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SithSauce
SithSauce
Level One
Level One

Thoughts on Darth Vader? - Page 3 Empty Re: Thoughts on Darth Vader?

on October 5th 2019, 4:21 pm
fuck me
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

Thoughts on Darth Vader? - Page 3 Empty Re: Thoughts on Darth Vader?

on October 5th 2019, 4:30 pm
Did somebody invite Erkan or MyGod?
Gaunter O'Dimm
Gaunter O'Dimm

Thoughts on Darth Vader? - Page 3 Empty Re: Thoughts on Darth Vader?

on October 6th 2019, 7:37 am
Is there any actual legit statement/quote putting suited Vader above Dooku and Maul?
BoD
BoD
Level Five
Level Five

Thoughts on Darth Vader? - Page 3 Empty Re: Thoughts on Darth Vader?

on October 6th 2019, 11:28 am
@KingofBlades wrote:Vader is in no way, shape,or form more skilled than Sidious. Sidious is a tier 9 duelist. Vader was having trouble with old ben kenobi.
BUt CAnon SAId iT!
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level One
Level One

Thoughts on Darth Vader? - Page 3 Empty Re: Thoughts on Darth Vader?

on October 6th 2019, 7:51 pm
In pure Force power, he’s moderately above Dooku. In technical skill, he’s somewhat below Obi-Wan/Maul.
ScionOfSkywalker77
ScionOfSkywalker77
Level Six
Level Six

Thoughts on Darth Vader? - Page 3 Empty Re: Thoughts on Darth Vader?

on October 13th 2019, 4:03 am
In force power he's above TPM Maul. In duelling he's marginally below TPM Kenobi. Overall he pegs out slightly above Jinn/B-Team.
SithSauce
SithSauce
Level One
Level One

Thoughts on Darth Vader? - Page 3 Empty Re: Thoughts on Darth Vader?

on October 13th 2019, 8:25 am
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:In force power he's above TPM Maul. In duelling he's marginally below TPM Kenobi. Overall he pegs out slightly above Jinn/B-Team.
Ao r u just changing your mind? U said on another thread he is Maul/Kenobi level
ScionOfSkywalker77
ScionOfSkywalker77
Level Six
Level Six

Thoughts on Darth Vader? - Page 3 Empty Re: Thoughts on Darth Vader?

on October 13th 2019, 10:15 am
Yeah, see my tiering list for full detail on many of the changes in my rankings of characters.
ScionOfSkywalker77
ScionOfSkywalker77
Level Six
Level Six

Thoughts on Darth Vader? - Page 3 Empty Re: Thoughts on Darth Vader?

on April 11th 2020, 6:48 pm
Bumping this for personal amusement and interest. Honestly I think Vader has to be one of the toughest characters to rank. The EU novels shortly following ROTS portray Vader as an absolute monster, giving him a long list of great feats and accolades but when you roll around to the films of the OT Lucas's statements make it pretty clear he doesn't think highly of the guy. While source book quotes note that the OT is Vader's peak I feel like anybody who values holistic intent should argue that they're contradicted by Vader's feats and that early Vader is his peak iteration. This is a decision I've reached with regards to Vader (And given many acknowledge the disparities between George's Grievous and the EU Grievous I see no reason why this standard should also not apply to Vader). So, that being said:

OT Vader - Sub TPM Kenobi.

Peak Vader - Roughly Maul level.
Set, The God of Chaos
Set, The God of Chaos
Level Four
Level Four

Thoughts on Darth Vader? - Page 3 Empty Re: Thoughts on Darth Vader?

on April 11th 2020, 6:58 pm
Probably substantially above TPM Maul as of ROTJ, but I'm unsure as to an exact placement.
The Dark Apprentice
The Dark Apprentice
Level Two
Level Two

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on April 11th 2020, 10:29 pm
OT Vader is sub TPM Kenobi but Prime Vader is with Maul?

Thoughts on Darth Vader? - Page 3 2864379292

Even though OT Vader is his prime

Thoughts on Darth Vader? - Page 3 39523600

See the thing is my wild Scottish friend, when you have instances where you are more impressed with an inferior version of a character IE: Dark Times Vader you do something called reconciling, which in this case roughly translates to: Vader and people who contend with him are above the PT masters and knights he killed in the purge, and there is evidence to support this. So stop being as thick as cement and start fitting the lore together naturally
Meatpants
Meatpants
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Thoughts on Darth Vader? - Page 3 Empty Re: Thoughts on Darth Vader?

on April 12th 2020, 12:48 am
Vader is below Maul and Qui-Gon, but above TPM Kenobi and say, B-team for sure.
The Dark Apprentice
The Dark Apprentice
Level Two
Level Two

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on April 12th 2020, 12:54 am
Meatpants is below Mygod101 and Lorenzo for sure
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
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on April 12th 2020, 10:49 am
The idea of 19-18 BBY Vader being his prime has crossed my mind in the past and while it’s very interesting on paper, absolutely nothing in the lore supports it in the lore, it’s merely a result of the contrast between the authors’ and Lucas’ view of the character. It’s repeatedly noted Vader’s force power and skill grew over time, not to mention that in the ROTJ novel Vader has one of the usual “more powerful than ever” quotes. OT, my placement of Vader isn’t very high at the moment, but I’m considering changing my stance.
SithSauce
SithSauce
Level One
Level One

Thoughts on Darth Vader? - Page 3 Empty Re: Thoughts on Darth Vader?

on April 12th 2020, 11:05 am
@MasterCilghal wrote:The idea of 19-18 BBY Vader being his prime has crossed my mind in the past and while it’s very interesting on paper, absolutely nothing in the lore supports it in the lore, it’s merely a result of the contrast between the authors’ and Lucas’ view of the character. It’s repeatedly noted Vader’s force power and skill grew over time, not to mention that in the ROTJ novel Vader has one of the usual “more powerful than ever” quotes. OT, my placement of Vader isn’t very high at the moment, but I’m considering changing my stance.
Or Lucas changed his mind on Vader's power level post 2005?
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
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on April 12th 2020, 11:11 am
@SithSauce wrote:Or Lucas changed his mind on Vader's power level post 2005?

I’m quite sure he didn’t, given there’s an interview with Hayden Blackman that confirms Lucas still viewed Vader in the same way in 2011. You can find it in an old thread on this site.
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

Thoughts on Darth Vader? - Page 3 Empty Re: Thoughts on Darth Vader?

on April 12th 2020, 11:46 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Ohh I see, so now Lucas’ word means something when it comes to Vader’s power being terrible. Ignoring that he has contradicted himself and per his own words doesn’t see the EU, therefore his statements would really only apply to the movies. But when it comes to other statements about Vader or other characters or scenes we just ignore them right? 
 
Let’s make up our minds here, we can’t have it both ways and I still think you guys focus far too much on author statements rather than what actually happens in lore. Authors and the like can change their minds all the time, so I don’t really see why they are viable compared to the actual in universe lore.


Last edited by Zenwolf on April 12th 2020, 11:49 am; edited 1 time in total
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

Thoughts on Darth Vader? - Page 3 Empty Re: Thoughts on Darth Vader?

on April 12th 2020, 11:47 am
legends vader? above dooku and windu 
canon vader ? seems the writers wanks him to be superior to any pt titans so yeah
knightfall vader? on par with palps as rots
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
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Thoughts on Darth Vader? - Page 3 Empty Re: Thoughts on Darth Vader?

on April 12th 2020, 12:08 pm
@Zenwolf wrote:Ohh I see, so now Lucas’ word means something when it comes to Vader’s power being terrible. Ignoring that he has contradicted himself and per his own words doesn’t see the EU, therefore his statements would really only apply to the movies. But when it comes to other statements about Vader or other characters or scenes we just ignore them right? 
 
Let’s make up our minds here, we can’t have it both ways and I still think you guys focus far too much on author statements rather than what actually happens in lore. Authors and the like can change their minds all the time, so I don’t really see why they are viable compared to the actual in universe lore.
+1
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

Thoughts on Darth Vader? - Page 3 Empty Re: Thoughts on Darth Vader?

on April 12th 2020, 4:05 pm
Ok lets not get silly. 

What feats does TPM Kenobi have that put him on ROTJ Vader's level in Force? 

Are people really suggesting that if Vader was put in Kenobi's position TPM Maul would be able to handle Vader and Qui-Gon?
Jaggarath
Jaggarath
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on April 12th 2020, 4:11 pm
@Zenwolf wrote:Ohh I see, so now Lucas’ word means something when it comes to Vader’s power being terrible. Ignoring that he has contradicted himself and per his own words doesn’t see the EU, therefore his statements would really only apply to the movies. But when it comes to other statements about Vader or other characters or scenes we just ignore them right? 
 
Let’s make up our minds here, we can’t have it both ways and I still think you guys focus far too much on author statements rather than what actually happens in lore. Authors and the like can change their minds all the time, so I don’t really see why they are viable compared to the actual in universe lore.

@Zenwolf: What do you reckon that we are ignoring?
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

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on April 12th 2020, 4:25 pm
DarthAnt66 wrote:


@Zenwolf: What do you reckon that we are ignoring?

Well I do recall a time ago, people kept arguing about the whole fight with Windu and Sidious, going back and forth that Sidious held back or Windu won the fight legit or whatever. 

There's also the thing with Sidious' Force Storms? Something with Tom and saying he didn't make them appear or whatever?

I think there was another regarding Nihilus or something about Sion and Traya. Or was it Kun?

But my point is though, authors can't really be reliable in gauging the power of a character because what they say and what is actually shown, can be two totally different things.

Or maybe the author changed his mind, but even then that wouldn't change the facts of what happened prior, this would just be the author's opinion at that point in time.

Opinions could change on a weekly, monthly or yearly basis. I'm sure everyone here, has lists changes or opinions that change every so often, nothing would be set in stone.
Jaggarath
Jaggarath
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on April 12th 2020, 4:34 pm
Author opinions are treated differently from Lucas opinions under LFL policy. Author opinions are N-Canon. Lucas opinions are G-Canon. No one's being a hypocrite here. It's the responsibility of the EU to constantly shift and adapt to conform to Lucas' greater vision, even despite the fact that Lucas does not particularly care about the EU. 

"Anything in the the novels created by George Lucas (whether it comes from unpublished early script versions, unpublished author interviews with George, or George's revisions to the novelization manuscript) would be G-level unless contradicted by the films."

"Anything in the films and from George Lucas (including unpublished internal notes that we might receive from him or from the film production department) is considered ”G” canon."

"I guess you could say there's an "in George's head at any given point in time" canon, which no one besides George knows."

"The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films."

"The EU is bound by what is seen in the most current version of the films and by directives from George Lucas."
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

Thoughts on Darth Vader? - Page 3 Empty Re: Thoughts on Darth Vader?

on April 12th 2020, 4:42 pm
@DarthAnt66

Ok and yet, despite the words of Lucas saying that Vader was crippled, slow, not a good as PT era Jedi, so on and so forth. Writers and the like reversed that within the novels, comics and so on. Showing that no, Vader was fast, he is skilled, he is powerful etc etc. But yet, people wanna cling to old statements, despite the lore showing otherwise.
Jaggarath
Jaggarath
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on April 12th 2020, 4:48 pm
@Zenwolf: Lucas' commentary would take precedence over an infinite amount of C-Canon material. Though, I don't think of it as a contradiction, but rather clarification of Lucas' meaning of "slow." Vader isn't slow at all compared to fodder Jedi, but he is to higher Force users that Lucas clarifies are faster than him.

I think that's the best way to give Vader respect while staying true to LFL policy.
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