Suspect Insight Forums
Suspect Insight Forums
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Go down
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
Level Two

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on December 31st 2019, 7:14 pm
yo dont quote to such huge kriff lol
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on December 31st 2019, 7:21 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:yo dont quote to such huge kriff lol
<3
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on December 31st 2019, 8:55 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Lorenzo wrote:

So, first things first, i have yet to see proof that the Forge is that much more powerful than the Map, henceforth turning this

"Malak > Star Forge >>>>>>>>>> Star Map > Exiles >> Pall > Muur."


into something more like this (btw, the Exiles ARE Muur, Pall, and co, so I honestly have no idea why u put that there)

Malak > Star Forge >> Star Map > Pall > Muur.


Well, besides just common sense dictating this to us, according to Ajunta Pall, "We were not the first to fall to the dark side. But we had more power than those before us. It came from elsewhere - our oldest secret. Only we would know, we lords. Only we would know where our power came from. It is a secret of so long ago. I no longer remember. So much power, it is blinding. You must find this place, or have you? Or did you? Or will you? Oh, so many images. I see your heart, human Jedi. I see your power, your pride. You, you will find the old place, the dark place, and you will regret it."


Okay, so to disect this quote, According to Pall,  the Exiles’ power came from another source (the map). Pall describes the Map’s power as blinding, and it was what corrupted him. To contrast, Revan and Malak didn’t give a damn about the power of the Maps, and the Maps weren’t what corrupted them, nor was the Forge (which you’ve already conceded is more powerful than the Maps), it was Vitiate. The Maps were insignificant to Malak and Revan, and they only desired the Forge’s power, and they weren’t overwhelmed in the slightest by its power, Malak was able to ramp the Forge up to 300% of its normal capabilities too, meaning that Malak is vastly more powerful than the Maps in general. Therefore, we can conclude that Malak >> SF >>>>>>>> Star Maps >> The Exiles >> Pall > Muur. 


I know that the Exiles are Muur, Pall and co, I was referring to the Exiles collectively. It’s pretty evident that Pall, Muur, Xoxaan, Dreypa, Syn, etc together are >> Pall individually. 






Now, ill address the Muur/Vader fight. 

See, Celeste Morne is not some random Jedi Knight. Im sure u aware of Vader's attack on 8 Jedi masters, correct? Its a well known feat. Interestingly enough, Vader somewhat easily killed 4 or 5 of them, and yet, Celeste by herself seemed to give Vader more trouble than said 4 or 5. She may very well be the equivalent of 4 Jedi Master, if I got by this. Secondly, we have Muur aiding her by his powers to hers. Not only is he just as powerful as her, he very likely stronger than her, so by adding their powers, Celeste couldve easily doubled her powers. Last but not least, she would have needed to give in to the dark side, which can yet again, easily double someone's powers. THAT is the needed power to stop Vader. Celeste would've needed to quadruple her powers to actually stop Vader. That is about 16 to 20 Jedi Masters put together to stop Vader, if i were to wank this. To kill this off, is Muur's word supposed to trusted blindly now? He is famous for being a deceiver and manipulator. Him telling Celeste that they could beat Vader by becoming one instantly makes me think of Sidious telling Anakin that he can help Anakin keep his loved ones alive, maybe forever.


Celeste Morne is described as an “average” knight per Jan Duursema, who wrote Vector. Karness Muur was at the battle of Corbos, where he is said to have slain a number of Jedi. SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 FlV0EC8XjaRnA7APLYpp1GzYHioD_bvzP5KCljfORHmT10lkdb5Le8oUidZaOoz53weJdG23JM-uSDy3vmDLjwS1Cd7V-EmXClnms7WokKtsTfRJXN0oCSGijiAg1enz7UCbgHM_


So therefore, Muur >>> Multiple Knights >>> One Knight ~ Celeste.




SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 E4262ae8-006f-4b77-95e2-b7281f2b3298






I am positively sure that you know that Krayt was not dying during that fight, but he was also diverting his powers to keep himself for longer. He quite literally fought and beat Krayt as Krayt's worst state. And I have yet to see any possible parity between Obi Wan and Hett, when we have Kenobi decisively beating him in both the story, and the comic. And iirc, in the comic, he beats him even more easily. As for Obi Wan, old and new, we have Vader state that some of his skill is there, and since the fight is in fact a duel, it was nothing more than a mentally hindered and unstable Darth Vader (i doubt i need to address, but if you need me to do so, i can find quotes for things) who was somehow afraid of being hit, and felt that Kenobi could killed him as easily as before, even though both him and Obi Wan knew that he is not the Obi Wan he used to be. We actually know that Vader has been 'disturbed' by Obi Wan's presence before, when he met Proxy who was using his Obi Wan module. Not only that, but Obi Wan was being pushed back the whole, and couldnt even counter attack.






I was wanking Muur throwing Krayt off of a cliff, but Karness Muur fights Darth Krayt, where he negates Krayt’s lightsaber assault with no apparent difficulty. Most of the engagement occurs off-panel, but when it ends three pages later after Celeste finally wrests control back from Muur, nobody is at an advantage (but Krayt goes from being on the offensive to the defensive), indicating that Muur and Krayt were at least evenly matched. This is despite the fact that Muur hadn’t used a saber for 7000 years, using an unfamiliar lightsaber, and having to control the rakghouls and mentally contend with Celeste for control of her body, all at once. 


SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 B6GjK_31AxmlmEJFzoA_ubAo8yZ2x2O6xpH26ZlXxmeZ6dbIMX98ZEF0P1WrEVE0UgRmlwc2LITZ0Phx_nCfDkn4K6a7X2NPuQdHTQ-IMYOU-ytkjhXGYXm11XbxixFZqXDO-p41
SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 O4ydMF0PoSaOy7eJDq9h6gqQr0owwssZrFRLrv0PwM__i7fDgOigWhy4US9tC0WMN-h1LCCTRYgDVlxrl3i4OKeUJRUd4VcNWAUzvws5xHtYixS1fTcxFcf9cR03Dkybr0f_93cF SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 A8SU8A1yPFwlrmqfTN8O3ENRuZthSDinaoDFI3UbNynqGWkf6lMtSflQdeNLH03pjCplaIKiQDBgYe9yxp8usCRx3rxLJ9RbYruGFbKABy3O0_ZoXTxXxh7WFi_rHKiJEhdK5pOV SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 LnYsIcgpzd7cP_osgwXgZSdO1CpKDVQD_mYq4g5sKavQP2iic8RO1T3R--pX9B-OS94MnnAfEOacZ5J6h_4JsstNuz98nUQx_4VgY8nUv-4TJHuTGLNy_v5K0ojpy5GCzaSNcyNf
Sorry for the blurry images. 


Obi Wan fought Hett, but by no means did he win in a stomp. Kenobi is pressed by Hett at the very least, to the point where Hett is able to land several blows (a kick, and a hit with the butt of the saber). SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 MwpK9KXRWs4mqKPY3COv08g7JpkVjpCScz7H7jfyC3tyskbyYtRJJ2K5uzCsuSE1g8M7YA6h8rUjzBflPZfNTqYhw_vws3RfYgraLRk25fq-G3dVI-m4i0LSp54PrM4zrqm8AQoN SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 OAkeGIb6vLQjD9UT8t9myLEI4jnLOygXq80_W8dkGKnvg9OkmlE7fTCzyHCvX4wi9EmGrT3modERBgQmJ18c1QBzhS1lxR_SoZs7aUatcNkwvNOjy5lSWtVFhbNq9kQnklzwygpu
SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 6582b76b-1f34-433e-89b9-28e1c51e09feSS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 0fb93ece-c46c-4488-a597-f62bcba36776SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 C7fbdb48-a78a-41dc-a7e2-18d2e64d2255SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 3ef1ed1d-2446-4a94-83fd-85f5e90e1fe7SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 B7993e5a-bb1a-48a6-a8b2-e0885fe51a34SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 B0cc0996-c67e-45a1-8de1-5726cef49484


Now for my rebuttals to your earlier points about a hindered Vader. They’re completely unfounded. For one, multiple sources disagree with your analysis














During the fateful duel with Darth Vader aboard the Death Star, the tall and powerful Sith Lord cannot break Obi-Wan's defenses until Kenobi voluntarily yields.






Meaning that Kenobi is able to defend himself and he throws the fight with Vader, not that Vader is superior in any sort of way. As of the sources that claim Vader was hindered, I’d like to see some, because believing Kenobi can kill him isn't a hindrance. 














My turn now. Thankfully, you already had me talk about Muur, Vader, and Celeste before, so Ill just add on to it from now on. 

So, back then I showed you that Celeste x4 (or more) is equal to, or possibly stronger than Vader (which is already iffy from the get go). You said that i needed to prove that Vader grew massively in power to actually reach Malak? That's what Ill do then. I made a blog talking about his power growth before, so im sorry if it seems like im taking points from there, because, well, I am. 

So we have 19 BBY Vader being equal to Muur plus a Dark Side amped Celeste Morne, which should already mean that Vader is likely stronger than Muur. 18 BBY Vader is stronger than that. 18 BBY Vader, after he killed Roan Shryne, is now even more powerful, feeling the real power of the Dark Side now like never before, making me think that this amp is bigger than when Anakin gave in to the Dark Side for the first time. 

More important, Vader's bloodlust had been appeased; replaced by self-possession of a sort he had never before experienced. It was as if he had crossed some invisible threshold to a new world. He could feel the power of the dark side surging through him like an icy torrent. He felt invulnerable in a way that had nothing to do with his durasteel prostheses, his suit of armor and gadgets, which now seemed little more than an outfit. And it had taken a Jedi–yet another Jedi–to usher him over that threshold.
--
Sidious was pleased. Vader had done well. He had sensed the change in him, even in the brief conversation they had had following the events on Kashyyyk. Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship could begin. The Jedi were incidental to him. He was covetous of the power Sidious wielded, and believed that one day they would be equals. - Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader



Then we go to The Force Unleashed Dark Vader, which is 18 years of power growth for Vader. Thankfully for me, Vader has a quote in which he states that his powers grow momentarily. I wont wank this too hard, but it does mean that 18 years can make a HUGE difference in power between TFU Vader and 18 BBY Vader.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5833843-dw8.jpg  < bottom of the page. Sorry that it looks so horrible btw lol


Then we have TFU 2 Vader, in which he has now grown quite a good deal yet again, enough to be likely a good deal stronger than Starkiller, or least his match, who was already more powerful than Galen Marek ever was.

Next we have A New Hope Vader, who is even stronger than before, albeit, i doubt it to be a significant power growth. I decided to mention simply because i have to win this lol

Now we have The Empire Strikes Back Vader, in which he grew to be far more formidable than before, meaning a clearly significant growth in power.

Within the armoed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star. - Insider #62

When the Death Star exploded, it was believed that Vader had been lost to the void. But he returned, more powerful than before, and was given command of the fleet assigned to track down Skywalker and the Rebel fleet. - Galaxy Guide 1: A New Hope

The more powerful figures may often be defeated but not slain. They may flee, like Darth Vader after the destruction of the Death Star, to return more powerful on another day. - Gamer 5

After a single with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers. - https://www.writeurl.com/text/hvzw6ml3qvx978tdu09u/9dvm40pxnuot23wxuvna


At the end we have Return Of The Jedi, in which Vader is now at his peak, stronger than ever.

His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. - Return Of The Jedi

More powerful in the Force than ever before as well as a master of the lightsaber, Darth Vader prepares for his final battle as the Rebel fleet hammers the fully operational Death Star. - Darth Vader Return Of Anakin Skywalker

Darth Vader presses forward... strong, skillful, sure! Exhibiting more deadly invincibility than ever! - Return of the Jedi Comic




Okay, I never disputed the fact that Vader grew tremendously, but he was stomped by Muur in 18 BBY, meaning that he is extremely inferior, to the point where he believes that if he used Muur’s power, he would only be trading Sidious for Muur. 




Also, Dark Lord: Rise of Darth Vader takes place immediately after ROTS, it doesn’t happen in 18 BBY (a year after ROTS). Vector happens after this. 




The idea that Vader gets an amp relative to that of Zonakin is utterly ludicrous, Vader doesn’t jump that much, you’d have to prove it, not speculate. 














Now we have:

ROTJ Vader > ESB Vader >> ANH Vader > TFU 2 Vader >> TFU 1 Vader >>>> 18 BBY (post killing Roan) >> 18 BBY (pre killing Roan) > 19 BBY = Muur + Dark Side Celeste

I used 13 of these > up there, amount up to this:

ROTJ Vader >>>>>>>>>>>>> Muur + Dark Side Celeste


While you have this:

Malak > Star Forge >> Star Maps > Pall > Muur + Dark Side Amped Celeste 


You have 5 of these up there, which amounts to:

Malak >>>>> Muur + Dark Side Celeste.



Seems to me that I win this round.




Well, actually, we have:




Malak >> SF >>>>>>> Star Map > Exiles >> Pall > Muur >= Krayt >>>>> Hett < Kenobi >>>> Ben ~ ANH Vader < ESB Vader < ROTJ Vader. 




You also never refuted the Kun scaling, which gives Malak access to feats Vader cannot replicate. 




@lorenzo.r.2nd: Your turn
@AlexSerp
@xolthol


@Gueliston


Last edited by IG (Exists) on January 1st 2020, 9:37 am; edited 1 time in total
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on December 31st 2019, 10:07 pm
You don't need to quote his post(s) every time you want to tell him something lmao.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on December 31st 2019, 10:10 pm
for me its far easy tbh
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
Level Two
Level Two

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on December 31st 2019, 10:44 pm
....interesting posts you 2. Yeah...interesting, that's the word I'd use to describe this.
avatar
BoD (Away)
Level Six
Level Six

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on December 31st 2019, 11:08 pm
@KingofBlades I had the exact same reaction.
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on December 31st 2019, 11:15 pm
Debating from mobile screws formatting lmao.
Gueliston
Gueliston

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on January 1st 2020, 12:19 am
Nice posts from both parties.
Vader's Legacy
Vader's Legacy
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on January 1st 2020, 12:32 am
Unreadable and I can't spend the time trying to decrypt it. Im sure its wonderful but I suggest reformating
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on January 1st 2020, 12:39 am
For me this debate is already in a tie 

1vs1
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
Level Two

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on January 1st 2020, 12:40 am
So first things first, you seem to assume that Pall, before he became a dark sider and who said its power was blinding, is equal to Sith Lord Pall, who killed the strongest sith on the planet at one point, BEFORE his prime, who was skilled enough to make some stuff during his lifetime that not even Sidious could replicate. His name was Graush i believe. Now, that's where the obvious part of my argument comes in. If Pall grew in power so damn much simply by using the Star Maps, then so would Muur. Current Muur =/= jedi Muur who was mega impressed with the Star Maps, so there is no way that Malak scales that far above him. Malak is indeed far above noobie Exiles, but he is by no means far above the same Ajunta Pall who Vitiate considered a possible threat, whom Bastilla was extremely wary of, etc. Ps and yes, that makes sense. I wasnt sure if u didnt know about it, since it is not technically a well known piece of info, so i just reiterating was a good.. idea.




Average Jedi were easily killed by clone troopers, and were fodderized by Vader. She falls into none of those two things, and she gave Vader some effort. She is clearly not average. Not even close. As for Muur slaying a number of jedi, 19 BBY Vader did that every Saturday, per se. Is that supposed to be impressive or a counter point to something else?




In sad fight, Muur had the clear, obvious, easy advantage, and an argument could be made that he could have even been sort of playing with Krayt. He did after all want his body, i believe. Playing mind tricks is his game after all. Considering the fact that u did seem to have addressed the fact of Krayt being half dead, and half powered to live longer, ill assume that you already knew about this. Yet again 




Half Dead, half powered Vong Krayt < Dark Side Celeste + Muur > Muur prime >> Muur with Star Map (first time) >>> Jedi Muur who was impressed at the Star Map << Noob Exiles << Star Forger Malak. 




I could make a case here that Muur was stronger than Malak, to be honest. 




Something important to note here, i do not believe that skill with sabers = strength in the force. We have seen less powerful people beat stronger foes by using sheer skill many times before. Im just mentioning this in case u try to make use of this too heavily, or too often.




Now that that is over with, Hett hitting Kenobi =/= Hett being equal to Obi Wan in power, at all. Im sorry, but Kenobi has been hit by about every single of his opponents shown in source of media ever, and yet, he still seemed to always have been more powerful than them, often times by a good margin too. Secondly, in the scans you showed, once Obi Wan decides to end the fight, he ends it quite quickly, and EASILY cuts off Hett's arm (i believe he blows it up using the force in the comic, separating it from Hett's body, but could be wrong, while in the other, he uses his lightsaber to cut it off). Kenobi is clearly the superior, well, everything in that fight, no matter how you look at it.




So, by multiple sources, you mean one, and by disagree, you mean it doenst either? Cuz thats how it seems to me. My points were:




Vader was mentally unstable, and had an unfounded fear for Obi Wan, even though he was above Obi Wan in all relevant categories in said fight, including power and skill




Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, has instilled terror throughout the galaxy since the beginning of the Empire. His devotion to the Emperor and mastery of the dark side gives him more power than any single individual in the galaxy except for the Emperor himself. - http://www.rebelscum.com/soteKxizor-vader.asp

In his distinctive black armor, Vader is an imposing figure. In the entire galaxy, he is second in power only to the Emperor himself. - Insider 65

At the beginning of A New Hope, Darth Vader is so powerful in the Dark Side that he is second in command of the entire galaxy! - Adventures Magazine 4

(^^^ His military might/influence grew alongside his power growth, hence why this is important for me to mention) 

Darth Vader, the Dark Lord of the Sith's apprentice, one of the two most powerful beings in the galaxy, was afraid. - Death Star


Darth Vader is the embodiment of all evil. Under the guidance of Emperor Palpatine-aka Darth Sidious- Lord Vader controls the Galactic Empire with an iron fist. He's an unparalleled lightsaber combatant and an even more capable Force wielder. -Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide





No one was a match for the lightsaber skills of the dark lord of the Sith. -Star Wars Galaxies Trading Card Game: The Shadow Syndicate




That would instantly make him more skilled than Obi Wan, as well as more powerful. Actually, Vader being far above Sedriss, who was a Dooku+ force user, supports this as well.


Perhaps the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader, Executor Sedriss remained loyal to the Emperor after the death of his clone over the Rebel's Pinnacle Base. -Handbook #3: Dark Empire





As leader of my Dark Side Adepts, Military Executor Sedriss has been the most loyal, and is commended for reviving me here on Byss. But for all his usefulness, Sedriss is only a moderate Force-sensitive, a capable errand boy but hardly the stuff of a Sith apprentice. - Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force





Him being =< ROTJ Dark side Luke also supports this, who in base, was already stronger than prime Obi Wan ever was.


A warrior needed to contend with equals. Obi-Wan was gone, and the other Jedi were all extinct, save one, who was the strongest of them all. His own son. He had told the Emperor that Luke Skywalker would join them or die. The real truth was only slightly different: Luke would join Darth Vader or die. It would be something to look forward to. That would be the duel of a lifetime. This wasn’t even exercise.  Shadows of the Empire 





Obi wan defending himself means absolutely nothing either. We have already seen how Vader reacts to Obi Wan before too. He clearly figured out that this wasnt the real Obi Wan by using basic force sense, but it goes to show that just his face is already enough to kark up Vader. Proxy here is easily just as skilled, if not more skilled than Old Obi Wan, and once Vader gets mad at his face, he stomps Proxy very thoroughly. This goes to show how a pissed off Vader wouldve fought Old Ben Kenobi.




As though from a position high above, he watched his Master spin around to face Obi-Wan Kenobi.
The Dark Lord froze. In that moment of hesitation the long-dead Jedi Master attacked, his face a mask of determination. At the very last moment Vader parried, then parried again. He took a step backward, toward the cliff’s edge, and then rallied. With two sweeping strokes, so fast they blurred in the cold air, he disarmed Kenobi and slashed him in half. -The Force Unleashed







I somehow cannot find a single one of the quotes i previously used on other threads when talking about the Obi Wan, but ill make sure to post them once i do find them. Ill promise you that much.


Now that i am done with that... 


You say here that Vader is far weaker than Muur and that Muur stomped him, but this is based on nothing. Secondly, Vector (dark times) takes place only 3 months after Palps declares his new Order, while he was the senate, and not the emperor (see what i did there). Aka 19 BBY, less than 3 months after Mustafar. And the novel (Rise of Darth Vader) starts in 19 BBY, right before Order 66, and ends in 18 BBY, at Roan's death. Look it up. 


And i never said that the amp is the same, or greater than the amp that Zonakin got. I said that it was enough of a power up to have been proportionally greater than Vader, or Anakin had ever gotten before. And why is it ludicrous for Vader to have gotten an amp with similar power behind it?


More like we have:


Malak > SF >> Star Map > Exiles > Noob Pall > Noob Muur >= Dying, half powered Krayt ? Hett << Kenobi >>>> Ben <<<< Prime Kenobi ~ Dooku < Sedriss <<< ANH Vader << ESB Vader < ROTJ Vader. 





As for the Exar Kun thing, im sorry to say, but none of his feats (aside from what, mind controlling a bunch of fodder, normal humans, not even instantly btw, while wearing a gauntlet that incredibly amps one's power) compare to Vader's own. Him pulling away information from ROTJ's Luke mind that easily, while not even trying, WHILE Luke fought against is just so much better than what Kun did too, in my opinion, that i simply decided to ignore it for now, unless it does in fact become a threat later on. Lets say im pulling a Sheev here, watching its career with great interest, but only affecting things from the shadows.
Vader's Legacy
Vader's Legacy
Level Three
Level Three

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on January 1st 2020, 12:42 am
The formatting continues, why did the text go from ahsoka to rancor sized at the end?
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on January 1st 2020, 12:48 am
Lorenzo pretty much detailed everything with sources and about common misconceptions regarding vader excellent post
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on January 1st 2020, 1:10 am
Also to clarify i consider Vader to be inferior besides the forcé entities to valk,sheev,yoda,Luke,caedus,unuthul,nyax and vol


Last edited by The lord of hunger on January 18th 2020, 3:37 pm; edited 11 times in total
Gueliston
Gueliston

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on January 1st 2020, 2:02 am
As a combatant, I consider all of the people you mentioned above Vader. Add in a few other folks as well. Whether Malak will be part of those “folks” depends on who wins this debate in my POV.
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on January 1st 2020, 3:43 am
This debate is interresting but the formating is awfull
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on January 1st 2020, 11:25 am
Lorenzo wrote:So first things first, you seem to assume that Pall, before he became a dark sider and who said its power was blinding, is equal to Sith Lord Pall, who killed the strongest sith on the planet at one point, BEFORE his prime, who was skilled enough to make some stuff during his lifetime that not even Sidious could replicate. His name was Graush i believe. Now, that's where the obvious part of my argument comes in. If Pall grew in power so damn much simply by using the Star Maps, then so would Muur. Current Muur =/= jedi Muur who was mega impressed with the Star Maps, so there is no way that Malak scales that far above him. Malak is indeed far above noobie Exiles, but he is by no means far above the same Ajunta Pall who Vitiate considered a possible threat, whom Bastilla was extremely wary of, etc. Ps and yes, that makes sense. I wasnt sure if u didnt know about it, since it is not technically a well known piece of info, so i just reiterating was a good.. idea.



Okay, so you’ve just demonstrated to me your utter lack of knowledge of the lore entirely, congratulations. The Pall referring to the Map’s power as “blinding” is Spirit Ajunta Pall, 3000 years after his death, speaking to Revan. Vitiate considered him a possible threat, meaning that he was unsure as to how powerful Muur was, and therefore didn’t want to take him lightly. Sidious considered Ventress a threat, she’s evidently fodder to him.



You know what else contradicts this? Kun scaling. Malak >> Kun > all that came before him, as Kun is stated to be greater than all that preceded him.  


Therefore, you’re utterly incorrect, and Malak >> SF >>>>>>>> Star Map > Exiles >> Pall > Muur still stands.



Furthermore, Kreia in KOTOR 2 claims that the Ancients are more powerful than a force such as Darth Nihilus, an extremely impressive accolade, and one later confirmed by Chris Avellone himself.



Kreia wrote:"It is a technique that has been lost for some time. Not seen in the days since the ancient Sith. They can use it to consume other force sensitives... The blind seer, her master harnessed this technique and he is rapidly approaching the height of its power. I fear he may even rival some of the ancient Sith."


Chris Avellone wrote:"Kreia is setting the stage for what we imagined KOTOR3 to be, and as we had a sense for the power that we wanted those Sith Lords to reveal, her predictions are accurate. And yes, she had a number of Sith holocrons that she had read (the ones on Telos)."





According to Traya, Nihilus is far more powerful than her:


Kreia wrote:“One cannot have power of that magnitude and still think and perceive the universe as we do."



Thus stating Malak >> Kun > Ragnos > Cinnigar Kun >> Nadd >> Sadow > Kressh > Nihilus >>> Traya 







lorenzo wrote:Average Jedi were easily killed by clone troopers, and were fodderized by Vader. She falls into none of those two things, and she gave Vader some effort. She is clearly not average. Not even close. As for Muur slaying a number of jedi, 19 BBY Vader did that every Saturday, per se. Is that supposed to be impressive or a counter point to something else?



Celeste was said to be an average knight for her time. Meaning that an average TOR Knight is above an average PT knight. Which makes sense because TOR Knights had to fight opponents that wielded the force and were extremely powerful in general. I used Muur killing a bunch of Jedi to scale him above Celeste, something you would’ve realized had you read the text in question. Therefore, Muur >>>>>> Celeste. 


SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Zr145t0KeF6uHEo6A2ADqKWtgsNA29-sxIN0pr5Xu6AkjKJOvdTsZi5ifU6aQvrH8yzyJSnMvgzACuvzmSaP6CLwNHf_GPVbl0hFDkJW81PxN_zijnlT54MRixg-vwHz8N1WoqCg
SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 FHDccM5XNe_Ncw5U28GERvsseQVZphnhy_yqvWIlynhm1evnOE8VfjelDMm52kf4u5XLAYGvo1Cb2Z6tWX_kkqvqi2zxLVasH6jdBqP6nAKo8lOtqbXuvKKhiMSJB6wyj0FRGeSV
SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 EzLd1TNY0tYo1XcwfjOFoLPW_3fUAK9rTyOSORkhsumaY_HKNFcddQl_C4RPvuET-baVsMg1z5L1rvwv_AkoAso5e9uw8CKMaustF7EnWt7CqlySGplRFltrbXGvPNtBRCoUieT4


The above quotes support my point even further, one explicitly stating that KOTOR is the era where the Jedi are in their prime, moreso than even during the Clone Wars. Note that this doesn’t mean KOTOR High Tiers > PT High tiers, only that the average KOTOR Knight (ie Celeste) > the average PT Knight.



lorenzo wrote:In sad fight, Muur had the clear, obvious, easy advantage, and an argument could be made that he could have even been sort of playing with Krayt. He did after all want his body, i believe. Playing mind tricks is his game after all. Considering the fact that u did seem to have addressed the fact of Krayt being half dead, and half powered to live longer, ill assume that you already knew about this. Yet again 



Thank you… for proving my point. I’ve been saying that Muur is evidently above Krayt at this point. Furthermore, Krayt being weakened doesn’t make him weaker than his A’Sharad Hett iteration, as he had tapped into the dark side fully, and had learned under XoXaan, and then was able to grow for 100 years after this. 
So Malak >> SF >>>>>>>> Star Map > Exiles >> Pall > Muur > or >> Vong Krayt >>> Hett < Kenobi still stands. 



lorenzo wrote:Half Dead, half powered Vong Krayt < Dark Side Celeste + Muur > Muur prime >> Muur with Star Map (first time) >>> Jedi Muur who was impressed at the Star Map << Noob Exiles << Star Forger Malak.

 
I could make a case here that Muur was stronger than Malak, to be honest. 

Something important to note here, i do not believe that skill with sabers = strength in the force. We have seen less powerful people beat stronger foes by using sheer skill many times before. Im just mentioning this in case u try to make use of this too heavily, or too often.




Now that that is over with, Hett hitting Kenobi =/= Hett being equal to Obi Wan in power, at all. Im sorry, but Kenobi has been hit by about every single of his opponents shown in source of media ever, and yet, he still seemed to always have been more powerful than them, often times by a good margin too. Secondly, in the scans you showed, once Obi Wan decides to end the fight, he ends it quite quickly, and EASILY cuts off Hett's arm (i believe he blows it up using the force in the comic, separating it from Hett's body, but could be wrong, while in the other, he uses his lightsaber to cut it off). Kenobi is clearly the superior, well, everything in that fight, no matter how you look at it.



So, first two things are wrong, scroll up. 


Duelling often involves both skill with a saber and raw power in the force (often channeled through augmentation), hence how Anakin in ROTS is able to stomp Dooku, despite Dooku likely having an advantage in technical skill.


I’m not arguing that Hett is Obi Wan’s equal, I’m arguing that he’s able to give Kenobi a good fight. Kenobi does win the fight, but calling it a stomp or a decisive victory is completely incorrect. Furthermore, Kenobi was amped by his need to protect Luke, therefore Hett < Kenobi is completely reasonable.


Thus, Malak >> SF >>>>>>>>> Star Map >> Exiles >> Pall > Muur > Vong Krayt >>>> Hett < Kenobi still stands.



lorenzo wrote:So, by multiple sources, you mean one, and by disagree, you mean it doenst either? Cuz thats how it seems to me. My points were:





Vader was mentally unstable, and had an unfounded fear for Obi Wan, even though he was above Obi Wan in all relevant categories in said fight, including power and skill


Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, has instilled terror throughout the galaxy since the beginning of the Empire. His devotion to the Emperor and mastery of the dark side gives him more power than any single individual in the galaxy except for the Emperor himself. - http://www.rebelscum.com/soteKxizor-vader.asp


In his distinctive black armor, Vader is an imposing figure. In the entire galaxy, he is second in power only to the Emperor himself. - Insider 65


At the beginning of A New Hope, Darth Vader is so powerful in the Dark Side that he is second in command of the entire galaxy! - Adventures Magazine 4


(^^^ His military might/influence grew alongside his power growth, hence why this is important for me to mention) 


Darth Vader, the Dark Lord of the Sith's apprentice, one of the two most powerful beings in the galaxy, was afraid. - Death Star



Darth Vader is the embodiment of all evil. Under the guidance of Emperor Palpatine-aka Darth Sidious- Lord Vader controls the Galactic Empire with an iron fist. He's an unparalleled lightsaber combatant and an even more capable Force wielder. -Star Wars: The Force Unleashed II: Prima Official Game Guide






No one was a match for the lightsaber skills of the dark lord of the Sith. -Star Wars Galaxies Trading Card Game: The Shadow Syndicate





That would instantly make him more skilled than Obi Wan, as well as more powerful. Actually, Vader being far above Sedriss, who was a Dooku+ force user, supports this as well.



Perhaps the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader, Executor Sedriss remained loyal to the Emperor after the death of his clone over the Rebel's Pinnacle Base. -Handbook #3: Dark Empire






As leader of my Dark Side Adepts, Military Executor Sedriss has been the most loyal, and is commended for reviving me here on Byss. But for all his usefulness, Sedriss is only a moderate Force-sensitive, a capable errand boy but hardly the stuff of a Sith apprentice. - Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide To The Force






Him being =< ROTJ Dark side Luke also supports this, who in base, was already stronger than prime Obi Wan ever was.



A warrior needed to contend with equals. Obi-Wan was gone, and the other Jedi were all extinct, save one, who was the strongest of them all. His own son. He had told the Emperor that Luke Skywalker would join them or die. The real truth was only slightly different: Luke would join Darth Vader or die. It would be something to look forward to. That would be the duel of a lifetime. This wasn’t even exercise.  Shadows of the Empire 




 You have little to no evidence that Vader is significantly hindered, and according to Leland Chee himself, Kenobi is more powerful than Vader as of ANH.


SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 HDHfLzvZbti-sbXGO2ngrvDUbKdFTxdsLtqDNDqip7q8QnDLhAp8fNj8iDVyuhRfqXUb8JYzHfdlDNTnU1LBAm3b55V2w9wx4T0dFUBUV3gJV9DHR3iqqtsdnnhTh1pCsgeSVz_g



When he says “lost” in quotes, he’s referring to the fact that Kenobi lets Vader win, meaning that Kenobi > Vader is factual. This quote invalidates all of your sources that imply Vader > Kenobi.
Vader is utterly stomped by Rage!Luke in ROTJ lmao. 


Another quote that utterly invalidates your argument is,


According to Lucas, “Obi Wan was probably more powerful than Darth Vader”, which means that even if Obi Wan isn’t stronger (given the “probably”), they’re still extremely close. Couple this with Chee’s quote and we have a definitive Ben > Vader as opposed to Vader > Ben. Lucas also has said that Obi Wan is a “6” and that Vader is a “4”, so that itself puts Ben > Vader. 


So we have the manager of continuity (Chee) and Lucas himself both outright saying that ANH Kenobi > Vader. 




lorenzo wrote:Obi wan defending himself means absolutely nothing either. We have already seen how Vader reacts to Obi Wan before too. He clearly figured out that this wasnt the real Obi Wan by using basic force sense, but it goes to show that just his face is already enough to kark up Vader. Proxy here is easily just as skilled, if not more skilled than Old Obi Wan, and once Vader gets mad at his face, he stomps Proxy very thoroughly. This goes to show how a pissed off Vader wouldve fought Old Ben Kenobi.





As though from a position high above, he watched his Master spin around to face Obi-Wan Kenobi.
The Dark Lord froze. In that moment of hesitation the long-dead Jedi Master attacked, his face a mask of determination. At the very last moment Vader parried, then parried again. He took a step backward, toward the cliff’s edge, and then rallied. With two sweeping strokes, so fast they blurred in the cold air, he disarmed Kenobi and slashed him in half. -The Force Unleashed







I somehow cannot find a single one of the quotes i previously used on other threads when talking about the Obi Wan, but ill make sure to post them once i do find them. Ill promise you that much.



Now that i am done with that... 



You say here that Vader is far weaker than Muur and that Muur stomped him, but this is based on nothing. Secondly, Vector (dark times) takes place only 3 months after Palps declares his new Order, while he was the senate, and not the emperor (see what i did there). Aka 19 BBY, less than 3 months after Mustafar. And the novel (Rise of Darth Vader) starts in 19 BBY, right before Order 66, and ends in 18 BBY, at Roan's death. Look it up. 



And i never said that the amp is the same, or greater than the amp that Zonakin got. I said that it was enough of a power up to have been proportionally greater than Vader, or Anakin had ever gotten before. And why is it ludicrous for Vader to have gotten an amp with similar power behind it?




Well, the burden of evidence is on you to prove that Shryne died in 18 BBY. You’re the one who made the claim, and the New Essential Chronology seems to imply that it takes place in 19 BBY. Thus, Muur >> Post Shryne boost Vader. 


Well, the Chee and Lucas thing already debunked your claims, but are you seriously telling me that you think a droid is more powerful than an actual Jedi Master? 


And the gap between tier 8 and 9 is said to be “massive”, not unsimilar to the gap between Obi Wan and Yoda. Anakin in ROTS jumps from an 8 to 9, so proportionally, it still wouldn’t work out. 



lorenzo wrote:More like we have:



Malak > SF >> Star Map > Exiles > Noob Pall > Noob Muur >= Dying, half powered Krayt ? Hett << Kenobi >>>> Ben <<<< Prime Kenobi ~ Dooku < Sedriss <<< ANH Vader << ESB Vader < ROTJ Vader. 



This has all been debunked, scroll up. Our concluding chain is rather:


Malak > SF >>>>>> Star Map > Exiles >> Pall > Muur > or >> Vong Krayt >>>> Hett < Kenobi >>>> Ben > ANH Vader <=  ESB Vader < ROTJ Vader. 




SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 JJM5Zf_LiefvT8TewcbU2eGEEdsRSeFhay7q-QXq2yF1YyUc4OSfwdm_gEUhsMQeG3r11bFoeX-mLiGKsDap9V2CeSXa8-8CDNfOFVQQjIn9bf76unFrUP1VpJvLQmHvEBOmY8hM
SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 JzhogIj37rbkDbuuQuv7C952qgU1-PwHyXHljIxu5rrcP7IqloxaVMlRBBI3aR8q2MGzR8_hQI1RK5z7zvvF3iPcNEicowf5un7bZRMZsDIgIVkpPJEs1iTel76Lbn2lE7g2xWiP
SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 OnEacbWks-DlHQDwe4KdLLUJcbXqDUGrT4vpIBfObtcBiHEnUPXCNJmylkZRjZwOWwXteIfR2Em_EidvWgzwzRD95JP0lm3qgvNfQxlWQA4kqhXE3wqn2brfnN-T4nsdCCfqaydq
SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 6O4pXfnxdXww35iKxlOA-yZ-S0MV8XXFC-JNrBRpjQqb-9-05R3LogpbqG7ZTfLi8pEp8Qh1rYwOi48wvYSREAVfX_M0iKkRns2I-VBqxmUM27qbVoVa7d0pP4GJNsWUOitiD2fo



We have the title of the comic Resurrection claiming that it is the “Duel to settle it all”, “it” referring to who is more powerful, Maul or Vader. According to Chee, the comic was also meant to showcase what would happen in a duel, and since the Maul used in said issue is TPM Maul, we can determine that TPM Maul <= Vader.


In said comic, Vader ultimately wins the fight, but only does this through a cheapshot, where Maul is about to kill him, and Vader summons his saber from behind Maul to kill him.


Therefore, TPM Maul <= Vader.


Next, we have how Malak scales from that.


So, since we already know that Malak > SF >>>>>>> Star Map > Exiles >> Pall > Muur > or >> Vong Krayt >>>> Hett < Kenobi, we can connect this to TPM Maul by showing that Kenobi >>> TPM Maul (which is true). We know that Kenobi manages to nearly defeat Savage and Maul while pre prime in TCW S5, so Kenobi > or >> TCW S6 Kenobi > S5 Kenobi < Savage + Maul >> Maul >>> TPM Maul <= Vader. 



lorenzo wrote:As for the Exar Kun thing, im sorry to say, but none of his feats (aside from what, mind controlling a bunch of fodder, normal humans, not even instantly btw, while wearing a gauntlet that incredibly amps one's power) compare to Vader's own. Him pulling away information from ROTJ's Luke mind that easily, while not even trying, WHILE Luke fought against is just so much better than what Kun did too, in my opinion, that i simply decided to ignore it for now, unless it does in fact become a threat later on. Lets say im pulling a God here, watching its career with great interest, but only affecting things from the shadows.



Okay, so almost all of this is incorrect from the very beginning. For one, Kun managed to telepathically dominate the entire goddamn senate. A senate that appears to be made of thousands of beings. “Fodder” beings doesn’t really matter here. There’s no evidence whatsoever that says that the gauntlets “amp” Kun, if there is, you’d have to supply it. 


In fact, Vader being weak comparative to TP feats is evident in this quote,



Darth Vader, Star Wars Jedi vs. Sith - The Essential Guide to the Force wrote:"These creatures have become such an irritation that every time I see one I want to strike it down with my lightsaber. Be that as it may, I interviewed a Toydarian subject who showed a great amount of resistance to Force suggestion, up to the point that I created physical discomfort. I found that they can be easily intimidated by a demonstration of strength. And it proved relatively simple to cause it to expire, merely by making its existence extremely painful. Ultimately, though it showed a great degree of willpower, it was no match for the power of the Force."



Vader struggles to TP a single Toydarian. To contrast, Darth Revan, a confirmed inferior to Malak is capable of ripping open the minds of hundreds to thousands of Rakatans and implanting basic in their head. Keep in mind that while a Toydarian is force resistant, the Rakatans were too. 


So, both Vader and Revan (inferior to Malak) have a feat of a similar nature (TP on a force resistant creature), but where Vader struggles with a single creature, Revan does so to hundreds or thousands with relative ease.

This shows that Malak (and his vast inferiors in Darth Revan and Exar Kun) are far more powerful than Darth Vader, combine this with Celeste scaling and we have two evident showings of massive gaps between Vader and Malak.Therefore, a stance such as Darth Revan, Exar Kun, etc are above Vader (if not vastly above him) is completely reliable, if not accurate.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on January 1st 2020, 12:11 pm
right now my opinion still states with lorenzo tbh
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on January 1st 2020, 12:15 pm
Will it ever change lmao?
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on January 1st 2020, 12:17 pm
IG (Exists) wrote:Will it ever change lmao?
imao lets see first how this end and maybe just maybe i will held malak a little high but nothing comparable to the top dogs smh
IG
IG
Level Four
Level Four

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on January 1st 2020, 12:32 pm
Vader isn’t a top dog...
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on January 1st 2020, 1:00 pm
IG (Exists) wrote:Vader isn’t a top dog...
🇪🇭
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
Level Two

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on January 1st 2020, 1:10 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Says the guy who doenst know when Roan Shryne died (https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Roan_Shryne ). Anyhow, the Pall is OBVIOUSLY speaking of the past. About the first time they saw the map, about how their powers were only strong cuz of the map itself, etc. He literally talks about the start of his career as a dark sider. "Only we would know" is in past tense. He doenst even remember, meaning that he cannot possibly be speaking of the present. He is reliving memories. He also tells him what will happen, just like what happened to him in the past (which I assume is that he will be turned to the dark side, just like Pall was). He literally says that it was from long ago, meaning that he is 100% speaking of the past lol.



"We were not the first to fall to the dark side. But we had more power than those before us. It came from elsewhere - our oldest secret. Only we would know, we lords. Only we would know where our power came from. It is a secret of so long ago. I no longer remember. So much power, it is blinding. You must find this place, or have you? Or did you? Or will you? Oh, so many images. I see your heart, human Jedi. I see your power, your pride. You, you will find the old place, the dark place, and you will regret it."


And I never disregarded your Kun scaling lol If you wanted statements of power, Vader has plenty, but I dont even know if Ill actually need them for now. And you have yet again not told me how the Star Forge is so far above the maps. 


"Malak >> SF >>>>>>>> Star Map > Exiles >> Pall > Muur still stands."


That becomes:


Malak >> SF >> Star Map > Noobs Exiles (when they first found/used the Maps, vastly pre prime) >> Noob Pall (when he first fond/used the Maps, vastly pre prime) > Noob Muur (when he first found/used the Maps, vastly pre prime)


As for your Kreia/ Avellone things, first things first, she is CLEARLY speaking of drain there, and not power. Nihilus has better showings of drain than even Palpatine i believe, but i doubt you Nihilus above Palpatine in power. Secondly, the Avellone part comes from when she speaks of lightsaber dueling, so what he confirms is that ancient sith were better duelists, and not that they were in fact better with drain. Oh, and Vader is said by Avellone to be capable of beating Nihilus anyhow lol So now we have your iffy statement not talking about power, which is also not even confirmed to be true in the first, or my statement, also from Avellone, saying that Vader would beat Nihilus anyhow? I think mine is more impressive.


https://twitter.com/chrisavellone/status/1056378721790132224?lang=bg


Cool for Nihilus. Now Vader is even MORE powerful than her too. 


Wow... this scaling chain. Ive already debunked your statement of power up above, but somehow, you put Nihilus below Ludo Kressh. Now that... is amazing to see. Sheesh.


I have yet to see this quote about her being average. Could you post it please? I already implied/stated that Muur was likely far stronger than her as well. IDK why you are reiterating this.


As for your statement about the prime of the jedi, Lucas says the same about the PT era, making your quotes useless. Vader fights Jedi above your average Jedi all the time, who already stronger than the average OR Jedi in the first place.


I dont mind proving your point (specially if its true), simply because you cant even prove that dying, half powered Krayt is actually stronger than Hett in the first place. He DID grow massively in power, i cant deny that, but healthy, full powered, far above Hett =/= Dying, Vong infested body, diverted powers Krayt. He is, in fact, massively weaker, making the power difference between him and Hett nigh existent, if not weaker than Hett. 


I dont understand what you are saying here. You say that Dooku had more technical skill, but skill with a blade also depends on strength in the force, even though Anakin is far above Dooku in that regard. As for Hett and Obi Wan, i never said he couldnt give him a good sex. What i did say is Obi Wan did in fact beat him decisively. You can say what you want or what you think, that still seems to be the case to me. Make a good argument on it, and ill tell if you changed my point of view or not.


Ill say my own two cents real quick:


Anakin stomping Dooku wasnt simply due to skill- it had power and speed to it as well. The difference is skill between the two is not huge at all, in my opinion. Anakin is simply more skilled, faster, and stronger, and yet, Dooku could still somewhat hold his own, while his strength in the force is honestly, nothing when compared to Anakin's. Skill is not necessarily equal to how strong one is in the force. Sidious is stronger in the force than Yoda, and yet Yoda outdueled him. Same for Kas'im and Bane. Bane was much stronger in the force than Kas'im, and while it did give him an advantage, he had to be at his best, mentally and physically, while using the force to control his movements to actually out duel Kas'im, who could still hold his own, and semi stomped Bane once he got his second saber out. 


That thing says that Obi Wan is 50% stronger than Vader. I dont know if you knew this, but that would make Old Obi Wan stronger than Sidious, who is only 20% stronger than Vader, who only a supposed 80% of Sidious' powers. Chee can have all the authority he wants, by the way, but not a single other piece of media says that Obi Wan was his superior by that much, or his superior at all. Thats an easy 15 or more iterations of the fight that contradict what he says in that tweet. I do wonder what the priority here is, though. Something Chee funnily left out is that Ben was fighting to win, and yet, he couldnt, so i think its better for you to keep your story straight, when we have Vader being on the offensive the whole time, even though Ben was supposedly stronger and trying to beat him. How does that work? Something else is that Obi Wan himself says that Vader had gotten stronger and more skilled since their duel on Mustafar, even during the movie, i believe, who already stronger than prime Kenobi, so like, whats its gonna be Star Wars lol


Many years later, Obi-Wan and Darth Vader duel a second time. The Sith Lord is now more experienced and powerful. -Beware The Sith

This duel was very different from their last. Obi-Wan was older and weaker while Vader was even stronger, fueled by hatred and thirst for revenge. - Jedi Battles
In his duel against Darth Vader on Bespin, Luke Skywalker reveals himself as an extraordinarily gifted artist with the blade who has largely taught himself. After a single brief session with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only a short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers. - Insider 62

“This is a fight you cannot win, Darth. Your power has matured since I taught you, but I too have grown much since our parting. If my blade finds its mark, you will cease to exist. But if you cut me down, I will only become more powerful. Heed my words.”-A New Hope

Vader survived, but not unscarred-his shattered body encased in life-supporting armor and a breath mask. In spite of these handicaps, Vader thrived. in fact, he found a way to turn these to his advantage. He had his breath mask crafted into a sinister black helmet and, donning a black cloak over his black armor, he became a figure out of nightmare. From the ashes of defeat, Vader emerged even stronger. -Lightsaber Dueling Pack: Darth Vader



As for Vader being utterly stomped by enraged Luke, lucky me that BOD is working on a blog for that, because one can clearly tell that you know nothing about the circumstances surrounding that fight. Not only is Vader getting closer and closer to being Anakin again as the fight goes on (stated by guess who? Luke during the fight itself. Go watch the movie), Luke gets angrier and angrier, drawing on the dark side more and more. Not only that, Luke's base was already stronger than Obi Wan ever was (which i also already stated and proved). I could post the possible amps that Palpatine couldve/wouldve likely given to Luke during that fight (about 4 of them, i think), since he did, very much so, want Luke to win, but Ill leave that out for now.


And like i previously said, Ben being a 6, and Vader being a 4 makes Ben stronger than Sidious per simple math lol it also means that ANH Luke has around 40% of Sidious' power, which is also not the case. Dont rely on statements from Lucas too much, is what ill say for now.


I posted the link to Roan's death up above, first thing i did, i believe. 


No, thats not what i said, but nice twist of my words there. I said that Proxy could have been convincingly more skilled than Ben, and he still got stomped by Vader, after Vader was caught off guard, and after he was obviously mentally f*cuked by Obi Wan's face. 


Man, that Gillard scale. I can never find anything funnier than that. If said tiers were so obviously far apart from each, Anakin wouldve destroyed Obi Wan in about 10 seconds, or Kit Fisto wouldve never blocked Sidious's blades, or Dooku wouldnt have defended himself for so long, on two different fights, against Yoda, who went for the kill on both fights. Actually, let me ask you a serious question. Anakin is a lower level of 9 than either Yoda or Sidious, but since you like to believe that even within the tiers, the skill gap is so huge, do you honestly believe that Sidious or Yoda could believably stomp Anakin? Or that Anakin could stomp Mace Windu? Is that how you really see this? 


I love how you add little details to things which i have already proven to be false in that scaling chain, but ok lol


First things first, i cannot read a single one of those. Idk if im just blind, or if the text is too small, or if the quality isnt too good, but i still cant see it. In any case, that fight was made to satisfy fans. How do you think fans wouldve reacted if they ended it with Vader force choking him? throwing his saber at Maul's head? Collapsing the ceiling on him? Him struggling against Maul like goes against his other dueling feats against people with just as much hype as Qui Gon. Vader beating people like Roan Shryne (his hype is around AOTC Obi Wan level, his power and strength is said to be extreme, and he is a master of the lightsaber) while mentally hindered (the whole novel points out the fact that before he kills Roan, he is still unsure about, well, everything. If he is Anakin or Vader, if he should trust God or not, if he made the right decisions, if he could regain his powers, etc), Anya Kuro (whom Mara Jade herself couldnt beat) solidly, who could fight against Hett, without much trouble (before he was a dark sider), fighting Galen Marek AND Starkiller, groups of jedi masters, etc all pre prime prime, go against him losing to Maul that badly. Secondly, Maul is not stated to be more powerful than Vader in that comic, ever. Not even his equal. In fact, i believe that there is one point in that comic in which is winning agaisnt Maul, and only starts to lose once he cut Maul's saber in two, giving him a new blade to work with. He beat Vader using an advantage that Vader couldnt even replicate lol then you complain about cheapshots.


And yes, humans are fodders, technically speaking. You dont even have a timeframe for that feat. And anti feats for Vader?? Oh no!! Im doomed. Bring me a feat as good as casually ripping information, while weakened, from a force user's mind stronger than prime Obi Wan, who resisted the whole time, from Malak. Vader's TP powers >>>> Obi Wan+ level telepathy resistance. Kun dominating the minds of humans, without even a timeframe, is not as impressive as that.


So not have you not proven that Muur is even stronger than Vader, that Celeste is average, that Nihilus is weaker than ancient sith, that Vader's telepathy is weak, that Malak is stronger than Vader, that Ben could have even beaten Vader, that Luke, using his own power, stomped Vader, who was not at his best at all, that Maul was even more skilled than Vader in the first place, much less more powerful, and what not else, while i proved that Vader is stronger than Ben per 5 or 6 sources, that Vader is more skilled than him, that Vader grew massively since he fought Celeste, that he has beaten force users that were as good as they come (some stronger than Maul), that Vader is far stronger that force users who were stronger than even Dooku, all the while still having about two full respect threads waiting to be used.


Last edited by lorenzo.r.2nd on January 1st 2020, 5:59 pm; edited 2 times in total
avatar
BoD (Away)
Level Six
Level Six

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

on January 1st 2020, 1:12 pm
SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Giphy
Sponsored content

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

Back to top
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum