Thoughts on Darth Vader?

fuck me

Did somebody invite Erkan or MyGod?

Is there any actual legit statement/quote putting suited Vader above Dooku and Maul?

KingofBlades wrote:Vader is in no way, shape,or form more skilled than Sidious. Sidious is a tier 9 duelist. Vader was having trouble with old ben kenobi.

BUt CAnon SAId iT!

In pure Force power, he’s moderately above Dooku. In technical skill, he’s somewhat below Obi-Wan/Maul.

In force power he's above TPM Maul. In duelling he's marginally below TPM Kenobi. Overall he pegs out slightly above Jinn/B-Team.

DC77 (Reborn) wrote:In force power he's above TPM Maul. In duelling he's marginally below TPM Kenobi. Overall he pegs out slightly above Jinn/B-Team.

Ao r u just changing your mind? U said on another thread he is Maul/Kenobi level

Yeah, see my tiering list for full detail on many of the changes in my rankings of characters.

Bumping this for personal amusement and interest. Honestly I think Vader has to be one of the toughest characters to rank. The EU novels shortly following ROTS portray Vader as an absolute monster, giving him a long list of great feats and accolades but when you roll around to the films of the OT Lucas's statements make it pretty clear he doesn't think highly of the guy. While source book quotes note that the OT is Vader's peak I feel like anybody who values holistic intent should argue that they're contradicted by Vader's feats and that early Vader is his peak iteration. This is a decision I've reached with regards to Vader (And given many acknowledge the disparities between George's Grievous and the EU Grievous I see no reason why this standard should also not apply to Vader). So, that being said:

OT Vader - Sub TPM Kenobi.

Peak Vader - Roughly Maul level.

Probably substantially above TPM Maul as of ROTJ, but I'm unsure as to an exact placement.

OT Vader is sub TPM Kenobi but Prime Vader is with Maul?



Even though OT Vader is his prime



See the thing is my wild Scottish friend, when you have instances where you are more impressed with an inferior version of a character IE: Dark Times Vader you do something called reconciling, which in this case roughly translates to: Vader and people who contend with him are above the PT masters and knights he killed in the purge, and there is evidence to support this. So stop being as thick as cement and start fitting the lore together naturally

Vader is below Maul and Qui-Gon, but above TPM Kenobi and say, B-team for sure.

Meatpants is below Mygod101 and Lorenzo for sure

The idea of 19-18 BBY Vader being his prime has crossed my mind in the past and while it’s very interesting on paper, absolutely nothing in the lore supports it in the lore, it’s merely a result of the contrast between the authors’ and Lucas’ view of the character. It’s repeatedly noted Vader’s force power and skill grew over time, not to mention that in the ROTJ novel Vader has one of the usual “more powerful than ever” quotes. OT, my placement of Vader isn’t very high at the moment, but I’m considering changing my stance.

MasterCilghal wrote:The idea of 19-18 BBY Vader being his prime has crossed my mind in the past and while it’s very interesting on paper, absolutely nothing in the lore supports it in the lore, it’s merely a result of the contrast between the authors’ and Lucas’ view of the character. It’s repeatedly noted Vader’s force power and skill grew over time, not to mention that in the ROTJ novel Vader has one of the usual “more powerful than ever” quotes. OT, my placement of Vader isn’t very high at the moment, but I’m considering changing my stance.

Or Lucas changed his mind on Vader's power level post 2005?

SithSauce wrote:Or Lucas changed his mind on Vader's power level post 2005?

I’m quite sure he didn’t, given there’s an interview with Hayden Blackman that confirms Lucas still viewed Vader in the same way in 2011. You can find it in an old thread on this site.

Ohh I see, so now Lucas’ word means something when it comes to Vader’s power being terrible. Ignoring that he has contradicted himself and per his own words doesn’t see the EU, therefore his statements would really only apply to the movies. But when it comes to other statements about Vader or other characters or scenes we just ignore them right? 
 
Let’s make up our minds here, we can’t have it both ways and I still think you guys focus far too much on author statements rather than what actually happens in lore. Authors and the like can change their minds all the time, so I don’t really see why they are viable compared to the actual in universe lore.

legends vader? above dooku and windu 
canon vader ? seems the writers wanks him to be superior to any pt titans so yeah
knightfall vader? on par with palps as rots

Zenwolf wrote:Ohh I see, so now Lucas’ word means something when it comes to Vader’s power being terrible. Ignoring that he has contradicted himself and per his own words doesn’t see the EU, therefore his statements would really only apply to the movies. But when it comes to other statements about Vader or other characters or scenes we just ignore them right? 
 
Let’s make up our minds here, we can’t have it both ways and I still think you guys focus far too much on author statements rather than what actually happens in lore. Authors and the like can change their minds all the time, so I don’t really see why they are viable compared to the actual in universe lore.

+1

Ok lets not get silly. 

What feats does TPM Kenobi have that put him on ROTJ Vader's level in Force? 

Are people really suggesting that if Vader was put in Kenobi's position TPM Maul would be able to handle Vader and Qui-Gon?

Zenwolf wrote:Ohh I see, so now Lucas’ word means something when it comes to Vader’s power being terrible. Ignoring that he has contradicted himself and per his own words doesn’t see the EU, therefore his statements would really only apply to the movies. But when it comes to other statements about Vader or other characters or scenes we just ignore them right? 
 
Let’s make up our minds here, we can’t have it both ways and I still think you guys focus far too much on author statements rather than what actually happens in lore. Authors and the like can change their minds all the time, so I don’t really see why they are viable compared to the actual in universe lore.

@Zenwolf: What do you reckon that we are ignoring?

DarthAnt66 wrote:


@Zenwolf: What do you reckon that we are ignoring?

Well I do recall a time ago, people kept arguing about the whole fight with Windu and Sidious, going back and forth that Sidious held back or Windu won the fight legit or whatever. 

There's also the thing with Sidious' Force Storms? Something with Tom and saying he didn't make them appear or whatever?

I think there was another regarding Nihilus or something about Sion and Traya. Or was it Kun?

But my point is though, authors can't really be reliable in gauging the power of a character because what they say and what is actually shown, can be two totally different things.

Or maybe the author changed his mind, but even then that wouldn't change the facts of what happened prior, this would just be the author's opinion at that point in time.

Opinions could change on a weekly, monthly or yearly basis. I'm sure everyone here, has lists changes or opinions that change every so often, nothing would be set in stone.

@DarthAnt66

Ok and yet, despite the words of Lucas saying that Vader was crippled, slow, not a good as PT era Jedi, so on and so forth. Writers and the like reversed that within the novels, comics and so on. Showing that no, Vader was fast, he is skilled, he is powerful etc etc. But yet, people wanna cling to old statements, despite the lore showing otherwise.

@Zenwolf: Lucas' commentary would take precedence over an infinite amount of C-Canon material. Though, I don't think of it as a contradiction, but rather clarification of Lucas' meaning of "slow." Vader isn't slow at all compared to fodder Jedi, but he is to higher Force users that Lucas clarifies are faster than him.

I think that's the best way to give Vader respect while staying true to LFL policy.