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Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 3rd 2019, 5:25 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
You can make a case either way. Backing Dooku though.
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Six
Level Six

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 3rd 2019, 5:26 pm
Dooku wins.
MasterofIllusions
MasterofIllusions

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 3rd 2019, 5:41 pm
Dooku absolutely wins. You could replace Opress with Kenobi and the count still wins 10/10. People really really overrate number advantages on this vine. If Dooku gets beat dueling wise here, though really dooku should do fine in a duel, he will simply end the fight via TK + Lightning
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce
Level One
Level One

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 3rd 2019, 5:49 pm
Dooku comfortably
Shioz
Shioz

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 4th 2019, 4:41 am
Dooku.
Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator | Champion of Darkness
Moderator | Champion of Darkness

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 4th 2019, 5:40 am
Brothers.
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 4th 2019, 5:45 am
Dooku is inconsistent in TCW; at the level he is fighting at on the Invisible Hand, he should win by taking out Savage quickly and then defeating Maul.
The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 4th 2019, 6:49 am
He doesn't really have a way to take out Savage quickly. There is no inconsistency. It's just the way the styles pan out. As hard as it may be to stomach for some people, Savage just by his unique nature, is more useful in a duo than say Obi-Wan because he can't be put down easily and Dooku cannot afford to trade blows with him.

We have literally seen what Savage is capable of and what happens when he fights Dooku. He can't be hurt in any serious way with a burst of lightning or a Force push, unlike Obi-Wan, and he is so aggressive and physically strong that Dooku cannot afford to split his attention two ways, unlike with Obi-Wan.

Just because Obi-Wan might beat Savage if they fought,  it doesn't mean there is some rule saying Obi-Wan must be more useful than Savage in every given situation. Styles make fights.

Dooku dies here.
avatar
LOTL

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 4th 2019, 6:56 am
ILS wrote:He doesn't really have a way to take out Savage quickly. There is no inconsistency. It's just the way the styles pan out. As hard as it may be to stomach for some people, Savage just by his unique nature, is more useful in a duo than say Obi-Wan because he can't be put down easily and Dooku cannot afford to trade blows with him.

We have literally seen what Savage is capable of and what happens when he fights Dooku. He can't be hurt in any serious way with a burst of lightning or a Force push, unlike Obi-Wan, and he is so aggressive and physically strong that Dooku cannot afford to split his attention two ways, unlike with Obi-Wan.

Just because Obi-Wan might beat Savage if they fought,  it doesn't mean there is some rule saying Obi-Wan must be more useful than Savage in every given situation. Styles make fights.

Dooku dies here.

Even more importantly though, Obi Wan is a passive combatant. Even though his augmentation might match Dooku, he is at a pretty considerable hindrance because all his opponent has to do is out skill him by picking apart his defenses purely on the merit of sheer technical capability

Against Obi Wan this works but against Anakin it gets masked because Dooku is so busy trying not to get smashed that he can't employ those same tactics since his opponent is so aggressive that he never gets the chance to bring out his technical superiority into play


Last edited by LOTL on October 4th 2019, 8:18 am; edited 1 time in total
The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 4th 2019, 7:38 am
Typed this before the site dropped:

Like in the same show, Dooku borderline manhandles Kenobi and throws him off a cliff edge while fighting Anakin. That doesn't mean Savage is better than Obi-Wan, but it is clear evidence that Dooku has more trouble with him than he does Obi-Wan. And while the reasons for that are obvious - his insane strength and durability - nobody has to actually explain those reasons. It's self evident that a combo of one strong fighter (be it Anakin, Maul or at a push Ventress) and Savage supporting them is too much for Dooku, even if in 1v1 combat Savage isn't as good as any of them. He might just be the absolute best, most suitable support role against Dooku in particular.
The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 4th 2019, 7:42 am
Also, "better" is a nebulous term. We usually use it as a shorthand for overall Force power separate from how good one is specific powers. But, it seems clear to me that Savage is much better in some areas than others. Is Obi-Wan "better" than him? Well it depends on what you mean. I think he beats him in a fight, and would outperform him against many common opponents (Maul, Vader etc), so in those senses Kenobi is better.

But in terms of specifically helping an ally to kill a lone Dooku? The evidence we have suggests Savage is better than Obi Wan (and most other people) at this particular role. Again, we know the reasons why (his physical attributes and aggression) but it's self evident either way.
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Two
Level Two

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 4th 2019, 7:46 am
Savage solos.
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce
Level One
Level One

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 4th 2019, 7:51 am
Dooku kicks Maul away or ragdolls him then deals with Savage. Or the reverse. Either works.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Five
Level Five

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 4th 2019, 8:20 am
My opinion changed and I'd say brothers would win. Dooku's performance against Ventress and Savage is the reason he loses.
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Two
Level Two

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 4th 2019, 10:40 am
Greysentinel365 wrote:Dooku kicks Maul away or ragdolls him then deals with Savage. Or the reverse. Either works.

But but, Jeremy Barlow says Maul can take a majority against Dooku!!
The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 4th 2019, 11:38 am
Everyone worshipped at the alter of Jeremy Barlow until they realised it puts Vader above Dooku and he then said he thinks Maul beats Dooku.

How the turn tables, eh?
MasterofIllusions
MasterofIllusions

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 4th 2019, 1:36 pm
Barlows opinion doesn’t mean squat. Dooku still takes this through.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Six
Level Six

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 4th 2019, 1:39 pm
ILS wrote:Everyone worshipped at the alter of Jeremy Barlow until they realised it puts Vader above Dooku and he then said he thinks Maul beats Dooku.

How the turn tables, eh?
I mean, canon Vader being > Dooku is pretty hard to argue against nowadays with some of the feats Dooku's been getting. But yeah, the Maul beating Dooku because of willpower claim was just stupid.
The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 4th 2019, 2:00 pm
It goes to show that authors are only useful for our purposes until they aren't.
SithSauce
SithSauce
Level One
Level One

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 4th 2019, 2:20 pm
Greysentinel365 wrote:Dooku kicks Maul away or ragdolls him then deals with Savage. Or the reverse. Either works.
Dooku isn't  portrayed as some one vastly beyond Maul. So no there are no ragdolls
SithSauce
SithSauce
Level One
Level One

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 4th 2019, 2:25 pm
Also brothers wins
SithSauce
SithSauce
Level One
Level One

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 4th 2019, 2:27 pm
@MasterofIllusions wrote:Dooku absolutely wins. You could replace Opress with Kenobi and the count still wins 10/10. People really really overrate number advantages on this vine. If Dooku gets beat dueling wise here, though really dooku should do fine in a duel, he will simply end the fight via TK + Lightning
Except his TK+lightning won't do much to Maul
The Ellimist
The Ellimist
Level Five
Level Five

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 4th 2019, 5:55 pm
Dooku was confident that he could take Anakin and Obi Wan together without having to separate them until he realized how much they'd improved since the last time they met (which, thanks to TCW/Legends, was like...a few months ago?). Anakin and Obi Wan would logically have really high levels of synergy, and Obi Wan had previously been using ataru against Dooku, which is hardly a defensive style. It's highly indicated from the novelization that Obi Wan by the Invisible Hand is a step above TCW Obi Wan. Savage may still have an advantage in sheer physical durability, but I'm not sure if his other advantages would still hold, especially if you don't think Obi Wan at least early in the Mustafar fight was operating that far beyond himself as of the Invisible Hand fight.

Now are Dooku's struggles against Savage + Ventress relative to Anakin + Obi Wan in TCW mainly the result of stylistic differences, or another factor like maybe Dooku growing in power through TCW?
Blade_of_Dorin
Blade_of_Dorin
Level One
Level One

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 4th 2019, 6:12 pm
@The Ellimist wrote: It's highly indicated from the novelization that Obi Wan by the Invisible Hand is a step above TCW Obi Wan. 
What in the novel indicates this?
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Two
Level Two

Dooku vs. Maul Brothers - Page 2 Empty Re: Dooku vs. Maul Brothers

on October 4th 2019, 6:44 pm
@The Ellimist wrote:Dooku was confident that he could take Anakin and Obi Wan together without having to separate them until he realized how much they'd improved since the last time they met (which, thanks to TCW/Legends, was like...a few months ago?). Anakin and Obi Wan would logically have really high levels of synergy, and Obi Wan had previously been using ataru against Dooku, which is hardly a defensive style. It's highly indicated from the novelization that Obi Wan by the Invisible Hand is a step above TCW Obi Wan. Savage may still have an advantage in sheer physical durability, but I'm not sure if his other advantages would still hold, especially if you don't think Obi Wan at least early in the Mustafar fight was operating that far beyond himself as of the Invisible Hand fight.

Now are Dooku's struggles against Savage + Ventress relative to Anakin + Obi Wan in TCW mainly the result of stylistic differences, or another factor like maybe Dooku growing in power through TCW?

Not that I am denying RotS Kenobi is better than TCW Kenobi, but the RotS Novel is hardly definitive proof that RotS Kenobi is a notch above his TCW S6 counter part because the premise of Stover’s depiction of the Invisible Hand fight is that it’s the first time that Anakin and Obi-Wan have collectively met Dooku since AotC, a notion that got retconned by TCW.

Even if we reinterpret Stover’s depiction of the Invisible Hand fight in the light of TCW, Obi-Wan put up a better performance against Dooku because he finally opted to fighting defensively by using Soresu to stonewall Dooku. Dooku’s reaction tells us that Dooku only realised that Obi-Wan was a Soresu master, implying that he was previously unaware of this fact, which makes sense because Obi-Wan didn’t fight defensively against Dooku in their S6 fight. Dooku realised this pretty late because Obi-Wan has been a Soresu master since TCW S4, as confirmed by the 2012 TCW magazine released during the time of that season of the show:

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11128/111280603/5397016-4930433-kenobiabilities.png

But don’t get me wrong, I am not arguing that Kenobi didn’t improve between TCW and RotS.


Last edited by Latham2000 on March 7th 2020, 11:55 am; edited 1 time in total (Reason for editing : Grammatical error)
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