TPM mace windu and RoTS count Dooku VS RoTJ vader and RoTJ luke

which team wins and why ?
luke is rage amped (same amp that allowed him to overpower vader)

Lol

Team 2.

Team 1

Team 1.

Team 1 every time.

Team 1

Vader should defeat Dooku handily, then duo takes on the weakest version of Windu.

Why should Vader defeat Dooku?

His style should overwhelm Dooku who is vulnerable to heavy strikes. Dooku had a hard time with Savage's strength, Vader is way stronger and his combat skills are extremely lethal. Also Vader's Force mastery is not to be underestimated and should counter anything Dooku would throw at him. His durability, stamina and power is too much for the old man. Dooku as a swordsman is incredible but Vader's combat mastery should protect him from Dooku's Makashi and break his defences at the same time. Dooku's lightning isn't a problem for Vader since latter can tank it even without Tutaminis though he is quite skilled with it. I don't see Dooku managing to outmatch Vader in any category including speed since the latter is capable of blitzing Jedi.

Dooku might be the weak link

Nah, RotS Dooku is on par with Mace. Mace should be the weaker link.

It's a good fight either way. Dooku might have trouble with Vader's strength but Mace can definitely handle it and will beat him in a good to great fight while Dooku slaughters Luke. If Dooku does end up fighting Vader, he'll eventually win but it'll be with a considerable amount of difficulty while Mace schools Luke.

As for the Force, it's a lot simpler. Vader can match either for a while in the Force but lightning will bring him down fairly quickly if he isn't able to block it. Once he's done, either of the team can pretty much stomp Luke, especially if he's not rage amped.

Team 1 is pretty much guaranteed to win. If Vader had a better teammate team 2 might be able to pull a minority, but Luke isn't powerful enough in his non-rage amped state. Even with it, he's still grossly outmatched in sabers and the Force.

Mace cannot win against Vader without Vaapad and his significant power growth, he loses.

@HellfireUnit

His style should overwhelm Dooku who is vulnerable to heavy strikes. Dooku had a hard time with Savage's strength, Vader is way stronger and his combat skills are extremely lethal.

Vader being "way stronger" than Savage is so far unsubstantiated. Regardless, Dooku didn't have trouble with Savage's strength. If you're referring to TCW S3 where Savage disarms Dooku with a single hit if you listen to the audio cue you can clearly hear it's a lightsaber blow combined with a TK attack. Savage disarms Dooku by Force Pushing him lol not sending him flying across the room with a pure strength.

Moreover, it's clearly an outlier anyway given that people who aren't as strong as Dooku have blocked strikes from Savage while at a leverage disadvantage. Also, note that Yoda has failed to disarm Dooku with a single strike despite overpowering Sidious in bladelocks who held off the combined strength of Savage and Maul.

Also Vader's Force mastery is not to be underestimated and should counter anything Dooku would throw at him. His durability, stamina and power is too much for the old man.

So far this is unsubstantiated.

Dooku as a swordsman is incredible but Vader's combat mastery should protect him from Dooku's Makashi and break his defences at the same time.

Vader's "combat mastery" allowed him to stalemate a post-prime Obi-Wan:

The Essential Guide to Characters wrote:“Teacher and pupil engaged in a savage but evenly matched lightsaber battle.”

Mysteries of the Jedi wrote:“Although Obi-Wan is still a match for Darth Vader, he allows himself to be killed in the duel, giving Luke and the Rebels precious time to escape.”

Meanwhile, Dooku took on Anakin and Kenobi at the same time, and while trapped in between them, heavily drained and in the middle of getting battered by Anakin was quick and skilled enough to heave Anakin off him and subdue Kenobi with the Force. I don't see Vader replicating the same thing, he's simply not refined enough.

Dooku's lightning isn't a problem for Vader since latter can tank it even without Tutaminis though he is quite skilled with it.

Another addition to the category of unsubstantiated claims:

AOTC Novelization wrote:Dooku gave a little growl and thrust forth his hand, loosing a line of blue lightning at the diminutive Master. Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily.

If Dooku's lightning can pressure Yoda despite him being a considerable distance away I'm not convinced Vader will be able "tank" it when Dooku's up close and hits him mid duel which based on what he did to Kenobi he should be capable of doing.

I don't see Dooku managing to outmatch Vader in any category including speed since the latter is capable of blitzing Jedi.

What's impressive about blitzing fodder Jedi? Dooku has kept up with Yoda's speed:

AOTC Novelization wrote:With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance. Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through. Just as he was about to launch a counter, though, Yoda was gone, leaping high and turning a somersault to land right behind Dooku, in perfect balance, striking hard. Dooku reversed his grip and stabbed out behind him, intercepting the blow. He let go of his weapon altogether, tossing it just a bit, and spun about, catching it before it had even disengaged from Yoda's blade.

Note that this was before Dooku increased the tempo of his attack "dramatically":

AOTC Novelization wrote:With a growl of rage, Dooku reached more deeply into the Force, letting it flow through him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its power. His tempo increased suddenly and dramatically, three steps forward, two steps back, perfectly balanced all the while. His fighting style was one based on balance, on the back-and-forth charges, thrusts and sudden retreats, and now he came at Yoda with a series of cunning stabs, angled left and right.

While Dooku does eventually get overwhelmed by Yoda's speed and pushed back it should be noted that the same thing happened to Sidious in ROTS, so it's hardly an anti-feat. Moreover, "the battle with Obi-Wan and Anakin had taken a lot out of Count Dooku" just before his fight with Yoda meaning he probably burned out a lot quicker than he would have done normally against Yoda.

In total contrast, Vader can't even deal with Old Ben's speed and thinks if he diverts his attention to warn the stormtroopers not to intervene he will be killed:

Death Star wrote:A group of stormtroopers standing in the dock became aware of them. Vader felt rather than saw them notice the strange duel, and sensed the troopers heading toward them.

He did not wish them to interfere, but even to warn them off would take concentration that he could not afford at the moment. Should his attention falter, Obi-Wan could kill him in the blink of an eye.

So, to summarise Dooku:

-Will not have a hard time dealing with Vader's strength.
-Is faster and more skilled.
-Has Force Lightning which can disable Vader if (when) he's hit.

@NotAA3 Good post mate, I'll be responding soon.

@HellfireUnit Thanks.

@NotAA3 The New Hope novel has Vader winning the fight u know?

NotAA3 wrote:@HellfireUnit

His style should overwhelm Dooku who is vulnerable to heavy strikes. Dooku had a hard time with Savage's strength, Vader is way stronger and his combat skills are extremely lethal.

Vader being "way stronger" than Savage is so far unsubstantiated. Regardless, Dooku didn't have trouble with Savage's strength. If you're referring to TCW S3 where Savage disarms Dooku with a single hit if you listen to the audio cue you can clearly hear it's a lightsaber blow combined with a TK attack. Savage disarms Dooku by Force Pushing him lol not sending him flying across the room with a pure strength.

Moreover, it's clearly an outlier anyway given that people who aren't as strong as Dooku have blocked strikes from Savage while at a leverage disadvantage. Also, note that Yoda has failed to disarm Dooku with a single strike despite overpowering Sidious in bladelocks who held off the combined strength of Savage and Maul.

Also Vader's Force mastery is not to be underestimated and should counter anything Dooku would throw at him. His durability, stamina and power is too much for the old man.

So far this is unsubstantiated.

Dooku as a swordsman is incredible but Vader's combat mastery should protect him from Dooku's Makashi and break his defences at the same time.

Vader's "combat mastery" allowed him to stalemate a post-prime Obi-Wan:

The Essential Guide to Characters wrote:“Teacher and pupil engaged in a savage but evenly matched lightsaber battle.”

Mysteries of the Jedi wrote:“Although Obi-Wan is still a match for Darth Vader, he allows himself to be killed in the duel, giving Luke and the Rebels precious time to escape.”

Meanwhile, Dooku took on Anakin and Kenobi at the same time, and while trapped in between them, heavily drained and in the middle of getting battered by Anakin was quick and skilled enough to heave Anakin off him and subdue Kenobi with the Force. I don't see Vader replicating the same thing, he's simply not refined enough.

Dooku's lightning isn't a problem for Vader since latter can tank it even without Tutaminis though he is quite skilled with it.

Another addition to the category of unsubstantiated claims:

AOTC Novelization wrote:Dooku gave a little growl and thrust forth his hand, loosing a line of blue lightning at the diminutive Master. Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily.

If Dooku's lightning can pressure Yoda despite him being a considerable distance away I'm not convinced Vader will be able "tank" it when Dooku's up close and hits him mid duel which based on what he did to Kenobi he should be capable of doing.

I don't see Dooku managing to outmatch Vader in any category including speed since the latter is capable of blitzing Jedi.

What's impressive about blitzing fodder Jedi? Dooku has kept up with Yoda's speed:

AOTC Novelization wrote:With a sudden burst of sheer power, Master Yoda flew forward, his blade working so mightily that its residual glow outshone even those of both of Anakin's lightsabers when he was at the peak of his dance. Dooku held strong, though, his red blade parrying brilliantly, each block backed by the power of the Force, or else Yoda's strikes would have driven right through. Just as he was about to launch a counter, though, Yoda was gone, leaping high and turning a somersault to land right behind Dooku, in perfect balance, striking hard. Dooku reversed his grip and stabbed out behind him, intercepting the blow. He let go of his weapon altogether, tossing it just a bit, and spun about, catching it before it had even disengaged from Yoda's blade.

Note that this was before Dooku increased the tempo of his attack "dramatically":

AOTC Novelization wrote:With a growl of rage, Dooku reached more deeply into the Force, letting it flow through him as if his physical form was a mere conduit for its power. His tempo increased suddenly and dramatically, three steps forward, two steps back, perfectly balanced all the while. His fighting style was one based on balance, on the back-and-forth charges, thrusts and sudden retreats, and now he came at Yoda with a series of cunning stabs, angled left and right.

While Dooku does eventually get overwhelmed by Yoda's speed and pushed back it should be noted that the same thing happened to Sidious in ROTS, so it's hardly an anti-feat. Moreover, "the battle with Obi-Wan and Anakin had taken a lot out of Count Dooku" just before his fight with Yoda meaning he probably burned out a lot quicker than he would have done normally against Yoda.

In total contrast, Vader can't even deal with Old Ben's speed and thinks if he diverts his attention to warn the stormtroopers not to intervene he will be killed:

Death Star wrote:A group of stormtroopers standing in the dock became aware of them. Vader felt rather than saw them notice the strange duel, and sensed the troopers heading toward them.

He did not wish them to interfere, but even to warn them off would take concentration that he could not afford at the moment. Should his attention falter, Obi-Wan could kill him in the blink of an eye.

So, to summarise Dooku:

-Will not have a hard time dealing with Vader's strength.
-Is faster and more skilled.
-Has Force Lightning which can disable Vader if (when) he's hit.

good post exept you are referring to a ANH vader which is not his "suited" prime .
RoTJ vader is superior to ANH vader in every aspect .
this is like comparing TPM windu with RoTS windu or TPM sidious with RoTS sidious .

@Dark_Globe yeah, there’s a specific statement for that

@dark_globe

you are referring to a ANH vader which is not his "suited" prime .
RoTJ vader is superior to ANH vader in every aspect .
this is like comparing TPM windu with RoTS windu or TPM sidious with RoTS sidious .

I mean there's not much indication Vader grew significantly more powerful, and given that his potential has been massively curbed I don't see any reason why Vader should have grown to such a degree that he's comparable to Dooku by ROTJ when he's orders of magnitude beneath him as of ANH.

good post

Cheers.

SithSauce wrote:@NotAA3 The New Hope novel has Vader winning the fight u know?

I wonder which is more valuable:

-Objective OOU statements declaring Ben and Vader's equality.

-Your (subjective) interpretation of what happened.

NotAA3 wrote:

SithSauce wrote:@NotAA3 The New Hope novel has Vader winning the fight u know?

I wonder which is more valuable:

-Objective OOU statements declaring Ben and Vader's equality.

-Your (subjective) interpretation of what happened.

Ok, time to nip this in the bud. I see your objective OOU statements and raise you not only the film, which depicts Obi-Wan holding his own at first before being pushed back along the hanger, but also the official ANH novel which is credited to George Lucas and recognised as an official authority. I can even raise a copy of the script where Obi-Wan is literally on the defensive the entire time until he catches Vader off-guard by suddenly trying to exploit a weakness, which is what Soresu users do. Immediately after that, he’s then forced back again. 

And no disrespect intended, but that “kill him in an instant” quote is laughably out of context of Vader’s entire character arc. Vader is scared of Kenobi. He literally has their last fight in the forefront of his mind throughout most of the fight, fighting cautiously and working on covering his defences as best as he can. Of course Vader is going to fear that Obi-Wan could potentially kill him because he’s done it before. Saying Obi-Wan could do that (when we know he couldn’t because Vader is described as blocking Kenobi’s fastest strikes with ease during the fight in both the script and the novel while also forcing him back throughout) is Vader’s subconscious influencing him because of past trauma.

I challenge you to find one depiction of the fight itself, not some quick footnote referencing it, that has Obi-Wan not only matching Vader, but also gaining the upper hand. So far, the script, the novel and The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader depict Vader as having the upper hand throughout, with the novel and script even depicting Obi-Wan as “barely” blocking Vader’s opening strikes while Vader casually stopped Obi-Wan’s in their tracks. The ONLY time Ben ever had the upper hand was when he caught Vader off-guard, which Vader quickly countered and began forcing Ben back across the hanger yet again.

I’m tempted to do a big blog post going into this in depth because this is starting to get boring as a way of challenging Vader.

RotS Dooku>RotS Kenobi>RotJ Vader

@BreakofDawn I'm going to be rather busy for most of the week but I'll try and see if I can get a response done for you.