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lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on November 25th 2019, 7:23 pm
Im sorry for stealing someone else's idea lol ive been thinking of doing this for a long time, and I found something quite cool while reading Path Of Destruction (first book in the Darth Bane trilogy, very good) that states that Kas'im, Bane's master and lightsaber instructor, is not only the best duelist in the galaxy, but he might just be the best EVER. This is, to say the least, hella impressive, but also quite useful, as it now tells us that a linear scale can be made when comparing old sith to new ones. I want people to give input in here, tell me who could come above and below, how and why, so that a simple tier list can be made. PS I do realize that the quote below is no news, but i have yet to see it being used, henceforth me making this thread.

(EXACT QUOTE, Chapter 23 "Within the first few passes, Bane knew he couldn't win. Kas'im had trained his entire life for this moment. after years of study, he'd mastered all seven forms of the lightsaber. Then he'd honed his skills for decades, perfecting every move and sequence until he had become the perfect weapon and the greatest living swordsman in the galaxy. Maybe the greatest swordsman ever. Bane was no match for him.")

I can understand this statement being incredulous, hyperbolic, and what not, but as far as i can tell, nothing disproves the statement above, and the character being fodder doesnt dismiss his skill, nor is that even a valid argument.

I suppose first things first is to say that he is equal to, or better than, all impressive jedi and sith that came before this novel, chronologically speaking. That would include Revan, the Outlander, Exar Kun, Ulic Qel-droma, Malgus, Arcann, Malak, Naga Sadow, Freedon Nadd, Marka Ragnos, Siosk Bass etc. 

Impressively enough, Bane actually matched, and outdueled Kas'im, before Kas'im pulled out his dual wielding. So POD Bane with the force in control, at least=> Kas'im. 

ROTS Anakin (better than Dooku, and could fight him extremely well in TCW) ~ Yoda (literally the best duelist in the jedi order of all time, could outduel Sheev, without much strain from what i could tell)> ROTS Dooku (noticeably superior to before) ~ ROTS Sidious (could fight Yoda extremely well, but still got outdueled, so i put him under)> AOTC Dooku (supposedly much better than before, made yoda worry about sheev since only his apprentice was already at this lvl, made yoda go for the kill) > Jedi Dooku (consistently said to have been the only person yoda had to try against, and that yoda was his only real superior, which would include Mace Windu, Sidious, Plagueis, some spirits, blah blah blah)> Plagueis (according to the author, Plagueis is the superior duelist)> TPM Sheev (has had better training for longer than Bane did, and stronger in the force, so i assume its safe to say they are comparable) ~ DOE Bane> ROT Bane> POD Bane>= Kas'im>= previous swordsman.
DarthAnt66
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on November 25th 2019, 7:44 pm
This is from Bane’s POV
BreakofDawn
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on November 25th 2019, 8:38 pm
I highly doubt he's more skilled than the Outlander or Arcann. Bear in mind this source is outdated and from Bane's POV.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on November 25th 2019, 8:59 pm
being from Bane's POV means that...? And i doubt it matters. The narrator is stating the situation and how outclassed Bane is, there are no opinions, or bias, or anything like that affecting the state of the quote. And being old means absolutely nothing, unless the statement is contradicted.

BreakofDawn
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on November 25th 2019, 10:21 pm
Bane doesn't even know who the Outlander or Arcann exist for one. For another, he has no way to judge the abilities of the Outlander or Arcann, both of whom lived about 2,000 years before him and left no holocrons, documents, etc. depicting their abilities.
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on November 25th 2019, 10:59 pm
so ignore the thing about it not being bane's opinions. and funny how bane doenst of arcann, or the outlander, but seems to know a whole about revan too huh lol
BreakofDawn
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on November 25th 2019, 11:27 pm
Because (out of universe) Revan had already been created, and in-universe the Outlander and Arcann still haven't been mentioned.

It's all redundant anyway, since Kas'im is essentially featless compared to them and Bane doesn't have any authority to make sweeping claims regarding swordsmanship.
DarthAnt66
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on November 26th 2019, 12:14 am
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:being from Bane's POV means that...? And i doubt it matters. The narrator is stating the situation and how outclassed Bane is, there are no opinions, or bias, or anything like that affecting the state of the quote. And being old means absolutely nothing, unless the statement is contradicted.

The vast majority of Star Wars novels, including the Darth Bane Trilogy, aren't third-person omniscient. They're third-person limited that adopt the perspectives of a character -- in this case, Bane's. Bane has no actual clue how good Jedi and Sith thousands of years prior were good with the lightsaber. Obviously it's good hype for Bane to speculate Kas'im "may be"* better than them, but it's not really usable in that way. That's why this quote hasn't been used despite being well-known.

*Also, emphasis on "maybe." Kas'im "may be" the greatest swordsman ever -- he "may not." Bane doesn't know because he wasn't there to see Revan and Kun fight.
LadyKulvax
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on November 26th 2019, 12:20 am
Yeah, mastery is only getting you so far. Cin Drallig mastered the forms moreso than anyone else in the Jedi Order. But he got, like, three-shotted by Vader. Though if you want to argue that anyone performing well against Knightfall Vader in his absolute prime would be nothing short of a Sheev/Yoda tier feat. The fact is, we have no reason to think he's as good as the B-team members. Nevermind Maul, Kenobi, Dooku tiers.
Dolph
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on November 26th 2019, 2:55 am
@BreakofDawn wrote:I highly doubt he's more skilled than the Outlander or Arcann. Bear in mind this source is outdated and from Bane's POV.
How does Bane not know about Vaylin, Valkorion, HoT, and Arcann? If he knows the Shadow of Revan exists I'm sure he knows they exist as well
DarthAnt66
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on November 26th 2019, 2:56 am
Bane's knowledge of Revan stops with KOTOR.
Dolph
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on November 26th 2019, 2:57 am
@DarthAnt66 wrote:Bane's knowledge of Revan stops with KOTOR.
I thought he continued his holocron during SoR
SithSauce
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on November 26th 2019, 3:01 am
EmperorCaedus wrote:
@DarthAnt66 wrote:Bane's knowledge of Revan stops with KOTOR.
I thought he continued his holocron during SoR
No he only had access to Darth Revan's holocron. Also Revan wasn't even a sith in SOR
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on November 26th 2019, 8:20 am
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:being from Bane's POV means that...? And i doubt it matters. The narrator is stating the situation and how outclassed Bane is, there are no opinions, or bias, or anything like that affecting the state of the quote. And being old means absolutely nothing, unless the statement is contradicted.

The vast majority of Star Wars novels, including the Darth Bane Trilogy, aren't third-person omniscient. They're third-person limited that adopt the perspectives of a character -- in this case, Bane's. Bane has no actual clue how good Jedi and Sith thousands of years prior were good with the lightsaber. Obviously it's good hype for Bane to speculate Kas'im "may be"* better than them, but it's not really usable in that way. That's why this quote hasn't been used despite being well-known.

*Also, emphasis on "maybe." Kas'im "may be" the greatest swordsman ever -- he "may not." Bane doesn't know because he wasn't there to see Revan and Kun fight.

i dont disagree that it does seem like his opinion is being stated here, i of course took that into consideration at first, but it seems to me that the narrator is not just stating what is in bane's mind, but also how fucked he is. i dont have a 100% certainty that he is>>>>>>>>>>> any person who ever picked up a blade ever, but it does seem to speak to his skill. bane was known by the other sith at his time to have read a bit too much about/into the old republic/ ancient sith, enough that people complained to him about it. he had somewhat good knowledge on revan (not just the holocron, but he read like, every single piece of info on him that the korriban academy had, so no, not just about darth revan either), and pretty good insight on naga sadow, who was well known for his swordsmanship, and yet, bane still considers the idea that kas'im may likely be better than either of them were. bane may have been naive at times, but he was never a fool. of course, he does show bias towards kas'im, as he liked him as a master, and kas'im liked him as a student, so this may very well be nothing but bane sucking his dick. what do u personally think?
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on November 26th 2019, 8:25 am
@sithsauce @emperorcaedus @ladykulvax i tried putting my reasoning into the comment above, so just read that, give me ur input lol
MasterCilghal
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on November 26th 2019, 8:35 am
@LadyKulvax wrote:Yeah, mastery is only getting you so far. Cin Drallig mastered the forms moreso than anyone else in the Jedi Order. But he got, like, three-shotted by Vader. Though if you want to argue that anyone performing well against Knightfall Vader in his absolute prime would be nothing short of a Sheev/Yoda tier feat. The fact is, we have no reason to think he's as good as the B-team members. Nevermind Maul, Kenobi, Dooku tiers.
While I completely agree with you on the idea that mastery is hardly the main factor in one’s combat effectiveness, I think you’re being a bit too hard on Drallig. The fact that he even lasted a little bit against KFV, who at that point was >Yoda in force power, is more than can be said about most Jedi in the order. Combine that with the fact that he’s noted to be above Shaak Ti as an overall threat to Vader and and his accolades,  I do definitely think he can be placed at least on par with the B-team, potentially above.
BreakofDawn
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on November 26th 2019, 9:13 am
Small correction: KFV wasn't > Yoda. Only MFV is ~ Yoda.
DarthAnt66
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on November 26th 2019, 9:26 am
Don’t correct when you’re wrong
MasterCilghal
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on November 26th 2019, 9:28 am
@BreakofDawn wrote:Small correction: KFV wasn't > Yoda. Only MFV is ~ Yoda.
Except it’s stated: he had “unparalleled force abilities”
HellfireUnit
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on November 26th 2019, 9:31 am
MFV cannot be any near to Yoda or Sidious, wut?
BreakofDawn
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on November 26th 2019, 10:36 am
@DarthAnt66 wrote:Don’t correct when you’re wrong
It's simple logic. At his peak, Vader is stated to be = Sidious. Mustafar Vader is confirmed to be stronger than KFV. If Anakin's peak is Sidious level, and MFV > KFV, ergo KFV isn't = Yoda.
BreakofDawn
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on November 26th 2019, 10:42 am
@MasterCilghal wrote:
@BreakofDawn wrote:Small correction: KFV wasn't > Yoda. Only MFV is ~ Yoda.
Except it’s stated: he had “unparalleled force abilities”
Citation?
BreakofDawn
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on November 26th 2019, 10:45 am
@HellfireUnit wrote:MFV cannot be any near to Yoda or Sidious, wut?
In raw power he is. It's his inability to control it and his hindered mindset that means KFV is the more dangerous of the two.
DarthAnt66
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on November 26th 2019, 11:11 am
@BreakofDawn wrote:
@DarthAnt66 wrote:Don’t correct when you’re wrong
It's simple logic. At his peak, Vader is stated to be = Sidious. Mustafar Vader is confirmed to be stronger than KFV. If Anakin's peak is Sidious level, and MFV > KFV, ergo KFV isn't = Yoda.

Lightsaber duelist scale  2829155256

Order 66 empowered Palpatine and KFV. "KFV" also encompasses Vader's power-level at the end of the raid, which is functionally the same as MFV pre-Padme's arrival*. The point of "KFV" and "MFV" is to differentiate an empowered, enlightened Vader versus an empowered, unstable Vader. Hyper-distinguishing between KFV, pre-Padme MFV (who you say is with Palpatine), and post-Padme MFV is redundant and ultimately unnecessary. This (incorrect) semantics game runs contrary to the whole point.

(*Vader marches up Temple steps -> Order 66 happens and he kills hundreds of Jedi, grows stronger -> Goes to Mustafar now empowered.)

((Note that given Palpatine's also empowered by Order 66, that doesn't preclude pre-66 Palpatine ~ pre-66 Vader.))


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on November 26th 2019, 11:20 am; edited 2 times in total
MasterCilghal
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on November 26th 2019, 11:18 am
@BreakofDawn wrote:
@MasterCilghal wrote:
@BreakofDawn wrote:Small correction: KFV wasn't > Yoda. Only MFV is ~ Yoda.
Except it’s stated: he had “unparalleled force abilities”
Citation?


Palpatine elevated himself to the position of Emperor, and dispatched Vader as his ultimate enforcer. With his unparalleled Force abilities, Vader swept through the Jedi Temple.
-darth Vader databank
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