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SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 Empty Re: SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis)

on October 10th 2019, 9:02 pm
Message reputation : 100% (6 votes)
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I. Response and Rebuttals

  1. Physical Traits

    A. Lightsaber-proof Beskar
    IdrisianGraecus wrote:And Kun is certainly not lacking in feats of strength, his ability to break through thick walls of beskar is impressive, given that beskar is one of the few materials in the galaxy that is lightsaber-proof.

    This feat would be impressive if it were a display of Kun's personal power, however I am of the position that it was not.

    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 4249212-busts%20mando%20iron
    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 4249213-busts%20mando%20iron2
    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 4249214-busts%20mando%20iron3

    As you can see in the images, Kun's initial strike with his lightsaber fails to penetrate the beskar barrier. His response to his failure is to further increase the intensity of his lightsaber, but in the process of this he "feels a sudden chill". After Kun feels the "chill", he "senses a power moving around him...a power that wants to help him". The text seems to imply that this feat wasn't achieved purely through Kun's power, but rather this power that he felt was Freedon Nadd assisting him. The power in question wanted to "help him", implying that the power was not his own and the only other possible power in the vicinity would be Freedon Nadd who has been locked away in a tomb for hundreds of years. It would logically follow given Nadd's desire to return to his earthly state that he would aid Kun in breaking the beskar in order to enlist the help of Kun to help return himself to his former power. Considering what Nadd was able to do to Kun , I think it makes it even more clear that this feat was aided by Nadd. Also, given your claim that beskar is "lightsaber-proof", how do you suppose Kun went about destroying the barrier? I'm not necessarily claiming that beskar is not "lightsaber-proof", rather I'm curious as to how you think he went about destroying the barrier since he would have no other means to go about penetrating it.

    B. Lightspeed!Sylvar
    IdrisianGraecus wrote:Exar's speed is nothing to laugh at either, as he's able to ragdoll a bloodlusted Sylvar
    Which is especially impressive because Sylvar is able to move so fast that Nomi Sunrider, who's superior to a meditation sphere amped Aleema Keto, can't even react her.

    Your entire basis for the impressiveness of Kun dispatching Sylvar lies upon Nomi Sunrider "not being able to react to her" which is faulty at its core. Nomi was not engaged in combat with Sylvar or even aware that she was on the battlefield and was instead focused on Vima who had just been snatched by a droid:

    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 HbbeoTr

    You could make the argument that Sylvar reacted to the kidnapping faster than Nomi was able to therefore implying that Sylvar is faster than Nomi, but we have no reference as to when Sylvar launched her attack. Sylvar could have already been on her way to kill the droid before the kidnapping and we wouldn't know since her approach is happening from off-frame. Also, you failed to establish why Nomi Sunrider>Aleema Keto is impressive for Nomi.

    C. Beskar-tier Durability
    IdrisianGraecus wrote:Kun also has amazing durability, while not at the level of some of the giants in this category, he's able to survive his bones being broken in hundreds of locations.

    Kun's durability here won't be much use for him, given who the Outlander has defeated and their respective durability feats. To list a few:

    - Malgus who tanked a multi-fleet level explosion after being dispatched. Both the Republic and Imperial fleets as well as Malgus' where fighting outside of the space station and the blast was intended to destroy all of them.
    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 MX0uTAp
    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 Tiy5EzY
    Source: https://torcommunity.com/database/conversation/Wa8BZSF/cnvlocationflashpointsharedilummultidarth_malgus/

    - Arcann who was able to tank multiple lightsaber strikes to the chest here and here as well as a huge piece of metal from the ceiling of a ship . He was also able to resist Valkorion's lightning that was being channeled through the Outlander's body. Earlier on in the story in KOTFE Chapter I we see Arcann tank a blast similar to the one that oneshotted Darth Marr , who was considered to be the foremost member of the Dark Council who were considered to be the most powerful Sith in the galaxy ahead of millions of over Sith, as well possibly even being beyond the likes of ROTHC Emperor's Wrath and ROTHC Darth Nox and at a minimum their equal, as his abilities were stated to be "second to none" . This is quite impressive given that the Emperor's Wrath was chosen over "millions of the galaxy's most powerful Sith" to be the Emperor's personal executioner:
    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 NnBPv0k
    Source: SWTOR Encyclopedia

    and Darth Nox who "utterly destroys" a fellow Dark Council member:
    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 MLbZrnA
    Source: SWTOR Encyclopedia


    - Vaylin who tanked a hyperdrive explosion:
    A Mother's Hope wrote:A shrill whine rose like a scream: the sound of pressurized coolant spewing from a punctured hyperdrive. Senya had just long enough to register what had happened before the damaged hyperdrive exploded.

    She came to a few seconds later, groggy, disoriented and with her ears ringing. The blast had thrown her twenty meters; tiny bits of twisted, melted metal that had once been the hull of the ship lay all around her. Forcing herself to her hands and knees, Senya turned her head from side to side, looking for Vaylin. But all she saw was smoke and flame; the fires had spread to consume the entire camp.

    Arcann!

    Somehow Senya rose unsteadily to her feet, then set off in a stumbling run back towards her ship and her son. As the flames fell farther and farther behind her, her head slowly cleared. Her thoughts briefly turned to the fallen knights, consumed by the funeral pyre that had once been their camp. They'd risked their lives to help her, and Vaylin had slaughtered them all.

    She and Arcann were alone again. No allies. Nowhere to turn. But she was still alive… somehow.

    The blast should have vaporized me.

    There was only one explanation for her survival: Vaylin must have used the Force to shield them both from the worst of the explosion.

    Vaylin was also capable of resisting energies that had the ability to ash Nathema Zealots. Nathema zealots were noted to be "powerful Force-sensitives". She also took a blaster bolt to the back while defenseless which seemingly did no harm:
    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 5763978-0940450260-3v2db

  2. Force Powers & Fighting Skill

    A. Ghostbusters
    IdrisianGraecus wrote:After turning to the dark side, Kun betrays his master, Freedon Nadd & destroys him with a full powered Force Blast.
    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 4292511-kun%20banishes%20nadd


    And this is impressive because at this point, Kun is worthy of the "legacy of the Sith", whereas Nadd was not. Nadd's own powers were also extraordinary, given that he had grown far more powerful than his master, Naga Sadow, before killing him, and then proceeded to grow for another 100 years. 

    Freedon Nadd had been a Jedi who turned to the dark side as the apprentice of Naga Sadow, the former ruler of the ancient Sith Empire. Sadow's power had been so great, it had allowed him to survive for six centuries, fueled by the energies of the dark side.
    Source: Rule Of Two

    Eventually, the apprentice became far more powerful than the teacher...
    Source: Official Fact File 90

    And Sadow was no slouch either, as when he was just a spirit, he was capable of telekinetically ragdolling the likes of a post SoR Darth Nox, one of the few characters that may have been the Outlander. 

    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 4412737-4215696458-vb0qx

    Your thesis here is quite comedic to be frank. Firstly, you're suggesting that spirit Nadd is comparable to his corporeal form when that is blatantly not the case as per own source, as outlined by Nadd saying "I am hungry to reacquire flesh and life and power", implying that his spirit self wasn't quite up to par with his physical self. Following this, we cannot make direct claims relating spirit Nadd to Naga Sadow since we know that Nadd defeated Sadow while they were both in their physical forms. Therefore, we cannot make claims about Kun being superior to a physical Freedon Nadd or a physical Naga Sadow based off of what you have provided since we only see Kun defeat a spirit Nadd. Secondly, the notion that the spirit of Naga Sadow "ragdolled" a defenseless Outlander therefore Naga Sadow >>> Outlander is something only the most ancient of powers could comprehend, for its logic is stunningly sublime. Seriously though, getting knocked back by a telekinetic blast while defenseless does not indicate any form of inferiority. There is actually a direct example of this, where Malgus Force pushes a defenseless Outlander back yet still loses the fight. You should also note that I am representing the HoT version of the Outlander...not Nox, so you probably shouldn't have used Nox in your argument. Also, you should check out the blog @DarthAnt66 wrote about Force barriers and why piercing a lesser Force shield isn't necessarily indicative of superiority over another.

    B. Derriphan-class Evidence and Count Dooku...I guess?
    IdrisianGraecus wrote:And Kun's TK is also great, given that he was able to lift Derriphan-class Battleships out of the depths of a massive temple, and deems it an unworthy display of his new powers. 

    Though all of the Derriphan-class battleships were thought to be destroyed in the Great Hyperspace War, at least one survived. The ship, belonging to Naga Sadow, was buried on Yavin 4. During the Great Sith War, Exar Kun would raise the ship from the planet and put it back to service, similar to the way Darth Nihilus would raise the Ravager from the ruined surface of Malachor V.
    Source: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

    As the guide says, this feat is rather similar to Nihilus raising the Ravager, which is also one of the more impressive TK feats in the mythos, given Nihilus ripped the Ravager from miles beneath Malachor.

    Also, Dooku had thrown this class of ship when fighting Kenobi and Skywalker upon Korriban

    They were nearing the end of the hangar. He sensed it rather than saw it. The corroded vehicles were more numerous now, lined up like dark, giant phantoms.

    Like phantoms..

    Phantoms that move…

    Obi-Wan wrenched his gaze away. He could have sworn the ancient ships were moving.

    Then he knew.

    "This way!" he yelled, as the first vehicle suddenly flipped over. It would have crushed them if Obi-Wan hadn't dashed to the side with Anakin on his heels. He flattened himself against the wall as another vehicle moved, its jagged wing a lethal weapon, capable of slicing them to ribbons. A cruiser suddenly zoomed toward the wall, straight at them.

    "Drop!" Anakin and Obi-Wan hit the floor, hugging the stones as the cruiser passed over them and smashed into the wall.

    Vehicle parts began to fall like rain. The crashes were deafening.

    They leaped, twisted, and dived to avoid them, using the Force to deflect them when they could. Finally they came to rest in the shadow of one of the giant statues. Obi-Wan leaned against a clawed foot and squinted into the darkness.

    He could not see the Sith, but he felt the Sith's amusement, his triumph.

    The vehicles now smashed into one another, creating a solid mass of screaming metal, effectively blocking them from the front of the hangar.
    Source: Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown

    You've failed to provide any evidence of Nihilus or Kun using telekinesis to lift the ships, rather you have just stated something to be true without providing any quotes or screenshots. The only quote that you provided stated that Kun recommissioned his ship in a similar fashion to how Nihilus recommissioned the Ravager, but never provided evidence for Nihilus using TK. Don't cite me the Peña quote as that is an author's opinion, not an authoritative statement. Also, I'm not exactly sure what you are trying to accomplish with the Dooku quote. If you are trying to draw parity between Kun and Dooku, then I'm not sure how that would help you in your argument since that presupposes Dooku having some type of superiority over the Outlander which you would need to provide reasoning for.

    C. Shirtless!Ulic
    IdrisianGraecus wrote:When going to confront Ulic Qel Droma, Exar shrugs off Aleema Keto's attacks, blasts her unconscious, and proceeds to engage in a duel with an enraged Ulic, a duel that would go on for hours. 

    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 4249304-screenshot%202014-11-30%20at%2000.00.53
    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 4249305-screenshot%202014-11-30%20at%2000.01.12
    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 4249306-screenshot%202014-11-30%20at%2000.01.24
    Exar Kun and Ulic fought, but they were too evenly matched for either to gain the upper hand. Their battle might have gone on for hours but for the macabre manifestation of a host of Sith spirits, led by the shade of Marka Ragnos.
    Source: Dark Side Sourcebook

    Exar and Ulic proceeded to vanish for years, gaining vast power. 

    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 6558255-6679186408-droma

    Cool, but you didn't provide any reasons for why Kun blasting Aleema or matching Ulic is something noteworthy or how this "vast power" that Kun acquired actually helps him.

    D. THON, an Old Man, and a Dusty Artifact
    IdrisianGraecus wrote:Exar Kun successfully shrouds his Force presence from all the Jedi in the Great Library of Ossus; including Odan-Urr and Nomi Sunrider. Before telekinetically tearing a Sith holocron from Urr's telekinetic grasp, then attacking Odan-Urr; resisting his Sever Force attack, before killing him in turn. All on an incredibly strong light side nexus:


    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 4292466-concealment

    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 4703892-star%20wars%20omnibus%20-%20tales%20of%20the%20jedi%20vol%2002%20%282008%29%20%28digital-empire%29%20219

    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 4249301-kun%20kills%20odan-urr3

    Odan Urr is one of the most powerful Jedi alive at this point, compared to being the "Mace Windu and Yoda" of his time, along with Vodo Siosk-Baas.

    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 4703759-accolade2

    And many of the other masters were incredibly powerful, like Thon, a master that managed to contain the Sith spirits of Ambria, who were so powerful that they might have consumed the whole sector. 
    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 7017579-thonambria

    At Ossus, Kun gains what was likely the most powerful Sith Holocron ever made, the Dark Holocron. 

    The most powerful Sith Holocron contained Sith teachings and histories that covered some hundred thousand years.
    Source: The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology

    The showing you have provided for Thon can either range from nothing of importance to extremely impressive depending on interpretation. We don't know if these spirits are fodder or not since no basis for their power has been established other than they "threatened to consume the entire sector" and that within itself doesn't have much meaning, given we don't know the size of said sector or if there is even anything within the sector that would provide resistance or if it is just empty space. Sector's can range in size from something as small as a section of a city to millions of stars:
    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 DxYTxxq
    Source: Star Wars: Attack of the Clones Incredible Cross-Sections


    Additionally, even though you didn't state this, you could make the argument that the spirits were powerful due to the planets rejuvenation after they were locked away implying their power was planetary level. However, the Outlander scales above Act III Vitiate who was capable of maintaining the void on Nathema which disappeared after his death leading to life appearing again on the planet, so I'm not sure that's the route you want to take. Following all of this, scaling the feat to Odan does not have much relevance and therefore you have not provided any reasons for why being one of the "Yoda's/Mace's" of his era is particularly impressive, since this comment is speaking to Odan relative to his era and you have provided no basis as to whether this era of Jedi is at all noteworthy. Therefore, making the claim that Kun defeating Odan is an impressive feat also falls apart. As for the holocron, you didn't state why this would help Kun at all. All we know is based off of what you have provided is that he has it in his possession.

    E. UNSTOPPABLE (virtually)
    IdrisianGraecus wrote:And Kun is now described as "unstoppable in lightsaber combat" 

    Some unique objects are invariably associated with their remarkable owners. The unusual double-bladed lightsaber of the fallen Jedi Exar Kun is one such artifact. This weapon as distinctive and dangerous as its builder, the Dark Lord of the Sith, who initiated the great Sith War and nearly toppled the Old Republic.

    [...]

    As the battle against the Jedi escalated, Kun altered his normal lightsaber into a more deadly and dangerous weapon. Kun added a second emitter matrix on the opposite end of the handgrip, allowing him to release two blue-white blades simultaneously. The dark Jedi wielded the saber much as he would a quarterstaff, using one blade to block incoming attacks, then quickly spinning the handgrip to use the second blade to strike a killing blow against his opponent.

    Customized controls allowed him to adjust each blade's length from half a meter to one and a half meters. Panels controlled each blade's intensity: at its highest setting, a blade was like any other lightsaber, with the ability to cut through dense materials such as armor plating and durasteel with virtually no resistance. At the lowest power setting, a blade became a simple shaft of light, delivering no damage and providing no resistance against incoming lightsaber attacks. By abruptly shortening a blade or dropping it to the lowest power setting, Kun tricked his opponents into overextending themselves during attacks, giving him an opportunity for a dealy counterstrike. By coupling these tactics with his Force abilities to predict the actions of his opponents, Kun became virtually unstoppable in combat.
    Source: The Essential Guide to Weapons and Technology

    I mean...that's cool and all but being "virtually unstoppable" doesn't seem to mean much in the context of Star Wars. For example:

    Anakin (spoiler: he was stopped)
    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 WUiXYE2
    Source: ROTS Novelization

    Terentek (spoiler: lol)
    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 Ecxx46x
    Source: SWTOR Codex

    Sith Empire (spoiler: Uh yeah I think you know what happened to them)
    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 OpEDeSR
    Source: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide

    You get the point. It's just hyperbole and shouldn't be taken as anything other than that. Dunno why I even wasted characters on this.

    F. Kun > Senate = ROTS Sidious
    IdrisianGraecus wrote:And Exar manages to walk into the Senate, and freeze every single person in the room

    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 4249330-sith%20spell%20on%20senate

    And then he ragdolls Sylvar, who I've already covered, and proceeds to kill his former master, Vodo Siosk-Baas

    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 4249262-rematch4
    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 4249263-rematch5
    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 4249264-rematch6
    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 4249265-rematch7
    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 4249266-rematch8

    Exar Kun's power dwarfed Vodo's despite maintaining the spell on thousands, if not tens of thousands of Senators:

    Power of the Jedi Sourcebook wrote:Ulic’s trial was interrupted by Exar Kun, who met his former Master face to face for the first time since his long descent into darkness. The two fought, and Vodo-Siosk Baas was no match for Exar Kun’s double-bladed lightsaber and deep reserve of dark side power. Vodo-Siosk perished, slain by his former apprentice.

    This is incredible, given that Vodo had telekinetically disarmed a prepared Ulic and placed a block on Ulic's immense power, which dwarfed the combined strength of Nomi Sunrider, Tott Doneeta, Cay Qel-Droma and others prior to several years of Ulic gaining tremendous powers:


    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 4703555-star%20wars%20omnibus%20-%20tales%20of%20the%20jedi%20vol%2002%20%282008%29%20%28digital-empire%29%20248

    A few things here, firstly Kun performing TP on the Senate is unquantifiable given that we have no indication of how many people were in the room based on what you have provided. You made the claim that there were "thousands, if not tens of thousands of Senators" in the room but did not provide any evidence. Also, Kun didn't even TP the Jedi that were standing guard, he just TP'd fodder which is far less impressive than what Lord Vivicar/Terrak Morrhage (who the Outlander scales off of) was capable of given that he was  TP'ing hundreds of Jedi at once and Jedi are talented and trained in the ways of telepathy:
    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 ExgRuAY
    Source: Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 Dhwrcid
    Source: Yareal Poof's speech from Jedi vs. Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force

    while random Senate members are probably not, or at least there is no evidence indicating that to be so to my knowledge. I will go into further detail on the Vivicar argument in a later post once I am granted more characters. Also, again you have failed to prove why defeating Vodo is impressive since you are scaling him off of Ulic and transitively Sunrider, Tott Doneeta, Cay Qel-Droma because Ulic "dwarfed the combined strength of Nomi Sunrider, Tott Doneeta, Cay Qel-Droma" which you provided no evidence of. You also failed to explain why such an accolade should be deemed impressive for Ulic.

    G. A Thuletaly Real Feat
    IdrisianGraecus wrote:At one point, Kun causes vast quantities of dark side corruption on Thule, a giant planet, rivalling Vitiate's effect on Dromund Kaas.

    During the height of the Great Sith War, Thule served as a base of operations for the Sith Warriors, and much of the planet's crust became imbued with the residue of the dark side of the Force.
    Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

    This is just disingenuous...you are ascribing a feat to Kun that is obviously not his in order to draw parity between him and Vitiate. Nowhere does it state that Kun was directly responsible for this, your quote only implies that the presence of the Brotherhood caused " the planet's crust became imbued with the residue of the dark side of the Force".

    H. Kun Fights A Tree...And Loses

    IdrisianGraecus wrote:Exar attacks Ossus, finally meeting his match in the form of the Jedi Ood Bnar, drawing upon the complete power of the planet Ossus

    Ood resists Kun's attempts to steal the lightsabers by undergoing a final metamorphosis, plunging roots into the ground and driving Kun back with a blast of power drawn from the depths of Ossus.
    Source: Tales of the Jedi: Dark Lords of the Sith #6

    Ossus itself was so powerful that it had literally stopped the planet from being destroyed by 10 supernovas.

    Ossus still bears the scars of the Cron Supernova: its surface is a seared wasteland of rock and sand. But even this degree of desolation is shockingly mild; that the planet was not rendered into a charred ball of molten rock, or even obliterated completely, is nothing short of miraculous.

    Little academic work has been put forward to explain this unlikely survival; only conjecture. The initial cause of the supernova was unnatural; perhaps this explains the unnatural results? Ossus was a stronghold of the Jedi; does the inherent life force of such a place make it more resistant to destruction? Could the unique astrophysical structure of the Adega system where Ossus is found have played a role?

    Regardless of the reasons, the continued survival of Ossus offers the promise that its ancient mysteries may one day be unlocked.
    Source: The Unlikely Survival of Ossus Codex Entry

    Ood Bnar survived until the New Republic Era, where he obliterates Executor Sedriss

    Several thousand years later on the planet Ossus, Bnar reawakened to help save Jem Ysanna, a young woman with powers in the Force. He ultimately sacrificed himself to destroy the evil Imperial Military Executor Sedriss.

    ****

    The Executor was destroyed by the power of an ancient Jedi, Ood Bnar
    Source: The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

    Congratulations, you have established Kun to be sub-Sedriss.

    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 IkiotV3
    Source: New Essential Guide to Characters/@Gᴏᴀᴛ

    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 Image0
    Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File #119/@Gᴏᴀᴛ

    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 PaKx4rb

    I. Sedriss Gets Ragdolled
    IdrisianGraecus wrote:And Sedriss might have been able to beat Luke Skywalker, had it been a battle between the two.

    Sedriss and Vill Goir met Luke Skywalker and recent Jedi recruit kam Solusar on the plains of Ossus. Had it been merely a contest between dark side adepts and Jedi, Sedriss might have been victorious.
    Source: Handbook 3: Dark Empire

    He's also canonically more powerful than the likes of Jerec

    Perhaps the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader, Executor Sedriss remained loyal to the Emperor after the death of his clone over the Rebel's Pinnacle Base
    Source: Handbook 3: Dark Empire

    You do realize that the 1v1 confrontation between Sedriss and Luke ends in Luke decisively winning right?

    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 ZBslvYd

    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 ExuAv02

    In the audio version the fight starts at 15:12 and ends at 15:33 when Sedriss begins the dialogue in the second image so the fight only lasts 21 seconds before Luke dispatches him. Also, per your own quote Darth Vader > Sedriss and we know that DE Luke > ROTJ Luke >= ROTJ Vader so DE Luke > ROTJ Luke >= ROTJ Vader > Sedriss. Following this, we can see that DE Luke > ROTJ Luke >= ROTJ Vader > Sedriss ~ Ood > TOTJ Kun.

    J. Sheev's Summer Vacation
    IdrisianGraecus wrote:Shortly after A New Hope, Sidious travels to Korriban, and is nearly killed by the combined might of all of the Sith Spirits there, all of whom are most likely in ragdoll territory for Kun, establishing him as, at the very least, near Palpatine's tier, if not in it.

    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 Screen30

    SS - Exar Kun (IdrisianGraecus) vs. the Outlander (Praxis) - Page 2 2017-10-29

    Just...what? I don't think you actually even believe this to be true. You didn't substantiate why the spirits on Korriban are in "ragdoll territory" for Kun, and even if that were true then how does that translate to being able to defeat the "combined might" of all of them at once?

    K. Spirit Kun
    IdrisianGraecus wrote:Exar Kun passed the millennia in uneasy slumber.
    A few scant years later, Kun is brought sharply awake by the arrival of not one or two, but a dozen humans blazing with the power he needed to live again. Eagerly but cautiously, Kun observes each arrival, probing for weaknesses and the power he needs to restore his lost reserves of energy. For a time, he is able to subside by feeding on their residual energy, but soon he will need worshippers if he is to grow more active. With a nucleus of followers to provide him energy-providing anger and fear, Kun will have enough power to escape his exile and take on human form. To his surprise, Kun recognizes the leader to be the same man who had visited Yavin Four years earlier, now much more powerful in the Force. Too powerful, for the moment, for Kun to tackle.
    Kun finds Gantoris, strong-willed and impatient to learn, to be a more promising first candidate. He easily seduces Gantoris in the same manner that Nadd had seduced him—by promising forbidden knowledge and the truly powerful Jedi secrets Gantoris cannot wait to learn. Carefully building up and feeding on the anger of his first apprentice, Kun grows in power. Soon he feels confident to make an attempt to subvert Luke, knowing that if he can sway the teacher, the students will all follow. Kun, posing as Anakin Skywalker, appears to Luke and attempts to pull him toward the forbidden Sith teachings by tempting him to use Sith power to seize control of the New Republic and destroy the Empire. Realizing that this shade is not that of his father, Luke rejects the offer.
    Enraged and drained, Kun returns to Gantoris. Desperate for more energy, he goads Gantoris to new heights of anger by showing him the Eol Sha colonists dying on Dantooine. Gantoris is pushed too far, however, and turns on his Sith master. Realizing that Gantoris is no longer his, Kun utterly drains him to provide himself a reserve of energy to last until he can subvert more students.
    Kun has just begun edging in on Streen when Kyp Durron arrives at the Jedi Academy. Kun immediately senses in the young man his ideal subject. Like Gantoris, Kyp is strong-willed and impatient to learn. Moreover, he is far more powerful than the Eol Sha leader, and young enough to be overconfident and naive.
    Over a number of weeks, Kun slowly bends Kyp to his will, and begins to augment his power. He grows very powerful on Kyp's hate, and soon his hold on Kyp is so complete that he can send Kyp beyond the planet to do his will and still retain control over his subject. Ultimately, he has Kyp return to Yavin Four and helps him reclaim the Sun Crusher. He also bolsters Kyp's talents to allow him to defeat Luke and place him in a coma.
    Source: Jedi Academy Sourcebook

    When Kun and Kyp attack him together, Luke is powerless to resist, and all of his Jedi techniques and training fail him.

    Kyp made a dismissive gesture with one hand, and a sudden wave of dark ripples splashed across the air like the shock front of a concussion grenade. Luke stumbled backward. The lightsaber turned cold in his hand. Frost crystals grew in feathery patterns around the handle. At the core of the brilliant green blade a shadow appeared, a black disease rotting away the purity of the beam. The humming blade sputtered, sounding like a sickly cough. The black taint rapidly grew stronger, swallowing up the green beam. With a frizzle of sparks Luke’s lightsaber died.
    Trying to control his growing fear, Luke felt a sudden brush of cold behind him. He turned to see a black, hooded silhouette—the image that had impersonated Anakin Skywalker in Luke’s nightmare…the dark man who had lured Gantoris into a devastating loss of control.
    Kyp’s voice came as if from a great distance. “At last, Master Skywalker, you can meet my mentor—Exar Kun.”
    Luke dropped his useless lightsaber and crouched. His every muscle suddenly coiled and tensed. He rallied all the powers of the Force around him, seeking any defensive tactic. With the Sun Crusher looming behind him, Kyp stretched out both hands and blasted Luke with lightning bolts like black cracks in the Force. Dark tendrils rose up from the gaps in the temple flagstones, fanged, illusionary vipers that struck at him from all sides. Luke cried out and tried to strike back, but the shadows of Exar Kun joined the attack, adding more deadly force. The ancient Dark Lord of the Sith lashed out with waves of blackness, driving long icicles of frozen poison into Luke’s body.
    He thrashed, but felt helpless. To lose control to anger and desperation would be as great a failure as if he did nothing at all. Luke called upon the powers that Yoda and Obi-Wan had taught him—but everything he did, every skillful technique, failed utterly.
    Source: Jedi Academy Vol.2 Dark Apprentice

    And Kun binds Luke's spirit outside of his body, which only ceases once Kun's spirit is defeated

    Later, Jacen joined forces with the other Jedi students in destroying Exar Kun's spirit forever and freeing Luke's spirit.

    ****

    Later she became one of Skywalker's Jedi candidates and joined his other Jedi students on Yavin IV in defeating the spirit of Dark Lord Exar Kun, protecting Luke's body and freeing his spirit.
    Source: Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia

    Many dismiss Kun's utter annihilation of Luke given that it was technically a 'shared feat' between him and Kyp, but Kun's mere aid to Kyp makes Kyp amped by a focal point's powers seem 'feeble' in comparison

    “Exar Kun, help me,” Kyp said, closing his eyes.
    He reached out with his mind, following the paths of the Force that led to every object in the universe, drawing power from the cosmic focal point of the Massassi temple. He searched, sending his thoughts like a probe deep into the storm systems of the gas giant. Behind him, Kyp felt the black-ice power of Exar Kun arise, tapping into him and reinforcing his abilities. His own feeble exploratory touch suddenly plunged forward like a blaster bolt. Kyp felt larger, a part of the jungle moon, then a part of the entire planetary system, until he burrowed into the heart of the gas giant itself.The Sun Crusher approached like a long, sharp thorn of crystalline alloy, cruising upright on its long axis. The toroidal resonance-torpedo launcher hung at the bottom of the long hook. It looked beautiful. The Sun Crusher descended through the jungle moon’s atmosphere, straight down—like a spike to impale the Great Temple. Kyp controlled it, slowed its descent, until the superweapon hovered to a stop, suspended in front of him.
    As the sky brightened with planetrise, the alloy hull of the Sun Crusher seemed as pristine as a firefacet gem, scoured of all oxidation and debris by the intense temperatures and pressures at the core of Yavin. The Sun Crusher looked clean, and deadly, and ready for him.
    “Thank you, Exar Kun,” Kyp whispered.
    Source: Jedi Academy Vol.2 Dark Apprentice

    This whole section is meaningless until you establish TOTJ Kun > JA Kun since you are debating for Kun as of TOTJ. If you are able to do that then I will address your points as I don't want to waste characters on something that serves no function for what you are arguing for. Actually, you seem to believe that JA Kun > JA Luke which ironically works against you here since we have established DE Luke > ROTJ Luke >= ROTJ Vader > Sedriss ~ Ood > TOTJ Kun and we know JA Luke > DE Luke which leads to JA Kun > JA Luke > DE Luke > ROTJ Luke >= ROTJ Vader > Sedriss ~ Ood > TOTJ Kun. Huh, that's a bit awkward for you isn't it?

  3. Scalings

    A. Kun >>>>> Nadd >>>>> Sadow >>> SoR Nox
    IdrisianGraecus wrote:What makes this rather impressive is the fact that Nox by SoR doesn't really show much improvement between the expansion and KOTFE, and during KOTFE Chapter 6, when the Outlander is ragdolled by Arcann, they are still likely suffering the effects of carbonite poisoning, meaning that they are still hindered. So if Nox > KOTFE Chapter 6 Outlander, then Kun is a few ragdoll tiers above them.

    Refer to section 2A. Additionally, the Outlander fights Arcann in Chapter 8, not Chapter 6 and you have provided no proof for the Outlander being hindered during his first fight with Arcann so you have no basis for making the claim "Nox > KOTFE Chapter 6 Outlander". Also, as I mentioned earlier in my post, the Outlander in the context of this debate is the Hero of Tython so I'm not sure where the use of Nox is coming from.

    B. Kun >>>>> Ood >>>>>>>> Sedriss > Jerec, and Sedriss = DE Luke.

    Refer to sections 2H and 2I.

    C. Kun >>>>> Kun's Spirit >>>> Kun's aid >>>>>>>> Kyp. Kun's Spirit + Kyp >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Luke

    Refer to 2K.


II. Conclusion

In my next post, I plan to go into a lot more detail on the Outlander and why they win since I will have a lot more characters to work with. Also, please try to be original and don't just copy and paste another member's respect thread again for your next post. Your move, @IdrisianGraecus.
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on October 10th 2019, 9:05 pm
This is my first post in a formal debating format, so its possible my formatting/pictures/links could be messed up so just let me know if anything is broken and I will try and fix it. Also, me and Idrisian had a short discussion and decided to remove the character limit for posts, so this post is a little bit over the initial cap of 10,000 characters but I tried to keep it as close as possible in order to make it fair since Idrisian was working under the cap.
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on October 10th 2019, 10:04 pm
xolthol
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on October 10th 2019, 11:46 pm
@Praxis Interresting post.
MasterCilghal
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on October 11th 2019, 6:22 am
Excellent post Praxis. You exceeded my expectations

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on October 11th 2019, 6:44 am
Good job, I’ll try to have it up soon, but no promises.
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on October 11th 2019, 12:45 pm
@MasterCilghal wrote:Excellent post Praxis. You exceeded my expectations
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on October 11th 2019, 3:05 pm
Damn, Praxis Praxed it with expert Praxcision.
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on October 11th 2019, 3:10 pm
StrangerThingsFan77 wrote:Damn, Praxis Praxed it with expert Praxcision.

Best compliment I could have asked for tbh.
MasterCilghal
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on October 11th 2019, 3:29 pm
The THON disrespect though :Nyagax:

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on October 11th 2019, 3:36 pm
Great post, Praxis.

Some of this was just IG3 lining up his ducks in a row for a buckshot from a sawed off, though.
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on October 12th 2019, 8:44 am
Lol. IG3? Where’s you get the three?
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on October 12th 2019, 10:20 am
Dunno.

Prolly because it sounds like a droid name, lal.
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on October 17th 2019, 3:47 pm
Alright... consider this a formal concession. Kun just hasn’t a chance in hell from a lore perspective.
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on October 17th 2019, 5:11 pm
Why give up so early? A case can easily be created for Kun, tbh.

Just not with any wacky you-know-who type scaling.
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on October 17th 2019, 6:20 pm
It’s also I’m just a bit busier now. I have a billion tests every other week. Trust me, I’d continue this if I could, but time is an issue. I also don’t like Kun as much as I used to, and am having a hard time debating for him.
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on October 17th 2019, 9:31 pm
@Deronn_Solo wrote:Why give up so early? A case can easily be created for Kun, tbh.

Just not with any wacky you-know-who type scaling.

You should take over DC. Show the new debaters what is up.
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on October 17th 2019, 10:23 pm
If that's cool with Praxis, I wouldn't mind stepping in.
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on October 17th 2019, 10:47 pm
Sure, that's fine with me.
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on October 18th 2019, 2:40 am
So, we create another thread, or I just take or from here?
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on October 18th 2019, 9:10 pm
@Deronn_Solo wrote:So, we create another thread, or I just take or from here?

I guess just take over from where IG left off. Not really sure how the rules work for something like this.
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on October 21st 2019, 1:14 pm
Alright. Imma savage what I can, and add some of my own argumentative points.

No offense to IG, but some points were outlandish, and nigh impossible to defend - so I'll just concede to what I can't rebut.
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