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The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier Empty Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier

on September 23rd 2019, 3:32 am
What are the situations in which each of these methods would be used?

It seems like deflecting with a lightsaber is preferred until the lightning reaches a certain intensity or spread, and then it becomes impractical (perhaps because it's too difficult to hold onto it or cover everything onto the blade). Then tuntanimus is probably more effective than barrier because when given the time and opportunity, combatants will tend to choose tutanimus (e.g. Revan attempting it with Vitiate), but I may be wrong on that.

Thoughts?
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
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Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier Empty Re: Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier

on September 23rd 2019, 4:15 am
There's a quote LeGenD had saying that Force barrier was an inefficient defense against Force lightning and that Tutaminis was designed for it.
I Love Science
I Love Science

Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier Empty Re: Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier

on September 23rd 2019, 4:45 am
When contradictions between character behaviors and presumably optimal behaviors when adjusted for knowledge and efficiency arise, given presumption of in-universe consistency to a sufficient resolution, competing rationalizations must be evaluated. There is not a clear evaluation criteria; possible criterium are alignment with aggregate authorial intent and conciseness of reducible physical laws implied with a metric analogous to what could be justified in academic sciences.
Taking the latter approach, it emerges from the apparent physical laws of the Star Wars universe life coming from darwinian processes, which then lends to certain game theoretic assumptions, including that the most optimal characters for highly studied activities such as Force combat would approach a reasonable local maxima in sufficiently available tactics. To that extent, we can observe the preponderance of activities from combatants adjusted for knowledge and efficiency.
Given lower intensities and lower surface areas of lightning attacks, lightsaber deflection appears to be perceived as a more optimal solution, followed by tutanimus and barrier. As intensity and surface area increase, tutanimus and barrier become proportionally more important, with tutanimus retaining the edge up to most observed levels, though one can plausibly extrapolate to a level where coverage area of attack exceeds tutanimus relative to barrier.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
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Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier Empty Re: Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier

on September 23rd 2019, 5:34 am
Lightsaber is the easiest way to block Force Lightning, giving an advantage to low tier Force Wielders but they are rendered useless against powerful foes such as Darth Sidious. Tutaminis in general is developed on absorbing and redirecting the energy henceforth it is more suitable against Force Lightning. Barrier isn't suitable for this kind of attacks as I know, rather serves as a defensive mechanism against projectiles.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier Empty Re: Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier

on September 23rd 2019, 6:08 am
Tol Braga and co. opted for a lightsaber defense as opposed to a Force barrier/deflection even though Vitiate's lightning was spreading all over the place; Mace Windu did the same with Sidious.

_________________
Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier Sheev_sig_3
PeraltaEagle45
PeraltaEagle45

Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier Empty Re: Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier

on September 24th 2019, 3:59 pm
It's probably just personal preference.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier Empty Re: Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier

on September 24th 2019, 4:27 pm
^ The likes of Mace could probably use either tutaminis or a barrier, but opt for a lightsaber because that's what they have to hand, it's almost as effective and their strength lies in saber combat.
IG
IG
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Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier Empty Re: Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier

on September 24th 2019, 4:33 pm
I’m still trying to figure out if ROTS Sidious or Valk has better lightning.

I’m leaning Valk because of his ability to casually oneshot Marr, who had a saber, versus Sidious, who couldn’t break Mace’s saber defense. But Sidious could bend sabers, but I don’t know if Valk can.
Master Azronger
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Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier Empty Re: Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier

on September 25th 2019, 3:46 am
IdrisianGraecus wrote:I’m still trying to figure out if ROTS Sidious or Valk has better lightning.

I’m leaning Valk because of his ability to casually oneshot Marr, who had a saber, versus Sidious, who couldn’t break Mace’s saber defense. But Sidious could bend sabers, but I don’t know if Valk can.

Marr didn't have a lightsaber drawn when Valkorion struck him. Not to mention this is a bit of a bizarre argument, unless you think Marr and Windu have some sort of parity to warrant this comparison. Because I can think of examples like Darth Malgus vs. Aryn Leneer where one has casually overwhelmed the lightsaber defense of the other, and you don't think Malgus can stake a claim for being above Sidious, do you?
IG
IG
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Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier Empty Re: Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier

on September 25th 2019, 7:13 am
No, I’m just wondering because of Marr’s likely superiority to Malgus, coupled with the casual ease that Valk killed him. Marr had the pike, didn’t he? That essentially is a lightsaber on a long stick.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
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Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier Empty Re: Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier

on September 25th 2019, 7:17 am
Marr launched the spear against a Knight. He was unarmed when Vitiate fried him.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
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Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier Empty Re: Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier

on September 25th 2019, 7:18 am
Also Sidious was capable of breaking Mace's defences even though the latter was amped.
IG
IG
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Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier Empty Re: Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier

on September 25th 2019, 7:19 am
Really? Jeez, I have to get a refresher on KOTFE then.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier Empty Re: Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier

on September 25th 2019, 8:56 am
IdrisianGraecus wrote:No, I’m just wondering because of Marr’s likely superiority to Malgus, coupled with the casual ease that Valk killed him. Marr had the pike, didn’t he? That essentially is a lightsaber on a long stick.

No, Marr wasn't armed, and the only way he'd be relevant in a Sheev vs. Valk discussion is if you can establish some sort of connection with those Sheev has fought, which you haven't.
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
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Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier Empty Re: Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier

on September 25th 2019, 1:34 pm
A lightsaber defence is probably more effective tbh.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier Empty Re: Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier

on September 25th 2019, 2:26 pm
Azronger wrote:
IdrisianGraecus wrote:No, I’m just wondering because of Marr’s likely superiority to Malgus, coupled with the casual ease that Valk killed him. Marr had the pike, didn’t he? That essentially is a lightsaber on a long stick.

No, Marr wasn't armed, and the only way he'd be relevant in a Sheev vs. Valk discussion is if you can establish some sort of connection with those Sheev has fought, which you haven't.

As an addendum, Sheev overwhelmed Yoda's lightsaber defense.

Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier 6181589-2607082053-59279

In your mind, overwhelming the lightsaber defense of Darth Marr is evidently a spectacular feat and possibly Valkorion's best given you specifically and predominantly cited it as evidence he's above RotS Sidious. So given I've provided proof of Sidious doing the same to a combatant of exorbitantly higher caliber than Darth Marr, will you stick to your logic and elevate Sidious above Valkorion, @IdrisianGraecus?
KingofBlades
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Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier Empty Re: Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier

on September 25th 2019, 2:36 pm
Sorry to intrude on your discussion, @Azronger and @IdrisianGraecus , but in Valkorion's case, there's no indication that he was at all strained by one shotting Marr, so we can't use this as an approximation of his full power. In Sidious's case he was fighting a virtual equal in Yoda, therefore he would almost certainly be using the full intensity of his lightning. So no accurate conclusion can be drawn in regards to the question Valk v Sheev, by comparing these feats.
IG
IG
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Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier Empty Re: Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier

on September 25th 2019, 2:39 pm
Calm down Az, I was just wondering who’s lightning was greater because of the ease Valk used to beat Marr, as opposed to Sidious being unable to beat Mace going all out with his lightning. I was simply mistaken about the saber.
I have Valk a bit above ROTJ Sidious atm

@KingofBlades: No problem.
DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier Empty Re: Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier

on September 25th 2019, 2:44 pm
@Azronger

Sheev overwhelmed Yoda's lightsaber defense.

That comic might be following the script version. If so, those panels are separated by some period of time. Palpatine catches Yoda in mid-air. 

Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier 6181589-2607082053-59279

YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.

YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod. PALPATINE reaches out with one hand, and a Senate pod is released from its mooring and heads toward the Podium. PALPATINE uses the Force to hurl pod after pod at YODA, who ducks and jumps from one flying pod to another.

YODA leaps away from the pods. He uses the Force to hold one pod suspended in the air. The pod spins and YODA throws it back at PALPATINE, who leaps away at the last moment.

YODA leaps after him, but PALPATINE quickly turns and aims the full force of his energy bolts at the tiny green Jedi, catching him in mid-air and throwing him back hard against the Podium. The force causes YODA to drop his lightsaber. YODA blocks the lightning and throws PALPATINE backwards off the podium. YODA is knocked off the Podium and falls several hundred feet to the base of the Podium. PALPATINE follows in his pod, searching for YODA.


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on September 25th 2019, 2:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier Empty Re: Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier

on September 25th 2019, 2:47 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:Sorry to intrude on your discussion, @Azronger and @IdrisianGraecus , but in Valkorion's case, there's no indication that he was at all strained by one shotting Marr, so we can't use this as an approximation of his full power. In Sidious's case he was fighting a virtual equal in Yoda, therefore he would almost certainly be using the full intensity of his lightning. So no accurate conclusion can be drawn in regards to the question Valk v Sheev, by comparing these feats.

Not being strained ≠ not using your full power. There's no indication Sidious was strained by the exertion either despite operating at his maximum capacity.

But regardless, I'm well aware you can't draw a comparison here, much like you can't with Mace and Marr. I was simply turning Idrisian's logic against him.
Master Azronger
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Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier Empty Re: Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier

on September 25th 2019, 2:48 pm
IdrisianGraecus wrote:Calm down Az, I was just wondering who’s lightning was greater because of the ease Valk used to beat Marr, as opposed to Sidious being unable to beat Mace going all out with his lightning. I was simply mistaken about the saber.
I have Valk a bit above ROTJ Sidious atm

@KingofBlades: No problem.

Where did I lose my temper? And can you answer my question regarding Yoda?
Master Azronger
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Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier Empty Re: Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier

on September 25th 2019, 2:52 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:@Azronger

Sheev overwhelmed Yoda's lightsaber defense.

That comic might be following the script version. If so, those panels are separated by some period of time. Palpatine catches Yoda in mid-air. 

Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier 6181589-2607082053-59279

YODA unleashes a ferocious assault on PALPATINE, causing him to almost go over the edge. The Dark Lord drops his lightsaber but recovers with a BLAST OF ENERGY from his hands that surrounds YODA. YODA is deflecting the Sith Lord's lightning bolts.

The energy bolts begin to arc back on the Emperor. It looks as if the Dark Lord is doomed.

YODA: Destroy you I will, just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.

YODA jumps to a lower Senate Pod. PALPATINE reaches out with one hand, and a Senate pod is released from its mooring and heads toward the Podium. PALPATINE uses the Force to hurl pod after pod at YODA, who ducks and jumps from one flying pod to another.

YODA leaps away from the pods. He uses the Force to hold one pod suspended in the air. The pod spins and YODA throws it back at PALPATINE, who leaps away at the last moment.

YODA leaps after him, but PALPATINE quickly turns and aims the full force of his energy bolts at the tiny green Jedi, catching him in mid-air and throwing him back hard against the Podium. The force causes YODA to drop his lightsaber. YODA blocks the lightning and throws PALPATINE backwards off the podium. YODA is knocked off the Podium and falls several hundred feet to the base of the Podium. PALPATINE follows in his pod, searching for YODA.

Nah, the script omits details as well. The junior novelization depicts the full sequence:

Force lightning spat from the Emperor’s gray fingers, surrounding Yoda in a blue nimbus. But Yoda had faced Force lightning before. To deflect the first bolts, he had to stop his intended strike at the Emperor. Once his initial surprise was over, he reached out to the living Force. The lightning bent, arcing back toward the Emperor.

“Destroy you, I will,” Yoda said grimly. “Just as Master Kenobi, your apprentice will destroy.”

The Sith Lord only redoubled his attack. Hurling Force lightning, the Emperor backed away, to the very edge of the platform. Following him was like walking against hurricane winds. Never had Yoda faced one so strong in the dark side. Before he came within reach, a particularly strong blast knocked Yoda out of the pod.


Star Wars: Episode III - Revenge of the Sith junior novelization

Yoda is successful at repelling the bolts until Palpatine increases the potency of his attack, at which point it becomes too much for Yoda and he's flung out of the podium.
DarthAnt66
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on September 25th 2019, 2:55 pm
Fair, but Yoda still has his lightsaber even after being knocked off per the junior novelization. That blast just causes a loss of footing.
Master Azronger
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on September 25th 2019, 3:00 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:Fair, but Yoda still has his lightsaber even after being knocked off per the junior novelization. That blast just causes a loss of footing.

Yeah, but the point was that Yoda couldn't hold back Palpatine's power with a lightsaber. That he managed to hold onto his weapon is beside that point.
DarthAnt66
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Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier Empty Re: Deflecting lightning: lightsaber vs. tutanimus vs. barrier

on September 25th 2019, 3:02 pm
Well, Yoda did hold back Palpatine's power, he just slid backward and fell off the pod doing it. If you block a punch but still fall over due to the force, you still blocked it.
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