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MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on August 30th 2019, 8:11 am
THIS DEBATE HAS CONCLUDED. @MasterCilghal IS THE VICTOR BY CONCESSION

SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  1f0c7510
Both Katarn and Horn are taken around the time of fate of the Jedi Apocalypse at peak combative state.


 There will be three posts per side. The first post, not including response or sourcing quotes, will have a maximum of 10,000 original characters, the second 17,500, and the third 25,000. Each debater will have a 2,500 finisher. The verdict will be decided by a panel of judges to be announced.

This thread follows all default stipulations listed in the "Guidelines" thread. Additional rules are as follows:


  • Feats take precedent over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.

  • Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.

  • All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.

HellfireUnit
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Level Three

SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty Re: SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on August 30th 2019, 8:39 am
TAEP
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty Re: SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on August 30th 2019, 8:48 am
TAEP
Shioz
Shioz

SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty Re: SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on August 30th 2019, 9:37 am
TAEP
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
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SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty Re: SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on August 30th 2019, 11:30 am
TAEP.
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty Re: SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on September 1st 2019, 8:08 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
TAEP.
IG
IG
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SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty Re: SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on September 1st 2019, 11:24 pm
TAEP
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level Three
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SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty Re: SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on September 10th 2019, 11:24 am
Message reputation : 100% (5 votes)
Canonical superiority 
I’ll start this off by presenting a piece of evidence that points to Katarn being superior to his council colleague as a general combatant. In the novel legacy of the force: fury, when Luke decides to send a group of jedi to take down Caedus, Kyp Durron, Corran Horn and Kyle Katarn offer themselves as possible candidates to lead the Jedi strike team: 



Fury wrote:“Masters Horn and Katarn have volunteered. I am also willing to lead it. But I haven’t assigned a mission leader yet…because I think you should lead it.”



However, Luke ultimately decides to choose Katarn rather than either Corran or Durron (or even himself) : 



Fury wrote:He thought about it a long moment. “Here’s my decision. Master Katarn will lead this mission.”

The book only explains why Luke decided not to lead the mission, but I think the reason behind his choice (which came after thinking for a long moment) of Kyle as the leader: he is an overall superior combatant to Horn and Kyp and stands a better chance of defeating Caedus in combat. Could there be any other, non-combat related reason? No, because neither Corran nor Kyp have any personal connection to Jacen that may make him unable to strike him down or cloud their judgment . Could Luke be wrong at assessing their combat abilities? It is certainly possible, but considering that Luke has trained them and sparred with them for decades ( not to mention that  a sparring session had just taken place) I think such an idea is unlikely tosay the least. While Katarn ultimately proved himself Caedus’ inferior and was unable to defeat him, there is no indication Corran would have done any better. 

Katarn’s lightsaber mastery: a brief analysis 
Kyle Katarn, thanks to his experience as an imperial stormtrooper, a rebel agent and a Jedi Knight (during which he defeated several opponents who employed extremely unorthodox styles of combat, such as Jerec’s dark jedi) is an extremely versatile duelist, who employs all lightsaber styles and creates a unique fighting style by mixing them: 

SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  RLF6i58JlqAhTRq9YnYg6UndfrhZ0PPQqRAYWCr1ZxjM1lR8iQcX2tnrIc-K9_bssvSF6Nl2E9ZFqKAkofYlUsna8kwRXOi4xHqLY9vg6A3TK6x00Ejlb0oEf5O7JqYVVDSSms8F
-Jedi academy training manual

This will make him into an even more dangerous threat, as Horn will have to deal with his unpredictability and experience. 
Having said that, Kyle has also some interesting accolades, such as being one of the Jedi’s most skilled members: 
"What about these impulses?" Kyle Katarn asked. With brown hair, brown eyes, and a tan shirt tucked into brown breeches, he looked like a farmer about to return to his fields instead of one of the Jedi order's most famous and skilled members. "Are you talking about Force impulses?"
Source: Dark Nest I: The Joiner King

Furthermore he has a good amount of feats, such as somewhat holding his own against Caedus, defeating a group of dark jedi without any formal training, and beating Desann, feats I will analyze in my next post. 

Dealing with Corran’s unorthodox abilities 
When discussing a duel between any character and Corran Horn it is important to discuss whether or not he can deal with Corran’s abilities, because in that case anyone on his or even below is going to be able to capitalize on his lackluster telekinesis. So the question is, can Katarn achieve such a feat? Based on what we know, he actually can. First, he won’t be attempting to use force lightning against Corran, as he knows very well it would just ackfire on him. What about the illusions? Katarn has proven against opponents such as Desann and Sariss that he can deal with mental attacks, in the former case defeating the dark jedi whom we see using his illusions in jedi outcast . In the latter, Katarn was able to defend from a mental attack and counter with his own: 

Dark forces: Jedi Knight wrote:The Jedi accessed the knowledge gained from the long-dead Tal, blocked the mental strike and answered with an attack of his own. He launched a head cut from the third position, flexed his wrist, and extended his arm. Though a good deal lighter than its metal counterpart, the Jedi energy weapon possessed similar characteristics. It could penetrate like a rapier and cut like a saber. A double-edged saber.

Sariss blocked the mental blow, wondered where Katarn had garnered such knowledge, and found herself under attack.

While both cases do not indicate him being able to shatter illusions, it’s the experience that Katarn has obtained from them that leads me to believe he can deal with Corran’s distractions, especially when one takes into account he is expecting them, as he knows Corran. 

Conclusion 
Kyle has all the tools he needs to win: he is Corran’s confirmed superior, he has a very difficult style to counter and can effectively deal with Corran’s unorthodox abilities. 
The ball is in your court, @Greysentinel365
MasterCilghal
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SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty Re: SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on September 10th 2019, 11:26 am

_________________
SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  E8ae7210
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
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Level Three

SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty Re: SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on September 10th 2019, 12:22 pm
Nice opening.
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty Re: SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on September 10th 2019, 4:11 pm
really good opening.
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce

SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty Re: SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on September 10th 2019, 8:45 pm
Slow and easy start

Should have something up by next week at the latest.
Shioz
Shioz

SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty Re: SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on September 11th 2019, 3:16 am
Good post.
NotAA3
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SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty Re: SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on September 11th 2019, 12:14 pm
Good post.
Darth JooJ
Darth JooJ

SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty Re: SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on September 11th 2019, 8:29 pm
Taep the rest
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty Re: SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on October 5th 2019, 1:00 pm
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce

SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty Re: SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on October 6th 2019, 7:25 am
Message reputation : 100% (6 votes)
Alright...... I forgot about this. Let's catch up quickly

I Must Hurt You To Help You?

Not once. But twice in your opener your points fall apart from failure to read the larger context of the book, or even the passage.

First 

In the novel legacy of the force: fury, when Luke decides to send a group of jedi to take down Caedus, Kyp Durron, Corran Horn and Kyle Katarn offer themselves as possible candidates to lead the Jedi strike team: 

Kyle wasn't chosen because he stood the best chance against Caedus.


Kyp's voice became more sober. "The mission group reports partial success. Colonel Solo remains at large. Master Katarn was badly injured but has been successfully taken to a safe house. Jedi Mithric lost his life. The others are with Katarn. The droid-piloted shuttle did not get off the ground after its landing. The surviving team members did successfully evacuate through it into the undercity, but since it never got airborne, traces of their escape route were detected. We can anticipate that the undercity will not be a viable approach in the future."
 
Luke took in the news, shaking his head over Mithric's death. "And the package?"
 
"The package is on Colonel Solo."
 
Ben frowned, puzzled. "What's the package?"
 
"A tracer." Luke outlined a square about five centimeters across on the table surface. "About so big. Black cloth. As long as it remains on Jacen, we can accurately plot where he is, get a better sense of his movements."
 
Ben considered that. "So ... you were sure that the mission you sent Valin on would fail."
 
Kyp nodded. "The ambush portion of it, yes. Once I realized that we couldn't mount a successful grab-or-terminate mission against Jacen without being able to control the place and the time, I decided that it should be as realistic as possible. ... but also that it would serve chiefly to set up future operations. Ones that have a chance of succeeding."

- LotF Fury

He was sent as a sacrificial lamb to give the NJO a better shot a Jacen later. And when it came time to take that shot, guess who Luke wants with him?

He could begin to make out the identity of his ambush-ers now. Luke, the shining presence. Kyp Durron. Corran Horn. Two or three others he didn't know well enough to recognize.

Three Masters this time. They'd learned their lesson at the Senate Building when he'd finished off Kyle Katarn.

- LotF Fury

Hmmmm so when it came to actually taking down Caedus and not placing a piece of cloth, Luke sends Kyle to get stabbed and wants Corran and Kyp Durron with him as backup.

And this is not the only time Luke has made such a decision. Such as in Apocalypse where Luke had to pick a strike team to go with him to take down the main shield generator without which the entire planetary assault force would fail. He chose...... Corran over Katarn to accompany him. 

During this mission Corran not only matched Luke against the Sith Sabers

Jaina dipped her head in acknowledgment, then spun to meet her next attacker-and found Luke picking his way toward her. His lightsaber was already deactivated, and his expression was serene, as though fighting Sith at three-to-one odds was only meditation for him. Following a step behind him was Ben. The young man looked a bit awestruck, but he was spattered with enough blood to suggest he had not been idle.
 
In the opposite direction, Jaina found Corran coming to join them. His nose was wrinkled at the stench of so much death, but he seemed no more troubled by the fight than did Luke

- LotF Fury

But fought a prolonged battle against a slew of Sith forces and Abeloth. To the point where all of them were glowing from force energy.
 
All Luke's team had to do was take out that shield generator.

On most days, that would have been an easy job for two Jedi Masters and Jaina Solo, who, as the Sword of the Jedi, had proven time and again that she was the combat equal of anyone in the Order.

But Luke and his two companions were not at their "normal" best. They had been fighting and retreating-mostly retreating-for far too long. At this point, they were all suffering from serious wounds. Jaina had a broken arm and probably several broken ribs. Corran had lost two fingers to a stray blaster bolt, and he was limping around on a knee swollen to the size of a hubba gourd. Luke had taken a blow to the head that still had him seeing stars, and he had a painful lightsaber burn along his left side. They were all drawing on the Force so heavily that they were virtually glowing with cell overload. 


- LotF Apocalypse 

So you see it is in fact Corran that Luke has chosen over Kyle for several critical missions. In fact Luke sacrificed Kyle to use Corran later. Says it all really.

While Katarn ultimately proved himself Caedus’ inferior and was unable to defeat him, there is no indication Corran would have done any better.

Corran lasted against an Abeloth avatar with backup Sith for so long he was glowing with Force Energy (a level of output Kyle cannot and has demonstrated he can match). Kyle got punked easily by injured Caedus. 

  Kyle Katarn, thanks to his experience as an imperial stormtrooper, a rebel agent and a Jedi Knight (during which he defeated several opponents who employed extremely unorthodox styles of combat, such as Jerec’s dark jedi) is an extremely versatile duelist, who employs all lightsaber styles and creates a unique fighting style by mixing them: 

Jerec's dark jedi are basically featless except for a few generic accolades and dying to Katarn. With many of them being matched in skill by Kyle with nothing but basic sword training. If you want to play the accolade games fine. Let's start with perfection

Under Vader's relentless tutelage, the Apprentice all but perfected the fine art of lightsaber combat and learned to wield many fearsome dark side powers.

- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia


Galen Marek perfected lightsaber combat. Including mastering Juyo. Which requires mastery of all other forms. That alone seems enough to match Katarn doesn't it? But let's keep going
Said Marek matches Shaak Ti. Despite him being hindered and her being amped by a massive LS nexus (Felucia). How does Shaak do in the saber skill accolade department?

Shaak Ti is a Master of Makashi and Ataru forms in addition to her legendary strength in the Force. Known far and wide as a cunning and serene Jedi, only the most skilled of the Order could stand against her!
- The Clone Wars Adventures

The Jedi revere Shaak Ti as one of the highest of their Order and among the most accomplished in lightsaber combat.
- The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide

Interesting. Now here is a later iteration of Marek. Being matched by a Shadow Guard.

Out of the cloud of metal fragments leapt a second of the Emperor's Sith assassins, saber-staff upraised. The apprentice met him with a clash of sparks and lightning.
Sith against Sith, they fought backward and forward through the broad, metal-lined space. This assassin was more proficient than the first, wiry and strong with a good reach and penchant for telekinetically throwing items from inside the apprentice's blind spot. He proved to be tough work until the apprentice wrenched the next giant fan off its gimbals and sent it spinning through the air. The black guard seemed so stunned by the sight of it that he didn't jump until it was too late. One spinning blade took his right leg off at the knee. From then, the fight was over.
- TFU Novel

SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  6333861-3445002250-7145264223770337933%25253Faccount_id%25253D1

SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  6333862-0996139366-7669633520560682472%25253Faccount_id%25253D1

Note that in both fights, Galen had to resort to the force or the environment to overcome the Shadow Guard. He could not defeat them in blade to blade combat. Stalemating in the novel and receiving physical strikes in the comic.

Hey everyone loves this one

None would be trained sufficiently to be a threat to Darth Bane's insistence that there only be two Sith, nor would they be a threat to Darth Sidious or his apprentice Darth Vader. The most powerful of these agents were 'only' Sith adepts but would appear to be almost as dark Jedi - the likes of Asajj Ventress, Mara Jade or Inquisitor Valin (in fact a fallen Jedi). The lesser agents were reduced to still-deadly faceless minions. Amongst their ranks were the Shadow Guard.


- Starships and Vehicles Collection #63

There's a relevant name in there. But we haven't even gotten to her yet. The shadow guards are all inferior to Palpatines Sith Adepts/Dark jedi. This would include our lovely friend Vill Goir, a lightsaber teacher and member of Palps Dark Side Elite.

Also a member of this elite is Kam Solusar. Who on his own could challenge DE Luke Skywalker. Straining him


LUKE AND KAM: (grunting with effort)
 
KAM: DIE, SKYWALKER!!!
 
LUKE: You cannot defeat me, Dark Jedi.
 
KAM: If I do not (grunts), others will follow (slash)!! I-- uhh--am one of many! The Emperor's Dark Side warriors will find you!
 
LUKE: Uhh!! If you kill me-unn--I will gain powers beyond your imagination.

KAM: Your Jedi delusions mean nothing--uhn--to me!! 

- Dark Empire II script

Kam then turns back to the light side. And curbstomps Goir in one move

SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  7096300-0041976345-latest

While it's noted that Kam knew Goir's moves. This would run both ways as Goir was his teacher. Which makes the feat even better. As Solusar's augmentation overcame both Goir's knowledge and his own powers.

Corran then held the edge of Kam in spars consistently.

Now we get to Mara. While only in training on Yavin IV, Corran is close enough to Mara that a proper spar could fatal.

This fact is made all that more damning because we actually saw very little of each other. In the mornings we would run together, then Luke would concentrate on working with Mara much as he had Kyp. That left Kam instructing the rest of us. After lunch we would listen to more Jedi lore from the Holocron, then Mara and I would practice with the lightsaber. While I was not her equal with the shimmering blade, we would have been closely enough matched to seriously hurt each other, so Kam just pitted us against remotes.


- I, Jedi

Later, when both were recovering from Vong toxins Corran defeats Mara. Marvelling Luke with their display

Full match:

 The hiss-crack of lightsaber smashing against lightsaber drowned out the sharp intake of Luke Skywalker's breath. He watched as the blow that had been struck drove Mara Jade Skywalker back and had her stumbling. Luke could feel the way the Force flowed around her and through her. Jagged, precipitous lines seemed to attack her, to trip her up. He reached out with a hand, ready to smooth sharp lines into gentle curves.


Yet even before he could do that, Mara used the physical momentum of her retreat. She rolled down onto her right hip, then came around, slashing wide and level with her blue lightsaber. Her red hair shone with reflected highlights as it lashed from one shoulder to another. Her green eyes blazed with another sort of light, one that matched the feral snarl on her face, betraying no sense of weakness from her debilitating illness.
 
The foe leapt above the slash, though not as high or as gracefully as other Jedi might have. Corran Horn landed and shifted his silver lightsaber to his left hand and stabbed it toward the ground. It sparked as it caught Mara's return cut. Corran then pivoted on the ball of his left foot and snapped a side kick at Mara's head. She ducked back, rolling through a somersault, then came up on her feet.
 
Her blade came up in a guard high by her right ear. Corran faced her, his blade held in two hands and running from his belly toward a point beside his right instep. The light from their blades turned their sweat into an iridescent sheen visible on Mara's face and bare arms and on Corran's dripping torso.
 
Mara attacked and Corran parried. They exchanged blows, each retreating and attacking in turn. Luke marveled at the complexity of the Force flows around them. He had seen greater displays of the Force - years ago before I understood the Force's subtleties - and more fluid displays of swordsmanship, but the fight he witnessed here was altogether different. Mara and Corran, longtime friends, each sought to push the other to the limit, and relied on guile and skill and strength to do it. They shifted from defense to attack, and through a myriad modes of each. The object was not to do damage, but to force the other person to prevent damage.
 
What made it even more remarkable was that neither of them was in full, good health. Mara had been battling a disease that sapped her strength and defied Luke's best efforts to help her. He knew things could have been worse: of a hundred people diagnosed with the ailment, only she had survived. Her strength in the Force has sustained her, and in combat she lets the Force race through her.
 
Corran had only recently completed bacta therapy for life-threatening wounds he'd earned in a fight with the Yuuzhan Vong on Bimmiel. While the injuries had healed, including the long-term effects of a biotoxin, getting his conditioning back and regaining his combat edge was not easy. Luke could see Corran's chest heaving with the exercise and smiled. Neither of us is as young as we once were.
 
Mara crashed her blade against Corran's, driving him back. Corran's right ankle twisted, dumping him to the workout room floor. He rolled back through a somersault and came up on his right knee, with his left flank closer to Mara than his right. He held his lightsaber in toward his belly, then rotated his right hand. The weapon's internal assembly shifted, more than doubling the length of the lightsaber's blade and infusing it with a deep amethyst hue.
 
Mara laughed sharply and swung her blade at the slender purple energy rod opposing her. While Corran's weapon did give him reach on her, a simple beat attack would swing the blade wide, then she could dart forward and spit Corran with a lunge. The surprise of Corran's blade-lengthening tactic had worked on enemies before, but Luke knew Mara must have been expecting it and had long since worked out a strategy to deal with it.
 
She swung her blue blade to batter Corran's blade aside, but got no spark and no hiss from a collision of the blades. Her mighty swing spun her around, and as she completed the circle, the blue blade carved an infinity symbol in the air before her. She dropped back two steps, then thumbed her blade off and bowed in Corran's direction, before slumping to her knees with sweat pasting locks of hair to her cheeks.
 
Luke arched an eyebrow at Corran. "How long have you been waiting to use that tactic?"
 
Corran shut his blade off, then rotated the assembly back into its original position. He slid off his right ankle and onto his butt, then sat cross-legged on the floor. "The Vong got me thinking about it. We can't feel them through the Force, so we can't feel where they are. That makes them difficult to defend against."
 
Mara snorted. "Turning your blade off in the middle of a fight like that is a foolish thing to do."
 
"I know, but I could have just as easily switched blade lengths as you went to beat my blade aside. A stop thrust is very effective against an incoming enemy, if you know the enemy is incoming. I figured you'd have to press your attack. I doubled the blade, giving you a way to take my weapon out of play, then killed the blade as you went to knock it aside. Another touch of the thumb and you get spitted."
 
Luke felt a chill run down his spine

- New Jedi Order: Dark Tide II: Ruin

On top of this keep in mind Mara Jade was the deadliest of Palpatine's agents.

The Empire's deadliest agent married to the Rebel Alliance's greatest hero. The irony is thick, but many on both sides relish the symbolism.

- The New Essential Guide to Characters

Including Vader. And this does not relate to her assassination abilities. As notably, Mara could learn nothing new from Post DE Luke's private teachings or anything at the NJO. Whether is be saber or force techniques

The flesh around her eyes tightened. "My Imperial training directed me toward using dark-side techniques for tapping the Force. I let emotions fuel what I did. I came here thinking Luke would show me new things I could do, new abilities to learn, but what he did instead was show me how to employ the light side. I'm still doing the same things, but I have a new fuel source."


- I, Jedi
And so finally we get

LotF Corran > NJO Corran >> In training Corran >/= Mara(Empire deadliest agent) > Kam >>>>> Goir >> Shadow Guard > Galen Marek (Perfected Lightsaber Combat) > Shaak Ti > Kyle's generic lightsaber acolades. 

Starting to see my point here?

Kyle gets TP'd


 So we finally get back to your not reading/watching things (sorry)
Katarn has proven against opponents such as Desann and Sariss that he can deal with mental attacks, in the former case defeating the dark jedi whom we see using his illusions in jedi outcast 

Setting aside you just linked the whole video rather than the relevant portion. Let's look at what happens.
SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Giphy
Oh man Kyle just walked through that illusion. What follows after this is a lengthy puzzle section during which Kyle falls for every single one of these three illusions before figuring out how to proceed.

But I'm sure he'll have plenty of time to play puzzle while Corran is stomping him in sabers. 
In the latter, Katarn was able to defend from a mental attack and counter with his own: 

Kyle's mental attack did nothing. And if you had bothered to read one, just one line up

Kyle swallowed, knowing his opponent was more experienced than he, and then suddenly reeled under the impact of a mental attack. 

- Dark Forces: Jedi Knight
Ahh to reel, what is it to reel?

Reel: lose one's balance and stagger or lurch violently.

Oh man, so a basic TP attack from Jerec's dark jedi can send Kyle staggering or lurching violently?

Thankyou you Clighal. You have proven Kyle is very vulnerable to Corran's TP for me.

How this match will go?

Corran outmatches Kyle in force reserves, skill and endurance. As pointed out by my opponent in his first post 

First, he won’t be attempting to use force lightning against Corran, as he knows very well it would just ackfire on him.

He is well aware that Kyle's lightning and by extension his TK is worthless. He possess neither the magnitude or speed to beat Corran's defenses with it.

Katarn has demonstrated a weakness to TP on multiple occasions as provided by my opponent. I see the match proceeding as such

Corran flanks around and TP's Kyle whether by illusion or lurching him violently with a TP attack. Then without moving uses his dual phase saber to extend his blade into his skull as such.

"You want me, come get me."
 
The Yuuzhan Vong took a step forward, and Corran cranked his right wrist around. The throttle assembly twisted, swapping a diamond for an emerald in the lightsaber's interior assembly. The energy beam narrowed and went from silver to purple, then more than doubled in length. The blade's tip stabbed deep through the younger Vong's left eye socket.


- Dark Tide Onslaught

Ending the fight. If by some miracle Kyle makes it to a direct duel, Mara, has fallen for this dual phase trick as well as noted in the spar above and Corran can beat him directly either way.

Corran wins
MasterCilghal
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SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty Re: SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on October 6th 2019, 7:36 am
Excellent post @Greysentinel365. Will respond in time.

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SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty Re: SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on October 6th 2019, 11:23 am
Should be Jedi Knight: Jedi Academy Kyle. Dude is >>> Luke.  SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  3344068304
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SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty Re: SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on October 6th 2019, 2:19 pm
Amazing post.
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SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty Re: SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on October 6th 2019, 2:48 pm
Solid post.
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SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty Re: SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on October 6th 2019, 3:25 pm
Good post. This debate will be great.
Deronn_Solo
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SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty Re: SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on October 6th 2019, 6:26 pm
Opener was okay, but Grey's post was amazing. I'm sure Cilghal has something great for store for us too, because Kyle has much more to pull from.
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SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty Re: SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on November 12th 2019, 3:29 pm
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
Premise
First, I apologize for the time it took me to write this post, but unfortunately I’ve been pretty busy with homework these days, so I was unable to complete it sooner. I hope you will find it enjoyable. Having said tat, Let’s begin. 

Luke’s choice

Not once. But twice in your opener your points fall apart from failure to read the larger context of the book, or even the passage.


Looking at your post I actually thought I might have been wrong with my initial assessment of the situation, but reading the book carefully I realized you’re actually wrong here, or, to be more specific, you’re not entirely right, and in a way that benefits my initial argument. First of all, when Kyp comes up with the idea of a mission to take down Caedus he specifically notes it’s meant to capture or, should the situation require it, kill the Sith Lord: 


Fury wrote:“Actually, it’s a plan for a mission against Jacen. A capture-or-neutralize,” he said, his lightsaber flashing at Luke.
“Neutralize.” Luke frowned. He circled Kyp, trying to put him in the middle of their three-way exchange, but Cilghal paced him so that Luke remained in the center. “Meaning ‘kill.’”
Kyp nodded, not repentant. “This isn’t a mission of assassination, Luke. But if the capture isn’t clean, if the choice is to run away and leave him in charge of the Alliance or finish him then and there…”


After this, not once is it mentioned that the main objective of the mission changes. This leads into my original point. Luke chooses Kyle with still in mind the idea of he mission being a “capture-or-neutralize” one. Afterwards, the book cuts (after the Fel part) to Katarn and the other Jedi approaching Caedus’s location on Coruscant. Only After the mission’s failure, Kyp explains he already knew it would have failed, as you correctly argued. At this point, you have two options: 
1- Luke and Kyp had already planned the mission even before Kyp brought up the idea. 
2- the objective of the mission changed off-panel after Luke chose Kyle. 

Now, the first one simply cannot be true, as there is no mention of it  in either the previous book, inferno, or in Fury. As such, this means that, when it comes to choosing a Jedi with the intent of killing Caedus, Katarn is a better team leader than either Corran or Kyp and is likely to perform better than either of them. The fact that the goal of the mission later changes is irrelevant to this debate. 

Hmmmm so when it came to actually taking down Caedus and not placing a piece of cloth, Luke sends Kyle to get stabbed and wants Corran and Kyp Durron with him as backup.

Reading the whole sequence carefully I found out that Corran’s support was purely a piloting one and not in a possible confrontation with Caedus. In fact, the book states that only Luke and Kyp were the ones supposed to board the Anakin Solo and engage Caedus in a duel: 

Fury wrote:“The cargo compartments of their StealthXs were loaded with equipment especially chosen and crafted for this mission—which originally entailed having the squadron creep up close to the Anakin Solo as it waited in space, then launching a salvo of engine-crippling proton torpedoes and having most of the Jedi divert retaliatory attacks and starfighters while Luke and Kyp, laden with equipment, secretly boarded and tried to reach Jacen.


Furthermore, and interestingly enough, Katarn and Kyp are noted by none other than Luke himself to be comparable as duelists: 

Backlash wrote:He might have been a match for an expert swordsmaster such as Kyp or Kyle Katarn.

So, if anything, the sequence you brought up further establishes Kyle as Corran’s superior rather than the contrary, considering that Luke chose Kyp to accompany him rather than Corran. So yeah, my original argument, contrary to my initial belief, still stands. 

Debunking Corran’s feats in Apocalypse 

And this is not the only time Luke has made such a decision. Such as in Apocalypse where Luke had to pick a strike team to go with him to take down the main shield generator without which the entire planetary assault force would fail. He chose...... Corran over Katarn to accompany him. 


There are a number of factors to consider: 

  • To my knowledge, the book never mentions that Luke chose Corran personally or, for example, that Corran volunteered for the mission, which is possible considering that it was an extremely high-risk one. 
  • Jaina, a fighter who, in the past, you have repeatedly labeled as relatively unimpressive and below Luminara Unduli was also part of that mission. 
  • From what I can understand, it wasn’t just Corran and Luke who were supposed to infiltrate the temple and lower the shield generator, rather it was the goal of the entire jedi strike team, which included several knights. 



During this mission Corran not only matched Luke against the Sith Sabers

I don’t see why this is particularly impressive. Honestly, I can very well envision Katarn replicating this, given his parity with Galaan, as I will explain later. Furthermore, the sequence is told from an external point of view, we don’t know whether he was actually besting sith sabers with the same ease as Luke. 

But fought a prolonged battle against a slew of Sith forces and Abeloth. To the point where all of them were glowing from force energy.

Corran’s feat here is impressive, however you’re wrong in saying that Corran fought Abeloth. It never happened. In fact, as soon as Corran defeated the last sith before reaching the shield generator Abeloth (note that this is just an avatar of her, whose power is comparable to that of an extremely weakened Luke Skywalker, as we see Luke defeating her later) is able to knock out Corran with a single bolt of force lightning: 

Apocalypse wrote:Korelei—or whoever, whatever she was—raised an arm, and a powerful bolt of Force lightning crackled down the run. Taken by surprise, Corran screamed and went down, then lay on the duct floor convulsing and shaking, swaddled in dancing forks of blue energy and unable to free himself.


(a level of output Kyle cannot and has demonstrated he can match). Kyle got punked easily by injured Caedus.

The Caedus example will be addressed in the next post, for now I can say that cutting down fodder, even for an extended period, and facing a single, powerful opponent are feats completely different in nature. Furthermore, I disagree that Kyle can’t replicate that. Let’s look at some of his  stamina/durability feats, some of which do come close to Corran’s one: 

In jedi outcast, Kyle defeated groups of reborn force users and stormtroopers before engaging Desann in a duel that is described as “furious”





In the end, Kyle chased the Dark Jedi to the temples of Luke's Jedi academy on Yavin 4, where he and Desann engaged in furious lightsaber battle for a final time. Only Kyle emerged alive from the conflict.
-D20 Desann (credit to @Goat) 



In jedi academy, he he participated in a mission with Jaden Korr on Vjun, a particularly powerful DS nexus, and still menaged to tank Tavion’s lightning, and hold several tons or debris with the force after cutting down cultists and recieving injuries: 




SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  E9D9YfheH-DiT9BAq68xrpIiwglc0vhUVwgSs7JPhT_wpx-jfYs5hYek_F-oPzyyM_t168Olh9qISxC9aTs5cF2cIusJy6TEXvCrnqpl-Nyy7EQ8CJiW9hZRwzKnD-7BpFXpHq8l
(From databank: Vjun) 


Note that the nexus of Vjun is noted as a particularly potent one in YDR: 

Yoda: Dark Rendevouz wrote:“ Yoda had the dragon’s eyes again: half closed, gleaming under heavy leads. “Strong, strong in the dark side is in this place,” he murmured. “Touch it you can, like a serpent’s belly sliding under your hand.”

“But on Vjun, the force was bent mighty to the dark side.” 


Scaling from Galen marek


Note that in both fights, Galen had to resort to the force or the environment to overcome the Shadow Guard. He could not defeat them in blade to blade combat. Stalemating in the novel and receiving physical strikes in the comic.


Why not? In both instances the Apprentice chose to use the force but the lightsaber portion of their fight doesn’t appear to be very long. 
Furthermore, the quote in no way implies the shadow guard is Galen’s equal. Take into account that Galen has no reason to use his full power against every opponent he faces, especially in that specific instance in which he had to fight groups of stormtroopers and Uggernaughts. 
But most important of all, even if we were to establish some sort of parity in sabers, there is no denying that the guard is far less powerful than Marek, considering that him lifting a simple “giant fan” left his opponent stunned of his display, despite the fact that Galen has even better TK showings than that. I would also like to add that Galen, since he had to appear as a potential ally to Rahm Kota, he was explicitly noted as not using his full power against his opponent(s). Note that the need to project a light side aura would have also hampered his aggressiveness in a fight( credit to @Syndiciate for the following quotes): 

Force unleashed novel wrote:
"What happens if he recognizes you?" Juno had asked him with concern before he left the Rogue Shadow.

"He won't," he had said, remembering the general's burned eyes and the absent scars on his own hands. His body had changed in subtle ways, thanks to Lord Vader. The Force-signature he had possessed over Nar Shaddaa, in the midst of his murderous mission, would be very different from the one he projected now.

Force unleashed novel wrote:
Calm. Reassurance. Hope.
[…] 
He turned his back on Kota, hoping the old man recovered a sufficient sense of self-preservation to look after himself. Not only did his would-be rescuer have to take out the Imperials, but he had to do it without harming any innocent bystanders. That wouldn't look good to anyone schooled in the Jedi ways.


Hey everyone loves this one

On the contrary, I absolutely hate it. If I could purge something from existence it would be that quote.

There's a relevant name in there. But we haven't even gotten to her yet. The shadow guards are all inferior to Palpatines Sith Adepts/Dark jedi. This would include our lovely friend Vill Goir, a lightsaber teacher and member of Palps Dark Side Elite


The statement you presented does not address lightsaber combat. It only says that Ventress and Mara were the most powerful of these agents. Why do I say this? Because, as I already proved, the same applies to Galen, the difference being that while he is vastly above the shadow Guards, we don’t know how significant he gap between them and Mara/Vill Goir is, unless you have an example to show me. 

Also a member of this elite is Kam Solusar. Who on his own could challenge DE Luke Skywalker. Straining him


Once again you’re wrong. Let me post the entire sequence and analyze it (once again credit to the only and inimitable @Goat ): 

   
Spoiler:
 Sound: The music crashes into "Imperial Attack" as the clash of lightsabers is heard.

LUKE AND KAM: (grunting with effort)

KAM: DIE, SKYWALKER!!!

LUKE: You cannot defeat me, Dark Jedi.

KAM: If I do not (grunts), others will follow (slash)!! I-- uhh--am one of many! The Emperor's Dark Side warriors will find you!

LUKE: Uhh!! If you kill me-unn--I will gain powers beyond your imagination.

KAM: Your Jedi delusions mean nothing--uhn--to me!!

LUKE: And your Dark Side powers are nothing to me, Kam Solusar.

KAM: (lashes at Luke, who blocks) How do you know my name?

LUKE: Through the Force. The Force brought me here, to Nespis VIII. It also brought me your name, and the knowledge that you have NOT completely gone over to the Dark Side!

KAM: NO!!! (Keeps striking at Luke, who blocks every move.) I am a Dark Jedi. I serve the Emperor!!

LUKE: The Emperor is dead. The Dark Side is defeated. I feel the good in you!!```

KAM: NO! (Attacks again--but not as hard as before.)

LUKE: I sense your old life. Before the Dark Side ensnared you. (Sound: Force hum begins.) When the Force flowed through you.

KAM: NO!! NNNOOO!!! (Attacks, but his heart's not in it anymore. With visible effort, he turns off his lightsaber.) My life is forfeit, Jedi. Kill me.

LUKE: I do not take life unless I must. Yours I give back to you. (turns off his lightsaber.)

KAM: Why? When I lured you here....I would have made this derelict space station your grave. The tomb of the last Jedi Master.

LUKE: Instead, I will make it the place of your rebirth. You were a Dark Jedi once. But only because you fell under the Emperor's spell. Now that spell is broken!!

Sound: The Force rises, to a wail. Kam cries out.

LUKE: Kam Solusar--I give you back your life!! I give you your freedom! I give you the power that is already yours-- the power of the Jedi!!

Sound: The Force fades.

KAM: (with new strength in his voice) Skywalker.....I'm free.
 


Follow the underlined points: 
1- immediately after the beginning of the duel, Luke notes that Kam cannot defeat him, Implying he’s sure about the outcome of the duel.
2- At several points it is noted that Luke was fighting defensively.
3- Most importantly, Luke’s intention, which can be seen in several of his statements, was to redeem him, not best him in combat. 

Overall, there is no way a fighter inferior to Vader, per the quote that you posted earlier, could challenge Luke, who at this point is significantly superior to Vader, so my interpretation is supported by the lore as well. Having said that, it is true Kam underwent a massive, KENOBIAN style, growth after his redemption, which allowed him to one-shot Goir, but by the time of the duel with Luke it doesn’t apply. 

Corran then held the edge of Kam in spars consistently
Can you provide an example? Regardless of the fact that sparring sessions and real combat are not the same thing, the only sparring session between them i have any knowledge of is the one in SW Union, in which Kam and Corran were more or less stalemating until Kam used TK to swiftly end the fight, but even if there were another he definitely didn’t “hold the edge consistently” 

SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  CwXoaGxtFUd75T2ITUKvrLHcUMlNApUWVWmIYzNDO6O0kqae2eCuSdQhozhfQZCKEMq6pByGLQOc9nflALRaFRUuC9MubNzhR3lOxjVhcdmCQlrfYAfQJQjLC6QxP1Tp0yM2w6I-




Later, when both were recovering from Vong toxins Corran defeats Mara. Marvelling Luke with their display

Again, as I already said, sparring matches and actual duels are different in nature and are a rather ineffective way to establish parity between two characters. Furthermore, Mara was weakened by the Vong comb spores, so that is a factor to consider as well. 


On top of this keep in mind Mara Jade was the deadliest of Palpatine's agents.

Including Vader. And this does not relate to her assassination abilities. As notably, Mara could learn nothing new from Post DE Luke's private teachings or anything at the NJO. Whether is be saber or force techniques



The fact that she couldn’t learn anything new from the NJO doesn’t preclude the quote from referring to her assassination abilities, as it doesn’t state the most powerful or the most skilled but rather deadly, which could refer to a wide variety of abilities and skills that make her what she is. Also, I find it quite ironic that you posted a quote which states that Mara is no threat to Vader and then, all of a sudden, argue she’s deadlier than him. 
Overall, your scaling fails as it based on 2 wrong assumptions : 
1- That lightsaber combat and force abilities are interchangeable.
2- That sparring sessions and live combat are the same thing. 


Spoiler:
 Good fight 

Telepathy 


So we finally get back to your not reading/watching things (sorry)


You’ve arguably done this more times than I did: once with Kyp, once with Corran/Abeloth, twice with with Kam. 


Oh man Kyle just walked through that illusion. What follows after this is a lengthy puzzle section during which Kyle falls for every single one of these three illusions before figuring out how to proceed.


But I'm sure he'll have plenty of time to play puzzle while Corran is stomping him in sabers.



I will admit that was not the strongest of arguments, however my point was not that Kyle resisted said illusions but rather: 


@MasterCilghal wrote:While both cases do not indicate him being able to shatter illusions, it’s the experience that Katarn has obtained from them that leads me to believe he can deal with Corran’s distractions, especially when one takes into account he is expecting them, as he knows Corran.



Essentially what I argued is that he will be expecting the illusions, unlike against Desann, and that it is the experience that he has obtained that will be helpful. Also, is there any evidence that  Corran’s illusions are stronger than Desann’s? 

Kyle's mental attack did nothing. And if you had bothered to read one, just one line up

[…]
Ahh to reel, what is it to reel?

Reel: lose one's balance and stagger or lurch violently.
Oh man, so a basic TP attack from Jerec's dark jedi can send Kyle staggering or lurching violently?
Thankyou you Clighal. You have proven Kyle is very vulnerable to Corran's TP for me.


The fact that novice!Katarn menages to defend from a telepathic attack, even if only partially, as you correctly pointed out, is sufficient proof to me that, in his prime, he should be even less susceptible to such an attack, given he still didn’t have any formal jedi training (jedi training deals with developing your mind defenses as well). It is also worth noting that Sariss is noted as being particularly strong in the mental parts of the force: 

She is one of the most powerful of the seven Dark Jedi, strong in both the physical and mental Force powers.
Jedi Knight: Dark Forces II Game Manual


Corran outmatches Kyle in force reserves, skill and endurance.


that’s some suspect insight.


If by some miracle Kyle makes it to a direct duel, Mara, has fallen for this dual phase trick as well as noted in the spar above and Corran can beat him directly either way.

I disagree. I already explained the nature of Kyle’s tecnique in that it is quite varied and makes him extremely adaptable. In fact he was able to counter an extremely erratic fighting style as a novice, when dueling Boc: 

SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  VhAx-V-Wc6Gn79yodjWF1PzgEYOMN9CqPo8TEimwE0zi46V3_lNLqJWNFRvJuX_EkmneP9SVllJ6LDujo1_H3TxorPaqPjKfsOCCwiLJw5BF8otGlsybp3X7iHXJhrH_hDDRxzqU


This is without including the other 6 dark jedi, all of whom employed different fighting styles, all fairly uncommon. I doubt Corran’s dual phase lightsaber is going to be all that effective, especially considering that Kyle and Corran likely sparred countless times by this point. 


New scaling 
 As I already posted in the earlier quote, Katarn is noted as an equal of Viun Galaan and Kyp Durron in the novel FOTJ: backlash. Now, first of all, Luke is impressed by Galaan’s skill (“he was good. Luke gave him that”).
However, what is important about the statement is that Galaan is implied to be capable of beating solidly Luke as he was on sinkhole station ( “he would have been too much for…).Now, that version of Luke dones have a fairly impressive feat: He was able to defeat the strike team lead by Olaris Rhea. Before we get into the power level of said character, I would like to point out how well Luke actually faired while at his absolute weakest, towards the end of the fight, during which, in addition to his exhaustion, he had sustained several injuries. 
we see him blitzing sith sabers:


Abyss wrote:The exit panel opened. Luke found himself standing faceplate-to-faceplate with four surprised enemies. Two were small and female, and two were large and male. He put a trio of blaster bolts through the largest male’s chest and ignited his lightsaber in the faceplate of the other male, then retreated to the rear of the lift and used the Force to depress the activation lever.


And holding the upper hand against Rhea: 

Abyss wrote:Through their vac suit armor, neither of them was taking much damage—but it would not be long before someone slipped, and when that happened, the end would come quickly. Luke continued to strike and counterstrike, his head starting to spin as his air scrubbers strained to keep pace with his exertions and the atmosphere bleeding from his gashed suit. The Sith woman fought like a shenbit, never letting up, never hesitating, never pausing. It was all Luke could do to stay between her and the wall, and he used the Force to keep her trapped in front of him, using her like a shield to keep the girl from slipping around to attack his flanks.


Rhea was a fairly powerful Sith Lord. In fact, she was chosen to take down Luke (despite them describing him as “very powerful in the force) and retrieve Ship, a clear testament to her skill: 

Omen wrote:Lord Vol and I have handpicked a single strike team to bring against this Skywalker. He—”

I—felt someone very powerful in the Force,” she said, her voice slightly shaky and laced with an uncertainty that Vestara had never before heard from her. It made her stomach clench. “Strong in the power of the light side. A Jedi … a great Master.”



She is also superior to sith master Xal, who is implied to be capable of taking down Vestara with a single exertion of TK: 

Abyss wrote:Had Lady Rhea not been standing there, Vestara was quite sure that response would have been a Force spike through her own heart.”
“Taking her lead from Lady Rhea, Vestara leaned slightly forward and turned to lock gazes with Xal. It was a terrible affront for a mere apprentice to face a Master in such a manner. And that affront would suggest to the entire crew that Lady Rhea’s power was so great that even her charges felt secure in challenging Xal.”


Now, based on the ranking system of the lost tribe, which values strength in the force above all, both Xal and Rhea should be above Gavar Khai. Khai is kept in high regard by Lord Taalon for his power and chosen as part of a mission to the maw: 


Allies wrote:"And I select only the strongest and most powerful Sith to accompany me now," said Taalon. "Khai. You and Faal will accompany me."


Around a year later, in the novel ascension, he faces Vestara and is defeated after a good fight. On his own admission, Vestara had grown significantly since the last time he had see her, yet she later admits the only reason she performed as well as she did was because of his mental state at the time, a result of Abeloth’s grasp on him: 


Ascension wrote:His mind—he wasn’t the way he used to be. I think that’s why I was able to win against him at all—because he wasn’t as focused. He was so proud of being Sith, so proud of what the Lost Tribe had accomplished. Now he’s—he was—blindly following Abeloth.


Note that Vestara is noted, on multiple occasions, even by Luke Skywalker himself, as an extremely powerful force user and the most promising student of the lost tribe. By Apocalypse her feats include easily besting sith sabers and giving trouble to Jaina Solo. 

Ultimately, this is the scaling: Katarn~Viun Galaan>>Sinkhole station Luke( beginning of the fight)>>Near death Luke>Olaris Rhea>>Xal>Gavar Khai>/~Apocalypse!Vestara Khai( “exceptionally strong”)>>>>Sith sabers 

If you want to play the accolades game then Rhea herself is easily comparable to Corran. Regardless, this scaling does put Katarn on a pretty high level in both lightsaber combat and force abilities. I’ll wait for something for Corran. 

Conclusion 
So, here are the established points: 


  • Katarn is chosen over Corran before the objective of the mission changes, which is reinforced by Luke choosing Katarn’s equal in Kyp to support him 
  • Corran’s feat in Apocalypse is impressive, but Katarn has feats of stamina on this level before his prime. 
  • Corran gets no scaling from Galen Marek or shadow guards.
  • Katarn’s scaling from the lost tribe places him on a fairly high level in his era.
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SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)  Empty Re: SS - Corran Horn (Greysentinel365) vs Kyle Katarn (MasterCilghal)

on November 12th 2019, 3:33 pm

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