ROTJ Luke vs A'Sharad Hett

Without any supporting quotes, assuming gargantuan power growths for Vader and Luke between TESB and RotJ is total conjecture. Luke not growing at the same rate he did while being trained by, arguably, the greatest and wisest Jedi of all time, isn't far-fetched. What is far-fetched is Darth Vader tripling in power over the course of a year at a similar rate to his prodigious son who had much more power to actualize.

The issue is if you have ESB Luke comparable with ESB Vader than you would have all the Jedi Masters Vader has stomped below ESB Luke which doesn't make sense.
ESB Luke is not comparable to Vader, not one bit. The movie showcases this. Lol at MP's pathetic attempts of lowballing Vader

King Joker wrote:Without any supporting quotes, assuming gargantuan power growths for Vader and Luke between TESB and RotJ is total conjecture. Luke not growing at the same rate he did while being trained by, arguably, the greatest and wisest Jedi of all time, isn't far-fetched.

Complete respect to you but this is not true.

Consider any real life skill, chess/coding/badminton/math etc. If you are trained in a bootcamp for a few weeks and then left to your own. Are you not going to grow vastly over the course of one year if you keep practicing? Are those few weeks of training going to replace your self learning, self exploration, your own intense study of new concepts extended over a period of time that is vastly superior to the time you had in training?

Ask pretty much anyone who has been in that situation. I am confident that every single one will agree with me. And no, stating that "this is SW, real life logic doesn't work" is a cheap get out card( just in case you were planning on using it).

Meatpants wrote:Luke in ESB is not Dooku/Maul level, lol.

Let's try this in your style MP

Prove it

As I became more and more pissed off in this thread, even I couldn't get it. I couldn't get why such an obvious fact is being overlooked.

Vader watched Luke. His boy was powerful, stronger than he’d imagined. And still pliable. Not lost yet—either to the sickening, weakly side of the Force, that had to beg for everything it received; or to the Emperor, who feared Luke with reason.
............


He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City—not to mention the boy’s timing, which was honed to a thought’s-breadth.

Credit: Return of the Jedi

Probably because of the fact that, maybe I have known this instinctively and that a google search is all it takes to find this out

ROTJ Vader>>>>>>ESB Vader. Nice

LOTL wrote:
Vader>=ESB Luke

I appreciate that you are repping for Vader here, but no ESB Luke isn't close to ESB Vader. The film showcases this, and logically in the context of the OT it makes no sense at all.

SithSauce wrote:

LOTL wrote:
Vader>=ESB Luke

I appreciate that you are repping for Vader here, but no ESB Luke isn't close to ESB Vader. The film showcases this, and logically in the context of the OT it makes no sense at all.

George Lucas’ description of what he wrote / created > your interpretation of what you saw

Please cite me Lucas's description of the fight

SithSauce wrote:Please cite me Lucas's description of the fight

It's at 11:21 since the forum apparently doesn't allow timestamp youtube links

Interesting. But George Lucas says slightly one-sided, could that be ironic?

Yeh that doesn't suggest Luke and Vader were close as of ESB

Offtopic but that featurette was very insightful in other issues. It explained in basic terms why the Obi-Wan vs Anakin fight went the way it did: Anakin is more powerful but Obi-Wan is more experienced. His experience was useful against his own apprentice, but it wouldn't be at all helpful against the Emporer, hense why Obi-Wan isn't strong enough to face Sidious but has the right skillsets to take Anakin.

On topic: I can see either taking it, but my money is on Hett. RotJ Luke isn't that much different a fighter stylistically than the early CW Anakin Hett stopped.

LOTL wrote:Complete respect to you but this is not true.

Consider any real life skill, chess/coding/badminton/math etc. If you are trained in a bootcamp for a few weeks and then left to your own. Are you not going to grow vastly over the course of one year if you keep practicing? Are those few weeks of training going to replace your self learning, self exploration, your own intense study of new concepts extended over a period of time that is vastly superior to the time you had in training?

Ask pretty much anyone who has been in that situation. I am confident that every single one will agree with me. And no, stating that "this is SW, real life logic doesn't work" is a cheap get out card( just in case you were planning on using it).

I'm not sure the Force (an abstract and mystical energy field) is analogous to such concrete, well-documented studies and games like math, chess, and the like. To name just a few of the differences, the skills you listed are relatively direct in their practice and ubiquitous in their ability to be understood and reasonably mastered. The Force, by contrast, is obviously not as graspable as mathematical equations, and its corresponding lightsaber combat is far more complex than probably any kind of Earth-based martial art.

We also have to remember in this analogy that the thousands of years of Force knowledge and research were unavailable to Luke besides (I believe) a few journals he found. Post-TESB, Luke was operating within a largely nebulous construct in the dark.

This is not to say that Luke couldn't have increased in power at a rapid rate—he is the son of the Chosen One, after all—merely that the rate of increase would've logically been slower than in the presence of a wise, 900-year-old Jedi Master.

MasterCilghal wrote:Interesting. But George Lucas says slightly one-sided, could that be ironic?

I guess that means that Vader is better than Luke by a good margin, but not enough to stomp him? It might be incorrect grammar, Lucas isn't the best with words.