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Mustafar Vader>BoROTS Anakin confirmed Empty Mustafar Vader>BoROTS Anakin confirmed

on April 24th 2020, 7:19 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Obi-Wan tracked his former friend to the planet Mustafar. Full of angers Vader attacked Obi-Wan. The Jedi Master was a legendary fighter, but so was Anakin, and now he had the power of the dark side of the force.


Credit: Obi Wan Kenobi, Jedi Knight

Note, that this quote is unique in the sense that it specifically refers to the "power" of the dark side in the context of the battle. The common argument employed to show why Anakin is weaker is that he may be more powerful but he cannot access that power yet. However in this quote, it is evident that Anakin "can" access the power because it is referring to the context of Anakin attacking him in the battle itself. The entire point of the statement is to show that Anakin is more formidable because he has the power of the dark side so why would they mention that he "now can access the power" of the dark side if he cannot make use of that power?

Note that if Anakin cannot access that "power" of the dark side then the entire point of the statement "Anakin was a legendary fighter before but now he even has the power of the dark side" makes no sense whatsoever

However, this cannot be employed to put Zonakin or KFV as inferior to MFV as they too are employing that power in battle


Last edited by LOTL on April 24th 2020, 7:23 am; edited 1 time in total
Latham2000
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Mustafar Vader>BoROTS Anakin confirmed Empty Re: Mustafar Vader>BoROTS Anakin confirmed

on April 24th 2020, 7:22 am
RIP to the hindered argument.
Azronger
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on April 24th 2020, 7:45 am
I mean this was already pretty obvious with him being tier 9

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on April 24th 2020, 8:03 am
^
HeartoftheForce
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Mustafar Vader>BoROTS Anakin confirmed Empty Re: Mustafar Vader>BoROTS Anakin confirmed

on April 24th 2020, 9:40 am
Scan for those who care 

Mustafar Vader>BoROTS Anakin confirmed Adefda10
TheNuisanceBird
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Mustafar Vader>BoROTS Anakin confirmed Empty Re: Mustafar Vader>BoROTS Anakin confirmed

on April 24th 2020, 11:19 am
@LOTL wrote:
Obi-Wan tracked his former friend to the planet Mustafar. Full of angers Vader attacked Obi-Wan. The Jedi Master was a legendary fighter, but so was Anakin, and now he had the power of the dark side of the force.


Credit: Obi Wan Kenobi, Jedi Knight

Note, that this quote is unique in the sense that it specifically refers to the "power" of the dark side in the context of the battle. The common argument employed to show why Anakin is weaker is that he may be more powerful but he cannot access that power yet. However in this quote, it is evident that Anakin "can" access the power because it is referring to the context of Anakin attacking him in the battle itself. The entire point of the statement is to show that Anakin is more formidable because he has the power of the dark side so why would they mention that he "now can access the power" of the dark side if he cannot make use of that power?

Note that if Anakin cannot access that "power" of the dark side then the entire point of the statement "Anakin was a legendary fighter before but now he even has the power of the dark side" makes no sense whatsoever

However, this cannot be employed to put Zonakin or KFV as inferior to MFV as they too are employing that power in battle

I'd say we're going for round 2 today but my response to this would be included in the other thread. 

Regardless:

This quote still falls under describing Anakin as a different version but not explicitly saying it's a better one. And the quote isn't completely unique considering in the ROTS Anakin himself says to Kenobi that he can't match the power of the dark side during that fight, which Kenobi does at one point during a contest of TK strength. 

I don't think anyones saying Anakin can't access that power at that point it's just the extent of it. It's also that he can't use or focus it as effectively as he did on the IH. 

Again the quote says he's no using the dark side which during Mustafar is fully. However it doesn't mean it's better as I've mentioned above.
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LOTL

Mustafar Vader>BoROTS Anakin confirmed Empty Re: Mustafar Vader>BoROTS Anakin confirmed

on April 24th 2020, 11:30 am
@TheNuisanceBird wrote:
@LOTL wrote:
Obi-Wan tracked his former friend to the planet Mustafar. Full of angers Vader attacked Obi-Wan. The Jedi Master was a legendary fighter, but so was Anakin, and now he had the power of the dark side of the force.


Credit: Obi Wan Kenobi, Jedi Knight

Note, that this quote is unique in the sense that it specifically refers to the "power" of the dark side in the context of the battle. The common argument employed to show why Anakin is weaker is that he may be more powerful but he cannot access that power yet. However in this quote, it is evident that Anakin "can" access the power because it is referring to the context of Anakin attacking him in the battle itself. The entire point of the statement is to show that Anakin is more formidable because he has the power of the dark side so why would they mention that he "now can access the power" of the dark side if he cannot make use of that power?

Note that if Anakin cannot access that "power" of the dark side then the entire point of the statement "Anakin was a legendary fighter before but now he even has the power of the dark side" makes no sense whatsoever

However, this cannot be employed to put Zonakin or KFV as inferior to MFV as they too are employing that power in battle

I'd say we're going for round 2 today but my response to this would be included in the other thread. 

Regardless:

This quote still falls under describing Anakin as a different version but not explicitly saying it's a better one. And the quote isn't completely unique considering in the ROTS Anakin himself says to Kenobi that he can't match the power of the dark side during that fight, which Kenobi does at one point during a contest of TK strength. 

I don't think anyones saying Anakin can't access that power at that point it's just the extent of it. It's also that he can't use or focus it as effectively as he did on the IH. 

Again the quote says he's no using the dark side which during Mustafar is fully. However it doesn't mean it's better as I've mentioned above.

It is explicitly saying it that Anakin is better yeah. If you contest that then there is not much I can do to influence you at all. This is elementary reading comprehension bro

Anakin is being arrogant. That statement to Obi Wan is hyperbole.


Yeah and all that being considered too he is still a 9. In the beginning of ROTS Anakin is an 8. Hence Mustafar Anakin>BoROTS Anakin. This quote supports that too. Which is my point. I am not saying that MFV is necessarily better than the "focused Anakin" on the IH but yeah he is better than the early version of Anakin on the IH( who was still beating Dooku) because that early version is an "8"


Last edited by LOTL on April 24th 2020, 11:52 am; edited 1 time in total
The Dark Apprentice
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Mustafar Vader>BoROTS Anakin confirmed Empty Re: Mustafar Vader>BoROTS Anakin confirmed

on April 24th 2020, 11:47 am
inb4 Ant whines about DK being a seperate conintuity because it doesn't fit with his Anakin
Jaggarath
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Mustafar Vader>BoROTS Anakin confirmed Empty Re: Mustafar Vader>BoROTS Anakin confirmed

on April 24th 2020, 11:58 am
With people flaunting quotes like these, I question how many people have actually read or understood the "hindered" argument, lol.
Latham2000
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Mustafar Vader>BoROTS Anakin confirmed Empty Re: Mustafar Vader>BoROTS Anakin confirmed

on April 24th 2020, 12:29 pm
Zonakin can dictate reality per Stover's novel, Mustafar Anakin can't Mustafar Vader>BoROTS Anakin confirmed 3344068304
TheNuisanceBird
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Mustafar Vader>BoROTS Anakin confirmed Empty Re: Mustafar Vader>BoROTS Anakin confirmed

on April 24th 2020, 1:41 pm
@LOTL wrote:
@TheNuisanceBird wrote:
@LOTL wrote:
Obi-Wan tracked his former friend to the planet Mustafar. Full of angers Vader attacked Obi-Wan. The Jedi Master was a legendary fighter, but so was Anakin, and now he had the power of the dark side of the force.


Credit: Obi Wan Kenobi, Jedi Knight

Note, that this quote is unique in the sense that it specifically refers to the "power" of the dark side in the context of the battle. The common argument employed to show why Anakin is weaker is that he may be more powerful but he cannot access that power yet. However in this quote, it is evident that Anakin "can" access the power because it is referring to the context of Anakin attacking him in the battle itself. The entire point of the statement is to show that Anakin is more formidable because he has the power of the dark side so why would they mention that he "now can access the power" of the dark side if he cannot make use of that power?

Note that if Anakin cannot access that "power" of the dark side then the entire point of the statement "Anakin was a legendary fighter before but now he even has the power of the dark side" makes no sense whatsoever

However, this cannot be employed to put Zonakin or KFV as inferior to MFV as they too are employing that power in battle

I'd say we're going for round 2 today but my response to this would be included in the other thread. 

Regardless:

This quote still falls under describing Anakin as a different version but not explicitly saying it's a better one. And the quote isn't completely unique considering in the ROTS Anakin himself says to Kenobi that he can't match the power of the dark side during that fight, which Kenobi does at one point during a contest of TK strength. 

I don't think anyones saying Anakin can't access that power at that point it's just the extent of it. It's also that he can't use or focus it as effectively as he did on the IH. 

Again the quote says he's no using the dark side which during Mustafar is fully. However it doesn't mean it's better as I've mentioned above.

It is explicitly saying it that Anakin is better yeah. If you contest that then there is not much I can do to influence you at all. This is elementary reading comprehension bro

Anakin is being arrogant. That statement to Obi Wan is hyperbole.


Yeah and all that being considered too he is still a 9. In the beginning of ROTS Anakin is an 8. Hence Mustafar Anakin>BoROTS Anakin. This quote supports that too. Which is my point. I am not saying that MFV is necessarily better than the "focused Anakin" on the IH but yeah he is better than the early version of Anakin on the IH( who was still beating Dooku) because that early version is an "8"

Not it isn't lol It just says it's a different version of Anakin and that he's not necessarily stronger. That parts objective. 

Well you talking to yourself through an imaginary version of me in the previous thread comes across as elementary school like. Perhaps it's because you have a harder time debating the real version of me. 


Like Anakin hasn't been otherwise...(sarcasm)


A 9 that is enormously above Kenobi and on par with Sidious and Yoda at the beginning of ROTS. 

What about IH Anakin states he's an 8. During his performance against Dooku he is showing physical augmentation feats above Yoda and Sidious and almost kills Dooku in just three strikes. Once Anakin and Obi-Wan stop holding back Anakin is clearly the bigger threat. 

Well you've previously said that Mustafar Anakin > Knightfall Anakin so I'm not sure you mean what you're saying here. 

I'd continue but Master Ant's response in the other thread covers it.
TheNuisanceBird
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on April 24th 2020, 1:44 pm
For some reason the blue highlight stuff got fucked up.

EDIT: Nevermind. Asides from the extra boxes it's fine.
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on April 25th 2020, 10:52 pm
I won't change my mind until we get G-canon quotes confirming Obi Wan's meteoric power increase from tier 8 to 9. 

As g-canon isn't hot on that premise, this source, another tertiary source commenting on the fight, cheap and cheerful as it is, can suck on my bell-end. Mustafar Vader>BoROTS Anakin confirmed 815462187
SithSauce
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on April 26th 2020, 10:55 am
https://youtu.be/UqLsQClut5c?t=506
There's also this quote from Hayden Christensen where he says Obi Wan got the upperhand but that's "a result of Anakin's emotions and not being able to focus them and control them which is the root of Anakin's inabilities".
Honestly Kenobi's victory isn't as impressive as some people make it out to be and it certainly doesn't peg him at tier 9
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on April 26th 2020, 11:28 am
@SithSauce wrote:https://youtu.be/UqLsQClut5c?t=506
There's also this quote from Hayden Christensen where he says Obi Wan got the upperhand but that's "a result of Anakin's emotions and not being able to focus them and control them which is the root of Anakin's inabilities".
Honestly Kenobi's victory isn't as impressive as some people make it out to be and it certainly doesn't peg him at tier 9
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LOTL

Mustafar Vader>BoROTS Anakin confirmed Empty Re: Mustafar Vader>BoROTS Anakin confirmed

on April 26th 2020, 11:38 am
Again, both Gillard and C-canon statements point to those emotional inabilities to be his aggression or arrogance. Nothing else
SithSauce
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on April 26th 2020, 12:07 pm
But Christensen notes how he could not control and focus those emotions and that makes sense as he's up against his former master who he had once loved and cared for. That to me puts you at a pretty big disadvantage. And even arrogance is a hinderance as well.
I mean you can't argue that TPM Kenobi>Maul just because Maul was arrogrant.
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on April 26th 2020, 1:37 pm
@SithSauce wrote:But Christensen notes how he could not control and focus those emotions and that makes sense as he's up against his former master who he had once loved and cared for. That to me puts you at a pretty big disadvantage. And even arrogance is a hinderance as well.
I mean you can't argue that TPM Kenobi>Maul just because Maul was arrogrant.

People argue TPM Kenobi > Any version of Vader so anything can happen at this point.
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on April 26th 2020, 1:40 pm
@TheNuisanceBird wrote:
@SithSauce wrote:But Christensen notes how he could not control and focus those emotions and that makes sense as he's up against his former master who he had once loved and cared for. That to me puts you at a pretty big disadvantage. And even arrogance is a hinderance as well.
I mean you can't argue that TPM Kenobi>Maul just because Maul was arrogrant.

People argue TPM Kenobi > Any version of Vader so anything can happen at this point.
Mustafar Vader>BoROTS Anakin confirmed 1220391476
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on April 26th 2020, 2:36 pm
@SithSauce wrote:But Christensen notes how he could not control and focus those emotions and that makes sense as he's up against his former master who he had once loved and cared for. That to me puts you at a pretty big disadvantage. And even arrogance is a hinderance as well.
I mean you can't argue that TPM Kenobi>Maul just because Maul was arrogrant.

Yeah but he is explicitly saying why Obi Wan got the "upper hand" on Anakin. It is pretty obvious that he is referring "only" to the last scene as at no point in the battle other than that can Obi Wan be called to have the legitimate upper hand, he was losing throughout the fight.

Also note that he is not saying "yeah this is something Anakin had gone through only in this fight", he is saying that it is the "root of his inabilities in battle", meaning, to Christensen, this is not a one time thing for Anakin, but is present across all versions of Anakin throughout.

Obi Wan notes however that such a thing is only an "advantage" to Anakin, and yeah, I am inclined to take his word over your theory. The actor commentary is not contradictory because he is only concentrating on that one point where Obi Wan actually manages to get the upper hand( while citing a weakness that he believes is literally the root of all of Anakin's problems meaning it is persistent across all of his versions in battle)

I am not arguing TPM Obi Wan>TPM Maul. I am not arguing that Mustafar Kenobi>Mustafar Vader. In fact, I believe it is quite clear that Obi Wan is inferior to Vader in the battle. I am saying that that version of Vader is above BoROTS Anakin. That is literally it
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on April 26th 2020, 8:51 pm
Well while we wait for a response I can say it now that ROTS Anakin > Any version of Vader. 

Ant and I will debate you on that if necessary.
Latham2000
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on April 26th 2020, 9:16 pm
Why do you guys have to make BoRotS Anakin vs Mustafar Anakin such a touchy subject?
The Dark Apprentice
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on April 26th 2020, 9:41 pm
no no, I would love to see KFV vs ROTS anakin
DarthSkywalker0
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on April 27th 2020, 1:59 am
Message reputation : 100% (6 votes)
Anakin having the power somehow means he is able to properly utilize it? Can someone explain that disconnect, lol. Everyone knows he has a lot of power, that does not mean he is capable of using it. Jeff Bezos has a lot of money, but he can't spend most of it cause it isn't liquid.
Latham2000
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on April 28th 2020, 10:17 am
Mustafar Anakin is more powerful than BoRotS Anakin, no question there, he can't properly use his power due to lack of mental mastery/discipline, but that can be said about all versions of Anakin, so it's more of a question of which Anakin is more mentally disciplined.
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