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A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  Empty A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians

on Fri Mar 13, 2020 10:52 pm
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A CASE FOR THE NEO-ANTEDILUVIANS

Why Freedon Nadd is more powerful than Darth Tenebrous

Special credit to @KingofBlades, for resurrecting and advancing this argument when everyone else had turned the other way.

This argument goes against a decade of popular opinion, so it is only appropriate that I offer you an exorbitant amount of explanation and justification. However, do not mistake thoroughness for reaching. I believe the blog can still be adequately captured and understood with just a few sentences, as shown in section V. 

Source: Darth Plagueis, Star Wars Darth Plagueis wrote:
While midi-chlorians appeared to resist manipulation of a sort that might imperil the balance of the Force, they remained passive, even compliant, in the case of a weak-willed being manipulated by one who was strong in the Force. Perhaps that explained why it was often easier to call on the Force to heal someone other than oneself. Extending life, then, could hinge on something as simple as being able to induce midi-chlorians to create new cells; to subdivide at will, increasing their numbers into the tens of thousands to heal or replace damaged, aging, or metastatic cells. Midi-chlorians had to be compelled to serve the needs of the body; to bestow strength when needed; to overcome physical insult, or prevent cells from reaching senescence.

If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this. But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras? Some commentators claimed that the ability to survive death had been limited to those with a talent for sorcery and alchemy, and that the use of such practices actually predated the arrival of the Dark Jedi exiles on Korriban. But sorcery had been employed less to extend life than to create illusions, fashion beasts, and resurrect the dead. Powerful adepts were said to have been able to saturate the atmosphere of planets with dark side energy, compel stars to explode, or induce paralysis in crowds, as Exar Kun apparently did to select members of the Republic Senate. Other adepts used sorcery merely as a means to better understand ancient Sith spells and sigils.

I. DARTH PLAGUEIS' CONCESSION OF INFERIORITY

In paragraph one, Plagueis observes that the midi-chlorians of weak-minded individuals are easily suggestible, then extrapolates that midi-chlorians could be influenced to self-replicate. Plagueis concludes that his goal of "extending life" could perhaps be achieved through this midi-chlorian manipulation, which turns out true. 

Plagueis opens in paragraph two by stating that, according to the Banite archives, "the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this." "This" is in reference to "extending life." Plagueis is not also suggesting that the ancient Sith extended life though midi-chlorian manipulation—just that they extended life. Plagueis highlights how the ancient Sith extended life earlier in the novel: "The Sith Lords of old were said to have been able to draw on the energies released during death to extend their own lives, as well as the lives of others. Unfortunately, much like the technique of essence transfer, that ancient knowledge had been lost." Note that "during death" is in reference to the death of others—not oneself—meaning the sentences concern draining the death energies of others to extend corporeal life and not a spirit anchoring to a nexus generated by their own death energies (if you were thinking that). This is readily apparent given Plagueis' earlier identification that both midi-chlorian manipulation and this ancient Sith ability in question "accomplished" the task of extending corporeal life, and Plagueis explicitly distinguished this death energy ability from the spirit anchoring and relocating haxx that is essence transfer in the green subsequent sentence. Plagueis even reaffirms this significant connection between the ancient Sith, Force drain, and extending corporeal life later as well: "The great dark side Lords of the past had doomed themselves to the nether realm through their attempts to conquer death by feeding off the energies of others." Put simply, according to Sith sources, the ancient Sith drained the death energies of others to extend corporeal life.

Next, Plagueis questions in bold whether the ancient Sith could extend life because they were inherently more powerful than him or were galactically empowered to be more powerful than him. Either of these questions necessitates that the ancient Sith in their day wielded greater power than he did here. Plagueis does not have to frame or limit his questions around this underlying conclusion. The fact he does so shows he takes it as a given. To argue Plagueis' closed-ended question does not preclude other unstated options—especially options that oppose the framework and 'underlying conclusion' of the existing options—is analogous to arguing "Did [the Star Forge] provide [Darth Malak] with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?" does not also preclude other unstated options—such as "or it did not provide Malak with powers far greater than Kun nor Nadd anyway." The usage of "or" generates a yes-no question that semantically constrains both the Malak and Plagueis quote to the two options. Plagueis notes in purple that "some commentators" (hint: not himself) argue a third option: that the ancient Sith could extend life uniquely due to their talent with Sith sorcery and alchemy. However, Plagueis explicitly rejects this argument in red. He states "but" Sith sorcery and alchemy were "employed less to extend life than to" other applications. In other words, Sith sorcery and alchemy were not generally used by the ancient Sith to extend life, so the claim by "some commenters" that a disposition towards those arts is needed to extend life is false. Plagueis leaning over backward to shoot down another option that could disrupt the binarity of his question reaffirms his conviction that the only answers mean the ancient Sith were ultimately stronger. 

However, Plagueis' "the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras" second option is an irrelevant distinction for us debaters. In most Star Wars eras, the galactic Force is unbalanced and subsumed in the dark side; the galaxy is a mega dark side nexus. For example: "In the Legacy era, there is no balance to the Force. Instead, the dark side of the Force holds sway, and the influence of evil can be felt everywhere" (Star Wars Legacy Campaign Guide). There is no way for us to separate the One Sith's showings from the all-present dark side, so we bake it into the cake of our analysis. We even attribute these shifts in the galactic Force—such as when Plagueis and Palpatine tilted it to the dark side, or when Order 66 further empowered Anakin and Palpatine—as permanent increases in the Force user's raw power. Ergo, regardless of whether the ancient Sith were more powerful than Plagueis due to inherent or galactic factors, they are clear-cut more powerful as it relates to versus debating.

II. CREDIBILITY OF DARTH PLAGUEIS' ASSESSMENT 

There are two core variants of Force drain: drain life and drain Force. Drain life feeds on an individual's life energy and is detailed by Darth Bane in the Rule of Two, which Plagueis has possession of. Drain Force, however, is "a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes." (Kreia, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2). A fledgling Palpatine repeatedly practices the ability under the instruction of Plagueis himself: "The moment the vibroblade stuck, the creature's eyes rolled back and grew opaque; hot blood spurted but quickly ceased to flow-the Force departing, and Sidious drawing its power deep into himself. 'Now another one,' Plagueis said in a congratulatory tone. 'And another one after that.'" Given this ability "cannot be taught" and "can only be gained through experiencing its effects, first-hand," Plagueis must have first used it against Palpatine, and Tenebrous against Plagueis before that. Note Plagueis' description of this death energy ability perfectly matches with the drain Force variant, as shown in the blue text throughout, which complements Kreia's comments that the ancient Sith favored and used drain Force extensively. However, regardless of which variant you think this death energy ability applies to, Plagueis would be knowledgeable in both. 

Plagueis states the "ancient knowledge" of draining the death energies of others to extend corporeal life "had been lost." However, we know that Plagueis is already knowledgeable on both variants of Force drain. Fortunately, this is not a discrepancy and can be readily explained in a similar way to how Palpatine already knows the basics of essence transfer as of Order 66 but still needs to further deepen and expand his technique through Ashka Boda and the ancient Sith spirits. Simply put, Plagueis demonstrably does not lack the ability to drain the death energies of others, but he self-professedly does lack the ability to do so to the extent that it extends his corporeal life. Although Plagueis has an easy excuse for why he cannot replicate what the ancient Sith do—the knowledge is lost—he still maintains the fact they can do it as proof of their superiority. Plagueis makes this assessment with his high-end mastery of the dark side, considerable knowledge of Force drain, and already many decades of "experimentation and directed meditation" toward extending life. And he makes this assessment with absolute certainty; he recognizes no other explanation than the ancient Sith being superior. This is, hands down, one of the most informed and unwavering in-universe declarations in Star Wars.

Some debaters argue Plagueis' ancient Sith assessment is based on flawed and limited knowledge of Naga Sadow's stasis hibernation and Exar Kun's Massassi ritual, and that Plagueis is unaware those feats featured other context besides Force drain. However, no known source insinuates Sadow prolonged his life through Force drain in any respect, and even the in-universe New Essential Chronology—which is prefaced disclaiming that "Palpatine's Empire purged thousands of years records from the galactic archives"—still specifies that Sadow did not use Force drain: "Sadow used Sith technology and sorcery to cocoon himself in a suspended animation chamber." Note that Plagueis remarking the ancient Sith were able to "compel stars to explode" with Sith sorcery does not imply he is unaware that Sadow and Keto relied on Force-enhancing crystals and is thus uninformed either (if you were thinking that). And Kun's Massassi ritual did not extend his corporeal life—categorically the opposite, actually. Ergo, Plagueis is evidently not referring to the stasis or ritual. They are the antithesis of what he is talking about. Instead, it appears Plagueis is referencing feats us debaters were not privy to prior, now revealed through multiple "accounts and holocrons" all independently stating Sadow and Kun drained the death energies of others to extend corporeal life, just as Kreia revealed new information about the ancient Sith and their emphasis on Force drain from the Telos archives. 

Plagueis prefaces in orange that the only point of potential ambiguity here is whether the "accounts and holocrons" are true—not also that, if they are true, then do they sufficiently clarify the context behind Sadow and Kun's feats. Indeed, if they are true, then I have already shown that Plagueis poses a question with only two possible options—either of which makes Sadow and Kun more powerful than him—and not also a third option that his given information is lacking context. And, as to whether the "accounts and holocrons" ultimately are true, again, Plagueis says there are multiple independent sources and mediums all backing that Sadow and Kun did this, with evidently no relevant contradicting information. And Plagueis even later appears to purge any doubts of this death energy ability's usage: "In the same way that the pre-Bane Sith had been responsible for their own extinction, the great dark side Lords of the past had doomed themselves to the nether realm through their attempts to conquer death by feeding off the energies of others." Plagueis declares with the same conviction that the Brotherhood of Darkness destroyed themselves—the foundational Banite belief—that the ancient Sith doomed themselves with this death energy ability and trying to achieve absolute immortality from external sources. 

III. LIMITATIONS OF THE "EQUAL POWER" QUOTE

Darth Plagueis, Star Wars Darth Plagueis wrote:
Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.[hideedit]

The opening quote was stated by Plagueis in 67 BBY, which I elaborate on further in section IV. This "equal power" quote was stated by Plagueis in 32 BBY. You're probably thinking, "If we're rolling with the earlier quote, why aren't we also rolling with this quote? Doesn't all this just end with Vitiate being weaker than Plagueis?"

Plagueis does not need to know all the powers and power-levels of the ancient Sith to make his death energy ability assessment. Instead, Plagueis just needs to know (A) that the ancient Sith used this death energy ability to extend life, (B) the circumstances around these feats, and (C) the necessary power-level to perform these feats. Indeed, section II-paragraph 4 shows both that (A) is a fact established by multiple independent sources and mediums and embraced by Plagueis as a part of his doctrine, and that (B) is known to Plagueis given neither of his binary options concern not having the full story. As for (C), section II-paragraphs 1 and 2 explain Plagueis assesses this death energy ability with "with his high-end mastery of the dark side, considerable knowledge of Force drain, and already many decades of 'experimentation and directed meditation' toward extending life." Consequently, Plagueis is able to project its difficulty level and compare that with his own powers with—as proven in section I-paragraph 3—absolute certainty. This quote is, as I said earlier, "one of the most informed and unwavering in-universe declarations in Star Wars."

The "equal power" quote functions differently. Plagueis is not resolutely declaring himself the most powerful Sith ever. Rather, Plagueis believes that he is the most powerful Sith ever given his existing knowledge of the powers and power-levels of the ancient Sith, but that his belief is subject to change depending on new knowledge of the ancient Sith. Put another way, Plagueis believes he is more powerful than Vitiate given his existing knowledge of Vitiate, but that new knowledge of Vitiate may change his mind. This dynamic is unlike the opening quote, in which Plagueis believes he needs to pass just a threshold of information to make his conclusion explicitly preclude the possibility of change. That difference makes sense, too. You need less information to confidently conclude Magnus Carlsen is a better chess player than you than the reverse. By all indicators, Plagueis should have a strong knowledge of Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun. He lists off many of their best feats, and information about the Great Hyperspace War and Great Sith War is rich even through the greatly limited New Republic archives. However, I would be remiss to not note that apparently many of Kun's powers were indeed "taken to his grave" and thus presumably unknown to Plagueis—"The dark knowledge of the Sith teachings died with Kun, it is extremely unlikely that any records survive, either on Yavin IV or elsewhere" (Star Wars Jedi Academy Sourcebook)—but I'll leave that argument to other debaters. 

Though, what does Plagueis know about Vitiate? For starters, the prequel era Jedi do not even know what happened to Revan after the Jedi Civil War. Both Jedi historian Bodo Baas and Dooku state, "As for the end of [the Jedi Civil War], many records are either unclear or inconsistent. Revan's fate is not documented" (Star Wars Essential Guide to the Force) and "I have read that Revan returned to the light before his sudden disappearance from galactic affairs" (Star Wars The Jedi Path) respectively. Bodo Baas further states, "After the Second Sith War, the Jedi hunted down and exterminated the disciples of Darth Revan and Malak, and many other followers of the dark side. The Sith virtually disappeared for centuries, and it was believed the galaxy as least safe from their dark order. This erroneous belief lasted until the emergence of Darth Ruin," meaning the prequel era Jedi are unaware of the Great Galactic War almost altogether. Note that the Essential Guide to the Force covers up to the Third Jedi Purge but never makes mention of the Great Galactic War, indicating most of its histories never resurface again either. Great Galactic War information was apparently lost even before the Battle of Ruusan, as Darth Bane and Qordis believe no Sith ruled Korriban between the time of Revan and Kaan. While later Banites obviously learn of at least Vitiate's existence and thousand-year reign, the fact the public and Jedi unearthed next to nothing indicates whatever the Sith have is scarce. Indeed, Palpatine describes Vitiate as merely "the era's Sith Emperor" (Star Wars Book of Sith). Moreover, much of Vitiate's Sith knowledge was forever lost even by 3631 BBY, let alone by the time of Plagueis. The Battle of Ilum saw the destruction of the Emperor's Fortress—which contained "dozens of rooms storing artifacts that the Emperor gathered over the centuries" (The Emperor's Space Station codex, Star Wars The Old Republic)—and Vaylin destroyed his prized Nathema Vault—where Vitiate kept his most dangerous secrets. Taken altogether, all evidence reveals Plagueis knows next to nothing about Vitiate, let alone about his powers. Consequently, especially given Plagueis' own recognition of potential fallibility here, the "equal power" quote unequivocally cannot be taken as an informed opinion as to whether Plagueis is more powerful than Vitiate.

IV. SPECIFIC APPLICABILITY TO THE ANCIENTS AND BANITES

Plagueis concedes inferiority to Sadow and Kun in 67 BBY, shortly after Tenebrous' death. While Tenebrous looked down on Plagueis, he realized upon his death that Plagueis' powers were "considerably deeper, broader, and more powerful than he had ever suspected." For example, Plagueis' "powers of foresight were vastly more developed than Tenebrous had believed." After all, Plagueis was "apprenticed to Tenebrous for as many years as the average human might live" and had greater Force potential. Most Banites would have long surpassed their Masters after over eighty years of tutelage. 67 BBY Plagueis should be at least approaching Tenebrous in raw power, especially given he experienced a further "amplification of his powers" when Tenebrous died. Indeed, 67 BBY Plagueis senses a Force presence that was "something or some being of near-equal power" and quickly wonders, "Was Tenebrous's spirit the source of the power he sensed?" Note that, according to Palpatine, Sith spirits "retain one's powers beyond death" though lack the ability to affect the physical realm (Star Wars Essential Guide to the Force), so Plagueis should not be identifying a power source significantly weaker than Tenebrous as Tenebrous' spirit. Ergo, the fact Plagueis registers Tenebrous' spirit as an entity with perhaps "near-equal power" further reinforces they were close in raw power. Also, note while Venamis is shocked that Plagueis slew Tenebrous, consider that can be also be attributed to the fact he had no idea Tenebrous died, that his low opinion is reflective of his Master's own low opinion which turned out to be false, and that this was before he even fought Plagueis. Venamis went into the fight thinking he could beat Plagueis but left offering Plagueis a mere "training exercise" and prostrating before him. 

Some debaters argue Tenebrous is far more powerful than 67 BBY Plagueis because he could manipulate midi-chlorians whereas Plagueis could not until after the balance of the Force shifted. However, that is leaving out all the context provided in The Tenebrous Way. First, Tenebrous encoded an RNA virus with his own consciousness. Note an RNA virus is not a midi-chlorian, so this action would not provoke Force resistance. Tenebrous did this specifically "by applying the full analytic prowess of his vast Bith brain and the preternatural power of his Bith senses to detect and resolve sub-microscopic structure." Then, this RNA virus attached to a midi-chlorian, which "inserts a copy of its genome" (i.e. Tenebrous' consciousness) "into the DNA" of the midi-chlorian, "thus changing the genome" of the midi-chlorian into the "maxi-chlorian" (learn more) . At no stage is Tenebrous stated or instinuated to be clashing against the will of the Force. Also, note mention of "Due to their role in Force interactions, altering [the midi-chlorians] was singularly challenging" is in reference to affecting the midi-chlorians by way of the retrovirus (i.e. indirectly rather than directly), hence why the sentence concludes with "but he eventually succeeded in creating a retrovirus that would transform normal midi-chlorians." There is no question that this feat is incredible, but it is incredible because of Tenebrous' Bith math and perceptions. It does not shed light on Tenebrous' Force power and willpower relative to Plagueis'. 

While Plagueis does not provide a comprehensive list of ancient Sith who drained the death energies of others to extended corporeal life, we know at least Sadow and Kun did, given he concedes they are more powerful. However, Sadow was far less powerful than Freedon Nadd. Nadd apprenticed himself to Sadow and "absorbed all his knowledge and teachings" (Darth Bane, Star Wars Darth Bane: Rule of Two), then "destroyed Sadow" (The Dark Legacy of Yavin 4: Part II codex, Star Wars The Old Republic) and continued to master the dark side for over a century, even killing more Jedi than any Sith before him. And note Plagueis' inferiority to Sadow is not just by an imperceptible gap—it's distinct enough that it is plainly apparent to Plagueis. Bringing it all together, given 67 BBY Plagueis should at least be approaching Tenebrous in power yet is weaker than Sadow, and that Sadow was far less powerful than Nadd, the crossover leaves little doubt that Nadd was more powerful than Tenebrous.

V. CONCLUSION

Naga Sadow and Exar Kun had the ability to extend their corporeal life by draining energies released during the death of others. In 67 BBY, Darth Plagueis concludes with certainty that the fact they could do this means either they were "genuinely more powerful than him" or the galactic dark side tilt empowered them to be more powerful than him. Either option makes Sadow and Kun more powerful than Plagueis for the purposes of versus debating. Plagueis at this time is repeatedly indicated to be at least approaching Darth Tenebrous in power, whereas Freedon Nadd was far more powerful than Sadow, revealing Nadd was more powerful than Tenebrous. These facts provide a strong groundwork for other Old Republic era Force users—especially Darth Malak, Revan, and Vitiate—to be compared with prequel trilogy heavyweights.


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:02 pm; edited 7 times in total
NotAA3
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A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  Empty Re: A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians

on Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:05 pm
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A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  1289255181 Good post.
IG
IG
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on Fri Mar 13, 2020 11:16 pm
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Great post
Nute_Chethray
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A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  Empty Re: A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians

on Sat Mar 14, 2020 12:17 am
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Marvelous post
Necromancer76
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A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  Empty Re: A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians

on Sat Mar 14, 2020 12:25 am
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Resplendent, I'm glad the Ancient Sith are moving up in terms of power
LadyKulvax
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on Sat Mar 14, 2020 12:44 am
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Top notch post. Freedon Nadd above Tenebrous, with Exar Kun an absolutely gargantuan gap above Nadd.
DarthAnt66
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on Sat Mar 14, 2020 2:04 am
Thank you. Also, I have added an additional line to section IV-paragraph 2.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on Sat Mar 14, 2020 2:19 am
I was ready for some Bible shit but instead, I'm faced with Fischer's bearded clone. Good enough for me. I have my disagreements, but I won't argue anything this complicated just yet
Sas
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on Sat Mar 14, 2020 8:15 am
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:I was ready for some Bible shit but instead, I'm faced with Fischer's bearded clone. Good enough for me.

A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  1289255181
Geistalt
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on Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:23 am
Fascinating.
ILS
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on Sat Mar 14, 2020 1:20 pm
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 Simply put, Plagueis demonstrably does not lack the ability to drain the death energies of others, but he self-professedly does lack the ability to do so to the extent that it extends his corporeal life. Although Plagueis has an easy excuse for why he cannot replicate what the ancient Sith do—the knowledge is lost—he still maintains the fact they can do it as proof of their superiority. Plagueis makes this assessment with his high-end mastery of the dark side, considerable knowledge of Force drain, and already many decades of "experimentation and directed meditation" toward extending life. And he makes this assessment with absolute certainty; he recognizes no other explanation than the ancient Sith being superior. This is, hands down, one of the most informed and unwavering in-universe declarations in Star Wars.

Uhh, for the bolded: why, exactly? This is the crux of your argument yet zero evidence is cited for it.


In 67 BBY, Darth Plagueis concludes with certainty that the fact they could do this means either they were "genuinely more powerful than him" or the galactic dark side tilt empowered them to be more powerful than him. 
Nobody is arguing with the semantics of Plagueis' musings, but why exactly do they serve as the foundational premise for your entire argument? If this one premise cannot be supported the rest falls apart like a stack of jenga.
DarthAnt66
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on Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:31 pm
@ILS: Assuming that isn’t a joke, thank you for your concern. Expect a response within the next 6 hours.
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on Sat Mar 14, 2020 5:45 pm
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@DarthAnt66 I assure you, I was quite serious. A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  1076326320
The lord of hunger
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on Sat Mar 14, 2020 7:00 pm
A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  3948126588
DarthAnt66
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on Sat Mar 14, 2020 9:46 pm
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@ILS: Uhh, for the bolded: why, exactly? This is the crux of your argument yet zero evidence is cited for it.

I am confused what you mean by this. You bolded my conclusion sentence to two paragraphs across which I explain why Plagueis' assessment is both highly "informed and unwavering." It is one thing to say you disagree with my arguments, but it is another thing to just ignore everything I wrote. Nevertheless, let's take an expanded look. 

As section II-paragraph 1 shows, Plagueis is knowledgeable on both variants of Force drain: drain life and drain Force. Plagueis knows drain life from the Rule of Two document, and he is shown to be instructing Palpatine in drain Force. The descriptions of drain Force--"severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes" / " It's all the deaths you've caused to get here. You feed on it"--match Plagueis' description of the ancient Sith death energies ability--"The Sith Lords of old were said to have been able to draw on the energies released during death to extend their own lives, as well as the lives of others." Further, this connection between drain Force and the ancient Sith death energies ability is consistent with Kreia's comments that drain Force was "the greatest of the [ancient] Sith teachings." Altogether, Plagueis is verifiably "able to draw on the energies released during death," and so is first-hand knowledgeable about much of this ancient Sith death energies ability. 

Next, as section II-paragraph 2 notes, Plagueis has already many decades of "experimentation and directed meditation" toward extending life. More specifically, Plagueis was chosen by Tenebrous specifically due to his fear of death, "apprenticed to Tenebrous for as many years as the average human might live," relentlessly explored the secrets of extending life "across their long, long years together," and was even deliberately encouraged by Tenebrous to hyper-fixate on all this. All of this is to say that Plagueis is also very knowledgeable about extending life. He has already spent more raw hours investigating ways to accomplish it than almost any other Sith in history. 

So, Plagueis knows a lot about the ancient Sith death energies ability, a lot about extending life, and is an ultra-powerful and masterful Banite Sith to utilize all this. That makes Plagueis uniquely informed to state that the fact Sadow and Kun can drain the death energies of others to extend life makes them more powerful. Given Plagueis is absolutely certain in his conclusion, why would we doubt him? That means he has enough information about this comparison to be absolutely certain in his conclusion. To doubt him as a reliable source when Plagueis is absolutely certain in his conclusion means either he is (A) misinformed to the degree that he is unwaveringly confident in a falsehood or (B) simply insane. Option (A) is refuted by the fact that Plagueis, again, "knows a lot about the ancient Sith death energies ability, a lot about extending life, and is an ultra-powerful and masterful Banite Sith to utilize all this." Option (B) is never suggested in Darth Plagueis and would call into doubt almost all the novel's narration. Further, if option (B) were true, then why would his insanity manifest through begrudgingly conceding inferiority to ancient Sith?

Here's a good analogy. Picture a mathematician that can't crack a terribly challenging math problem. However, he knows a lot about the math problem, has dedicated his whole life to researching the math problem and math problems like it, and is world-renowned mathematician. If that mathematician then states with absolutely certainty that those who have cracked this math problem are greater mathematicians than he is, that's an extremely credible declaration. Now, picture someone who knows math by reading some of the textbooks of this mathematician, has no first-hand conception of this math problem and math problems like it, and considered the math problem for only a few years. If that someone then baselessly dismisses the world-renowned mathematician's declaration as unreliable, that would be pretty silly. Wouldn't it?
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on Sat Mar 14, 2020 10:12 pm
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@DarthAnt66

So, Plagueis knows a lot about the ancient Sith death energies ability, a lot about extending life, and is an ultra-powerful and masterful Banite Sith to utilize all this. That makes Plagueis uniquely informed to state that the fact Sadow and Kun can drain the death energies of others to extend life makes them more powerful.

Why? As you rightly pointed out, the secret behind getting that part of the technique to work was lost some time ago. Clearly Plagueis is uninformed about the technique.

To be clear:

Premise: Sadow can extend his life with Drain Force, Plagueis can't because he lacks the knowledge, therefore Nadd is more powerful than Tenebrous.

Evidence: Plagueis floats it as a possible explanation for why he can't do it, alongside another... about a technique he lacks full knowledge of.

My question: given that Plagueis is clearly uninformed about the technique and the particular reason he can't use it fully, why is his word evidence that they are more powerful?

Your answer: because he knows a lot of stuff.

A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  1076326320

Given Plagueis is absolutely certain in his conclusion, why would we doubt him? That means he has enough information about this comparison to be absolutely certain in his conclusion. To doubt him as a reliable source when Plagueis is absolutely certain in his conclusion means either he is (A) misinformed to the degree that he is unwaveringly confident in a falsehood or (B) simply insane.

Or... and grab hold of something solid for this one... maybe, over the next few decades, Plagueis learned more about the Force and the possibilities he had floated earlier weren't true? Plagueis is fallible like anyone else. Also... he's not certain about his conclusion... that's why he floats a minimum of two possibilities, neither of which he is sure of.

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If that someone then baselessly dismisses the world-renowned mathematician's declaration as unreliable, that would be pretty silly. Wouldn't it?

About as silly as your latest rebuttal, and the false analogy contained within, yeah. Thanks for the chuckle Antkins.

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DarthAnt66
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A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  Empty Re: A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians

on Sun Mar 15, 2020 12:51 am
Message reputation : 100% (5 votes)
@ILS:

A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  Y0iLqwc

Plagueis demonstrably knows the fundamentals of the death energy ability, just not to the extent that he can extend life like Sadow and Kun could. However, the fact Plagueis lacks this full knowledge is explicitly irrelevant to his concession of inferiority according to Plagueis himself. Plagueis holds there are only two possible reasons why the ancient Sith are able to do this and he cannot—either of which makes Sadow and Kun more powerful than him—and not also a third option that its due to his lack of knowledge. Obviously, the fact Plagueis dismisses the third option means he has reason to dismiss the third option. What arrogant Sith wants to concede inferiority to other Sith if he can help it? Either you believe that Plagueis has enough information to make that judgment—which is substantiated by his extensive knowledge of Force drain, extending life, and the Force in general built up across almost a century—or that he is misinformed to the degree that he is absolutely certain in a falsehood. Same "either" applies for your later point that maybe-possibly Plagueis eventually finds out new information that changes his mind. What did Plagueis find out that completely overturned his last century of research to the point that an assessment he made with absolute certainty was wrong? And why is this never mentioned anywhere? This isn't a place for your Kraytheories. You have offered nothing besides false pretenses and a baseless "maybe not" despite Plagueis reassuring, "definitely." 

Arguing "Plagueis is not certain about his conclusion, that's why he floats a minimum of two possibilities, neither of which he sure of" is both a red herring and an ironic reversal of your initial position that, "Nobody is arguing with the semantics of Plagueis' musings." You just did, despite the fact I already addressed this. While Plagueis is indeed unsure whether the ancient Sith were more powerful due to inherent or galactic factors, note either option yields a definitive conclusion that they were more powerful. To argue Plagueis' closed-ended question does not preclude other unstated options—especially options that oppose the framework and underlying conclusion' of the existing options—is analogous to arguing "Did [the Star Forge] provide [Darth Malak] with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?" does not also preclude other unstated options—such as "or it did not provide Malak with powers far greater than Kun nor Nadd anyway?" The usage of "or" generates a yes-no question that semantically constrains both the Malak and Plagueis quote to the two options. Sorry.

[hideedit]About as silly as your latest rebuttal, and the false analogy contained within, yeah. Thanks for the chuckle Antkins.

A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  EH2rThu


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Sun Mar 15, 2020 7:59 am; edited 4 times in total
lorenzo.r.2nd
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A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  Empty Re: A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians

on Sun Mar 15, 2020 1:54 am
yall need to be more chill tbh. sarcasm leads to more sarcasm and then it leads to bullshit discussions
KingofBlades
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A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  Empty Re: A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians

on Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:20 am
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
We know that Plagueis is aware of the fact that part of the technique has been lost to time. However this does not stop Plagueis from proclaiming the ancients as superior to himself. For someone as analytical and scientifically orientated as Plagueis is, he would not make such a proclamation unless he felt the evidence was so strong that he could not deny it. I don't see why Plagueis's lack of complete knowledge about force drain should be seen as a big deal when Darth Plagueis himself disagrees with the idea. We have a Dark Lord of the Sith, a master of the ways and intricacies of the force, wholly convinced the available evidence is sufficiently strong enough to concede he is inferior to the ancients, and an internet dude disagreeing with him. I think it should be self evident that our grasp of the metaphysical mechanics of what makes one force feat more impressive than another, or what type of or how much evidence is sufficient to justify a proclamation of superiority should be immensely inferior to an actual force user in the star wars universe. This is doubly true for a force user as masterful as Darth Plagueis.

Plagueis growing in power and knowledge doesn't invalidate his earlier analysis of where he stands next to the ancient sith. Would you dismiss any opinion Darth Sidious had before DE because he knows more in DE than he did in previous incarnations? "Also... he's not certain about his conclusion". While Plagueis is indeed unsure of why the ancients were more powerful than him, his conclusion doesn't waver. Plagueis believes the ancient sith were more powerful than himself.
Geistalt
Geistalt

A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  Empty Re: A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians

on Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:41 am
As of 67 BBY.
KingofBlades
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A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  Empty Re: A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians

on Sun Mar 15, 2020 2:49 am
Of course. I'm not arguing the ancients are above Peak Plagueis. The scaling revolves around Tenebrous after all. Sorry for the confusion, poor wording on my part
ILS
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A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  Empty Re: A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians

on Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:14 am
Message reputation : 100% (5 votes)
@DarthAntkins66 A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  39523600

Plagueis demonstrably knows the fundamentals of the death energy ability, just not to the extent that he can extend life like Sadow and Kun could. However, the fact Plagueis lacks this full knowledge is explicitly irrelevant to his concession of inferiority according to Plagueis himself. Plagueis holds there are only two possible reasons why the ancient Sith are able to do this and he cannot—either of which makes Sadow and Kun more powerful than him—and not also a third option that its due to his lack of knowledge.

To be clear, the crux of your entire argument is whether or not Plagueis is informed enough to make a decision about whether having the full knowledge of Force Drain would make the Ancient Sith "more powerful" than himself, or whether this is solely due to the Dark Side "being more prominent" at the time, allowing them to tap into these abilities more easily. So, let's examine whether that's true or not. The first thing to know, then, is what Plagueis himself means when he says "more powerful". It seems clear enough that what he means is "Knowledge is power." He believes that he who has the greatest knowledge of the dark side is the most powerful with it. Specifically, he seems to define power as the ability to achieve a precise effect with the Force, such as extending corporeal life. Moreover, as you will see below, "extending life", to Plagueis, means exactly the same thing as inducing midichlorians to "create new cells", allowing the Sith Lord to "survive death", and it is this knowledge which Plagueis is accusing the ancient Sith of taking to the grave with them, not Force Drain.

Darth Plagueis wrote:According to his Sith education, since Captain Lah and the others had been in some sense dead from the moment Plagueis’s gaze had alighted on the freighter, it followed that the midi-chlorians that resided in alleged symbiosis with them must have been preparing to be subsumed into the reservoir of life energy that was the Force long before Plagueis had stowed away. His attempts to save them—to prolong that state of symbiosis—were comparable to using a sponge to dam a raging river. And yet the Sith Lords of old were said to have been able to draw on the energies released during death to extend their own lives, as well as the lives of others. Unfortunately, much like the technique of essence transfer, that ancient knowledge had been lost.

In the above quote, Plagueis seeks to extend the state of symbiosis between midichlorians and life, but to him trying to do that is like using a "sponge to dam a raging river". He then states that the ancient Sith were, despite this subsuming of midichlorians into the Force, able to instead "draw on the energies released during death to extend their own lives" - however, "that ancient knowledge had been lost". The key thing to understand here, and more clearly later on, is that Plagueis is confusing two abilities, and frankly, you can be somewhat forgiven for missing this as it did not occur to me until I gave it proper thought myself: Plagueis has heard tales of ancient Sith Lords being able to "draw on the energies released during death", which as you well know is the Force Drain technique which he and Sidious display in 52BBY - however, and this is key, in this specific passage, Plagueis does not equate the drawing on "energies released during death" to the Force Drain technique - in his mind, the Sith of old were able to draw on the midichlorians before they were subsumed into the Force. Hence:

His attempts to save them—to prolong that state of symbiosis—were comparable to using a sponge to dam a raging river. And yet the Sith Lords of old were said to have been able to draw on the energies released during death to extend their own lives, as well as the lives of others. Unfortunately, much like the technique of essence transfer, that ancient knowledge had been lost.

But Plagueis is clearly wrong, here, because no ancient Sith - whether it be Andeddu, the Dark Jedi Exiles, Ragnos, Sadow, Nadd or Kun - were actually able to extend their lives or survive death with this technique. Andeddu and Muur used Essence Transfer, Ragnos died of old age, Sadow utilized stasis, Nadd possessed his descendants on Onderon as a spirit, and Kun "survived death" as an anchored spirit on Yavin.

So when Plagueis muses "If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to [survive death by preventing the subsuming of midichlorians into the Force, drawing on them instead to prevent cell death and achieve immortality]" he is doing so while setting the Ancient Sith to a standard we all know well they do not actually live up to.

Darth Plagueis wrote:While midi-chlorians appeared to resist manipulation of a sort that might imperil the balance of the Force, they remained passive, even compliant, in the case of a weak-willed being manipulated by one who was strong in the Force. Perhaps that explained why it was often easier to call on the Force to heal someone other than oneself. Extending life, then, could hinge on something as simple as being able to induce midi-chlorians to create new cells; to subdivide at will, increasing their numbers into the tens of thousands to heal or replace damaged, aging, or metastatic cells. Midi-chlorians had to be compelled to serve the needs of the body; to bestow strength when needed; to overcome physical insult, or prevent cells from reaching senescence.

If one accepted the tales handed down in accounts and holocrons, the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this. But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras? Some commentators claimed that the ability to survive death had been limited to those with a talent for sorcery and alchemy, and that the use of such practices actually predated the arrival of the Dark Jedi exiles on Korriban. But sorcery had been employed less to extend life than to create illusions, fashion beasts, and resurrect the dead.

I'm not sure why, in your original analysis, you chose not to mention that Plagueis believed the ancient Sith capable of using the Force to "induce midi-chlorians to create new cells; to subdivide at will, increasing their numbers into the tens of thousands to heal or replace damaged, aging, or metastatic cells. Midi-chlorians had to be compelled to serve the needs of the body; to bestow strength when needed; to overcome physical insult, or prevent cells from reaching senescence.", despite having the passage right in front of you? I'm guessing it just went over your head? A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  2960029119

The "this" is not bifurcated from inducing midichlorians to create life any more than Plagueis' use of the term "extending life" is from "surviving death" or "preventing cells from reaching senescence", senescence meaning "the condition or process of deterioration with age. loss of a cell's power of division and growth."

I mean, it's clear when he says "Some commentators claimed that the ability to survive death" immediately proceeding from "If one accepted the tales [...] the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this." that the standard he is holding the ancient Sith to is not merely extending their lives but extending their lives indefinitely by overcoming cell death, using midi-chlorians to "create new cells". Specifically, the standard upon which he floats his theories is "the ability to survive death".

Which is made all the more clear in the proceeding passages:

Darth Plagueis wrote:Darth Bane had referred to sorcery as one of the purest expressions of the dark side of the Force, and yet he hadn’t been able to harness those energies with near the skill as had his onetime apprentice Zannah. Bane’s disciples, however, believed that he had experimented with a technique of even greater significance: that of essence transfer, which he had learned after acquiring and plundering the holocron of Darth Andeddu, and which involved the relocation of an individual’s consciousness into another body or, in some cases, a talisman, temple, or sarcophagus. Thus had the most powerful of the ancient Sith Lords survived death to haunt and harass those who would infiltrate their tombs.

But none of this amounted to corporeal survival.

Plagueis had no interest in being a lingering, disembodied presence, trapped between worlds and powerless to affect the material realm except through the actions of weak-minded beings he could goad, coax, or will into action. Nor did he seek to shunt his mind into the body of another, whether an apprentice, as Bane was thought to have attempted, or some vat-grown clone. Nothing less than the immortality of his body and mind would suffice.

Plagueis believes that the most powerful of the ancient Sith Lords survived death due to the fact they had knowledge of a technique of "even greater significance" than Sith Sorcery: Essence Transfer. However, he also makes the point that this was nothing more than a half-measure, something he had "no interest" in pursuing and "nothing less" than true biological immortality would suffice. Moreover, this is another example of how Plagueis, perhaps mistakenly, believes that the root of power is knowledge and knowledge alone - Darth Bane learned Essence Transfer, and yet, it did not make him more powerful. We have countless other examples within the Darth Bane trilogy of Bane's powers increasing as his knowledge of the dark side increased, but with Andeddu's holocron, he found nothing of value initially due to the fact he had plundered better Holocrons, and after learning Essence Transfer, there is no mention of it having increased his powers - he simply needed the knowledge to perform a given technique, much like how in the past, Bane believed he was too weak in the Force to construct his Holocron and flew into fits of rage, trying to summon additional power to achieve the configuration of the crystal matrix, and yet, all he required was the knowledge of how to construct a holocron, not additional power, and upon gaining this knowledge, he didn't experience a surge in dark side power... he simply had the instruction manual for the first time. Essence Transfer, even moreso than Holocron Construction, has an extremely complicated process which would have required Bane "weeks" on intense study to understand had he not plunged his consciousness directly into the Holocron, absorbing it immediately.

Darth Bane: Rule of Two wrote:Night had fallen over Ambria, but Bane was not interested in sleep. Instead he was sitting cross-legged in what remained of their camp, waiting for Zannah to return with supplies so they could rebuild. As he waited, he meditated on his most recent failure with the Holocron.

The dilemma offered no easy solution. If he pushed himself too hard, his body would betray him, causing him to make mistakes during the precise adjustments of the Holocron’s matrix. If he went slowly, conserving his strength, he would be unable to finish before the cognitive network began to degrade. The two factors worked at cross purposes, and Bane had racked his mind to find a way to balance the requirements of both time and effort.

His most recent attempt had pushed his power to its limits, bringing him to the edge of complete exhaustion. Yet even if he hadn’t made the critical error that caused the matrix to collapse, he doubted he would have been able to complete the final adjustments in time.

The more he contemplated the process, the more frustrated he became. He had failed on both sides of the spectrum, unable to finish in the allotted time and lacking the necessary strength to complete his task without error.

Was it possible there was some other essential element in the process that he was missing? Was there one more secret waiting to be unlocked that would finally allow him to create a Holocron so he could pass his wisdom and knowledge on to his successors? Or was the failure in him? Did he simply lack power? Was his command of the dark side somehow less than that of the ancient Sith Lords like Freedon Nadd?

It was an uncomfortable line of speculation, but it was one Bane forced himself to consider. He had read the histories of the great Sith Lords; many were filled with feats almost too incredible to be believed. Yet even if these accounts were true, even if some of his predecessors had had the ability to use the dark side to destroy entire worlds or make a sun go nova, Bane still felt that his power measured up to the described abilities of many of those who had successfully created Holocrons of their own.

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil wrote:For several hours he continued his work, his body perspiring heavily, until he finally found what he sought: the ritual of essence transference; Andeddu’s secret of eternal life.

With one final push of the Force, he reached out with his mind and seized what he had been searching for. With the aid of the gatekeeper the information would have taken weeks to absorb and learn. Bane, however, had gone right to the source. The knowledge streamed directly from the Holocron into his mind, raw and unfiltered. Thousands of images flooded his consciousness, an explosion of sights, sounds, and thoughts that caused him to drop the Holocron to the floor, breaking the connection.

The gatekeeper’s image vanished, leaving Bane alone in the ship, still sitting cross-legged on the floor. He was slumped forward, his breath coming in heavy gasps. His clothes were soaked in sweat; his body shivered with exhaustion.

Slowly, he got to his feet and made his way over to the pilot’s seat. He walked with the stumbling gait of a man drunk on Mandalorian wine, resting his hand on the wall for support. His head was swimming, lost in the secrets he had wrenched from the Holocron’s depths.

As he collapsed into the seat the control console began to beep softly. It took him several seconds to realize the latest hyperspace jump on his return journey was reaching an end … though there were still many more jumps to go.

He needed to plot a course for the next leg of the trip, but he was in no state to contemplate that right now. Not while his addled mind was still wrestling with what he had learned. He needed time to process the information from the Holocron, to wrap his head around it. To analyze and compartmentalize all the facts, arranging them into some semblance of rational thought.

The idea, then, on its face alone, that Naga Sadow would be more powerful than Darth Plagueis simply because he had knowledge of a technique the other lacked (a technique we now know does not exist in the form you've suggested, contrary to your reaching). Bane in the above passage, like Plagueis, goes through the uncomfortable line of speculation that what he has heard the Sith do in "tales" and "accounts" defy belief, and that they may be more powerful than him: but the grating irony you must now grapple with is that, that very inquiry, that very self-reflection is what makes Bane and Plagueis superior to the Ancient Sith, and what allowed Plagueis to tap into the "deepest strata of the Force".

Moreover, it's important to remember that the passage starts with "If one accepts the tales" - Plagueis is using deductive reasoning from the premise that one does, in fact, accept these tales, however, as now hopefully we all know, Plagueis' understanding of the tales was mistaken. The ancient Sith were not able to prevent the subsuming of midichlorians into the Force and either draw on them or utilise them to survive death - it's simply a misunderstanding, or perhaps, simply a thought experiment on Plagueis' end. A thought experiment you appear to have taken far too seriously in your fervor to start Star Wars' first reactionary political movement, the "Neo-Antediluvians", who you are cynically using as a cudgel to wield against the superior Sith of the modern era in the hopes of unashamedly and transparently fellating Revan, trying to place him into that echelon of Sith power you have toiled - and abjectly failed at - for years to include him in.

To be clear, again, Plagueis mistakenly believes that either (or both):

1. Knowledge itself is power, rather than it simply being a means by which one acquires power.

2. The ancient Sith had taken knowledge of an ability to achieve biological immortality through drawing on death energies to the grave, making them more powerful than himself.

Darth Plagueis wrote:On a philosophical level he understood why the generations of Sith Lords that had preceded him had trained apprentices, to whom they had bequeathed their knowledge of the dark side of the Force in anticipation of an eventual challenge for superiority. But with the Grand Plan culminating, it made no sense to challenge or kill beings of equal power unless they posed a threat to Plagueis’s personal destiny.

This is due to the fact Luceno purposely created the character Darth Gravid so that he could destroy the ancient knowledge in the Banite Sith's possession, not to make them inferior to the Ancient Sith, but to make them different.

A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  Gravid10

And for all your bluster about how Plagueis is making the "most informed decision in Star Wars history, totes!", you've also purposely and cynically overlooked the fact that Plagueis does not even believe in the existence of Sith Spirits, and even when confronted with the spirit of Marka Ragnos, he did not accept that he was even real:

A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  110
A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  210
A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  310

So, how then is it that "Plagueis knows a lot of stuff, yo!", in your mind, serves as a reasonable enough premise from which to conclude that Plagueis can even know for sure how his power stands relative to those who came millennia before him and whose only memory lives on through fragmented tales and accounts of their capabilities.

Lets continue with this dressing down of the argument you present here with further reference to the source material:

Darth Plagueis wrote:Only the Sith understood that sentient life was on the verge of a transformative leap; that through the manipulation of midi-chlorians—or the overthrow of the Forceful group that supervised them—the divide between organic life and the Force could be bridged, and death could be erased from the continuum.

As evidenced by those few Lords who had managed to perpetuate their spirits after physical death—foremost among them Emperor Vitiate, who was said to have lived a thousand years—the ancient Sith had come halfway across that bridge. But those few had been so focused on worldly power that they had ended up trapping themselves between realms. That they had never provided the Order with guidance from beyond attested to the fact that their influence had been negligible, and had long since faded from the world.

In the same way that the pre-Bane Sith had been responsible for their own extinction, the great dark side Lords of the past had doomed themselves to the nether realm through their attempts to conquer death by feeding off the energies of others, rather than by tapping the deepest strata of the Force and learning to speak the language of the midi-chlorians. Plagueis was finally learning to do that, and was just beginning to learn how to persuade, prompt, cajole, and coax them into action. Already he could command them to promote healing, and now he had been successful in enticing them to lower their defenses. If he could compel a murderous Yinchorri to become peaceful, could he—with a mere suggestion—accomplish the opposite by turning a peaceful being into a murderer? Would he one day be able to influence the leaders of worlds and systems to act according to his designs, however iniquitous? Would he one day conquer not only death but life, as well, by manipulating midi-chlorians to produce Forceful beings, even in the absence of fertilization, as Darth Tenebrous might have attempted to do with gene-splicing techniques and computers?

Perhaps.

But not until the singular flame of the light side was extinguished from the galaxy. Not until the Jedi Order was stamped out.

Oh - sorry, what was that, Plagueis, my good man?

"In the same way that the pre-Bane Sith had been responsible for their own extinction, the great dark side Lords of the past had doomed themselves to the nether realm through their attempts to conquer death by feeding off the energies of others, rather than by tapping the deepest strata of the Force and learning to speak the language of the midi-chlorians."

It seems, then, that one should not "accept the tales" of ancient Sith Lords who could survive death by drawing on the death energies of others.

DarthAntKins66 wrote:Either you believe that Plagueis has enough information to make that judgment—which is substantiated by his extensive knowledge of Force drain, extending life, and the Force in general built up across almost a century—or that he is misinformed to the degree that he is absolutely certain in a falsehood. Same "either" applies for your later point that maybe-possibly Plagueis eventually finds out new information that changes his mind. What did Plagueis find out that completely overturned his last century of research to the point that an assessment he made with absolute certainty was wrong? And why is this never mentioned anywhere? This isn't a place for your Kraytheories. You have offered nothing besides false pretenses and a baseless "maybe not" despite Plagueis reassuring, "definitely."

Why is it never mentioned anywhere, my child? in fact, it was indeed mentioned, in the very book you have just spent weeks, perhaps months, plumbing the depths of in order to create this argument, with the added assistance of several fellow debaters. I have picked up my PDF copy of Darth Plagueis this morning for the first time in what has easily been months or years, specifically in regards to these passages, and yet I've been able to understand the misconception Plagueis had about Force Drain in a fraction of the time it took you to create a half-baked, cynical line of argumentation and failed still to take the correct meaning from the book.

And please do not misunderstand me, my little friend, in thinking that I am highlighting an intellectual failing on either your end or those you consort with to bring down the Banite Sith. It is my belief that if a Debater of equal disregard for evidence and honest inquiry had preceded you, then that one had taken his or her terrible arguments to the grave, or had locked them away in archived forum posts that had been destroyed or had yet to surface. Indeed, my little friend, in this regard you appear to be without equal.

Just to put the nail in the coffin, then, lets consider the final relevant passage I have at my disposal:

Darth Plagueis wrote:Still in safekeeping on Aborah were texts and holocrons that recounted the deeds and abilities of Sith Masters who, so it was said and written, had been able to summon wind or rain or fracture the skies with conjured lightning. In their own words or those of their disciples, a few Dark Lords claimed to have had the ability to fly, become invisible, or transport themselves through space and time. But Plagueis had never succeeded in duplicating any of those phenomena.

From the start Tenebrous had told him that he lacked the talent for Sith sorcery, even though the inability hadn’t owed to a deficiency of midi-chlorians. It’s an innate gift, the Bith would say when pressed, and one that he had lacked, as well. Sorcery paled in comparison with Bith science, regardless. But Plagueis now understood that Tenebrous had been wrong about sorcery, as he had been wrong about so many things. Yes, the gift was strongest in those who, with scant effort, could allow themselves to be subsumed by the currents of the Force and become conduits for the powers of the dark side. But there was an alternative path to those abilities, and it led from a place where the circle closed on itself and sheer will substituted for selflessness. Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn’t master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

The question of whether he and Sidious had discovered something new or rediscovered something ancient was beside the point. All that mattered was that, almost a decade earlier, they had succeeded in willing the Force to shift and tip irrevocably to the dark side. Not a mere paradigm shift, but a tangible alteration that could be felt by anyone strong in the Force, and whether or not trained in the Sith or Jedi arts.

The key note here is that Plagueis defines power as having knowledge and secrets which allows the Sith to use particular "powers". The "powers beyond his reach" at the start of the book include the ability to "survive death" and achieve true biological immortality via midichlorian manipulation. He notes later that the ancient Sith had "only come halfway" and "doomed themselves" attempting to use the very technique which you have mistakenly taken to believing that 1. Plagueis lacks a full mastery of and 2. Believe would actually make them more powerful than Plagueis due to having knowledge of alone.

Also key: "The question of whether he and Sidious had discovered something new or rediscovered something ancient was beside the point." - something you also seem to be gravely misinformed about, a delusion you are labouring under with an impressive amount of strain, is the idea that Plagueis is certain the Sith would have to be more powerful than him in order to use Force Drain fully. But now that we know that Plagueis' own understanding of what the ancient Sith had achieved in the tales was predicated on whether one chose to "believe" in those tales that the ancient Sith were masters of midichlorian manipulation, something patently untrue, we can see why, even as of 32BBY, Plagueis still has the "question" of whether or not a prior Sith had truly induced midichlorians to create life - but now that he himself can do this, the question is irrelevant to him. If Plagueis was as "certain" in his thought experiment as you are insisting, he would not still be wondering in 32BBY if he had been the only one to achieve this effect with the Force.

But most critically: even as of 52BBY, Plagueis has understood that the ancient Sith "doomed themselves" in their attempts to extend life by drawing on death energies, and since that point, the only question left to him was whether or not a prior Sith had achieved midichlorian manipulation to induce cell growth.

I would more easily forgive a novice for making the mistakes you have made, which are reminiscent of those halcyon days where users would take literally Darth Sidious' lies to Darth Plagueis about Darth Maul not being a true Sith apprentice, than I would forgive you for this blunder. Because, while a novice may only have an attenuated understanding of the lore by seeing the few out-of-context quotes, such as when they would see the quotes of Darth Sidious' lies without seeing the quotes about him living a "double life" and having an "almost filial bond" with Maul, you, DarthAntKins66, newly christened, my dear child, have not only been a debater as long as I have, have not only read Darth Plagueis cover to cover at least once - you have plumbed it's depths alongside several companions several times in a bid to find new and creative ways to subvert the Banite Sith... and you have still failed to present the correct meaning given by the text.

Not only have you given a false reading - you have presented an argument that is dripping, practically gushing with bias, cynicism and agenda, and the more I consider the arguments you have put forward, the more I realize that attempting to comprehend, to hold in your mind, such a cataclysmic disregard for evidence and reason, would be akin  "using a sponge to dam a raging river."

However, there is some credit due to you:

DarthAntKins66 wrote:Arguing "Plagueis is not certain about his conclusion, that's why he floats a minimum of two possibilities, neither of which he sure of" is both a red herring and an ironic reversal of your initial position that, "Nobody is arguing with the semantics of Plagueis' musings."

You are correct, yes. I changed my position, and rather quickly at that. I have good reason to do so. You see, I accepted some of the premises in your blog here due to the fact it is extremely well organized in its presentation, and puts forward many layered premises with just as many citations in a fairly complicated manner, which is why you have been forced to divide this convoluted shitheap into "Sections" with Roman numerals. However, upon probing you for deeper insight into your argument, and reading the text for myself, I came upon something truly remarkable. I realized that there existed evidence which would contradict a false conclusion I had been labouring under moments prior. As a wise mustache-twirling German philosopher once said:

“Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.”

And you, DarthAntKins66, newly christened, my little friend, appear to labour under the spine-crushing weight of a great-many convictions, convictions so heavy that they force you to become an unparalleled contortionist with regards to true scholarly inquiry, evidence and basic logic. Your skills as a rhetorical acrobatic, swiftly ducking and dodging anything that could possibly resemble a conclusion following from a sound premise, will surely in time be thought of as nothing short of legendary.

DarthAntKins66 wrote:This isn't a place for your Kraytheories.

Indeed, this is not a place for "Kraytheories" - that would be more appropriate for threads such as this one, wherein you presented a self-written, fan-fiction version of a comic script that diverged so violently from reality that I nearly felt my own midichlorians subsume into the Force as my very essence cried out in pandemonium, as my very psyche was nearly consumed, my spirit torn asunder by Chaos itself.

A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  Cringe10

A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  1076326320

Back to the drawing board with you and your fellow reactionaries, then, my little friend. I'm eagerly awaiting your next ill-fated foray into that ever-illusive realm known as making even the slightest amount of sense possible.
Geistalt
Geistalt

A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  Empty Re: A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians

on Sun Mar 15, 2020 10:38 am
What does the dark side prevailing (and assumedly providing more strength-amplifying paraphernalia in the Old Republic era than the Banite Sith era) as opposed to being "genuinely stronger" have to do with providing a means of avoiding cell death/senescence?

Additionally, if the cause of them being "genuinely more powerful" is due to their knowledge, they're still more powerful.

Not that knowledge is the only kind of power.
> Korriban
> Korriban
Level One
Level One

A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  Empty Re: A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians

on Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:16 am
@ILS wrote:if a Debater of equal disregard for evidence and honest inquiry had preceded you, then that one had taken his or her terrible arguments to the grave, or had locked them away in archived forum posts that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  39523600

Got burned worse then MFV
Geistalt
Geistalt

A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  Empty Re: A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians

on Mon Mar 16, 2020 12:33 am
The issue with arguments in general is that idiots are the least easily persuaded to change their minds, to accept new ideas
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A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  Empty Re: A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians

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