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Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious - Page 9 Empty Re: Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious

on Mon 3 Feb 2020 - 18:11
@NotAA3 Of course not. You're not arguing Valkorion is subject to the Sith quotes because Vitiate (his considerably weaker self) was.
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Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious - Page 9 Empty Re: Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious

on Mon 3 Feb 2020 - 18:12
@Corvinus

If you knew what I meant, as you state below, then you said it for no reason.

??? I don't even understand what your argument is here.

Lol. What is it with this "I accept your concession" crap on this site?

Quotes are on the previous page as asked for by BoD.

None of those citations mention Sidious being the most powerful Dark Side User in all of history.

That's some nice mental gymnastics there. He wields his own power, as he is the incarnation of the dark side of the Force.

How is it mental gymnastics? The Son, as cited, uses the Dark Side of the Force meaning he'd fall under Sidious's "most powerful Dark Sider in history" quotes if he had any. Wield means "have and be able to use" meaning the Son has the Dark Side of the Force and is able to use it meaning, by definition, he's a Dark Sider User. None of what you've posted thus far addresses that.
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Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious - Page 9 Empty Re: Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious

on Mon 3 Feb 2020 - 18:16
RocketRaccoon wrote:
@SnowxElf wrote:TPM Sidious > any version of Valk. Valk can contend with Sheev with his force powers, although, he doesn't have the saber feats suggesting he can hold of Sheev. Especially, since Sheev has speed-blitzed the greatest masters ever produced by the Jedi order (most of Mace's strike team) and appeared to fade in/out of existence from Anakin's perception. He also did those things after not even practicing with a lightsaber extensively in years. I also don't think there is a large gap between TPM and ROTS Sheev. Sheev has much greater speed/strength feats, he is also much more skilled. Even when in comes to force powers Sheev, even as TPM, should have better TK. If Valk manages to win it would likely come from force lightning. However, that is unlikely given that Sidious has bent Mace's lightsaber blade with lighting and disarmed Yoda with lightning. ROTS Sheev should be more powerful than TPM Sheev, likely not that much. Valk might beat TPM Sheev here, he for sure isn't beating ROTS Sheev.

Bioware is doing whatever it wants. Legends isn't canon any more remember. Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious - Page 9 1471176647

I assume Swtor is alternate reality like Star Wars Infinities is.
Legends material is allowed here. What does any of this have to do with my post?


Last edited by SnowxElf on Mon 3 Feb 2020 - 18:24; edited 1 time in total
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Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious - Page 9 Empty Re: Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious

on Mon 3 Feb 2020 - 18:19
They're mental gymnastics because reading comprehension is beyond him.


That's some nice mental gymnastics there. He wields his own power, as he is the incarnation of the dark side of the Force.

The Son is literally a wielder of the dark side, per HP's quote. Not only that, but Sidious is also described as an embodiment of the dark side in other sources, so the Son is still subject to these suspect sources.


When the evil Emperor, Supreme Master of the Dark Side of the Force, turned the fullness of his malevolence against Luke, Anakin Skywalker suddenly awoke from the curse that had imprisoned him for so long...
Source: Dark Empire Endnotes


As Luke's father once said, during the time he served the greatest known wielder of the Dark Side of the Force, the Emperor: "The ability to destroy a planet - or even a whole system - is insignificant next to the power of the Force."
Source: Dark Empire Endnotes


It quickly became clear to Luke that this decrepit and seemingly defenseless old man was masterfully adept in the ways of the Dark Side of the Force. Indeed, as Vader had warned, the Emperor had become the Dark Side's most powerful expression.
Source: Dark Empire Endnotes

So yeah, these ROTJ quotes for example would also apply to the Son, so I guess ROTJ Sidious > the Son.
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Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious - Page 9 Empty Re: Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious

on Mon 3 Feb 2020 - 18:41
@NotAA3

??? I don't even understand what your argument is here.


I posted that Sidious has accolades that state him to the most powerful in history, to which you responded that they weren't "all of history" accolades.

You then told me you knew what I meant:

NotAA3 wrote:Semantics, I meant all history up to his time, I'm perfectly aware of what you're arguing.

I'm not arguing anything, merely asking why you felt the need to say that if you knew what I meant.

None of those citations mention Sidious being the most powerful Dark Side User in all of history.


I never said they did.

You keep using "all of history", which is a very different thing to "in history".

How is it mental gymnastics? The Son, as cited, uses the Dark Side of the Force meaning he'd fall under Sidious's "most powerful Dark Sider in history" quotes if he had any. Wield means "have and be able to use" meaning the Son has the Dark Side of the Force and is able to use it meaning, by definition, he's a Dark Sider User. None of what you've posted thus far addresses that.


Since the Son is the incarnation of the dark side of the Force, he is using his own power, therefore he is not "wielding" the dark side, he is the dark side. You are getting stuck on a word.
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Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious - Page 9 Empty Re: Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious

on Mon 3 Feb 2020 - 18:48
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@BoD Let's keep this civil.
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Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious - Page 9 Empty Re: Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious

on Mon 3 Feb 2020 - 18:48
@BoD wrote:They're mental gymnastics because reading comprehension is beyond him.

Please stop with this kind of opinions in public. Keep such stuff to Discord, forums are supposed to be friendly towards everyone. If you think somebody is below the standards, best way is silent public ostracism, which is just not responding and ignoring. Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious - Page 9 1289255181
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on Mon 3 Feb 2020 - 18:52
@Corvinus

I posted that Sidious has accolades that state him to the most powerful in history, to which you responded that they weren't "all of history" accolades.

You then told me you knew what I meant:

I'm not arguing anything, merely asking why you felt the need to say that if you knew what I meant.

I literally clarified that my response was poorly worded and that what I disagree on is that Sidious was the most powerful Dark Sider up to his time (i.e. he scales above Valkorion via supremacy quotes).

I never said they did.

You keep using "all of history", which is a very different thing to "in history".

I'm aware, again when I say "all of history" I mean "all of history" up to Sidious's time (i.e. he's more powerful than any Dark Sider previously) which is in fact what you're arguing: "At least half of ROTS Sidious's accolades pertain to the dark side in its entirety, not just the Sith. Nice attempt at dodging the issue though." Though, if I apparently need to re-phrase my original statement: None of those accolades say he's a more powerful Dark Sider than Valkorion.

Since the Son is the incarnation of the dark side of the Force, he is using his own power, therefore he is not "wielding" the dark side, he is the dark side. You are getting stuck on a word.

What? I posted a quote that says he wields the Force, and the only side of the Force The Son has an affinity for is the Dark Side. Ergo, he's a Dark Side Force Wielder/Practioner/User, so he would fall under Sidious's accolades. Constantly spamming, "but he's the incarnation of the Dark Side of the Force" doesn't address this fact. Please, actually address this and I'll respond, as if you don't, I won't bother.
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Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious - Page 9 Empty Re: Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious

on Mon 3 Feb 2020 - 19:20
@Bart wrote:
@BoD wrote:They're mental gymnastics because reading comprehension is beyond him.

Please stop with this kind of opinions in public. Keep such stuff to Discord, forums are supposed to be friendly towards everyone. If you think somebody is below the standards, best way is silent public ostracism, which is just not responding and ignoring. Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious - Page 9 1289255181
Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious - Page 9 1289255181

@Corvinus Sorry, started losing my patience so I'm going to step back from this.
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Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious - Page 9 Empty Re: Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious

on Mon 3 Feb 2020 - 19:29
@NotAA3

I literally clarified that my response was poorly worded and that what I disagree on is that Sidious was the most powerful Dark Sider up to his time (i.e. he scales above Valkorion via supremacy quotes).

There are quotes but you are ignoring them or getting caught up in wording.

I'm aware, again when I say "all of history" I mean "all of history" up to Sidious's time (i.e. he's more powerful than any Dark Sider previously) which is in fact what you're arguing: "At least half of ROTS Sidious's accolades pertain to the dark side in its entirety, not just the Sith. Nice attempt at dodging the issue though." Though, if I apparently need to re-phrase my original statement: None of those accolades say he's a more powerful Dark Sider than Valkorion.

No, I don't believe any of his accolades do directly mention Valkorion.

What? I posted a quote that says he wields the Force, and the only side of the Force The Son has an affinity for is the Dark Side. Ergo, he's a Dark Side Force Wielder/Practioner/User, so he would fall under Sidious's accolades. Constantly spamming, "but he's the incarnation of the Dark Side of the Force" doesn't address this fact. Please, actually address this and I'll respond, as if you don't, I won't bother.

Yes, and I replied that you are getting stuck on the word "wield". He has and is able to use the dark side as he is the dark side. Disallowing that argument doesn't change that.

Though, say we allow that, let's be fair now: it applies to Valkorion too. Or are you saying Valkorion > The Son?
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on Mon 3 Feb 2020 - 19:45
@Corvinus Nobody's saying Valk > the Son. We're saying that all of Sidious' accolades that normally would allow him to scale above Valk are invalidated by the fact that the Son uses the dark side, and we know for a fact that Sidious isn't > or even >= or somewhere in the general realm of the Son, so those accolades are automatically unusable, therefore giving Sidious nothing to scale above Valk with.
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on Mon 3 Feb 2020 - 19:49
@IG I understand completely, but I'm asking does the same not apply for Valkorion? Are his accolades rendered unusable due to the Son's existence as well?
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on Mon 3 Feb 2020 - 19:52
Which accolade specifically? We have other sources (read: supremacy quotes) that allow us to scale Valk above all other DSers before (excluding celestials and the like), so I doubt specific accolades about it are relevant.
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on Mon 3 Feb 2020 - 19:53
@IG Why excluding Celestials and the like?
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on Mon 3 Feb 2020 - 19:55
@Corvinus I mean that the supremacy quotes his inferiors have allow him to scale above literally everybody before him but Celestials
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on Mon 3 Feb 2020 - 19:58
@IG Please elaborate.
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on Mon 3 Feb 2020 - 20:01
@Corvinus Valk scales directly from Revan, the Outlander, Vaylin, Arcann, etc, all of whom scale from KOTOR, TOTJ, and SWTOR, above literally every other being in said material, hence giving Valk access to every other TOR feat basically.
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Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious - Page 9 Empty Re: Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious

on Mon 3 Feb 2020 - 20:10
@Corvinus

There are quotes but you are ignoring them or getting caught up in wording.

Feel free to post them, and elaborate on why they scale Sidious above Valkorion.

No, I don't believe any of his accolades do directly mention Valkorion.

Obviously, they don't, I'm not asking you to procure a source that directly compares Sidious and Valkorion, I'm asking you to cite me some greatest of all time quotes that place him above Valkorion (which you've been claiming exist).

Yes, and I replied that you are getting stuck on the word "wield". He has and is able to use the dark side as he is the dark side. Disallowing that argument doesn't change that.

Though, say we allow that, let's be fair now: it applies to Valkorion too. Or are you saying Valkorion > The Son?

The underlined is a concession. If he uses the Dark Side, then he is a Dark Side practitioner/user/wielder or whatever Sidious's greatest of all time quotes say, meaning those accolades that state Sidious is the greatest are obviously contradictory, and thus invalid.

And no, I'm not arguing Valk > The Son. I'm arguing that any Sidious greatest Dark Sider quotes are contradictory to the material if they include The Son, and as a result, cannot scale Sidious above Valkorion.
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on Mon 3 Feb 2020 - 20:26
@IG

I meant please elaborate on why certain beings are excluded.

Regardless, how do TOR feats scale Valkorion above ROTS Sidious?


@NotAA3

Yeah, no. If you choose to deny sources and the Son's status this argument goes nowhere.

Shall I accept a concession on your part, seeing as that's how this seems to work?
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on Mon 3 Feb 2020 - 20:31
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@corvinus I never said it did, I said Sidious didn’t scale over Valk.
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on Mon 3 Feb 2020 - 20:38
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@Corvinus

Yeah, no. If you choose to deny sources and the Son's status this argument goes nowhere.

1. I'm not denying sources, I asked you to provide one that says Sidious is more powerful than any Dark Sider before him, and you still haven't!

2. The Son's status as not a mortal being is utterly irrelevant to the discussion at hand, he still canonically uses/wields the Dark Side, ergo he falls under Sidious's quotes.

Shall I accept a concession on your part, seeing as that's how this seems to work?

??? I accepted your concession because I asked you to prove something repeatedly and you didn't. On the other hand, in this scenario, I've addressed every claim you've presented. Let's summarise:

-Sidious is stated nowhere to be the most powerful Dark Sider in history.
-Even if he was the quote would be contradicted by The Son (who's a Dark Side User), and rendered invalid as a result.

If you can:

A) Cite me a quote that shows Sidious is the most powerful Dark Sider in history, and B) Provide evidence that The Son was not a DS wielder despite what SW.com says, I'll concede. Until then you have absolutely nothing to base your case off.
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on Wed 5 Feb 2020 - 15:25
@NotAA3

A)

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force’s light and dark sides.



B)

Darth Plagueis wrote:It had been theorized by Jedi and Sith alike that balance between the light and dark sides was actually under the guidance of a group of discorporate entities—the ones called the Celestials, perhaps—who had merged themselves with the Force thousands of generations earlier, and had continued to guide the fate of the galaxy ever since. In effect, a higher order of intermediaries, whose powers were beyond the understanding of mortal beings. 

Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse wrote:"Do you think the Ones are made of crude matter?" Thuruht replied. "The Ones are beings of the Force. The Ones take any form they desire."


The Essential Guide to Warfare Author's Cut- The Celestials wrote:We have neither reliable records nor even legends about how the Celestial dominion came to be, but it is clear that they were beings of astonishing power.


The Essential Reader's Companion wrote:As the story developed, Abeloth started to become more defined. In a parallel path, The Clone Wars animated series delved into godlike beings that were a part of the Force in the Mortis Trilogy (2011).


The Ultimate Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded wrote:Long ago, the Ones withdrew from the galaxy to avoid ruining it with their Force powers.


Databank: Father wrote:In the mysterious realm of Mortis there exists a trio of beings able to wield the Force in ways no known mortals of the galaxy can.



The Clone Wars: Overlords wrote:The Father: "My children and I can manipulate the Force like no other. Therefore, it was necessary to withdraw from the temporal world and live here as anchorites."


Anakin Skywalker: "As a sanctuary?"


The Father: "And a prison. You cannot imagine what pain it is to have such love for your children… and realize that they could tear the very fabric of our universe."

The Visual Guide: Updated and Expanded wrote:The personification of the dark side, the Son plots to kill the Father, and is held in check only by the Daughter and the Father's determination to preserve the Balance.
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Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious - Page 9 Empty Re: Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion VS. Sheev Palpatine/Darth Sidious

on Wed 5 Feb 2020 - 17:30
@Corvinus

Regarding Sidious being the most powerful Dark Sider in history: The quote from TCSWE doesn't state that he's the most powerful DS wielder in history, it can easily be referring to solely ROTS (i.e. he's more powerful than Anakin).

Regarding The Son not wielding the Dark Side: None of those quotes state The Son doesn't wield the Dark Side, all they say is that he's a being beyond mortal comprehension. We've already been over this, there's a quote from SW.com that clearly states The Ones "wield" the Force, meaning they fall under the branch of Force practitioners.
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on Wed 5 Feb 2020 - 17:37
@NotAA3

Yoda is the most powerful Jedi in history. We know this for a fact. Sidious, using the dark side, forced him to retreat. The intent of the statement is obvious, even if it doesn't say it outright.

The sources clearly state that the Son is the personification of the dark side of the Force. Constantly saying the word "wield" like it changes anything, and outright ignoring sources you asked for, is the definition of bad faith arguing.
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on Wed 5 Feb 2020 - 17:43
@Corvinus

Yoda is the most powerful Jedi in history. We know this for a fact. Sidious, using the dark side, forced him to retreat. The intent of the statement is obvious, even if it doesn't say it outright.

What? Why would entirely unrelated sources that claim Yoda is the most powerful Jedi in history (do they even exist?) be relevant to the intent of this statement. You're trying to make connections that aren't there to justify your wrong interpretation of a statement and have doused it with appeals to nebulous authorial intent. That's a concession.

The sources clearly state that the Son is the personification of the dark side of the Force. Constantly saying the word "wield" like it changes anything, and outright ignoring sources you asked for, is the definition of bad faith arguing.

I couldn't care less whether The Son is the personification of the Dark Side? This discussion is on whether he wields DS power, and he clearly does per SW.com, meaning he explicitly would fall under Sidious's accolades.
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