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BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Six
Level Six

Lightsaber duelist scale  - Page 2 Empty Re: Lightsaber duelist scale

on November 26th 2019, 11:24 am
@MasterCilghal wrote:
@BreakofDawn wrote:
@MasterCilghal wrote:
@BreakofDawn wrote:Small correction: KFV wasn't > Yoda. Only MFV is ~ Yoda.
Except it’s stated: he had “unparalleled force abilities”
Citation?


Palpatine elevated himself to the position of Emperor, and dispatched Vader as his ultimate enforcer. With his unparalleled Force abilities, Vader swept through the Jedi Temple.
-darth Vader databank
The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia also has something different:

Inside the spacious interior of the Galactic Senate chamber, Yoda challenged the Emperor. The two engaged in a spectacular duel—a contest between the most powerful practitioners of the Force's light and dark sides. The Emperor proved too powerful to defeat. Although Yoda held his own for much of the duel, in the end the Sith bested him. He realized that continuing to directly confront Palpatine would mean failure. Defeated, Yoda slunk away into the shadow's of the Senate chamber's cavernous depths, leaping into a waiting getaway speeder piloted by Bail Organa.
--Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

Also, that quote can quite easily refer to the Jedi in the Temple, not universally. Your powers can be unparalleled within a group of people and still be inferior outside of it.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Six
Level Six

Lightsaber duelist scale  - Page 2 Empty Re: Lightsaber duelist scale

on November 26th 2019, 11:26 am
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
@BreakofDawn wrote:
@DarthAnt66 wrote:Don’t correct when you’re wrong
It's simple logic. At his peak, Vader is stated to be = Sidious. Mustafar Vader is confirmed to be stronger than KFV. If Anakin's peak is Sidious level, and MFV > KFV, ergo KFV isn't = Yoda.

Lightsaber duelist scale  - Page 2 2829155256

Order 66 empowered Palpatine and KFV. "KFV" also encompasses Vader's power-level at the end of the raid, which is functionally the same as MFV pre-Padme's arrival*. The point of "KFV" and "MFV" is to differentiate an empowered, enlightened Vader versus an empowered, unstable Vader. Hyper-distinguishing between KFV, pre-Padme MFV (who you say is with Palpatine), and post-Padme MFV is redundant and ultimately unnecessary. This (incorrect) semantics game runs contrary to the whole point.

(*Vader marches up Temple steps -> Order 66 happens and he kills hundreds of Jedi, grows stronger -> Goes to Mustafar now empowered.)

((Note that given Palpatine's also empowered by Order 66, that doesn't preclude pre-66 Palpatine ~ pre-66 Vader.))
Ah, my mistake then. I assumed that KFV referred to specifically Knightfall, not after Knightfall. I prefer distinguishing between them with KFV and unhindered MFV since it just feels more specific. Thanks for clearing that up.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
Moderator
Moderator

Lightsaber duelist scale  - Page 2 Empty Re: Lightsaber duelist scale

on November 26th 2019, 11:26 am
Ah my mistake then. I assumed that KFV referred to specifically Knightfall, not after Knightfall.

Well, KFV at the end of KF is still KFV. It's not really necessary to create a new iteration for Vader for that.

It seems the only reason to do that would be to try to prevent Vader from being w/ Palpatine and Yoda by just using KFV and MFV.
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level Three
Level Three

Lightsaber duelist scale  - Page 2 Empty Re: Lightsaber duelist scale

on November 26th 2019, 11:57 am
@BreakOfDawn wrote:The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia also has something different:

The duel between Yoda and Palpatine takes place while Kenobi and Vader were dueling on Mustafar, which is an important factor to consider: It is entire possibile Vader’s hindrance while fighting Kenobi, which hampered his ability to draw on the force, is the reason for why Palpatine was, at point, stronger than him. Otherwise, we’re left with you saying that MF Vader is comparable to Yoda and Sidious, and Lucas agrees: 

George Lucas wrote:From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that.  
So either the quote is downright wrong or it’s referring to the amount of power Vader could draw on while dueling Kenobi. Either way, it’s not referring to KFV, and is therefore irrelevant.


@BreakOfDawn wrote:Also, that quote can quite easily refer to the Jedi in the Temple, not universally. Your powers can be unparalleled within a group of people and still be inferior outside of it.

I don’t think that is the correct interpretation of the quote. I’m sorry that I have difficulty explaining it, but what I mean is that the emphasis is on the fact that his abilities are unparalleled, which he then “used” to sweep through the temple. So I think it is definitely universal. Having said that my stance is that KF Vader is at least on par with Sidious, potentially greater, though I admit that is up for debate.
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
Level Two

Lightsaber duelist scale  - Page 2 Empty Re: Lightsaber duelist scale

on December 3rd 2019, 7:12 pm
idk if we bump here, but bump lol
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