Thoughts on Darth Vader?

Bruh, what has happened since then, lol.

I hold prime ROTJ Vader around ROTS Dooku level. KFV is an equal to Yoda and Revan for me. ROTJ Vader is probably above Act III portages, but below SoR protags. Probably takes 6/10 with Katarn and Corran.

I hold prime ROTJ Vader around ROTS Dooku level.

What?

OT - Above Dooku solidly, below Plagueis and comparable to Mace.

At the moment, around TPM Maul level.

At his peak which imo was around 18-17 BBY I would place him a little above Dooku and Maul, but still below tier 9. By 0 BBY I have him considerably below the PT greats, at best a high 6. He improves considerably by 3-4 ABY but he's still below TPM Kenobi.

Dooku +.

Suit Darth Vader is comparable in power to the likes of RotS Kenobi but I think his skill in lightsaber combat is somewhat below Kenobi. Unhindered pre suit Lord Vader is on a level that's above the other PT greats when he's at his best. That's neglecting to mention he's arguably a reality warper when motivated enough.

O-Siri wrote:At his peak which imo was around 18-17 BBY I would place him a little above Dooku and Maul, but still below tier 9. By 0 BBY I have him considerably below the PT greats, at best a high 6. He improves considerably by 3-4 ABY but he's still below TPM Kenobi.

Do you realize just how much Vader would had to have atrophied to go from above Dooku to sub TPM Kenobi? A claim that big requires evidence that just isn't present in the lore.

The idea that Vader went from above Dooku to below TPM Kenobi is silly, yeah.

Ben didn't actually decrease in his power in the Force, if anything he increased. And RotS Kenobi was holding his own against a bonafide tier 9 in the form of MFV, and accomplishing other insane feats like his sprinting feat. Suited Vader is a tier 8 with severe physical impairments due to the designs of his suit. He's disproportionately weaker in a duel compared to the Force power at his disposal, and the problem with that is, even power gaps like Sheev vs Maul, or even Luke vs Caedus, aren't necessarily enough to allow for ragdolling. And lightsaber duels, even if you are not physically impaired, aren't the best judge of raw power - that would be more along the lines of lightning and TK battles or even telepathic/spirit battles to an extent. Lightsaber duels rely on the limits of the physical body, strategy, fighting styles, the environment and other randomness that doesn't influence raw Force power battles.

So basically, Vader can't fully utilize his main strengths and is forced to play to the advantage of his opponents (almost always usually acrobatic lightsaber dueling), and because of the nature of Force combat, even if someone is below his weight class in power, Vader can't ragdoll them, and is forced to fight them in a duel, where he is disproportionately weak due to the suit.

With all that said... Vader's still an extremely skilled duelist and extremely powerful. The above points I'm making are related to Maul or Dooku types, not every random Jedi Council member. If someone wants to present the quotes allegedly proving Vader is below AotC Anakin and TPM Kenobi I'd be happy to make a rebuttal.

Prime Vader must a Dooku (+) tier

KingofBlades wrote:

O-Siri wrote:At his peak which imo was around 18-17 BBY I would place him a little above Dooku and Maul, but still below tier 9. By 0 BBY I have him considerably below the PT greats, at best a high 6. He improves considerably by 3-4 ABY but he's still below TPM Kenobi.

Do you realize just how much Vader would had to have atrophied to go from above Dooku to sub TPM Kenobi? A claim that big requires evidence that just isn't present in the lore.

He's faster than 18 Kenobi who is much closer to his RotS prime than ANH Kenobi who while decidedly on the losing end of their Death Star duel was still making it a very competitive fight. And people can decline shockingly fast IRL, particularly if they lack the motivation, which Vader could very well have over the years. 

He went from an active young and ambitious Jedi killer to an old and spiritless flunky. Happens to the best of us.

ILS wrote:The idea that Vader went from above Dooku to below TPM Kenobi is silly, yeah.

Ben didn't actually decrease in his power in the Force, if anything he increased. And RotS Kenobi was holding his own against a bonafide tier 9 in the form of MFV, and accomplishing other insane feats like his sprinting feat. Suited Vader is a tier 8 with severe physical impairments due to the designs of his suit. He's disproportionately weaker in a duel compared to the Force power at his disposal, and the problem with that is, even power gaps like Sheev vs Maul, or even Luke vs Caedus, aren't necessarily enough to allow for ragdolling. And lightsaber duels, even if you are not physically impaired, aren't the best judge of raw power - that would be more along the lines of lightning and TK battles or even telepathic/spirit battles to an extent. Lightsaber duels rely on the limits of the physical body, strategy, fighting styles, the environment and other randomness that doesn't influence raw Force power battles.

So basically, Vader can't fully utilize his main strengths and is forced to play to the advantage of his opponents (almost always usually acrobatic lightsaber dueling), and because of the nature of Force combat, even if someone is below his weight class in power, Vader can't ragdoll them, and is forced to fight them in a duel, where he is disproportionately weak due to the suit.

With all that said... Vader's still an extremely skilled duelist and extremely powerful. The above points I'm making are related to Maul or Dooku types, not every random Jedi Council member. If someone wants to present the quotes allegedly proving Vader is below AotC Anakin and TPM Kenobi I'd be happy to make a rebuttal.

@DarthAnt66 @Reynard (Ethanion) @Jake You have been summoned.

@Azronger: I've been consistently on the record that Vader is around/not far off TPM Maul level, which is entirely consistent with what anything ILS said. If anything, it's likely that I rank Vader higher than ILS within a combative context. Though, to point out something:

Ben didn't actually decrease in his power in the Force, if anything he increased. 

He may not have decreased (though, for what it's worth, all the quotes saying he didn't decrease is circa TPM Obi-Wan), but Vader said to himself after sensing Obi-Wan's aura, early into the duel, and rather late into the duel that Obi-Wan's powers had diminished, so clearly he didn't increase enough for it to be noticeable. 

And Lucas still said ANH Obi-Wan is more powerful anyway.

At the moment I have him in between ROTS Kenobi and Dooku

Around Dooku level, maybe a little less. Dooku would win in a fight due to lightning, speed and agility of course. However, in raw power they're very comparable, and I'd be very tempted to say his raw power was greater.

DarthAnt66 wrote:@Azronger: I've been consistently on the record that Vader is around/not far off TPM Maul level, which is entirely consistent with what anything ILS said. If anything, it's likely that I rank Vader higher than ILS within a combative context. Though, to point out something:

Ben didn't actually decrease in his power in the Force, if anything he increased. 

He may not have decreased (though, for what it's worth, all the quotes saying he didn't decrease is circa TPM Obi-Wan), but Vader said to himself after sensing Obi-Wan's aura, early into the duel, and rather late into the duel that Obi-Wan's powers had diminished, so clearly he didn't increase enough for it to be noticeable. 

And Lucas still said ANH Obi-Wan is more powerful anyway.

I disagree that he is below TPM Maul. He has enough force feats to suggest he is superior.

A lot of these old quotes by Lucas have to be taken with a grain of salt, especially since Lucas is known to contradict himself many times. I really don't think back then Lucas had a clear cut view on Vader's character/power level, especially by ANH, where he starts of as some evil, pathetic guy who gets pushed around by imperials and Leia. It's only by the time of ESB Lucas shows that Vader is actually quite powerful i.e. Choking imperial officers from distances away without the move of a finger, besting Luke in combat etc.
Also are you sure Lucas said Ben is more powerful in a combative sense? If not then it could be left for interpretation just like the "Vader is more powerful than Luke" quote.
Vader's opinion on Obi Wan decreasing in power shouldn't mean much, especially since nearly every darksider likes to arrogantly believe that their lightside competition is weaker then they actually are i.e. Dooku against ROTS Anakin, and Sidious against Yoda. 
I think the intent is he is around Dooku level. Maybe inferior in saber skill, but has enough raw power to suggest he is at the very least his equal or slightly superior

BreakofDawn wrote:Around Dooku level, maybe a little less. Dooku would win in a fight due to lightning, speed and agility of course. However, in raw power they're very comparable, and I'd be very tempted to say his raw power was greater.

Agreed

DarthAnt66 wrote:@Azronger: I've been consistently on the record that Vader is around/not far off TPM Maul level, which is entirely consistent with what anything ILS said. If anything, it's likely that I rank Vader higher than ILS within a combative context. Though, to point out something:

Ben didn't actually decrease in his power in the Force, if anything he increased. 

He may not have decreased (though, for what it's worth, all the quotes saying he didn't decrease is circa TPM Obi-Wan), but Vader said to himself after sensing Obi-Wan's aura, early into the duel, and rather late into the duel that Obi-Wan's powers had diminished, so clearly he didn't increase enough for it to be noticeable. 

And Lucas still said ANH Obi-Wan is more powerful anyway.

I know where you hold Vader. I just tagged you because you'd probably have the quotes handy.

On par with Maul/Kenobi.

In regards to my own views on Vader, I'd say his Force Powers are definitely a league ahead of his saber skills due to the limitations of his cybernetics. In regards to Force Power, he clearly has feats and accolades that compare to Maul and Kenobi's, so in Force Power, I'd place him on their general tier. In regards to sabers, his duelling feats are clearly sub-par, getting tagged by padawans, being stalemated by Old Ben Kenobi who is a shadow of his ROTS counterpart, etc don't impress me much.

Overall, I'd say:

Force Power: Roughly equal with Maul and Kenobi, but soundly below Dooku.

Sabers: Inferior to basically all the tier 8s though I'd still place him above the 7s.

Fuck

More skilled than Sidious, but not as powerful as Sidious. He’s more skilled and powerful than Maul and Dooku though.

Vader is in no way, shape,or form more skilled than Sidious. Sidious is a tier 9 duelist. Vader was having trouble with old ben kenobi.