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SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger)

on April 30th 2020, 1:21 pm
Great "quality" of post, looking forward to the response
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator | Champion of the Light
Moderator | Champion of the Light

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger)

on May 12th 2020, 12:14 pm
Message reputation : 100% (10 votes)
ARCANN UNBOUND?

“Valkorion believed he could start something new and different here, but in the end he only taught his heirs to be every bit the Sith he was.”


@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:As far as I can tell, you can at best claim reliably that base KOTFE Outlander is the most powerful character in the chain bound under Yoda’s supremacy quotes, but as demonstrated above, such power is microbial compared to the might Arcann possesses. For this line of scaling to be relevant, you would have to prove that the tier 9’s of the PT are not just more powerful than base KOTFE Outlander, but massively, absurdly more powerful than him by many orders of magnitude in the same way Valklander and Arcann are. I find such an endeavor to be doubtful, given the feats and scaling the Outlander benefits from as mentioned above.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ayAu5OkvwGY

I. VALKORION

Valkorion is a Sith entity during KOTFE. This is a factual statement from the in-game codex that was a hot topic for many years, and as I see it, the proponents of Valkorion wank never managed to definitively prove he isn't a Sith, so I see no reason to award them the luxury of exempting him from Darth Sidious’s supremacy quotes as of TPM and ROTS.

A) THE ETERNAL EMPIRE

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Image1

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Unknown

According to Heskal, the Knights of Zakuul are "an order that has stood for over a thousand years." The in-game codex elucidates that it was Valkorion who "repurposed" the prehistoric Zakuulan leadership "to form the Knights of Zakuul." It therefore follows that Vitiate had discovered Zakuul and adopted the Valkorion persona as far back as 4,631 BBY, a millennium before KOTFE and seven centuries before Revan.

B) EXPLICIT CONFIRMATION AS SITH

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Ancient_Sith_entity

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Vitiat11

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The Old Republic Encyclopedia "is written entirely in-universe"; however, it makes a reference to the Battle of Yavin from ANH, an event thousands of years after the scope of the game. The book, even though written from the perspective of 3,640 BBY, can therefore be presumed to be omniscient. And with its omniscient knowledge and authority, it calls Tenebrae a "Sith Lord" when, as proven above, he was already Valkorion. The character's codex entry also states in plain terms that "Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity," and that "The Immortal Emperor is [merely] his latest mask." A similar dichotomy is in play between Palpatine and Darth Sidious where the former is merely a mask, a public persona, worn by the latter to conceal his true nature.

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Screenshot_20200326_150146

If Valkorion is called a Sith Lord before KOTFE by an omniscient source, why should that status be inexplicably removed for the expansion? Quotes have no expiration date; a piece of evidence remains valid until actively contradicted - and no, him openly turning on the Sith Empire and being "unburdened by archaic Sith teachings" doesn't meet that standard because all of that could be said about Darth Bane as well. If you wish to divorce Valkorion from the Sith, the burden of proof is on you to show he was any different before and after the start of KOTFE, and also to overcome a statement expressly still identifying him as a Sith entity.

C) MOTIVES

Valkorion’s goal throughout the Eternal Empire story arc is to reclaim the Eternal Throne and rule for himself again after he is killed by his son. He "evaded death by infiltrating the mind of the Outlander," becoming "trapped" there for the remainder of his existence. He was unable to dominate the Outlander’s mind, so he had to try to coax the Outlander to believe that he was on their side. Throughout the story, he makes numerous appeals to the Outlander that he has changed as a person, that he genuinely wants to help the Outlander and place them on the Throne, and that his own time has passed. On one occasion he pretends to abandon the Outlander on Odessen, and upon his supposed return, claims to have "walked among the stars, [seeing] the people of Zakuul suffer under [his] daughter’s barbaric rule." Of course at the end Valkorion drops all pretense: he betrays the Outlander, tries to steal their body and rule for himself again, admits his lies, reveals how he truly views the concept of family, and how he thinks everyone else are "nothing but motes of filth, drowning in the chaos of the void" until he, "a god," enters their lives. To quote the Joker from The Dark Knight: "In their last moments, people show you who they really are." And Valkorion, deep down, was a narcissist and a manipulative psychopath who pretended to be someone else for his own gain and macabre enjoyment. Him saying that he isn’t Sith is about as sincere as Palpatine claiming he loves democracy and the Republic; he only kept up the facade to deceive the Outlander.

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 6456626-1692927658-64550

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mlmuz2rSOW0&t=9m34s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iSpUH8CGjs&t=5m20s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbTdLy3xO3E

-- -- --

Recall Vitiate’s speech at the end of the Jedi Knight storyline. His goal even beyond galactic annihilation and ultimate power was to "spend eternity becoming everything: a farmer, an artist, a simple man." He didn’t merely desire power for power’s sake, but to experience life over and over again in different ways from various perspectives and in sundry vocations. “Valkorion” is merely one of millions of identities Tenebrae planned to assume over time. One might then argue that him changing his persona so many times indicates he’s not really Sith, but this isn’t a case of him genuinely changing or having a split personality, rather there always being a sort of “master personality” that masquerades as different people but is always in control and cognizant of what he’s doing. Vitiate mentioning committing omnicide and becoming a farmer in the same scene proves his true essence always was, is, and would be that of a Sith regardless of outward appearance. Indeed, as the codex puts it, "Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity [...] The Immortal Emperor is his latest mask."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LWxQarHbv7g&t=6m44s

D) POWER

Valkorion is immeasurably more powerful than Arcann. At the start of KOTFE, he incapacitates Arcann with a single blast of lightning. In the finale of KOTET, Valkorion immobilizes Arcann, Vaylin and the Outlander all at once for over 30 seconds. It’s unclear whether this is literal or merely a metaphor for a telepathic struggle of wills, but either way, it portrays Valkorion as an entity of enormously greater Force and/or willpower than Arcann.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2g7BwwggxFI&t=20m30s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbTdLy3xO3E&t=11m8s

-- -- --

But of course, Valkorion is inferior to Darth Sidious, for the latter is unequivocally the most powerful Sith Lord to have ever lived as of the prequel trilogy. During the Clone Wars, he also stated be "on the verge of becoming the most powerful tyrant the galaxy has ever known" due to being "Well versed in the ways of the Force," making it clear the accolade refers to Force power and binds Force-using tyrants of any denomination, Sith or otherwise. Arcann would therefore be fodderized with even greater impunity by Sidious - and by Darth Krayt, given his power also falls within this tier, and quite possibly exceeds it.

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II. THE ALLIANCE COMMANDER

With the release of Onslaught, the Alliance Commander has the option to formally merge the Eternal Alliance with the Republic or the Sith Empire, and personally re/join the Jedi High Council or the Dark Council, respectively. Your own post seems to treat both light side and dark side options as equally valid given your repeated references to Valkorion’s feats from the dark side choices, so running with that trend, peak Commander is bound under Yoda and Darth Sidious given the latter two’s status as the most powerful Jedi and Sith ever, respectively. Given the Commander’s repeated victories over Arcann, it’s safe to say he is the more powerful of the two, and therefore Arcann is beneath TPM Sidious as well.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cAm4yhNPQBo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XrkBWO6liLo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZFc2RKGc84s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkAqfPMxT5s

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Yoda_m10

-- -- --

Yoda isn’t just the strongest Jedi to have ever existed, but he is outright called the "most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known," with no caveats regarding factions or Force philosophy. Therefore, even if the Alliance Commander chooses not to align with the Jedi Order again, but remains predominantly a light side character, they still qualify as an enemy of the dark side as they have opposed Arcann, Vaylin, and Valkorion even after having trained under Satele Shan and Darth Marr, and continue to oppose the Sith Empire as well as Tenebrae’s newly revealed hive-mind weapon into the future. Moreover, if Senya is spared, Arcann purges himself of hatred and rage, becoming a devout adherent of the light and a staunch opponent of the dark side as it manifests in his sister and father, making Yoda’s accolade applicable to him directly as well.

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known…

--- --- --- --- ---

PROBABLE CONFUSION

“Error has occurred: Catastrophic failure.”


@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:What you failed to acknowledge while writing this part of your post is...there is no direct connection between Arcann and Krayt. Your attempt at lowballing Arcann’s feat in Chapter 8 and trying to compare it to Anakin’s theta storm feat notwithstanding, there is no link that concretely proves that Arcann is above Krayt, or vice versa.

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Here we see Wyyrlok has a relatively lengthy engagement with the newly-resurrected Darth Andeddu. While Wyyrlok struggles at first, he overcomes Andeddu’s initial assault and kills him with illusions. That said, it’s clear Wyyrlok is strained from the effort, as the last scan shows him sweating profusely after the attack. This indicates the battle was in no way a stomp, and Wyyrlok was genuinely strained from his duel with the God-King of Prakith. We have no reason to believe Andeddu was exceptionally more powerful here than he was during life, and if anything he would be weaker due to the fact that he’s expending energy dragging around a literal corpse as explained in the scans above. Given the chronology of Star Wars, Darth Andeddu could have lived at no time other than the Hundred Year Darkness, as he hailed from, and returned to, Prakith in the Deep Core, whereas the ancient Sith after the First Conflict were cut off from, and forgot about, Republic space, largely sequestered in the Stygian Caldera in the Esstran sector in the Outer Rim Territories (credit to Joe Bongiorno for piecing together this information). As such, Andeddu scales beneath the Exiles, who in turn scale beneath Star Forge Malak to a ridiculous degree, who is far below Revan Reborn, etc. This being the same Darth Wyyrlok who was able to somewhat contend with, or at least not get stomped by, the Reborn Emperor Krayt in their duel. Of course, Reborn Krayt is repeatedly stated to be more powerful than ever, which would include earlier incarnations of Krayt that had not deteriorated to the extent he had by 130 ABY.

The point of bringing this up isn’t necessarily to say that Andeddu scales to Krayt, but rather that there is a foreseeable limit to the extent Vong Krayt can scale above the likes of Andeddu, with no proof supporting the idea that Andeddu grew infinitely more powerful being trapped in a holocron for millenia nor proof that Vong Krayt scales to characters that would support this notion (i.e. Vong Krayt scaling above PT tier 9’s would imply Andeddu did indeed grow infinitely more powerful, but he doesn’t, and if anything his fights with both Cade and the Imperial Knights prove deterioration and limitations to the power he can bring to bear in combat without exhausting himself). This circles back to my point of cross-era debates being a matter of probability based on the respective feats and lines of scaling each character has and determining the more likely victor. To summarize going off of this thought:

I think we have differing definitions of “a direct connection,” because what you’ve done with Andeddu is exactly what establishing a connection between the characters means, and so is what I’ve done with comparing Anakin and Arcann’s feats. They’re not concrete only to the extent of the premises - we still try to refute their veracity - but the logical deductions themselves are valid.

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:We are operating with a range of probabilities here, and as such what I can do is establish parameters that detail the extent of scaling (and thus feats) that Arcann benefits from, the lack of scaling (and thus feats) that Krayt benefits from, and Krayt’s own limitations as a combatant due to the Vong coral seeds to make the probability all but certain that Arcann annihilates Darth Krayt in rather embarrassing fashion. Again, it’s not 100% concrete or certain, but that’s inherent to any cross-era debate where a character is far from being locked under PT supremacy statements. To put this another way: If you can’t prove that Krayt’s feats and scaling are even comparable to the likes of Revan Reborn or SoR HoT, what are the odds that Krayt is going to stand a chance against Arcann, who I have proven is absurdly beyond both?

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Instead of trying to pick apart Arcann’s standing as being massively superior to titans such as Revan Reborn and Emperor Vitiate, my opponent has essentially gone the route of trying to scale Vong Krayt over this mountain, and thus if he fails to do so, Krayt plummets to his death, even if the connection isn’t 100% concrete as explained above. This tangent will be especially important as the debate continues and Krayt’s limitations are discussed in further detail).

But let’s put your Andeddu argument aside for now, as I’m more perplexed by your justification for Arcann’s victory in these paragraphs specifically. From what I understand, your point is that if I fail to prove Krayt is above Arcann, he loses, because somehow probability dictates that Krayt’s alleged dearth of feats and scaling makes it less likely for him to triumph over Arcann who is apparently swimming in them. That’s where you lose me, because Krayt having less material wouldn’t make it more probable for him to be below Arcann; it would just make him more unknown. Consider that in the context of a math equation where you have to solve for x: you wouldn’t give x a random value and conclude it’s less than, let’s say, 17, if you don’t first know the values of all the other variables.

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Math_equation

To reverse this idea, here’s the famous ship feat of Cade Skywalker:

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In Legacy #5, Cade throws a rather sizeable spacecraft a considerable distance; in red is indicated the height of the ship and in blue is its width, so you may see from the bottom scan just how far he tossed it. He did this while high on death sticks, which dampened his connection to the Force (Legacy # 3 ). The Jedi then remove the death sticks out of his system and re-train him in the ways of the Force (Legacy # 11 ). Cade also receives additional training from the Sith (Legacy # 17 ). He is put into the Embrace of Pain where he learns to focus his anger into a weapon of the dark side (Legacy # 18 ), as can be seen from his prior failure and consequent success to perceive just how messed up Darth Krayt’s body truly is (Legacy # 19 ). He should thus be far more powerful when he got stalemated by Darth Stryfe in a telekinetic war than when he tossed the ship (Legacy # 31 ). Stryfe - Cade’s equal - was utterly dominated by Saarai (Legacy # 34 ), whose own powers were "nascent" in comparison to Darth Wyyrlok III (Legacy: War # 1), who himself has his dark side abilities "surpassed" (Insider # 88) and his skill in lightning and telekinesis "far outstripped" (Insider # 113) by Vong Krayt.

By your logic, I could claim it’s probable that Arcann is less powerful than Krayt because his telekinetic feats don’t measure up to the above. In reality, the feat at the foundation of this scaling chain is disparate in nature to what you have presented for Arcann so far, making them impossible to compare to one another. The general rule of thumb in debating is that unless you can establish a firm limit for your opponent and prove your character transcends it, it’s impossible to know which one of them is superior between them.

Does that make sense? I hope it does, because I’m not sure I could explain the concept in any more basic terms than this. Like, I’m not even necessarily disagreeing on your take that this is more of a game of probability than certainty; I’m simply pointing out how what you’re saying is just a failure in elementary logic that can easily be turned back on you, and the question of who is more likely to win remains unanswered.

--- --- --- --- ---

THE SNAKE WHO BELIEVES HIMSELF A DRAGON

“Your pleas for attention are pathetic. It’s time to end you.”


@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:(As an aside to the judges: It is important to note that Azronger conceded every single chain in the line of scaling I provided for Arcann, as they are the backbone of my argument and serve as the basis for the level Arcann is operating at.

I didn’t even comment on your scaling in my opener, whereas concession implies that I argued against your stance but eventually yielded. I’d politely request that you stop framing my silence as some sort of victory for you to beguile the judges to your side. Not very nice.

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:And we essentially have a snap of Valklander’s fingers (i.e. his demonstration of power in KOTFE Chapter 5) being vastly more powerful than Act 3 HoT, who is significantly beyond Act 3 Vitiate, who is vastly beyond Novel Vitiate, who is infinitely more powerful than Nyriss, who can instantly disintegrate powerful force users, leaving only a pile of ash.

Think about what you’re saying here. Valkorion’s demonstration of power amounted to killing a few Knights of Zakuul, blowing up some Skytroopers, and knocking down some metal plates. That’s absolutely pathetic. The Knights near the epicenter (i.e. where the attack’s energies would be concentrated and do the most damage to individual targets) didn’t even get disintegrated. To remind you, these Knights are of the same ilk as those who’ve been beaten and tossed around by Lana Beniko, a Sith Lord whose powers peak at opening a reinforced door on a Force nexus. A far cry from Darth Nyriss ashing Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge, no?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D34rwrhoaDs&t=1m

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHCH_Bz75hg&t=1m51s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHCH_Bz75hg&t=4m4s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mlmuz2rSOW0&t=15m40s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IHCH_Bz75hg&t=13m57s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP2xdsUvNvU&t=14m

If the Hero as of Act III is “vastly” less powerful than that, then I wouldn’t bet on him being above or even on par druggie Cade who’s got that dandy shuttle feat. The kinetic energy required to toss the thing that distance is far greater than what is needed to knock down a few metal plates. Moreover, this indicates some disconnect between the scaling as you’ve presented it and the limitations imposed by the actual feats. The most likely explanation is that the weakened Vitiate in Act III is not more powerful than he was in Revan, the titular character merely having overestimated the usefulness of his allies in a fight against the Emperor. After all, Nyriss was able to nearly B-team Surik and Scourge in a saber duel and incinerate them with a charged burst of lightning, and Vitiate was "infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been," and previously in the novel was able to make Scourge shiver on the floor in a fetal position "in less than a second" with telepathy. 300 years later, as you yourself note, Scourge would have been “far more intimate” with the scope and details of Vitiate’s power, and would have known with more accuracy that he’d be of no use against the Emperor.

Star Wars: The Old Republic - Revan wrote:“You are bold to speak to me in this way,” he stated. “And because you are right, I will reward your initiative … this time. When Nyriss falls, you will be first in line for her seat on the Dark Council.”

“Thank you, Lord Emperor,” Scourge said with a bow.

“If your information proves false, however,” the Emperor added, “you will suffer a fate more terrible than anything you can imagine.”

As he spoke, the dark circles of his eyes seemed to fill with a swirling red mist, and for a brief instant the Emperor gave Scourge a glimpse of his true self.

Scourge cried out in anguish as the Emperor’s mind brushed against his, then he collapsed to the floor, shaking like a child. The touch lasted less than a second, but in that time he witnessed indescribable horrors that dwarfed anything the dark side could conjure even in his worst nightmares. And beneath the formless terrors lurked the unbearable Void, the pure emptiness of total annihilation.

It was over as quickly as it had begun, the awful vision retreating into his subconscious like a repressed memory as Scourge picked himself up off the floor. Neither Captain Yarri nor the robed Sith made any move to help him.

PS: None of the evidence you’ve cited proves Vitiate was at full power in Act III, even if the Hero took his time. Scourge saying "he will recover quickly" doesn’t give a precise estimate (an hour, ten hours?), and giving him time to "gather his strength" doesn’t tell us how much strength he was able to gather.

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Regarding Arcann only blocking a small fraction of the overall energy...consider the following:

A: When Valklander unleashes the lightning storm, it is Valkorion controlling the Outlander’s body, not the Outlander. This is not a case where the Outlander is trying to harness energy far beyond his capability to handle, thus spiralling out of control: this is a case where Valkorion is channeling energy absurdly beneath his full potency, but the body is simply incapable of handling the energy Valkorion is bringing to bear and thus energy is “leaking out.” Valkorion isn’t some imbecile who can’t direct a fraction of his full potency at the target he is trying to destroy; he’s not just wildly shooting lightning everywhere.

B: Why would you assume the leaking energy is as or more powerful than the stream of energy Valkorion is directly harnessing and focusing to annihilate Arcann? The stray bolts being “bigger” or having a wider fan doesn’t mean anything. Hell, the whole point is that Valkorion is condensing most of the energy into a single stream aimed directly at Arcann, while the leaking lightning is just being released indiscriminately and thus not being directly focused.

The uncontrolled bolts only appear once Valkorion extends his arms toward Arcann and begins firing; he’s clearly aiming for his son but the lightning ends up spewing all over the place before it ever hits its intended target. I therefore have no reason to believe he’s somehow succeeding at condensing the lightning into a singular stream when the exact opposite seems to be the case. Valkorion is explicitly failing at directing and containing the energy that was meant for Arcann. This doesn’t have to mean he's an imbecile, though. The Outlander’s body was close to bursting; what happened can be likened to opening a shaken soda can: the energy was inevitably going to leak out in all directions, leading only a very small portion of it to hit Arcann.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8LE0qgLoxsM&t=60s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bORtir3YwJE&t=3m37s

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Your own argument works against you here: The fact that the ship pilots are not incinerated is indicative of the fact that the stray leaking lightning is massively weaker than the stream channeled at Arcann, given that even a relative weakling like Nyriss can do infinitely more than what the stray lightning does to the pilots...which is pretty straightforward and logical.

Even were your scaling valid, it still would not defeat my argument. You’re overlooking the fact that tutaminis is an inherently more difficult ability than Force lightning: the latter "can be used untrained," while "it is a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi Masters to deflect such bursts." You might bring up Revan easily deflecting Nyriss’s lightning as evidence that Arcann can do it too, but the circumstances differ between the two showings: Revan only had to absorb a single burst from Nyriss and could throw it back at her once her output ceased, whereas Arcann was bombarded with a continuous barrage of lightning that didn’t allow him to harness the power into a counterattack nor dissipate it as new energy was constantly coming at him until his defenses were overloaded. Yoda was in a similar conundrum against Darth Sidious where he was "ready to throw back at the Sith Lord the moment his attack stopped. But Palpatine didn’t stop; the Force lightning came in a steady crackle, building more and more, until neither of them could hold it any longer." It’s still therefore possible for Arcann to have been overpowered by much weaker lightning than Nyriss’s yet for the scaling to remain valid. And by consequence, the comparison with the theta storm feat also remains valid.

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Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith junior novelization wrote:As he reached Palpatine’s pod, the Sith Lord hit him with another blast of blue lightning that knocked Yoda’s lightsaber out of his hand. Palpatine’s lips curled in anticipated triumph, and the dark side pulsed as he drew even more Force lightning to his bidding.

Yoda caught it. The blue energy built into a glowing ball in his hand, ready to throw back at the Sith Lord the moment his attack stopped. But Palpatine didn’t stop; the Force lightning came in a steady crackle, building more and more, until neither of them could hold it any longer, and the blast knocked them both out of the pod.

_________________
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Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator | Champion of the Light
Moderator | Champion of the Light

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger)

on May 12th 2020, 12:15 pm
Message reputation : 100% (10 votes)
THE WRATH OF THE DRAGON

“The galaxy withers in chaos and disorder. It requires a man of vision. I am that man of vision. I am the new Emperor.”


I. THE MUSTAFAR DUEL


@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:I’m not going to disagree with you that the Anakin on Mustafar is more powerful than the one who performed the theta storm feat: he is, after all, a tier 9. What I disagree with vehemently, however, is the idea that Kenobi is anywhere near Anakin in a vacuum. Both George Lucas and Nick Gillard explicitly shoot down the notion that Kenobi is relative to Anakin in power. Gillard states that the difference between an 8 and a 9 is enormous while specifically referencing Obi Wan for comparison:

Gillard goes as far as to say that the duel explains how Obi Wan is able to defeat Anakin despite this “enormous” difference in ability between the two, namely Obi-Wan’s intimacy with Anakin and emotional maturity, which is also backed by George Lucas:

This is supported in the ROTS Novel itself, where Kenobi becomes certain that Anakin will defeat him and is essentially begging Anakin to slow down his attacks, despite Kenobi knowing Anakin’s moves inside and out, barely having to think to anticipate his attacks, and being the master of the most energy-conservative form (this method of energy conversation can also explain the TK-barrier exchange):

There is no doubt that Anakin is “enormously” beyond Kenobi in a vacuum per G canon. The question of how Kenobi was able to compete with and defeat Anakin, despite Obi Wan explicitly not being able to compete with the Emperor and Anakin being as strong as the Emperor, is also answered by G canon and the ROTS adult and junior novelizations, which override any other sources on the matter. Kenobi does not scale to the feats of Anakin, Yoda, or Sidious in any way.

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 1935072468

Azronger in his opener wrote:Obi-Wan Kenobi engages in a marathon lightsaber duel with Darth Vader across the Mustafar mineral refinery. Near the beginning he has an epiphany of sorts where he lets go of his earthly tethers and starts contending with the Sith Lord for real, partly because of his chosen lightsaber form and his intimate familiarity with Vader’s style, but also because he was genuinely strong enough - it cannot be denied that he was able to match Vader’s Force augmentation blow for blow and was comfortably outside the Sith Lord’s domination range, even if Vader was somewhat more powerful overall.

I don’t see how your argument does anything to refute my main point: Obi-Wan was strong enough to augment himself to matching Vader’s blows for several long minutes. Him knowing Vader’s style or Vader being more powerful in the end doesn’t change that fact, because stylistic know-how has nothing to do with Force power/augmentation, and in a vacuum we have no idea how an "enormous" edge manifests itself in combat - we only have the fight itself to show us that, and in the fight Obi-Wan matches Vader blow-for-blow. Vader’s defeat being the product of his arrogance and making mistakes is also just a reference to this scene and isn’t germane to my argument.

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:being the master of the most energy-conservative form (this method of energy conversation can also explain the TK-barrier exchange):

I don’t want to strawman you here, so I’ll just ask: is your argument that Anakin was fatigued when Obi-Wan broke his Force shield? If so, I’ve not seen any evidence of that. This is the same guy who could push himself past his limits to hold back a theta storm for minutes on end, and here he’s tapping deeper into the Force than he ever has before. If that isn’t your argument, though, then I’d ask you to clarify what it is precisely.

As of now, Obi-Wan being able to muster more power with five seconds of exertion than Sidious could in the middle of his lightsaber sequences stands.

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Furthermore, Lucas claims that Anakin is as strong as the Emperor, whereas Kenobi is explicitly stated to not be able to compete with the Emperor by both Lucas and Yoda:

Sidious has attributes like lightning that Anakin doesn’t - Yoda and Mace struggled immensely with that, far more than with his dueling. It’s not a one-to-one comparison even if Anakin is "as strong as the Emperor" in an overall sense. Again, the duel itself tells us all we need to know.

II. OBI-WAN’S POWER


@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:This is capping.

While Kenobi had indeed “continued his Jedi exercises” and “had not allowed his reflexes to become dull”, this does not mean Kenobi is at the same level he was at in ROTS. In fact, It’s implied that Kenobi was being weakened as a result of all the Jedi dying due to the events of Order 66, having been fed by the force-ability of his fellow jedi and hearing every scream of death echo through the force, which broke his heart a little more each time:

These quotes are applicable to Obi-Wan immediately post-Order 66 i.e. still during ROTS. Were your theory true, we would have seen a decline towards the end of the movie, yet he goes on to match Darth Vader and draw deeper into the Force than he ever had. Mere hours later, "Still physically and emotionally exhausted from his death duel with Anakin," which "expended him to his mental and physical limits," he runs faster than any Jedi or Sith in history, to the point where his body is beginning to be torn apart on the atomic level, when motivated by the infant Luke Skywalker’s survival - a seemingly larger motivator than fighting for his own life or racing to save Qui-Gon Jinn’s. You see, he did indeed have a mental breakdown in the immediate aftermath of Order 66, but with a pep talk from Yoda, was able to pull himself together, "Scrubbed clean" of his trauma.

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:A curve of knuckle, skinned, black scab corrugated with dirt and leaking red-The fringe of fray at the cuff of a beige sleeve, dark, crusted with splatter from the death of a general-The tawny swirl of grain in wine-dark tabletop of polished Alderaanian kriin-These were what Obi-Wan Kenobi could look at without starting to shake.

The walls of the small conference room on Tantive IV were too featureless to hold his attention; to look at a wall allowed his mind to wander . . .

And the shaking began.

The shaking got worse when he met the ancient green stare of the tiny alien seated across the table from him, for that wrinkled leather skin and those tufts of withered hair were his earliest memory, and they reminded Obi-Wan of the friends who had died today.

The shaking got worse still when he turned to the other being in the room, because he wore politician's robes that reminded Obi-Wan of the enemy who yet lived.

The deception. The death of Jedi Masters he had admired, of Jedi Knights who had been his friends. The death of his oath to Qui-Gon.

The death of Anakin.

Anakin must have fallen along with Mace and Agen, Saesee and Kit; fallen along with the Temple.

Along with the Order itself.

Ashes.

Ashes and dust.

Twenty-five thousand years wiped from existence in a single day.

All the dreams. All the promises.

All the children . . .

"We took them from their homes." Obi-Wan fought to stay in his chair; the pain inside him demanded motion. It became wave after wave of tremors. "We promised their families-"

"Control yourself, you must; still Jedi, you are!"

"Yes, Master Yoda." That scab on his knuckle-focused on that, he could suppress the shaking. "Yes, we are Jedi. But what if we're the last?"

"If the last we are, unchanged our duty is." Yoda settled his chin onto hands folded over the head of his gimer stick. He looked every day of his nearly nine hundred years. "While one Jedi lives, survive the Order does. Resist the darkness with every breath, we must."

He lifted his head and the stick angled to poke Obi-Wan in the shin. "Especially the darkness in ourselves, young one. Of the dark side, despair is."

The simple truth of this called to him. Even despair is attachment: it is a grip clenched upon pain.

Slowly, very slowly, Obi-Wan Kenobi remembered what it was to be a Jedi.

He leaned back in his chair and covered his face with both hands, inhaling a thin stream of air between his palms; into himself with the air he brought pain and guilt and remorse, and as he exhaled, they trailed away and vanished in the air.

He breathed out his whole life.

Everything he had done, everything he had been, friends and enemies, dreams and hopes and fears.

Empty, he found clarity. Scrubbed clean, the Force shone through him. He sat up and nodded to Yoda.

Star Wars: Lone Wolf - A Tale of Obi-Wan and Luke wrote:Still physically and emotionally exhausted from his death duel with Anakin, Obi-Wan wasn't sure. And wasn't sure he cared.

Darth, Obi-Wan reminded himself. Darth Vader.

He and Luke had only a very short window. A search at the spaceport divulged that the next transport for Space Station Kwenn, an Outer Rim hub, was leaving in just four hours.

From there, they would be on their way to Tatooine.

Star Wars: Lone Wolf - A Tale of Obi-Wan and Luke wrote:The bloodwolf alone comprehends death.

And, therefore, the sweet pungency of life; howling his mournful wisdom, into the immeasurable night, to his estranged brethren the stars.

A bloodwolf is fearless. And though the Wise Prince will fight fang-and-claw to the death, maim and kill-

He also runs.

At a dead sprint, a bloodwolf, cub in jaws, can achieve velocities of eighty kilometers per hour.

On the Smuggler's Moon, a Jedi Master with his newborn Padawan ran faster.

Nar Shaddaa itself, circling the massive jewel of Nal Hutta, spins on its axis at a respectable one hundred and seventy kilometers per hour..

Obi-Wan Kenobi ran faster.

And on a sand-lacerated mesa, a podracer utterly butchers distances at six hundred kilometers per hour.

Obi-Wan-

Ran-

Faster.

The Jedi Master ran over one hundred and sixty-five meters per second.

More than six hundred kilometers per hour.

No one, not Jedi, not Sith, had ever duplicated such superhuman locomotion.

Was Obi-Wan flying? He didn't know.

But he knew that, this time, he was not running from the blaster fire of destroyer droids. He was not running to save his own life.

He was not even running to save Qui-Gon from the slaying fire of Darth Maul's singing blade.

He was running ... to save the child he loved.

To call him a blur, a smear of speed, was to substitute poor poetry in favor of truth.

Space contracted - time distended.

Obi-Wan was a fulmination on reality.

Obi-Wan was Truth.

Obi-Wan literally blazed with kinetic light as he blistered through the Nar Shaddaan streets. And with every impossible angle he cornered, every slow-moving raindrop he dodged, every being he spared spontaneous combustion from contact with his supernatural momentum, the Jedi Master felt his muscles, his atoms, his very essence, rebelling into pandemonium.

Obi-Wan was - factually - flying apart.

Luke, for his part, seemed to be enjoying the ride.

Obi-Wan knew the Dark Jedi couldn't be far behind. He did not look back to see if they were gaining. Physics, if not the Force, forbade it. Maybe he had taken them by surprise, and maybe they couldn't match pace with a Jedi Master devouring the fuel of desperation, but he couldn't keep this clip up forever. Even much longer.

Star Wars: Lone Wolf - A Tale of Obi-Wan and Luke wrote:Obi-Wan was a Master of the Jedi arts, true, but even if his fatal duel with Anakin hadn't expended him to his mental and physical limits, his failed supersonic flight from the Dark Jedi and the wound he'd suffered dueling Fomadu had depleted not just his body but his Force reserves. Even Qui-Gon had fallen to a Sith apprentice under less duress.

-- -- --

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:There are also various quotes describing how this impacted Yoda as well:

Star Wars Head-to-Head in particular uses this as reasoning for the likes of Darth Vader to be “too powerful” for Yoda to handle at this point, despite Yoda practicing his skills and lightsaber techniques:

It is entirely possible that Kenobi too was “slowed down” and weakened by the destruction of the Jedi Order, as Yoda was, despite keeping up his training.

Yoda and Obi-Wan are two different people with different psychologies and experiences. Yoda, for one, was not broken by Order 66 initially like Obi-Wan was, and encouraged the latter to overcome his trauma. What broke Yoda was his fight with Sidious, wherein he comprehended the failure of the Jedi in its totality and absoluteness, and - essentially synonymous with that - his personal failure in its totality and absoluteness. The text expounds that "He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him," making it clear that Obi-Wan was never subject to this same revelation, making it a false analogy to apply Yoda’s dejection to him as well.

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith junior novelization wrote:As he plunged over the edge, Yoda realized that Palpatine was right about one thing. He, Yoda, had indeed been arrogant. It is a flaw more and more common among Jedi, he had told Obi-Wan once. Too sure of themselves, they are. And he had fallen into the same trap himself.

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:There came a turning point in the clash of the light against the dark.

It did not come from a flash of lightning or slash of energy blade, though there were these in plenty; it did not come from a flying kick or a surgically precise punch, though these were traded, too.

It came as the battle shifted from the holding office to the great Chancellor's Podium; it came as the hydraulic lift beneath the Podium raised it on its tower of durasteel a hundred meters and more, so that it became a laserpoint of battle flaring at the focus of the vast emptiness of the Senate Arena; it came as the Force and the podium's controls ripped delegation pods free of the curving walls and made of them hammers, battering rams, catapult stones crashing and crushing against each other in a rolling thunder-roar that echoed the Senate's cheers for the galaxy's new Emperor.

It came when the avatar of light resolved into the lineage of the Jedi; when the lineage of the Jedi refined into one single Jedi.

It came when Yoda found himself alone against the dark.

In that lightning-speared tornado of feet and fists and blades and bashing machines, his vision finally pierced the darkness that had clouded the Force.

Finally, he saw the truth.

This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known...

just-

didn't-

have it.

He'd never had it. He had lost before he started.

He had lost before he was born.

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi-

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

The new Sith could not be destroyed with a lightsaber; they could not be burned away by any torch of the Force. The brighter his light, the darker their shadow. How could one win a war against the dark, when war itself had become the dark's own weapon?

He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him.

Hmmm, Yoda thought. A problem this is . . .

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:He released his robe so that it flapped upward, making a sort of drogue that righted him in the air so that he fell feetfirst into the speeder's passenger seat beside Bail Organa.

While Yoda strapped himself in, the Senator from Alderaan pulled the rented speeder through a turn that would have impressed Anakin Skywalker, and shot away toward the nearest intersection of Coruscant's congested skyways.

Yoda's eyes squeezed closed.

"Master Yoda? Are you wounded?"

"Only my pride," Yoda said, and meant it, though Bail could not possibly understand how deep that wound went, nor how it bled. "Only my pride."

III. THE TATOOINE DUEL

On Tatooine, Obi-Wan was similarly motivated by Luke’s survival. His "mission" to protect Luke kept him "mindful of the present" as opposed to dwelling on the past, determined to be ready for "Whatever tomorrow may bring." When he heard about the "unusual increase of atrocities committed by the Tusken Raiders," his first thought was to make sure Luke is safe. When he learned the Tuskens are led by A’Sharad Hett, he banished all thoughts of the Skywalkers from his mind so as to prevent A’Sharad from learning of Luke’s existence, convinced that the former Jedi would slaughter the infant without a second thought. He further emptied himself of any thoughts whatsoever, knowing that "any such thoughts would probably get him killed." In essence, Obi-Wan was in his usual element, empty and serene, like against Grievous and Vader. However, despite his inner tranquility, "Ben knew he wasn’t fighting for his own life. He was fighting for Luke’s," making it clear Luke’s survival was still a paramount motivator for him.

The Journal of Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:"It is hard for me to see what the future holds. Fortunately, I have my mission and my ongoing studies of the Force to help me be mindful of the present, as well as the daily rigors of survival on Tatooine. Whatever tomorrow may bring, I must be ready for it.”

Star Wars: The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:Ben Kenobi had been on Tatooine for nearly two years when he learned about an unusual increase of atrocities committed by Tusken Raiders. According to fragmented reports, the Tuskens had attacked three moisture farms and left seven colonists dead in a single day. But what disturbed Kenobi even more than the killings was the unnerving disturbance in the Force that came with them. It was as if a dark presence had touched upon the desert world, creating an almost tangible trace of evil in the air.

Could it be the Sith? Ben didn't know. All he could do was keep a closer eye on Luke.

Star Wars: The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:Ben did not know whether Hett was aware that Anakin Skywalker had become Darth Vader. But if Hett knew—as Qui-Gon's spirit claimed—that Anakin was responsible for killing the Tuskens who tortured his mother, Ben could only imagine what Hett might do if he discovered the existence of Anakin Skywalker's son. Ben suspected that Hett knew nothing about Luke, if only because Luke was still alive. If Hett's sole purpose on Tatooine had been to kill Luke, Luke would probably be dead already. Now, as Hett approached, Ben banished all thoughts of Anakin and Luke from his mind.

Star Wars: The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull. He did not think about how long it had been since he had last used his lightsaber in combat. Nor did he consider that he was older than Hett by at least a decade, or Hett's considerable skills with his own weapons, and that the Tusken was far more experienced at fighting in the desert. Ben knew that any such thoughts would probably only get him killed.

Star Wars: The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:But in the end, Ben knew he wasn't fighting for his own life. He was fighting for Luke's.

Despite bringing his A-game, Kenobi is clearly challenged by Hett. When "Hett launched a powerful kick to his midriff," it "knocked Ben off his feet" and sent him flying through the air. Conversely, when Ben kicked him in retaliation, "Hett grunted, but he didn't go down." Hett was also able to get through Kenobi’s guard by smashing his lightsaber hilt into his jaw, and the strikes which Kenobi did block, "he wasn't doing it with ease."

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:As far as the actual fight between Kenobi and Hett, it’s noted twice that Hett has a considerable terrain advantage:

Despite this, the fight isn’t exactly lengthy, and Kenobi manages to defeat Hett in relatively short order. Essentially, Hett was able to somewhat compete with a Kenobi who doesn’t necessarily scale to ROTS Kenobi despite the text noting twice that Hett had far more experience fighting on the desert terrain and in the desert heat (funny enough, circumstances like these can allow the likes of Kenobi to best Anakin despite the enormous difference between the two in a vacuum). I fail to see how this proves Hett is “a legitimate rival to the same Kenobi that went toe-to-toe with Darth Vader.” For all we know, Hett could be enormously inferior to Kenobi on neutral ground.

It’s rather insulting to a swordmaster of Kenobi’s caliber to suggest that something as trivial as sand beneath his boots would give his opponent a “considerable terrain advantage” when the likes of Qui-Gon Jinn and Darth Maul weren’t bothered by it, nor does it affect either party’s precognition, reflexes, technical skill, or clarity of mind - you know, the things that actually matter in a lightsaber duel. The relatively short duration of the duel is of no significance either as "few duels lasted more than a minute" in general as I explained in my opener. It’s just plain willful ignorance to pretend this fight wouldn’t be hard-fought in any environment because one guy has more experience fighting on sand.

Star Wars: Episode I Journal - Darth Maul wrote:I accelerate my pace, calling on my anger to increase my power. My footwork has never been so brilliant. I use the shifting sand as resistance. My lightness and quickness will defeat this man, with his large body, his heavy movements.

But he is graceful, this Jedi. The sand doesn't seem to hamper him. He is never off balance, no matter where or how I strike.

Our blows send shudders through my body. He meets my strength. Our lightsabers clash and sizzle. Dust and sand rise around us. I never lose my rhythm.

IV. DARTH KRAYT’S STAMINA


@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:This is capping.

The very scans you provided have Cade Skywalker claim the following after a brief exchange with Krayt:

And after the battle Krayt notes “The battle with Skywalker has cost me.” The idea that Krayt is not tiring over the course of the (brief) fight is explicitly contradicted by the text.

The context is right there in your own statement. Fighting Cade was "costing" Krayt inasmuch as the Vong coral seeds were attempting to consume him from within. There’s a reason why, after a fight, he always goes into a healing trance or stasis chamber to combat the infection as opposed to just resting: he isn’t falling victim to regular fatigue that would slow him down, but the infection is simply spreading faster when he is exerting himself in ways other than to prevent its proliferation. As I explained and proved already, Krayt is able to sustain himself in a fight for as long as he needs to at the cost of furthering his own illness, but his combat performance in the moment isn’t undermined.

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:I’m not sure how a brief duel with a far pre-prime Cade Skywalker is supposed to convince the judges that Krayt “has more than enough power to defeat Arcann, and can and will exert as much of it as is needed to get the job done.” What does Cade have to his name that warrants him even being in the discussion with the likes of Revan Reborn, who could “easily” and “instantly” disintegrates Darth Nyriss, who in turn absolutely embarrasses Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge in a fight: This being the same Meetra Surik who slaughtered hundreds of elite sith assassins + Darth Sion + Traya on a “colossal geyser of dark side energy.”

I never claimed Krayt’s “brief duel with a far pre-prime Cade Skywalker is supposed to convince the judges that Krayt ‘has more than enough power to defeat Arcann’”; that’s a textbook strawman. The evidence for that was in other parts of my post; the fight with Cade merely served to illustrate Krayt’s sustainability in spite of his illness.

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:What you’ve shown is essentially that Vong Krayt has significantly drained his stamina fighting characters who have no business being in the same sentence as someone like Revan Reborn, much less Arcann.

Where are you getting that Cade has “no business being in the same sentence as someone like Revan Reborn, much less Arcann”? Seems like a completely baseless claim.

--- --- --- --- ---

AN DEAD UNDEAD ANDEDDU

“You are a coward, Lord Andeddu, and you hid rather than face your foes. You do not deserve your knowledge or your power.”


@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Here we see Wyyrlok has a relatively lengthy engagement with the newly-resurrected Darth Andeddu. While Wyyrlok struggles at first, he overcomes Andeddu’s initial assault and kills him with illusions. That said, it’s clear Wyyrlok is strained from the effort, as the last scan shows him sweating profusely after the attack. This indicates the battle was in no way a stomp, and Wyyrlok was genuinely strained from his duel with the God-King of Prakith. We have no reason to believe Andeddu was exceptionally more powerful here than he was during life, and if anything he would be weaker due to the fact that he’s expending energy dragging around a literal corpse as explained in the scans above. Given the chronology of Star Wars, Darth Andeddu could have lived at no time other than the Hundred Year Darkness, as he hailed from, and returned to, Prakith in the Deep Core, whereas the ancient Sith after the First Conflict were cut off from, and forgot about, Republic space, largely sequestered in the Stygian Caldera in the Esstran sector in the Outer Rim Territories (credit to Joe Bongiorno for piecing together this information). As such, Andeddu scales beneath the Exiles, who in turn scale beneath Star Forge Malak to a ridiculous degree, who is far below Revan Reborn, etc. This being the same Darth Wyyrlok who was able to somewhat contend with, or at least not get stomped by, the Reborn Emperor Krayt in their duel. Of course, Reborn Krayt is repeatedly stated to be more powerful than ever, which would include earlier incarnations of Krayt that had not deteriorated to the extent he had by 130 ABY.

The point of bringing this up isn’t necessarily to say that Andeddu scales to Krayt, but rather that there is a foreseeable limit to the extent Vong Krayt can scale above the likes of Andeddu, with no proof supporting the idea that Andeddu grew infinitely more powerful being trapped in a holocron for millenia nor proof that Vong Krayt scales to characters that would support this notion (i.e. Vong Krayt scaling above PT tier 9’s would imply Andeddu did indeed grow infinitely more powerful, but he doesn’t, and if anything his fights with both Cade and the Imperial Knights prove deterioration and limitations to the power he can bring to bear in combat without exhausting himself). This circles back to my point of cross-era debates being a matter of probability based on the respective feats and lines of scaling each character has and determining the more likely victor. To summarize going off of this thought:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WegT2eLhY4E

I. ANDEDDU’S POWER

First, I want evidence of Andeddu living before Vitiate - simply saying Joe Bongiorno has proven it without citing the proof doesn’t cut it. As of now, it’s unknown whether he’s bound by any of the other ancient Sith, and your argument collapses on that ambiguity alone. Second, you claim that Andeddu would have been weaker because he was animating his corpse. I don’t get this - all he would have had to do is telekinetically move his limbs and keep his body standing. These require microbial effort, so I don’t see why it’s worth mentioning. And third, whilst you are correct in asserting that there is no direct evidence of Andeddu growing in power, there is a precedent for Sith Lords increasing in strength even when trapped inside holocrons and artifacts, so the possibility isn’t ruled out entirely either. This, too, casts enough ambiguity on Andeddu’s power to demolish your argument.

A) LORD DRAMATH

When Tenebrae was just ten years old, he defeated Lord Dramath in combat by breaking his mind and stripping him of his connection to the Force. He then trapped Dramath’s spirit inside a holocron for over a millennium. However, when the Outlander found it, Dramath was capable of sensing Tenebrae’s faint Force essence, demonstrating that he reacquired his Force connection despite being trapped in a holocron on a Force-deprived planet. Moreover, despite being beaten by a 10-year-old Tenebrae before his imprisonment, he was able to survive alongside the Outlander against Arcann and Vaylin after his time in the Holocron, and immediately afterwards was able to drive Valkorion to his knees and permanently wound his essence with a suicide attack, demonstrating an absolutely tremendous increase in power.

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Tenebrae_beat_Dramath_2

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Tenebrae_beat_Dramath

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zX34etY0X7c&t=30s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5u0qwA5XiQM&t=415s

B) KARNESS MUUR

During the Vector crossover event, Karness Muur is stated to "grow more dangerous as the centuries pass." The story begins with Muur’s spirit being imprisoned inside Remulus Dreypa’s oubliette in 3,963 BBY, from which he was not released until the mid-point of the story in 19 BBY. It is therefore likely that "dangerous" in this instance refers to Force power, as there was no way his influence on the galaxy could have increased while he was entombed.

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Muur_grows_in_power

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Muur_was_trapped_for_four_millennia

II. THE FIGHT

You have a very skewed perception of the fight itself. Wyyrlok was taken by surprise by Andeddu’s initial attack, so it’s hardly indicative of parity between them (Arcann himself was caught off-guard by the Outlander’s telekinesis even though he was dominant for the rest of the duel), and he was able to dispel the illusion instantly when he understood it for what it was, whereas Andeddu was already waging a telepathic struggle and was expecting Wyyrlok to retaliate in like manner ("No less powerful for all that! What you believe to be real is what is real! Even your own death! Your mind is no match for mine!" / "We shall see."), but he didn’t even realize it was happening when Wyyrlok started to do it. Wyyrlok tore through all of Andeddu’s fully prepared mental defenses in seconds and convinced him of his own death, killing him. It’s basically a telepathic one-shot accompanied by Andeddu narrating his own death à la Snoke - just because it took effort doesn’t mean it wasn’t a stomp.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=crMUhvb1NJE&t=5m30s

III. WYYRLOK’S POWER

Essence transfer is a disproportionately difficult ability by its nature. "To overcome a spirit already residing in a body is nearly impossible," making the technique "nearly useless without the ability to clone host bodies." An alternative to prepared clone bodies is to telepathically hollow out the victim’s mind to render them an empty shell devoid of consciousness. However, the technique itself functions on that principle: your spirit invades the victim’s body, and "Your consciousness then overrides that other individual’s consciousness." Ergo, a logical and necessary extension of essence transfer’s disproportionate difficulty is high-end telepathy being difficult as the telepathic component is what makes the technique almost impossible to begin with. One would need to be orders of magnitude greater than the opponent to completely snuff out their consciousness on the spot (cf. the extraordinary difficulty of tearing through another’s telekinetic defenses). Even Vitiate required time-intensive rituals to pull this off on his prospective Voices in spite of his extensive mastery of combative sorcery and illusions, demonstrating the steep difficulty curve between even relatively advanced and the absolute top-tier applications of telepathy. As Valkorion, he was likewise unable to override the Outlander’s consciousness even at the very start of KOTFE despite the gargantuan disparity in power.

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Essenc10

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Essence_Transfer

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QqmYCVNvV20&t=21m45s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PTNYICZ8twg&t=14m40s

-- -- --

What Wyyrlok did to Andeddu is, as far as I know, unprecedented: he reduced a fully sentient, cognitively functioning being (who wasn’t just any ordinary bloke but a powerful, ancient Sith Lord), to an eligible host body by obliterating his consciousness practically instantaneously. Not merely rendering him catatonic, but outright killing him. Of course, Wyyrlok didn’t transfer his essence into Andeddu’s husk of a corpse, but he did complete the most difficult step. The gap between Wyyrlok and Andeddu is therefore even bigger than the gap between Valkorion and KOTFE Ch. 1 Outlander. The idea that Krayt is restricted by Wyyrlok sweating a bit after having pulled off what he did is blatantly nonsensical, even were Andeddu bound below Ajunta Pall and co., which at the moment is unproven.

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Character count excluding quotes and formatting: 25,000 / 25,000

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Sjuttiosju
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on May 12th 2020, 12:38 pm
The lord of hunger
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on May 12th 2020, 12:41 pm
shit azronger is destroying hard
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on May 12th 2020, 1:13 pm
@The lord of hunger wrote:shit azronger is destroying hard

At least give Skillz the courtesy of not voicing this opinion, it's pretty disrespectful. You could have just complimented the post and left it at that.
The lord of hunger
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on May 12th 2020, 4:59 pm
ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote:
@The lord of hunger wrote:shit azronger is destroying hard

At least give Skillz the courtesy of not voicing this opinion, it's pretty disrespectful. You could have just complimented the post and left it at that.
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xolthol
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on May 13th 2020, 2:25 am
@Azronger As usual, really impressive post.
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on May 27th 2020, 10:08 am
Message reputation : 100% (7 votes)
Arcann Bound: A Distant Dream

Sometimes, for the dream to live...the dreamer must die.

Valkorion is a Sith entity during KOTFE. This is a factual statement from the in-game codex that was a hot topic for many years, and as I see it, the proponents of Valkorion wank never managed to definitively prove he isn't a Sith, so I see no reason to award them the luxury of exempting him from Darth Sidious’s supremacy quotes as of TPM and ROTS.

https://youtu.be/awgcC3Mg4Zc?t=71

According to Heskal, the Knights of Zakuul are "an order that has stood for over a thousand years." The in-game codex elucidates that it was Valkorion who "repurposed" the prehistoric Zakuulan leadership "to form the Knights of Zakuul." It therefore follows that Vitiate had discovered Zakuul and adopted the Valkorion persona as far back as 4,631 BBY, a millennium before KOTFE and seven centuries before Revan.

Correct.

The Old Republic Encyclopedia "is written entirely in-universe"; however, it makes a reference to the Battle of Yavin from ANH, an event thousands of years after the scope of the game. The book, even though written from the perspective of 3,640 BBY, can therefore be presumed to be omniscient. And with its omniscient knowledge and authority, it calls Tenebrae a "Sith Lord" when, as proven above, he was already Valkorion. The character's codex entry also states in plain terms that "Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity," and that "The Immortal Emperor is [merely] his latest mask." A similar dichotomy is in play between Palpatine and Darth Sidious where the former is merely a mask, a public persona, worn by the latter to conceal his true nature.

https://youtu.be/s8wZOEuPX38?t=49

The Old Republic Encyclopedia does indeed make a reference to the BBY dating system. This does not mean the source is omniscient, however. The SWTORE actually explains why it uses the BBY dating system OOU:

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This tells us that the in-universe writers of the SWTORE are not actually omniscient even if they make reference to the BBY dating system, as we are given an OOU explanation within the Author’s Note section of the book as to why they use the BBY dating system that is not contingent on them being omniscient (i.e. to avoid confusion). To drive this point home, there are aspects of SWTOR that the in-universe writers are blatantly unaware of, such as Revan’s ultimate fate and the future of the conflict between the Republic and Empire:

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Your reasoning on this point serves to mitigate the relevance of the entire argument, but I’ll get into that in a bit. The codex runs into the same issue as the SWTORE, namely that it is not an infallible source nor does it take up an omniscient perspective. We even have examples where the codex goes from this:

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To this:


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There are other examples of the codex being uncertain, such as with the nature of SoR Revan:

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Or how Vaylin’s leadership would affect the people of Zakuul:

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Along with many others. The codex is not a definitive source of information regarding Valkorion’s nature as a Sith, and the expansion goes on to contradict the idea that Valkorion is still a Sith Lord. During the events of KOTFE Chapter 1, Valkorion:


  • Has fully distanced himself from Sith doctrine and philosophy
  • Is master of his own Empire that is radically different from the Sith and seeks to eradicate the Sith
  • Is no longer masquerading as The Emperor of the Sith Empire
  • Explicitly tells the Outlander that he is not a Sith:


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Bullet point 3 is important in particular, as it sheds any reason we would have for believing that Valkorion could be a Sith. To follow your analogy, calling Valkorion a Sith is the equivalent of calling Palpatine the Supreme Chancellor after he has become the Galactic Emperor. While Palpatine did not believe in the tenets of democracy and was merely masquerading as Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, he was still acting as Palpatine the Supreme Chancellor, and thus still fell under the categorization of Chancellor based on association, similar to Valkorion only being a Sith by association during vanilla SWTOR. During SoR and onward, however, the Emperor has been completely disconnected from the Order of the Sith and thus cannot be defined as a Sith based on the criteria above. We really have no reason to not believe Valkorion when he tells the Outlander he is not a Sith.


If Valkorion is called a Sith Lord before KOTFE by an omniscient source, why should that status be inexplicably removed for the expansion? Quotes have no expiration date; a piece of evidence remains valid until actively contradicted - and no, him openly turning on the Sith Empire and being "unburdened by archaic Sith teachings" doesn't meet that standard because all of that could be said about Darth Bane as well. If you wish to divorce Valkorion from the Sith, the burden of proof is on you to show he was any different before and after the start of KOTFE, and also to overcome a statement expressly still identifying him as a Sith entity.

Addressed above; The SWTORE is not an omniscient source, and neither is the codex, while every other piece of evidence available to us disconnects Valkorion from being a Sith. You compare Valkorion turning on the Sith Empire and eschewing their teachings to Darth Bane, but this is a gross simplification, as Darth Bane sought to create his own Sith Order, whereas Valkorion abandoned the Sith to disconnect himself from any form of Sith philosophy and prop up his own Empire and ideology that is completely different from and not based on any Sith doctrine. Darth Bane would still be a Sith by association and ideology; Valkorion is not. An equivalent case would be Darth Bane masquerading as a Sith as a means to an end for the Jedi Order, then ultimately abandoning the Sith completely in both association and ideology and solely being part of the Jedi Order. Darth Bane would no longer be a Sith in that scenario.

Valkorion’s goal throughout the Eternal Empire story arc is to reclaim the Eternal Throne and rule for himself again after he is killed by his son. He "evaded death by infiltrating the mind of the Outlander," becoming "trapped" there for the remainder of his existence. He was unable to dominate the Outlander’s mind, so he had to try to coax the Outlander to believe that he was on their side. Throughout the story, he makes numerous appeals to the Outlander that he has changed as a person, that he genuinely wants to help the Outlander and place them on the Throne, and that his own time has passed. On one occasion he pretends to abandon the Outlander on Odessen, and upon his supposed return, claims to have "walked among the stars, [seeing] the people of Zakuul suffer under [his] daughter’s barbaric rule." Of course at the end Valkorion drops all pretense: he betrays the Outlander, tries to steal their body and rule for himself again, admits his lies, reveals how he truly views the concept of family, and how he thinks everyone else are "nothing but motes of filth, drowning in the chaos of the void" until he, "a god," enters their lives. To quote the Joker from The Dark Knight: "In their last moments, people show you who they really are." And Valkorion, deep down, was a narcissist and a manipulative psychopath who pretended to be someone else for his own gain and macabre enjoyment. Him saying that he isn’t Sith is about as sincere as Palpatine claiming he loves democracy and the Republic; he only kept up the facade to deceive the Outlander.

Recall Vitiate’s speech at the end of the Jedi Knight storyline. His goal even beyond galactic annihilation and ultimate power was to "spend eternity becoming everything: a farmer, an artist, a simple man." He didn’t merely desire power for power’s sake, but to experience life over and over again in different ways from various perspectives and in sundry vocations. “Valkorion” is merely one of millions of identities Tenebrae planned to assume over time. One might then argue that him changing his persona so many times indicates he’s not really Sith, but this isn’t a case of him genuinely changing or having a split personality, rather there always being a sort of “master personality” that masquerades as different people but is always in control and cognizant of what he’s doing. Vitiate mentioning committing omnicide and becoming a farmer in the same scene proves his true essence always was, is, and would be that of a Sith regardless of outward appearance. Indeed, as the codex puts it, "Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity [...] The Immortal Emperor is his latest mask."

https://youtu.be/h-BNuQ7L16o?t=44

Nice character deconstruction. The problem? Valkorion isn’t a Sith either.

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If your point is to illustrate that Valkorion’s whole deal about being a benevolent ruler who found value in the concepts of love and family is cap, you would be correct. But the game itself also supports the idea that none of Valkorion’s occupations encapsulate what he actually is. Tenebrae’s moniker as Emperor of the Sith is considered every bit a mask in the same way Tenebrae’s moniker as Emperor of Zakuul is. The reason the codex calls the Immortal Emperor his “latest mask” is because...Vitiate the Sith Emperor was also a mask. Inherently, Tenebrae is a void that all things fall into and spares no one, wearing whatever mask is necessary to achieve his desires. Scourge notes that the evil of the Emperor dwarfs the dark side itself, and the Sith Empire pretty much unilaterally denounces the Emperor after his true nature and plans are revealed. Master Tol Braga also finds that the Emperor’s true self “transcends both Sith and Jedi” and is “beyond dark”:

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Vitiate’s motives are such that he falls more into the category of an Abelothian being than a Sith, caring nothing for its teachings and seeking to subsume all of existence into himself.  You may argue that Darths Nihilus and Sidious also fall under this category, but the difference is that both of them still wore the mask of the Sith and stayed part of the order of Sith Lords until their deaths. The issue with your argument is that it fails to encapsulate all of the aspects of Valkorion that put him in a unique position as far as not being a Sith. Valkorion isn’t really anything. He can only be defined by what mask he is wearing at the time. And as of SoR and onward, the mask of the Sith is not one of them, which is not something you can say for Darths Sidious/Nihilus/Bane.

Valkorion is immeasurably more powerful than Arcann. At the start of KOTFE, he incapacitates Arcann with a single blast of lightning. In the finale of KOTET, Valkorion immobilizes Arcann, Vaylin and the Outlander all at once for over 30 seconds. It’s unclear whether this is literal or merely a metaphor for a telepathic struggle of wills, but either way, it portrays Valkorion as an entity of enormously greater Force and/or willpower than Arcann.

Yup.

But of course, Valkorion is inferior to Darth Sidious, for the latter is unequivocally the most powerful Sith Lord to have ever lived as of the prequel trilogy. During the Clone Wars, he also stated be "on the verge of becoming the most powerful tyrant the galaxy has ever known" due to being "Well versed in the ways of the Force," making it clear the accolade refers to Force power and binds Force-using tyrants of any denomination, Sith or otherwise. Arcann would therefore be fodderized with even greater impunity by Sidious - and by Darth Krayt, given his power also falls within this tier, and quite possibly exceeds it.

Already addressed the most powerful Sith quotes. Regarding the most powerful tyrant quote...how does that in any way imply Sidious is the most powerful tyrant in Galactic history in terms of force power? Palpatine being “on the verge of becoming the most powerful tyrant the galaxy has ever known” due to being “Well versed in the ways of the force” can be referring to how being well-versed in the ways of the force would help him in his plot to take over the galaxy...like by clouding the foresight of the Jedi Order, allowing him to shroud himself and his true intentions while leading his apprentices against the Jedi. I wouldn’t even say the syntax of the quote is implying a cause and effect relationship between the two. One could just as easily say “A lover of tacos and burritos, Palpatine is on the verge of becoming the most powerful tyrant the galaxy has ever known” and the sentence’s meaning wouldn’t change. I think it’s pretty clear this quote is referring to the fact that Palpatine is on the verge of becoming the first Galactic Emperor, and at best it’s ambiguous/not nearly as clear as you’re making it out to be.

With the release of Onslaught, the Alliance Commander has the option to formally merge the Eternal Alliance with the Republic or the Sith Empire, and personally re/join the Jedi High Council or the Dark Council, respectively. Your own post seems to treat both light side and dark side options as equally valid given your repeated references to Valkorion’s feats from the dark side choices, so running with that trend, peak Commander is bound under Yoda and Darth Sidious given the latter two’s status as the most powerful Jedi and Sith ever, respectively. Given the Commander’s repeated victories over Arcann, it’s safe to say he is the more powerful of the two, and therefore Arcann is beneath TPM Sidious as well.

You counter your own argument with your next paragraph:

Yoda isn’t just the strongest Jedi to have ever existed, but he is outright called the "most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known," with no caveats regarding factions or Force philosophy. Therefore, even if the Alliance Commander chooses not to align with the Jedi Order again, but remains predominantly a light side character, they still qualify as an enemy of the dark side as they have opposed Arcann, Vaylin, and Valkorion even after having trained under Satele Shan and Darth Marr, and continue to oppose the Sith Empire as well as Tenebrae’s newly revealed hive-mind weapon into the future. Moreover, if Senya is spared, Arcann purges himself of hatred and rage, becoming a devout adherent of the light and a staunch opponent of the dark side as it manifests in his sister and father, making Yoda’s accolade applicable to him directly as well.

Choosing to rejoin the Jedi Order or remain with the Alliance is neither a light or a dark side option for the Outlander: both are considered neutral. Whether or not the most powerful Jedi quotes for Yoda apply to the Outlander is ambiguous, but personally my money is on the Outlander having stayed with the alliance. The Outlander at this point had already been training an enclave of force users distinct from the ideology of the Jedi Order, and as such it would make more sense that the Outlander remained with the Alliance rather than merged with the Jedi Order and became a Jedi again:

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Regarding the most powerful foe of darkness quote, this quote for Yoda would contradict the superiority of The Daughter, The Father, and Mortis Anakin, who were all foes of darkness at one point. Luke even as of Dark Empire has matched or surpassed Yoda given his ability to defeat the Reborn Emperor in a lightsaber duel with only an “elementary” Battle Meditation amp from Leia, despite the fact that the Emperor was more powerful at this point than he was in ROTS and was in a youthful clone body to boot.
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Luke knew that without clones to inhabit, Palpatine's spirit would be consigned forever to the void. But Palpatine was able to transfer himself at the last moment. Within a new clone body, the Emperor was more powerful than ever.

Luke’s power “redoubles” after his experiences with the Reborn Emperor, and he goes through vast growth leading up to FOTJ. Even if DE Luke isn’t more powerful than Yoda, FOTJ Luke certainly is, and the narrator of the ROTS Novel is aware of FOTJ Luke, given it’s from the perspective of the real world/Earth. Despite this, Luke is outclassed by Abeloth’s power:

When we had met before I had felt power in him, but now, after his experiences with the Emperor Reborn, his power had been redoubled. Physically he looked a bit haggard and worn, with the flesh around his eyes having tightened and wrinkles appearing at their corners. I knew we were the same age chronologically, but in experience he far surpassed me.

It was no good. Abeloth had a dozen times the Force strength Luke had, and he could do no more than keep her from crushing his throat.

“Abeloth.” Luke repressed a sigh. “She's here. Somewhere. Experimenting. Using the Force with greater strength than I ever did, certainly."

This story happened a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away. It is already over. Nothing can be done to change it.

It is a story of love and loss, brotherhood and betrayal, courage and sacrifice and the death of dreams. It is a story of the blurred line between our best and our worst.

It is the story of the end of an age.

A strange thing about stories-Though this all happened so long ago and so far away that words cannot describe the time or the distance, it is also happening right now. Right here.

It is happening as you read these words.

This is how twenty-five millennia come to a close. Corruption and treachery have crushed a thousand years of peace. This is not just the end of a republic; night is falling on civilization itself.

This is the twilight of the Jedi.

The end starts now.

Abeloth in turn is inferior to the Celestials:

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on May 27th 2020, 10:09 am
Message reputation : 100% (4 votes)
Ergo Yoda’s status as the most powerful foe of darkness is contradicted. With this quote in mind though, I want to get into that point I mentioned near the beginning of my post about your argument shooting itself in the foot. Clearly you have no issue with the premises that:

  • The in-universe writers of SWTORE are omniscient due to the fact that they mention the BBY dating system 
  • Yoda’s quote referring to him being the most powerful foe the darkness has ever known somehow doesn’t contradict the superiority of The Daughter/The Father/Mortis Anakin

See where I’m going here?

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Essentially, if you are arguing the SWTORE is IU omniscient because of the fact that it uses the BBY dating system, you are claiming that the writers are aware of the existence of Sidious at least up until the events of ANH. Furthermore, as you have no qualms with quotes that implicitly include The Ones/Mortakin, I can only assume you realize that the quotes calling Vitiate “history’s most powerful dark side master” and “the most powerful force user who has ever existed” would also apply to Darth Sidious as of the events of ANH. Given the SWTORE was published on October 15th, 2012 and the only potentially valid Sidious supremacy quote to be published afterwards does not actually call him the most powerful Sith Lord (“The most powerful Sith Lord of all and a master of the dark side of the force” bifurcates his dark side mastery and his power as a Sith Lord, thus making it appear this quote is referring to political power, and even if not the quote is not explicitly framed in the context of all eras as Vitiate’s quotes are). As such, if both of your premises hold, Lord Vitiate as of SWTOR is a more powerful Sith Lord than ANH Sidious, retconning both Yoda and Sheev’s superiority.

I think we have differing definitions of “a direct connection,” because what you’ve done with Andeddu is exactly what establishing a connection between the characters means, and so is what I’ve done with comparing Anakin and Arcann’s feats. They’re not concrete only to the extent of the premises - we still try to refute their veracity - but the logical deductions themselves are valid.

While it is true I brought up Darth Andeddu to create a direct connection between how Krayt compares to Arcann, the difference between our comparisons is that mine establishes an upper limit for Krayt largely through a single direct showing and quotes that are not contradicted and have clear interpretations, while your argument is contingent on a single shaky scaling chain to create an upper limit for Arcann that Krayt scales above. Your connection is loose and disjointed, mine is not.

But let’s put your Andeddu argument aside for now, as I’m more perplexed by your justification for Arcann’s victory in these paragraphs specifically. From what I understand, your point is that if I fail to prove Krayt is above Arcann, he loses, because somehow probability dictates that Krayt’s alleged dearth of feats and scaling makes it less likely for him to triumph over Arcann who is apparently swimming in them. That’s where you lose me, because Krayt having less material wouldn’t make it more probable for him to be below Arcann; it would just make him more unknown. Consider that in the context of a math equation where you have to solve for x: you wouldn’t give x a random value and conclude it’s less than, let’s say, 17, if you don’t first know the values of all the other variables.

I’d hate to sound like a simpleton here, but the problem is that we are talking about Star Wars debating. When we are arguing to try and figure out which character is more powerful than the other, having a dearth of feats and scaling does make it less probabilistic for him to triumph over a character who is swimming in them. We wouldn’t assume a character who has literally zero feats and scaling would be able to stand up to a character with incredible feats and scaling: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The issue is compounded by the fact that Vong Krayt does have an entire comic series that show his feats and lines of scaling, and they are nowhere near as impressive as Arcann’s feats on Asylum. This isn’t a situation where Krayt only has one or two feats but they imply that he could be in league with the likes of Arcann (ala Nyax or Darish Vol). I agree the probability is made more clear the more we see from a character, and what we’ve seen from Vong Krayt (or at least what you have provided) is simply not as impressive as Arcann’s scaling.

In Legacy #5, Cade throws a rather sizeable spacecraft a considerable distance; in red is indicated the height of the ship and in blue is its width, so you may see from the bottom scan just how far he tossed it. He did this while high on death sticks, which dampened his connection to the Force (Legacy # 3 ). The Jedi then remove the death sticks out of his system and re-train him in the ways of the Force (Legacy # 11 ). Cade also receives additional training from the Sith (Legacy # 17 ). He is put into the Embrace of Pain where he learns to focus his anger into a weapon of the dark side (Legacy # 18 ), as can be seen from his prior failure and consequent success to perceive just how messed up Darth Krayt’s body truly is (Legacy # 19 ). He should thus be far more powerful when he got stalemated by Darth Stryfe in a telekinetic war than when he tossed the ship (Legacy # 31 ). Stryfe - Cade’s equal - was utterly dominated by Saarai (Legacy # 34 ), whose own powers were "nascent" in comparison to Darth Wyyrlok III (Legacy: War # 1), who himself has his dark side abilities "surpassed" (Insider # 88) and his skill in lightning and telekinesis "far outstripped" (Insider # 113) by Vong Krayt.


By your logic, I could claim it’s probable that Arcann is less powerful than Krayt because his telekinetic feats don’t measure up to the above. In reality, the feat at the foundation of this scaling chain is disparate in nature to what you have presented for Arcann so far, making them impossible to compare to one another. The general rule of thumb in debating is that unless you can establish a firm limit for your opponent and prove your character transcends it, it’s impossible to know which one of them is superior between them.


Does that make sense? I hope it does, because I’m not sure I could explain the concept in any more basic terms than this. Like, I’m not even necessarily disagreeing on your take that this is more of a game of probability than certainty; I’m simply pointing out how what you’re saying is just a failure in elementary logic that can easily be turned back on you, and the question of who is more likely to win remains unanswered.

None of what you said here makes sense, no. 

Firstly, while the line of scaling is cool, it fails to compete with the scaling Arcann gets from Exar Kun raising the 215 meter Corsair from Yavin IV with TK in the same way Nihilus raises the Ravager:

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Regardless, your qualm here is with the principle, but I don’t think your example is actually a fair comparison to what I’ve been arguing. Your point with Krayt uses a comparison of feats in a single area of the force to deduce that Krayt is overall more powerful than Arcann. This is a much more disparate argument than my claim that Krayt cannot compete with Arcann’s scaling, because Arcann’s line of scaling is purely relayed through quotes and direct combat showings that imply overall superiority to the prior force users in the chain. I didn’t say Arcann benefits from the feats of his predecessors in the scaling chain for nothing: it serves as a baseline for what Arcann can do or overcome in all aspects of the force. Exar Kun’s TK, Vitiate’s lightning, the Hero’s dueling skill: Arcann’s abilities are far beyond them in every way. The probability question is not answered by saying “well look Arcann is better at this one thing than Krayt,” but rather that Arcann is better in every way than Vong Krayt via feats and scaling. I would not hesitate to put Krayt above Arcann in a particular domain of the force if he showed more ability in that regard than Arcann. Such a scenario would be highly unlikely though, given the sheer depth and variety of feats that Arcann benefits from. 

The point I am trying to make is that if the line of scaling I provided for Arcann makes him scale far above characters with superior feats and scaling in every area of the force than what Krayt has portrayed, then I have valid reason to believe that Arcann is capable of pushing Krayt’s shit in, even if their upper limits can’t be precisely quantified.

I didn’t even comment on your scaling in my opener, whereas concession implies that I argued against your stance but eventually yielded. I’d politely request that you stop framing my silence as some sort of victory for you to beguile the judges to your side. Not very nice.


Think of it as a silent concession. Guess I’ll have to force an open concession. SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 228124001

Think about what you’re saying here. Valkorion’s demonstration of power amounted to killing a few Knights of Zakuul, blowing up some Skytroopers, and knocking down some metal plates. That’s absolutely pathetic. The Knights near the epicenter (i.e. where the attack’s energies would be concentrated and do the most damage to individual targets) didn’t even get disintegrated. To remind you, these Knights are of the same ilk as those who’ve been beaten and tossed around by Lana Beniko, a Sith Lord whose powers peak at opening a reinforced door on a Force nexus. A far cry from Darth Nyriss ashing Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge, no?

Have you perhaps considered that the feat’s impressiveness comes from the fact Valklander was able to unleash these energies in essentially a microsecond? I also don’t know why you’re going on about the quality of the Knights, the impressiveness of the Zakuulan horde is quantified by Valkorion saying they were outmatched (which coincides with the trio being visibly outmatched). This simply means that the horde of Zakuul Knights and Skytroopers that swarmed the trio is collectively more powerful than the foes Outlander scales above. How this feat explicitly contradicts the Hero and Arcann’s scaling above Nyriss is beyond me. 


If the Hero as of Act III is “vastly” less powerful than that, then I wouldn’t bet on him being above or even on par druggie Cade who’s got that dandy shuttle feat. The kinetic energy required to toss the thing that distance is far greater than what is needed to knock down a few metal plates. Moreover, this indicates some disconnect between the scaling as you’ve presented it and the limitations imposed by the actual feats. The most likely explanation is that the weakened Vitiate in Act III is not more powerful than he was in Revan, the titular character merely having overestimated the usefulness of his allies in a fight against the Emperor. After all, Nyriss was able to nearly B-team Surik and Scourge in a saber duel and incinerate them with a charged burst of lightning, and Vitiate was "infinitely more powerful than Darth Nyriss had ever been," and previously in the novel was able to make Scourge shiver on the floor in a fetal position "in less than a second" with telepathy. 300 years later, as you yourself note, Scourge would have been “far more intimate” with the scope and details of Vitiate’s power, and would have known with more accuracy that he’d be of no use against the Emperor.

As explained above, there is no reason to believe HoT’s inferiority to Valklander’s feat contradicts the line of scaling. The idea that Revan simply overestimated the usefulness of his allies despite him knowing they were defeated by Nyriss and arguably overestimating the powers of the Emperor (as outlined in my opener, Revan did not think he was capable of going toe to toe with the Emperor, and that he didn’t stand a chance of defeating the Emperor alone) is a bit ludicrous. Furthermore, Vitiate’s ability to make Scourge bend the knee via revealing his true self earlier in the Novel is not relevant by the end of the Novel when Revan had explicitly taught Scourge and Meetra a method to resist the Emperor’s domination (Sorry about it being sideways):

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Img_1610


Revan’s evaluation of his allies is perfectly valid, and Outlander’s inferiority to Valklander’s feat does not contradict them scaling over Nyriss. Everything still holds.


PS: None of the evidence you’ve cited proves Vitiate was at full power in Act III, even if the Hero took his time. Scourge saying "he will recover quickly" doesn’t give a precise estimate (an hour, ten hours?), and giving him time to "gather his strength" doesn’t tell us how much strength he was able to gather.

When Scourge tells the Hero to not allow the Emperor time to “gather his strength”, he is claiming this in the context of the Emperor recovering quickly, (the definition of recover being brought up in my opener). After the mission, Scourge tells the Hero:

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Which means “the Emperor gathered his strength”, or in other words, the warning of the Emperor recovering came to pass, and you defeated him anyway. You also neglected to take into account the Hero’s hindrances “dissipating [his] energies” fighting through hordes of Sith and the Imperial Guard in the immensely potent dark side nexus of the Dark Temple, along with the fact the Hero is confident he could defeat the Emperor regardless of whether or not he has fully recovered, despite being faced with his true power in Act 2. 

The uncontrolled bolts only appear once Valkorion extends his arms toward Arcann and begins firing; he’s clearly aiming for his son but the lightning ends up spewing all over the place before it ever hits its intended target. I therefore have no reason to believe he’s somehow succeeding at condensing the lightning into a singular stream when the exact opposite seems to be the case. Valkorion is explicitly failing at directing and containing the energy that was meant for Arcann. This doesn’t have to mean he's an imbecile, though. The Outlander’s body was close to bursting; what happened can be likened to opening a shaken soda can: the energy was inevitably going to leak out in all directions, leading only a very small portion of it to hit Arcann.

You completely missed my point here. I was never denying that there were stray bolts that spewed “all over the place” and not hitting Arcann. My contention was that the stream of lightning hitting Arcann is not a mere fraction of the overall potency that Valkorion was unleashing. Your argument is contingent on the notion that the stray bolts are as powerful or even far more powerful than the energy hitting Arcann, but you have not shown any evidence to support this notion. Conversely, I mentioned that given the scaling we already know exists between Nyriss and Arcann, we know that the stray energy that was incapable of disintegrating pilots must have been infinitely weaker than the lightning stream at Arcann.

Even were your scaling valid, it still would not defeat my argument. You’re overlooking the fact that tutaminis is an inherently more difficult ability than Force lightning: the latter
"can be used untrained," while "it is a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi Masters to deflect such bursts." You might bring up Revan easily deflecting Nyriss’s lightning as evidence that Arcann can do it too, but the circumstances differ between the two showings: Revan only had to absorb a single burst from Nyriss and could throw it back at her once her output ceased, whereas Arcann was bombarded with a continuous barrage of lightning that didn’t allow him to harness the power into a counterattack nor dissipate it as new energy was constantly coming at him until his defenses were overloaded. Yoda was in a similar conundrum against Darth Sidious where he was "ready to throw back at the Sith Lord the moment his attack stopped. But Palpatine didn’t stop; the Force lightning came in a steady crackle, building more and more, until neither of them could hold it any longer." It’s still therefore possible for Arcann to have been overpowered by much weaker lightning than Nyriss’s yet for the scaling to remain valid. And by consequence, the comparison with the theta storm feat also remains valid.

What?

If Novel Revan is capable of easily deflecting Nyriss’ lightning storm, then Arcann could do it with his hands tied behind his back. Your explanation of the differences between Valklander’s lightning attack and Nyriss’ does nothing to counter this notion. The point I mentioned above is crucial here: given that Arcann scales absurdly above Novel Revan, the raw energy required to overcome him would be absurdly greater, (i.e. we know the lightning stream Valklander overpowered Arcann with was vastly more powerful than Nyriss’ storm because of Arcann’s vast superiority to Novel Revan). The duration of the two attacks is irrelevant, because it’s a matter of the total energy being unleashed. The total energy in the directed lightning stream is powerful enough to overcome Arcann, while the total energy of Nyriss’ lightning storm is casually reflected by Novel Revan. This is also why you can’t really argue the stray bolts Valklander unleashes against Arcann are even close in power to the directed stream: we already know Valklander is vastly more powerful than Nyriss, ergo the stray bolts being far weaker than Nyriss’ casual lightning (much less her storm) is proof that most of the energy from the stream is directed at Arcann. This may seem like a circular explanation, but it’s a matter of differentiating between the environmental impressiveness of the feat via the already existing line of scaling between Arcann and Nyriss while also recognizing the feat itself shows that Arcann shares parity with an absurdly greater level of power than the Outlander or earlier demonstrations from Valklander. These two notions are not mutually contingent.  

I don’t see how your argument does anything to refute my main point: Obi-Wan was strong enough to augment himself to matching Vader’s blows for several long minutes. Him knowing Vader’s style or Vader being more powerful in the end doesn’t change that fact, because stylistic know-how has nothing to do with Force power/augmentation, and in a vacuum we have no idea how an "enormous" edge manifests itself in combat - we only have the fight itself to show us that, and in the fight Obi-Wan matches Vader blow-for-blow. Vader’s defeat being the product of his arrogance and making mistakes is also just a reference to this scene and isn’t germane to my argument.

Let’s observe the following quotes:

“But it means that a Form III master is unable to mount a counterattack. Yet the minimalist defense preserves the Jedi's reserves while simultaneously tiring an opponent, and an exhausted enemy will eventually slip up, allowing a Form III master to score a victory.”

“Through Form III, a Jedi can open up his or her senses and effectively block incoming blaster strikes with a lightsaber blade. Because of its focus on short, economical movements that provide complete coverage from incoming strikes, Form III saw applications as defense against both ranged and close attacks. Form III emphasizes reducing a combatant's target area, as opposed to some of the more far-reaching, open styles.”

"As this ability grew, he was able to devote less and less of his mental energy to the physical actions of thrust, parry, and counterthrust. This allowed him to keep his mind focused so he could use the Force to anticipate his opponent's moves, while at the same time obscuring and confusing his enemy's own precognitive senses."

"As soon as the blade was drawn, the protective veil went up. Guarding against the Force powers of the enemy and obscuring your own intentions required as much concentration and energy as augmenting your physical prowess or anticipating the moves of your foe."

So, what do all these quotes mean? For one, if we consider my quote from post 2 that indicates Kenobi did not have to expend any effort on predicting and anticipating Anakin’s attacks, this means that Kenobi could focus all his “concentration and energy” on “guarding against the force powers of [Anakin]” and “augmenting [his] physical prowess.” Furthermore, given Kenobi’s “focus on short, economical movements that provide complete coverage from incoming strikes” and “minimalist defense” that “preserves [his] reserves while simultaneously tiring an opponent”, Kenobi can be vastly slower than Anakin and still keep up with him  “blow for blow” (albeit barely) despite the “enormous” difference between the two, because Anakin has to perform much more movement and expend much more energy attacking than Kenobi does defending. Quite frankly, it’s ridiculous for you to claim “enormous” means nigh-equal in this context when we have other explanations for why Kenobi is able to go blow for blow with Anakin.


I don’t want to strawman you here, so I’ll just ask: is your argument that Anakin was fatigued when Obi-Wan broke his Force shield? If so, I’ve not seen any evidence of that. This is the same guy who could push himself past his limits to hold back a theta storm for minutes on end, and here he’s tapping deeper into the Force than he ever has before. If that isn’t your argument, though, then I’d ask you to clarify what it is precisely. As of now, Obi-Wan being able to muster more power with five seconds of exertion than Sidious could in the middle of his lightsaber sequences stands.

The argument is indicated above: Kenobi is expending much less energy than Anakin is while dueling, which gives Kenobi much more ability to concentrate on generating a counterattack with his force powers as Anakin attempts to hammer away at his defenses. The exchange between the two isn’t explicit proof that Kenobi shares parity with Anakin, especially when the highest canon authorities claim this is not the case.


Sidious has attributes like lightning that Anakin doesn’t - Yoda and Mace struggled immensely with that, far more than with his dueling. It’s not a one-to-one comparison even if Anakin is "as strong as the Emperor" in an overall sense. Again, the duel itself tells us all we need to know.

Where is it indicated by George or Yoda that Kenobi not being able to compete with the Emperor is specifically due to the Emperor’s prowess with force lightning? Until proven otherwise, both quotes are referring to Kenobi and the Emperor in an overall sense, i.e. Kenobi is not in the same league as the Emperor in any way.

These quotes are applicable to Obi-Wan immediately post-Order 66 i.e. still during ROTS. Were your theory true, we would have seen a decline towards the end of the movie, yet he goes on to match Darth Vader and draw deeper into the Force than he ever had. Mere hours later, "Still physically and emotionally exhausted from his death duel with Anakin," which "expended him to his mental and physical limits," he runs faster than any Jedi or Sith in history, to the point where his body is beginning to be torn apart on the atomic level, when motivated by the infant Luke Skywalker’s survival - a seemingly larger motivator than fighting for his own life or racing to save Qui-Gon Jinn’s. You see, he did indeed have a mental breakdown in the immediate aftermath of Order 66, but with a pep talk from Yoda, was able to pull himself together, "Scrubbed clean" of his trauma.

The quote from the Heir to the Empire Sourcebook is not applicable to Kenobi during the events of Order 66 and “mere hours afterwards.” The quote is specifically referring to the Jedi who died during Obi-Wan’s time in hiding after the events of ROTS, with each death breaking his heart more each time. Obi-Wan being “scrubbed clean” and emptying himself on the Tantive IV does not contradict this notion: this moment can be akin to a meditation session in which one’s mind becomes clear and euphoric, but does not lead to complete and permanent invulnerability to trauma. And even if we are talking about during the events of Order 66 during ROTS, it is entirely possible that the abrupt and frantic nature of the situation coupled with Kenobi drawing on the force more deeply than he ever had before, reaching his absolute physical and mental limits, allowed him to stave off decline due to immediate effects of Order 66. Ditto for him being able to run faster than any Jedi or Sith in history hours after the fact.  None of this contradicts the notion that 2 years of isolation and continuous and deeper heartbreak could diminish his connection to the force, and there is no evidence to suggest that Kenobi was operating at his absolute physical and mental limits or drawing on the force more deeply than ever against Hett.


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SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger)

on May 27th 2020, 10:09 am
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Yoda and Obi-Wan are two different people with different psychologies and experiences. Yoda, for one, was not broken by Order 66 initially like Obi-Wan was, and encouraged the latter to overcome his trauma. What broke Yoda was his fight with Sidious, wherein he comprehended the failure of the Jedi in its totality and absoluteness, and - essentially synonymous with that - his personal failure in its totality and absoluteness. The text expounds that "He knew, at that instant, that this insight held the hope of the galaxy. But if he fell here, that hope would die with him," making it clear that Obi-Wan was never subject to this same revelation, making it a false analogy to apply Yoda’s dejection to him as well.

...Except the quotes I provided for you explain that Yoda was slowed down and broken by the destruction of the Jedi Order as well. It’s possible that the revelation Yoda received dueling Sidious exacerbated his broken spirit, but it’s undeniable that both Kenobi and Yoda were broken and continued to be broken further after the events of Revenge of the Sith for largely the same reason, and this explicitly causes Yoda to be slowed down and ultimately become vastly weaker. It isn’t absurd for me to seek proof Kenobi did not decline at all 2 years after ROTS given these concerns, especially given your rationale that Kenobi had been keeping up with his exercises also applies to Yoda, who still diminished vastly. 

On Tatooine, Obi-Wan was similarly motivated by Luke’s survival. His "mission" to protect Luke kept him "mindful of the present" as opposed to dwelling on the past, determined to be ready for "Whatever tomorrow may bring." When he heard about the "unusual increase of atrocities committed by the Tusken Raiders," his first thought was to make sure Luke is safe. When he learned the Tuskens are led by A’Sharad Hett, he banished all thoughts of the Skywalkers from his mind so as to prevent A’Sharad from learning of Luke’s existence, convinced that the former Jedi would slaughter the infant without a second thought. He further emptied himself of any thoughts whatsoever, knowing that "any such thoughts would probably get him killed." In essence, Obi-Wan was in his usual element, empty and serene, like against Grievous and Vader. However, despite his inner tranquility, "Ben knew he wasn’t fighting for his own life. He was fighting for Luke’s," making it clear Luke’s survival was still a paramount motivator for him.

None of this precludes his connection to the force being diminished since ROTS. 

Despite bringing his A-game, Kenobi is clearly challenged by Hett. When "Hett launched a powerful kick to his midriff," it "knocked Ben off his feet" and sent him flying through the air. Conversely, when Ben kicked him in retaliation, "Hett grunted, but he didn't go down." Hett was also able to get through Kenobi’s guard by smashing his lightsaber hilt into his jaw, and the strikes which Kenobi did block, "he wasn't doing it with ease."

Even if this incarnation of Kenobi ~ ROTS Kenobi (which you haven’t proven), he is obviously not bringing his A-game to the extent he was against Anakin on Mustafar, where he was pushed to his physical and mental limits while drawing on the force more deeply than ever before. Furthermore, given the quotes in my second post, Kenobi is put in a constant state of desperation with the certainty that he will die fighting Anakin, which is simply not the case with Hett. Regardless of whether or not Hett gave Kenobi a good fight (though delivering glancing physical blows to Kenobi doesn’t prove his parity anymore than Maul delivering a kick to Sidious’ midsection in The Lawless proves his parity), it does not tie Hett to Anakin given the much greater and more intense fight Anakin was able to give Kenobi. This isn’t even factoring in the significant terrain advantage Hett possessed. 

It’s rather insulting to a swordmaster of Kenobi’s caliber to suggest that something as trivial as sand beneath his boots would give his opponent a “considerable terrain advantage” when the likes of Qui-Gon Jinn and Darth Maul weren’t bothered by it, nor does it affect either party’s precognition, reflexes, technical skill, or clarity of mind - you know, the things that actually matter in a lightsaber duel. The relatively short duration of the duel is of no significance either as "few duels lasted more than a minute" in general as I explained in my opener. It’s just plain willful ignorance to pretend this fight wouldn’t be hard-fought in any environment because one guy has more experience fighting on sand.

https://youtu.be/Da2eYsLCn-w?t=77

What’s “just plain willful ignorance” is ignoring both Kenobi’s own thoughts and the opinion of the narrator regarding the desert terrain and heat being relevant factors in the fight. The Jinn and Maul comparison is irrelevant and a false equivalence, as neither is noted as being significantly more experienced fighting in the desert terrain and heat than the other, thus nullifying any potential advantage. Regardless of our personal thoughts on the matter, the text explicitly notes from the POV of Kenobi and the narrator that Hett’s “far [greater] experience” in the terrain and heat is a relevant advantage, and based on how the quote is worded, this is specifically the primary reason that Kenobi is unable to deflect Hett’s blows easily:

Ben blocked each blow, but he wasn't doing it with ease. Hett was far more experienced at fighting on the sand and in the desert heat.

Which casts into doubt the idea that Kenobi couldn’t easily handle Hett on neutral ground. You cannot scale Hett with advantages briefly pressuring Kenobi to Kenobi desperately defending himself with deeper reserves than ever before against Anakin’s onslaught, certain that he will die and being exhausted to his physical and mental limits in the process.  

The context is right there in your own statement. Fighting Cade was "costing" Krayt inasmuch as the Vong coral seeds were attempting to consume him from within. There’s a reason why, after a fight, he always goes into a healing trance or stasis chamber to combat the infection as opposed to just resting: he isn’t falling victim to regular fatigue that would slow him down, but the infection is simply spreading faster when he is exerting himself in ways other than to prevent its proliferation. As I explained and proved already, Krayt is able to sustain himself in a fight for as long as he needs to at the cost of furthering his own illness, but his combat performance in the moment isn’t undermined.

Let’s see what the Vong Coral Seeds do to Krayt:

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The strength of Krayt’s body directly correlates with how much he is being consumed by the Vong Coral Seeds, which in turn directly correlates with how much he is exerting himself fighting the Imperial Knights and Cade. You haven’t really done anything this entire debate to quantify the Imperial Knights or Cade in relation to the titans Arcann scales above, and as a result I’m not sure why I’m even supposed to believe that Vong Krayt as of 130 BBY even scales above Hett. Again, sure, Krayt is far greater in terms of available power, but I’ve yet to see you prove that Krayt can muster that level of strength without destroying his body through exertion in the process. 

PS: When I say “exertion”, I mean exertion insofar as drawing on the force in a fight will worsen the effects of the Vong Coral Seeds, thus diminishing his strength further.

I never claimed Krayt’s “brief duel with a far pre-prime Cade Skywalker is supposed to convince the judges that Krayt ‘has more than enough power to defeat Arcann’”; that’s a textbook strawman. The evidence for that was in other parts of my post; the fight with Cade merely served to illustrate Krayt’s sustainability in spite of his illness.

Well that’s what you have to prove. Vong Krayt is uniquely disconnected from Hett in that despite him being far more powerful, he is physically ailed by the Vong Coral Seeds to the extent that brief exertions of power against the Imperial Knights and Cade diminish his strength significantly. Why should I believe Krayt is capable of defeating Hett given these circumstances?

Where are you getting that Cade has “no business being in the same sentence as someone like Revan Reborn, much less Arcann”? Seems like a completely baseless claim.

Based on the fact that Revan Reborn has vastly superior feats and lines of scaling than anything you have provided for Cade. 

First, I want evidence of Andeddu living before Vitiate - simply saying Joe Bongiorno has proven it without citing the proof doesn’t cut it. As of now, it’s unknown whether he’s bound by any of the other ancient Sith, and your argument collapses on that ambiguity alone. Second, you claim that Andeddu would have been weaker because he was animating his corpse. I don’t get this - all he would have had to do is telekinetically move his limbs and keep his body standing. These require microbial effort, so I don’t see why it’s worth mentioning. And third, whilst you are correct in asserting that there is no direct evidence of Andeddu growing in power, there is a precedent for Sith Lords increasing in strength even when trapped inside holocrons and artifacts, so the possibility isn’t ruled out entirely either. This, too, casts enough ambiguity on Andeddu’s power to demolish your argument.

https://swtor.jedipedia.net/en/itm/andeddus-malevolence

https://swtor.jedipedia.net/en/plc/statue-of-darth-andeddu

Based on the above, Darth Andeddu predates Vitiate’s empire, as Andeddu was a major figure on Korriban despite the fact that Vitiate’s empire didn’t retake Korriban until the start of the GGW. And given that the Sith during the time of Ragnos and Sadow (and prior) were unaware of the location of the Deep Core, it stands to reason that Andeddu must have existed during the time of the Exiles. At the very least, it shows that Andeddu is below the likes of Exar Kun, and thus vastly below Novel Revan and Novel Vitiate, much less Arcann. In reality, Andeddu is most likely below the Exiles, which would make him absolute fodder in comparison to even Star Forge Malak. 

When Tenebrae was just ten years old, he defeated Lord Dramath in combat by breaking his mind and stripping him of his connection to the Force. He then trapped Dramath’s spirit inside a holocron for over a millennium. However, when the Outlander found it, Dramath was capable of sensing Tenebrae’s faint Force essence, demonstrating that he reacquired his Force connection despite being trapped in a holocron on a Force-deprived planet. Moreover, despite being beaten by a 10-year-old Tenebrae before his imprisonment, he was able to survive alongside the Outlander against Arcann and Vaylin after his time in the Holocron, and immediately afterwards was able to drive Valkorion to his knees and permanently wound his essence with a suicide attack, demonstrating an absolutely tremendous increase in power.

Cool. Dramath growth =/= Andeddu growth.

During the Vector crossover event, Karness Muur is stated to "grow more dangerous as the centuries pass." The story begins with Muur’s spirit being imprisoned inside Remulus Dreypa’s oubliette in 3,963 BBY, from which he was not released until the mid-point of the story in 19 BBY. It is therefore likely that "dangerous" in this instance refers to Force power, as there was no way his influence on the galaxy could have increased while he was entombed.

Cool. Muur growth =/= Andeddu Growth. 

You have a very skewed perception of the fight itself. Wyyrlok was taken by surprise by Andeddu’s initial attack, so it’s hardly indicative of parity between them (Arcann himself was caught off-guard by the Outlander’s telekinesis even though he was dominant for the rest of the duel), and he was able to dispel the illusion instantly when he understood it for what it was, whereas Andeddu was already waging a telepathic struggle and was expecting Wyyrlok to retaliate in like manner ("No less powerful for all that! What you believe to be real is what is real! Even your own death! Your mind is no match for mine!" / "We shall see."), but he didn’t even realize it was happening when Wyyrlok started to do it. Wyyrlok tore through all of Andeddu’s fully prepared mental defenses in seconds and convinced him of his own death, killing him. It’s basically a telepathic one-shot accompanied by Andeddu narrating his own death à la Snoke - just because it took effort doesn’t mean it wasn’t a stomp.

I think we have different definitions of what constitutes a stomp. In my vernacular, a stomp is a scenario in which a combatant is able to defeat/destroy the opposing combatant with little to no effort involved. Just because Wyyrlok was able to overcome and destroy Andeddu with one telepathic assault does not mean that the fight was a stomp. This is tantamount to saying Vitiate oneshotted Revan with his force lightning storm and thus stomped him. While you would have a point in illustrating the gap between Wyyrlok and Andeddu if illusion-based attacks were as disproportionately difficult to kill your opponent with as you say, but that is simply not true. 

Essence transfer is a disproportionately difficult ability by its nature. "To overcome a spirit already residing in a body is nearly impossible," making the technique "nearly useless without the ability to clone host bodies." An alternative to prepared clone bodies is to telepathically hollow out the victim’s mind to render them an empty shell devoid of consciousness. However, the technique itself functions on that principle: your spirit invades the victim’s body, and "Your consciousness then overrides that other individual’s consciousness." Ergo, a logical and necessary extension of essence transfer’s disproportionate difficulty is high-end telepathy being difficult as the telepathic component is what makes the technique almost impossible to begin with. One would need to be orders of magnitude greater than the opponent to completely snuff out their consciousness on the spot (cf. the extraordinary difficulty of tearing through another’s telekinetic defenses). Even Vitiate required time-intensive rituals to pull this off on his prospective Voices in spite of his extensive mastery of combative sorcery and illusions, demonstrating the steep difficulty curve between even relatively advanced and the absolute top-tier applications of telepathy. As Valkorion, he was likewise unable to override the Outlander’s consciousness even at the very start of KOTFE despite the gargantuan disparity in power.

I’m not sure how you’re comparing the difficulty of what Wyyrlok did to the difficulty of essence transfer. We see in KOTFE that while Valkorion is unable to override the Outlander’s consciousness through essence transfer/outright mind domination at the very start of KOTFE, he is able to kill the Outlander with illusions multiple times:

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It’s clear from this comparison that using illusions to kill your opponent requires nowhere near the level of disparity that essence transfer or even mind domination require. 

What Wyyrlok did to Andeddu is, as far as I know, unprecedented: he reduced a fully sentient, cognitively functioning being (who wasn’t just any ordinary bloke but a powerful, ancient Sith Lord), to an eligible host body by obliterating his consciousness practically instantaneously. Not merely rendering him catatonic, but outright killing him. Of course, Wyyrlok didn’t transfer his essence into Andeddu’s husk of a corpse, but he did complete the most difficult step. The gap between Wyyrlok and Andeddu is therefore even bigger than the gap between Valkorion and KOTFE Ch. 1 Outlander. The idea that Krayt is restricted by Wyyrlok sweating a bit after having pulled off what he did is blatantly nonsensical, even were Andeddu bound below Ajunta Pall and co., which at the moment is unproven.

Addressed above; killing an opponent with a force illusion does not imply a disparity near the level of what essence transfer or mind domination require. Even if there were a stomp gap between Wyyrlok III and Andeddu, this wouldn’t even imply Wyyrlok is superior to Exar Kun, who is vastly inferior to the likes of Novel Revan and Vitiate.
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger)

on May 27th 2020, 10:56 am
Great posts
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger)

on May 27th 2020, 12:02 pm
SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 1289255181
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

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on May 27th 2020, 2:02 pm
SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 1289255181
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
Level Two

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger)

on May 27th 2020, 2:59 pm
always cool to see these two argue. good shit. albeit, skillz, i wouldnt be posting shit like valk saying that democracy is overrated. az is a sidious fan, and sidious loves democracy.
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

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on May 27th 2020, 4:22 pm
This is an epic fight. Keep going !
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator | Champion of the Light
Moderator | Champion of the Light

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger)

on June 10th 2020, 10:09 am
Message reputation : 100% (10 votes)
THE FOUNDATIONS

"Logic is the last scientific ingredient of Philosophy; its extraction leaves behind only a confusion of non-scientific, pseudo problems."


@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ

I. THE BASICS OF DEBATING


@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:I’d hate to sound like a simpleton here, but the problem is that we are talking about Star Wars debating. When we are arguing to try and figure out which character is more powerful than the other, having a dearth of feats and scaling does make it less probabilistic for him to triumph over a character who is swimming in them. We wouldn’t assume a character who has literally zero feats and scaling would be able to stand up to a character with incredible feats and scaling: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. The issue is compounded by the fact that Vong Krayt does have an entire comic series that show his feats and lines of scaling, and they are nowhere near as impressive as Arcann’s feats on Asylum. This isn’t a situation where Krayt only has one or two feats but they imply that he could be in league with the likes of Arcann (ala Nyax or Darish Vol). I agree the probability is made more clear the more we see from a character, and what we’ve seen from Vong Krayt (or at least what you have provided) is simply not as impressive as Arcann’s scaling.

Your rebuttal does not address anything I have said or provide a rationale for your thinking. “When we are arguing to try and figure out which character is more powerful than the other, having a dearth of feats and scaling does make it less probabilistic for him to triumph over a character who is swimming in them” - this is your claim, but you do not explain why the number of feats matters. “We wouldn’t assume a character who has literally zero feats and scaling would be able to stand up to a character with incredible feats and scaling: extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence” - this is your claim, but it is a red herring since I have already explained that a lack of feats makes one’s prowess unknown; I never made the claim that we would/could/should assume an unknown character be able to compete with a known quantity. Your only justification seems to be “that we are talking about Star Wars debating” as if this particular hobby makes it so we can arbitrarily disregard certain logical axioms and commit fallacies (even though this entire hobby is founded on the exercise of logic), but once again you don’t explain why this being Star Wars debating is a “problem” in the application of basic logic to answer this issue.

Essentially, this is the skeleton of your argument:

Premise 1: Arcann has X feats/scaling
Premise 2: Krayt does not have X feats/scaling
Conclusion: Krayt is incapable of matching X feats/scaling, and thus loses to Arcann

It’s a textbook fallacy of appealing to ignorance. Absence of evidence is not evidence of absence; inactivity does not equate to inability. As I’ve said in my previous post, I could effortlessly turn this back on you with Cade’s telekinesis feat.

Azronger in his second post wrote:But let’s put your Andeddu argument aside for now, as I’m more perplexed by your justification for Arcann’s victory in these paragraphs specifically. From what I understand, your point is that if I fail to prove Krayt is above Arcann, he loses, because somehow probability dictates that Krayt’s alleged dearth of feats and scaling makes it less likely for him to triumph over Arcann who is apparently swimming in them. That’s where you lose me, because Krayt having less material wouldn’t make it more probable for him to be below Arcann; it would just make him more unknown. Consider that in the context of a math equation where you have to solve for x: you wouldn’t give x a random value and conclude it’s less than, let’s say, 17, if you don’t first know the values of all the other variables.

Azronger in his second post wrote:By your logic, I could claim it’s probable that Arcann is less powerful than Krayt because his telekinetic feats don’t measure up to the above. In reality, the feat at the foundation of this scaling chain is disparate in nature to what you have presented for Arcann so far, making them impossible to compare to one another. The general rule of thumb in debating is that unless you can establish a firm limit for your opponent and prove your character transcends it, it’s impossible to know which one of them is superior between them.

-- -- --

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Regardless, your qualm here is with the principle, but I don’t think your example is actually a fair comparison to what I’ve been arguing. Your point with Krayt uses a comparison of feats in a single area of the force to deduce that Krayt is overall more powerful than Arcann. This is a much more disparate argument than my claim that Krayt cannot compete with Arcann’s scaling, because Arcann’s line of scaling is purely relayed through quotes and direct combat showings that imply overall superiority to the prior force users in the chain. I didn’t say Arcann benefits from the feats of his predecessors in the scaling chain for nothing: it serves as a baseline for what Arcann can do or overcome in all aspects of the force. Exar Kun’s TK, Vitiate’s lightning, the Hero’s dueling skill: Arcann’s abilities are far beyond them in every way. The probability question is not answered by saying “well look Arcann is better at this one thing than Krayt,” but rather that Arcann is better in every way than Vong Krayt via feats and scaling. I would not hesitate to put Krayt above Arcann in a particular domain of the force if he showed more ability in that regard than Arcann. Such a scenario would be highly unlikely though, given the sheer depth and variety of feats that Arcann benefits from.

…literally everything you’ve extolled about Arcann also applies to Krayt.

“Your point with Krayt uses a comparison of feats in a single area of the force to deduce that Krayt is overall more powerful than Arcann” - and so did you with Meetra’s dueling feats of beating Sith assassins, Traya and Sion; that was from which you derived your entire scaling chain up to Arcann. You then claim Krayt has nothing to match that, and I reversed your logic by scaling Krayt from Cade’s shuttle feat that Arcann has nothing to match. How is that any different from what you did?

“Arcann’s line of scaling is purely relayed through quotes and direct combat showings that imply overall superiority to the prior force users in the chain” - so are Krayt’s:

https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t2899-ss-the-tyrannical-ten-arcann-xsupremeskillz-vs-darth-krayt-azronger#56675

Azronger in his second post wrote:In Legacy #5, Cade throws a rather sizeable spacecraft a considerable distance; in red is indicated the height of the ship and in blue is its width, so you may see from the bottom scan just how far he tossed it. He did this while high on death sticks, which dampened his connection to the Force (Legacy # 3 ). The Jedi then remove the death sticks out of his system and re-train him in the ways of the Force (Legacy # 11 ). Cade also receives additional training from the Sith (Legacy # 17 ). He is put into the Embrace of Pain where he learns to focus his anger into a weapon of the dark side (Legacy # 18 ), as can be seen from his prior failure and consequent success to perceive just how messed up Darth Krayt’s body truly is (Legacy # 19 ). He should thus be far more powerful when he got stalemated by Darth Stryfe in a telekinetic war than when he tossed the ship (Legacy # 31 ). Stryfe - Cade’s equal - was utterly dominated by Saarai (Legacy # 34 ), whose own powers were "nascent" in comparison to Darth Wyyrlok III (Legacy: War # 1), who himself has his dark side abilities "surpassed" (Insider # 88) and his skill in lightning and telekinesis "far outstripped" (Insider # 113) by Vong Krayt.

“I didn’t say Arcann benefits from the feats of his predecessors in the scaling chain for nothing: it serves as a baseline for what Arcann can do or overcome in all aspects of the force. Exar Kun’s TK, Vitiate’s lightning, the Hero’s dueling skill: Arcann’s abilities are far beyond them in every way” - so are Krayt’s compared to Anakin’s tutaminis, Cade’s TK, and so on.

Your point makes no sense to me.

II. UNBINDING KRAYT

A) DARTH ANDEDDU


@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:https://swtor.jedipedia.net/en/itm/andeddus-malevolence

https://swtor.jedipedia.net/en/plc/statue-of-darth-andeddu

Based on the above, Darth Andeddu predates Vitiate’s empire, as Andeddu was a major figure on Korriban despite the fact that Vitiate’s empire didn’t retake Korriban until the start of the GGW. And given that the Sith during the time of Ragnos and Sadow (and prior) were unaware of the location of the Deep Core, it stands to reason that Andeddu must have existed during the time of the Exiles. At the very least, it shows that Andeddu is below the likes of Exar Kun, and thus vastly below Novel Revan and Novel Vitiate, much less Arcann. In reality, Andeddu is most likely below the Exiles, which would make him absolute fodder in comparison to even Star Forge Malak.

You’ve shown that The Old Republic video game contains two items named “Andeddu’s Malevolence” and “Statue of Darth Andeddu” - the former I don’t get at all, but because of the latter you seem believe Andeddu must have predated Vitiate’s Empire. However, Korriban was captured by the Sith Empire in 3,681 BBY, and vanilla TOR (presumably when you find the statue) starts in 3,640 BBY. TOR also has random Sith like Lord Khreusis and Lord Grathan occupying private strongholds on Korriban and Dromund Kaas, so I don’t see why a statue of Andeddu existing on Korriban means he can’t have had a fortress on the planet in the 41 years between the two events, or that he has to be weaker than Exar Kun. Your argument is a non sequitur.

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Cool. Dramath growth =/= Andeddu growth.

Cool. Muur growth =/= Andeddu Growth.

It looks like my point went over your head. Basically, for this part of your argument to function, you have to prove that anyone up to or below Ch. 8 Outlander’s level is above Darth Andeddu as of Legacy. So far you’ve attempted to prove that Andeddu lived before Exar Kun and is therefore subject to Kun’s MVP quotes (I presume so as I don’t see another way to scale Kun above him). Even were that the case, you would still need to prove that ancient Andeddu =/> Legacy Andeddu. My argument wasn’t meant to provide conclusive evidence of Andeddu growing, but rather to prove that it is still possible for one to make astronomical leaps in power even when trapped inside a holocron, and thus make your job harder. Indeed, the burden of proof is on you as you’re the one making the claim here, so dismissively going “Cool. X growth =/= Andeddu growth” doesn’t help you at all.

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:I’m not sure how you’re comparing the difficulty of what Wyyrlok did to the difficulty of essence transfer. We see in KOTFE that while Valkorion is unable to override the Outlander’s consciousness through essence transfer/outright mind domination at the very start of KOTFE, he is able to kill the Outlander with illusions multiple times:

It’s clear from this comparison that using illusions to kill your opponent requires nowhere near the level of disparity that essence transfer or even mind domination require.

???

Valkorion noting "Illusions can kill" does not mean he was capable of killing the Outlander with illusions… because, you know, the Outlander survived. His express goal was to possess the Outlander’s body as early as KOTFE Chapter 1: "When you helped my son strike me down, I refused to surrender to mortality. My spirit invaded your mind in search of a new host. You resisted." Darth Plagueis separated the Force into three distinct aspects: the anima, life; the pneuma, consciousness; and the aperion, physical reality. He discovered in his studies that a Force-user’s spirit is entirely comprised of the pneuma, or in other words, it is plain consciousness without life energy. The Dark Side Sourcebook also supports this theory with essence transfer functioning on the principle of overriding the victim’s consciousness to make room for one’s own - it is purely a telepathic process. One way to do this is via illusions - the victim is convinced of their own death and therefore their consciousness shatters and dissipates into the void, leaving the body an empty husk ripe for possession. Ergo, if Valkorion could have killed the Outlander with illusions, he would have. But seeing as he couldn’t, the gap between them is smaller than the gap between Wyyrlok and Andeddu.

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B) TELEKINESIS


@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Firstly, while the line of scaling is cool, it fails to compete with the scaling Arcann gets from Exar Kun raising the 215 meter Corsair from Yavin IV with TK in the same way Nihilus raises the Ravager:

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Kinetic_energy_formula

Above is the formula for calculating the kinetic energy of a moving object, wherein m stands for mass, and v stands for velocity. In other words, the kinetic energy (in this case the impressiveness of the feat) of a moving object is half its mass multiplied by its velocity squared. While the Corsair’s mass is greater than that of the ship Cade tossed, the velocity with which Kun allegedly raised it is completely unknown. We also don’t know the effort it took Kun to allegedly accomplish his feat, which is compounded by the fact that he was boosted by the dark side nexus of Yavin IV. He could have done it with 0.1% of his Force reserves, or it could have taken hours of deep meditation and immersion in the moon’s baleful energies to lift the ship. And most damningly, your quote doesn’t even mention telekinesis on Kun’s part. It’s drawing a parallel between him and Nihilus both recommissioning abandoned ships for use in their respective campaigns - that’s it. In the comic itself, Kun notes "Naga Sadow’s ship was perfectly preserved" in the very scene where it’s taking off for the first time, so really, why is it even necessary to assume telekinesis when the quote doesn’t imply it and the comic itself insinuates he simply turned on the ship’s systems?

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So no, you haven’t shown me anything for Arcann that Cade’s feat fails to compete with. And since it’s telekinetic and therefore disparate in nature to any of the feats you’ve argued Arcann scales from, you cannot prove who is stronger between him and Krayt simply by scaling off of arbitrary feats with no relation to each other.

Now that the foundations are set, it’s time to do this the proper way.

--- --- --- --- ---

ARCANN’S LIMITS

"He’s a pussy."

I. BOUND BY QUOTES

A) VALKORION

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:The Old Republic Encyclopedia does indeed make a reference to the BBY dating system. This does not mean the source is omniscient, however. The SWTORE actually explains why it uses the BBY dating system OOU:
This tells us that the in-universe writers of the SWTORE are not actually omniscient even if they make reference to the BBY dating system, as we are given an OOU explanation within the Author’s Note section of the book as to why they use the BBY dating system that is not contingent on them being omniscient (i.e. to avoid confusion).

How does this counter my argument? The out-of-universe explanation of using the BBY dating system to avoid confusion isn’t mutually exclusive with my in-universe explanation. Look at your own deduction:

Premise 1: TORE uses the BBY dating system OOU to avoid confusion
Conclusion: The IU writers of TORE are not omniscient

It’s another non sequitur. There is absolutely no connection between the premise and the conclusion.

Now, according to the very author you are appealing to for your argument, the book "is written entirely in-universe," which unequivocally means that the tidbit about the BBY dating system is also "written entirely in-universe." Ergo, the IU writers of TORE must be omniscient because they know of events past the scope that their book is covering. You can’t cherry-pick one line from the Author’s Note section and ignore the rest and act like they’re mutually exclusive with no justification whatsoever.

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Essentially, if you are arguing the SWTORE is IU omniscient because of the fact that it uses the BBY dating system, you are claiming that the writers are aware of the existence of Sidious at least up until the events of ANH. Furthermore, as you have no qualms with quotes that implicitly include The Ones/Mortakin, I can only assume you realize that the quotes calling Vitiate “history’s most powerful dark side master” and “the most powerful force user who has ever existed” would also apply to Darth Sidious as of the events of ANH. Given the SWTORE was published on October 15th, 2012 and the only potentially valid Sidious supremacy quote to be published afterwards does not actually call him the most powerful Sith Lord (“The most powerful Sith Lord of all and a master of the dark side of the force” bifurcates his dark side mastery and his power as a Sith Lord, thus making it appear this quote is referring to political power, and even if not the quote is not explicitly framed in the context of all eras as Vitiate’s quotes are). As such, if both of your premises hold, Lord Vitiate as of SWTOR is a more powerful Sith Lord than ANH Sidious, retconning both Yoda and Sheev’s superiority.

I clearly said in my previous post that the book is written from the viewpoint of 3,640 BBY. You yourself legitimized this view by posting evidence of the book declaring Revan’s final fate and the outcome of the renewed war between the Republic and the Sith Empire as unknown. An analogous case would be The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia, whose writers are omniscient and therefore obviously know of events past 150 ABY, yet chose to write from that perspective anyway. Similarly, the writers of TORE are clearly aware of events past 3,640 BBY as evidenced by the reference to the BBY dating system, but chose to write from that viewpoint regardless. Ergo, Vitiate being "history’s most powerful dark side master" doesn’t include Darth Sidious because the latest point in history from the perspective of Vitiate’s accolade is 3,640 BBY, whereas Palpatine was born in 82 BBY. I do not understand how I am supposedly shooting myself in the foot or contradicting myself with this argument; as I see it, TORE’s omniscience guarantees Valkorion’s status as a Sith Lord and thus binds him beneath TPM Sidious.

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Omnisc10

Azronger in his second post wrote:The Old Republic Encyclopedia "is written entirely in-universe"; however, it makes a reference to the Battle of Yavin from ANH, an event thousands of years after the scope of the game. The book, even though written from the perspective of 3,640 BBY, can therefore be presumed to be omniscient. And with its omniscient knowledge and authority, it calls Tenebrae a "Sith Lord" when, as proven above, he was already Valkorion. The character's codex entry also states in plain terms that "Valkorion is an ancient Sith entity," and that "The Immortal Emperor is [merely] his latest mask." A similar dichotomy is in play between Palpatine and Darth Sidious where the former is merely a mask, a public persona, worn by the latter to conceal his true nature.

-- -- --

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:The codex runs into the same issue as the SWTORE, namely that it is not an infallible source nor does it take up an omniscient perspective. We even have examples where the codex goes from this:

To this:

There are other examples of the codex being uncertain, such as with the nature of SoR Revan:

Or how Vaylin’s leadership would affect the people of Zakuul:

Along with many others. The codex is not a definitive source of information regarding Valkorion’s nature as a Sith

Even if the codex is not omniscient, it’s still a source of information that updates as the player progresses through the story, conveying information that the rest of the game doesn’t necessarily reveal. And even after the speculation about Vitiate possibly never wanting to consume the galaxy and his reveal as Valkorion as the head of a third faction divorced from the Sith… the codex still calls him a "Sith entity."

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Along with many others. The codex is not a definitive source of information regarding Valkorion’s nature as a Sith, and the expansion goes on to contradict the idea that Valkorion is still a Sith Lord. During the events of KOTFE Chapter 1, Valkorion:


Has fully distanced himself from Sith doctrine and philosophy
Is master of his own Empire that is radically different from the Sith and seeks to eradicate the Sith
Is no longer masquerading as The Emperor of the Sith Empire
Explicitly tells the Outlander that he is not a Sith:
Bullet point 3 is important in particular, as it sheds any reason we would have for believing that Valkorion could be a Sith. To follow your analogy, calling Valkorion a Sith is the equivalent of calling Palpatine the Supreme Chancellor after he has become the Galactic Emperor. While Palpatine did not believe in the tenets of democracy and was merely masquerading as Supreme Chancellor Palpatine, he was still acting as Palpatine the Supreme Chancellor, and thus still fell under the categorization of Chancellor based on association, similar to Valkorion only being a Sith by association during vanilla SWTOR. During SoR and onward, however, the Emperor has been completely disconnected from the Order of the Sith and thus cannot be defined as a Sith based on the criteria above. We really have no reason to not believe Valkorion when he tells the Outlander he is not a Sith.

...except that he’s still identified as a Sith by a third party source that is cognizant of the developments of KOTFE, whereas the guy himself lies through his teeth on multiple occasions as I’ve already proven.

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Addressed above; The SWTORE is not an omniscient source, and neither is the codex, while every other piece of evidence available to us disconnects Valkorion from being a Sith. You compare Valkorion turning on the Sith Empire and eschewing their teachings to Darth Bane, but this is a gross simplification, as Darth Bane sought to create his own Sith Order, whereas Valkorion abandoned the Sith to disconnect himself from any form of Sith philosophy and prop up his own Empire and ideology that is completely different from and not based on any Sith doctrine. Darth Bane would still be a Sith by association and ideology; Valkorion is not. An equivalent case would be Darth Bane masquerading as a Sith as a means to an end for the Jedi Order, then ultimately abandoning the Sith completely in both association and ideology and solely being part of the Jedi Order. Darth Bane would no longer be a Sith in that scenario.

Nice character deconstruction. The problem? Valkorion isn’t a Sith either.

If your point is to illustrate that Valkorion’s whole deal about being a benevolent ruler who found value in the concepts of love and family is cap, you would be correct. But the game itself also supports the idea that none of Valkorion’s occupations encapsulate what he actually is. Tenebrae’s moniker as Emperor of the Sith is considered every bit a mask in the same way Tenebrae’s moniker as Emperor of Zakuul is. The reason the codex calls the Immortal Emperor his “latest mask” is because...Vitiate the Sith Emperor was also a mask. Inherently, Tenebrae is a void that all things fall into and spares no one, wearing whatever mask is necessary to achieve his desires. Scourge notes that the evil of the Emperor dwarfs the dark side itself, and the Sith Empire pretty much unilaterally denounces the Emperor after his true nature and plans are revealed. Master Tol Braga also finds that the Emperor’s true self “transcends both Sith and Jedi” and is “beyond dark”:

Vitiate’s motives are such that he falls more into the category of an Abelothian being than a Sith, caring nothing for its teachings and seeking to subsume all of existence into himself. You may argue that Darths Nihilus and Sidious also fall under this category, but the difference is that both of them still wore the mask of the Sith and stayed part of the order of Sith Lords until their deaths. The issue with your argument is that it fails to encapsulate all of the aspects of Valkorion that put him in a unique position as far as not being a Sith. Valkorion isn’t really anything. He can only be defined by what mask he is wearing at the time. And as of SoR and onward, the mask of the Sith is not one of them, which is not something you can say for Darths Sidious/Nihilus/Bane.

No, he disconnected himself from "archaic Sith teachings," like Darth Bane, but not Sith philosophy as a whole since he’s still called a Sith entity in the very same paragraph. And again like Bane turning on and seeking to destroy the Sith Brotherhood of Darkness, Tenebrae abdicating as Emperor of the Sith does not remove his Sith status; the latter is not contingent on the former, and the former being a mask doesn’t mean the latter is. Your arbitrary, fan-fiction designation of him as “an Abelothian being” (whatever that even means; to my understanding Abeloth didn’t seek to eradicate existence but to rebuild the Mortis family to assuage her loneliness) or him craving omnicide doesn’t conflict with him being labeled a "Sith entity," since, as you yourself note, other bearers of the Sith mantle have had similar goals and been described in similarly grandiloquent manner by their fawning subordinates. Count Dooku described Darth Sidious as "darkness beyond darkness" and "a black hole of the Force"; and Lord Hethrir came "to understand Palpatine not as a man but as a vessel for the darkness of the universe, an avatar of the dark side itself." And he, too, wished to subsume the universe into his being. None of what you’ve argued prevents Valkorion, or Sidious, or anyone else, from being a Sith.

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:Now the scene below subtly altered, though to the physical eye there was no change. Powered by the dark side, Dooku’s perception took the measure of those below him with exhilarating precision.

Kenobi was luminous, a transparent being, a window onto a sunlit meadow of the Force.

Skywalker was a storm cloud, flickering with dangerous lightning, building the rotation that threatens a tornado.

And then there was Palpatine, of course: he was beyond power. He showed nothing of what might be within. Though seen with the eyes of the dark side itself, Palpatine was an event horizon. Beneath his entirely ordinary surface was absolute, perfect nothingness. Darkness beyond darkness.

A black hole of the Force.

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Sheev_is_an_avatar_of_the_dark_side

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@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Already addressed the most powerful Sith quotes. Regarding the most powerful tyrant quote...how does that in any way imply Sidious is the most powerful tyrant in Galactic history in terms of force power? Palpatine being “on the verge of becoming the most powerful tyrant the galaxy has ever known” due to being “Well versed in the ways of the force” can be referring to how being well-versed in the ways of the force would help him in his plot to take over the galaxy...like by clouding the foresight of the Jedi Order, allowing him to shroud himself and his true intentions while leading his apprentices against the Jedi. I wouldn’t even say the syntax of the quote is implying a cause and effect relationship between the two. One could just as easily say “A lover of tacos and burritos, Palpatine is on the verge of becoming the most powerful tyrant the galaxy has ever known” and the sentence’s meaning wouldn’t change. I think it’s pretty clear this quote is referring to the fact that Palpatine is on the verge of becoming the first Galactic Emperor, and at best it’s ambiguous/not nearly as clear as you’re making it out to be.

I’ve discussed the quote with native English speakers before starting this debate, and they agreed that it does pose a cause-and-effect between Palpatine’s proficiency with the Force and his impending status as "the most powerful tyrant the galaxy has ever known." However, I’m not fluent enough to deal with your objection myself, and I can’t consult them for the purposes of this debate, so I’ll refrain from commenting on this point.

B) THE ALLIANCE COMMANDER


@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Choosing to rejoin the Jedi Order or remain with the Alliance is neither a light or a dark side option for the Outlander: both are considered neutral. Whether or not the most powerful Jedi quotes for Yoda apply to the Outlander is ambiguous, but personally my money is on the Outlander having stayed with the alliance. The Outlander at this point had already been training an enclave of force users distinct from the ideology of the Jedi Order, and as such it would make more sense that the Outlander remained with the Alliance rather than merged with the Jedi Order and became a Jedi again:

All paths in the game are equally canonical, so no, it’s not ambiguous whether the Outlander is bound by the PT titans: he very clearly is given him re/joining the Sith and the Jedi are C-canon. By consequence, Arcann is even less powerful than TPM Maul.

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Maul_is_the_most_powerful_Sith_ever

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Regarding the most powerful foe of darkness quote, this quote for Yoda would contradict the superiority of The Daughter, The Father, and Mortis Anakin, who were all foes of darkness at one point. Luke even as of Dark Empire has matched or surpassed Yoda given his ability to defeat the Reborn Emperor in a lightsaber duel with only an “elementary” Battle Meditation amp from Leia, despite the fact that the Emperor was more powerful at this point than he was in ROTS and was in a youthful clone body to boot.

Luke’s power “redoubles” after his experiences with the Reborn Emperor, and he goes through vast growth leading up to FOTJ. Even if DE Luke isn’t more powerful than Yoda, FOTJ Luke certainly is, and the narrator of the ROTS Novel is aware of FOTJ Luke, given it’s from the perspective of the real world/Earth. Despite this, Luke is outclassed by Abeloth’s power:

Abeloth in turn is inferior to the Celestials:

Ergo Yoda’s status as the most powerful foe of darkness is contradicted.

Characters being later retconned to be outside a quote doesn’t render said quote invalid or meaningless; to argue such would be to commit the fallacy of composition. Therefore, only those specific characters - in this case, the Daughter and Anakin - aren’t bound by the statement, but Arcann is, because he has nothing contradicting it. Yoda may not technically be the "most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known," but he is still the third most powerful and above anyone who isn’t the Daughter or Mortis Anakin (I would argue the Father doesn’t strictly qualify given his job is to keep balance between the light and dark rather than oppose the latter).

_________________
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on June 10th 2020, 10:09 am
Message reputation : 100% (9 votes)

II. BOUND BY FEATS


@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Think of it as a silent concession. Guess I’ll have to force an open concession.

Have you perhaps considered that the feat’s impressiveness comes from the fact Valklander was able to unleash these energies in essentially a microsecond? I also don’t know why you’re going on about the quality of the Knights, the impressiveness of the Zakuulan horde is quantified by Valkorion saying they were outmatched (which coincides with the trio being visibly outmatched). This simply means that the horde of Zakuul Knights and Skytroopers that swarmed the trio is collectively more powerful than the foes Outlander scales above. How this feat explicitly contradicts the Hero and Arcann’s scaling above Nyriss is beyond me.

No, I haven’t considered that Valkorion unleashed his powers instantly because that's how most Force attacks in combat are delivered in general so I didn't think it worthy of consideration, and still don't. What matters is its potency, and was pretty impotent all around.

As I noted, the kinetic energy required to toss the shutte is far as Cade did is immensely greater than knocking down the metal plates that were the collateral in Valkorion’s attack that the Outlander, per you, is “vastly” less powerful than. Ch. 5 Outlander factually caps out substantially beneath druggie Cade, which you didn’t address in your post, so am I to take that as “a silent concession”? To further apply your own logic to this case, as I’ve already detailed the gap between druggie Cade and Vong Krayt, “If you can’t prove that [Arcann’s] feats and scaling are even comparable to the likes of [druggie Cade] or [Darth Stryfe], what are the odds that [Arcann] is going to stand a chance against [Krayt], who I have proven is absurdly beyond both?”

Moreover, contrary to Valkorion’s, the team wasn't remotely outmatched. Even if the Outlander refuses his help, Koth, HK-55, and Senya kill them all in seconds. Prior to that, Lana was 2v1'ing them, managing to kill one and holding off the other for 20 seconds before being disarmed. So yeah, the Knights are complete shit, and Valkorion just used the opportunity to tempt the Outlander with his power - which, as I already showed, couldn't disintegrate even the Knights at its epicenter. There is a massive disconnect between your scaling and the limitations imposed by the actual feats: the Jedi Masters in KOTOR II can rebuild the Jedi Enclave in minutes (link ), demonstrating far superior telekinetic potency to that of Lana Beniko, who struggled to open a reinforced door; yet they are ragdolled and one-shot by Kreia (link ); who in turn is defeated by the Jedi Exile on "a colossal geyser of dark side energy" (url=https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/gallery/Star-Wars/Old-Republic-Era/trayus-core-nexus-pic_785.htm]link[/url]); yet she herself is practically B-teamed by Darth Nyriss in a duel, whose charged lightning could have outright turned the Exile, and even Nyriss herself, to ash; but Revan "easily" deflects that lightning as an expression of his "raw power."

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wemnSFZtslU&t=302s

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:As explained above, there is no reason to believe HoT’s inferiority to Valklander’s feat contradicts the line of scaling. The idea that Revan simply overestimated the usefulness of his allies despite him knowing they were defeated by Nyriss and arguably overestimating the powers of the Emperor (as outlined in my opener, Revan did not think he was capable of going toe to toe with the Emperor, and that he didn’t stand a chance of defeating the Emperor alone) is a bit ludicrous. Furthermore, Vitiate’s ability to make Scourge bend the knee via revealing his true self earlier in the Novel is not relevant by the end of the Novel when Revan had explicitly taught Scourge and Meetra a method to resist the Emperor’s domination (Sorry about it being sideways):

Revan fully believed his team would lend sufficient aid even after they were stomped by Nyriss and he himself was cooked by Vitiate’s lightning, so I don’t really care if you consider it ludicrous yourself. That he taught them a technique to guard against telepathic intrusion does not guarantee it would have worked, as he shared "everything" he knew regarding the Emperor with the Jedi Council, yet they were still mentally dominated them mid-fight (note how they’re passively just standing there even before the final lightning blast is launched).

Star Wars: The Old Republic - Revan wrote:As they drew closer to the throne room, Revan’s thoughts drifted back to his last confrontation with the Emperor. In all his battles, he had never faced an enemy with that kind of power. The dark side had radiated from him in palpable waves, his physical shell barely able to contain the crackling energy.

In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn’t even fair to call it a battle. Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful now, but was he a match for the Emperor?

Alone, probably not. With the combined strength of Meetra, Scourge, and even T3, however, he believed they stood a real chance of victory.

Star Wars: The Old Republic - Revan wrote:Meetra had placed herself between the Emperor and Revan, valiantly protecting her wounded friend. As Scourge reached them, Revan managed to stand up again. He reached out with an open palm and his lightsaber sprang from the floor and into his waiting grasp.

The three of them stood side by side, two Jedi and a Sith Lord against the Emperor.

“I expected better from you, Lord Scourge,” the Emperor said.

Scourge wondered if he was stalling for time so his Guard could break through the sealed door. There wasn’t much chance of that, however; by the time they broke into the throne room the battle would already be decided, one way or the other.

“He has seen the depths of your evil,” Revan declared. “He stands with us now.”

“Then he will die with you, as well.”

“You can’t defeat all three of us,” Revan said. “United, we are stronger than even you.”

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gst32QJz5Q4&t=25m30s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bq5X3F3g69c&t=9m44s

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 BjpXJs7

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:When Scourge tells the Hero to not allow the Emperor time to “gather his strength”, he is claiming this in the context of the Emperor recovering quickly, (the definition of recover being brought up in my opener). After the mission, Scourge tells the Hero:

Which means “the Emperor gathered his strength”, or in other words, the warning of the Emperor recovering came to pass, and you defeated him anyway. You also neglected to take into account the Hero’s hindrances “dissipating [his] energies” fighting through hordes of Sith and the Imperial Guard in the immensely potent dark side nexus of the Dark Temple, along with the fact the Hero is confident he could defeat the Emperor regardless of whether or not he has fully recovered, despite being faced with his true power in Act 2.

Yes, if Vitiate is able to recover quickly, then giving him to time to gather his strength is a gamble, but this again does not prove how much of his strength he was able to gather. And I ignored the compounding factors because they weren’t relevant to the argument.

So yeah, the most likely explanation is simply that Revan overestimated their usefulness, and that the Emperor in Act III is not more powerful than his novel counterpart. Not that I really have to provide a detailed explanation in the first place, since the feats speak for themselves: the Outlander caps beneath an attack that knocked down a few metal plates and couldn’t disintegrate Knights of Zakuul, and in their duel, Arcann had to exploit openings in his defense instead of being able to ragdoll him at will; whereas the Jedi Masters in KOTOR II are provably more powerful than the Knights by way of comparing their telekinesis to Lana Beniko’s, yet their defenses were simply torn through by Kreia, and they were collectively one-shot by her, and Nyriss’s lightning could disintegrate Force-users even more powerful than that. So Arcann is bound beneath Darth Traya, and there are several one-shot gaps between her and TPM Sidious, whom Vong Krayt is superior to in power. The comparison to Cade’s shuttle feat and the subsequent scaling to Krayt also stands.

-- -- --

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:You completely missed my point here. I was never denying that there were stray bolts that spewed “all over the place” and not hitting Arcann. My contention was that the stream of lightning hitting Arcann is not a mere fraction of the overall potency that Valkorion was unleashing. Your argument is contingent on the notion that the stray bolts are as powerful or even far more powerful than the energy hitting Arcann, but you have not shown any evidence to support this notion. Conversely, I mentioned that given the scaling we already know exists between Nyriss and Arcann, we know that the stray energy that was incapable of disintegrating pilots must have been infinitely weaker than the lightning stream at Arcann.

I got your point just fine. It’s you who missed mine though, which is that the very fact that there are stray bolts in the first place is in itself indicative of Valkorion failing to harness that power into a concentrated stream: his hands are pointed towards Arcann but the initial bolts end up flying everywhere except toward Arcann. So why should Valkorion be capable of condensing and directing a supposedly far more potent stream than the energies which he failed to control? That was my counter to your argument; I never claimed you denied that there were stray bolts.

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:What?

If Novel Revan is capable of easily deflecting Nyriss’ lightning storm, then Arcann could do it with his hands tied behind his back. Your explanation of the differences between Valklander’s lightning attack and Nyriss’ does nothing to counter this notion. The point I mentioned above is crucial here: given that Arcann scales absurdly above Novel Revan, the raw energy required to overcome him would be absurdly greater, (i.e. we know the lightning stream Valklander overpowered Arcann with was vastly more powerful than Nyriss’ storm because of Arcann’s vast superiority to Novel Revan). The duration of the two attacks is irrelevant, because it’s a matter of the total energy being unleashed. The total energy in the directed lightning stream is powerful enough to overcome Arcann, while the total energy of Nyriss’ lightning storm is casually reflected by Novel Revan. This is also why you can’t really argue the stray bolts Valklander unleashes against Arcann are even close in power to the directed stream: we already know Valklander is vastly more powerful than Nyriss, ergo the stray bolts being far weaker than Nyriss’ casual lightning (much less her storm) is proof that most of the energy from the stream is directed at Arcann. This may seem like a circular explanation, but it’s a matter of differentiating between the environmental impressiveness of the feat via the already existing line of scaling between Arcann and Nyriss while also recognizing the feat itself shows that Arcann shares parity with an absurdly greater level of power than the Outlander or earlier demonstrations from Valklander. These two notions are not mutually contingent.

The duration is what matters the most, since it’s a factor that contributes to the total energy: 1 W * 50 s = 50 J; 20 W * 1 s = 20 J; 50 J > 20 J. Per that example, it’s possible for Valkorion’s lightning to be much less potent than Nyriss’s, but over a longer period of time to deliver more energy than hers in an instant. And back to my original point: Arcann was bombarded continuously with no opportunity to send it back (see the analogy with Yoda vs. Sidious), whereas Revan was hit by a single burst that he could absorb and redirect at his leisure. Even if your scaling stood (it doesn’t), it’s not a contradiction for Valkorion’s lightning to be much weaker than Nyriss’s. Therefore the comparison between Arcann’s failure and Anakin’s success with the theta storm stands, and so Krayt is immeasurably beyond Arcann by this scaling as well.

--- --- --- --- ---

DARTH KRAYT’S MELIORITY

"Not for the first time, he wondered how much of recent events the Master had foreseen, how far into the future the Master's foresight extended. It was as though the Master had a recorder on the eye of fate, and through it saw and anticipated events like no one else. Despite himself, [Arcann] felt awed by the Master's power."

I. MUSTAFAR KENOBI’S POWER


@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:So, what do all these quotes mean? For one, if we consider my quote from post 2 that indicates Kenobi did not have to expend any effort on predicting and anticipating Anakin’s attacks, this means that Kenobi could focus all his “concentration and energy” on “guarding against the force powers of [Anakin]” and “augmenting [his] physical prowess.” Furthermore, given Kenobi’s “focus on short, economical movements that provide complete coverage from incoming strikes” and “minimalist defense” that “preserves [his] reserves while simultaneously tiring an opponent”, Kenobi can be vastly slower than Anakin and still keep up with him “blow for blow” (albeit barely) despite the “enormous” difference between the two, because Anakin has to perform much more movement and expend much more energy attacking than Kenobi does defending. Quite frankly, it’s ridiculous for you to claim “enormous” means nigh-equal in this context when we have other explanations for why Kenobi is able to go blow for blow with Anakin.

The argument is indicated above: Kenobi is expending much less energy than Anakin is while dueling, which gives Kenobi much more ability to concentrate on generating a counterattack with his force powers as Anakin attempts to hammer away at his defenses. The exchange between the two isn’t explicit proof that Kenobi shares parity with Anakin, especially when the highest canon authorities claim this is not the case.

Vader also knows Kenobi’s style inside and out - he has no need to think on his moves either, and can likewise focus all his "concentration and energy" on "guarding against the Force powers of the [Obi-Wan]" and "augmenting [his] physical prowess," meaning each strike would have been delivered with maximum output. Dooku had to spend "lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half", and the visuals of the movie do show Kenobi making direct blocks. Ergo, he would still have had to match Darth Vader strength-to-strength regardless of how much more energy he was conserving.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Muzzd-pA0g8

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith novelization wrote:The shining blue lightsaber whirled and spat and every overhand chop crashed against Dooku's defense with the unstoppable power of a meteor strike; the Sith Lord spent lavishly of his reserve of the Force merely to meet these attacks without being cut in half, and Skywalker-

Skywalker was getting stronger.

Each parry cost Dooku more power than he'd used to throw Kenobi across the room; each block aged him a decade.

And while Vader would have been expending more of his reserves in the aggregate than Kenobi, he also has more reserves to draw from to begin with because he is more powerful (which I never denied, nor did I claim they are peers). We don’t see any sort of drop in performance or indication that he was tired except toward the very end of the duel, and he would have been perfectly capable of mustering a fully powered telekinetic shield in the beginning of the duel. Obi-Wan penetrating it is a legitimate feat.

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Where is it indicated by George or Yoda that Kenobi not being able to compete with the Emperor is specifically due to the Emperor’s prowess with force lightning? Until proven otherwise, both quotes are referring to Kenobi and the Emperor in an overall sense, i.e. Kenobi is not in the same league as the Emperor in any way.

Lucas states only Yoda and Mace can compete with the Emperor. The reasons why they can and others can’t is not answered, however. Therefore, we have to examine the attributes of the characters, and the Emperor’s lightning is a trump card Anakin doesn’t possess - he seems to be exceptionally proficient with it even relative to his own level, given how immensely Yoda struggled with it. It’s therefore possible for Kenobi to be able to contend with Anakin but not Sidious, even if the latter two share an equal overall power level.

II. TATOOINE KENOBI’S POWER


@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:...Except the quotes I provided for you explain that Yoda was slowed down and broken by the destruction of the Jedi Order as well. It’s possible that the revelation Yoda received dueling Sidious exacerbated his broken spirit, but it’s undeniable that both Kenobi and Yoda were broken and continued to be broken further after the events of Revenge of the Sith for largely the same reason, and this explicitly causes Yoda to be slowed down and ultimately become vastly weaker. It isn’t absurd for me to seek proof Kenobi did not decline at all 2 years after ROTS given these concerns, especially given your rationale that Kenobi had been keeping up with his exercises also applies to Yoda, who still diminished vastly.

No, your statement says Yoda was slowed down by "a spirit broken after the destruction of the Jedi Order," not by it. There is no cause-and-effect relationship. I’ve already provided quotes that prove he remained level-headed in the face of the Order’s destruction, and that it was the revelation while fighting Sidious that truly broke him. Obi-Wan was never subjected to that same revelation, so it is a false analogy.

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:The quote from the Heir to the Empire Sourcebook is not applicable to Kenobi during the events of Order 66 and “mere hours afterwards.” The quote is specifically referring to the Jedi who died during Obi-Wan’s time in hiding after the events of ROTS, with each death breaking his heart more each time. Obi-Wan being “scrubbed clean” and emptying himself on the Tantive IV does not contradict this notion: this moment can be akin to a meditation session in which one’s mind becomes clear and euphoric, but does not lead to complete and permanent invulnerability to trauma. And even if we are talking about during the events of Order 66 during ROTS, it is entirely possible that the abrupt and frantic nature of the situation coupled with Kenobi drawing on the force more deeply than he ever had before, reaching his absolute physical and mental limits, allowed him to stave off decline due to immediate effects of Order 66. Ditto for him being able to run faster than any Jedi or Sith in history hours after the fact. None of this contradicts the notion that 2 years of isolation and continuous and deeper heartbreak could diminish his connection to the force, and there is no evidence to suggest that Kenobi was operating at his absolute physical and mental limits or drawing on the force more deeply than ever against Hett.

None of this precludes his connection to the force being diminished since ROTS.

And why can’t Obi-Wan have had similar “meditation sessions in which one’s mind becomes clear and euphoric”? Why would he be unable to apply the same lesson Yoda taught him that enabled him to instantaneously overcome the trauma of the Order’s destruction and the deaths of thousands of Jedi to overcome the deaths of one or two Jedi at a time? Specifically against A’Sharad Hett, as I said in my previous post, “He further emptied himself of any thoughts whatsoever, knowing that "any such thoughts would probably get him killed." In essence, Obi-Wan was in his usual element, empty and serene, like against Grievous and Vader. ” Or him fighting for the life of Luke that allowed him to achieve his famed speed feat in the first place.

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Even if this incarnation of Kenobi ~ ROTS Kenobi (which you haven’t proven), he is obviously not bringing his A-game to the extent he was against Anakin on Mustafar, where he was pushed to his physical and mental limits while drawing on the force more deeply than ever before. Furthermore, given the quotes in my second post, Kenobi is put in a constant state of desperation with the certainty that he will die fighting Anakin, which is simply not the case with Hett.

Your own quote states Obi-Wan was filled with "a calm certainty" that "Anakin was going to kill him," not desperation. He was just as calm and serene as usual. However, it’s naught compared to the mental state in which he was when performing the running feat, which was identical to his mental state when fighting Hett: trying to save Luke was a bigger motivator and performance enhancer than the risk of dying. Ergo, he would have brought his A-game against Hett even more than against Vader.

Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith junior novelization wrote:As Anakin’s lightsaber hummed toward him, a calm certainty filled Obi-Wan. Anakin was going to kill him. Oh, he’d make Anakin work for it. He’d fight with everything he had. But he was positive, with the sureness that came from any Force-driven insight, that he would die at Anakin’s hands.

vs.

Star Wars: Lone Wolf - A Tale of Obi-Wan and Luke wrote:No one, not Jedi, not Sith, had ever duplicated such superhuman locomotion.

Was Obi-Wan flying? He didn't know.

But he knew that, this time, he was not running from the blaster fire of destroyer droids. He was not running to save his own life.

He was not even running to save Qui-Gon from the slaying fire of Darth Maul's singing blade.

He was running ... to save the child he loved.

and

Star Wars: The Life and Legend of Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:But in the end, Ben knew he wasn't fighting for his own life. He was fighting for Luke's.

III. DARTH KRAYT’S POWER


@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Regardless of whether or not Hett gave Kenobi a good fight (though delivering glancing physical blows to Kenobi doesn’t prove his parity anymore than Maul delivering a kick to Sidious’ midsection in The Lawless proves his parity), it does not tie Hett to Anakin given the much greater and more intense fight Anakin was able to give Kenobi. This isn’t even factoring in the significant terrain advantage Hett possessed.

Yes, Maul landing that kick (along with going back and forth) does prove his relativity against a holding-back Sidious, much like Hett landing multiple hits through Kenobi’s acclaimed Soresu defense denotes relativity between the two, but that wasn’t even my main point: it was the comparison between Hett and Kenobi’s respective kicks affected each other.

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:What’s “just plain willful ignorance” is ignoring both Kenobi’s own thoughts and the opinion of the narrator regarding the desert terrain and heat being relevant factors in the fight. The Jinn and Maul comparison is irrelevant and a false equivalence, as neither is noted as being significantly more experienced fighting in the desert terrain and heat than the other, thus nullifying any potential advantage. Regardless of our personal thoughts on the matter, the text explicitly notes from the POV of Kenobi and the narrator that Hett’s “far [greater] experience” in the terrain and heat is a relevant advantage, and based on how the quote is worded, this is specifically the primary reason that Kenobi is unable to deflect Hett’s blows easily:

Which casts into doubt the idea that Kenobi couldn’t easily handle Hett on neutral ground. You cannot scale Hett with advantages briefly pressuring Kenobi to Kenobi desperately defending himself with deeper reserves than ever before against Anakin’s onslaught, certain that he will die and being exhausted to his physical and mental limits in the process.

I never denied or ignored that the desert terrain and heat were relevant factors. What I did deny is that it completely and utterly nullifies all comparisons between Hett and Kenobi as none of the far more relevant factors in the fight like precognition, reflexes, technical skill, or clarity of mind were affected. Even if on neutral he were able to easily block Hett’s blows, it wouldn’t mean he was far off from Hett in power or as an overall combatant. He’s a Soresu master; blocking attacks is inherently easily for him. Actually defeating his opponent is another matter entirely.

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Let’s see what the Vong Coral Seeds do to Krayt:

The strength of Krayt’s body directly correlates with how much he is being consumed by the Vong Coral Seeds, which in turn directly correlates with how much he is exerting himself fighting the Imperial Knights and Cade. You haven’t really done anything this entire debate to quantify the Imperial Knights or Cade in relation to the titans Arcann scales above, and as a result I’m not sure why I’m even supposed to believe that Vong Krayt as of 130 BBY even scales above Hett. Again, sure, Krayt is far greater in terms of available power, but I’ve yet to see you prove that Krayt can muster that level of strength without destroying his body through exertion in the process.

PS: When I say “exertion”, I mean exertion insofar as drawing on the force in a fight will worsen the effects of the Vong Coral Seeds, thus diminishing his strength further.

Well that’s what you have to prove. Vong Krayt is uniquely disconnected from Hett in that despite him being far more powerful, he is physically ailed by the Vong Coral Seeds to the extent that brief exertions of power against the Imperial Knights and Cade diminish his strength significantly. Why should I believe Krayt is capable of defeating Hett given these circumstances?

It’s all there in the fight. Krayt’s performance against Cade doesn’t worsen towards the end of the duel; he has a consistent performance rate that he maintains throughout the fight. Given just how enormous the gap between himself and Arcann is, he is fully capable of slaughtering him in moments without his condition affecting him any more than it did against the Imperial Knights or Cade.

@XSUPREMEXSKILLZ wrote:Based on the fact that Revan Reborn has vastly superior feats and lines of scaling than anything you have provided for Cade.

Answering one baseless claim with another baseless claim doesn’t help your case. Why are Revan’s feats and scaling superior to Cade’s?

--- --- --- --- ---

The conclusion will be posted in the finisher.

_________________
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The lord of hunger
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on June 10th 2020, 10:40 am
az stomping skillz imao
HellfireUnit
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on June 10th 2020, 10:43 am
@The lord of hunger wrote:az stomping skillz imao

Star me for being a prophet
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on June 10th 2020, 10:45 am
@HellfireUnit wrote:
@The lord of hunger wrote:az stomping skillz imao

Star me for being a prophet
prophet for what lol?
Sjuttiosju
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on June 10th 2020, 10:47 am
"DAMN, AZRONGER REALLY OWNING RN GUYZZZZZZZZZ!"
NotAA3
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Level Four
Level Four

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger)

on June 10th 2020, 10:48 am
Can we ban retarded cheerleaders, pls?
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger)

on June 10th 2020, 10:50 am
SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 39523600    SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 1076326320
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator | Champion of the Light
Moderator | Champion of the Light

SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger)

on June 10th 2020, 11:05 am
@NotAA3 wrote:Can we ban retarded cheerleaders, pls?

No, but we can ban people who insult others.

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SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - The Tyrannical Ten - Arcann (xSupremeSkillz) vs Darth Krayt (Azronger)

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