Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious

@NotAA3: The Son's accolades and power-level per FOTJ/Crucible would override Palpatine's accolades.

DarthAnt66 wrote:@NotAA3: The Son's accolades and power-level per FOTJ/Crucible would override Palpatine's accolades.

That's what I'm arguing???

@NotAA3

What? Why would entirely unrelated sources that claim Yoda is the most powerful Jedi in history (do they even exist?) be relevant to the intent of this statement. You're trying to make connections that aren't there to justify your wrong interpretation of a statement and have doused it with appeals to nebulous authorial intent. That's a concession.

First off, stop trying to accept concessions. It's childish and doesn't help your case at all.

Second, the PT era is the golden era of the Jedi. This is Lucas' intent. How does a dark sider beating the most powerful Jedi of the golden age of the opposition of the dark not imply Sidious is the greatest dark side practitioner in history. Hence why they are described as the "most powerful" of each side of the Force.

I couldn't care less whether The Son is the personification of the Dark Side? This discussion is on whether he wields DS power, and he clearly does per SW.com, meaning he explicitly would fall under Sidious's accolades.

Ah, so now you're changing your argument. Hmm.

Keep clinging to your one source though, as opposed to my eight. Which isn't even all of them.

@Corvinus There's quotes that declare KOTOR is the prime of the Jedi. A golden age =/= Prime

@IG Up to that time, sure, and certainly not from Lucas.

@Corvinus

First off, stop trying to accept concessions. It's childish and doesn't help your case at all.

I wouldn't have to if you actually bothered to respond to what you're quoting.

Second, the PT era is the golden era of the Jedi. This is Lucas' intent.

I disagree with this notion, but setting that aside, why does this necessitate Yoda is the most powerful Jedi in history? Just because the other eras overall weren't as good doesn't mean they can't have one fighter who is superior to Yoda.

How does a dark sider beating the most powerful Jedi of the golden age of the opposition of the dark not imply Sidious is the greatest dark side practitioner in history.

Because beating the most powerful Jedi doesn't necessitate being the most powerful dark sider? Where's your proof Valkorion couldn't beat Yoda as well?

Hence why they are described as the "most powerful" of each side of the Force.

Which can easily refer solely to that time period (i.e. ROTS), as previously stated. You're making multiple leaps in logic to assume that these quotes refer to all of history when the wording doesn't necessitate them doing so.

Ah, so now you're changing your argument. Hmm.

I haven't changed my argument? Show me where I've once altered my case, it's been pretty consistent throughout - Sidious's accolades are contradicted by the existence of The Son who "wields" Dark Side power.

Keep clinging to your one source though, as opposed to my eight. Which isn't even all of them.

Our sources don't conflict. Absolutely nothing you've posted thus far contradicts the fact that The Son "wields" DS power, as per SW.com.

Corvinus wrote:@IG Up to that time, sure, and certainly not from Lucas.

The quote specifically says that it's a better era for the Jedi than the clone wars.

Corvinus wrote:@IG Up to that time, sure, and certainly not from Lucas.

The quote specifically compares KOTOR to the clone wars. Also Lucas doesn’t even take KOTOR into account in his own view, not sure why you’re using that. All he did was say that the PT is the golden age of the Jedi compared to what we saw in the OT, not referencing any other era.

MasterCilghal wrote:

Corvinus wrote:@IG Up to that time, sure, and certainly not from Lucas.

The quote specifically compares KOTOR to the clone wars. Also Lucas doesn’t even take KOTOR into account in his own view, not sure why you’re using that. All he did was say that the PT is the golden age of the Jedi compared to what we saw in the OT, not referencing any other era.

@NotAA3

I wouldn't have to if you actually bothered to respond to what you're quoting.

I am responding to it. I'm honestly wondering if you are the one not reading.

I disagree with this notion, but setting it aside, why does this necessitate Yoda is the most powerful Jedi in history? Just because the other eras overall weren't as good doesn't mean they can't have one fighter who is superior to Yoda.

Are you talking about just Jedi? If you are, Yoda is the greatest Jedi in the history of the Order up until the purge in 19 BBY. It's only logical that he's therefore superior to all other Jedi before that time.

Because beating the most powerful Jedi doesn't necessitate being the most powerful dark sider? Where's your proof Valkorion couldn't beat Yoda as well?

We're not talking about Valkorion vs Yoda. Don't try to change the subject.
 

Which can easily refer solely to that time period (i.e. ROTS), as previously stated. You're making multiple leaps in logic to assume that these quotes refer to all of history when the wording doesn't necessitate them doing so.

Or it can easily refer to what I'm saying. The leaps are not leaps, but a step-by-step thought process based on logic and Lucas' intent.

I haven't changed my argument? Show me where I've once altered my case, it's been pretty consistent throughout - Sidious's accolades are contradicted by the existence of The Son who "wields" Dark Side power.

You asked me to cite how the Son is different from Sidious, and therefore exempt from his accolades.


The difference is that for Sidious, the dark side is an outside source of power that he has to draw from in order to use, whereas for the Son it's an internal source of energy. He can use it because he naturally has it, unlike Sidious.


I provided sources for this, but now you're saying you don't care that they do it differently.

Our sources don't conflict. Absolutely nothing you've posted thus far contradicts the fact that The Son "wields" DS power, as per SW.com.

Ah, throwing out the word "wield" again. See above.

@IG
@MasterCilghal

Oh, you mean the KOTOR campaign guide. I don't see how that takes precedence over Lucas' words and intent. It's his playground. If the game's writers think their era is better, good for them.

When stacked up against the feats and accolades of the PT era Jedi though, I can't really see one guidebook accolade trumping that.

@Corvinus

Are you talking about just Jedi? If you are, Yoda is the greatest Jedi in the history of the Order up until the purge in 19 BBY. It's only logical that he's therefore superior to all other Jedi before that time.

All entirely unsubstantiated.

We're not talking about Valkorion vs Yoda. Don't try to change the subject.

I didn't? You claimed that Sidious beating Yoda necessitates that he's the most powerful DS user in history, and I disagreed stating that there's no evidence that Yoda is more powerful than Valkorion, for instance. That's not changing the subject, that's listing an example.

Or it can easily refer to what I'm saying. The leaps are not leaps, but a step-by-step thought process based on logic and Lucas' intent.

The underlined doesn't address my rebuttal, and Lucas's intent has been refuted.  Plus, your process isn't step by step logical thinking, it's making leaps in logic and jumping to unsubstantiated conclusions.

You asked me to cite how the Son is different from Sidious, and therefore exempt from his accolades.

The difference is that for Sidious, the dark side is an outside source of power that he has to draw from in order to use, whereas for the Son it's an internal source of energy. He can use it because he naturally has it, unlike Sidious.

I provided sources for this, but now you're saying you don't care that they do it differently.

I asked for sources on how The Son is not a DS user which you've failed to provide. Again, he "wields" the Dark Side, ergo he's a DS user/practitioner and thus falls under Sidious's accolades.

Anyway, you already conceded Sidious's accolades are contradicted in another thread (click me), so there's no reason to continute this discussion.

Both are in their prime and all feats included.

Who is the victor and why?

Darth Sidious without much difficulty tbh.

Assuming that this is a Voice of Valkorion:

Valkorion can tank lightsaber blows at point blank range and produce LETHAL powers in split-second moments.

Even a LETHAL Storm of Force Lightning could not damage Arcann; it won't damage Valkorion by extension.

Palpatine will be overwhelmed sooner or later. His best option is to create a Force Maelstrom but no guarantee that this will work; this did not work for Vaylin (vs. The Outlander whose powers were shaped by Valkorion himself).

Assuming that Valkorion is an intangible presence:

Palpatine cannot figure him out in this form (nobody could). Valkorion will take him out with Drain Force, or by Reality Manipulation.

Sorry folks - time to come to terms with the bigger reality now.

Merged the threads

sidious still

Scrotum boy wins this.

Palpatine