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AlakanSpacewalker
AlakanSpacewalker

Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him. Empty Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him.

on January 23rd 2020, 8:56 pm
Yep. Here we go again https://youtu.be/fgb9aVHCO1I  Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him. 2257779481

Provide all the sources you can!
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him. Empty Re: Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him.

on January 23rd 2020, 9:52 pm
@BOD is making a blog about this. give it time. 

as for something else, the fight is contradictory. some information given to us goes against other information. its almost a matter of which one u consider makes the most sense.
BoD
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Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him. Empty Re: Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him.

on January 24th 2020, 5:41 am
Posts coming this weekend, hopefully.
AlakanSpacewalker
AlakanSpacewalker

Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him. Empty Re: Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him.

on January 24th 2020, 12:43 pm
SWFF 55: Vader’s internal struggle against the faint spark and his soul that was Anakin had been thrown into high relief’s by the Dark Lords feelings for his son. The emperor demanded other obedience and unquestioning loyalty. Vader vowed to serve his Dark Master but the words sounded hollow.
SWFF 17: “Vader wasn’t trying to hurt his son, merely force him into submission”
Courtship of a Princess Leia: “so this is how it would have been if Vader tried to kill me.”
New Essential Chronology: Vader’s resolve began to flicker as he saw the good in his son” 
RotJ movie: “you couldn’t bring yourself to destroy me then and I don’t think you’ll do it now”
The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader: *explains the entire fight from Vader’s prospective*
Stuart Carapola (an official author): explained how Luke wasn’t nearly as powerful as Vader merely caught him off guard with the Dark amp.
Fightsaber: “RANDOM FACTORS” always tip the balance and skill levels are always subservient to the needs of the story”
All imply Vader was both hindered and suppressed. 




Almost all the evidence I see for him not holding back comes from older statment from George Lucas (who loves to contradict himself) and a 37 year old script and novel which was merely The authors interpretation of the movie. Vader probably threw the lightsaber and drew it on Luke while climbing up the stairs to scare him and force him to fight because he knew Luke could cope with it, heck even season 1 Ezra Bridger can dodge a thrown lightsaber.
Underachiever599
Underachiever599

Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him. Empty Re: Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him.

on January 24th 2020, 2:23 pm
@AlakanSpacewalker

SWFF 55: Vader’s internal struggle against the faint spark and his soul that was Anakin had been thrown into high relief’s by the Dark Lords feelings for his son. The emperor demanded other obedience and unquestioning loyalty. Vader vowed to serve his Dark Master but the words sounded hollow.

Nobody has questioned whether or not Vader felt conflict during the duel. The question is whether or not this actually hindered him, or meant he was holding back. I’ll address this when I post my own sources here soon. 

SWFF 17: “Vader wasn’t trying to hurt his son, merely force him into submission”

Fact Files, a secondary source, is directly contradicted by the novelization, a primary source. 

His anger was layered, now – he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... Then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness.

Vader may not have wanted to hurt or kill Luke, but he was perfectly willing to, as demonstrated in his repeated attempts to deliver death blows in the actual duel. 

Courtship of a Princess Leia: “so this is how it would have been if Vader tried to kill me.”

Luke is a notoriously unreliable narrator at the best of times. At the time Luke had that moment of internal dialogue, he was already suffering from severe brain damage due to Gethzerion’s Nightsister spells. Immediately after delivering that line, Luke can’t even remember who Ben Kenobi is. We can’t take Luke as a definitive source here, especially when he’s dying from a bleeding brain. 

New Essential Chronology: Vader’s resolve began to flicker as he saw the good in his son”

That doesn’t tell us the exact timing. For all we know, that means Vader’s resolve flickered when he saw Luke throw down his lightsaber, or when he saw Luke begging Vader for help. 

RotJ movie: “you couldn’t bring yourself to destroy me then and I don’t think you’ll do it now”

Luke is stating a personal belief here. He wants to think there is more good in Vader than evil. But the Return of the Jedi novel shows us Vader’s internal reaction to this, which I have already posted above. “But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn’t fight… Then he could do that, too.” His anger grew layered, and Vader tried to kill Luke with a lightsaber throw.

The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader: *explains the entire fight from Vader’s prospective*

Yes, but you have yet to actually post any quotes supporting your stance. Here, allow me to post one from The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader, since you didn’t: 

"You are unwise to lower your defenses," Vader said, as he brought his lightsaber up fast. With incredible speed, Luke reactivated his weapon to parry Vader's attack. Vader swung again and again, but Luke blocked each blow. Soon, Vader was breathing hard through his respirator. I can't let Luke defeat me, Vader thought. I won't let the Emperor have him!
 

Vader was attacking fast enough that his breathing grew hard, which you can actually hear in the movie. Vader grew desperate in trying to defeat Luke. “I can’t let Luke defeat me.” Doesn’t seem like Vader is holding back to me. 

Stuart Carapola (an official author): explained how Luke wasn’t nearly as powerful as Vader merely caught him off guard with the Dark amp.

As I’ve already pointed out in another thread, Stuart Carapola is not an official author. He writes for Star Wars Wavelength, a Star Wars fansite. He has no more authority than anyone on this website. He has never worked on an official Star Wars project, which you would know if you looked at the things he’s written. 

Fightsaber: “RANDOM FACTORS” always tip the balance and skill levels are always subservient to the needs of the story”

That Fightsaber line applies to literally every lightsaber duel in the entire franchise, not just this one here. Also, having just speed-read through all of Fightsaber, I couldn’t find that quote anywhere. Mind pointing to which page of Fightsaber it’s on so I can see the full context?

All imply Vader was both hindered and suppressed.

Your first two Fact Files quotes might imply this, but one is directly contradicted by primary sources. The Courtship of Princess Leia quote comes from a wildly unreliable narrator. Your New Essential Chronology quote doesn’t specify timing, and thus is too vague to prove whether or not it relates to the duel, or just to the scene when Vader actually saved Luke. Your line from the movie is from Luke, and Vader’s internal dialogue immediately contradicts Luke’s belief in the novel, not to mention Vader’s actions. You didn’t even post any lines from The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader, you just cited it with no comment on its contents. This tells me nothing in the book actually supports your claims like you say it does. Stuart Carapola isn’t an official source in any capacity, as he just works for a fan website. And your Fightsaber line doesn’t apply directly to this duel, but rather, to every single lightsaber duel in the franchise. 

Of your eight sources here, only the first Fact Files quote actually solidly supports your case. Even then, it doesn’t outright state that Vader was hindered or was holding back. 


Vader probably threw the lightsaber and drew it on Luke while climbing up the stairs to scare him and force him to fight because he knew Luke could cope with it, heck even season 1 Ezra Bridger can dodge a thrown lightsaber.
 

And now you’re resorting to head canon, when we already have know exactly what was going through Vader’s mind during that scene thanks to the novel and comic.

Now, allow me to post some sources.
Return of the Jedi official comic adaptation: 

But if the son holds any reluctance at the clash... The father seemingly does not. Darth Vader presses forward... 

... Strong, skillful, sure! Exhibiting more deadly invincibility than ever!

- - - - -

On the Death Star... Father and son grimly clash! Brutally, aggressively, Darth Vader brings his full strength and power against the younger man. 

But unlike the first time they dueled in the carbon-freezing chamber of Bespin's Cloud City... 

... This is a battle of equals. 

The young Jedi has grown in the interim... 

... And if there is any true advantage, it seems to have shifted to him.

- - - - -

"Within the converted control chamber aboard the Death Star serving as the Emperor's throne room... The two combatants fight as never before. 

Darth Vader's defense is powerful and relentless... 

... But it is only a defense. 

Step by step, Luke drives the Dark Lord onto the walkway over the battle station's main elevator shaft... 

... Each stroke of his sword forcing his father... 

... Further toward defeat! 

Until... 

Vader's lightsaber sails into the nearly bottomless shaft and sparks fly from the mechanized stump that once held his right hand! The Emperor's laughter fills the great chamber…
 

So, the comic has Vader seemingly not holding any reluctance at fighting Luke, while we know for a fact that Luke was heavily conflicted about facing Vader throughout the whole movie. The comic has Vader exhibiting “more deadly invincibility than ever before,” and “bruttally, aggressively” bringing “his full strength and power” against Luke. So even if we argue Vader is mildly hindered by his internal conflict, Vader’s performance here is still better than “ever before,” and he’s definitely going all out.

On top of that, during Luke’s final burst of rage, “the two combatants fight as never before.” This implies Vader’s defense against Luke’s rage is Vader’s best combative display ever, as he’s fighting “as never before.” 

Return of the Jedi Novel: 

Before Vader could gather his thoughts much further, though, Luke attacked again - much more aggressively. He advanced in a flurry of lunges, each met with a loud crack of Vader's phosphorescent saber. The Dark Lord retreated a step at every slash, swivelling once to bring his cutting beam up viciously - but Luke batted it away, pushing Vader back yet again. The Lord of the Sith momentarily lost his footing on the stairs and tumbled to his knees. Luke stood above him, at the top of the staircase, heady with his own power. It was in his hands, now, he knew it was: he could take Vader. Take his blade, take his life. Take his place at the Emperor's side. Yes, even that. Luke didn't bury the thought, this time; he gloried in it. He engorged himself with its juices, felt its power tingle his cheeks. It made him feverish, this thought, with lust so overpowering as to totally obliterate all other considerations. He had the power; the choice was his. And then another thought emerged, slowly compulsive as an ardent lover: he could destroy the Emperor, too. Destroy them both, and rule the galaxy. Avenge and conquer. It was a profound moment for Luke. Dizzying. Yet he did not swoon. Nor did he recoil. He took one step forward

For the first time, the thought entered Vader's consciousness that his son might best him. He was astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel, in the Cloud City - not to mention the boy's timing, which was honed to a thought's-breadth. This was an unexpected circumstance. Unexpected and unwelcome. Vader felt humiliation crawling in on the tail of his first reaction, which was surprise, and his second, which was fear. And then the edge of the humiliation curled up, to reveal bald anger. And now he wanted revenge.

These things were mirrored, each facet, by the young Jedi who now towered above him. The Emperor, watching joyously, saw this, and goaded Luke on to revel in his Darkness. "Use your aggressive feelings, boy! Yes! Let the hate flow through you. Become one with it, let it nourish you!"

Luke faltered a moment - then realized what was happening. He was suddenly confused again. What did he want? What should he do? His brief exultation, his microsecond of dark clarity - gone, now, in a wash of indecision, veiled enigma. Cold awakening from a passionate flirtation. He took a step back, lowered his sword, relaxed, and tried to drive the hatred from his being. In that instant, Vader attacked. He lunged half up the stairs, forcing Luke to reverse defensively. He bound the boy's blade with his own, but Luke disengaged and leaped to the safety of an overhead gantry. Vader jumped over the railing to the floor beneath the platform on which Luke stood.

"I will not fight you, Father," Luke stated. "You are unwise to lower your defenses," Vader warned. His anger was layered, now – he did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn't fight... Then he could do that, too. Only he wanted Luke to be aware of those consequences. He wanted Luke to know this was no longer just a game. This was Darkness.
 

The novel doesn’t explicitly say whether Vader is hindered or not, or whether he’s going all out or not. It does, however, tell us that Vader revealed “bald anger,” “he wanted revenge,” and that “he did not want to win if the boy was not battling at the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn’t fight… Then he could do that, too.” 

Take into account the passage from The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader that I posted above, and we have three primary sources all either implying or outright stating that Vader was fighting better than ever and that he wasn’t holding back.
AlakanSpacewalker
AlakanSpacewalker

Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him. Empty Re: Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him.

on January 24th 2020, 3:51 pm
@Underachiever599: my reply didn’t post for some reason but here a few things I’d like to point out. This is not at all the same reply I originally had written out bty 


1: if the fact files are a secondary source then why are they called the “OFFICIAL” SWFF?


2: the Fightsaber line is here https://ibb.co/w7TPW7V

3: The COPL dose price that even Luke thinks Vader would have destroyed him had he have not been holding back and Luke was LITERALLY there fighting Vader.

4: I didn’t quote anything from the Rise of Vader because I didn’t remember the quote because of how long it’s been since I read the book. Though I do remember it saying something about Vader only fighting to delay his own defeat, he won’t let Luke beat him but he won’t kill Luke either and he desperately wanted to go with him but he prior had a vision of him training Luke and Palpatine showing up and giving them both the Mustifar treatment.

5: do you seriously think Luke would just say that if it wasn’t true? Unless you think Luke was lying (which would be out of character for him) or that Vader was tricking him (which nothing I’ve seen even implies) then Vader was truly holding back at least right there at that moment.

6: all of that evidence of him not holding back were before Luke deactivated his saber, after Luke did so Vader’s Motivation changed and he was no longer fighting to kill Luke (as the novel implies) but was rather fighting to not be defeated himself. Remember Vader was fighting to protect Luke from the emperor as stated in the passage you just quoted?


Last edited by AlakanSpacewalker on January 24th 2020, 4:07 pm; edited 1 time in total
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him. Empty Re: Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him.

on January 24th 2020, 3:59 pm
i feel like some shit has to be said- if there is a quote that makes absolutely no sense regarding the topic being discussed, please dont use. example would be "the two combatants fight as never before" is blatantly wrong. for both luke AND Vader. vader mightve been in his prime, but he was obviously not fighting at his best. and actually, neither was luke. he got rage amps that made him faster, stronger, etc, but it also messed with his mind. neither of them were in peak condition here. please dont post dumb shit just to make a point. thanks.
AlakanSpacewalker
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Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him. Empty Re: Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him.

on January 24th 2020, 4:06 pm
Were you not the one who was just arguing that Vader was fighting at his best and he wasn’t hindered?
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him. Empty Re: Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him.

on January 24th 2020, 4:44 pm
no, i was arguing the literal opposite.
AlakanSpacewalker
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Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him. Empty Re: Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him.

on January 24th 2020, 4:59 pm
Okay then why were you quoting what were basically the only sources that suggested Vader wasn’t holding back? And where are your sources to suggest he was? Because I was almost convinced he was the superior between him and Vader.
Underachiever599
Underachiever599

Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him. Empty Re: Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him.

on January 24th 2020, 5:35 pm
@AlakanSpacewalker wrote:Okay then why were you quoting what were basically the only sources that suggested Vader wasn’t holding back? And where are your sources to suggest he was? Because I was almost convinced he was the superior between him and Vader.
I think you have Lorenzo and myself confused. We have the same profile image.

Anywho, I'm currently at work, so I can't do a long reply. I'll try to set aside time for further replies this evening or tomorrow
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Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him. Empty Re: Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him.

on January 24th 2020, 5:38 pm
vader wasnt holding back. he did in fact want to beat luke (for a few reasons, i suppose). what he didnt want to do was to kill him. he was conflicted, yes, but him wanting to beat luke can be proven multiple ways. him wanting to save luke from sheev, him wanting to not get killed off by sheev if he lost, him being replaced, him being mad that luke was the reason padme died, etc.
AlakanSpacewalker
AlakanSpacewalker

Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him. Empty Re: Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him.

on January 24th 2020, 5:46 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
So I guess you now think Luke was simply stronger than his father? Also Luke wasn’t the cause of Padme’s death wut?
AlakanSpacewalker
AlakanSpacewalker

Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him. Empty Re: Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him.

on January 24th 2020, 5:47 pm
@Underachiever599 wrote:
@AlakanSpacewalker wrote:Okay then why were you quoting what were basically the only sources that suggested Vader wasn’t holding back? And where are your sources to suggest he was? Because I was almost convinced he was the superior between him and Vader.
I think you have Lorenzo and myself confused. We have the same profile image.

Anywho, I'm currently at work, so I can't do a long reply. I'll try to set aside time for further replies this evening or tomorrow

Oh, I’m sorry bout that but I did have you two confused Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him. 2257779481
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him. Empty Re: Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him.

on January 24th 2020, 5:50 pm
no? vader is stronger than luke. by a good bit too, according to a good amount of sources and some obvious scaling. id rather not claim too much shit, since BOD is prolly gonna get done with his blog by the end of this week, maybe start of next week, so ill just leave it to him. he is better than me at this.
AlakanSpacewalker
AlakanSpacewalker

Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him. Empty Re: Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him.

on January 24th 2020, 6:09 pm
What’s @BOD’s blog going to be about?
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him. Empty Re: Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him.

on January 24th 2020, 6:19 pm
the fight itself lol
AlakanSpacewalker
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Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him. Empty Re: Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him.

on January 24th 2020, 6:24 pm
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Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him. Empty Re: Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him.

on January 25th 2020, 5:19 am
@AlakanSpacewalker wrote:[size=31]SWFF 55: Vader’s internal struggle against the faint spark and his soul that was Anakin had been thrown into high relief’s by the Dark Lords feelings for his son. The emperor demanded other obedience and unquestioning loyalty. Vader vowed to serve his Dark Master but the words sounded hollow.[/size]
[size=31]SWFF 17: “Vader wasn’t trying to hurt his son, merely force him into submission”[/size]

First one is a fake quote or rather reworded to be purposely misleading. Fact File 55 was telling events in order and this was right after the events of SOTE. It then leads into everything Vader did before meeting Luke in ROTJ and then glossed over specifics with Luke.
Was Darth Vader truly fighting at his full power against Luke? Or was he hindered? If not then how did Luke beat him. Scree152

I'm 90 percent sure your Fact File 17 quote is fake. But that doesn't matter because Fact File 17 was specifically about the Bespin duel. Even then it doesn't exactly back up this quote but anyone is welcome to go read it. Nor does a duel where Vader is slamming stuff into Luke and cuts off his hand back up the "hurt" part if taken hyper-literally.
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