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O-Siri
O-Siri

Mustafar Vader hindered or not? Empty Mustafar Vader hindered or not?

on August 30th 2019, 1:15 pm
Personally, I don't think so. We have quotes from the novel that Vader continued to grow in power after Knightfall even as his proverbial dragon starts to get the better of him again[1] and that his anguish over fighting Kenobi strengthened him not hindered him. [2]. His dragon only hinders his power when he's consciously aware of his emotions and has a moral incentive to keep himself in check, it applies to Anakin but not Vader as the latter no longer has any inclination to restrain his emotions.

[1] 
Spoiler:


He could feel his power growing, indeed. He had the measure of his “Master” already; not long after Palpatine shared the secret of Darth Plagueis’s discovery, their relationship would undergo a sudden ... transformation. A fatal transformation. Everything was proceeding according to plan.
And yet ...

He couldn’t shake a certain creeping sensation ... a kind of cold, slimy ooze that slithered up the veins of his legs and spread clammy tendrils through his guts ...Almost as though he was still afraid ...She will die, you know, the dragon whispered. He shook himself, scowling. Impossible. He was Darth Vader. Fear had no power over him. He had destroyed his fear. All things die. Yet it was as though when he had crushed the dragon under his boot, the dragon had sunk venomed fangs into his heel. Now its poison chilled him to the bone. Even stars burn out. He shook himself again and strode toward the holocomm. He would talk to his Master. Palpatine had always helped him keep the dragon down.

[2] 
Spoiler:
But that’s not really true, Obi-Wan thought as he ducked and wove and parried. Both he and Anakin felt the anguish of their need to kill the other. But Anakin had turned to the dark side, and despair and pain strengthened the dark side. It gave him an advantage Obi-Wan could not match. Unless he let go of his own despair and let the living Force move him — the Force that bound all living things together, even Obi-Wan and this new, deadly, evil Anakin.
HellfireUnit
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on August 30th 2019, 1:33 pm
I agree with you. People appear to be calling MFV much weaker than KFV basically justifies him losing to Kenobi.
MasterCilghal
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on August 30th 2019, 1:45 pm
There is only one quote that points to him being somewhat weaker, but he is still a level 9, as indicated by Gillard. 

Source: Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader wrote:Anakin had still been between worlds then, and vulnerable. 
However, until Kenobi did not let go of his emotions towards Anakin he was getting pretty much overwhelmed. Only after he achieved an emotional growth that placed them on pretty much the same level.
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on August 30th 2019, 2:01 pm
I'd say he was hindered though I still think he's powerful on Mustafar.
KingofBlades
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on August 30th 2019, 2:01 pm
Hmmmm a tier 8 stalemating a tier 9. Hmmmm. The tier 9 couldn't possibly be hindered.


Last edited by KingofBlades on August 30th 2019, 2:05 pm; edited 1 time in total
HeartoftheForce
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on August 30th 2019, 2:04 pm
He’s not
MasterCilghal
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on August 30th 2019, 2:07 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:Hmmmm a tier 8 stalemating a tier 9. Hmmmm. The tier 9 couldn't possibly be hindered.
As I already said Kenobi obtained a boost in power that placed him on par with Anakin by freeing himself of his attachments. It’s stated in the novel
MasterCilghal
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on August 30th 2019, 2:11 pm
And not just in the novel: 


 The Ultimate Visual Guide wrote:As every step becomes more perilous and Vader's attacks more ferocious, Obi-Wan realizes that he still cares for Anakin, and that the only way he can defeat his opponent is to let go of his feelings for his former friend. When Obi-Wan releases this emotional attachment, the battle turns for the Jedi. 
KingofBlades
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on August 30th 2019, 2:16 pm
If that were true Gillard would have said that Kenobi starts as an 8 but becomes a 9 later on in the movie like he did with Anakin
MasterCilghal
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on August 30th 2019, 2:18 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:If that were true Gillard would have said that Kenobi starts as an 8 but becomes a 9 later on in the movie like he did with Anakin
🇪🇭
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on August 30th 2019, 2:21 pm
Ive also seen the argument that Kenobi started the fight on Mustafar hindered making him weaker than he was when he fought Dooku or GG. Obi Wan letting go merely brought him back to where he was normally.
MasterCilghal
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on August 30th 2019, 2:39 pm
There’s no indication for that
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on August 30th 2019, 2:42 pm
It makes far more sense than arguing that Kenobi became a tier 9 despite Gillard explicitly saying Kenobi was an 8.
MasterCilghal
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on August 30th 2019, 2:54 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:It makes far more sense than arguing that Kenobi became a tier 9 despite Gillard explicitly saying Kenobi was an 8.
Not necessarily saying he became a 9 but he did increase substantially. There is no way he would have been able to stalemate Vader.
O-Siri
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on August 30th 2019, 5:30 pm
@MasterCilghal wrote:There is only one quote that points to him being somewhat weaker, but he is still a level 9, as indicated by Gillard. 

Source: Dark Lord: The Rise of Darth Vader wrote:Anakin had still been between worlds then, and vulnerable. 
However, until Kenobi did not let go of his emotions towards Anakin he was getting pretty much overwhelmed. Only after he achieved an emotional growth that placed them on pretty much the same level.
The RODV quote isn't specific to Mustafar only, it could easily be a shortcoming attributed to KF Vader as well. 


@KingofBlades wrote:Ive also seen the argument that Kenobi started the fight on Mustafar hindered making him weaker than he was when he fought Dooku or GG. Obi Wan letting go merely brought him back to where he was normally.
Pretty much, as Ziggy argued in the Hett thread, Kenobi's attachment is only a factor when fighting Anakin because he's a walking guilt trip for Kenobi, it wouldn't be a hindrance to his abilities against Dooku, Ventress, Grievous or any of the countless battle droids and clone troopers he cut down. 


@MasterCilghal wrote:Not necessarily saying he became a 9 but he did increase substantially. There is no way he would have been able to stalemate Vader.
Who said anything about a stalemate? Anakin was forcing Kenobi to give ground the entire time even after he let go of his attachment; Kenobi had previously stonewalled Grievous and Dooku without giving any ground, which should be a very strong indication of how much of an advantage Anakin still possessed and how powerful he is relative to those two. The script also  makes it very clear Kenobi was forced to give ground too and that it wasn't just willingly giving ground as a strategic move: 

RotS Script:
ANAKIN forces OBI-WAN back into the Conference Room where the quarters are much closer. Sparks fly everywhere. ANAKIN jumps onto the conference table. OBI-WAN slides across the table, knocking ANAKIN over. OBI-WAN grabs ANAKIN’s lightsaber as he falls. OBI-WAN uses the Force to summon his dropped lightsaber. ANAKIN does the same. 

...

ANAKIN forces OBI-WAN down a narrow balcony outside the Control Room. He rips objects off the wall and throws them at OBI-WAN as he pushes him further and further along the walkway.

...

ANAKIN cuts apiece of the balcony railing off, along with a control panel.
ALARMS SOUND, and a protective ray shield around the superstructure disappears. It tumbles into the molten abyss, disappearing in a puff of smoke. A small pipe connects the Control Center to the Main Collection Plant. OBI-WAN has no choice but to tightrope-walk out across the lava river while fighting ANAKIN.



If the fight had remained on that small floating platform in the lava I guarantee you Anakin would have won so long as Kenobi had no place else to go. 

 That Kenobi can deflect Force pushes doesn't mean he's equal or even comparable in power, a Force user doesn't need to be even close in Force ability to defend against Force attacks, for the umpteenth time look at Bane and Kas'im, the latter is no where near as powerful yet he was able to block or at least blunt the worst effects of his temple buster Force wave. 

I don't see an issue in Kenobi, the greatest living master of Soresu including Yoda, holding out defensively against Anakin who still had him on the run in contrast to Dooku and Grievous who couldn't make him step back an inch, especially when the script very strongly implies Anakin would have won in short order as soon as he had Kenobi cornered.
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on August 31st 2019, 2:42 am
@O-Siri wrote:Who said anything about a stalemate? Anakin was forcing Kenobi to give ground the entire time even after he let go of his attachment; Kenobi had previously stonewalled Grievous and Dooku without giving any ground, which should be a very strong indication of how much of an advantage Anakin still possessed and how powerful he is relative to those two. The script also  makes it very clear Kenobi was forced to give ground too and that it wasn't just willingly giving ground as a strategic move: 


Sure, Anakin was giving him more difficulty than anyone before, but that doesn’t change the fact that they were fighting evenly: 



Still, the fight continued, even as the collection tower sank slowly into the lava. And still, neither man could gain an advantage.
Source: Revenge of the Sith Junior Novelization




Years of fighting side-by-side left these warriors evenly matched, and their exhausting duel crossed the fiery landscape of a Mustafar refinery.
Source: Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force

Master Azronger
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on August 31st 2019, 4:40 am
No, he wasn't hindered

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DarthAnt66
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on August 31st 2019, 11:30 am
Immensely hindered. Obi isn’t near Sidious/Yoda.
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on August 31st 2019, 12:28 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:Immensely hindered. Obi isn’t near Sidious/Yoda.


This. 
 
This. 

This is the only possible explanation that allows Obi Wan, who at his best, has Dooku level force augmentation to compete with Anakin. 

Receiving a Monumental growth in power by letting go of his attachment to Anakin, while duelling Anakin is meme tier wank. It just means he was hindered at the beginning of the fight and un-hindered himself as the fight went on.  And Obi-Wan was still competing against Mustafar Vader much better than Dooku did Anakin, and this was before letting go. So I don't even think MFV is better than IH Anakin, let alone Zonakin.  

Gillard, whose reflective on Lucas' ideas of ROTS power levels, gives Obi an eight.  And he even addresses people on the fringes - Mace Windu actually being an "8 bordering 9" but doesn't do the same for Kenobi.  

Getting so much stronger in such a short period of time would be impossible without oneness or using the Darkside (taking Force LSD).
HellfireUnit
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on August 31st 2019, 12:42 pm
Anakin being close to Yoda or Sidious doesn't make any sense though. Both of them are significantly more powerful than Anakin (not in terms of raw power).
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on August 31st 2019, 1:07 pm
@O-Siri wrote:
Who said anything about a stalemate? Anakin was forcing Kenobi to give ground the entire time even after he let go of his attachment; Kenobi had previously stonewalled Grievous and Dooku without giving any ground, which should be a very strong indication of how much of an advantage Anakin still possessed and how powerful he is relative to those two. The script also  makes it very clear Kenobi was forced to give ground too and that it wasn't just willingly giving ground as a strategic move: 

I'm not convinced that Kenobi was "forced" to give ground.



Before "letting go":
In every exchange, Obi-Wan gave ground. It was his way. And he knew that to strike Anakin down would burn his own heart to ash.

Source: ROTS Novelization

After:
Mustafar hummed with death behind his back, only a moment away, somewhere out there among the rivers of molten rock. Obi-Wan let Anakin drive him toward it. It was a place, he decided, they should reach together. Anakin forced him back and back, slamming his blade down with strength that seemed to flow from the volcano overhead. He spun and whirled and sliced razor-sharp shards of steel from the wall and shot them at Obi-Wan with the full heat of his fury.

Source: ROTS Novelization

Obi-Wan backed to the end of the balcony; behind him was only a power conduit no thicker than his arm, connecting it to the main collection plant of the old lava mine, over a riverbed that flowed with white-hot molten stone. Obi-Wan stepped backward onto the conduit without hesitation, his balance flawless as he parried chop after chop.

Source: ROTS Novelization

Obi-Wan turned his dive into a forward roll that left him barely teetering on the rim of a low cliff, just above the soft black sand of the riverbank. Anakin snarled a curse as he realized he'd been suckered, and leapt off his droid at Obi-Wan's back---

Half a second too slow.

Obi-Wan's whirl to parry didn't meet Anakin's blade. It met his knee. Then his other knee.

And while Anakin was still in the air, burned-off lower legs only starting their topple down the cliff, Obi-Wan's recovery to guard brought his blade through Anakin's left arm above the elbow. He stepped back as Anakin fell.

Source: ROTS Novelization

Kenobi was only giving him ground initially because of his hesitation. After he "let go" he was in complete control.
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on September 1st 2019, 3:32 am
Somewhat hindered basically. That and Obi Wan's considerable increase in power and familiarity accounts for him being able to match Vader
O-Siri
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on September 1st 2019, 1:34 pm
@Praxis

I see it as Kenobi letting the Force dictate the course of the battle, much like how it was on Utapau. That said the script makes it clear Kenobi can't stand his ground with Skywalker as he could with Dooku or Grievous, hence him "having no choice but to tightrope-walk". So while I'll allow for that giving ground was in part with keeping in Kenobi's strategy it was also very much a forced move, which tells me Anakin most likely would have won had Kenobi been forced to remain on the tight-spaced floating platform.
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on September 1st 2019, 1:41 pm
Dropped to a high tier 8, in my opinion. Obi-Wan's Buddha moment boosted his abilities to an extent.
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on September 1st 2019, 2:07 pm
Yeh Vader wasn't in his A game in ROTS. The novel notes that he hadn't slept or eaten in days prior. Not to mention the choking of Padme may have caused some emotional distression. Obi Wan at this point can't be a 9 or equal to KF Vader when he's told flat out by Yoda that he is no match for Palpatine
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