SS - Skywalker Showdown: Luke Skywalker (DarthAnt66) VS Anakin Skywalker (Vaelias)

James Luceno, 2007 Space Station Liberty Podcast interview wrote:"In the Unifying Force, Luke pretty much just goes to the main villain's stronghold and wastes them like there's no tomorrow. That's pretty different from the previous books where Luke was kind of vacillating. Did you decide to change Luke's portrayal there, or was just enough enough?"

"I think it was a combination. But that was the Luke that was missing from a lot of the series... It was important to remind everybody that Luke is the main man when it comes to these things. So, I was very happy that I got to bring him back to where a lot of people wanted him to be." 

I will be representing Luke Skywalker as of New Jedi Order: The Unifying Force (TUF), the final book in the Yuuzhan Vong War storyline. This depiction of Luke by James Luceno brought to the fanbase the common conception of Luke as the most powerful Jedi ever. I hope to show that this widespread assessment is deserved by pitting him against the next best contender: Anakin Skywalker. This Anakin is specifically Anakin at the height of his dark side powers prior to the final confrontation of Mustafar, free of all that emotional baggage caused by Padme and Obi-Wan. 

In TUF, Luke unleashes his full Force powers and fights through the mother of all gauntlets with the aid of Jacen and Jaina Solo: first against an army of possibly thousands of Yuuzhan Vong warriors, then a group of fifteen lightsaber-resistant Yuuzhan Vong Slayers, and finally the Yuuzhan Vong Supreme Overlord Shimrra Jamaane. Luke starts with a full tank and ends fully exhausted... and victorious. 

I. Episode III Anakin’s Power-Level

Per the rules of the debate and Lucasfilm Licensing canon policy, anything George Lucas creates, says, or even thinks is the highest form of canon and takes precedence over EU sources. Accordingly, we can focus on Lucas’ position of Anakin’s powers.

Lucas had many opportunities to comment on Anakin’s powers, namely in:

• 2004 Remastered DVD Commentaries
• 2005 Rolling Stone Interview
• 2005 Vanity Fair Interview
• 2005 Revenge of the Sith DVD Commentary & Featurettes
• The Making of Revenge of the Sith reference book
• Star Wars Archives: Episodes 1-3 reference book
• Indirectly through interviews by Nick Gillard, Matthew Stover, and Dave Filoni

And in these works, Lucas actually does often explicitly bring up Anakin’s powers. Most notably:

George Lucas, 2004 Episode IV DVD commentary wrote:”Vader would’ve become infinitely more powerful if he hadn’t ended up his suit, if he hadn’t become half man, half machine which diminishes his powers considerably, which were the powers the Emperor has."

George Lucas, 2004 Episode V DVD commentary wrote:"Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn’t been debilitated and now he’s half machine and half man, so he’s lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he’s lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor. But Luke hasn’t."

Nick Gillard, 2004 StarWars.com interview wrote:How does one quantify fighting prowess, and does such a quantity have any practical value? When Stunt Coordinator and Sword Master Nick Gillard sets down to script a lightsaber duel, he needs to have some guage as to how competent the combatants are. On equal-footing, such ranking could easily determine the victor. Star Wars duels, however, rarely occur on equal footing or level ground.

"The fighting has evolved in these last three movies considerably," says Gillard. "George Lucas works on a system of levels. So, on The Phantom Menace, Obi-Wan would have been like a level six or seven. Now that we're on Episode III he's actually a level eight. When you move up the levels, it affects the style of fighting."

The level is not necessarily an indication of the performer's talent, but it takes a truly gifted and physically skilled actor to play a powerful Jedi combatant. "Hayden Christensen is one of the best there is," says Gillard. "I've seen hundreds of sword fighters, people who do it for a living, and he leaves them all in his wake. His style has changed a bit since Episode II, when he was only a level seven. On this he's a level nine."

Also a factor in Gillard's development is backstory of the Jedi warriors. The training lineage does show up in the crafting of duels and action. "There's a line of training through Darth Tyranus and Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Anakin. You can follow that line, and there's an aggressive fault in that line. Mace isn't of that line, and that allows you to give him unique talents."

For the curious, Gillard does not reveal any Jedi who has achieved level ten. The highest is nine, occupied by a small number of capable sword masters, including Yoda and Darth Sidious. At so high a ranking, it comes down to individual fighting styles as well as the circumstances of the surroundings that make a difference.

George Lucas, 2005 Rolling Stones interview wrote:"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor—he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

George Lucas, 2005 Vanity Fair interview wrote:“Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

George Lucas, Star Wars Archives: Episodes 1-3 reference book wrote:

"He hears that Padmé died. He got put on the operating table before he got a chance to save her, and she died. So it's more railing at the gods or the fates that 'Given another month, I could've saved her.' He thinks he was powerful enough on the landing platform before Obi-Wan intervened, so he looks at it as bad luck or fate that he couldn’t get the thing accomplished in time to save his wife."

All these quotes profess the existence of an understanding of Force power that is (1) generalizable to a single dimension [blue text], (2) quantifiable [red text], (3) the sole relevant consideration for Sith when choosing partners for duels [orange text], (4) usable across characters with very different relationships to the Force, like Anakin vs Vader vs the Emperor vs Luke, and (5) deemed sufficient for in-universe characters and the audience alike to understand the respective power-levels and motivations of characters. So, let’s rejoice! We already have half our work done for us. Regardless of how complex the inputs are — a character’s relationship to the Living Force versus the Cosmic Force, a character’s natural talent versus willpower and effort, etc. — we know the outputs for several characters. We can then even assess the accuracy of different input models based on how well it conforms to these outputs.

Vaelias is well-known for his elaborate “Force mechanics” that conclude Anakin is the most powerful character in the verse due to being the focal point of all the galaxy’s energy (not even true in itself). I look forward to reading the arguments in-depth but ultimately, saying, “Actually, there is a key element to Anakin’s power that Lucas is not bringing up,” is already set to be either irrelevant or impossible. Either (1) all those “Force mechanics” are already baked in Lucas’ model and still doesn’t change the fact that Anakin is explicitly not “extremely powerful” nor “very powerful” nor a “really super guy” nor 2x more powerful than the Emperor but instead, practically, exactly as powerful as the Emperor and with powers that Cin Drallig and Obi-Wan can block. Or, (2) Lucas just doesn’t agree with your “Force mechanics.”

This is a case where absence of evidence is indeed evidence of absence. Lucas clearly wants to talk about the power-level dynamics of Anakin, the Emperor, Vader, and Luke. He brings it up in most of his available opportunities. And he goes out of his way to tell people like Hayden Blackman how to think of Anakin versus Vader. If Lucas thought Anakin was Top Dog because he’s the fulcrum of universal energies, he would mention that somewhere! But he never says anything remotely related to that. Not once. 

We also have tens of hours of footage of Nick Gillard, Matthew Stover, James Luceno, and Dave Filoni talking about Force powers and what they learned from talking with Lucas. And despite speaking to quite in-depth Force mechanics, again no one says anything remotely related to what you are talking about. Instead, Gillard has recently said the Emperor is a step above Anakin if anything, Stover has said a fight between Anakin and Mace is overall very close [green text], and Filoni has said that he never thought of Anakin as particularly very powerful. (Again, the point isn't that they think Anakin is near Mace or below the Emperor—the point is that they are obviously not aware of some underlying Force theory that necessitates Anakin's supremacy.) These “Force mechanics” are either just utterly not important or not true.

Nick Gillard, 2023 Star Wars Theory interview wrote:https://youtu.be/wtTjZtqvkic?si=jHRoh9YZJ9_VTM_H&t=2662 44:22

"I'd have Mace just under Anakin and Yoda. But Palpatine is a whole-other level. To me, Palpatine is a whole-other level."

Matthew Stover, 2022 Star Wars Theory interview wrote:"It is canonical that Anakin has trans-human reflexes. He is the only human to ever finish the pod race and at eight. And he is popularly considered the greatest fighter pilot in the galaxy in A New Hope. So, Anakin has the definite edge. And his innate aggressiveness would fairly well counter Mace's. That's the key to Mace's fighting style: his overwhelming ability to attack aggressively from many directions at once. If anyone could be capable of matching that hand-to-hand, it's probably Anakin. I'm not sure if I would give Anakin an edge over Mace, but I think it'd be a very even fight. Different styles. Also, Anakin's Force powers are operating on a higher level. Mace's is more precise but Anakin's just tremendously powerful."

And so, Anakin is “as strong as the Emperor” and has “the powers the Emperor has" [purple text]. In fighting ability, Lucas ranks Anakin and the Emperor as both level 9s on a 10-level scale [purple text].

Never does Lucas suggest that Anakin lost power or fighting ability between the part of the movie where we never even see him fight besides a five second hologram and the big final duel. He freely speaks of Anakin in general terms, in varying contexts, and without fail places Anakin right with the Emperor. Lucas even speaks to Anakin’s dark side power-progression very chronologically, power building on power as tests are completed:

George Lucas, Star Wars Archives: Episodes 1-3 wrote:“You can become more powerful but you must pass this first test. The first test is you must kill your mother. The second test: you have to kill your wife. And the third test: you have to kill your best friend." In the end you have all this power but you have nobody to share it with, except some wizened old man who's even more evil than you are."

That is not to say Lucas doesn’t think the contextual circumstances around the Mustafar duel didn’t have any deliberating effects; rather, it didn’t affect his pure power or fighting ability. The only source that comments on this, the Episode III junior novel, has Anakin's dark side emotions even explicitly increasing his raw power. 

Episode III: Revenge of the Sith junior novelization wrote:The words stabbed at Obi-Wan, even though he knew that Anakin was speaking out of his own pain. He felt the dark side grow stronger, feeding on his despair.

So, per Lucas’ own words, using his own dimension and scale:

Darth Vader: 80
Episode III Anakin: 100
Episode III Emperor: 100
Full potential Luke: well above 100

We can simplify it to just these numbers because Lucas does.

And so the only question remaining powerwise is how much did Luke realize of his potential?

II. TUF Luke’s Power-Level

A. Dark Side Growth

Quotes on Luke’s Force potential:

George Lucas, 2005 Vanity Fair interview wrote:“Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

George Lucas, 2005 Rolling Stones interview wrote:"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor—he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

George Lucas, 2004 Episode V DVD commentary wrote:"Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn’t been debilitated and now he’s half machine and half man, so he’s lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he’s lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor. But Luke hasn’t."

Quotes on Luke and Vader versus the Emperor:

George Lucas, 1982 Making of Return of the Jedi wrote:“What is operating in his head is: ‘The Emperor will turn Luke to the dark side because I can’t do it, because I am not strong enough; he will turn Luke and then I will be able to join with Luke and eventually turn him to destroy the Emperor. Once he is on the dark side, then it will be easy; then we are a team, then we are father and son.’”

George Lucas, 1982 Making of Return of the Jedi wrote:“He knows that if he gets into a lazer fight with the Emperor, he won’t win. He knows his son can’t win. Neither one of them can beat the Emperor. Together they might.”

Other quotes relevant to Luke’s powers:

The Emperor, Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back wrote:"We have a new enemy - Luke Skywalker... He could destroy us... The Force is strong with him. The son of Skywalker must not become a Jedi."

Darth Vader, Episode V: The Empire Strikes Back wrote:“Luke. You can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this. It is your destiny.  Join me, and together we can rule the galaxy as father and son.”

Episode VI: Return of the Jedi adult novelization wrote:Luke paused, for he saw something else, as well; something he hadn't seen before in the Emperor. Fear.

Luke saw fear in the Emperor - fear of Luke. Fear of Luke's power, fear that this power could be turned on him - on the Emperor - in the same way Vader had turned it on Obi-Wan Kenobi. Luke saw this fear in the Emperor - and he knew, now, the odds had shifted slightly. He had glimpsed the Emperor's nakedest self.

With sudden absolute calm, Luke stood upright. He stared directly into the malign ruler's hood.

Palpatine said nothing for a few moments, returning the young Jedi's gaze, assessing his strengths and weaknesses.

Darth Vader's perspective, Episode VI: Return of the Jedi adult novelization wrote:Luke wasn't ready for that, emotionally. There was still a chance Luke would return to his friends if he destroyed the Emperor now. He needed more extensive tutelage, first - training by both Vader and Palpatine - before he'd be ready to assume his place at Vader's right hand, ruling the galaxy.

To summarize, per Lucas directly:

• Anakin would have become “twice as good as the Emperor” but he got maimed. Vader is instead “maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor.” With Luke, the Emperor can get “a more primo version.”
• The Emperor wants “somebody who would be more powerful than he was.” Anakin was already “as strong as the Emperor” in Episode III, but then he got maimed. But Luke “could become” what Anakin “was supposed to become.”
• Luke “hasn’t” “lost a lot of his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor,” meaning he can be.
• The Emperor believes Luke “can destroy us.” Vader interprets this as in a fighting context, saying, “You can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this.” (Note that based on Episode VI drafts, this is actually the Emperor using the royal we, meaning he is saying, “Luke can destroy me.)
• Though the difficulty is inconsistent (“might” versus “easy”), Vader’s whole plan in Episode VI is for the Emperor to turn Luke to the dark side so that Vader and Luke can then team up. Per Lucas, Vader believes it “will be easy” to kill the Emperor because “we are a team,” or at least “might” be able to, whereas Vader “knows” he cannot alone.*

* (If one accepts the premise that a dark side Luke could one-day certainly destroy the Emperor, that means the “might” must be referring to Luke and Vader teaming up within Episode VI itself. The surrounding context of the “might” already presumes that Luke and Vader have teamed up. So, the only situation where it could even be a “might” is if Luke joins Vader during the film. This makes sense as Episode VI was marketed as the “final chapter of the Star Wars saga.” Vader must be granted by Lucas the possibility of materializing his plan within the film, or else the audience would already know he lost... an ending where all three of them still live with the final fight sometime in the future is not a true ending.)

And, per the Episode VI novel:

• The Emperor “fears Luke’s power” and that it could be turned on the Emperor the same way Vader turned on Ben Kenobi, and this fear captures the Emperor’s “nakedest self.”
• Vader is very confident that a Luke who had “more extensive tutelage” under him and the Emperor would be able to destroy the Emperor, at least with his help.

Thus, to put it more succinctly, Luke has the Force potential to sufficiently replace Anakin and become at least distinctively more powerful than the Emperor. Lucas offers the following time-scales:

Defeat the Emperor alone as a Jedi: within twenty-five years (discussed in part B), but perhaps even within 13 years as the Emperor is only elated with the discovery of Episode 1 Anakin but greatly fears Luke.

Defeat the Emperor alone as a Sith: obviously much faster than as a Jedi.

Defeat the Emperor in a team-up with Vader as a Sith: quite possibly during the battle of Endor itself. But at least within a few years, as the longer Vader plans, the more likely his plan would fall apart—with the Emperor as Master Schemer, Luke developing a deeper relationship with the Emperor, and the general disaster of having three Sith around.



Luke does become the reborn Emperor’s apprentice to "know the dark side's ways and finds its weaknesses" and is filled with so much knowledge that he ends up "perhaps learning more about the dark side than he wants to know." Luke becomes "consumed by anger and hate," "follows his father's path," and says he "found knowledge, all the dark things father knew so well," overall learning "the depths of the dark side." Luke “had done and and experienced greater evil than perhaps any man had known.” Luke was so thoroughly corrupted that his very consciousness was buried deep within himself, wholly unaware of his location and forgetful of his very identity as Luke Skywalker. This is a level of dark side submersion far deeper than Anakin's and akin to the Episode VI novel’s characterization of Vader, who had long forgotten his memories as Anakin and even the existence of Padme. And Luke’s understanding of the dark side is not superficial, for he is able to “transmute and turn” all his lessons against the Emperor as a Jedi, signifying high-level mastery to reverse-engineer everything into its light side counterparts.

Anakin is someone equally powerful as the Emperor.

TUF Luke is someone more powerful than the Emperor. By this point, Luke is beyond even the most conservative figures for when he should have outstripped the Emperor, despite fully wielding the dark side in power and knowledge anyway (explained in section III)*.

* (Again, explained in section III. But basically, TUF Luke is explicitly able to incorporate all the raw power that comes with the dark side without becoming corrupted by it.)

B. Light Side Growth

George Lucas, December 1977 Making of The Empire Strikes Back wrote:

"Tend to go in the direction that the trilogy will end with Vader getting killed. In this film we will work on setting up the final fight which will eventually come. We are going to turn Luke into Ben. He's going to become Merlin, Gandalf, Father, Magician, Superman, but in his youth he's not as wise as he might be. In the evolution of the series, his prowess becomes less, but his mind and the mystical side of him become more and he will obviously take it further than Ben did."

(Special thanks to Darth Durin's Baneling and Syndicate for this quote.)

George Lucas, August 1977 Making of Star Wars wrote:

“The Force is a perception of the reality that exists around us. You have to come to learn it. It’s not something you just get. It takes many, many years. Luke is on the road to knowing the Force, but it will be another twenty years before he actually begins to cope with it on a real level. He’s still an amateur. As far as Luke knows, Ben is the last of the Jedi Knights. But there could be more. Obviously Darth Vader knows the Force, but as far as we know at this point, Luke is one of the last surviving apprentices of the Force.”

George Lucas, October 1979 Alan Arnold interview wrote:

"There are essentially nine films in a series of three trilogies. The first trilogy is about the young Ben Kenobi and the early life of Luke's father when Luke was a little boy. This trilogy takes place some twenty years before the second trilogy which includes Star Wars and Empire. About a year or two passes between each story of the trilogy and about twenty years pass between the trilogies. The entire saga spans about fifty-five years."

Lucas says that during his sequel trilogy, which would have been set twenty years after the original trilogy, Luke would  "obviously take it further than Ben did" and "become Merlin, Gandalf, Father, Magician, Superman.” These characters are the most powerful of their respective verses besides true deities and have supreme supernatural powers. Lucas also says that Luke will defeat the Emperor in the sequel trilogy. These ideas go hand-in-hand: Luke becomes the Good Supreme Wizard and topples the Evil Supreme Wizard.

In another interview, Lucas says that it would take Luke "another twenty years" from Episode IV to "cope with the Force on a real level." So, Lucas’ twenty years figure seems locked-in.

Although these are older quotes, Lucas’ conception of the Emperor by 1977 is not much different than his modern one. Lucas still regards 1977 Emperor as “the personification of the bad side of the Force,” “even more powerful than Vader,” “the classic devil character, a hooded, dark figure,” and as a level 6 on a 10-scale, “on his way to becoming a 10, which will be a force so powerful in the universe that nothing can stop him.” Moreover, the fact he would have Luke defeat the Emperor in Episode IX suggests the Emperor would have grown radically more powerful than his Episode V self anyway. And there’s not much indication that Lucas has negatively revised his opinion of Luke’s Force potential. The only apparent change is turning his father from a “powerful Jedi Knight” to a virgin-birth Chosen One, making Luke even more special.

These interviews were during a time when Lucas regarded Ben as the "personification of the light side of the Force" and the Emperor's counterpart (note that Lucas thought Ben to be far more powerful than Vader), so Ben is also ranked a level 6. Thus, when Lucas says that Luke will outstrip Ben, that means Luke will very explicitly also outstrip the Emperor. Although Lucas later revises his rankings for Episode VI, it's important to remember that the Emperor is already locked-in as the Evil Supreme Wizard. It's instead Ben who changes, being replaced with Yoda and now dropped to "warrior" level with Episode VI Luke and Vader. So, the 'peak Luke > level 6 Emperor' link should stand. And besides, the Emperor by 29 ABY should be much closer to a level 10 anyway, but Luke is still above. 

This twenty years figure—more precisely, 20 ABY for Luke to begin dealing with the Force at a “real level” and 23 ABY to 29 ABY for him to become the Good Supreme Wizard and topple the Emperor—aligns perfectly with The Unifying Force, set in 29 ABY.



The key difference between Lucas’ Luke and the EU’s Luke being EU Luke has done virtually everything conceivable up until the start of NJO. He has confronted a dozen super-powerful Force users of every discipline and endless Imperial Remnant forces. He has utterly fallen to the dark side and learned the darkest secrets of the Emperor. He has realized the power of redemption and love, the true interconnectedness of the Force and how to join with it as a luminous being. He has communed with Jedi survivors and spirits, recovered several forgotten libraries of Jedi knowledge, and trained dozens to Jedi Knighthood. He has been pushed to the brink of death, despair, or defeat more times than anyone on record. Which is to say that, some mechanism blocking his powers aside, Luke should have realistically realized his Good Supreme Wizard status long before 29 ABY.

Luke’s portrayal in the New Republic series varies significantly by author. But toward the end, he was often portrayed as having effectively limitless power in a way reminiscent of the Emperor. They have him fight villains repeatedly likened to the Emperor in power with a fraction of his strength, effortlessly rebuild and destroy mountain-size castles, cast permanent illusions over 1500 meter ships, tear off the hulls of Star Destroyers, among other feats. And this Good Supreme Wizard Luke angle was acknowledged by Star Wars officials and authors. High-ranking Lucasfilm official Shelly Shapiro notes authors had to deliberately weaken Luke “to make any fight fair enough to be even interesting” because Luke “was so all-powerful.” Shapiro also says that Luke was "impossible to deal with" writing-wise "since he'd become so omnipotent” and that Luke was “practically omnipotent.” Even Thrawn author Timothy Zahn, certified Luke Hater Enthusiast, became annoyed that Luke was a "superman-type character" and "too powerful" who could "just wave his hand and fix the problem on page four," and so sought to have a “final say” on the character by deliberating nerfing him for the Hand of Thrawn Duology. This is all to emphasize that it’s not as if Luke spontaneously became the Good Supreme Wizard in TUF, but rather that authors had been chewing on the idea since the 90s and it got markedly codified in TUF.

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III. TUF Luke’s (and Anakin's) Fighting Abilities 

Luke’s final state in TUF is prompted by a discussion with Jacen. To summarize:

• Jacen tells Luke that Luke fears falling to the dark side but that Vergere contends there is no dark side. Rather, what the Jedi call the dark side is just the raw, unrestrained Force. 
• Luke reflects that he has associated anger with the dark side since Dark Empire and instead perhaps the dark side can be jettisoned by self-awareness. He concludes his fear has held him back from incorporating the raw, unrestrained Force into his awareness. 
• Luke continues saying that even Vergere’s conception of the Force is limited to the physical world but they are truly beings of light, the PT Jedi Order’s emphasis on control blinded them to the Unifying Force, his past Force fatigue stems from his fear of abusing his raw, unrestrained Force, and while nature finds a balance in the Force, the light side and the dark side are real and materialize through sentience.
• Luke and Jacen conclude that likely through the Unifying Force, Force spirits exist and Jedi have power to glimpse the future. 

When we see Luke in battle next, he is completely changed.

The Unifying Force wrote:In most places the stairway wasn't wide enough for the two people to stand abreast, and in those stretches Luke had to face the brunt of the attacks.

He was his own vortex, deflecting amphistaff strikes, whiplike lashes, and spurts of deadly venom; dodging or redirecting flights of thud bugs; parrying the thrusts of coufees, to sidestep, duck, maneuver his body in ways that seemed to defy gravity. Stunned or burned by Luke's green blade, thud bugs were ricocheting from the walls and high ceiling, chipping away at the yorik coral surface.

Dropped in their tracks, warriors sprawled with hands pressed to stumps of legs and opened foreheads, or with black blood welling where the lightsaber had found defenseless areas between living armor and tattooed flesh. Jacen recalled watching his uncle on Belkadan, where the war had begun, wielding two lightsabers when he had come to Jacen's rescue.

But the rescue on Belkadan paled in comparison to the control Luke demonstrated now. His single blade might as well have been ten, or twenty. He took the steps at a lightning pace, burning his way through dilating membranes but in complete control of his momentum. Seen through the Force he was a maelstrom of luminous energy, a Force storm against which there was no shelter. And yet all his energy poured from a calm center; an eye.

He made no missteps. None of his actions were interrupted by thought. In fact, Luke didn't seem to be there at all-physically or as an individual personality. Jacen and Jaina were astounded-but they had little time to reflect. Their lightsabers were busy, as well, turning the blows Luke dodged, or defending assaults launched from below. On the fourteenth level, where the Citadel's exterior wings sprouted from the hull, they reached a fork in the stairway. Luke swung to Jacen.

"Which way?" He wasn't even breathing heavily.

The rest of my post will be breaking that down. 

• Luke “was his own vortex” and “a maelstrom of luminous energy, a Force storm against which there was no shelter.”
• “All” of Luke’s “energy poured from a calm center; an eye.”
• “None” of Luke’s “actions were interrupted by thought” and he “didn’t seem to be there at all—physically or as an individual personality” 
• Per the Essential Reader’s Companion: “Luke gives himself fully to the Force, becoming a whirlwind of devastation, slashing through Yuuzhan Vong guards.”

According to Vergere, the power of the dark side is the raw, unrestrained Force, just misnamed. According to Luke, and seemingly accepted by Jacen, the power of the dark side is the raw, unrestrained Force that is then tainted by evil intentions. Thus, it's possible to wield the practical power of the dark side without being corrupted if one can embrace the raw, unrestrained Force without being seduced to do evil. Luke has believed this is a nigh-impossible task since Dark Empire, but he tries anew and succeeds. 

Luke succeeds by bringing forth the raw, unrestrained Force “from” a “calm” and introspective center. Typically, such raw power is brought forth through willpower, forcing it through oneself like a Sith. But Luke is calm, watchful. The dynamic begets the facilitator of Luke’s raw power to be the alternate: true submission into the Force; a release of self, a losing of the sentience that Luke identifies as the source of the dark side. And indeed, the fight was preceded by discussion of the merits of the Unifying Force, Luke’s actions were devoid of thought, and Luke’s self was explicitly altogether absent. Altogether, Luke manages to wield the power of the dark side without being corrupted by emptying himself of “Luke.”

There’s another character who has a similar description when fighting: Matthew Stover’s Obi-Wan. 

Episode III: Revenge of the Sith adult novelization wrote:Instantly the box of bodyguards around Obi-Wan filled with crackling electrostaffs whipping faster than the human eye could see-which was less troublesome than it might have been, for that box was already empty of Jedi.

The Force had let him collapse as though he'd suddenly fainted, then it brought his lightsaber from his belt to his hand and ignited it while he turned his fall into a roll; that roll carried his lightsaber through a crisp arc that severed the leg of one of the bodyguards, and as the Force brought Obi-Wan back to his feet, the Force also nudged the crippled bodyguard to topple sideways into the path of the blade and sent it clanging to the floor in two smoking, sparking pieces. One down.

The remaining three pressed the attack, but more cautiously; their weapons were longer than his, and they struck from beyond the reach of his blade. He gave way before them, his defensive velocities barely keeping their crackling discharge blades at bay.

Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes that operated near lightspeed, each with hypersophisticated heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situation, were certainly beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat, but it was not Obi-Wan who would defeat them; Obi-Wan wasn't even fighting. He was only a vessel, emptied of self. The Force, shaped by his skill and guided by his clarity of mind, fought through him.

In the Force, he felt their destruction: it was somewhere above and behind him, and only seconds away.

He went to meet it with a backflipping leap that the Force used to lift him neatly to an empty droid socket in the ceiling hive. The MagnaGuards sprang after him but he was gone by the time they arrived, leaping higher into the maze of girders and cables and room-sized cargo containers that was the control center's superstructure.

Here, said the Force within him, and Obi-Wan stopped, balancing on a girder, frowning back at the oncoming killer droids that leapt from beam to beam below him like malevolent dura-steel primates. Though he could feel its close approach, he had no idea from where their destruction might come . . . until the Force showed him a support beam within reach of his blade and whispered, Now.

His blade flicked out and the durasteel beam parted, fresh-cut edges glowing white hot, and a great hulk of ship-sized cargo container that the beam had been supporting tore free of its other supports with shrieks of anguished metal and crashed down upon all three MagnaGuards with the finality of a meteor strike.

Two, three, and four.

Oh, thought Obi-Wan with detached approval. That worked out rather well.

Only ten thousand to go. Give or take. An instant later the Force had him hurtling through a storm of blasterfire as every combat droid in the control center opened up on him at once.

Letting go of intention, letting go of desire, letting go of life, Obi-Wan fixed his entire attention on a thread of the Force that pulled him toward Grievous: not where Grievous was, but where Grievous would be when Obi-Wan got there . . .

In Stover’s characterization of Obi-Wan, Obi-Wan repeatedly empties himself of “Obi-Wan” and becomes a pure conduit of the Force. The Force tells him where to go, what to do, and Obi-Wan, purged of conscious intention or reservation, simply follows through. 

By all indicators, Stover certainly does not think Obi-Wan has the skill or power of Anakin or Mace Windu. The passage above points out defeating the droid army was plainly beyond Obi-Wan’s ability. And later, when Obi-Wan fights Grievous, Stover writes that Obi-Wan’s blade was “never truly fast.” Meanwhile, Stover calls Anakin perhaps the fastest and most powerful Jedi ever and the greatest warrior in galactic history. He writes Mace as having “unmatched skills with a lightsaber,” and he believes Mace bested the Emperor fair-and-square (link). 

Yet when asked in an interview who wins in a fight, Obi-Wan or Mace, Stover promised that the Episode III novel would definitively provide an answer. It’s apparent that the answer is Obi-Wan. In the novel, Mace praises Obi-Wan as having no weaknesses and the “best chance” of defeating Grievous of “any living Jedi.” And then in a 2023 interview, Stover says that that his favorite character is Obi-Wan, you can’t read the Episode III novel without realizing that, and points out “he is literally described by the author as the ‘ultimate Jedi.’” Stover also reflects on the Invisible Hand bridge scene, paraphrasing, “Obi-Wan gives himself to the Force, and that’s how he wins. He opens himself up, becomes a window to the Force.” Stover says that was one of his favorite passages he ever wrote and links it back to why he loves Obi-Wan so much. 

Matthew Stover, 2021 StarWarsReport.com interview wrote:https://www.starwarsreport.com/2021/04/07/revenge-of-the-sith-novel-w-matthew-stover-twl-420/  01:09:49

"You also see him grow into, by Revenge of the Sith, the only person who could have stood up against Anakin. In my opinion and I don't think there would be many people who would argue with me, at least not people whose opinion I respect... Obi-Wan is the only person who could have beaten Anakin. That was it. And you see him by the end.. you can see where the Alec Guinness version of the character is coming from." 

And Stover still writes Obi-Wan is “the only person who could have stood up against Anakin” and “is the only person who could have beaten Anakin.” To Stover, Obi-Wan’s strengths is how he is able to defeat the otherwise undefeatable Anakin, not Anakin’s contextual weaknesses, which he never brings up in any interview. And when asked by a fan, “Anakin is the most powerful Jedi ever, how does Obi Wan stack up against him in your book?” Stover responds, “Obi-Wan is my favorite character. He has always been my favorite character… It’s Mr. Lucas’ story where Obi-Wan steps up and takes his rightful place as one of the pivotal heroes of the entire Star Wars saga. He is the ultimate Jedi.” To Stover, Obi-Wan versus Anakin is far more about the awesomeness of Obi-Wan than the failures of Anakin. 

The droid army was “certainly beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat, but it was not Obi-Wan who would defeat them; Obi-Wan wasn't even fighting.”

It’s Obi-Wan’s ability to rise beyond himself by giving himself to the Force that makes him the ultimate Jedi. 

Though this begs of a no-limits fallacy, the text clearly defines that the Force is “shaped by his skill and guided by his clarity of mind.” The vessel is still Obi-Wan and that still matters. The limits of Obi-Wan’s skill are still the limits of Obi-Wan’s skill. But the implementation, the theoretical knowledge being realized onto reality, is practically perfected by the Force. (This also explains why Obi-Wan can defeat Anakin and Grievous but not Dooku or the Emperor.)

With his decision-making likewise replaced by the Force’s, TUF Luke should similarly always perform the best possible move accomplishable at his skill level. It’s not Luke making the moves—Luke's not even there. It’s the Force. 

Justin Lambros, 2005 IGN interview wrote:"Obi-Wan, on the other hand, is the consummate hero. It's his speed, precision, and unshakeable focus that allow him to handle challenges that Jedi more powerful than him could never face."

Sam Witwer, Rebel Force Radio interview wrote:"What's awesome about Obi-Wan, and it's consistent through the Clone Wars, they always say 'he's one of the best, but he's not the best - he's not the best of the best. He's not the best swordsman. He's not the best pilot. But he's really good. But he has these A-game moments.' Well, we just saw an A-game moment (Obi-Wan vs Darth Maul in The Phantom Menace). There's another one, for example, in the Clone Wars, he loses his first fight to Darth Maul pretty hardcore. He does not even hold a candle to Darth Maul when him and Ventress fight Savage and Maul. He loses. But the next time he fights, he's up against Savage and Maul, and his Jedi partner had been killed - Adi Gallia had just been killed - and just like Qui-Gon Jinn, Obi-Wan then has his A-game moment and stands up to Darth Maul and Savage and drives them off. I like that the character elements are consistent about what activates these people, about when they are at their best and when they are not."

Dave Filoni, Rebel Force Radio interview wrote:"So Obi Wan loses Qui Gon to Darth Maul and is just suddnly empowered to defeat him, Adi Gallia dies the same way, same thing happens, was that kind of intentional? This sense of loss kind of empowering?-"

"Not really. I think it was a lot of focus, courage and being a hero and kindness."

The premise that Obi-Wan rises above himself is not exclusive to Stover. It’s also the position of Episode III video game lead Justin Lambros (who had extensive talks with Nick Gillard about Obi-Wan’s powers) and Dave Filoni. And though they don’t speak to the Force emptying take, they do mutually attribute this rallying to Obi-Wan’s focus and kindness. Stover, too, picks up on that as the other dimension of Obi-Wan’s greatness, the fact he is “fundamentally a deeply kind person.” He continues by saying, “That is Luke’s superpower—Luke’s superpower is that he deeply cares about everyone and wants to save them.”

It’s not just that TUF Luke has a sexy fighting mindset that essentially auto-pilot finds the best move, but that this exact fighting mindset is the proven foil to Anakin’s own. "KFV" may be able to take Yoda or the Emperor, but Obi-Wan is his Achilles Heel, and Luke can step into those same shoes. 

• Luke “made no missteps”

In chess, engines typically evaluate moves as one of the following: best move, excellent move, good move, interesting move, dubious move, mistake, blunder, fatal error. To make no missteps doesn’t necessarily mean every move is the best move, but it does mean there’s at least no mistakes, blunders, or fatal errors going on. 

The fact Obi-Wan “never makes a mistake” (Justin Lambros) and “doesn’t make mistakes” (Nick Gillard) is frequently cited as a key reason why Obi-Wan is able to defeat Anakin. Because despite being the better fighter, Anakin does make mistakes. Of course, fans like to discuss “KFV” as Anakin without the many contextual weaknesses of the Mustafar duel. And he is that. But he’s not a perfect fighter. 

Episode III: Revenge of the Sith adult novelization wrote:As the shadow beside him spoke, its words became true. From a remote, frozen distance that was at the same time more extravagantly, hotly intimate than he could have ever dreamed, Anakin handled his emotions. He dissected them. He reassembled them and pulled them apart again. He still felt them-if anything, they burned hotter than before-but they no longer had the power to cloud his mind.

Episode III: Revenge of the Sith adult novelization wrote:The Sith Lord who once had been a Jedi hero called Anakin Skywalker stood, drawing himself up to his full height, but he looked not outward upon his new Master, nor upon the planet-city beyond, nor out into the galaxy that they would soon rule. He instead turned his gaze inward: he unlocked the furnace gate within his heart and stepped forth to regard with new eyes the cold freezing dread of the dead-star dragon that had haunted his life.

I am Darth Vader, he said within himself.

The dragon tried again to whisper of failure, and weakness, and inevitable death, but with one hand the Sith Lord caught it, crushed away its voice; it tried to rise then, to coil and rear and strike, but the Sith Lord laid his other hand upon it and broke its power with a single effortless twist.

I am Darth Vader, he repeated as he ground the dragon's corpse to dust beneath his mental heel, as he watched the dragon's dust and ashes scatter before the blast from his furnace heart, and you-You are nothing at all.

He had become, finally, what they all called him.

The Hero With No Fear.

KFV is attributed the ability to effortlessly dissect and reassemble his emotions and be free of fear of failure, weakness, or death. But he’s not free of vulnerability altogether. When Gillard emphasizes that Anakin is a tier 9 physically but not mentally, that’s still true for KFV. It’s not the contextual circumstances on Mustafar—doubt over whether he’s on the right path, Padme’s apparent betrayal, fighting his best friend—that is Anakin’s core issue. Gillard’s comments are all isolated from that, speaking to the character generally.

Nick Gillard, assortment of interviews wrote:
“Hayden in this film has moved up to a level 9. He has gone past Obi. And the difference between a level 8 and a level 9, really, is the dark side. You have to go through each level to attain the next level and if you do it too quick, you gonna get into trouble, so his downfall is going to be aggression.”

"Obi-Wan has gone up one level from Episode I to Episode III, but it’s a huge jump from one level to another. It’s not just about a style of fighting—it’s mental as well. Anakin has gone up probably four levels from Episode II to Episode III. So he’s gone beyond Obi-Wan, but he hasn’t gone beyond him mentally."

"Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented -- but he hasn't learned the mental side of it."

“I did take it to 8 and 9, but not many people know that. 8 and 9 are a cheat... The difference between 7 to 8 and 8 to 9 is enormous... They’re enlightened, they’ve done it the right way. They’ve learned how to be enlightened. But if you take LSD, you can get to that place for a few hours, but you’ve cheated your way there. That’s how I see with Anakin, his training wasn’t good enough – he was too old, he got trained too late, twisted by the dark-side. He took Force-LSD. That’s what made him a 9. That’s dangerous because he hasn’t done it the right way, but it’s still a 9. It’s still something you need to deal with.”

Anakin did not go through level 8 before attaining level 9. He learned the fighting. But he went through it too quick. He didn't learn the mental side of it. He skipped some essential steps. He cheated his way there and hasn't done it the right way. So he gets in trouble. And that trouble manifests in his aggression. He is too aggressive. His downfall is his aggression. Meanwhile, Obi-Wan has taken the time to learn everything he needs to learn so he is more controlled. Yoda is also controlled. The signal of mastering the mental side of the tier is control. Anakin doesn’t have control—he has aggression. 

A seeming difficulty with figuring out KFV is that we don’t ever see him fight, a few seconds in a miniaturized hologram aside. He’s a theoretical character who is never put to the test.

But that’s not actually true.

It’s a little known fact that the Mustafar duel was reshot from Nick Gillard’s original conception. In the original, Anakin is deeply dispassionate, cold and indifferent to Obi-Wan and Padme. He turns his back to Padme as he chokes and discards her, a blank expression on his face. He fights at a slow walking pace or still and standing upright. He utterly forgoes all the bladework fundamentals. In fact, the only emotion Anakin shows is a slight smile on his face as he ignites his lightsaber. I encourage any reader to watch how different Anakin is portrayed for themselves: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YDxiTsQiacI. It is apparent that Lucas directed Gillard to change the fight to make Anakin much more emotional, enraged, and altogether intense. 

Nick Gillard, Episode III: Revenge of the Sith video game prima guide wrote:"Anakin's style has changed completely between Episode II and Episode III. He now no longer cares. He knows he's unbeatable. He's far more dangerous than anybody in the universe."

This famous Anakin descriptor is dated to Gillard’s original conception of Anakin, before the reshoots. It matches perfectly with what we see in the above Mustafar duel.

In the film, Gillard’s original conception is still preserved in the Cin Drallig fight. No reshoots were done for that. And indeed, Anakin shows all the same characteristics against Drallig as he did against Obi-Wan. He is dispassionate, forgoing the basics, and fights with the self-assuredness that he knows he is the best. And this is the same Anakin that Stover differentiates as “KFV,” an Anakin without fear. Thus, the way Gillard characterizes Anakin, canonized through the small hologram on the big screen, completes Stover’s character and sets how KFV fights. 

And therefore, we can use the Mustafar duel archival footage Anakin as a faithful extension of the Anakin who fought Cin Drallig, for it is an Anakin of identical mindset, sculpted from the same vision. It is an Anakin plainly emotionless to the current situation, wholly given to the dark side. 

So, let’s pick apart that fight to see how KFV versus Obi-Wan plays out. 

But first circling back around to Anakin not being a mental level 9, remember that’s always been true. That uncontrolled aggression need not necessarily manifest through acting like a bull, consumed with emotion, running at Obi-Wan with a trillion strikes per second. Rather, for KFV, it manifests more simply through the fact Anakin “knows he’s the best,” as Gillard puts it. 

A controlled Anakin—typified in Anakin against Dooku, who is fully present and focused, intimidated by the threat he is facing and using that fear for greater power—very-well may find the best move every time. He does against Dooku. But KFV isn’t controlled like that—he’s unlocked the full power of the dark side too fast. KFV may forgo the true best move because:

(A) he wants to show he is better by deliberately not choosing the best move:


“I have the advantage but I’m not going to press it since I don’t need to.”


“I’m going to just hold my sword out in front of me with little effo- oh shit, I lost my sword.”

(B) he is too caught up in himself and the dark side, too aggressive, and isn’t slowing down and actually deciphering the best move: 


“‘I’m going to slap his saber to the side and neutralize his attack- oh shit.”


“I’m going to just overpower him here- oh shit.”

(C) he thinks the move selection doesn’t matter because he will win anyway. 


“I’m so good, let me do this little saber twirl since you can’t handle my pow- oh shit.”


“I’m so good, let me do this little saber twirl since you aren’t a threat to m- oh shit.”

(D) he thinks his move is better:


“You underestimate my powe- and that’s a wrap…”

KFV demonstrably makes dubious moves, mistakes, blunders, and a fatal error. Missteps can indeed be had independent of the fear and rage factors clouding Anakin in the final cut of the film. These missteps are not born from a lack of ability, not even in spite of it, but because Anakin has too much ability for his own good. 

But TUF Luke doesn’t make mistakes. Theoretically, demonstrably, and explicitly. At the most extreme minimum, he can fight like Obi-Wan did. Take into himself Anakin’s attacks and wait for the inevitable mistake. And unlike Cin Drallig or Obi-Wan, Luke is capable enough to seize on it.

The Unifying Force (abridged) wrote:Lunging, the thick, three-meter-long amphistaff wound itself around Luke's torso, pinning his right arm and lightsaber hilt to his side, the green blade aimed at the floor. Just in time, Luke managed to get his left hand gripped on the snake's uppermost coils and the head as it loosed volumes of venom at him. But Luke was rapidly being squeezed to death by the amphistaff.

Shimrra reached into the folds of his hide cape-and extracted a lightsaber!

Jacen was too stunned to respond; too disheartened to move. Shimrra waved the blade close to Luke's head. Luke removed his left hand from the amphistaff's throat to grab Shimrra's right wrist. The serpentine weapon immediately stiffened and plunged itself into the left side of Luke's chest.

Luke screamed in pain.

The Supreme Overlord reared back to gloat: "One thrust and the deed is done!"

Then all at once, Anakin's lightsaber flew from Shimrra's grip into Luke's left hand. Through his Vongsense, Jacen could feel Shimrra's astonishment and dismay. In a motion almost too swift for Jacen's eyes to follow, Luke slit the throat of Shimrra's amphistaff.

And we know TUF Luke engineers exactly the sort of bait that KFV would fall for. Against Shimrra, an exhausted Luke allows himself to be impaled by the Scepter of Power so that he can free his hand and rip a lightsaber from the arrogant Shimrra's grasp to decapacitate him. Shimrra was basking in his perceived superiority as Luke was outplaying him! This is not to say Luke let himself be ensnared by the amphistaff, but rather he was still very much in the game and fairly checkmated Shimrra. Luke seizes on all opportunities and even creates his own.

To Stover, Obi-Wan is an empty vessel of the Force shaped by Obi-Wan’s skill. Luke is, as explained, an empty vessel of the Force shaped by Luke’s skill. So let’s talk about Luke’s skill...

[hideedit]

Continued...

(A) Fighting Talent

Luke has, demonstrably in the films and codified in the film novels and Fightsaber (an article written after consulting with Lucas), a prodigious talent to master lightsaber combat in real-time. 

When Luke begins fighting Vader in Episode V, he is forced to the floor twice-over within a few moments. The novel contextualizes that Vader “effortlessly” blocked his first blow and is able to swiftly disarm Luke the moment he decides to. In the next exchange, after Luke jumps free of the carbonite chamber, the script relays that Luke rallies himself and “Vader retreats before Luke's skillful sword. Vader blocks the sword, but loses his balance and falls into the outer rim of pipes.” Come Episode VI, per Fightsaber, Luke's "unparalleled aptitude makes him a match for Darth Vader." "Such an achievement with little forming training is a testament to Skywalker's innate abilities and instinctive skill." "An observing Jedi Master would be astonished at such instantaneous learning in battle."

Anakin, curiously, is never really attributed this level of aptitude. 

(B) Reflexes

Matthew Stover, 2022 Star Wars Theory interview wrote:"It is canonical that Anakin has trans-human reflexes. He is the only human to ever finish the pod race and at eight. And he is popularly considered the greatest fighter pilot in the galaxy in A New Hope. So, Anakin has the definite edge [on Mace in a fight]."

To Stover, one of the main reasons Anakin is such a great duelist is his “trans-human reflexes,” demonstrated through winning the podrace despite being a human and being considered the greatest pilot in the galaxy by Obi-Wan. Luke is given the same credentials, impossibly destroying the Death Star and being considered the greatest pilot in the galaxy in most sources. To Stover, Anakin’s landing of the Invisible Hand is his “masterpiece” and said to be technically “impossible.” Mace Windu believed “only” the Chosen One could do it. Cut from the same cloth, Stover writes an identically impossible feat for Luke:

The Mon Calamari Star Cruiser that Luke is on had "broken up" in "three major pieces” and “tumbled helplessly through Mindor’s asteroid-filled orbit.” Luke was on the “small piece.” Like the alien Nemodian controls of the Invisible Hand, the Mon Calamari ship "are not designed for human operation." The piece that Luke was on “did not have engines—did not even have repulsorlifts,” but just “attitude thrusters.” As Luke navigated through the asteroids to land, he also had to evade "gravity mines or projectors" so numerous the New Republic "couldn't even guess how many." After Luke lands, Cronal deduces that “only” a Skywalker could have landed the ship.

Stover gives Luke exactly the same feat as Anakin’s except Luke’s is even more ridiculous, stripping him of even more controls, stacking even more odds against him. As the Invisible Hand is the pinnacle display of Anakin’s piloting -- and by extension reflexes—then Luke has proven himself to be as good if not a better pilot—and by extension possessing as good if not better reflexes. 

(C) Experience

Luke has been training as a Jedi for 16 years longer than Anakin, across which he fought many more and more powerful enemies. Luke by TUF is, by every conceivable angle, the most practically experienced combatant in history (SWTOR aside!). This affords Luke ample time and opportunity to fully realize his natural aptitude and layer deep technique over his natural reflexes. 

The Mustafar duel has been characterized in so many ways: offense versus defense, raw fury versus control, Master versus Apprentice, etc. Curiously, Lucas has only shared his angle on it once: "Obi-Wan has more experience, but Anakin is more powerful." That is to say, the difference between Anakin and Obi-Wan’s “experience” is a comparable deficit in size and importance as their difference in power. 

But Luke has Anakin’s power and Obi-Wan’s experience. More power and more experience, actually. 

Big point: And as a final comment on the Obi-Wan comparisons, it can be deceptive to stack all the cited reasons of how Obi-Wan defeated Anakin—vessel of the Force, focus and kindness, doesn’t make mistakes, memorized moves, complimentary styles, uniquely unstable Anakin—and then view the difference between them as immeasurable. “Wow, Obi-Wan needed all that to defeat Anakin!” But the fact is only one or two of these reasons are mentioned by any given official or in any given interview, without suggestion that the other factors played a key reason. Each reason is intended to stand almost alone as a sufficient explanation for how a seemingly lesser opponent could defeat a stronger one. They are not meant to be misleading and expect you went through a dozen other sources of disparate authors to see what’s really going on. Luke has four of the seven stated reasons on his side—reasons of how an impossibly less powerful, less talented Force user could defeat Anakin—that should be more than enough in the eyes of any given authority. 

(D) Proof of Concept



(If you don't like DE, skip this section.)

Anakin’s best feat is defeating Dooku, who was perhaps the greatest pure swordsman in history. The feat proved to the Emperor that Anakin was “the perfect Sith apprentice.” 

Luke’s best feat is defeating the reborn Emperor. And the reborn Emperor is written within the context of both the source and the greater chronology as a top-tier duelist.



The reborn Emperor is the "Supreme Master of the Dark Side of the Force," "the greatest known wielder of the Dark Side of the Force," "the Dark Side's most powerful expression," and has “transcended to the darkest levels of Sith power.” The Emperor “has spent decades studying the most arcane and esoteric Jedi disciplines” and “has mastered nearly all the known powers, previously unknown powers, and devises new ones at his pleasure.” Lightsaber combat is the foremost means the battle between light and dark expresses itself, the chosen method of battle for the Jedi Knights and Dark Lords of the Sith alike, and when mantled without restraint or taken to its extreme entirely the domain of the dark side. As the Emperor has fully mastered the Jedi disciplines and the dark side alike, it only follows that he assuredly has fully mastered lightsaber combat as well.

In the d6 roleplaying game, which is regarded by every Star Wars official and author as the definitive reference material of the 90s that everyone collaborated on making and used, the Emperor is a +14 in both “Jedi lore” and “Lightsaber histories.” Even Ben Kenobi and Thon only have a +9 and +10 in “Jedi lore.” The Emperor’s very “Dark side lore” score is +15, barely above his Jedi score, suggesting +14 represents almost the limit. The only score above +14 across any attribute, the Emperor’s own aside, is Odan Urr’s +17 “Jedi lore” score—likely representing a true practical limit. And the Emperor is the only character even given a “Lightsaber histories” designation altogether. Practically, the Emperor is the greatest lightsaber duelist across all d6 sourcebooks in holistic ability (+13) and melee combat (+9.3), above even pre-retcon Darth Vader and Arca Jeth. So, even in the 90s, the Emperor is established as more knowledgeable in the Jedi arts than many of the Great Masters of Old, obsessed above all in lightsaber history, and the greatest known wielder of the lightsaber. 

Leia Organa Solo, Dark Empire audio drama wrote:"The Force… so strong... They're both moving so fast I can hardly see them... I feel waves of power... the dark side and the light... But... I feel... the light is winning!"

Within DE itself, the reborn Emperor brags that even Jedi Masters failed to vanquish him in battle as he picks up one of their lightsabers. He fights at a speed almost imperceptible to Leia, despite the medium otherwise never showing fighting speeds beyond the films. Dark Empire is, by all indicators, conceived to be contentious with the original trilogy and not a distorted medium. The reborn Emperor and Luke fighting too fast to be tracked is a deliberate advancement beyond the lightsaber skills of Ben Kenobi or Darth Vader shown in the films. This again suggests the reborn Emperor is not just a top-tier duelist but redefines what the top-tier even looks like.



As the prequels add depth to lightsaber combat in ways that push characters like Vader and Arca to the wayside, all the new complexities befit the reborn Emperor. In Episode III, the Emperor is revealed as tier 9 lightsaber duelist, on par with the greatest in a far more expansive history. But the Emperor seldom had picked up a lightsaber in the 13 years since Episode I, perhaps for far longer. He is vaguely suggested to have sparred with Dooku in a few sources, and came out of the woodworks to put down the Maul Brothers, but across zero of the thousands of sources commenting on the Emperor suggest any true investment. Clearly this did not cause him to decline, clearly he did not become rusty. If one believes the Emperor is a far worse duelist by Episode VI (not my opinion), this must have come about through a shattered body rather than a forgetting of technique. Besides, per Lucas, Palpatine hoards what he has obtained, hoards his power (link). He would not lose something as crucial as lightsaber knowledge. The whole idea that someone with as vast a consciousness, deep an intellect, and selfish a will as Palpatine could become rusty just seems silly.

Additionally, the Dark Empire Sourcebook describes the reborn Emperor as “at his physical peak.” The Star Wars Encyclopedia describes the clone as a “younger and stronger clone of himself.” I emphasize these two quotes particularly because they are not action figure blurbs but of high canon consideration. 

A final common criticism of the reborn Emperor is that he is... retarded. But intent-wise and in-universe, he’s not. Again, let’s concern ourselves with the primary sources and high value secondary sources. The reborn Emperor ultimately checkmates Luke into falling to the dark side, deceiving Luke into trying to play a double-agent. The comic describes the reborn Emperor as a “master strategist” and a “malevolent genius.” The Dark Empire Sourcebook reveals the reborn Emperor was the true architect of Thrawn’s defeat and that Thrawn was ultimately just a pawn to distract the New Republic. The reborn Emperor’s general “command” (leadership) attribute is on par with Leia and above Mon Mothma (+11), his military strategy “command” attribute is on par with Thrawn and Ackbar (+13), and his “persuasion” attribute is plainly the best in the game (+15). Quite literally all of the reborn Emperor’s statistics either stayed the same or improved from Episode VI Emperor, who is stated a bajillion times as the smartest, shrewdest being ever. 

So, intent-wise, the reborn Emperor is an apex a duelist as it gets. And in-universe, the reborn Emperor simply is the Emperor’s full dark glory, in a youthful vessel, wielding the knowledge and intellect he had in the films unblemished, 



And Luke just straight-up, no excuses, decisively defeats him in a duel. Leia tracks the fight through the Force, leaving it in no uncertain terms that Luke’s victory was a true check-mate rather than a burst of good fortune: "The Force… so strong... They're both moving so fast I can hardly see them... I feel waves of power... the dark side and the light... But... I feel... the light is winning!"

Anakin is a level 9 lightsaber duelist. The Emperor is a level 9 lightsaber duelist. By all rights, the reborn Emperor is as well. And so is 10 ABY Luke, 10 years into his Jedi training*. This DE side-tangent is not an affirmative case for why Luke is a level 9. Rather, it is confirming he is given the extreme expectation already set by the convergence of Luke’s Force potential, fighting talent, reflexes, and experience.

(*Though there may be concern how Luke attained a level 9 some 3 years faster than Anakin did, remember the Jedi held back Anakin’s tutelage whereas Yoda gave a most juicy crash-course, Luke has been pushed to the brink in every way far more than Anakin has, and Luke has not only gone to the dark side but also came back.)



I expect we’ll write more about this in subsequent posts, but to briefly address it now, I don’t think Luke’s subsequent lightsaber showings against Sedriss and Kam Solusar in DE 2 and EE (Empire’s End), nor any questionable displays post-DE like struggling against Callista Ming or droidekas, changes this. 

Dark Empire #4 endnotes wrote:

And yet the Jedi have a saying: In a time of greatest adversity, the greatest Jedi will be born.

DE 1 Luke is codified as "a Jedi Master," "a Jedi of the highest order," "the very essence of the Jedi," “on the threshold of awakening to the legendary powers of the great Masters of old," having "grown wise in the ways of the Force," "achieved control," and is "no longer at war with his own anger" by the start of the series. After falling to the dark side and being redeemed, "the floodgates of the Force open in" Luke, "he begins to understand" and is "compelled to find and take hold of those resources that were known by Master Yoda and the greatest Jedi of old," is able "transmute and turn" all his dark side knowledge into light side variants, and is able to harness "the greatest power in the Galaxy," "the greatest strength of the Jedi, the power of luminous beings," "the unquenchable light of the Jedi, the ultimate reality on which their way is founded," "the principle from which the Jedi derived their very existence," overall coming "united to the Force in all its intensity," with "the power of all the Jedi spirits who went before is focused in Luke." DE recounts a prophecy that describes Luke as “the greatest Jedi” in history, and also the "heir to a 25,000-year-old tradition.”

After DE 1, author Tom Veitch had significant influence from two authors who think very little of Luke’s abilities: Timothy Zahn and Kevin Anderson. Zahn repeatedly writes that Luke is not at the level of a Jedi Master nor even Darth Vader. Kevin Anderon writes that Luke could "never imagine" techniques wielded by the PT Jedi Padawan Callista Ming and only has scraps of Jedi and dark side knowledge and explains that Luke is a "rank amateur" in PT terms. We know that Veitch and Zahn even had email debates over the power-levels outlined in DE 1. These authors also seemed to have significant influence on subsequent reborn Emperor portrayals, with Veitch later recontextualizing away the reborn Emperor’s ability to create Force storms and exist as a disembodied spirit as his purest form, as well as his being vastly more powerful than Luke or needing of new bodies because his essence is just too powerful. 

But it doesn’t matter. The quotes testifying to DE 1 Luke being a true Jedi Master in every way, published before any attempted retcons, are C-Canon lore statements, not S-Canon power-level commentary. Meanwhile, the comments or events suggesting later Lukes are at this level are...

Dark Empire Sourcebook wrote:

Those of you who have prior Star Wars sourcebooks may notice that some characters have lower Force Point and Character Point totals than in prior publications. This is accurate - many of these characters have had to spend many, many points during their adventures in the Timothy Zahn novels and the Dark Empire comic series.

Leia Organa Solo, Dark Empire audio drama wrote:"The Force… so strong... They're both moving so fast I can hardly see them... I feel waves of power... the dark side and the light... But... I feel... the light is winning!"

The Unifying Force wrote:Luke listened closely. Now I shall show you the true nature of the Force, the Emperor had told him at Endor. On Mon Calamari, Vergere had tried to lead him down the same path, by implying that Yoda and Obi-Wan were to blame for not telling him the truth about the dark side. As a result of their neglect, when Luke had cut off his father's hand in anger, he assumed he had had a close brush with the dark side. When he stood at the side of the cloned Emperor, he had truly felt the dark side. Ever since, he had come to equate anger with darkness itself, and he had passed that along to the Jedi he had tutored. But in fact, according to Vergere, Luke had been misguided by his own ego. She had maintained that, while darkness could remain in someone by invitation, it could just as easily be jettisoned by self-awareness. Once Luke accepted this, he would no longer have to fear being seduced by the dark side.

"You're suggesting that I've held myself back by not wanting to incorporate this raw power into my awareness of the Force," Luke said.

(A) Already contextualized by (i) the Dark Empire Sourcebook asserting that Luke’s Force essence was completely drained across DE 1. Abstracted through statistics, Luke lost 27 of at least 33 Force points across DE, meaning he has less than 20% of his full Force reserves. By the end of Jedi Academy a year later, Luke had only recovered 1 more Force point. This is noted in text, acknowledging that characters had lost “many, many points. (ii) the fact DE 1 Luke is able to duel the reborn Emperor almost invisibly fast even to Leia’s Jedi perception, but even DE 2 and EE Luke fight vastly slower at normal human speeds, necessitating a true drop in Luke’s power-in universe*. (iii) most subsequent works, such as the Jedi Academy Trilogy or New Rebellion, writing Luke as extremely mentally traumatized or physically injured, and so unable to wield his full powers anyway. (iv) TUF itself saying that Luke had been afraid to “incorporate raw power into his awareness” “since” DE 1 and that this is why Luke seems to fatigue quickly in battle as he is expending a lot of effort to curb his powers. 

* (Given this, its very plausible DE 1 Luke would straight one-shot Sedriss before he could react, like the Emperor against Agen Kolar)

(B) Simply of lower canon consideration. Author statements have value, but Lucasfilm is consistent that they cannot override established C-Canon lore. And most of the other quotes are written from the limited third-person perspectives of other characters or a potentially self-doubting Luke. Matthew Stover says the great irony of Obi-Wan is that he “loses sight of how amazing he really is”—why would Luke be any different? I welcome a source or audience count comparison between these two visions of Luke—I am certain DE Luke wins out.  

But above all, Lucasfilm has repeatedly endorsed source splicing rather than retconning. Most notably, Leland Chee heavily endorsed harmonizing the wildly disparate events of the Labyrinth of Evil and the Clone Wars micro-series by figuring events happen between sentence or frame cuts. Similarly, we can honor DE 1 and later sources by accepting both as true. DE 1 Luke really is “a Jedi of the highest order” and JA Luke really is a “rank amateur.” The difference is owed to the numerous reasons provided in (A) as well as Luke perhaps genuinely repressing a lot of his dark memories, just as Revan, Malak, and the Hero of Tython did after breaking free of the Sith Emperor’s thrall. (Again, precedent-support “fan theories” in the service of reconciling seemingly contradictory material is supported by Chee, so I don’t find the suggestion awkward.) All these handicaps would be reconciled by TUF, where Luke explicitly moves past the fear plaguing him since DE and wields his true full power.

Now, with Obi-Wan and DE discussed, let’s turn back to TUF—

• Luke was in “complete control of his momentum” and his body maneuvers “seemed to defy gravity”

Episode III: Revenge of the Sith adult novelization wrote:He dropped low and spun into another reverse ankle-sweep-the weakness of Djem So was its lack of mobility-that slapped Skywalker's boot sharply enough to throw the young Jedi off balance, giving Dooku the opportunity to leap away-Only to find himself again facing the wheel of blue lightning that was Kenobi's blade.

Animator Mattias Kirsten, Electronic Arts interview wrote:“It was interesting to see that Anakin is so good with a lightsaber that he seems to forego certain basic fighting practices. For example, he actually doesn’t use a lot of footwork, he’s more planted at a certain spot, while moving his lightsaber in a very skilled manner.”

Luke has peak control over his body and makes full use of that, doing things Jacen regards as nearly impossible. Unlike Anakin, who chooses to abandon his footwork and fight in ways that plainly debilitates his momentum because he thinks he’s the best anyway, Luke fights most fluidly, often vaulting through the air, rolling, spinning, cartwheeling, and somersaulting. The point is not that Luke is bound to acrobatic combat like Yoda, but rather Luke can fight any way he wants, without misstep, in complete control... and chooses to do so. Whereas Anakin’s self-imposed restrictions or Djem So base have underlying exploitable weaknesses, Luke’s approach seemingly does not. 

• Luke’s “single blade might as well have been ten, or twenty”

James Luceno and Matthew Stover are known to be close collaborators in both The Dark Lord Trilogy and New Jedi Order, reading and building on each other’s works. 

Luke’s blade being seen as twenty seems non-coincidentally referenced by Stover in the Episode III novel:

Episode III: Revenge of the Sith adult novelization wrote:The electrodrivers that powered Grievous's limbs could move them faster than the human eye can see; when he swung his arm, it and his fist and the lightsaber within it would literally vanish: wiped from existence by sheer mind-numbing speed, an imitation quantum event. No human being could move remotely as fast as Grievous, not even Obi-Wan-but he didn't have to.

Episode III: Revenge of the Sith adult novelization wrote:Grievous, snarling fury, ramped up the intensity and velocity of his attacks-sixteen per second, eighteen-until finally, at twenty strikes per second, he overloaded Obi-Wan's defense.

Stover’s conception of Grievous is one who can move his limbs infinitely faster than any Jedi, culminating at twenty strikes per second when using all four. At this speed, his offense altogether oveloads Obi-Wan’s defense, which is beyond Anakin—

—but not Luke, who strikes with twenty blades at once. 

IV. Conclusion

The best way to think about TUF Luke is that he is Obi-Wan and Anakin put together. Except even more—purged of all their weaknesses and with all their strengths enhanced.

Luke has Obi-Wan’s surrender, being able to empty his vessel of himself and entrust it to the Force. This is a key reason to how Obi-Wan is able to rise above Mace and defeat Anakin. But Luke shapes the Force with even greater skill, guiding the Force with even greater clarity of mind.

Luke has Obi-Wan’s focus and kindness. This is another key reason to how Obi-Wan goes beyond himself. But Luke is just as focused and an even better person, believing in his father when even Obi-Wan lost hope. 

Luke has Obi-Wan’s experience. This is Lucas’ reason for Obi-Wan’s success. But Luke is ultimately even more experienced in every way.

Luke has Obi-Wan’s control. This is the fourth key reason to how Obi-Wan does the impossible. Luke has gone through the levels, freed himself of all emotions and ego, and fights as a calm maelstrom free of mistakes. 

Luke has Anakin’s power—the power of the Emperor. But Luke is even more powerful by this point, as prophesied by Lucas repeatedly throughout the Episode V and VI production. 

Luke has Anakin’s lightsaber abilities—the abilities of a level 9, rivaled only by Yoda and the Emperor. But Luke is perhaps even a level 10, already outdueling the Emperor 19 years before TUF, before innumerable battles. 

Luke has Anakin’s intensity—the intensity of a Skywalker! Luke fights not passively like Obi-Wan but as a destroyer of armies, twenty lightsabers at once, constantly in motion, all actions in service of bringing him another step forward. 

---

We’ve established Luke is more powerful than Anakin. We’ve established Luke both ought to be and demonstrably is at Anakin’s fighting level long before TUF. We’ve established that Luke mantles all the cited key characteristics that allowed Obi-Wan to defeat Anakin in the eyes of Stover and Lucas. We’ve established that whereas KFV has genuine vulnerabilities in his fighting style born from not being a mental level 9, Luke does not and is genuinely a flawless fighter.

A fight between Luke and Anakin, conservatively, would be Luke handling anything Anakin can dish out and then cutting him down when Anakin blunders. More realistically, Luke should be able to just overwhelm Anakin altogether, being better in almost every way.

The unfortunate reality for Anakin is that his two biggest supporters—Lucas and Stover—would be even more into everything TUF Luke is and represents.

Luke wins. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sjJzR6ghQ2c

---

They, like me, believe him to be the chosen one.

 You were right. The force within him is stronger than any known Jedi. 

-Overlords

“Long have you watched him,” Dooku had said, repeating words

Sidious himself had spoken.

“Longer than you know, Lord Tyranus. Longer than you know. And

the time has come to test him again.”

“His skills, my lord?”

“The depth of his anger. His willingness to go beyond the Force, as the

Jedi know it, and to call on the power of the dark side.

-Darth Lord: Rise of Darth Vader

Quite simple, in the end, he thought. Isolate Skywalker, slaughter

Kenobi. Beyond that, it would be merely a matter of spinning

Skywalker up into enough of a frenzy to break through his Jedi

restraint and reveal the infinite vista of Sith power. -Revenge of the Sith

Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread. Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical -Revenge of the Sith Novel

It was set up as a test for Anakin because if he could kill Dooku then he would make the perfect apprentice for Palpatine who’d been sort of training him, setting him up, and befriending him over the years. -George Lucas

-

The child could have been the creation of sinister Sith manipulations, as the Dark Lords Darth Plagueis and Darth Sidious conspired to bring about the perfect apprentice by coaxing life from lifelessness. -Darth Vader Databank

-

For years, he envisioned Anakin as his ultimate apprentice, but he was patient enough to employ Intermediary apprentices while Anakin was being groomed to become Darth Vader -Star Wars Chronicles The Prequels

I put Dooku in after Darth Maul was killed to establish that the Emperors assistant or the other Sith could take Jedi and convert them, in this particular case the idea is that Palpatine is testing Anakin to see if he is strong enough to become his apprentice and he doesn't tell Dooku what he is actually up to Dooku thinks he is just going to fight him, but the whole thing is a set up by the emperor to test Anakin's strength and when Anakin is strong enough, which he proves to be by killing Dooku then the emperor is ready to convert him over to the dark side and become his new apprentice

-George Lucas DVD Commentary Revenge of the Sith

Anakin was renamed Darth Vader. The Sith conspiracy, which had been festering in the shadows of the Republic for a thousand years, sprang into action. Palpatine elevated himself to the position of Emperor, and dispatched Vader as his ultimate enforcer. With his unparalleled Force abilities, Vader swept through the Jedi Temple. 

-Darth Vader Databank

-

His identity was exposed during his quest for the ultimate Sith apprentice. Having closely monitored Anakin Skywalker for years, Sidious felt he was the ideal Sith to make true his vision of new society built upon Sith principals. As Palpatine, he befriended Skywalker, becoming a close friend and a fatherly authority to a youthful warrior often confused by the seemingly boundless power and abilities he had at his disposal. 

-Darth Sidious Databank

-

During the mission to rescue the Chancellor, Anakin confronted Darth Tyranus. The two dueled, and at Palpatine's goading, Anakin killed the Sith Lord. Anakin had the power and was ready to use it, Sidious grinned. Anakin would be his.

- Darth Sidious Databank

Everything in the episodes is symbolic of everything that takes place in all six Star Wars Films

-Dave Filoni, Secrets of Mortis 

The chosen one is a myth!

Is it? I should very much like to know. Why don't we find out together? Pass one test, and I shall know the truth. Then you and your friends may leave.

-Overlords

Rather than make this impossible decision, Anakin taps into the energies that flow so freely on Mortis

-Clone Wars: Secrets Revealed in 3D - Pablo Hidalgo

ANAKIN’S LIMITATIONS

---

Anakin has a fog of lies around him that shrouds his furnace heart,

"All that strength, that anger, it is restrained by his belief, his doubt.
Everyone is made up of events in their past and it forms walls around one's spirit or breaks such walls down.
The mind gives strength or makes some powerless. He walks but he is dead. It is because he is not ready to give up his ties yet. It is much like Jedi who will not give up their code.
It is to surrender yourself. To be a slave to a teaching or belief that makes it so that belief will always rule you."
-Knights of the Old Republic II

This fog of lies is his Jedi restraint and guilt that exists because the Jedi inadvertently fostered a sense of guilt within him. He was preconditioned to view his natural emotions and attachments as transgressions against the Jedi Code, despite these feelings being an intrinsic part of his identity that he could not simply abandon. This inflexibility on the part of the Jedi Order not only misunderstood Anakin's unique needs but fostered a deep internal conflict within him, Which is part of how the Jedi fostered their own defeat

Quite simple, in the end, he thought. Isolate Skywalker, slaughter
Kenobi. Beyond that, it would be merely a matter of spinning
Skywalker up into enough of a frenzy to break through his Jedi
restraint and reveal the infinite vista of Sith power. -Revenge of the Sith


They see your future. They know your power will be too strong to control. Anakin, you must break through the fog of lies the Jedi have created around you. Let me help you to know the subtleties of the Force. -Revenge of the Sith

“Light and dark are no more than nomenclature: words that
describe how little we understand.” She seemed to draw strength
from his weakness, slowly managing to sit up. “What you call the
dark side is the raw, unrestrained Force itself: you call the dark side
what you find when you give yourself over wholly to the Force. To
be a Jedi is to control your passion … but Jedi control limits your
power. Greatness—true greatness of any kind—requires the
surrender of control. Passion that is guided, not walled away. Leave
your limits behind.”
-Traitor

For Instance Anakin feels guilty about what happened at the Tusken Camp, as talked about on Mortis and connecting to ROTS, it’s another cloud in his mind, his training has served him well but he is more than a Jedi, he needs to face his guilt, he shouldn't be held back.

Everything you have done, everything you have learned has led you here. Whatever you are, my mother is... Is dead. And you blame yourself. Your Jedi training has served you well, Ani, but you are more than a Jedi. Tell me, where is your pain, so I might take it away. I was too late to save you. I failed as a Jedi and I failed you. How so? I tasted only vengeance when I slaughtered so many to avenge your death. It is time you realized that your guilt does not define you, my son. You define your guilt.  The only love I feel in my heart is haunted by what would happen should I let go.  Then it is not love. It is a prison. But I... I have a wife. You've met her. She's everything to me.  She is not your destiny. -Overlords Script


He didn't answer. He couldn't answer. He was looking at an image inside his head. Not an image. A reality. A memory of something that hadn't happened yet. He saw Count Dooku on his knees. He saw lightsabers crossed at the Count's throat. Clouds lifted from his heart: clouds of Jabiim, of Aargonar, of Kamino, of even the Tusken camp. For the first time in too many years he felt young: as young as he really was. Young, and free, and full of light  -Revenge of the Sith


It is time to face your guilt and know the truth. ( Loud screech ) Roar!  Whatever he wants, don't do it, master! ( Grunting and gasping ) ( Screeches )  Let them go. I will not play your games.  Oh, but I think you will. I have ordered my children to kill your friends. The question is, which one will you choose to save: Your master or your apprentice? You must now release the guilt and free yourself by choosing. No!
 -Overlords Script


Balance is found in the one who faces his guilt
-Overlords

The Guilt is concealing the Truth that he is the Chosen One, it’s concealing his Furnace Heart, Note that both the Father and the Son tell him to do this, they both want him to face his guilt and free himself, but of course they have different methods in mind for how Anakin should do this, there is the dark selfish way, and there is light selfless way, taking the guilt into yourself, embracing it and letting it feed you. Or letting go of it, letting go of attachments and self. Again the truth is explicitly concealed within Anakin not around him on Mortis or anything like that.

BREAKING CHAINS

---

Let’s make some comparisons, within some Stover/Luceno material… Ganner Rhysode and Anakin Skywalker's situations reflect an internal struggle with their identity and the expectations placed on them. Ganner is tired of failing to meet the varied roles expected of him, from hero to Jedi, and eventually embraces his true self in a moment of liberation, realizing that to fulfill his destiny, he must accept and utilize his inherent traits. Similarly, Anakin confronts his complex identity, questioning if his multifaceted life, from slave to Jedi,  can reconcile with the actions he's capable of, he breaks through his Jedi restraint when he is finally given permission to not fear his inherent traits but use them, much like Ganner. Both of these guys experience a critical moment of self-realization

"Like I said, I'm just the sidekick here," he said carelessly. "My job is to make sure the real hero lives long enough to do his. That whole `needing to be a hero' thing has always been my greatest weakness."


Jacen stared at him, into him, through him, as though he knew him to his very core, and he nodded. "But you should know that it can also be your greatest strength. Give yourself permission to use that strength, Ganner. You'll need it. "
-New Jedi Order: Traitor - Matthew Stover


He was sick of being Ganner Rhysode. Sick of trying to be a hero. Sick of trying not to be a hero. Sick of being a crappy Jedi, a mediocre pilot, and a bloody lousy leader of men. Sick of being a joke. Just sick.
-
Ganner tried for so long tried so hard to be what everyone told him he was supposed to be tried to control his flair for the dramatic for the elegant the graceful the artistic tried to be a good son a good friend a humble man a good Jedi … But in the archway he finds the end of trying. There is reason no longer to resist the truth of himself. Playacting the hero’s part is not only permissible— It is necessary. To hold the archway it is not enough to merely wound and kill is not enough to be calm and surgical and grieving. To hold the archway he must not only slaughter but slaughter effortlessly carelessly laughingly. Joyfully. To hold the archway he must dance and whirl and leap and spin calling out for more opponents. More victims. He must make them hesitate to face him. He must make them fear." -Traitor


"In that instant everything finally made sense. He understood what Jacen had been talking about. There was nothing to fear. He understood the power of being who he was. He didn’t even really have to know who he was. He could decide. He could choose and act."-Traitor - Matthew Stover


Murderer and murdered each stared blindly. But only the murderer blinked. I did that. The severed head’s stare was fixed on something beyond living sight. The desperate plea frozen in place on its lips echoed silence. The headless torso collapsed with a slowly fading sigh from the cauterized gape of its trachea, folding forward at the waist as though making obeisance before the power that had ripped away its life. The murderer blinked again. Who am I? Was he the slave boy on a desert planet, valued for his astonishing gift with machines? Was he the legendary Podracer, the only human to survive that deadly sport? Was he the unruly, high-spirited, trouble-prone student of a great Jedi Master? The star pilot? The hero? The lover? The Jedi? Could he be all these things—could he be any of them—and still have done what he has done? He was already discovering the answer at the same time that he finally realized that he needed to ask the question. -Revenge of the Sith -Matthew Stover


Burning a wedge between him and his dearest, friend and mentor. Obi-Wan Kenobi, is he not the Chosen One, the greatest Jedi to have ever lived? Why then should he be bound by rules designed to limit his power. -Slideshow Star Wars: Anakin Skywalker


They see your future. They know your power will be too strong to control. Anakin, you must break through the fog of lies the Jedi have created around you. Let me help you to know the subtleties of the Force. -Revenge of the Sith


In time you will learn to trust your feelings, then you will be invincible
-Attack of the Clones

This self realization reveals the truth of themselves and provides pristine mental clarity, releasing the clouding from their minds

When you empty your mind and fix these internal struggles you become transparent, and the force can flow through you with no interference from your conscious thought, as soon as Anakin thinks about what he's doing and not his goal then he can no longer walk, he leaves the flowstate, we can see this when Luke enters the same state too

Powered by the dark side, Dooku’s perception took the measure of those below him with exhilarating precision. Kenobi was luminous, a transparent being, a window onto a sunlit meadow of the Force. -Revenge of the Sith


He doesn’t even need to reach into the Force. He has already let the Force reach into him. The Force flows over him and around him as though he has stepped into a crystal-pure waterfall lost in the green coils of a forgotten rain forest; when he opens himself to that sparkling stream it flows into him and through him and out again without the slightest interference from his conscious will. -Revenge of the Sith


He leaned back in his chair and covered his face with both hands, inhaling a thin stream of air between his palms; into himself with the air he brought pain and guilt and remorse, and as he exhaled, they trailed away and vanished in the air. He breathed out his whole life. Everything he had done, everything he had been, friends and enemies, dreams and hopes and fears. Empty, he found clarity. Scrubbed clean, the Force shone through him. He sat up and nodded to Yoda. -Revenge of the Sith


A simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the no  more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn; like the proverbial Corellian multipede, now that he had started thinking about what he was doing, he could no longer walk. -Revenge of the Sith


Jacen recalled watching his uncle on Belkadan, where the war
had begun, wielding two lightsabers when he had come to Jacen’s
rescue. But the rescue on Belkadan paled in comparison to the
control Luke demonstrated now.
His single blade might as well have been ten, or twenty.
He took the steps at a lightning pace, burning his way through
dilating membranes but in complete control of his momentum. Seen
through the Force he was a maelstrom of luminous energy, a Force
storm against which there was no shelter. And yet all his energy
poured from a calm center; an eye. He made no missteps. None of
his actions were interrupted by thought.
In fact, Luke didn’t seem to be there at all—physically or as an
individual personality.
-The Unifying Force


Instantly the box of bodyguards around Obi-Wan filled with crackling electrostaffs whipping faster than the human eye could see-which was less troublesome than it might have been, for that box was already empty of Jedi.


The Force had let him collapse as though he'd suddenly fainted, then it brought his lightsaber from his belt to his hand and ignited it while he turned his fall into a roll; that roll carried his lightsaber through a crisp arc that severed the leg of one of the bodyguards, and as the Force brought Obi-Wan back to his feet, the Force also nudged the crippled bodyguard to topple sideways into the path of the blade and sent it clanging to the floor in two smoking, sparking pieces. One down.


The remaining three pressed the attack, but more cautiously; their weapons were longer than his, and they struck from beyond the reach of his blade. He gave way before them, his defensive velocities barely keeping their crackling discharge blades at bay.


Three MagnaGuards, each with a double-ended weapon that generated an energy field impervious to lightsabers, each with reflexes that operated near lightspeed, each with hypersophisticated heuristic combat algorithms that enabled it to learn from experience and adapt its tactics instantly to any situation, were certainly beyond Obi-Wan's ability to defeat, but it was not Obi-Wan who would defeat them; Obi-Wan wasn't even fighting. He was only a vessel, emptied of self. The Force, shaped by his skill and guided by his clarity of mind, fought through him.


In the Force, he felt their destruction: it was somewhere above and behind him, and only seconds away.


He went to meet it with a backflipping leap that the Force used to lift him neatly to an empty droid socket in the ceiling hive. The MagnaGuards sprang after him but he was gone by the time they arrived, leaping higher into the maze of girders and cables and room-sized cargo containers that was the control center's superstructure.


Here, said the Force within him, and Obi-Wan stopped, balancing on a girder, frowning back at the oncoming killer droids that leapt from beam to beam below him like malevolent dura-steel primates. Though he could feel its close approach, he had no idea from where their destruction might come . . . until the Force showed him a support beam within reach of his blade and whispered, Now.


His blade flicked out and the durasteel beam parted, fresh-cut edges glowing white hot, and a great hulk of ship-sized cargo container that the beam had been supporting tore free of its other supports with shrieks of anguished metal and crashed down upon all three MagnaGuards with the finality of a meteor strike.


Two, three, and four.


Oh, thought Obi-Wan with detached approval. That worked out rather well.


Only ten thousand to go. Give or take. An instant later the Force had him hurtling through a storm of blasterfire as every combat droid in the control center opened up on him at once.


Letting go of intention, letting go of desire, letting go of life, Obi-Wan fixed his entire attention on a thread of the Force that pulled him toward Grievous: not where Grievous was, but where Grievous would be when Obi-Wan got there . . .
-Revenge of the Sith Novel

Where as it is Jacen tells Ganner that he has to give himself permission, For Anakin, this realization comes when he gets permission from Palpatine, he no longer feels the guilt instilled upon him by the Jedi, he has permission now

I don't have to be a hero, he thought in silent wonder. All I have to do is pretend.


"Like I said, I'm just the sidekick here," he said carelessly. "My job is to make sure the real hero lives long enough to do his. That whole `needing to be a hero' thing has always been my greatest weakness."


Jacen stared at him, into him, through him, as though he knew him to his very core, and he nodded. "But you should know that it can also be your greatest strength. Give yourself permission to use that strength, Ganner. You'll need it. "

• New Jedi Order: Traitor
  
  

"In that instant everything finally made sense. He understood what Jacen had been talking about. There was nothing to fear. He understood the power of being who he was. He didn’t even really have to know who he was. He could decide. He could choose and act."-Traitor


“Don’t fear what you’re feeling, Anakin, use it!” he barked in Palpatine’s voice. “Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill him!
-
But when Palpatine barks, “Do it! Now!” Anakin realizes that this
isn’t actually an order. That it is, in fact, nothing more than what
he’s been waiting for his whole life.
Permission. -Revenge of the Sith


“Yes, Anakin. Yes. Exactly that. Only that. Do the one thing that the Jedi fear most: make up your own mind. Follow your own conscience. Do what you think is right. I know that you have been longing for a life greater than that of an ordinary Jedi. Commit to that life. I know you burn for greater power than any Jedi can wield; give yourself permission to gain that power, and allow yourself license to use it. You have dreamed of leaving the Jedi Order, having a family of your own—one that is based on love, not on enforced rules of self-denial.”
-Revenge of the Sith

And thus achieves a crystal clear mind for the force to flood through without restraint.


After clearing the mind of conflict - with the release of self you become the Force itself, the Force surges through your veins to tune your heart to the rhythm of the Universe as your decisions become reality this is commonly referred to as Oneness

His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind. On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here, now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin’s mind is clear as a crystal bell. In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do. Decide. So he does. He decides to win. He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here: his blade moves simultaneously with his will and blue fire vaporizes black Corellian nanosilk and disintegrates flesh and shears bone, and away falls a Sith Lord’s lightsaber hand, trailing smoke that tastes of charred meat and burned hair. -Revenge of the Sith


Burned-milk reek of Yuuzhan Vong blood sizzling into smoke on his blade— —lines of burning ice that are the slices left in his flesh by amphistaffs— —cold flame of amphistaff venom consuming his nerves— These are mere flicks of melody in Ganner’s symphony of the Force. The Force does more than give him strength more than lift him spin him: the Force surges though his veins to tune his heart to the rhythm of the Universe. He has become the Force and the Force has become him. He is not directly aware of the sequence of his death; time vanished along with fear and doubt and pain in that eternal second when he surrendered his self-command. Standing in the archway waiting for the Yuuzhan Vong Ganner realized that this right now right here was what his whole life had been for​​. -Traitor


No one could land such a hulk, not even Skywalker. Each second that passed before its final breakup and burn was a miracle in itself, a testament to the gifts of
a pilot who was justly legendary— but when each second is a
miracle, how many of them can be strung together in a row?
-
This is, put simply, impossible. It can't be done. He's going to do it anyway. Because he is Anakin Skywalker, and he doesn't believe in impossible.
-
It is the Force that makes this possible, and more than the
Force. Anakin has no interest in serene acceptance of what the
Force will bring. Not here. Not now. Not with the lives of
Palpatine and Obi-Wan at stake. It's just the opposite: he
seizes upon the Force with a stark refusal to fail.
He will land this ship.
He will save his friends.
Between his will and the will of the Force, there is no contest
-Revenge of the Sith

So, Anakin undergoes a critical moment of self-realization where he acknowledges that he does not need to conform to the Jedi's expectations. Instead, he clears his mind and embraces his true identity, which encompasses being The Chosen One/Embodiment of the Force. This realization allows him to seize control of his inner power that is now no longer shrouded by fog, making conscious decisions that reflect his will over reality. Like Ganner, Anakin's process involves asserting his inherent connection to the Force, choosing to wield all his power rather than suppressing aspects of himself to fit into a predefined role, however unlike Ganner, Anakin is not surrendering self control he is seizing it, but it still results in the same outcome… Oneness

Ganner's journey to tapping into the “Oneness” differs from Anakin's. Lacking Anakin's innate connection as the Force's embodiment, Ganner becomes an embodiment by clearing his mind and letting go, surrendering to the Force, relinquishing self-command to align with something greater than himself. This surrender is not a sign of weakness but a strategic acceptance of his role within the larger flow of the Force, allowing him to become a conduit for its power to converge, that moment is who he was. Anakin is not doing this but gets the same result


Surrender VS Seizure-

Ganner surrenders to the Force, embracing it as a power beyond his individual self. This contrasts with Anakin's approach of seizing control of himself, clearing his mind and freeing himself the other way, yet this has the same reality warping result of Oneness because he is wielding the entire force, reflecting his unique status as the Force's embodiment, he need not surrender to a higher power when he is that higher power, he need only free himself, free what is within, Which is the entire Force, a quality unique to the Chosen One. Unlike Ganner or Luke who not only need to become the force but have to also let the Force become them, this will be important later

It is the Force that makes this possible, and more than the Force. Anakin has no interest in serene acceptance of what the Force will bring. Not here. Not now. Not with the lives of Palpatine and Obi-Wan at stake. It's just the opposite: he seizes upon the Force with a stark refusal to fail. He will land this ship. He will save his friends. Between his will and the will of the Force, there is no contest
-Revenge of the Sith

Different Path's to Power-

Anakin's oneness is one of embracing his totality and using his inherent power to shape the force around him. In contrast, Ganner's or Luke’s oneness is a testament to the power of surrender, showcasing how letting go of one's ego and desires can lead to becoming a vessel for the Force's will, through this surrender, the force tunes his heart to the rhythm of the universe, were as Anakin’s heart defines the universe. Plays it’s own rhythm, Each path, though different, results in the same thing, willing and warping reality which is synonymous with controlling the Force. It's Anakin's furnace heart that does this and all he has to do is clear his mind.


Willing reality and shaping the Force itself is the purpose of the Father, spanking around the Son and Daughter (The Force -  50% dark 50% light) with his power, the power of balance, overpowering the force to keep balance. Think of the Father as 100% of the power.

These three beings are incarnations of the force itself, The Son represents the unfettered dark side, the Daughter is the pure light side, and the Father is the mediator between his two children, his strength keeping either one from overwhelming the other. Each can take any form they choose and likely are not creatures of flesh and blood
- Nexus of Power


It is the Force that makes this possible, and more than the
Force. Anakin has no interest in serene acceptance of what the
Force will bring.
-Revenge of the Sith

This state of clear mind and pristine focus and calm is what Anakin achieves fighting Dooku all of him, dark and light (100% of the power), shines through him with perfect clarity nothing controls him he controls it, when he attacks Dooku its Watto’s fist knocking him back, the dragon being channeled, he has now defined his guilt, defined himself, like the Son said, the Father tells him to “Free himself” and this is when Anakin finally does that, clouds lift from his heart, he is free, but he ends up doing it the way the Son/Palpatine wanted him to, not the way the Father wanted him to

When Count Dooku flies at him, blade flashing, Watto’s fist cracks out from Anakin’s childhood to knock the Sith Lord tumbling back. When with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the durasteel table, Shmi Skywalker’s gentle murmur I knew you would come for me, Anakin smashes it aside. -Revenge of the Sith


Clouds lifted from his heart: clouds of Jabiim, of Aargonar, of Kamino, of even the Tusken camp. For the first time in too many years he felt young: as young as he really was. Young, and free, and full of light  -Revenge of the Sith


You must face your guilt and free yourself
-Overlords

The dragon, once a symbol of Anakin's fears and limitations, has now been harnessed as a source of his strength, yet it no longer dictates his actions. By getting permission and embracing the dark side of himself, Anakin achieves a state where its influence does not cloud his judgment; instead, he wields it with clarity and purpose. a significant distinction from the typical consequences of engaging with the dark side, as seen in others and Anakin himself during the events of AOTC Unlike the usual corruption and loss of self associated with its use, Anakin maintains control, directing the dark side's power with purpose without succumbing to its dominion, as seen with the corruption observed in the Original Jedi Exiles etc. who all fall into the trap

In the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter 
-Revenge of the Sith


At that time, the only meaning, the only purpose, that Anakin

could fathom was that of the rage building within him, an anger at

losing someone he did not wish to give up.

Some small part of him warned him not to give in to that anger,

warned him that such emotions were of the dark side.

Then he looked at Shmi lying there, so still, seeming at peace but

covered with the clear evidence of all the pain that had been

inflicted upon her poor body these last days.

The Jedi Padawan climbed to his feet and took up his lightsaber,

then boldly strode through the door.

The two Tusken guards gave a yelp and lifted their staves, rushing

for him, but the blue-glowing blade ignited, and in a flash of killing

light, Anakin took them down, left and right.

The rage was not sated.-Attack of the Clones


"Sith rely on their passion to get things done. They use their raw emotion, their hatred, their anger, their bitterness - which is the dark side of the Force. The Force is what binds the galaxy together, and it has a good side and a bad side. The Sith learned how to manipulate both sides of the Force, and then they fell into the trap of being corrupted by the dark side." ~ George Lucas, Sci-Fi Online interview, 2005

Indeed Anakin’s defeat of Dooku in this state is mirrored directly by Anakin taming the Son and Daughter on Mortis, he overpowers the Force in both instances as is symbolized by Anakin’s crossed sabers, he reaches out and the Force catches it for him, he is the Force, he commands it, and there's both a Sith and Jedi blade that he catches, light and dark, with an unaltered clear balanced mind.

The hand falls with a bar of scarlet blaze still extending

from its spastic death grip, and Anakin’s heart sings for the fall of

that red blade.

He reaches out and the Force catches it for him.

And then Anakin takes Dooku’s other hand as well.

Dooku crumples to his knees, face blank, mouth slack, and his

weapon whirs through the air to the victor’s hand, and Anakin finds

his vision of the future happening before his eyes: two blades at

Count Dooku’s throat.

But here, now, the truth belies the dream. Both lightsabers are in

his hands, and the one in his hand of flesh flares with the synthetic

bloodshine of a Sith blade.

-Revenge of the Sith


He held the Force in the clench of a white-hot fist. He was half Sith already, and he didn’t even know it. -ROTS

You can also see Anakin’s control in the film on the invisible hand when he refrains from killing Dooku initially before Palpatine says…” Dewit!”


[/left]

-Legacy 17

The dark is generous, and it is patient, and it always wins—but in the heart of its strength lies weakness: one lone candle is enough to hold it back. Love is more than a candle. Love can ignite the stars.-Revenge of the Sith

[left]
This is a connection of Love which is of the light side and it's the only way to break this hold and free those clouds that have shrouded the light left in him, this Love connection free’s his clouds thus igniting his star/furnace heart, which is exactly what is happening when he is free of the dragon and fog in ROTS, so it is the same thing Anakin is doing on the IH it links back in, an Vader is doing this too, entering into this state of mental clarity and allowing the Force to shine through him without resistance, where dark and light become something he can play with within himself without having to remain on any one side or the other, all of the force shines through him.


Its Anakin’s furnace heart shining through without restraint that warps reality, and that is ‘more than the force’ Anakin doesn't merely utilize the Force; he commands it, embodying a force of nature that bends the very fabric of reality to his will. Beating Dooku and landing the IH is proof that Anakin is not just aligned with the Force; he is its master, showing an ability to overpower and direct it in ways that defy comprehension, a capacity to reshape the impossible into a fact, and stringing along miracle after mirricle for as long as he wills it, Holding the force in the clench of a white hot fist, this is the power of Anakin’s furnace heart, the same cannot be said for anybody else, others must enter oneness to achieve this outcome, others aren't necessarily choosing what they are doing in these moments of oneness either, the force is acting through them, this is their moment, with Anakin he just frees his mind and does whatever he wants, nobody else can do this.


Our examples; Ganner, Jacen and Luke let go of themselves -  “surrenders his self control” and become something larger than themselves where as Anakin “seizes upon the force” not letting go of the dragon and his restraint but using it, either option would result in Anakin being Free of restraint and Anakin ended up going with the Son/Sidious’ way of doing that and the IH.

THE FATHERS INTENTIONS

---

The Father presents Anakin with a challenging choice between saving Obi-Wan or Ahsoka, symbolizing a test of Anakin's ability to let go, a theme revisited in "Return of the Jedi.", letting go at this point is “an impossible choice” nor does Anakin have the “permission” to use his inherent power by the time of S3, so instead of making that choice Anakin goes with the only option currently available to him to pass the test, he “defies” the father “rejecting the ultimatum” and finds a way to free his friends anyway by tapping “into the energy that flowed so freely on Mortis”


If Anakin NEEDED the Mortis nexus then obviously the Father would be trying to get him to use the Nexus one way or another (which he doesn’t) which would mean Anakin, in using the Nexus, would not be acting in DEFIANCE of the Father (which he is) it also just kinda doesn’t make sense with all of the above stuff from ROTS etc nor within it’s own narrative, since the Son wants Anakin to unlock his own full potential, Anakin is the Sons anchor to going beyond simply one side of the Force, to corrupt the whole thing, corrupt the balance embodied in Anakin and The Father

If he NEEDED the Nexus then the scene on the IH would not even be a mirror,


How would he have even proved he is the Chosen One on the invisible hand? he wouldn’t be able to demonstrate command of the entire force itself with anything less than being the embodiment of the Force(100% of the power), when he’s one with himself he’s one with the force, how would he have done this unless that inner power is the equivalent of Mortis, each trial shows he is the chosen one, and the chosen one means controlling the force itself, or Does being the Chosen One mean different things between TCW and ROTS now?

Father wants Anakin to Free Himself to tame the One’s and overpower the force, Anakin acts in defiance of this, uses the Mortis energies instead, going against the father explicitly telling him to do this using himself.

I don’t think we ever see an instance in the verse where freeing one’s self would help tap into the free energies of a nexus, that is completely external and unrelated to internal conflict, freeing oneself and unlocking your furnace heart is an internal thing. Sure the Chosen One can harness all of Mortis, but that’s not what the chosen one means, it’s just something that he can do as an extension of being that strong himself. his power isn’t something separate and external from him, what would even be the point in that? The only way this even makes sense narratively is if Anakin is the equivalent of Mortis. And why would Anakin even have the ability to do that if he wasn’t that strong ? Why would the Son even need Anakin?

At death, in order for you to preserve your identity, you must know yourself, your true self, and then let go. On that island dwells all that remains unconquered, what in your existence some call evil, otherwise known as fear. All which must be finally overcome before the journey can be taken. Free yourself you must.

A Jedi Master I am. Know all that dwells within I do. Mastered my weaknesses and conquered my fears I have.

Have you? You must face your evil on that island and defeat it. -Destiny Script

Overcoming his fear and knowing what dwells within frees Yoda, which is what the Father tells Anakin to do “Face your guilt and free yourself” they want them to do the same thing, for Anakin this involves his fear of loss and attachment, which is why he’s given this ultimatum to let go of either his Master or his Apprentice, and it's all about the Force WITHIN

FULCRUM TOOL

-Secrets Revealed in 3D

Representing the balance point of the force, the Father recognised in Anakin someone powerful enough to replace him and keep either of his children from dominating the other

- Relaunched Fact File 75

It was clear to Qui-Gon Jinn that Anakin himself represented the balance between the light and dark sides of the Force.

-Relaunched Fact File 23


The Father wanted Anakin Skywalker to take his place. He recognised that Anakin was powerful enough to maintain the balance between dark and light, but Anakin rejected the offer

-Relaunched Fact File 59


For a man who has already served the opposing roles of peacekeeping Jedi and war-time general, and given his preternatural Force abilities and high midi-chlorian count, it makes sense. If the Father can no longer preside over his dueling children, Son and Daughter, Anakin is the only one in the universe, it seems, strong enough to keep them in check in his absence, at least in this strange world that seems to operate purely on a metaphysical level.

-Overlords Rewatch

[left]
And remember, Anakin “has the power at his disposal” and is “ready to use it”


This is the potential Anakin unlocks for the Son because Anakin is that powerful, he is the balance. This also ties into how and why Anakin is THE shatterpoint and EVERYTHING depends on him, he is the key to controlling EVERYTHING, he is connected to everything so he affects everything, both Anakin and Mortis are points in the Force where all its energy converges, that are connected to all things, indeed Mortis and Anakin's internal Balance have the same affect on the galaxy, Anakin’s choice governs the storm that clouds the galaxy and so the prospect of him falling to the dark side terrifies Yoda, as Anakin's internal balance or the Balance on Mortis is affected so is the Galaxies balance synonymously

As his own internal balance was affected, so the galaxy fell to the dark side. the traditional forces of light, such as the Jedi Order, were decimated.
-Relaunched Fact File 23

"As the Balance on this world crumbles so too shall war escalate in your Galaxy"
-Overlords

As war enters its final, dramatic days, the fiery turmoil within Anakin Skywalker gathers strength and threatens to consume him. Localities and agendas rest at him from all sides conflicting demands are made of him and sacrifices begged. Though he knows it, not. The slave become saviour holds the fate of the galaxy in his artificial palm. His choice governs the coming storm, the tempest will either be tamed or it will be unleashed upon the galaxy as an unstoppable scourge. Binding all under the tyranny of the Sith -Slideshow Star Wars: Anakin Skywalker

The tangled web of fault lines in the Force he had seen connecting
Anakin to Obi-Wan and to Palpatine was no more; in their place was
a single spider-knot that sang with power enough to crack the
planet. Anakin Skywalker no longer had shatterpoints. He was a
shatterpoint.
The shatterpoint.
Everything depended on him.
Everything.
-Revenge of the Sith

Maul: He is the key to everything
Ahsoka: To bring balance to the Force?
Maul: …To destroy [The Force]
-The Phantom Apprentice

we stand before you disciples of the dark side intent on its supremacy, it has been foreseen that one lives who will control the universe. where. it is unknown but know this, the chosen one is the key, he who controls Skywalker will control everything, we tell you this to guarantee your success -Ghosts of Mortis - Deleted Scene


"Terrifies me, this possibility does, though feel fear I know we Jedi must not. If Anakin were ever to fall...the prospects for the galaxy, dire would be. We must hope the balance he brings is for good" -Clone Wars Comic UK #7: Yoda Code

And it ended up being that the Jedi needed to die out, everything Anakin did was in keeping with the prophecy, he was the mechanism for which the force cleaned up the Jedi out of the universe and brought balance! Sure the Sith had to go as well, but the Jedi needed to go first, in killing the Jedi Anakin was fulfilling his destiny, acting as the Force, The Jedi failed Anakin, and so it was the Sith he passed the trial for, the Sith who got to him first.

The midi-chlorians have brought Anakin into being as 'the chosen one' who brings balance to the universe. The mystery around that theory is that we don't yet know whether the chosen one is a good or a bad person. He is to bring balance to the Force; but at this point, we don't know what side of the Force needs to be balanced out. -George Lucas- The Making of Episode 1, Random House, 1999

And at the end of the day, one of the questions that I guess I pose is, is that really a good thing? Is Anakin’s way of being so compassionate wrong? Because on a certain level, you have to accept that the Jedi lose the Clone War. So there is something that they’re doing that’s wrong. There’s something they’re doing that doesn’t work and that the dark side is exploiting. If anything, it’s Luke’s overwhelming compassion and love for his father that in the end overthrows the Emperor because it’s something that he doesn’t understand. So as far back as Anakin, there is a seed of an idea of love and compassion, which admittedly in Attack of the Clones, the Jedi say they’re lacking because they’ve become arrogant and very sure of themselves.
-Dave Filoni

KNIGHTFALL

-Battles For the Galaxy

-Relaunched Fact File 106

-Relaunched Fact File 106

-Relaunched Fact File 106

Lucas discusses the tone with him "This is Anakin's greatest moment; he's got all these new powers everything is fine"

-Making of Revenge of the Sith: George Lucas



Archives

ANAKIN: Is Obi-Wan going to protect you? He can't ... he can't help you. He's not strong enough. PADME: Anakin, all I want is your love.


ANAKIN: Love won't save you, Padme. Only my new powers can do that. PADME: At what cost? You are a good person. Don't do this.


ANAKIN: I won't lose you the way I lost my mother! I've become more powerful than any Jedi has ever dreamed of and I've done it for you. To protect you. 

—

ANAKIN: Don't you see, we don't have to run away anymore. I have brought peace to the Republic. I am more powerful than the Chancellor. I can overthrow him, and together you and I can rule the galaxy. Make things the way we want them to be.

-Revenge of the Sith Script

[left]- Control of the entire Force reveals the truth of the Chosen One

LUKE’S CONNECTION TO ANAKIN

---

Now Luke does not share Anakin’s unique Chosen One powers, he is NOT the Chosen One and is not the embodiment of the Force, Fate of the Jedi sets a precedent for blood dilution in the Skywalker family, Ben is stronger than Jaina because she has two force using parents etc

The only thing Ben didn’t understand was why. There were hundreds of powerful young Jedi in the galaxy, and dozens right there on Coruscant. Yet Abeloth had gone to elaborate lengths to capture him, to lure him into a trap and separate him from his companions. There had to be something special about him— something that Abeloth needed from Ben that no other young Jedi could provide. The obvious answer, of course, was lineage. Ben was the only child of Luke Skywalker, who himself was the only son of the Chosen One, Anakin Skywalker. Of course, Jaina Solo was also a grandchild of the Chosen One—but only one of her parents had the Force. So that had to bewhat Abeloth needed from him—his bloodline. -Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse
-
”That doesn’t explain the focus on Ben,’ Kyle said, ‘if it was just a matter of being a Force-user, Abeloth could have taken Valin or Jysella—or one of her Sith servants—just as easily. It’s something else . . . something that makes Ben special. ‘Well, he is a Skywalker,’ Kyp Durron pointed out. ‘The grandson of the Chosen One.’ ‘And Jaina is a granddaughter of the Chosen One,’ Luke countered. ‘I’m more inclined to think it has something to do with Shelter. Maybe Abeloth just wants him because he withdrew from her touch when he was a toddler.’ Kyp shook his head. ‘Sorry, but no,’ he said. ‘Jaina is Han’s daughter just as much as Leia’s, and that means only one parent is a Force-user. Ben is the son of two parents who were very strong in the Force. No offense to Jaina, but Ben has Special Destiny written all over him.’ Luke’s face fell, and Jaina could tell by the silence that followed that he saw the wisdom of Kyp’s suggestion—as did everyone else at the table. Abeloth had gone after Ben because of what Ben was . . . and that meant she had something special in mind for him.”
-Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

And the same goes for Luke, Anakin is the embodiment of the Force, a being of pure force and it all stems from there, Luke is as much Padme’s son as he is Anakin’s which becomes obvious on Mortis when it’s established that the combined might of the Jedi can take the Daughter's place, and the combined Sith take the Son's

“And we must learn the truth about this latest incarnation of the Sith. Who is the Dark Man who came to my aid against Abeloth?” … “I said at the beginning of this entry that there are some wars only the Jedi can fight, and that is true. But it’s also true that only the Jedi can restore Balance to the Force. And to do so, we must dedicate ourselves completely to the Light.” -Essential Guide to Warfare
-
“The galaxy was tipping toward darkness before their eyes, and as far as Luke could see, the Jedi and their allies were the only ones capable of restoring the Balance. If they did not dedicate themselves completely to the light, all would be lost.” -Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

And then talks about how Anakin can embody it all, individually

In Yoda’s story, Obi-Wan and Anakin Skywalker encountered the Father when he was dying. The Son and the Daughter were at odds because the Son wanted to take the Father’s place. The Father told Anakin that he had been chosen to assume the Father’s place—and keep the balance between the two siblings. When Anakin refused, matters came to a head. The Ones fought, all three were slain, and their world died with them.” -Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

Which the thought of is jaw dropping for Jaina, the same Jaina who is privy to the full power of Luke Skywalker having literally channeled his spirit not too long ago

“I found confirmation in a report from Obi-Wan,” Luke said. “It was just as Yoda told me. Obi-Wan seemed to think that he and Anakin had been drawn to Mortis because the Father was dying and wanted Anakin Skywalker to take his place as the Keeper of the Balance.” Jaina’s jaw dropped. “Chosen One indeed,” she said. “What happened?” “Obviously Anakin didn’t accept,” Luke said. “The Son ended up murdering the Daughter with a special Force-imbued dagger, and the Father tricked the Son by sacrificing himself with the same dagger—so that Anakin could kill the Son. -Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

So Luke is not another Father like Anakin is, and he can’t let out that same power from within with a change of mindset, the same as the Father, Anakin wields the full power of Mortis from within himself, Mortis is a metaphor for his Furnace Heart, it's all connected within the highest level material


Without what I have laid out you are left with loads of story threads leading absolutely nowhere, what’s all the emphasis on Anakin's inner power about ? Why does it matter ? Why is he the key to everything ? What is the effect and purpose of his mental clouding ? Why does everyone want him to free himself ?


Furthermore if the claim is “Vaelias is completely wrong about all of this” then personally I’d say that’s an awful lot of coincidences lol why does everything make sense and weave together one concept into another so perfectly I don’t even need to spam you with embodiment of the force quotes from supplementary material it’s all just in the books and Movies/TCW plain and simple when properly picked apart, there are like a dozen more connections I could spam that lead to the exact same outcome


So with all said and done we’ll get onto the responses, I elaborate more on some of these concepts there

[/left]

DarthAnt66 wrote:All these quotes profess the existence of an understanding of Force power that is (1) generalizable to a single dimension [blue text], (2) quantifiable [red text], (3) the sole relevant consideration for Sith when choosing partners for duels [orange text], (4) usable across characters with very different relationships to the Force, like Anakin vs Vader vs the Emperor vs Luke, and (5) deemed sufficient for in-universe characters and the audience alike to understand the respective power-levels and motivations of characters. So, let’s rejoice! We already have half our work done for us. Regardless of how complex the inputs are — a character’s relationship to the Living Force versus the Cosmic Force, a character’s natural talent versus willpower and effort, etc. — we know the outputs for several characters. We can then even assess the accuracy of different input models based on how well it conforms to these outputs.

Vaelias is well-known for his elaborate “Force mechanics” that conclude Anakin is the most powerful character in the verse due to being the focal point of all the galaxy’s energy (not even true in itself). I look forward to reading the arguments in-depth but ultimately, saying, “Actually, there is a key element to Anakin’s power that Lucas is not bringing up,” is already set to be either irrelevant or impossible. Either (1) all those “Force mechanics” are already baked in Lucas’ model and still doesn’t change the fact that Anakin is explicitly not “extremely powerful” nor “very powerful” nor a “really super guy” nor 2x more powerful than the Emperor but instead, practically, exactly as powerful as the Emperor and with powers that Cin Drallig and Obi-Wan can block. Or, (2) Lucas just doesn’t agree with your “Force mechanics.”

There are a few things I take issue with here

-Firstly the claim that no matter what mechanics/concepts or powers that may exist, it all concludes at Anakin being equal to the emperor and a level 9 anyways, it doesn't matter the inputs because we have the output.

Anakin's tiering is based on Anakin holistically including his wonky mental state that goes all over the place, they even make note that Anakin is this level because he has not learned the mental side of it but the version of Anakin I am using here is a glimpse of Anakin with that mental side, it is ingrained into the narrative is that Zonakin and KFV are glimpses of what Anakin can be without those mental handicaps 

Nick Gillard wrote:Obi-Wan is at a level 8, which is where Anakin starts. But Anakin jumps to level 9 -- and the difference between 8 and 9 is enormous. A Jedi can get to level 9, but that's the difference between light and dark. The duel actually gives you quite an idea about these characters, because Anakin has learned the fighting, he's enormously talented - but he hasn't learned the mental side of it.

We even get Gillard saying what the Chosen One should have been would be surely a perfect ten in Lucas' mind, we have absolutely no reason to believe that "what the chosen one should have been" refers to some hypothetical future Anakin, the weight is constantly put on Anakin's mental aspect, what Anakin should have been is free, free of mental clouding and hinderance imposed upon him by the Jedi etc, this is what he would have become if he was trained by Qui-Gon who would have not confined him to fit within the Jedi's strict code. And it just so happens that the Chosen being free is what we see both on the Invisible Hand and during Order 66 (before the bridge scene ofc) 

Star Wars Theory Interview with Nick Gillard (2023)THEORY:oh wow you'd have them underneath a whole another level? you know was there ever a level 10?
 
 GILLARD: uh well it's funny you should say it because um when George first said it to me he only got to nine and that's exactly I thought I wonder you know if for him the chosen one the real you know when you get it really right what Anakin should have been was a 10. maybe you're a perfect 10. yeah yeah.

Now ofc this is only Nick's thoughts here and nothing solid but thought it interesting to bring up on the topic of Gillard and to highlight the distinction between Anakin with mental hinderance and Anakin without it,  needless to say I do not think that Anakin during his temple raid or in his last 12 seconds of fight with Dooku is confined within these rough tiering boundaries on the basis that the very point of those moments are that Anakin is free of the shortcomings that fit him within those tiers in the first place, there is also talk of Anakin being a Tier above what is even possible for anybody else, a tier that doesn't even exist, and its possible this concept could refer to the small glimpses of a "Free" Anakin although it cannot be said for sure since the tier system is always so inconsistent and weird which I think is one of the flaws in relying on it so heavily.   

Nick Gillard 2005 wrote:"There’s up to eight levels. Yoda is an eight, Mace Windu is an eight, Obi is a seven, but if you miss a level, it’s a bit like taking drugs to get enlightenment.” Anakin is the perfect example of messing with the established system. “I’ve got him down as an eight or nine, which doesn’t really exist,” says Gillard, before explaining that by turning to the Dark Side, Anakin skipped some essential steps. - Gillard

in a system going up to 7, Anakin is an 8 or 9, What is also interesting here is that the level above what everybody in ROTS is at seems to not even exist, so its possible that no matter how powerful you are, you aren't really getting past this in a combat sense, unless you are Anakin, so there is something there allowing Anakin to exceed those boundaries and id say it looks pretty certain Anakin taps into that during his "free" moments, when not even Dooku has a chance in infinity at defeating him, Gillard also talks about how during the Mustafar duel Anakin's full potential is bubbling out of him, its almost fully out but there's some resistance, Anakin in those free moments he doesn't have that resistance, and his full potential can shine through him easily as covered above.

“That’s an awesome way to spin it and I completely see what you are saying because you know technically he should have been better than Obi but because he was a little whacked out on some heroin he couldn’t focus his full potential, right?” Gillard: “OHHH his full potential is bubbling out of him and that’s dangerous shit because you know in those kind of fights it’s uhm like a prop pro boxer. They don’t get excited in there, they just knock them down and wait for the moment and that’s what Obi did all the way though there.” -Nick Gillard

Ill point out here too that Gillard's comment supports the idea that Anakin's full potential is something ever present and immediately accessible if its there and bubbling out of him already and not 40 years of mastery and 12 MMO boss fights away before he unlocks it lol, and the fact it is bubbling out of him in that moment when we know he is specifically mentally fucked only supports the idea that when he isn't mentally fucked that full potential has no issue shining through him, connect that to Anakin being a 10 when he is "what he should have been" 

-Secondly, the claim that nothing I say is true or else Lucas would talk about it more, and so this is a case where absence of evidence is evidence of absence.

This claim assumes that what I talk about in my opener is false because Lucas doesn't talk about it, assuming that these guys want to answer these questions directly, when we have it explicitly stated that they DO NOT want to directly answer questions about both the Force and The Chosen One, which are always talked about in relation to one another and shrouded in mystery, according to George you would need to pick it all apart in minute detail to really find those hidden details, Luckily I've done this   

You’ll notice on this box set there is no length documentary on the Mortis Trilogy, Christian Taylor who wrote the trilogy and myself, we both firmly believe that we should really not answer directly a lot of the questions about Mortis. Was that really Qui-Gon Jinn that appeared to Obi-Wan in the cave or not, what does it mean that Ahsoka talks to her older self, will she ever reach that age, who was the Father, what does it mean now that Anakin’s the Chosen One and that he has a better understanding of that, we have answers to those questions for sure, but if I answer directly what something is I feel like I’ll be robbing you of the purpose of that arc, which is to make you wonder to challenge certain ideas, to ask questions, there are many mysteries in Star Wars, there are many mysteries on the planet Mortis, I think George really started to delve back into the Mythology that he created about the Force itself, and we started to see some of those elements personified in the Father the Son and the Daughter. George is highly involved in all aspects of this series but when we deal directly with the Force, Christian Taylor and I feel strongly that you know that word has to come directly from George, a lot of the notes on Mortis come from a really old binder that George has that has his original writings on what the Force is and what makes it up. 
-Dave Filoni - Secrets of Mortis Featurette

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In Apocalypse Troy Denning did a lot of work with the Celestials and tie-ins to The Clone Wars “Mortis Trilogy” episodes. How fine of a line did you have to walk there in keeping with canon and keeping some things mysterious?

LC: Dave Filoni brought the Mortis Trilogy episodes to my attention very early on because we knew it would have huge ramifications over our understanding the Force. We had lengthy discussions about Animation’s plans for these characters, and I would run ideas by him and update him on our plans to tie them into Publishing’s efforts. Dave was very supportive of our tying Mortis into the EU and I constantly sought his guidance on areas where there was the potential for conflicting continuity. When you talk about lines being drawn, the thing to understand is that different lines will be drawn for different mediums. That the series even crossed the line of explaining the prophecy of the Chosen One was a line none of us aside from George thought we’d ever cross. I think any line you draw after that seems much less consequential.
-Apocalypse Leland Chee interview

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”A lot of the concepts of Star Wars are very hard to, really go into in a simple way because they’re far too complex in the end. You know, I put them out there, a very superficial thing, you’d have to really start pulling it apart, and to spend a lot of time to get to the bottom of what’s really going on, especially in terms of thematic issues that are involved in most of this.”
-The Phantom Menace Directors Commentary with Cast and Crew: George Lucas

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”All the seeds have been planted in these movies, in little moments, little lines, in things that, hopefully, when one sees all six together, will resonate back and forth between all the movies, and reveal things.”
- The Empire Strikes Back Directors Commentary with Cast and Crew: George Lucas

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Bringing midichlorians into it, as a device is something that existed from the beginning but I never really had the time to go into any explanation because every time the rather larger concepts come into play, how does the galaxy work, what is the force altogether, you have to be very sort of, cryptic and deal in almost fortune cookie descriptions of things, so it’s very difficult to get a concept across but I figured this whole movie I could begin to bring out the idea of midichlorians and their job in being sensitives to the force and why some people are more susceptible to the force and than others
-The Phantom Menace Directors Commentary with Cast and Crew: George Lucas

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The Star Wars universe is based on these integrated concepts, which are repeated over and over again within the story, some people think these comsic rules don't exist, but like gravity they affect our daily lives
-George Lucas Archives

So Mortis is about the Force and the Chosen One, about which they do not wish to reveal direct answers, but do so through small details that you have to pick apart and connect to reveal, George explicitly disagrees with your claims

DarthAnt66 wrote:This is a case where absence of evidence is indeed evidence of absence. Lucas clearly wants to talk about the power-level dynamics of Anakin, the Emperor, Vader, and Luke. He brings it up in most of his available opportunities. And he goes out of his way to tell people like Hayden Blackman how to think of Anakin versus Vader. If Lucas thought Anakin was Top Dog because he’s the fulcrum of universal energies, he would mention that somewhere! But he never says anything remotely related to that. Not once. 

We also have tens of hours of footage of Nick Gillard, Matthew Stover, James Luceno, and Dave Filoni talking about Force powers and what they learned from talking with Lucas. And despite speaking to quite in-depth Force mechanics, again no one says anything remotely related to what you are talking about. Instead, Gillard has recently said the Emperor is a step above Anakin if anything, Stover has said a fight between Anakin and Mace is overall very close [green text], and Filoni has said that he never thought of Anakin as particularly very powerful. (Again, the point isn't that they think Anakin is near Mace or below the Emperor—the point is that they are obviously not aware of some underlying Force theory that necessitates Anakin's supremacy.) These “Force mechanics” are either just utterly not important or not true.

I really don't think George would give a big thumbs up to ignoring all these little details he explicitly set up and tells us to look for, in favor of some tier system comments he made for the film choreography which don't even appear entirely consistent(most of which come from Nick anyways), I'm not saying ignore all that entirely, I think it has its place and uses, but I don't think it should or is meant to overrule or retcon any of those integrated story points that Lucas sets specific precedents for, like Anakin's fog of lies, him being invincible if he just trusts his feelings etc. it works as a rough framework for the fights but when you go deeper into characters relationships with the force, the prophecy, Anakin's relation to the Father and everything added in TCW or in the novels, and everything surrounding Anakin's mental struggle it becomes too complex to use the tier system as a blanket statement for every version of Anakin irrespective of his mindset or any of those qualities that place his character in that tier to begin with, a perfect Anakin is a perfect Anakin and that is the way KFV or Zonakin is set up in the story and its not limited or confined to the state of Anakin's character generally, plagued with fear and guilt but getting through it by raw power/skill etc. That is not the version of Anakin I am using here. We cannot just assume the tier system comments retcon these specific details, I think Lucas would scowl at the idea tbh

DarthAnt66 wrote:And so, Anakin is “as strong as the Emperor” and has “the powers the Emperor has" [purple text]. In fighting ability, Lucas ranks Anakin and the Emperor as both level 9s on a 10-level scale [purple text].

Never does Lucas suggest that Anakin lost power or fighting ability between the part of the movie where we never even see him fight besides a five second hologram and the big final duel. He freely speaks of Anakin in general terms, in varying contexts, and without fail places Anakin right with the Emperor. Lucas even speaks to Anakin’s dark side power-progression very chronologically, power building on power as tests are completed:

Again I don't think the whole "absence of evidence is evidence of absence" thing holds up here, I don't think Lucas would even want to reveal that, at least not directly, we shouldn't just be waiting for Lucas to tell us stuff when the answers are in the material and explicitly hidden in little details for us to pick apart, we know what confliction does, we see Anakin crying, that is how Lucas tells us, and then we get that elaborated on in the novel that Lucas line edited, I doubt he is just changing everything down to the wordings of certain lines but leaving in massive differences like Anakin being conflicted and hindered when in fact he actually wasn't, just because Lucas didn't directly say it, again we don't need to be spoonfed these details by Lucas to recognize them and the fact Lucas doesn't spoonfeed it to us certainly isn't evidence of the contrary, especially when he explicitly says that he isn't going to reveal everything and that we need to look for stuff ourselves. Besides the emperors instructions for Anakin to be too strong to control is that he shed his fog of lies put there by the Jedi, which is what he did fighting Dooku, and later on you have Anakin complaining about the Jedi, saying he feels lost etc, that fog comes back, so there's these little details that show us how Anakin's power fluctuates throughout the film, Lucas isn't going to tell us these things.

Lucas absolutely does suggest that if we pay attention to Anakin's guilt and his fog of lies, as mentioned above the given way for Anakin to become too strong to control is to break through the fog of lies, we see Anakin do this, and we have him crying on the bridge after, as well as Lucas saying this is the first time he gets to think about it and it all builds up on him and his fog comes back, a lot of these concepts are elaborated in the line edited novel but still are very much apparent in the film in these small details.

Revenge of the Sith wrote:They know your future they know your power will be too strong to control, you must break through the fog of lies the Jedi have created around you

Lucas also says Anakin has "unparalleled force abilities" "the ultimate enforcer" etc so there is clearly a lot more to it than what you are simplifying it to and Chee states that licensed integrated concepts provide a more precise understanding of George Lucas's actual thoughts, as opposed to interviews where George may only be sharing spontaneous ideas. Licensed integrated concepts go through careful consideration and collaboration, ensuring they align with George's overall vision and intentions. the concepts are all heavily reviewed, making them more reliable than off-the-cuff remarks made during interviews when George speaks in interviews, he might be drawing from memory or discussing ideas in a general, unspecific manner. His comments in such settings are often brief and may lack the depth and context provided by the integrated concepts, his spontaneous statements can be influenced by the context of the conversation, the questions asked, or even his mood at the time. They do not undergo the same rigorous vetting process as licensed integrated concepts, which are meticulously crafted to reflect his true vision, This is what Chee tells us but you seem to completely disagree when you are emphasizing these brief interview answers over these concepts and even going as far as saying that the fact George doesn't bring them up in interviews is evidence of absence, and that this is a case where absence of evidence in the interviews is evidence of absence. you are literally saying the opposite of what Chee says lol.

starwars.com forum HolocronKeeper comments archive wrote:

Going back to the point I made above, the G-Canon Databank should be a much more insightful thorough view of George's beliefs than his interview comments, meaning that Anakin having "unparalleled force abilities" for example is more sincere than using the negatives of George's words from rough interview comments to imply the opposite, It simply does not hold weight or authority to do anything for you here when this quote exists on the contrary, and we have Chee telling us the opposite of what you are trying to push.



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DarthAnt66 wrote:That is not to say Lucas doesn’t think the contextual circumstances around the Mustafar duel didn’t have any deliberating effects; rather, it didn’t affect his pure power or fighting ability. The only source that comments on this, the Episode III junior novel, has Anakin's dark side emotions even explicitly increasing his raw power.

You seem to accept that there are possibly "contextual circumstances" around the Mustafar duel that could have had deleterious effects, in acknowledging that implicit details not explicitly stated might be significant. yet you seem to inconsistently dismiss the possibility that Anakin’s powers could be implicitly diminished in some ways not directly addressed by Lucas, why is it so far fetched that his shortcomings come by way of power as opposed to anything else, by your logic shouldn't any shortcomings be equally non-existent due to them not being explicitly specified, or is it only when it comes to power that we apply that rule? But as explained in my opener I don't think it is so much a power drop more a drop in Anakin's efficiency to pull power through him because his full power cannot shine through him without resistance.

DarthAnt66 wrote:So, per Lucas’ own words, using his own dimension and scale:

Darth Vader: 80
Episode III Anakin: 100
Episode III Emperor: 100
Full potential Luke: well above 100

We can simplify it to just these numbers because Lucas does.

And so the only question remaining powerwise is how much did Luke realize of his potential?

I think one big problem here is using the Emperor as a measuring stick for Anakin, when Anakin is the measuring stick for the Emperor.

There is a precedent set by Lucas that Anakin unlocks the full power of the dark side, the Son wants him because he unlocks his full potential and allows him to control everything and destroy the Force, It's Anakin that is the measuring stick and this is all mirrored in the films with the relationship between Anakin and Sidious, so when the Son seduces Anakin and bonds with him he gets Anakin's powers which enable him to control everything, destroy the Force and unlock the full potential of the dark side

Altar of Mortis wrote:By bringing the Chosen One here you've shown me my potential, you've only yourself to blame

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Ghosts of Mortis: Deleted Scene wrote:Know this, The Chosen One is the key, he who controls Skywalker will control everything

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The Phantom Apprentice wrote:He is the Key to everything

To bring balance to the force?

To destroy

This is what The Chosen One's powers do and this is all symbolic of concepts in the films, so mirrored in the films, Anakin's powers are the powers the Emperor has the same as the Son and so the Emperor reaps the same benefits as the Son when he possesses Anakin in ROTS and gets his powers, and what does Lucas say happens to those powers in the same interview?... they diminish

”Vader would’ve become infinitely more powerful if he hadn’t ended up his suit, if he hadn’t become half man, half machine which diminishes his powers considerably, which were the powers the Emperor has."
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"Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn’t been debilitated and now he’s half machine and half man, so he’s lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he’s lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor. But Luke hasn’t.
-George Lucas, 2004 Episode V DVD Commentary

And then who does George call a "Little broken old man"

GEORGE LUCAS:  Up to that point you haven't seen the Emperor. He's this little broken old man.
-George Lucas | Archives

Both Vader and the Emperor are broken and crippled, everybody is crippled in the OT, and there is absolutely no reason to arbitrarily exclude just one broken cripple from Lucas statements about broken cripples all being weaker than the Jedi in TPM

GEORGE LUCAS: we'd only seen crippled, old, half-droid half-men and young boys that'd learned from these old people. So, to see a, a Jedi in his prime, fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I wanted it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we'd been doing."
-George Lucas, Star Wars Episode I: Fights Featurette

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Despite his other roles, Park is still best known to fans as Darth Maul - not that he minds. His duel with Qui-Gon Jinn was the first proof that Jedi from the prequels would demonstrate far more power and agility than they had in the Classic Trilogy -Insider #70

Anakin and the Emperor have the same powers, those powers are diminished and so they are both broken, so that 100 figure that the Emperor represents in ROTS is not the same 100 figure he represents in the OT. 
100% of the Emperor in ROTS with Vader at full power, and 100% of the Emperor in the OT with Vader at 20% less than even that, are two different things when you consider that Vader/The Chosen One is the source of The Emperors powers  

Another issue I see here is a misinterpretation of what Luke "could become" and the Emperors goals here, lets have another look at the quotes...

DarthAnt66 wrote:Anakin would have become “twice as good as the Emperor” but he got maimed. Vader is instead “maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor.” With Luke, the Emperor can get “a more primo version.”
• The Emperor wants “somebody who would be more powerful than he was.” Anakin was already “as strong as the Emperor” in Episode III, but then he got maimed. But Luke “could become” what Anakin “was supposed to become.”
• Luke “hasn’t” “lost a lot of his ability to become more powerful than the Emperor,” meaning he can be.
• The Emperor believes Luke “can destroy us.” Vader interprets this as in a fighting context, saying, “You can destroy the Emperor. He has foreseen this.” (Note that based on Episode VI drafts, this is actually the Emperor using the royal we, meaning he is saying, “Luke can destroy me.)
• Though the difficulty is inconsistent (“might” versus “easy”), Vader’s whole plan in Episode VI is for the Emperor to turn Luke to the dark side so that Vader and Luke can then team up. Per Lucas, Vader believes it “will be easy” to kill the Emperor because “we are a team,” or at least “might” be able to, whereas Vader “knows” he cannot alone.*

* (If one accepts the premise that a dark side Luke could one-day certainly destroy the Emperor, that means the “might” must be referring to Luke and Vader teaming up within Episode VI itself. The surrounding context of the “might” already presumes that Luke and Vader have teamed up. So, the only situation where it could even be a “might” is if Luke joins Vader during the film. This makes sense as Episode VI was marketed as the “final chapter of the Star Wars saga.” Vader must be granted by Lucas the possibility of materializing his plan within the film, or else the audience would already know he lost... an ending where all three of them still live with the final fight sometime in the future is not a true ending.)

And, per the Episode VI novel:

• The Emperor “fears Luke’s power” and that it could be turned on the Emperor the same way Vader turned on Ben Kenobi, and this fear captures the Emperor’s “nakedest self.”
• Vader is very confident that a Luke who had “more extensive tutelage” under him and the Emperor would be able to destroy the Emperor, at least with his help.

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George Lucas, 2005 Vanity Fair interview wrote:“Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful,” he says. “But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there’s not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he’s maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor. So that isn’t what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan. So he finds that, with Luke, he can get a more primo version if he can turn Luke to the Dark Side. You’ll see, as this goes on, Luke is faced with the same issues and practically the same scenes that Anakin is faced with. Anakin says yes and Luke says no.”

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George Lucas, 2005 Rolling Stones interview wrote:"And when he finds out Luke is his son, his first impulse is to figure out a way of getting him to join him to kill the Emperor. That's what Siths do! He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn't as strong as the Emperor—he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku. He wasn't what he was supposed to become. But the son could become that."

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George Lucas, 2004 Episode V DVD commentary wrote:"Anakin would have been able to do it if he hadn’t been debilitated and now he’s half machine and half man, so he’s lost a lot of the power of the Force, and he’s lost a lot of his ability to be more powerful then the Emperor. But Luke hasn’t."

All these quotes tell us is that Luke is a worthy Banite apprentice, and its specifically mentioned that this is what the Emperor was after "in the first place" which ofc is with Maul and Dooku, anything Luke gets here can also be attributed to Maul and Dooku. big whoop. These comments have absolutely nothing to do with the Chosen One prophecy and Luke being able to become what Anakin could if he didn't get chopped up an die or anything like that, Lucas is speaking in the context of plain and simple Banite progression, the thing that Luke "could become" is a worthy Banite apprentice, the same as Maul or Dooku. The aim of a Banite apprentice is to surpass the master and become twice as powerful, Maul and Dooku didn't achieve that neither can Vader now because of his injuries, Maul and Dooku are explicitly supposed to become the same thing as Luke. Lucas is not speaking to any chosen one powers here at all its simple Banite mechanics, Anakin was good before, he isn't now, all Lucas does for Luke is put him as a better option for a Banite apprentice than suit Vader who he essentially calls a little bitch at every opportunity, so good on Luke ig but that's not really much. 

- Luke is a better Banite apprentice than Suit Vader, who can no longer surpass the Emperor
- Luke can surpass the Emperor in true Banite fashion just like Maul, Dooku and Anakin were meant to
- Together they can defeat the Emperor

all this becomes a lot less impressive when you consider Lucas thinks the Emperor is a little broken old man who is weaker than TPM Kenobi 

DarthAnt66 wrote:Luke does become the reborn Emperor’s apprentice to "know the dark side's ways and finds its weaknesses" and is filled with so much knowledge that he ends up "perhaps learning more about the dark side than he wants to know." Luke becomes "consumed by anger and hate," "follows his father's path," and says he "found knowledge, all the dark things father knew so well," overall learning "the depths of the dark side." Luke “had done and and experienced greater evil than perhaps any man had known.” Luke was so thoroughly corrupted that his very consciousness was buried deep within himself, wholly unaware of his location and forgetful of his very identity as Luke Skywalker. This is a level of dark side submersion far deeper than Anakin's and akin to the Episode VI novel’s characterization of Vader, who had long forgotten his memories as Anakin and even the existence of Padme. And Luke’s understanding of the dark side is not superficial, for he is able to “transmute and turn” all his lessons against the Emperor as a Jedi, signifying high-level mastery to reverse-engineer everything into its light side counterparts.

Vader's loss of memory is not the same as Luke's burying of consciousness, he isn't forgetting Luke Skywalker and those memories and pretending its a different person like Vader is, Vader is actively trying to block that out and forget, Luke is just experiencing the typical loss of self associated with the dark side, he has started on that path, once you do one wrong deed, its easy to do it again and again and get stuck in that loop, you lose yourself in that sense but that isn't to be confused with Vader's intentional blocking out of the memory of Anakin, besides I don't think Luke experiences nearly the same immersion as Anakin during Order 66, for one, Luke can still be sensed by Leia while on the dark side, but when Ahsoka tried to touch Anakin during Order 66 she thought he was completely dead, Anakin was completely gone during Order 66 because his devotion to corrupting himself was based entirely on the belief that that is what would save Padme, and I doubt Luke's curiosity to discover what his father was so obsessed about outweighs Anakin's devotion to save Padme 

-Sam Witer | IGN CineFix's Return of the Jedi Watch Party wrote:There was going to be a piece of dialogue that explained this that was excised from the finale, that Lucas explained that when your a Jedi and you think of your friends you can sort of touch them in the force you can just kinda reach out, you think of your friend and you get a good feeling that their out there and you look out at the star lit sky and there’s stars out there and every one of them is a Jedi right, and then when the empire starts taking over the stars Star winking out until order 66 boom almost all of them are gone almost at once, and when Ashoka reaches out to try and touch her friend Anakin… he’s gone, she does not sense Anakin Skywalker he is, he is no longer there, so her assumption is he was killed in whatever it is that happened, so you know that idea that Anakin Skywalker died when he did in Revenge of the Sith was also built into the Clone Wars series was also built into George’s understanding of how the Force works and how these things work

Luke also later (in TUF) describes his time as the Emperors apprentice as "a close brush with the dark side" anyways, the same being said for KFV is almost laughable, lol.
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DarthAnt66 wrote:Anakin is someone equally powerful as the Emperor.

TUF Luke is someone more powerful than the Emperor. By this point, Luke is beyond even the most conservative figures for when he should have outstripped the Emperor, despite fully wielding the dark side in power and knowledge anyway (explained in section III)*.

This all falls apart when you consider the deeper details about what makes up the emperors powers, but yes Luke has surely surpassed little broken old man by TUF so maybe he is getting up there with TPM guys by now, indeed that is what is hinted at in New Jedi Order: Traitor, surpassing "any living Jedi, even Uncle Luke" followed by "even the Jedi Knights of old" sets up a hierarchy where the Jedi Knights of old are positioned as the benchmark of power at the top. The use of "even" suggests that surpassing the Jedi Knights of old is a significant, even more challenging achievement than surpassing any current Jedi, including Luke.

He could follow Anakin’s path. He could be pure warrior. He could be even greater than his brother had been: with the dark power he could command, he could surpass any living Jedi, even Uncle Luke. Surpass even the Jedi Knights of old.
He could be the greatest sword of the Force who had ever lived.”
-New Jedi Order: Traitor

So all this stuff for Luke in the OT and in DE is all well and good but then he is still just weaker than the Jedi of Old by Traitor, which is just the Knights of the TPM era in general, so no matter how powerful Luke may appear in Dark Empire he is still weaker than a random Knight from TPM 17 years later, It's like what you said above about no matter what mechanics may exist it all just still adds up to the same thing

DarthAnt66 wrote:Regardless of how complex the inputs are — a character’s relationship to the Living Force versus the Cosmic Force, a character’s natural talent versus willpower and effort, etc. — we know the outputs for several characters. We can then even assess the accuracy of different input models based on how well it conforms to these outputs.

Regardless of how complex the inputs are, we know the output, the power of Luke as of Traitor is still sub TPM Kenobi no matter how cool Dark Empire was. and this isn't just some rouge quote, this is a concept repeated dozens of times though out almost the entire EU, here are a few for reference

Luke waited again, trembling faintly. He had tried everything he knew. Callista had undergone other training in her own years as a Jedi. She knew things Luke had never imagined-but even she knew of no way to tear away the smothering blanket around her, the blindness that prevented her from using the Force.
-Darksaber

Q: With your Jedi Academy trilogy and your work on the Young Jedi Knights series, you put great effort into establishing Luke Skywalker’s new Jedi order after Return of the Jedi. Since the creative team now working on the sequel trilogy will soon be facing that same challenge, what were your thoughts behind the overall philosophy and moral underpinnings you created for Luke’s Jedi Knights? And how would you feel about finding some of your creations, such as a Jedi Academy on Yavin IV or multiple apprentices for a single master, in the new movies?

A: Jedi-Akademie To be very clear, all of my work for Lucasfilm was done FOR them, and they are perfectly welcome to use any and all of my ideas in any fashion they like. Even though my Jedi Academy trilogy established Luke's attempts to recreate the Jedi Knights, it is an obvious idea to extend the history after Return of the Jedi. I would love to see them use some of my ideas in the new films, but they are under no obligation to. When I was writing the trilogy, I wanted Luke to understand the need to bring back the Jedi Knights as strong forces for the light side, but also be aware of the potential dangers. Even though he was the most powerful Jedi still alive at the time, Luke would have been a rank amateur a few decades earlier. That's a lot of pressure for a person!
Interview with Kevin J. Anderson

“He was a botanist and a savant,” said Jevax. “A Jedi Master of
great age, we’ve heard; a Ho’Din from the planet Moltok
-Children of the Jedi
(This is in reference to Master Plett, some random botanist Jedi from CW era, Luke is a rank amateur in comparison years after Dark Empire)

After Ben Kenobi and Yoda, Luke was mostly self taught, and a lot of his learning focused on making him a better teacher. Mace mastered a clearly more versatile fighting style than Luke's, and he was a Jedi Master for a longer time than Luke was, even by The New Jedi Order era. He knows tricks that Luke never even thought of trying. Luke's eclectic learning might let him surprise Mace once or twice, but ultimately, Luke would switch off his lightsaber and acknowledge Mace as the superior combatant. But I think they'd both be sweating by then.
-Wizards of the Coast, Starwars.com

The Jedi were able to store vast amounts of information in small repositories known as Holocrons. Often created by ancient Jedi, most were destroyed during the purges of Emperor Palpatine
-Fact File #46

and all of this actually aligns with Lucas' comment about Luke not even being able to cope with the force on a real level until about 20 years after the movie, according to Lucas TUF Luke should only just be coming to terms with coping with the Force on a real level, which you seem to acknowledge, yet also say "By this point, Luke is beyond even the most conservative figures for when he should have outstripped the Emperor" which is fine by me but when you are holding the Emperor as some god tier figure and not as a little broken old man it doesn't quite seem to add up, is Luke just starting to come to terms with the force like a real Jedi or is he multiple stomp gaps above everybody we see in any of the films and more powerful than anybody in the verse, which one is it? so again no matter what the inputs the output is Luke is still just starting to be a real Jedi around mid NJO (or 20 odd years after TESB)

DarthAnt66 wrote:Although these are older quotes, Lucas’ conception of the Emperor by 1977 is not much different than his modern one. Lucas still regards 1977 Emperor as “the personification of the bad side of the Force,” “even more powerful than Vader,” “the classic devil character, a hooded, dark figure,” and as a level 6 on a 10-scale, “on his way to becoming a 10, which will be a force so powerful in the universe that nothing can stop him.” Moreover, the fact he would have Luke defeat the Emperor in Episode IX suggests the Emperor would have grown radically more powerful than his Episode V self anyway. And there’s not much indication that Lucas has negatively revised his opinion of Luke’s Force potential. The only apparent change is turning his father from a “powerful Jedi Knight” to a virgin-birth Chosen One, making Luke even more special.

You say changing Anakin from a powerful Jedi to a virgin birth Chosen One like its not the biggest change they could have made in relation to this topic, especially after TCWS3 where we get more insight into what the Chosen One is, that being essentially a second Father (all talked about in my opener) Luke was initially just another powerful Jedi like his Father, and that doesn't change when Anakin becomes the Chosen One, Luke remains just a powerful Jedi, he is as much Padme's kid as he is Anakin's and as talked about in my opener the EU sets a precedent for blood dilution, Luke does not share Anakin's potential and is not the Chosen One, I think we can all agree there, its Anakin who is made into the embodiment of the Force/Force incarnate

DarthAnt66 wrote:The key difference between Lucas’ Luke and the EU’s Luke being EU Luke has done virtually everything conceivable up until the start of NJO. He has confronted a dozen super-powerful Force users of every discipline and endless Imperial Remnant forces. He has utterly fallen to the dark side and learned the darkest secrets of the Emperor. He has realized the power of redemption and love, the true interconnectedness of the Force and how to join with it as a luminous being. He has communed with Jedi survivors and spirits, recovered several forgotten libraries of Jedi knowledge, and trained dozens to Jedi Knighthood. He has been pushed to the brink of death, despair, or defeat more times than anyone on record. Which is to say that, some mechanism blocking his powers aside, Luke should have realistically realized his Good Supreme Wizard status long before 29 ABY.

Luke’s portrayal in the New Republic series varies significantly by author. But toward the end, he was often portrayed as having effectively limitless power in a way reminiscent of the Emperor. They have him fight villains repeatedly likened to the Emperor in power with a fraction of his strength, effortlessly rebuild and destroy mountain-size castles, cast permanent illusions over 1500 meter ships, tear off the hulls of Star Destroyers, among other feats. And this Good Supreme Wizard Luke angle was acknowledged by Star Wars officials and authors. High-ranking Lucasfilm official Shelly Shapiro notes authors had to deliberately weaken Luke “to make any fight fair enough to be even interesting” because Luke “was so all-powerful.” Shapiro also says that Luke was "impossible to deal with" writing-wise "since he'd become so omnipotent” and that Luke was “practically omnipotent.” Even Thrawn author Timothy Zahn, certified Luke Hater Enthusiast, became annoyed that Luke was a "superman-type character" and "too powerful" who could "just wave his hand and fix the problem on page four," and so sought to have a “final say” on the character by deliberating nerfing him for the Hand of Thrawn Duology. This is all to emphasize that it’s not as if Luke spontaneously became the Good Supreme Wizard in TUF, but rather that authors had been chewing on the idea since the 90s and it got markedly codified in TUF.

I agree I don't denounce any of that from Luke, but the output is still the same, he is only just coming to terms with the force and he is weaker than the Jedi of Old, even in Dark Nest Luke admits the light he represents is not as strong as the light represented by Yoda

“Thirty-five standard years ago, I became the last guardian of an
ancient order that had thrived for a thousand generations. During
all that time, no evil dared challenge its power, no honest being
ever questioned its integrity. Yet fall it did, brought low by the
treachery of a Sith Lord who disguised himself as a friend and an
ally. Only a handful of Masters survived, hiding in deserts and
swamps so that the bright light that was the Jedi order would not be
extinguished.”
Luke paused here and exchanged gazes with Leia. Her face had
been lined by four decades of sacrifice and service to the galaxy, yet
her brown eyes still shined with the intensity of her youth. At the
moment, they were also shining with curiosity. Luke had not
discussed what he intended to say even with her.
He looked back to the other Jedi. “Under the guidance of two of
those Masters, I became the instrument of the Jedi’s return, and I
have dedicated myself to rekindling the light of their order. Ours
may be a smaller, paler beacon than the one that once lit the way
for the Old Republic, but it has been growing, both in size and in
brilliance.”
-Dark Nest III: The Swarm War

Luke representing the Light


Yoda representing the Light

"What’s the opposite of a black hole? Cronal had heard this cosmological theory before: that matter falling into a black hole passes into another universe… and that matter falling through black holes in other universes could pass into ours, bursting forth in pure transcendent energy. The opposite of a black hole was a white fountain."​​. -Shadow of Mindor

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Then he turned around and smiled at her, and even beneath Yoda’s weariness and his worry she felt the deep springs of joy within him, a thousand fountains of it, inexhaustible, as if he were a crack in the mantle of the world, and the living Force itself bubbled through him. -Yoda Dark Rendezvous

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Sidious emerges from the glow of the sacrificial altar. The illusion has ended. Sidious has failed to break Yoda’s spirit. The Sith Lords will need more time to defeat Yoda and the Jedi -Sacrifice Episode Gallery

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Sidious has one more task to perform before his conquest is complete: to kill Yoda. Then the light side of the Force will be eclipsed, and the Jedi order will cease to exist -Revenge of the Sith Visual Dictionary

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"Are you so sure? If the Sith Lord wanted to attack the Jedi Order from within, Master Yoda would be the perfect choice. I fear we are more vulnerable than we think." -Voices Script

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"I sense we have a great opportunity to strike a deadly blow to the Jedi Order. But we must act swiftly." -Sacrifice Script

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"We have failed to break Master Yoda. He is strong. We will need more time if we are to defeat him and the Jedi." -Sacrifice Script

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In a burned out, industrial sector of Coruscant, Count Dooku’s solar sailer sets down in a secret hangar. He is greeted by his Master, Darth Sidious, who senses a great opportunity to strike a deadly blow against the Jedi Order -Sacrifice Episode Gallery

And that is the whole narrative going on there with Luke, as he speaks about in the above quote from Dark Nest, he is rekindling the light that's been sucked out of the Galaxy, the light that is the powerbase of the Jedi

He wasn’t sure if the weakness was in him or if, with the death of every Jedi, the war was leaching some of the Force out the universe. -- Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader

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Don't underestimate the power of the Force, The Jedi are extinct, their fire has gone out of the Universe, you my friend are all that's left of their religion -A New Hope

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He had thought of his diminished abilities as a personal failure—owing to the fact that he had lost his faith in the Jedi order, allowed his two Padawans to die, grown thought-bound—when, in fact, it was the Force as the Jedi had known it that had been defeated. The flame extinguished. -Dark Lord Rise of Darth Vader

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Obi-Wan reached out to the Force to find him, but met only the thin stirring of a barren world. It was strange to live in a galaxy now that had no Jedi in it. He hadn't realized that he had once felt a humming presence, alive with the Force-ability of his fellow Jedi. It had fed him, and he hadn't even known it. -The Last One Standing

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"The Jedi were hunted down by these deadly Sith knights. With every Jedi death, contact with the Ashla grows weaker, and the force of the Bogan grows more powerful. "Now, the Jedi are hidden; but many are still fighting to free the systems from the grip of the Empire... 
-The ADVENTURES OF THE STARKILLER EPISODE ONE: THE STAR WARS, (George Lucas, 1975)

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The old Jedi order died with the Old Republic. Then there was Luke, and only Luke, and a lot of fumbling to re-create Jedi from what little he knew of them. He did the best he could, and he made mistakes. I was one of them. His generation of Jedi was put together like a rickety space scow, but from it something new has emerged. It's not the old Jedi order, nor should it be. We, Jaina, are the new Jedi order. And this is our war.
-New Jedi Order: Edge of Victory II: Rebirth

Luke's whole journey his him fumbling around largely teaching himself trying to rebuild the Order and rekindle the Light, he isn't just instantly up at the top, according to Lucas Luke 20 years after the films is only getting started as a proper Jedi so he is probably still below any Jedi from a time when they where "the most powerful force in the galaxy" and had all that light side energy, which extends down to 1000 generations ago, so 20 years after the OT Luke and his light is probably still below where the Jedi were at 1000 generations ago, and that's been growing the whole time with Jedi creating light and the Order growing etc given that the PT is the "Prime of the Jedi" in all of those thousand generations in for which they where the most powerful force, this is a clear Lucas concept, George knows the Living Force is dead in the OT, he also establishes that the Dark Side needs the Living Force to live, its a cancer and the Living Force/Light Side is the host

Balance is the circle of life present in monolith systems. But beware, the greed of the dark side acts like a cancer on the living force, and the Sith are its chief agents. -Jedi Path

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The Emperor was trying to get rid of Vader, and Vader was trying to get rid of the Emperor. And that is the antithesis of a symbiotic relationship, in which if you do that, you become cancer, and you eventually kill the host, and everything dies. -Of Man and Myth | George Lucas

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"The Darkside is always there, it is experienced daily by people. It’s like a huge cancer, alive, festering - both a reminder of the moral state and, at the same time symptom and symbol of a very sick society" ~ George Lucas, “The Mythology of Star Wars”, Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth DVD, 2001

And this is why the Death of the Daughter weakens the Son, the host is dead, and of course this is mirrored in the movies with Sidious becoming a "little broken old man" and so Sidious is after those Chosen One powers, Anakin is the host, when Anakin/His Host/Living Force presence is diminished so is the Emperor

Though the Son was powerful, the loss of the Daughter and then the Father weakened him sufficiently for Anakin to destroy him. Ironically, he had brought balance to the Force - and not for the last time
- Relaunched Fact File 75

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Realising all was lost, the Father killed himself to strip the Son of his power, and to allow Anakin to destroy the dark side avatar. This restored a fragile balance to the Force
-Relaunched Fact File 75

Ghosts of Mortis wrote:You and I are tied together and your strength runs through me, this way I take your power

The Father kills himself to strip the Son of his power, much like Anakin kills Vader to weaken the Emperor enough for him to kill him, its all mirrored between ROTJ and Mortis, there's that link between their power, the dark has corrupted the balance but then the balance cleanses itself of corruption and kills the dark now that its weakened, Sidious is weakened initially in ROTS with the loss of Living Force as seen with the Daughters death on Mortis, and then is weakened again enough to be killed by Anakin in ROTJ, he loses his host/power source, he loses Anakin's arms and legs and gets weaker and then loses Anakin all together and dies.

so with that life force gone you can see why Lucas thinks the OT is all crippled and below the PT the whole Galaxy is crippled and its part of Luke's journey to fix a lot of that and its gonna take him 20 years before he even comes to grips with even doing that properly, as I was saying above these smaller details exist and must be taken into account for a full understanding of what Lucas thinks, Luke can be a supreme wizard who is above and beyond many of the threats he faces in his time but that doesn't change him in comparison to the Jedi of Old (TPM Jedi) of whom Anakin is infinitely beyond, and these Force Mechanics need to be taken into account, because like it or not, they are there and clearly aren't just "my force mechanics" that Lucas doesn't agree with, although that would be convenient for you. I am basing all these mechanics off of Lucas material you know, I'm not just making stuff up out of thin air  

Also connect all of that to Ahsoka not being able to sense Anakin, the dark side is the opposite of Living Force its Dying Force, Anakin is essentially dead, he is fully corrupted, the same cannot be said for Luke in Dark Empire.

DarthAnt66 wrote:Luke’s final state in TUF is prompted by a discussion with Jacen. To summarize:

• Jacen tells Luke that Luke fears falling to the dark side but that Vergere contends there is no dark side. Rather, what the Jedi call the dark side is just the raw, unrestrained Force.
• Luke reflects that he has associated anger with the dark side since Dark Empire and instead perhaps the dark side can be jettisoned by self-awareness. He concludes his fear has held him back from incorporating the raw, unrestrained Force into his awareness.
• Luke continues saying that even Vergere’s conception of the Force is limited to the physical world but they are truly beings of light, the PT Jedi Order’s emphasis on control blinded them to the Unifying Force, his past Force fatigue stems from his fear of abusing his raw, unrestrained Force, and while nature finds a balance in the Force, the light side and the dark side are real and materialize through sentience.
• Luke and Jacen conclude that likely through the Unifying Force, Force spirits exist and Jedi have power to glimpse the future.

When we see Luke in battle next, he is completely changed.

The rest of my post will be breaking that down.

• Luke “was his own vortex” and “a maelstrom of luminous energy, a Force storm against which there was no shelter.”
• “All” of Luke’s “energy poured from a calm center; an eye.”
• “None” of Luke’s “actions were interrupted by thought” and he “didn’t seem to be there at all—physically or as an individual personality”
• Per the Essential Reader’s Companion: “Luke gives himself fully to the Force, becoming a whirlwind of devastation, slashing through Yuuzhan Vong guards.”

According to Vergere, the power of the dark side is the raw, unrestrained Force, just misnamed. According to Luke, and seemingly accepted by Jacen, the power of the dark side is the raw, unrestrained Force that is then tainted by evil intentions. Thus, it's possible to wield the practical power of the dark side without being corrupted if one can embrace the raw, unrestrained Force without being seduced to do evil. Luke has believed this is a nigh-impossible task since Dark Empire, but he tries anew and succeeds.

Luke succeeds by bringing forth the raw, unrestrained Force “from” a “calm” and introspective center. Typically, such raw power is brought forth through willpower, forcing it through oneself like a Sith. But Luke is calm, watchful. The dynamic begets the facilitator of Luke’s raw po