SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

December 30th 2019, 8:56 pm

THIS DEBATE HAS FINISHED. @IG IS THE VICTOR BY CONCESSION

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) 79a85310

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) 680c6e10

Darth Malak as of Knights of the Old Republic, Darth Vader as of Return of the Jedi.

This thread follows all default stipulations listed in the "Guidlines" thread. Additional rules are as follows:

Feats take precedence over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.
Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.
All letter or number statistics ascribed to characters from C-Canon sources, including role-playing games and trading cards, are banned.

There will be 3 posts per side, and a finisher with a month for both debaters to write each post, and two weeks to write the finisher.

December 30th 2019, 9:07 pm

Good jobness

December 31st 2019, 7:20 am

TAEP This could be a great fight

December 31st 2019, 7:30 am

December 31st 2019, 11:00 am

December 31st 2019, 11:37 am

TAEP (first time participating in an SS/CAV like this uwu)

December 31st 2019, 11:38 am

What do you mean you’re participating?

December 31st 2019, 11:44 am

IG (Exists) wrote:What do you mean you’re participating!

Oh noes I didn’t mean it like that, obviously you sweetpeas shall take the reigns! I wish you the best of luck in your CAV, same with the opposition (>~<)b may the best debater win

December 31st 2019, 11:46 am

I meant to write a question mark lmao. I meant what does that mean in general? First time you’re witnessing, first time you’re there from the beginning, etc.

December 31st 2019, 12:13 pm

I - The Big Floating Space Station

Okay, so Malak’s most impressive feat is easily his domination of the Star Forge, something that even the greatest of Sith would find difficult to replicate, and for good reason, the Forge is described as a “tool of the dark side. It corrupts those who use it so that it can generate greater and greater amounts of negative energy to fuel itself”, and was said to have directly caused the downfall of the Rakata, an empire that spanned hundreds of worlds.

The Star Forge also provides Malak with his best scaling chains, which propels him miles above Vader.

Wizards of the Coast: Darth Malak wrote:An imposing figure with ghostly pale features, prominent Sith tattoos, a gleaming red lightsaber, and devastating Dark Side power, Malak struck terror into the hearts of his former allies. He also wore a vocal mask that may have concealed a form of cybernetic life-support. Did it provide him with powers far greater than even Exar Kun or Freedon Nadd, or was cybernetic enhancement too simple an explanation?

This isn’t speculating whether or whether not Malak has “powers far greater than even Exar Kun”, it’s speculating what gave him said powers, therefore Malak >> Kun.

Kun’s greatest feat is his telepathic domination of the entire senate.

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) 8XW9MUMD-RHosmO2TUFrNqaV_4hZK_KITXIru8YMAdbcLwanvISku9pjC2mrD9sPMhIc89MbxXGfrqURJqhkd58FYWhYnkejSJPziEPQCxJkoe2IoAOEu48AzZv5jir_fLoiq4a2

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) 8XW9MUMD-RHosmO2TUFrNqaV_4hZK_KITXIru8YMAdbcLwanvISku9pjC2mrD9sPMhIc89MbxXGfrqURJqhkd58FYWhYnkejSJPziEPQCxJkoe2IoAOEu48AzZv5jir_fLoiq4a2

For reference, this is how large a football stadium (Metlife, to be specific) that seats 82500 people is.

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) J8mQ9GEoRrvJCk6OnAJPuI3Q2QVo5C6fH_kBTXrKl8QNHWI_xf1e9T4ZYzR9cHoLLAp_9OqTsjEU0EQ0a_nNqQIiCXwcxKo2qFm7SHUlMqFNg0PCjpiBNduJUY1pZ3BqeZ3uEQBn

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) J8mQ9GEoRrvJCk6OnAJPuI3Q2QVo5C6fH_kBTXrKl8QNHWI_xf1e9T4ZYzR9cHoLLAp_9OqTsjEU0EQ0a_nNqQIiCXwcxKo2qFm7SHUlMqFNg0PCjpiBNduJUY1pZ3BqeZ3uEQBn

Telepathically screwing over these many people is something that Vader doesn’t even begin to approach.

Malak also scales vastly above the Exiles by merit of his mastery of the Forge. According to Ajunta Pall, the source of the Exiles’ power was a Star Map, an artifact that is infinitely weaker than the Forge, and Malak managed to Master the Forge, and take it to extremes.

Ajunta Pall wrote:
"We were not the first to fall to the dark side. But we had more power than those before us. It came from elsewhere - our oldest secret. Only we would know, we lords. Only we would know where our power came from. It is a secret of so long ago. I no longer remember. So much power, it is blinding. You must find this place, or have you? Or did you? Or will you? Oh, so many images. I see your heart, human Jedi. I see your power, your pride. You, you will find the old place, the dark place, and you will regret it."

Therefore, Malak > Star Forge >>>>>>>>>> Star Map > Exiles >> Pall > Muur.

Karness Muur has a feat of defeating Vader (pre prime Vader, but still with relative ease).
SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) 9Pw7FPqrc7LV8c61CKd4zuS1uWuE-Hfpvquwfm8qnbCr-ajMzMjgMZhdbvkqw6Kz5c2INBROP1jUz0AQQAU0wyMmSmHBjSMBfsWRQs8Iwe2L6ZBVI_w-xLkgbb8wPBVleLNdkXPm

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) 9Pw7FPqrc7LV8c61CKd4zuS1uWuE-Hfpvquwfm8qnbCr-ajMzMjgMZhdbvkqw6Kz5c2INBROP1jUz0AQQAU0wyMmSmHBjSMBfsWRQs8Iwe2L6ZBVI_w-xLkgbb8wPBVleLNdkXPm

This is important because the collective Exiles are a bug to Malak in power, and Muur is described as having the power to stop Vader when Celeste Morne didn’t.

Meaning that to even come close to Malak, Vader would have to jump several tiers, something he likely hasn’t done, or rather, something you would have to prove he’s done.

II - An Old, Wheezing Man in a Metal Suit.

Vader has been described as vastly inferior to his pre-suit self, to the point where multiple on this site alone have labelled him as < TPM Kenobi. While this is obviously untrue, it’s reflective of how weak Vader is.

Malak scales from Karness Muur, as I’ve already proven, and Muur scales directly above forces such as Darth Krayt.

Insider #113: Profile: Darth Krayt wrote:On Had Abbadon, in the Deep Core, Krayt confronted Skywalker a second time. But a third Force-user possessed powers that outshone them both. Karness Muur, an ancient Sith spirit, blasted Krayt with overpowering energy, sending him over a cliff to the rocks below

.

To outshine means to “be much better than (someone) in a particular area.”, therefore Muur > Vong Krayt.

Given that Krayt improves dramatically over the hundred years after he duels Obi Wan Kenobi, we can determine that Muur > Vong Krayt >>> Hett < Kenobi.

When he duels Darth Vader, Obi Wan is described as a “shadow of his former self”, meaning that Muur > Vong Krayt >>> Hett < Kenobi >>> Ben = Vader.

So to conclude this, Malak > Star Forge >>>>>>>>>> Star Maps > Exiles >> Pall > Muur > Vong Krayt >>> Hett < Kenobi >>>> Ben = Vader.

Vader’s showings at or near his prime pale in comparison to those of Malak’s vast inferiors. I don’t see why this really is a contest at all.

@lorenzo.r.2nd: Your move

Tags: @AlexSerp @xolthol @gueliston @“The lord of hunger”

December 31st 2019, 12:16 pm

.... ok what is this abomination of post?

December 31st 2019, 12:16 pm

Goddamnit, the text is too large, isn’t it.

December 31st 2019, 12:16 pm

IG (Exists) wrote:Goddamnit, the text is too large, isn’t it.

not only that .....

December 31st 2019, 12:19 pm

Then I’m confused as to what you’re implying. Aren’t you the one that declined this?

December 31st 2019, 12:26 pm

IG (Exists) wrote:I meant to write a question mark lmao. I meant what does that mean in general? First time you’re witnessing, first time you’re there from the beginning, etc.

The latter, and also that this is my first time witnessing an active CAV where I’m part of the “inner circle” involved in the chattings and etc. instead of a lurker watching from the shadows.

December 31st 2019, 12:28 pm

Ah okay. Where are you from (other debating communities)? I feel like I’ve seen you on CV.

December 31st 2019, 12:36 pm

IG (Exists) wrote:Ah okay. Where are you from (other debating communities)? I feel like I’ve seen you on CV.

tbh, you probably haven’t met me since I haven’t even made an account there XD. Really I just lurk from forum to forum. Only debating community I was somewhat active in r/whowouldwin and there I eventually got bored. I do hope this will be different though, since the argumentations here are different from usual versus communities, and in a really good way too. Knowledge is on point, different ideas, methodologies and arguments are being thrown around like balls of yarn... something about it is different.

A surprise to be sure but a welcome one SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) 1019854026

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd) 1019854026

December 31st 2019, 12:37 pm

Lmao. Nice to see you here anyway, we needed some new members.

December 31st 2019, 12:38 pm

Gueliston wrote:

IG (Exists) wrote:Ah okay. Where are you from (other debating communities)? I feel like I’ve seen you on CV.

tbh, you probably haven’t met me since I haven’t even made an account there XD. Really I just lurk from forum to forum. Only debating community I was somewhat active in r/whowouldwin and there I eventually got bored. I do hope this will be different though, since the argumentations here are different from usual versus communities, and in a really good way too. Knowledge is on point, different methodologies and arguments are being played like balls of yarn... something about it is different.

A surprise to be sure but a welcome one

r/whowouldwin is not the same anymore ):

glad to have new members :3

December 31st 2019, 12:42 pm

@IG (Exists) @lord of hunger thx >~> seems like a fun place indeed.

>r/whowouldwin is not the same anymore ):

too true ;~;

December 31st 2019, 1:42 pm

I'll reply later today. It's 1:45 where I'm at, and I'm eating, is I'll answer in due time

December 31st 2019, 1:48 pm

lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:I'll reply later today. It's 1:45 where I'm at, and I'm eating, is I'll answer in due time

waiting for the post my lord

December 31st 2019, 1:57 pm

Lorenzo do me proud and I will give you a full scholarship to ISV's Vader University, where you will learn such scaling chains as:

ROTJ Vader > ROTJ Luke >>> ESB Luke approx. Vader > Ben >>> 18bby vader > ROTS Kenobi > Dooku

December 31st 2019, 4:47 pm

Isv wrote:Lorenzo do me proud and I will give you a full scholarship to ISV's Vader University, where you will learn such scaling chains as:

ROTJ Vader > ROTJ Luke >>> ESB Luke approx. Vader > Ben >>> 18bby vader > ROTS Kenobi > Dooku

this is the way

December 31st 2019, 6:00 pm Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

So, first things first, i have yet to see proof that the Forge is that much more powerful than the Map, henceforth turning this

"Malak > Star Forge >>>>>>>>>> Star Map > Exiles >> Pall > Muur."

into something more like this (btw, the Exiles ARE Muur, Pall, and co, so I honestly have no idea why u put that there)

Malak > Star Forge >> Star Map > Pall > Muur.

Now, ill address the Muur/Vader fight.

See, Celeste Morne is not some random Jedi Knight. Im sure u aware of Vader's attack on 8 Jedi masters, correct? Its a well known feat. Interestingly enough, Vader somewhat easily killed 4 or 5 of them, and yet, Celeste by herself seemed to give Vader more trouble than said 4 or 5. She may very well be the equivalent of 4 Jedi Master, if I got by this. Secondly, we have Muur aiding her by his powers to hers. Not only is he just as powerful as her, he very likely stronger than her, so by adding their powers, Celeste couldve easily doubled her powers. Last but not least, she would have needed to give in to the dark side, which can yet again, easily double someone's powers. THAT is the needed power to stop Vader. Celeste would've needed to quadruple her powers to actually stop Vader. That is about 16 to 20 Jedi Masters put together to stop Vader, if i were to wank this. To kill this off, is Muur's word supposed to trusted blindly now? He is famous for being a deceiver and manipulator. Him telling Celeste that they could beat Vader by becoming one instantly makes me think of Sidious telling Anakin that he can help Anakin keep his loved ones alive, maybe forever.

I am positively sure that you know that Krayt was not dying during that fight, but he was also diverting his powers to keep himself for longer. He quite literally fought and beat Krayt as Krayt's worst state. And I have yet to see any possible parity between Obi Wan and Hett, when we have Kenobi decisively beating him in both the story, and the comic. And iirc, in the comic, he beats him even more easily. As for Obi Wan, old and new, we have Vader state that some of his skill is there, and since the fight is in fact a duel, it was nothing more than a mentally hindered and unstable Darth Vader (i doubt i need to address, but if you need me to do so, i can find quotes for things) who was somehow afraid of being hit, and felt that Kenobi could killed him as easily as before, even though both him and Obi Wan knew that he is not the Obi Wan he used to be. We actually know that Vader has been 'disturbed' by Obi Wan's presence before, when he met Proxy who was using his Obi Wan module. Not only that, but Obi Wan was being pushed back the whole, and couldnt even counter attack.

Your scaling chains looks more or less like this now:

Malak > Star Forge >> Star Maps > Pall > Muur + Dark Side Amped Celeste > Dying, half powered Vong Krayt ? Hett << Kenobi >>>> Ben < Mentally hindered and unstable Vader.

My turn now. Thankfully, you already had me talk about Muur, Vader, and Celeste before, so Ill just add on to it from now on.

So, back then I showed you that Celeste x4 (or more) is equal to, or possibly stronger than Vader (which is already iffy from the get go). You said that i needed to prove that Vader grew massively in power to actually reach Malak? That's what Ill do then. I made a blog talking about his power growth before, so im sorry if it seems like im taking points from there, because, well, I am.

So we have 19 BBY Vader being equal to Muur plus a Dark Side amped Celeste Morne, which should already mean that Vader is likely stronger than Muur. 18 BBY Vader is stronger than that. 18 BBY Vader, after he killed Roan Shryne, is now even more powerful, feeling the real power of the Dark Side now like never before, making me think that this amp is bigger than when Anakin gave in to the Dark Side for the first time.

More important, Vader's bloodlust had been appeased; replaced by self-possession of a sort he had never before experienced. It was as if he had crossed some invisible threshold to a new world. He could feel the power of the dark side surging through him like an icy torrent. He felt invulnerable in a way that had nothing to do with his durasteel prostheses, his suit of armor and gadgets, which now seemed little more than an outfit. And it had taken a Jedi–yet another Jedi–to usher him over that threshold.
--
Sidious was pleased. Vader had done well. He had sensed the change in him, even in the brief conversation they had had following the events on Kashyyyk. Now that Vader had begun to tap deeply into the power of the dark side, his true apprenticeship could begin. The Jedi were incidental to him. He was covetous of the power Sidious wielded, and believed that one day they would be equals. - Dark Lord: The Rise Of Darth Vader

Then we go to The Force Unleashed Dark Vader, which is 18 years of power growth for Vader. Thankfully for me, Vader has a quote in which he states that his powers grow momentarily. I wont wank this too hard, but it does mean that 18 years can make a HUGE difference in power between TFU Vader and 18 BBY Vader.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11115/111155790/5833843-dw8.jpg < bottom of the page. Sorry that it looks so horrible btw lol

Then we have TFU 2 Vader, in which he has now grown quite a good deal yet again, enough to be likely a good deal stronger than Starkiller, or least his match, who was already more powerful than Galen Marek ever was.

Next we have A New Hope Vader, who is even stronger than before, albeit, i doubt it to be a significant power growth. I decided to mention simply because i have to win this lol

Now we have The Empire Strikes Back Vader, in which he grew to be far more formidable than before, meaning a clearly significant growth in power.

Within the armoed forces Vader now holds absolute power over the higher Imperial officers who scorned him earlier in his career. This situation reflects Vader's greater mastery over himself and over the Force in the time since the Battle of Yavin, an improvement that is readily apparent in his lightsaber style during the duel with Luke Skywalker on Bespin. Vader has largely freed himself of pain through the Force in the years since the Battle of Yavin and, by practice with living opponents both willing and unwilling, he has advanced his lightsaber technique. Baron Orman Tagge serves as testament to Vader's technique by this era, precisely blinded in both eyes by Vader's blade in a duel. Vader is thus a far more formidable foe on Bespin than he was against Ben Kenobi on the Death Star. - Insider #62

When the Death Star exploded, it was believed that Vader had been lost to the void. But he returned, more powerful than before, and was given command of the fleet assigned to track down Skywalker and the Rebel fleet. - Galaxy Guide 1: A New Hope

The more powerful figures may often be defeated but not slain. They may flee, like Darth Vader after the destruction of the Death Star, to return more powerful on another day. - Gamer 5

After a single with Obi-Wan Kenobi years ago, and only short time with Yoda, Skywalker is able to hold up against a Dark Lord of the Sith at the height of his powers. - https://www.writeurl.com/text/hvzw6ml3qvx978tdu09u/9dvm40pxnuot23wxuvna

At the end we have Return Of The Jedi, in which Vader is now at his peak, stronger than ever.

His power was great, now, greater than it had ever been. It shimmered from within, and resonated with the waves of darkness that flowed from the Emperor. - Return Of The Jedi

More powerful in the Force than ever before as well as a master of the lightsaber, Darth Vader prepares for his final battle as the Rebel fleet hammers the fully operational Death Star. - Darth Vader Return Of Anakin Skywalker

Darth Vader presses forward... strong, skillful, sure! Exhibiting more deadly invincibility than ever! - Return of the Jedi Comic

Now we have:

ROTJ Vader > ESB Vader >> ANH Vader > TFU 2 Vader >> TFU 1 Vader >>>> 18 BBY (post killing Roan) >> 18 BBY (pre killing Roan) > 19 BBY = Muur + Dark Side Celeste

I used 13 of these > up there, amount up to this:

ROTJ Vader >>>>>>>>>>>>> Muur + Dark Side Celeste

While you have this:

Malak > Star Forge >> Star Maps > Pall > Muur + Dark Side Amped Celeste

You have 5 of these up there, which amounts to:

Malak >>>>> Muur + Dark Side Celeste.

Seems to me that I win this round.

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

SS - Darth Malak (IdrisianGraecus) vs. Darth Vader (Lorenzo.r.2nd)

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