made him into a popular figure among the Jedi and New Republic. Many privately whispered that he would someday take Luke Skywalker's place as the most powerful Jedi. The bloody events of the ongoing war would indisputably provide an answer to that speculation.

Star Wars: Databank | Solo, Anakin


Note that the databank for these characters were updated for each new novel release which would mean they would apply from their conception up to the final update which was for the novel The New Jedi Order: Force Heretic I: Remnant (28 ABY). Also, the link in the interview leads to something published after the interview but the character profiles located within that publishing were written before the interview, which can be a bit confusing.


The New Jedi Order Sourcebook reiterates this as well:

SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Unknown


And as a kicker, Kyp, an ally of Luke per The New Jedi Order Sourcebook, is also below Mara:

SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Unknown

SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Unknown


As for why Luke appeared so tired after the dovin basal feat, Luke explains why some tasks can be exerting even if he isn't tapping into his full power:

Luke worked moisture into a suddenly dry mouth as he watched Builder With Vines finish his snack and swoop down for another pass. Why in the name of the Force was he taking such a terrible risk?

And it was a terrible risk. Luke could feel the danger involved, his Jedi senses tingling almost as strongly as if the threat had been aimed directly at him. Surely Builder With Vines couldn’t be that hungry. Could he?

“Offhand, I’d say he’s showing off,” Mara muttered, answering his silent question.

“For who? Us?”

“Hardly.” Mara nodded toward the wall behind Luke. “For the kid.”

Luke craned his neck to look. Balanced precariously on a stone near the Qom Jha opening, Child Of Winds was watching in utter fascination as Builder With Vines swooped over the mass of insects, his wings quivering with excitement or nervousness or envy. “Uh-oh,” Luke said. “You don’t think—?”

“I would hope he’s not that stupid,” Mara said. “But the Qom Jha have been riding him ever since we headed out on this little trip. He just might.”

Luke grimaced. “Child Of Winds, you stay where you are,” he ordered, putting Jedi firmness into his voice. “You’re not to try to do what Builder With Vines is—”

And suddenly, a terrified shriek screamed through his mind. “What—?” he gasped, his body twitching violently with the shock of the sound.

“It’s Builder With Vines,” Mara bit out, her fingers tightening around Luke’s to help maintain their balance. Luke looked down—

To a horrifying sight. Builder With Vines, his wings flapping frantically but uselessly, was struggling half-submerged in the living river flowing through the passageway. Dozens of fire creepers were already crawling across his head and wings, biting and stinging. Even as Child of Winds’s terrified cry joined Builder With Vines’s scream in Luke’s mind a hundred more of the insects crawled onto the Qom Jha, their weight forcing him still deeper beneath the flow.

There was no time to waste. Stretching out with the Force, Luke hauled Builder With Vines up and out of the flow, holding him suspended in midair. He shifted his focus to the insects, grabbing them through the Force and throwing them off him.

“Don’t bother,” Mara said quietly. “There’s nothing you can do.”

Luke bit back the reflexive impulse to deny it. He was a Jedi—there had to be something he could do.

But no. She was right … and as Builder With Vines’s mental scream died into the silence of death he let the body sink gently back into the mindless flow.

“Easy on the fingers,” Mara said softly.

With an effort, Luke turned his gaze back to her, focusing on their joined hands. His fingers were all but white where he was squeezing hers tightly in frustration. “Sorry,” he muttered, forcing himself to relax his grip.

“That’s all right,” she said. “You know, you’ve got a pretty good grip there. I thought you Jedi usually concentrated more on the mental aspects of the Force than you did in keeping in shape.”

She was trying to deflect his attention, he knew, trying to turn his thoughts away from the horror he’d just witnessed. Sympathy from Mara was a new experience all by itself; but neither words nor sympathy had a puddle’s chance of smoothing over the guilt and anger rising in his throat like a twisting sand-devil. “It’s not all right,” he snapped back at her. “I knew it was dangerous—I could have stopped him. I should have stopped him.”

“How?” Mara countered. “I mean, sure, you could have used the Force to pin him to the ceiling. But what right would you have had to do something like that?”

“What do you mean, what right?” Luke bit out. “I was the one in charge here. Their safety was my responsibility.”

“Oh, come on,” Mara said, the sympathy still there but with a tinge of scorn around the edges now. “Builder With Vines was an intelligent, responsible adult being. He knew what he was doing. He made his choice, and he suffered the consequences. If you want to start feeling guilty about mistakes, start with ones that were actually your fault.”

“Such as?” Luke growled.

For a long moment Mara gazed coolly at him, and Luke felt a sudden wave of misgiving ripple through his anger. “Such as?” Mara repeated. “Well, let’s see. Such as not moving your Jedi academy off Yavin when you first found out a really nasty dark side power was infesting the place. Such as not slapping down a tipped turbolaser like Kyp Durron the minute he started showing dark side tendencies of his own. Such as not providing adequate protection for your sister’s children against kidnapping, despite the fact it had already been tried a couple of times. Such as unilaterally declaring yourself a Jedi Master after less than ten years on the job. How long a list do you want?”

Luke tried to glare at her. But there was no strength behind the glare, and with a grimace of embarrassment he dropped his gaze from her face. “You’re right,” he sighed. “You’re absolutely right. I don’t know, Mara. It’s been … I don’t know.”

“Let me guess,” she said, the sarcasm gone from her voice again. “Life as a Jedi has been a lot foggier than you ever expected it to be. You’ve had trouble understanding what you’re supposed to do, or how you’re supposed to behave. You’ve been gaining tremendous power in the Force, but more often than not you’ve been paralyzed with fear that you’re going to use it the wrong way. Am I getting warm?”

Luke stared at her. “Yes,” he said, not quite believing it. How had she known? “That’s it exactly.”

“And yet,” she continued, “sometime in the past couple of months, things have suddenly become clearer. Not that you’ve had any great lightning-bolt insights, but a lot of the hesitation has disappeared and you’ve found it easier to stay on what seems in hindsight to have been the right path.”

“Right again,” Luke said. “Though there have also been one or two pretty impressive revelations,” he added, thinking back. “The vision on Tierfon that got me in touch with Karrde just in time to hear about you being trapped here, for one.” He eyed her closely. “You know what’s been going on?”

“Yes, it’s been only slightly more visible than blindingly obvious,” she said dryly. “Certainly to me. Probably to Leia and Corran and some of your other Jedi students, too. Possibly to everyone else in the New Republic.”

“Oh, thank you,” Luke said, trying to match her tone and not entirely succeeding. “That makes me feel so much better.”

“Good. It was supposed to.” Mara took a deep breath, and Luke could sense her reluctance. “Look, you’re the one in the middle of this. You’re the one who has to make the final call on what’s going on. But if you want my reading, it all started with that little jaunt you took out to Byss about nine years ago. Where you faced—whatever it was you faced out there.”

Luke shivered. “The reborn Emperor.”

“Or whatever,” Mara said with an odd touch of impatience. “Personally, I’m not convinced it was really him. But that’s beside the point. The point was that you decided—stupidly and rather arrogantly, in my opinion—that the best way to stop him would be for you to pretend to join up and let him teach you some of his dark side techniques.”

“But I didn’t really go over to the dark side,” Luke protested, trying to remember those dark days. “I mean, I don’t think I did.”

Mara shook her head. “Debatable; but it almost doesn’t matter. One way or the other, you still willingly dabbled in it. And from that point on, it colored everything you did.”

One of Master Yoda’s pronouncements floated up from his memory. If once you start down the dark path, his old teacher had warned, forever will it dominate your destiny. “It did, too, didn’t it?” he murmured, half to himself, as all the errors and mistakes and, yes, the arrogance of the past nine years rose accusingly before his eyes. “What was I thinking?”

“You weren’t thinking,” Mara said, an odd mixture of impatience and compassion swirling together in her voice and emotions. “You were reacting, trying to save everyone and do everything. And in the process you came within a split blaster bolt of destroying yourself.”

“So what changed?” he asked. “What happened?”

Mara’s eyes narrowed fractionally. “You telling me you don’t know?”

Luke grimaced, wondering that he hadn’t seen it earlier. That critical moment off Iphigin, as he and Han had prepared for combat against the pirate gang Han had deduced was on its way. The moment when he’d seen the vision of Emperor Palpatine and Exar Kun laughing at him … “No, I know,” he conceded. “I made a decision to stop using the power of the Force so much.”

And suddenly, through that mixture of compassion and impatience came a wave of something completely unexpected. An overpowering flood of relief. “You got it,” Mara said quietly. “Finally.”

Luke shook his head. “But why?” he demanded. “The power’s obviously there, available for a Jedi to use. Is it just because I touched the dark side that using it is so bad for me?”

“That’s probably part of it,” Mara said. “But even if you’d never done that you’d still have run into trouble. You ever been in a hullplate-shaping plant?”

“Ah—no,” Luke said, blinking at the sudden change of topic.

“How about an ore-crushing facility?” she suggested. “Lando’s had a couple of them at one time or another—you must have visited at least one of them.”

“I’ve seen the one on Varn, yes,” Luke said, the mention of Lando’s name throwing a sudden damper on the cautiously growing feeling of excitement at these new revelations. Mara’s relationship with Lando …

“Fine,” Mara said, either missing the change in Luke’s emotions or else ignoring it. “Sometimes small songbirds set up their nests in the upper supports of those buildings. Did you hear any of them singing when you were there?”

Luke smiled tightly. Again, it was so obvious. “Of course not,” he said. “It was way too noisy in there to hear anything that quiet.”

Mara smiled back. “Pretty obvious, isn’t it, once you see it. The Force isn’t just about power, like most non-Jedi think. It’s also about guidance: everything from those impressive future visions to the more subtle real-time warnings I sometimes think of as a danger sense. Trouble is, the more you tap into it for raw power, the less you’re able to hear its guidance over the noise of your own activity.”

“Yes,” Luke murmured, so many puzzles suddenly coming clear. He had often wondered how it was he could rebuild Darth Vader’s personal fortress while Master Yoda had become winded doing something as relatively simple as lifting an X-wing from the Dagobah swamp. Clearly, Yoda had understood the choices far better than his upstart pupil.

And even in the short time since Luke had decided to try that same choice he’d already seen glimpses of why Yoda had chosen that path. Subtle bits of guidance, sometimes occurring as little more than vague and almost subconscious feelings, had been showing up more and more: protecting him from a quick capture back at the Cavrilhu Pirates’ asteroid base, or quietly prompting him to accept Child Of Winds’s assistance, which had led directly to this cavern and the pride-motivated aid of the Qom Jha. “I was on Iphigin a couple of months ago helping Han with some negotiations,” he said. “The Diamala at the talks told Han that Jedi who used as much power as I did always ended up slipping over to the dark side.”

“They may be right,” Mara agreed. “Not all Dark Jedi come from botched training, you know. Some of them slip into it all by themselves.”

“Not a very pleasant thought,” Luke said soberly, thinking about his Yavin academy. Of his successes at Jedi instruction there, and his failures. “Especially given that I started teaching under dark side influence.”


Vision of the Future


By the time of the Vong War, Luke isn't tapping into his full power for things such as the dovin basal manipulation like he was in the past due to a fear of falling to the dark side and no longer being able to hear the guidance from the Force. Luke is exhausted from the dovin basal since he isn't tapping into the Force fully to max out his raw power; instead he is drawing on the bare minimum required to complete the task similar to Yoda which tires him since he isn't drawing on the Force to the point where it makes the task easy for him and is instead drawing on the Force to the point where he can just complete the task. There isn't anything substantiating that the power Luke employed was anywhere near the full power he can bring to bear. With this established, it would follow that you cannot scale Kyp to Luke's full power, rather you can only scale Kyp to the power Luke employed for the feat which Kyp already replicated himself. The New Jedi Order Sourcebook supports this as well:

SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Unknown

SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Unknown


Per The Essential Chronology, Kyp is also less powerful than Luke (and Leia) during The New Rebellion (17 ABY), so from then through The New Jedi Order: Force Heretic I: Remnant (28 ABY), Luke is distinctively more powerful than Kyp.

SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) 92248507_227543655027209_5235020592100409344_n


As you stated yourself, later iterations of Luke after The Unifying Force far outclass Kyp which means Luke's growth rate would be greater than Kyp's, and considering that Luke is more powerful than Kyp as of 17 ABY and 28 ABY then he should most definitely be considerably more powerful than Kyp as of The New Jedi Order: The Unifying Force (29 ABY).

As for the Malgus point, it's largely irrelevant without Kyp being connected to it and therefore not as pertinent as the other points and I don't have the characters to address it in this post but I do plan on addressing it in my next post regardless.


Conclusion

Outlander > Vaylin >> Arcann >>> Act III HoT >> Revan Reborn >> SF Malak >> Freedon Nadd >> Naga Sadow > 67 BBY Plagueis ~ Tenebrous > ... > DoE Bane > Orbalisk Bane > non-orbalisk RoT Bane > PoD Bane >>> Qordis >> Githany >> Korriban student >>> Dark Lord >> Sith Adept >>> 5 ABY Kyle Katarn < ? < 43 ABY Kyle Katarn ~ 43 ABY Kyp Durron > ? > 29 ABY Kyp Durron

While Katarn was obviously a neophyte as of 5 ABY there's nothing suggesting that the training and experience that he received after the fact propelled him from being vastly sub-Bane to being above the Outlander. To suggest such a level of growth would mean Katarn started off as being greatly sub-Bane then grew to the point where he was above Bane and then grew past the Banite line up to Tenebrous and then surpassed the vast gap between Tenebrous and Nadd and then surpassed the vast gap between Nadd and Malak and then surpassed the vast gap between Malak and Revan and then surpassed the vast gap between Revan and the Act III HoT and then surpassed the vast gap between the Act III HoT and Arcann and then surpassed the vast gap between Arcann and Vaylin and then surpassed gap between the Outlander and Vaylin and then grew past the Outlander. Then after that, you would also have to show that 29 ABY Kyp - an inferior of 43 ABY Kyp who is comparable to 43 ABY Katarn - is above the Outlander as well.

Luke doesn't scale above Yoda from his fight with DE Sheev and TUF Kyp isn't as powerful as Luke per starwars.com and The New Jedi Order Sourcebook and also doesn't scale to Luke from the dovin basal feat due to how Luke uses the Force.

@MasterCilghal Il tuo turno.


Last edited by Praxis on May 5th 2020, 4:16 pm; edited 5 times in total (Reason for editing : Scaling chains were messed up due to bbcode)
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SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Empty Re: SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

on May 4th 2020, 3:51 am
I obviously went above the character limit for this post but Cilghal and I came to an agreement that he will receive the number of characters over the limit I was for this post (4895) for his next post. Also, when I initially posted this all my scaling chains were messed up due to how bbcode works but it's fixed now.

Tag for those who wanted it: @IG @HellfireUnit @Nute_Chethray @xolthol @EmperorCaedus @The lord of hunger
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SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Empty Re: SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

on May 4th 2020, 11:14 am
Great post
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SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Empty Re: SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

on May 4th 2020, 11:43 am
nice post
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SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Empty Re: SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

on May 4th 2020, 11:47 am
Gewd post
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SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Empty Re: SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

on May 4th 2020, 5:45 pm
Great post
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SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Empty Re: SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

on May 5th 2020, 3:04 am
@Praxis Great post
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SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Empty Re: SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

on June 26th 2020, 2:59 am
Message reputation : 100% (9 votes)


"Facts, exact numbers, reassurance… a Jedi seeks not these things." - Kyp Durron













1) Katarn and the brotherhood of losers.





In Dark Forces: Jedi Knight we see Kyle Katarn embark on a spiritual journey where he flow-walks into the past and witnesses the creation of the Thought Bomb by the Brotherhood of Darkness. He sensed the power of the Sith adepts creating the weapon and was deemed a novice in comparison.

I’m not convinced the comparison Katarn draws between himself and the Brotherhood Sith Lords is necessarily one of force power. In the quote you brought up, Katarn is experiencing a sith ritual, one which involves the creation of a powerful weapon by linking highly trainedminds. It’s obvious someone like Katarn, whose knowledge and skill with the force at this point are almost nonexistent would be incapable of taking part in such a ritual and would only end up dying in attempting to do so. He’s a novice in that he does not share their force knowledge or mastery, but that in no way tells us he’s vastly outclassed by them in power or in a combat scenario. Even his comparison to LaTor, whom Kyle seems to hold as more powerful than himself, is likely an example of his lackluster knowledge, given he thinks that’s why he isn’t killed by the thought bomb, whereas it’s made clear that performing such a ritual is not a demonstration of raw power. 



SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Image010

Katarn’s feats, even prior to discovering his force sensitivity, clearly do not support the idea of him being capped below average force sensitives who as you correctly argued, scale far below peak Bane, who in turn simply doesn’t compare with PT high tiers. Katarn, on the other hand, has stalemated the likes of Boba Fett, who has contended with PT high tiers such as Kenobi or Windu, both of whom scale above Bane, and easily defeated jedi masters like Rahm Kota. As such, I have a hard time not seeing even this iteration of Katarn absolutely annihilating those guys in an actual fight. Just like Boba, he’s a far more skilled fighter.

Months after the evacuation of Yavin 4, he went after General Mohc's automated Dark Troopers. Katarn followed the trail from a bombed-out rebel outpost on Talay to Mohc's ship the Arc Hammer. Along the way he rescued Crix Madine from prison and battled Boba Fett to a stand still.
The New Essential Guide to Characters

If I understand correctly, your argument hinges on the idea that Katarn can’t grow enough to reach the Outlander, or even Bane, but has not been established in any way. It’s notable how poor Katarn’s knowledge of the force was at the time of Dark forces. Earlier in the novella, not long before the duel with Jerec and the vision, Katarn is amazed by a showing of basic precognition from Luke Skywalker, and it’s heavily implied he could not replicate it, considering how he and Jan had to follow Luke’s lead: 


Each of the Imperial ships had its own fire-control center, and all of those centers had been slaved to a computer aboard the Destroyer. While this strategy made maximum use of the Task Force’s weaponry, it also created a pattern that Luke could feel.
The trick was to direct his mind toward understanding the individual subpatterns that contributed to the whole but to do so without conscious thought, because conscious thought took time and led to doubt. That being the case, Luke "sensed" where to direct his ship, fired when instinct told him to do so, and wove his way through a maze of outgoing laser fire. The Moldy Crow, still in one piece and still on Luke’s tail, followed behind.
Jan, her hands dancing between controls, spoke from the side of her mouth. “Did you see that? It’s as if he knows which way to go.”
Kyle, who had made a good deal of progress where his own talents were concerned, nodded admiringly. “That’s because he does know which way to go. Stay on his tail.

Given how much of a prodigy Katarn is established to be it follows his growth from that point on would be rather significant. This is shown through his defeat of Desann. At the beginning of the game, when Katarn’s force connection was in a similar state as in Dark forces, Desann is able to choke him casually. Desann’s power then increases “fourfold” after drawing on the residual energies of the valley of the Jedi. Note that the use of such an expression indicates an enormous increase (see Lucas saying Anakin would have become twice as powerful as the emperor to indicate, again, a sizable gap). Katarn then proceeds, in order to rescue Jan, to reconnect with the force, elevating him to his former level of power, that being the peak of his jedi self, which he likens to years of re-training. And it is through this power, and by later overcoming his fears and obtaining greater mastery, that he’s able to overcome Desann in a furious duel, despite Desann even having the aid of a dark side nexus. 


(See 2:27:16 and 3:04:47) 


SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) XEMpAVB3SexNAUnkh93xPf94Jv5Zm0e0eQiXNZS1ZaFkxHOmocBFc4tTxDWQjBN2V57JoodD2w4kgsm9pyR8mN54UYM8KJjx9kRnvq-FUd4AyXOEbgvY8G3pEPpA9lafhTFgIBkk


SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Yy2v71O6kyFRaBHBMAWeLY5MdG-saSoeygwutqzqkoBIwapfZ1Uardl1_yaApmczxWvFVx6ZJdpZVYwIXovVr-JwAhqjiTrOJZdd7cUiKMmX7A8w_eHN-T2A7n3999JlhrUA-hmh
SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) T5RhUSAcm_5bmfgg-wqCjNbM4qH1So04-dcSwlZHasOsRg8zQ1Rp2EdF2A3t1v3HEIZe3IUgsSqu1UYVgCta1q1KzQXeJBu7IaD-aLHM8N-8jMl7S-c9hvsTOjQxQna0-C46ixU2




The Jedi Academy on Yavin IV stands out from the other sites mentioned above due to its proximity to a major source of dark side of the Force.
Jedi Academy Training Manual


As a Jedi, Katarn is specifically stated to have left the academy right after Luke’s dealings with Exar Kun. 

SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) A9L20NypmiNv7-tuFsdv3bQSjL2ujvCBlHpTmgE1bFS2IOX8fEbNgBT7EDHDtPvKCm-VPfwZWSSEaE2Rl-C2njO71Sx8Iow7uNrOepqPJHzRodQSPorKQ_wgVW0e4FHwS3gF1l5F

Despite all of this, Kyp surpasses all of them, including Katarn “by light-years” in about a week of training. And Kyp still has several years to grow afterwards. Having said that, I won’t go further in detail on Kyp’s growth, as later rebuttals will show why the scaling chain simply doesn’t hold. 


Of course, my best was nothing compared to Kyp Durron’s best. Kyp’s growth in the Force was nothing shy of incredible. In just over a week he surpassed anything the rest of us were doing by light-years.

I, Jedi 

But what we get is JA Kyp (1 week of training)>>>Jedi Katarn>Valley Desann>>>>base Desann>DF Katarn. 

Luke believes that Gaalan may have been a match for Kyp or Kyle which implies that he believes they are comparable duelists.

While I agree that Luke is a reliable judge for Kyp’s and Katarn’s skills and that the quote does imply the two are equals, it is only referring to their skills as duelists, which is evident by the fact that Luke only describes Galaan’s moves (subtle,sophisticated blows”) before he goes on to compare him to Katarn and Kyp in this regard, and even after. At best, it would include their speed in combat but not their overall force augmentation (and even that is suspect insight). It’s also important to note that Luke doesn’t get a true measure of Galaan’s force abilities until later in fight, when the Sith Lord blocks a telekinetic exertion from Luke, causing him to look rueful (“disappointed”). But even if the two were comparable in force augmentation, which this quote doesn’t prove, there can still be a huge gap between them in power, as seen many times in the lore (Luke vs UnuThul, Dooku vs Kenobi…).
In a comparison of pure feats, Kyp comes off as vastly more impressive than Katarn, who can hold a huge rock while somewhat weakened. It isn’t bad of course, but compared to the dovin basal feat is rather pathetic. Of course this is Katarn before his prime but he would have to go up several tiers in order to bridge the gap. 



(See 4:50:53)


Considering that Kyp is mainly a duelist and so is Katarn, I think it's fair to say that they are comparable combatants

Citation needed for Kyp being primarily a duelist. As a matter of fact, early Kyp, is stated to have focused almost exclusively on his “force skills”. 

The quote is saying that Kyp would lack the focus to drive a ship out of the core of a gas giant that was going to be used to exterminate the Empire due to the dark side intentions behind the act. He doesn't consider himself any less powerful than his amped younger self, rather just that he wouldn't be able to focus on committing acts with dark side intent. There is no reason to use this quote to gimp 40 ABY Kyp as inferior to earlier iterations which I think you tried to do with your last point and is instead just less likely to use his power to commit dark side acts.

That’s not really what I was arguing in my post. Yes, Kyp is equally as powerful as his teenage self, which might even be his full potential, but the point is that  Kyp during the Vong war is a far more aggressive combatant, someone who would be willing to crush all emotions towards his allies and leaving them to die just to accomplish his goals, as the DJ quote can attest, and would therefore be more dangerous in a fight when compared to a Kyp who, while equally powerful, might consider unleashing his raw power against Outlander one such negative act. 

Both Naga Sadow and Exar Kun possessed the ability to extend their corporeal life by draining energies released during the death of others. In 67 BBY, Darth Plagueis concludes with certainty that the fact they could do this means either they were "genuinely more powerful than him" or the galactic dark side tilt empowered them to be more powerful than him. Either option makes Sadow and Kun more powerful than Plagueis as of then. Plagueis at this time is repeatedly indicated to be at least approaching Darth Tenebrous in power, whereas Freedon Nadd was far more powerful than Sadow, which implies that Nadd was far more powerful than Tenebrous.

It is unfortunate however, that Kyp also has access to that specific power, as he was taught directly from the likes of Exar Kun, and is confirmed to have learned it by the JA sourcebook, same with Gantoris (who is far less powerful than Kyp according to the same source): 
SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) ZAtY95jAN34V1ZM2VZYBxbb1AVkKMiT9xIUVvnRPNO2M-xfIaeHnREelhEw9Yes0njD2zon2p4jD4euZyBwloqaEYESvK70vLEvgQkmu3pGXn46IVtAg6DNA3PTSAZB3tKRj5E_M


SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) 3uuVGgvGDabWrPmB1SeOqyxwuRGXe2QJ92lULsLgcttkn68mgUxdW0dLm2FAC7n6a7Gqpq5IeS-bWBX708-9ua2i6ZB-7dlBTBRAV0emQ781BhPig7Kp0B2gQVy6JDIzXMYymdjW


SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) AF-V8C_0_S5PXfxv3LvZ4Ks9GTTOzklltv1PNtc8TiVRa0AtuWpKtrAH4dQergJcwNfezqAI1WWCHeRkr4RgLfVqdmhtXE52AxvRXGxlZx4T3UQoVmsjhUrm-1Qn-CsQ343eOPx4


Note that, while Gantoris may not have been taught to use the power to the same degree as Kun, that being using it to increase their lifespan, Kyp likely possesses this knowledge, as was literally taught “everything” Kun knew: 

Inside that temple Kyp had received his initiation into the Sith teachings, while Dorsk 81 had lain in an unnatural coma against the wall. The spirit of Exar Kun had meant to destroy the cloned Jedi student on a whim, as a gesture of power, but Kyp had stopped him, insisting instead that the Sith Lord teach him everything. He had seen things that still left yammering nightmares in the depths of his mind.

Champions of the force

As an addendum, the fact that Kun’s knowledge allowed Kyp to overcome Luke and is completely unknown to the likes of Vader adds credence to this. For reference, Luke learned a great deal from the Emperor in DE, knowledge noted to have been taught to Vader as well: 

Luke is, perhaps, learning more about the Dark Side than he wants to know. The more the Emperor reveals, the more Luke is repulsed. The sheer depravity of the man would shake the soul of the strongest Jedi.

But Luke must continually remind himself of his vow to conquer the Dark Side from within.

Luke's father understood these secrets, these powers, and willingly used them to crush and enslave multitudes of Galactic citizens.

DE endnotes


Vader likely possesses all the Banite teachings (note that Vader is a Banite sith): 

Darth Bane's Rule of Two was a keystone of the Sith Order for centuries. The Battle of Ruusan, nearly a millennium ago, would have ended the Sith Order had Darth Bane not reconstituted it as a diarchy operating from the shadows. His writings became part of the Sith Archives passed down from master to apprentice for generations.

Book Of Sith: Secrets From The Dark Side


So it is highly unlikely Vader wouldn’t have any familiarity with a basic application of drain life energy, yet he would be utterly helpless before Kun, as was Luke. Of course, Kyp Durron as a Jedi is unlikely to make use of these powers in a combat situation, but that doesn’t mean he can’t use them. 
As such, assuming Plagueis is right about the ancients, Kyp, and mind you, perhaps even Gantoris, are also more powerful than Tenebrous. To which degree will be established later, as I reaffirm my original case, but for now the rest of your scaling chain falls apart, regardless of my previous rebuttals, which served more to establish Kyp and Katarn’s respective skills. Likewise, i won’t touch on the rest of the scaling, as reaffirming my original argument will be more than enough to show that not only did Katarn grew significantly, but that he and Kyp are clearly not in the same tier. I do, however, have a minor nitpick. 

While only in his early twenties, a weakened Hero defeats a more powerful Vitiate than the one Revan Reborn lost to, scaling him far above Malak, Nadd, Sadow, and Tenebrous.

I don’t get why the Vitiate as of Act 3 is more powerful than the Vitiate we see in the Revan novel. I might be missing something, but the argument I’ve seen is that Scourge is, in Revan’s opinion, can help him in defeating Vitiate, in stark contrast to Scourge believing he would be helpless before the emperor in act 3. However, Revan’s assessment is proven completely wrong once he faces Vitiate. We know Scourge is completely outclassed by Darth Nyriss, who herself is “infinitelyless powerful than the emperor. All we can really gather is that Scourge grows from being an ant next to the Emperor… to still being an ant. 

2) Luke Skywalker and Callista Ming





The crux of your argument relies upon DE Luke erroneously scaling over ROTS Yoda/Sheev and therefore over Malgus because of the "greatest adversary" quote.

This is the crux of the argument yes, but it’s within the context of several DE statements about Luke’s power that the quote assumes the meaning I gave it.

Your justification for what you want the quote to imply is that "greatest adversary" is mentioned following a sentence referring to Luke and Sheev's lightsaber duel and therefore greatest adversary means most powerful adversary but Luke is Sheev's greatest adversary regardless of their duel due to being largely responsible for destroying the Empire and Sheev's death in ROTJ. 

The fact that the quote is within the context of a duel is more than enough for the quote to address force power. Here’s why: let’s imagine, for example, that a fencer is about to face an opponent in a duel and calls said individual his greatest opponent. Would you assume he’s talking about something other than fencing, even if said opponent has caused him trouble in other ways in the past? 
And Yoda or even Windu have caused Sheev a great deal of trouble: he spent decades preparing himself for a confrontation yet both have come very close to ending his rule. Luke, on the other hand, would have been helpless had it not been for his father’s intervention. Even without the quote however, all of Luke’s power accolades around this time period, which you haven’t addressed, speak to him being already one of the most powerful jedi in history, one in particular implies he’s already approaching Yoda’s level. 

Also, Sheev hasn't been in a legitimate lightsaber duel for roughly 30 years, and considering that he only employed a lightsaber to humiliate Jedi it's likely his skills atrophied since there weren't any more Jedi to humiliate and would've been a useless skill for him to maintain.

Sidious as of ROTJ is noted to be as skilled as Yoda and Mace Windu as a duelist, so it’s heavily doubtful that by DE he declined significantly. In fact, it’s very possible he might have increased in skill, as he obtained a new, younger body. 


SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) B3V2-JqWx0p18oUdDxqFcCFLRKKmX2TqEYmYQL_rOCJBURSLKp9bXTAU5qyOHClXIexDyqtMLPnEcMYDkHiLMd19VRDXus1GhVgg9ufOaNAD4mW9Lzev9oVHjuMZBR6iqnI8NNuY


The gap between Sheev's dueling skills and his Force powers have always been apparent when you consider that he was disarmed in his fights with Windu, Yoda, and Luke but then matched or overwhelmed them with his Force powers, so Luke disarming Sheev isn't unprecedented and he did it with an amp from Leia to boot so it isn't indicative of him being more powerful than Sheev or his previous opponents. 

An amp which has been described as elementaryand that Luke was not even able to sense, so its effect was likely minimal. As for the latter point, the gap between his dueling skills and force power as of ROTS is minimal: both Windu and Yoda were competing quite well with him in power, not to mention that neither Windu nor Yoda are confirmed to be better duelists than Palpatine. On the contrary, the outcome of a duel between combatants on their level is only decided by circumstances, implying equality: 

SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) 8pVOZHBqVkQk4tyJzn5FRz3qreHTRFTPjOrYlmW6dQ9DtlW0aSRS4fzP9nWW06PJO1u6b0gTxjmVK55_OD0P6cYOKRivwSIeYTiNprv3CI9qzFK0qMTeyHlBt5zjKuzQ2O7Ui0An


Unlike Windu and Yoda, Luke had no hope of defeating Sheev through conventional means and could only do so through a Force Harmony with Leia and Anakin Solo. Essentially, disarming an out of practice Sheev in a duel while amped doesn't scale Luke above earlier iterations of Sheev or Windu or Yoda since those fights came down to Force power rather than lightsaber ability and Luke in DE was demonstrably inferior to Sheev when it came to Force power.

I don’t really understand what you’re trying to say here. True, Sheev’s full power can only be unleashed through his force storms but DE Sidious is immensely more powerful than his ROTS iteration. The idea of him operating on that level in a duel or even higher is not at all unbelievable. On the contrary, it’s pretty much confirmed by the above quote. And even then, my intent was not to scale Luke above Sidious’ full power, but merely to use this showing to support Luke’s accolades. 

She is also canonically capped below Yoda as of ROTS and with the ascendant dark side and lack of combat training after the destruction of the Jedi I think it's safe to say that she probably didn't experience mega-growth between ROTS and 18 BBY when she transferred her consciousness to the Eye of Palpatine.

As far as I’m aware, Callista transferring her consciousness into a computer in no way prevents her from growing in power. We know from past examples, such as Lord Dramath or Karness Muur that one can grow in power despite being locked in an object (see here for the argument). And Callista’s potential isn’t lacking either, in fact there’s strong indication she’s most certainly beyond average. Sources note that she displayed an undeniablestrength in the force, and call her a powerful force user”. Keep in mind that these quotes are referencing Callista’s childhood, so it’s likely they’re talking about potential rather than power. Contrast this, for example, with Dyon Stadd, a Jedi candidate who lacked significant potential. Secondly, No prisoners takes place in 22 BBY, which means that Callista, at the time, had about a year and a half of actual jedi training, so it would follow that by 18 BBY she should already be significantly better. 
While I’m personally not sure on this, it’s arguable Callista is not capped below either Yoda or Sidious, due to the fact that, according the the ERC, she was part of another jedi order. 
As for the dark side cloud, in no way does it prevent a Jedi from growing in power (see Jax Pavan, for example). 


 SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Aw9k1mJTQSc1iKd-RPAu6jVOoPsgH0akHDNzgIkI2vtexwFGzv3SuDbtXB6WY_lH8o5DTxb_d6BZXfhr3chg_cT4KHB5MvGf5nd_F6DQXZeKN5VFrAyFlVeH6fEcxlhSdw2UtH8r


SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) QsOFt_t6Adnhu4C45lywoKVD-z8aRzA2Xb1spa4e64mpMsv1vszs89_CMtP8QitcXpCL7Bu1maCwqBsmqCpU5er79UThJ-FKvuRi58MZ40JUvrVwYEfl5lx4DS8PmfB-6NJS4lfR


SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) YzCnF4laf5UG2fnvD2FGt_O7QJ6G_ty2r9IbjTlNrze1FN1X1olruQiuO3__OluuJEGyHrE1hB7hnQCCO3dnRM4SBt7fMirFFjszpNWrn02Qf88TcLDeV5mmW7rHkQh8Rg0YZjHz


SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) EpYzSHtNctuHBsxkxMoUfg7DMpBoi5qC9pc2bF-JYSuUwM7n3dN3wMtSQ-wKSNxDooeLJq_GszdBzpzZ-MYMtftUarl_xuT-fik3p2t-yyF20LGbpDx-mfQS3txvVQrxFoXGBKUH


Fate of the Jedi: Allies wrote:He felt fairly confident that they would be able to restrain Dyon for a while. At least Dyon wasn’t a trained Jedi Knight, nor was his ability with the Force particularly strong. Luke was grateful for small favors.

Callista's commentary seems to imply that she's not a Master of the Jedi arts, and considering that they are evenly matched later on as shown below, neither is Luke:

Additionally, it's stated that in The Essential Chronolgy that Callista is equal to Luke in Force power as of 12 ABY which is after Dark Empire. It should be noted that Callista was stuck in a computer since 18 BBY so she would most likely be about as powerful if not weaker by 12 ABY.

Looking at the context of the quote I think it’s made evidently clear neither Callista nor Luke are talking about their raw power, but rather the amount of training they’ve received and therefore their mastery over the force. In Callista’s case, she notes how spending 5 years with her master was not nearly enough for her to gather the necessary knowledge, but it was still greater than Luke’s. Her lacking a master’s perception would likewise be a reference to her inability to teach Luke like a true jedi master would. 

Children of the Jedi wrote:He felt the rueful chuckle of her laughter.
“It used to drive me crazy. But he said, Every student is obliged to make one thousand eighty major mistakes. The sooner you make them, the sooner you will not have to make them anymore. I asked him for a list. He said, Thinking there’s a list is mistake number four.”
How long were you with him?”
“Five years. Not nearly long enough.”
“No,” said Luke, thinking about the few weeks he’d spent on Dagobah. He sighed again. “I just wish some of those one thousand eighty mistakes didn’t involve teaching students. Teaching Jedi. Transmitting power, or the ability to use the Force. My ignorance—my own inexperience—cost one of my students his life already, and threw another one into the arms of the dark side and caused havoc in the galaxy I don’t even want to think about. The whole thing—the Academy, and bringing back the skills of the Jedi—is too important for … for ‘Learn While You Teach.’ That’s …” He hesitated, hating to say it of his teacher but knowing he had to. “That’s the mistake Ben made, when he taught my father”

The point here is that Luke’s inexperience and gaps in his training  have caused him a lot of problems in setting up his jedi academy and at teaching his students. As the quotes I posted in my opener can attest, Luke is already an extremely powerful jedi a few years before the events of CoJT, arguably one of the greatest in history, but his knowledge and mastery are still scarce, just like Callista’s, but to an even greater extent (the same reason for why Kyp turned against Luke and embraced Kun’s teachings). It’s interesting how in that same passage Luke implies he’s now powerful enough to defeat Palpatine: 

If Ben hadn’t taught your father,” said Callista softly, “your father probably wouldn’t have been strong enough to kill Palpatine … nor would he have been in a position to do so. You couldn’t have done it,” she added.
“Not then, no.” He’d never thought of it that way.

Furthermore, this supports my initial argument, as Callista not having achieved her potential under master Djinn and therefore having so little formal training means she had plenty of time to do so afterwards, while trapped in the Eye of Palpatine’s computer. 

Lastly, peak Fate of the Jedi Luke, while accessing her memories, still marvelsat Callista’s power: 

Conviction wrote:Luke could see a kaleidoscope of images, all drawn from Callista’s past, much of it with him, some of it from more ancient times. He marveled at her strength, the power it had required her to survive the loss of her original body, the strength it took her to remain partly Callista in the face of this overwhelming alien force.

In fact, as the quote above can attest, her achievement of transferring her consciousness into a computer is extremely impressive and has only ever been replicated by Abeloth, which makes perfect sense considering how essence transfer is generally considered an extremely difficult ability to pull-off, certainly well beyond the scope of an average jedi. 

Apocalypse wrote:“Of course,” Saba replied. “But Abeloth entered the computer core and removed it—along with all our other backdoorz. She controlz all systemz in the Temple now.”
Tahiri’s eyes widened in alarm—or perhaps it was excitement. With humans, Saba could never tell.
“When you say entered,” Tahiri said, “do you mean Abeloth actually moved her Force presence into the circuits, like Callista did aboard the Eye of Palpatine’s computer?”

So no, Callista was never portrayed as an average jedi, at least not in the New Republic era. 

Callista and Luke are also equal in sabers as Callista matched him "move for move" and they "pressed with all their strength" and were locked in a "complete stalemate".

You seem to forget an important element of Callista’s character around this time period. I’ll let Luke explain for me: 

Allies wrote:Tears stung his eyes and his heart swelled with a bittersweet aching. Oh, it was her, it was his Callie, and the love he had once felt for her was still there, still sweet and warm and true.
In becoming human once again, Callista had lost her connection to the Force. She had learned that she could only touch the dark side, and they had parted ways long ago as she embarked on a journey to recover her Force powers.

With the exception of the dark side, which she’s not using in the sparring session you’ve cited, Callista has no access to the force, not here neither years later, as the ERC’s summary of the novel Planet of Twilight confirms: 


SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Aq-LpUEs4-cxQV81u2UOYVO6uYDsGwOSXDh_MEyI26iJHmfXYkomRXrTbeJYzSBj66wwE36ADQDFJqDSd9iJTqvTjlFVPtlUdxem3StdWddGGmIv5R63wMHdBDIq18lf_KatysDb


With that in mind, it’s unlikely Luke, ”a Jedi of the highest order” would struggle against a non-force-sensitive. His purpose was, in fact, to help Callista in regaining her force abilities, so I doubt he was going all-out in a sparring session. After all, as you’ve said yourself, Luke after Dark Empire has a tendency to hold back and his powers in most situations, even in combat and only uses the amount of force energy required to complete the task. But if you want to actually use sparring sessions as legitimate showings then why don’t we turn our attention to Kyp’s spar with Luke in Fury, in which Kyp battles Luke to a stalemate and defends from him with minimal effort while Cilghal is swiftly defeated? 

Legacy of the force: Fury wrote:Kyp looked dubiously at Luke's twin weapons and fell into a defensive posture. "The team will consist of one or two Masters, three or four Jedi Knights, and a native guide. They'll approach the Senate Building through the undercity." As Luke neared and began throwing probing attacks in quick succession, Kyp deflected them close to his body with equal speed and minimal movement. "When Jacen enters or leaves the building, they spring the trap. Coma gas and shock nets as the first wave, the Jedi making their direct assault immediately afterward." He stopped to stare intently at Luke.

Luke felt the attack-the Force, propelling numerous small objects at him. He jumped back and brought up both lightsabers as a shower of old nuts and bolts came at him with missile speed. It was like defending himself against Yuuzhan Vong thud bugs for the first time in years, but the old skill was undiminished-he calculated which objects had a chance of hitting him and incinerated only them with his blades, letting the others fly harmlessly past.


3) Dovin Basal scaling





As for Kyp scaling to Luke, starwars.com makes it pretty clear that Kyp is Luke's inferior power-wise during the Vong War. Allston himself comments on Kyp's commentary during the dovin basal feat and says that Kyp isn't as strong as Luke

Which was never my argument to begin with. Kyp doesn’t need to be equally as strong as Luke, but rather in the same general realm, something that’s supported by other sources I provided and still stands, as I will elaborate on shortly. Considering how huge Luke’s growth thorough the new republic era is, Kyp would definitely be powerful enough to be at least comparable to earlier iterations of Luke. That’s all my argument needs in order to work. 


And as a kicker, Kyp, an ally of Luke per The New Jedi Order Sourcebook, is also below Mara:

I find it hard to believe that quote is referring to Mara’s force power. For once, the sourcebook still defines the two jedi groups as sides”, not to mention her emotional connection with Luke. Leia’s existence also further questions the validity of your quote, given her raw force power is consistently stated to be around Luke’s level. So the options here are: Mara is above or on par with Luke (heavily doubtful if you ask me), which in no way hurts Kyp, the accolade is wrong or we’re not dealing with force power. The choice is yours. Furthermore, just like Katarn, Mara’s feats of pure telekinesis are vastly inferior to Kyp’s, given it takes her a great of effort to simply collapse a tunnel. 

As for why Luke appeared so tired after the dovin basal feat, Luke explains why some tasks can be exerting even if he isn't tapping into his full power:

The quote you posted is dealing with Luke’s decision to hold back some of his power, as a result of his experiences with the reborn Emperor, which I’ll get to shortly. First of all, it’s not saying he would never use said powers, as Luke puts it: 

VOTF wrote:Luke shook his head. “But why?” he demanded. “The power’s obviously there, available for a Jedi to use. Is it just because I touched the dark side that using it is so bad for me?

He’s not saying he would always restrain himself, but that the risk of using said power for dark side purposes would prevent him from doing so, as a result of past experiences. In the same book however, he learns what he should do in order to wield his raw power effectively, that being a “sacrifice”: 

She grimaced. "Besides, I keep remembering stories about how the last step to becoming a Jedi is usually making some supreme and rather ugly personal sacrifice. I'm not crazy about that one, either."

"It's not always as bad as it seems," Luke said, and Mara could sense his discomfort as unpleasant memories of his own floated back to the surface. "Just before he died, Master Yoda told me that before I would truly be a Jedi I needed to face Vader again. I jumped to the conclusion that that meant I had to either kill him or let him kill me. As it turned out, it didn't happen either way."

"But you had to be willing to make that sacrifice if necessary," Mara pointed out. "Thanks, but I'm not interested."

"Then you automatically limit your capabilities," Luke said. "If you aren't willing to make a commitment?"

Secondly, the explanation is built on a wrong example. Yoda never struggled to lift that X-wing, the ESB novel makes it clear: 

SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) J34FquB1y_IDyx4EryF9JHoCg9N8mLolxOS_CGA5mtjNgbsgVJ8ulXsGaj2fjFCiiUXsTQqrG4w9sOml8bxuc-UiaI-lRxZ0akal5cM4CdKcs-ZXL2y2bQWyQcPkRRrqDEZhlXYg


By the time of the Vong War, Luke isn't tapping into his full power for things such as the dovin basal manipulation like he was in the past due to a fear of falling to the dark side and no longer being able to hear the guidance from the Force. Luke is exhausted from the dovin basal since he isn't tapping into the Force fully to max out his raw power; instead he is drawing on the bare minimum required to complete the task similar to Yoda which tires him since he isn't drawing on the Force to the point where it makes the task easy for him and is instead drawing on the Force to the point where he can just complete the task.

This isn’t true. Luke’s reservations, on his own admission, at least in the New jedi order era, are a result of the vong’s immunity to the force. If he is touching something he can feel and sense in the force (the void being one such object) he’s not going to have any form of restraint or need to simply use the amount of power required to complete the task, but rather call on his full power. 

Destiny’s way wrote:At the beginning I was deeply disturbed by the fact the Yuuzhan Vong couldn't be found in the Force. It seemed to me that they might be a mockery of the Force, a deliberate profanation of life, and that I would be destined to lead a dark crusade against them." He looked along the table, meeting every pair of eyes. "It would have been a dreadful thing," he said. "So many Jedi would have turned against the light in a war like that. I might not have been able to resist the darkness myself."

Manipulating a Dovin basal (specifically the void) isn’t something Luke considers a potential path to the dark side but, on the contrary, it’s essential to save those under his command, so he’s doing it for a good purpose, at which the power available to a Jedi to usewould come into place. As for the quote you brought up, the former is referring to the conversation in VOTF (given it’s in the introduction of the sourcebook) and it even says Luke has obtained a greater understanding prior to the war’s start. Same would apply to the latter, given it comes right after the first. Overall, while Luke does not fully overcome this limitation until TUF, he is certainly not shown to consistently hold back his powers. 

Per The Essential Chronology, Kyp is also less powerful than Luke (and Leia) during The New Rebellion (17 ABY), so from then through The New Jedi Order: Force Heretic I: Remnant (28 ABY), Luke is distinctively more powerful than Kyp.

Luke has been addressed above, as for Leia, her raw force power is stated to rival that of Luke more than once, so it doesn’t really hurt Kyp in any way.

Leia wasn't a fully trained Jedi, but Kyp suspected her raw powers rivaled those of her brother.

Dark Journey



Conclusion


To sum up: 
>Kyp and Katarn are not in the same tier.
>Kyp is also far more powerful than Tenebrous, and that at the very beginning of his jedi career. 
>Luke scales above Yoda, while Callista is hardly on par with an average knight.
>Kyp is in the same ballpark as early Vong war Luke. 
Given Praxis has been unable to disprove my primary argument for Kyp, my argument remains the same. Kyp is in the same ballpark of a Luke who is far more powerful than previous iterations of himself, who in turn scale from Malgus giving the Outlander a decent fight. Furthermore, even Yoda scales above the Outlander:

ROTS novel wrote:This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known…

Indicating Kyp is simply on a higher level power-wise.



@Praxis tocca a te ora. 
lorenzo.r.2nd
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SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Empty Re: SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

on June 26th 2020, 11:23 am
Awesome. Good indirect Vader wank. I'm proud of u
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SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Empty Re: SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

on June 27th 2020, 5:18 pm
I disagree with the Yoda > Outlander scaling via that quote but apart from that, very nice work.
MasterCilghal
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SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Empty Re: SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

on June 27th 2020, 5:44 pm
@BoD @Lorenzo.r.2nd thank you both.
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SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Empty Re: SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

on July 8th 2020, 11:45 am
Victory goes to Praxis due to Cilghal's concession

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SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) Empty Re: SS - Kyp Durron (MasterCilghal) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

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