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The Lost
The Lost
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Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 4th 2019, 6:34 pm
To Elm's points:
 
1. Let's grant that Dooku can beat Anakin and Obi-Wan from late TCW since connecting TCW to RotS SN that way would lead us in that direction. That doesn't really address Maul and Savage directly since Dooku does evidently perform differently vs different types of opponents in different situations. Not just Savage but Maul or to use a pertinent example, Vos, are all different variables to consider.

2. There is evidence strongly suggesting Mustafar Kenobi rose in power sharply.

3. Not aware of any reason to think late CW Dooku grew in power enough to make a difference. I don't even know if that's been mentioned anywhere. Dooku seems pretty maxed out potential wise by this point.

Anyway, main point: Savage is the main reason Dooku loses here. TCW Kenobi's Ataru or RotS Kenobi's Soresu is not comparable to Savage's attributes and style, not even close.

He "barely" held an edge over a less powerful Savage and Ventress who is just overall weaker than Maul. I also think Kenobi's Ataru (which Dooku knows inside and out from sparring endlessly with Yoda and Jinn, along with its weaknesses), or his Soresu (which is way too passive for Dooku's highly dueling oriented Makashi) is almost uniquely great style-wise for Dooku compared to Ventress, Maul, Anakin, Savage etc.
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 5th 2019, 1:09 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Savage is not making any difference here unless he's in brainwash mode. Trying to isolate the single instance of Savage landing one inconclusive hit and saying that means he wins is ignorant and ignoring Savages later inconsistencies. Despite apparently "growing stronger", Savage fails to replicate this feat with Kenobi, despite him being mentally hindered at the time, he failed to replicate this again on Florrum with either Adi or Kenobi, he failed to replicate this with Plo Koon, he failed to replicate this against Ventress, despite coming down from 7 feet above with all his weight in a full hammer blow. This is the same Ventress that Dooku can casually manhandle handle with strength. As a far the "bare" edge goes


Asajj Ventress and Savage Opress wage a combined attack against Dooku, whose abilities with the Force far surpass those of his apprentices.

http://www.starwars.com/video/dooku-vs-his-apprentices


Not really. Dooku far surpasses their combined powers. But let's be kind and say the two contradictory sources cancel each other out, we look at the source material itself.

Dooku easily dodges both Savage and Ventress' attacks, even when deprived of his lightsaber. The one fluke hit Savage lands is instantly negated by the Counts powers, he dodged the rest and it's made abundantly clear that the duo were on the verge of losing before Savage snapped. 

At no point was Dooku "barely" doing anything. He had a timely and effective answer for everything they had even saberless, the only blow landed was Opress' one hit which he has never replicated even against weaker opponents after supposedly growing stronger. So that leaves us with

1. Savage could only perform this ability whilst in a Nightsister trance or the massive Dark Rage amp caused by breaking said trance, where he possessed singular focus and control.

2. Savage can perform this again. But simply never does. In which case it's about as useful as bringing up Koon's electric judgement or Maul knowing lightning. It's pointless if it's clear in character they will never use it.

Once again, Dooku wins. He could, not once, but twice gain breathing room against Obi-Wan and Anakin via physical strikes and force attack, as our great friend ILS has said in this thread


ILS wrote:Styles make fights.

Maul's juyo leaves him vulnerable to counters the Count is more than happy to provide. Likewise if even Plo Koon can evade one of Savage's attacks and land a saber strike, Oppress is losing a limb here almost instantly. 

I mean hell, Kenobi was able to push the brothers back for a time in order to get an opening for escape and a weapon retrieval. 
Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Giphy
And likewise despite being stuck in a confined space between the two brothers was able evade all of their coordinated attacks while hitting Savage with impunity.

Dooku is more than capable of pulling that off.
Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 5816689-2023520061-54935
So no. Savage is not making any difference here. And Maul just loses.

Dooku wins.
Sjuttiosju
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Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 5th 2019, 5:06 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Good post Grey.

OT-The Count.
HeartoftheForce
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Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on July 14th 2020, 1:59 am
Bump
HellfireUnit
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Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on July 14th 2020, 4:09 am
Duo still wins.
Meatpants
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Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on July 14th 2020, 4:39 am
Dooku ragdolls
HellfireUnit
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Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on July 14th 2020, 5:35 am
@Meatpants wrote:It's not an easy fight, that's for sure.
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on July 14th 2020, 5:48 am
HU learning what evolving opinions are.
HellfireUnit
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Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on July 14th 2020, 5:52 am
Didn't know you had a sense of humour Grey
Sjuttiosju
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Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on July 14th 2020, 9:33 am
Dooku still wins.
DarthFatcow
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Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on July 14th 2020, 11:27 am
@Meatpants wrote:Dooku ragdolls
Jedi_Jesus
Jedi_Jesus

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on July 14th 2020, 11:36 am
Nah, maul brothers tbh. Dooku isn't blitzing Kolar tiin and fisto, and savage is noted to preform better against sidious than all 3 of them together by Filoni. 

Mauls already close to dooku in canon, and savage is more than enough to tip the scales
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Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on July 14th 2020, 12:10 pm
Team. Comparing Dooku to Sidious is laughable. Maul alone is a hell of a fight for the Count. Throwing in Savage tips it in their favour.
HellfireUnit
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Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on July 14th 2020, 1:01 pm
Maul versus Dooku would be mid difficulty at best. He is inferior in pretty much everything aside from physicals (no aug). However combining such fericious opponents would be simply too much for him.


Last edited by HellfireUnit on July 14th 2020, 1:06 pm; edited 1 time in total
Latham2000
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Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on July 14th 2020, 1:03 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Savage Opress solos.
Meatpants
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Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on July 14th 2020, 1:13 pm
Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 1668617588
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Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on July 14th 2020, 1:22 pm
@Latham2000 wrote:Savage Opress solos.
Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 2208776636
DarthAnt66
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Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on July 14th 2020, 1:42 pm
I’m more open to Dooku winning than I used to be.
SnowxElf
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Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on July 14th 2020, 7:28 pm
I'd Favor Dooku personally. Also, I do not see how Maul has any relativity to Dooku. Dooku probably couldn't stomp Mual but Dooku would still win 10/10 battles against Maul alone very decisively.
Thrawn
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Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on July 14th 2020, 9:38 pm
This thread is a joke?

Dooku has zero chance of defeating the duo.

We've seen Dooku vs Savage and Asaj Ventress - that did not end well for Dooku. Savage and Maul together was too much for Obi Wan and Ventress to handle.

Aside from that, Dooku couldn't handle a group of pirates on Florum without his lightsaber. An unarmed Maul had no such difficulty against fully armed Clone Troopers executing Order 66.

I really like Dooku as a villain (I have since watching ATOC in theaters), but he's over-hyped on this board.

Maul is at least as powerful as Dooku in the Force, combine him with Savage and it's overkill. 

Keep in mind, Maul was Sidious' chosen apprentice and heir because he was that powerful. Dooku was only considered and recruited because Maul was out of the picture. Dooku was never considered to be a long term apprentice unlike Maul or Anakin.
HeartoftheForce
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Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on July 15th 2020, 4:45 am
@HeartoftheForce wrote:Savage is not making any difference here unless he's in brainwash mode. Trying to isolate the single instance of Savage landing one inconclusive hit and saying that means he wins is ignorant and ignoring Savages later inconsistencies. Despite apparently "growing stronger", Savage fails to replicate this feat with Kenobi, despite him being mentally hindered at the time, he failed to replicate this again on Florrum with either Adi or Kenobi, he failed to replicate this with Plo Koon, he failed to replicate this against Ventress, despite coming down from 7 feet above with all his weight in a full hammer blow. This is the same Ventress that Dooku can casually manhandle handle with strength. As a far the "bare" edge goes


Asajj Ventress and Savage Opress wage a combined attack against Dooku, whose abilities with the Force far surpass those of his apprentices.

http://www.starwars.com/video/dooku-vs-his-apprentices


Not really. Dooku far surpasses their combined powers. But let's be kind and say the two contradictory sources cancel each other out, we look at the source material itself.

Dooku easily dodges both Savage and Ventress' attacks, even when deprived of his lightsaber. The one fluke hit Savage lands is instantly negated by the Counts powers, he dodged the rest and it's made abundantly clear that the duo were on the verge of losing before Savage snapped. 

At no point was Dooku "barely" doing anything. He had a timely and effective answer for everything they had even saberless, the only blow landed was Opress' one hit which he has never replicated even against weaker opponents after supposedly growing stronger. So that leaves us with

1. Savage could only perform this ability whilst in a Nightsister trance or the massive Dark Rage amp caused by breaking said trance, where he possessed singular focus and control.

2. Savage can perform this again. But simply never does. In which case it's about as useful as bringing up Koon's electric judgement or Maul knowing lightning. It's pointless if it's clear in character they will never use it.

Once again, Dooku wins. He could, not once, but twice gain breathing room against Obi-Wan and Anakin via physical strikes and force attack, as our great friend ILS has said in this thread


ILS wrote:Styles make fights.

Maul's juyo leaves him vulnerable to counters the Count is more than happy to provide. Likewise if even Plo Koon can evade one of Savage's attacks and land a saber strike, Oppress is losing a limb here almost instantly. 

I mean hell, Kenobi was able to push the brothers back for a time in order to get an opening for escape and a weapon retrieval. 
Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Giphy
And likewise despite being stuck in a confined space between the two brothers was able evade all of their coordinated attacks while hitting Savage with impunity.

Dooku is more than capable of pulling that off.
Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 5816689-2023520061-54935
So no. Savage is not making any difference here. And Maul just loses.

Dooku wins.
The Rich Man
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Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on July 15th 2020, 8:40 am
Probably Dooku
Master Azronger
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Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on July 15th 2020, 1:13 pm
@Thrawn wrote:This thread is a joke?

Dooku has zero chance of defeating the duo.

We've seen Dooku vs Savage and Asaj Ventress - that did not end well for Dooku. Savage and Maul together was too much for Obi Wan and Ventress to handle.

Aside from that, Dooku couldn't handle a group of pirates on Florum without his lightsaber. An unarmed Maul had no such difficulty against fully armed Clone Troopers executing Order 66.

I really like Dooku as a villain (I have since watching ATOC in theaters), but he's over-hyped on this board.

Maul is at least as powerful as Dooku in the Force, combine him with Savage and it's overkill. 

Keep in mind, Maul was Sidious' chosen apprentice and heir because he was that powerful. Dooku was only considered and recruited because Maul was out of the picture. Dooku was never considered to be a long term apprentice unlike Maul or Anakin.

I agree that Dooku is overhyped but only in comparison to the real big boys of the time - Yoda and Sidious. But disregarding that, people hold him in high regard for a reason.

The only reason Dooku "lost" is because Savage snapped and went berserk mode. There's no guarantee of that happening here. Dooku was handily superior to the duo before Savage's outburst. Besides, he grew more powerful over the course of the war. In season 6 he's tooling Anakin and Obi-Wan combined, and in ROTS he was able to hold his own against more powerful versions of Skywalker and Kenobi and incapacitate the latter through sheer Force mastery despite the relativity in power. Maul is substantially less powerful than the Count per Son of Dathomir and isn't skilled enough to defend himself if Obi-Wan can't. And Savage is a joke in comparison to Anakin.

Not saying Dooku's win is guaranteed but he's far from being totally outclassed here. I could very well see him taking a majority.

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Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on July 15th 2020, 3:54 pm
I don't see Son of Dathomir as a fair way to quantify Dooku being > Maul beyond him being more powerful. Dooku is using Force Lightning alongside Sidious - a technique, I might add, that beings like Yoda struggle with when not using a lightsaber to block it - whereas Maul is only able to provide power to Talzin by letting her take some of it. Also, as far as I know, lightning is a far more powerful technique for attacks. I fail to see how we can quantify exactly how much power she was able to siphon from Maul. Similarly, beyond physical weakness I don't see how we can quantify how weakened Dooku was when about a minute or two after getting up, he was standing to his full height, didn't need to support himself, and could kneel and carry out his other usual activities with no sign of weakness. As ROTS for example has shown us, Dooku can renew himself pretty quickly when he needs to and recover from physical ailments in seconds.

I'd also argue that Talzin is suggested to be < Sidious, and was slowly losing that fight. While the comic makes it hard to see, at one point it does show the lightning being closer to Talzin than it is to Sheev (note that it is at a slight angle but this is a similar angle to what is shown throughout the rest of the fight:

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Rco01816

Then there's Starwars.com stating that Talzin believed Sidious to be the most powerful being in the galaxy and it would take her and Maul's combined powers to topple him:

By restoring Maul’s powers, Talzin hoped to defeat Sidious and become the most powerful being in the galaxy.

If someone would establish this, I'd appreciate it. However, right now I don't see Dooku winning against prime Maul alone in anything less than a great fight. I'd argue Dooku is better in every regard except unaugmented physicals, but not by a large margin.
Thrawn
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Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 3 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on July 16th 2020, 9:55 pm
@Master Azronger


"But disregarding that, people hold him in high regard for a reason."

Dooku is impressive and he should be respected, but he's not as good as some people are hyping him up to be.

I remember when ATOC and ROTS came out and no one liked or respected Dooku. I always thought the character was underrated, but since about 2008 onward the pendulum has swung the other way.

The only reason Dooku "lost" is because Savage snapped and went berserk mode.

Lost should not be in quotations. Dooku ran away for his life because he was going to die if he continued against both.

Lest we forget, it was Dooku's tactics that caused Savage to berserk in the first place, an almost lethal error on the Count's part.

There's no guarantee of that happening here.

It doesn't need to. Savage teamed up with Maul is more skilled and refined than the Savage Dooku faced.

As a duelist Maul is at least the equal of the Count.

Maul's one on one performance against Palpatine is not something I imagine Dooku being able to replicate for as successfully.

Besides, he grew more powerful over the course of the war

I think it's the opposite actually.

I refer back to the OT. In response to Luke's question Yoda states the Dark Side is not stronger than the Light Side. It's quicker and offers faster results, but the long term gains are ultimately not as great due to the Dark Side's reliance on anger, selfishness, and reliance on short term bursts of power.

The difference in sprinters and long term runners essentially.

Palpatine offered Dooku enough Dark Side knowledge to increase his power, but midway through the war Dooku had stagnated and that was with the Dark Side at its apex.

I don't see any increase in Dooku's skill or power from ATOC until his death in ROTS. I do see marked improvement in Anakin and Obi Wan.

. In season 6 he's tooling Anakin and Obi-Wan combined, and in ROTS he was able to hold his own against more powerful versions of Skywalker and Kenobi and incapacitate the latter through sheer Force mastery despite the relativity in power.

I think your assessment is off.

This is a pretty good recap of Anakin vs Dooku over the war for quick reference and is a fun watch (not that I agree with all their assessments).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CK-PxFD2jkI&t=15s

The Anakin vs Darth Tyranus rivalry is one of the longest and best in Star Wars (and one of my favorites). It encompasses about 6 duels.

Dooku only outright defeats a padawan Anakin. Most of the remaining duels end with Dooku running away or barely surviving usually due to help from magna droids. Their very first encounter on Tatooine after Geonosis ends with Dooku on his butt sitting on the dunes of Tatooine.

The 2nd duel on Naboo Dooku comes within a hair's breath of dying due to Anakin's overwhelming power and skill. Dooku saves himself by creating distance with Force Lighting.

The first time Anakin gets a shot at Dooku without interference from droids, or Obi Wan's presence, or the plot dictating Dooku needs to survive (The Clone Wars animated duels), he gets decisively out dueled and dies in 12 seconds.

A key takeway is that Dooku thinks he's more powerful than he is and his ego only allows him to recognize Yoda an Sidious as his superiors.

The final duel Dooku has with Anakin and Obi Wan in the Clone Wars (my favorite duel of the whole series by the way and one of my favorites in the entire franchise) Dooku ultimately can't beat Obi Wan or Anakin. He's tired by the end and is just stalling until his ship arrives.

Dooku is a fencer and is adept at warding off multiple lightsaber duelists. Obi Wan and Anakin are trying to capture Dooku not an ideal situation for Anakin and Obi Wan.

The key factor is that he's being backpedaled and is losing rapidly. He couldn't actually beat them, or at least not Anakin.

Bringing up ROTS as some sort of feat or accomplishment in Dooku's favor is not something I'd do.

Dooku is so arrogant that he thinks he can beat Anakin and Obi Wan. In ROTS he takes them both on and dies in less than 2 minutes.

That's not impressive. Yeah, you can look at the novel and say he was playing with them or he thought Palpatine would intervene, etc, but the movie is canon.

All he accomplishes is knocking out Obi Wan after trying to kill him. He failed at that even. 

Hardly an indication of increased power and mastery.

In fact, I think it indicates the opposite - Dooku was lucky throughout the war when dealing with Anakin and Obi Wan. They grew in skill and power while Dooku remained mostly at the same level we see him at in ATOC.

He nearly loses to Asaj and Savage, and he can't outright beat Anakin after the initial encounter on Geonosis.


incapacitate the latter (Obi Wan) through sheer Force mastery despite the relativity in power.

I think that's situational and thematically driven by a few factors. Anakin is Dooku's rival. Not Obi Wan.

Dooku also holds innate advantages over Obi wan due to having trained Obi Wan's master Qui Gon. The ROTS novel even states the metaphor outright (Dooku is essentially Obi Wan's grandfather).

I don't hold that against Obi Wan so much as the plot dictates it.

I firmly believe that by the time of Rebels an Obi Wan who has spent a decade in the desert of Tatooine communing with the Force, learning from  his mistakes, and obtaining even greater mastery could take Dooku.

Not saying Dooku's win is guaranteed but he's far from being totally outclassed here. I could very well see him taking a majority.

I just find that incompatible with what's been demonstrated.

A key point people over look is that Dooku is an unknowing chump.

Palpatine turned to Dooku only after his chosen apprentice Maul was out of the picture, and he's using Dooku only for his money and power.

Dooku thinks he's being groomed as Sith apprentice, as some heir to the Dark Side, but in reality Palpatine gave him a crash course in the Dark Side and very basic Sith Knowledge.

Dooku thinks he's been taught a lot and increased his powers to a point where he's only surpassed by Sidious.

Dooku thinks he's more powerful than Yoda until he faces him in ATOC.

But Dooku was never meant to last more 10-14 years. Sidious gave him only enough knowledge to make Dooku think he was increasing his power more than he actually was.




Maul is substantially less powerful than the Count per Son of Dathomir


I reread Sons of Dathomir after our conversation yesterday. I don't find that implied in the story.

Dooku and Maul don't have a duel or force contest. It's inconclusive intentionally I think by Filoni and company to continue online debate. They know what they're doing when they write this stuff. 

The final confrontation is Sidious vs Talzin and both Dooku and Maul are basically non factors. Particularly Dooku since he's been possessed by Talzin and is weakened. He's not much more than a spectator.


I go back to the fact that Sidious considered Maul a true loss an apprentice and he considered Dooku a temporary place holder. Maul was also able to survive literally being cut in half through his sheer power in the Dark Side (one of the most impressive feats in the franchise). Anakin was able to survive multiple amputations and being burned alive through his sheer power.

I don't that Dooku would be able to replicate either showing.

-----

The only point of contention we appear to have is that you place Dooku above Maul. I don't. I think Maul is innately more powerful as evidenced by his lineage (Mother Talzin's son), Palpatine sensing his potential and making him his chosen apprentice, and Maul surviving being cut in half.

If you want to make the case that Dooku is slightly better skilled/powerful than TCW damaged half cyborg/half insane Maul I'd be open to that, though still not sure if I agree with it.

Dooku vs Maul is debatable to me. Dooku vs Maul combined with and any other significant Force User is not.

It's all good though. We can agree to disagree.

I love both characters either way.

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