Home
Gallery
FAQ
Search
Log in
Register
The Outcasted One
SS - Arena of the Unknowns: Thon (Darthor) vs Yarael Poof (XannotZan)
November 14th 2023, 10:14 pm
Standard forum rules apply, no character limits but try to keep posts concise, 2 weeks time limit, 5 meters starting distance, all characters in their prime, yada yada yada
BartModerator
Re: SS - Arena of the Unknowns: Thon (Darthor) vs Yarael Poof (XannotZan)
November 16th 2023, 11:21 am
THON
- XanNotZan
Re: SS - Arena of the Unknowns: Thon (Darthor) vs Yarael Poof (XannotZan)
November 16th 2023, 1:48 pm
Commenting so I can promise myself I'll do this post tbh
The Prodigal Knight
The Duel of Fates... Again
November 18th 2023, 6:35 am
"Thank you, Master. You have once again demonstrated that a lightsaber is not the only way to win a fight!"
THON THON THON THON THON THON THON
Just to set the stage of this debate, I want to start with some broad era comparisons between TOTJ and PT, as it is an argument that Xan will inevitably bring up. This section should successfully pre-empt any argument that is reliant on any general PT era hype.
TOTJ Supremacy Quotes:
The Jedi were noted to be at the "peak of their powers" during TOTJ:
The TOTJ Jedi were noted to be "in their prime", particularly "more so than the clone wars".
Note: Both of these quotes are from KOTOR Campaign Guide, but they both apply to TOTJ master. The context of the first quote is regarding Jedi Knights during the Great Sith War (link) and the second quote is in the context of all the Jedi in the campaign guide, which includes TOTJ in its scope (link).
This is supported in Star Wars Galaxy Magazine 8 where there was a comparison between TOTJ and PT where they were both "vibrant and strong" and Veitch states they are both the Jedi "in their prime":
In the opening crawls of the TOTJ comics, it was noted that they were at a period where the Jedi were "numerous and strong"
Which is supported by the Nexus of power sourcebook, which calls TOTJ the "once strong Jedi Order":
This is what the Power of the Jedi sourcebook says about the TOTJ councilors:
--- --- ---
There's honestly a lot more I can bring up, but these should suffice for now. I think the narrative is clear that the Jedi Order in TOTJ was absolutely supposed to be at it's strong point, being incredibly wise in the ways of the force. They're supposed to be an era where the Jedi are at their prime.
PT Supremacy Quotes:
Obviously the same thing can be said about the PT. So my suggestion has always been that we neglect any marginal gap between one Jedi prime era and another. But I want to quickly take down the argument of Lucas supremacy first, which is the most common argument used to justify PT's vast supremacy to other eras.
Firstly, TOTJ was specifically noted to be given free reign of their materials as long as they align with the most basic concepts of the force. Given that LFL don't track power levels as canon (see section 1), there's no indication it is beholden to any Lucas supremacy:
Lucas said to make him a Dark Lord of the Sith; so then I had to ask what a Dark Lord of the Sith is. Tom Veitch and I gave him a two-page questionnaire about what Dark Lords of the Sith can or can't do and Lucas defined all the parameters for us. Gilman: I understand that Lucas, understandably, keeps a pretty tight rein on his properties. How does this impact on what you do? Anderson: He seems to be a fairly flexible with the Tales of the Jedi series, because it's 4,000 to 5,000 years before the movies. Tom Veitch and I have some incredible latitude on what we can do. As long as we remained true to the spirit of the Force and Jedi Knights and other established themes of the Star Wars universe, we could do mostly what we wanted.
It's also noteworthy that it was stated "in his [Lucas'] mind, only the movies exist", so he would be talking about PT supremacy in a relatively move-centric theme. Given that LFL don't track power levels, and TOTJ wasn't beholden to PT supremacy, I see no reason to bind it over TOTJ. The rest of the PT supremacy quotes can be weighed at best as much as TOTJ quotes.
---
Regardless of whether or not you buy this, I question the extent to which an era can scale above another in the first place. Even if we buy Lucas supremacy, how much can the PT be superior to another era called the "Jedi in their prime" or the Jedi "at the summit of their power"? I don't think the gap would be anything meaningful enough for Poof being on the council to provide any meaningful link over Thon.
--- ---
I'll discuss more about Thon's status in the TOTJ order if Xan brings up Poof's standings. Now that the basis of the era comparison is set, we can move on to other more meaningful links.
I'm sure this is pretty common knowledge but I want this on the record in this post so I can callback to it in my later posts.
Thon was compared with Yoda and Nomi Sunrider as "great masters":
"But the great Jedi, the Masters—Yoda and Thon and Nomi Sunrider—they could summon light, could make metal glow so that their puny little friends wouldn't stumble either."
He possesses great skills with the force upon arriving at the praxeum of the Jedi:
He was so powerful as a combatant before even entering the Jedi Order that he TAUGHT powers to the Jedi masters of the assembly:
Interviews with other Jedi Masters have uncovered additional information that has further deepened the mystery surrounding this all-too-silent being. Appar- ently, Thon arrived on Ossus already possessing great skill as a Jedi. He even taught the assembled Masters several unknown powers, increasing their desire to know more about Thon's origins. Thon responded to their questions by saying in his deep, guttural voice, "It is better that you do not know - at least, not yet."
Thon's performance against the pirate gangs on Ambria is incredibly potent. "With the unstoppable power of a storm" he "brings a quick end to the conflict" by "throwing off some kind of force field" and unleash(ing) powerful waves of force energy". He also deflected the pirate's salvo with "a force field that'd stop a sandcrawler (TOTJ Audio Drama)"
This is also reflected in the TOTJ Companion's description of their fight:
Thon's homestead, Bogga's minions engaged Oss and Thon in a fierce battle for the crystals. When Oss fell beneath the onslaught. Thon charged forward. throwing off a powerful field of Force energy that knocked the attackers back. Suddenly afraid of the ability possessed by this unexpected combatant. Bogga and his lackeys retreated and escaped on the Hutt's sail barge back to the Dreadnaught Enforcer One, which remained in orbit during the confrontation.
Sources:
(1,2,3,4)
Thon was noted to have access to every Jedi Powers listed in TOTJ companion as well as many others undiscovered (link). For reference, these are the Jedi powers mentioned in TOTJ companion:
Thon's physical abilities is as potent as it is underrated. It is emphasized in multiple sources. For example, Power of the Jedi calls him one of the most advanced Jedi Masters (link) as well as giving him multiple stat blocks associated with combat:
Jedi Academy Training Manuel notes that he is "devoted to the martial sides" as well as being "respect(ed for) his abilities as a teacher and a warrior"
Hssiss Scaling:
In the Tales of the Jedi comic, Thon was shown killing a Hssiss with a single swipe of his claws:
This is also supported in the comic as combatants like Sylvar, who is by all intents and purposes far below Thon, is shown killing a Hssiss with a single strike (link).
But this is not the basis of this scaling. Thon was implied to have fought hordes of the beast, and won by driving them away from the Ambrian wastes:
To put the nail in the coffin, in TOTJ, it was further implied that Thon fought the Hssiss en masse... and also trapped them in the lake:
--- --- ---
Now that we have established all that, let's talk about the potency of the Hssiss. Not only did a single Hssiss nearly defeat Tionne Solusar, Kreia stated that they can "humble" midgame Exile:
"Hssiss are enough to humble even an arrogant one such as you. Test yourself if you must, but try not to die."
This is supported by the KOTOR prima Guide who also implies that they are too much for midgame Exile (when she went to Korriban) and that she should avoid them:
Thon driving them away from the wastes and locking them in the waters of the lake is an extremely potent feat considering that a few of them is already enough to challenge midgame Exile.
In this section I'll be looking over Poof's feats and statements and pointing out why Thon would be an optimal choice in eliminating him.
Mind trick (1,2,3). As you can see from the scans, Poof prefers to use mind tricks to end conflicts instead of using sabers. This is also the same for illusions:
Illusions: (1,2,3,4).
Per his normal style, he would start this conflict with some illusions or trying to mind trick Thon.
So let's think about how effective these methods will be against a Thon charging who will kill him with sabers or his claws, or repel him with one of his powerful force waves:
Mind Tricks:
I think it is incredibly intuitive as to why mind-tricks wouldn't work on Thon. For one thing, the most prominent description of mind tricks all point to them working ONLY on weak-minded people:
“Padmé gave a helpless little laugh. “Are you going to use one of your Jedi mind tricks on me?”
“They only work on the weak-minded,” Anakin explained. “You are anything but weak-minded.” He ended with an innocent, wide-eyed look that Padmé simply could not resist.”
This fits into the broader narrative from movies like ANH which all emphasize it working exclusively on the weak-minded. There probably are dozens maybe hundreds of more quotes on the matter but this should be enough. I know Xan is a huge believer in movie-supremacy so this should trump other arguments. But just to provide some examples of how hard it is to telepathically dominate a person. Cad Bane resisted the joint efforts of 3 very powerful Jedi masters (link). Countless other examples exist in the EU. Novel Vitiate being unable to dominate Revan despite being able to overpower him with lightning almost instantly (SWTOR: Revan). Wynn Dorvan resisted the telepathic domination of Abeloth (Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse), and Unuthul couldn't mentally dominate DN Jacen despite being capable of forcing Luke to root himself in the force to resist his TK (DN: Swarm Wars).
So would it work on Thon? Well if:
A) NFUs like Padme can resist mind-tricks
B) The gap needed for telepathic domination to take place is absolutely massive
C) Thon is also a master telepathy (being able to read Nomi's thoughts and telepathically communicate with her)
Then I highly doubt he will win this fight through Jedi mind tricks
Illusions:
Now this is trickier as Poof has both good feats and statements on illusions, and it is more combatively applicable than Jedi mind tricks. However it's still unlikely to work. I take your Yarael Poof and raise you Aleema Keto. Aleema's performances in illusions is probably far better than what Poof displayed, showing far better feats (over some vague quotes from IU commentary). Aleema was able to continuously use beast like illusions to drive men mad (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9), as well as using illusions to create capital ships (1,2). She has a lot more illusion feats, like using it to subjugate the Tetan systems. I don't think Poof has shown enough to place himself on her level, nevermind above. Now that we have this established, we have Nomi Sunrider, who is capable of using BM to not only destroy her illusions (link) but also use battle meditation to not only destroy Aleema's illusions but also PROBE HER MIND. Note that this is an Aleema who was AMPED by a meditation chamber (1,2).
So now that we know:
A) Battle Meditation can destroy illusions
B) Battle Meditation can probe the minds of creator of illusions
C) Nomi was capable of doing this to a telepath who is AT LEAST on Poof's level
The same Nomi who after all this came to Thon for additional trainings:
Thon was noted to "excel" at battle meditation and was listed with Nomi and Arca:
And was noted alongside them as "some of the greatest practitioners" of the technique:
Odan urr, the creator of the technique, also notes that he is good at it (despite Arca being better):
He also largely taught the technique to Nomi (who is possibly the greatest user of the technique of all time. So illusions likely wouldn't work either.
Infant of Shaa
I am a strong believer that this feat is far less impressive than it is commonly made out to be. Let's first make sure the foundation is known that the energy release of the Infant of Shaa by itself is not enough (or far from enough) to destroy Coruscant, but instead the fact that it can trigger a chain reaction starting from the planet's core (which is where they planted the bomb):
This balancer is crucial. Now let's look at the feat itself. There is only one quote from Factfiles that states that he actually absorbed the energy of the device:
But this isn't what's shown in the comic:
This is backed by by another OOU quote that states that he merely deactivated the device (this quote is more canonical than factfiles which are written IU):
So this feat is very nebulous at best. If the device exploded, it would cause a chain reaction that eventually destroys a planet. Poof merely bound the energies together and deactivated the device. He didn't contain the energy that exploded (it didn't explode) but even if it did it isn't planetary. Let's compare this to Ambria:
Ambria:
Ambria is one of the most potent portrayal of power in the entirety of Star Wars mythos. The energy contained by Thon has 2 parts (ignoring Hssiss which the comic also implies he contained). The first of which are the Sith spirits that came to the planet:
Notice how the same text also states that Thon "easily repels" these spirits. Now how powerful were the spirits? They were stated as powerful enough to threaten a sector:
The spirits were powerful enough that they "threatened to consume an entire sector". Given the context of the quote:
It was likely a reference to the stenness nodes, which is a "cluster of mining systems". Essentially, Thon managed to "easily repel" and then "trap" dark spirits that "threatened to consume an entire sector". But this is just the first part of the feat.
There is also the remaining dark side energy of the ritual that killed every life on the planet as well as being noted to be the strongest DS release on the Jedi records (which included Naga Sadow's release that destroyed the denarii system, as well as Ku'ar Danar's release that moved planets):
I think both of these release are individually more powerful than the potential chain reaction that the Infant of Shaa can create. One of them threatened to consume a sector while the other scales beyond the DS energy needed to destroy stars and move planets. Now Thon not only bound them with WoL, but also keeps them prisoner with his power (link). But moreover, he also managed to make the planet a LS nexus aside from the lake (where he trapped the spirits):
“ In return, she had witnessed scenes plucked from the planet's history: the Sith sorceress as she was consumed by her failed spell; the Jedi Master's struggle to trap the dark side in Lake Natth.
...
“the Huntress could feel this was a place of power: a nexus for both the light and dark sides of the Force.”
For a more detailed breakdown of the feat, check out my debate with Vaelias (link). I think Ambria is certainly far more impressive than the infant of Shaa, but the more important thing is:
Yarael Poof died
---
Now there are other factors involved in these feats that make them far too nebulous to be used as hard binding scales, but it is a great indicator for Thon. If these feats are brought up they will only cement Thon's supremacy.
THON THON THON THON THON THON THON
And DEFINITELY not this clown who got deleted from the movies:
Thanks for reading. And Vote for THON.
THON THON THON
THON THON THON THON THON THON THON
TOTJ vs PT:
Just to set the stage of this debate, I want to start with some broad era comparisons between TOTJ and PT, as it is an argument that Xan will inevitably bring up. This section should successfully pre-empt any argument that is reliant on any general PT era hype.
TOTJ Supremacy Quotes:
The Jedi were noted to be at the "peak of their powers" during TOTJ:
The TOTJ Jedi were noted to be "in their prime", particularly "more so than the clone wars".
Note: Both of these quotes are from KOTOR Campaign Guide, but they both apply to TOTJ master. The context of the first quote is regarding Jedi Knights during the Great Sith War (link) and the second quote is in the context of all the Jedi in the campaign guide, which includes TOTJ in its scope (link).
This is supported in Star Wars Galaxy Magazine 8 where there was a comparison between TOTJ and PT where they were both "vibrant and strong" and Veitch states they are both the Jedi "in their prime":
In the opening crawls of the TOTJ comics, it was noted that they were at a period where the Jedi were "numerous and strong"
Which is supported by the Nexus of power sourcebook, which calls TOTJ the "once strong Jedi Order":
This is what the Power of the Jedi sourcebook says about the TOTJ councilors:
--- --- ---
There's honestly a lot more I can bring up, but these should suffice for now. I think the narrative is clear that the Jedi Order in TOTJ was absolutely supposed to be at it's strong point, being incredibly wise in the ways of the force. They're supposed to be an era where the Jedi are at their prime.
PT Supremacy Quotes:
Obviously the same thing can be said about the PT. So my suggestion has always been that we neglect any marginal gap between one Jedi prime era and another. But I want to quickly take down the argument of Lucas supremacy first, which is the most common argument used to justify PT's vast supremacy to other eras.
Firstly, TOTJ was specifically noted to be given free reign of their materials as long as they align with the most basic concepts of the force. Given that LFL don't track power levels as canon (see section 1), there's no indication it is beholden to any Lucas supremacy:
Lucas said to make him a Dark Lord of the Sith; so then I had to ask what a Dark Lord of the Sith is. Tom Veitch and I gave him a two-page questionnaire about what Dark Lords of the Sith can or can't do and Lucas defined all the parameters for us. Gilman: I understand that Lucas, understandably, keeps a pretty tight rein on his properties. How does this impact on what you do? Anderson: He seems to be a fairly flexible with the Tales of the Jedi series, because it's 4,000 to 5,000 years before the movies. Tom Veitch and I have some incredible latitude on what we can do. As long as we remained true to the spirit of the Force and Jedi Knights and other established themes of the Star Wars universe, we could do mostly what we wanted.
-Tales of the Jedi Interview, Kevin J Anders
It's also noteworthy that it was stated "in his [Lucas'] mind, only the movies exist", so he would be talking about PT supremacy in a relatively move-centric theme. Given that LFL don't track power levels, and TOTJ wasn't beholden to PT supremacy, I see no reason to bind it over TOTJ. The rest of the PT supremacy quotes can be weighed at best as much as TOTJ quotes.
---
Regardless of whether or not you buy this, I question the extent to which an era can scale above another in the first place. Even if we buy Lucas supremacy, how much can the PT be superior to another era called the "Jedi in their prime" or the Jedi "at the summit of their power"? I don't think the gap would be anything meaningful enough for Poof being on the council to provide any meaningful link over Thon.
--- ---
I'll discuss more about Thon's status in the TOTJ order if Xan brings up Poof's standings. Now that the basis of the era comparison is set, we can move on to other more meaningful links.
Thon's potency:
I'm sure this is pretty common knowledge but I want this on the record in this post so I can callback to it in my later posts.
Power:
Thon was compared with Yoda and Nomi Sunrider as "great masters":
"But the great Jedi, the Masters—Yoda and Thon and Nomi Sunrider—they could summon light, could make metal glow so that their puny little friends wouldn't stumble either."
-- Planet Of Twilight
He possesses great skills with the force upon arriving at the praxeum of the Jedi:
He was so powerful as a combatant before even entering the Jedi Order that he TAUGHT powers to the Jedi masters of the assembly:
Interviews with other Jedi Masters have uncovered additional information that has further deepened the mystery surrounding this all-too-silent being. Appar- ently, Thon arrived on Ossus already possessing great skill as a Jedi. He even taught the assembled Masters several unknown powers, increasing their desire to know more about Thon's origins. Thon responded to their questions by saying in his deep, guttural voice, "It is better that you do not know - at least, not yet."
TOTJ Companion
Thon's performance against the pirate gangs on Ambria is incredibly potent. "With the unstoppable power of a storm" he "brings a quick end to the conflict" by "throwing off some kind of force field" and unleash(ing) powerful waves of force energy". He also deflected the pirate's salvo with "a force field that'd stop a sandcrawler (TOTJ Audio Drama)"
This is also reflected in the TOTJ Companion's description of their fight:
Thon's homestead, Bogga's minions engaged Oss and Thon in a fierce battle for the crystals. When Oss fell beneath the onslaught. Thon charged forward. throwing off a powerful field of Force energy that knocked the attackers back. Suddenly afraid of the ability possessed by this unexpected combatant. Bogga and his lackeys retreated and escaped on the Hutt's sail barge back to the Dreadnaught Enforcer One, which remained in orbit during the confrontation.
TOTJ Companion
Sources:
(1,2,3,4)
Thon was noted to have access to every Jedi Powers listed in TOTJ companion as well as many others undiscovered (link). For reference, these are the Jedi powers mentioned in TOTJ companion:
Physical Combat:
Thon's physical abilities is as potent as it is underrated. It is emphasized in multiple sources. For example, Power of the Jedi calls him one of the most advanced Jedi Masters (link) as well as giving him multiple stat blocks associated with combat:
Jedi Academy Training Manuel notes that he is "devoted to the martial sides" as well as being "respect(ed for) his abilities as a teacher and a warrior"
Hssiss Scaling:
In the Tales of the Jedi comic, Thon was shown killing a Hssiss with a single swipe of his claws:
This is also supported in the comic as combatants like Sylvar, who is by all intents and purposes far below Thon, is shown killing a Hssiss with a single strike (link).
But this is not the basis of this scaling. Thon was implied to have fought hordes of the beast, and won by driving them away from the Ambrian wastes:
To put the nail in the coffin, in TOTJ, it was further implied that Thon fought the Hssiss en masse... and also trapped them in the lake:
--- --- ---
Now that we have established all that, let's talk about the potency of the Hssiss. Not only did a single Hssiss nearly defeat Tionne Solusar, Kreia stated that they can "humble" midgame Exile:
"Hssiss are enough to humble even an arrogant one such as you. Test yourself if you must, but try not to die."
―Kreia, to Meetra Surik, KOTOR 2
This is supported by the KOTOR prima Guide who also implies that they are too much for midgame Exile (when she went to Korriban) and that she should avoid them:
Thon driving them away from the wastes and locking them in the waters of the lake is an extremely potent feat considering that a few of them is already enough to challenge midgame Exile.
Thon vs Yarael Poof Analysis:
In this section I'll be looking over Poof's feats and statements and pointing out why Thon would be an optimal choice in eliminating him.
Yarael Poof's Modus Operandi:
Let's stand this by emphasizing Poof's normal style. It is repeatedly stated in several sources that he strongly prefers using illusions and mind tricks at the start of a fight instead of going into any forms of a duel:Mind trick (1,2,3). As you can see from the scans, Poof prefers to use mind tricks to end conflicts instead of using sabers. This is also the same for illusions:
Illusions: (1,2,3,4).
Per his normal style, he would start this conflict with some illusions or trying to mind trick Thon.
So let's think about how effective these methods will be against a Thon charging who will kill him with sabers or his claws, or repel him with one of his powerful force waves:
Mind Tricks:
I think it is incredibly intuitive as to why mind-tricks wouldn't work on Thon. For one thing, the most prominent description of mind tricks all point to them working ONLY on weak-minded people:
“Padmé gave a helpless little laugh. “Are you going to use one of your Jedi mind tricks on me?”
“They only work on the weak-minded,” Anakin explained. “You are anything but weak-minded.” He ended with an innocent, wide-eyed look that Padmé simply could not resist.”
Attack of the Clones Novelization
This fits into the broader narrative from movies like ANH which all emphasize it working exclusively on the weak-minded. There probably are dozens maybe hundreds of more quotes on the matter but this should be enough. I know Xan is a huge believer in movie-supremacy so this should trump other arguments. But just to provide some examples of how hard it is to telepathically dominate a person. Cad Bane resisted the joint efforts of 3 very powerful Jedi masters (link). Countless other examples exist in the EU. Novel Vitiate being unable to dominate Revan despite being able to overpower him with lightning almost instantly (SWTOR: Revan). Wynn Dorvan resisted the telepathic domination of Abeloth (Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse), and Unuthul couldn't mentally dominate DN Jacen despite being capable of forcing Luke to root himself in the force to resist his TK (DN: Swarm Wars).
So would it work on Thon? Well if:
A) NFUs like Padme can resist mind-tricks
B) The gap needed for telepathic domination to take place is absolutely massive
C) Thon is also a master telepathy (being able to read Nomi's thoughts and telepathically communicate with her)
Then I highly doubt he will win this fight through Jedi mind tricks
Illusions:
Now this is trickier as Poof has both good feats and statements on illusions, and it is more combatively applicable than Jedi mind tricks. However it's still unlikely to work. I take your Yarael Poof and raise you Aleema Keto. Aleema's performances in illusions is probably far better than what Poof displayed, showing far better feats (over some vague quotes from IU commentary). Aleema was able to continuously use beast like illusions to drive men mad (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9), as well as using illusions to create capital ships (1,2). She has a lot more illusion feats, like using it to subjugate the Tetan systems. I don't think Poof has shown enough to place himself on her level, nevermind above. Now that we have this established, we have Nomi Sunrider, who is capable of using BM to not only destroy her illusions (link) but also use battle meditation to not only destroy Aleema's illusions but also PROBE HER MIND. Note that this is an Aleema who was AMPED by a meditation chamber (1,2).
So now that we know:
A) Battle Meditation can destroy illusions
B) Battle Meditation can probe the minds of creator of illusions
C) Nomi was capable of doing this to a telepath who is AT LEAST on Poof's level
The same Nomi who after all this came to Thon for additional trainings:
Thon was noted to "excel" at battle meditation and was listed with Nomi and Arca:
And was noted alongside them as "some of the greatest practitioners" of the technique:
Odan urr, the creator of the technique, also notes that he is good at it (despite Arca being better):
He also largely taught the technique to Nomi (who is possibly the greatest user of the technique of all time. So illusions likely wouldn't work either.
Ambria vs Infant of Shaa:
I saved the Elephant in the room for last. The 2 most infamous feats of both characters. It would be a crime if they are not analyzed.Infant of Shaa
I am a strong believer that this feat is far less impressive than it is commonly made out to be. Let's first make sure the foundation is known that the energy release of the Infant of Shaa by itself is not enough (or far from enough) to destroy Coruscant, but instead the fact that it can trigger a chain reaction starting from the planet's core (which is where they planted the bomb):
This balancer is crucial. Now let's look at the feat itself. There is only one quote from Factfiles that states that he actually absorbed the energy of the device:
But this isn't what's shown in the comic:
This is backed by by another OOU quote that states that he merely deactivated the device (this quote is more canonical than factfiles which are written IU):
So this feat is very nebulous at best. If the device exploded, it would cause a chain reaction that eventually destroys a planet. Poof merely bound the energies together and deactivated the device. He didn't contain the energy that exploded (it didn't explode) but even if it did it isn't planetary. Let's compare this to Ambria:
Ambria:
Ambria is one of the most potent portrayal of power in the entirety of Star Wars mythos. The energy contained by Thon has 2 parts (ignoring Hssiss which the comic also implies he contained). The first of which are the Sith spirits that came to the planet:
Notice how the same text also states that Thon "easily repels" these spirits. Now how powerful were the spirits? They were stated as powerful enough to threaten a sector:
The spirits were powerful enough that they "threatened to consume an entire sector". Given the context of the quote:
It was likely a reference to the stenness nodes, which is a "cluster of mining systems". Essentially, Thon managed to "easily repel" and then "trap" dark spirits that "threatened to consume an entire sector". But this is just the first part of the feat.
There is also the remaining dark side energy of the ritual that killed every life on the planet as well as being noted to be the strongest DS release on the Jedi records (which included Naga Sadow's release that destroyed the denarii system, as well as Ku'ar Danar's release that moved planets):
I think both of these release are individually more powerful than the potential chain reaction that the Infant of Shaa can create. One of them threatened to consume a sector while the other scales beyond the DS energy needed to destroy stars and move planets. Now Thon not only bound them with WoL, but also keeps them prisoner with his power (link). But moreover, he also managed to make the planet a LS nexus aside from the lake (where he trapped the spirits):
“ In return, she had witnessed scenes plucked from the planet's history: the Sith sorceress as she was consumed by her failed spell; the Jedi Master's struggle to trap the dark side in Lake Natth.
...
“the Huntress could feel this was a place of power: a nexus for both the light and dark sides of the Force.”
Source: Darth Bane PoD
For a more detailed breakdown of the feat, check out my debate with Vaelias (link). I think Ambria is certainly far more impressive than the infant of Shaa, but the more important thing is:
Yarael Poof died
---
Now there are other factors involved in these feats that make them far too nebulous to be used as hard binding scales, but it is a great indicator for Thon. If these feats are brought up they will only cement Thon's supremacy.
Conclusion:
Honestly the post is short and concise enough for it to not warrant a TLDR. The winner of this fight should clearly be:THON THON THON THON THON THON THON
And DEFINITELY not this clown who got deleted from the movies:
Thanks for reading. And Vote for THON.
THON THON THON
Nute_ChethrayModerator
Re: SS - Arena of the Unknowns: Thon (Darthor) vs Yarael Poof (XannotZan)
November 19th 2023, 1:33 pm
THONTHONTHONTHON
AncientPowerSuspect Hero | Level Four
Re: SS - Arena of the Unknowns: Thon (Darthor) vs Yarael Poof (XannotZan)
November 19th 2023, 8:24 pm
Nute_Chethray wrote:THONTHONTHONTHON
Ziuu
Re: SS - Arena of the Unknowns: Thon (Darthor) vs Yarael Poof (XannotZan)
November 21st 2023, 10:05 pm
I love THON <3
hellothere5432
Re: SS - Arena of the Unknowns: Thon (Darthor) vs Yarael Poof (XannotZan)
November 22nd 2023, 3:48 am
THON
- XanNotZan
Re: SS - Arena of the Unknowns: Thon (Darthor) vs Yarael Poof (XannotZan)
December 2nd 2023, 11:58 pm
On Supremacy
I'd like to start by first addressing this one sentence. TotJ was obviously not beholden to PT supremacy when it was written; the PT didn't even exist back then. It is entirely pointless to invoke the Kevin J. Anders quote to say TotJ isn't bound by PT supremacy quotes. LFL not tracking power levels means no Star Wars content is inherently beholden to any power level quotes or statements, which is exactly why we have CC to act as the arbiter of what is most likely to be the truth in Star Wars. Presumably, you endorse CC as a valid methodology, seeing as you cite it in your post. That being said, let's look Darthor's quote in context.
CC is specifically designed to overcome the problem of LFL not tracking power levels, and it doesn't do so by automatically assigning equal weight to quotes LFL doesn't track, which would again be any and all power level quotes. Such a methodology would have non-movie centric cereal box quotes weighed equally with Lucas quotes, which is not at all how LFL weighs Lucas' opinion. CC details the 5 key considerations of LFL's decision making process with respect to canonicity: Recency, Frequency, Visibility, Coolness, and Officiality.
Recency: The entire point of the recency consideration is to say that old quotes don't bind new material. The Star Wars Galaxy Magazine 8 quote, released in 1996, wouldn't have much, if any, authority over the PT. You can see how this would work the other way, in the PT's favor. The KOTOR campaign guide is admittedly more recent than the final move of the PT, but it falls to G-canon for other considerations.
Frequency: I don't know if Darthor wants to go scan for scan and compare the sheer number of quotes? Regardless, it is quite difficult for me to imagine that there are more sources affirming TotJ supremacy than PT supremacy.
Visibility: The movies are obviously more visible than TotJ. It should follow that movie quotes are more visible than TotJ quotes. The number of people willing to take the time and do the research to find these quotes should scale up with the number of fans for that particular media. Furthermore, people who are fans of TotJ are very likely fans of the PT, meaning the average TotJ fan who invests time into looking for these supremacy quotes has likely also spent time looking for PT supremacy quotes.
Coolness: Coolness is quite subjective, so we'll leave it at that. However, I can think of potential ways to exploit this pillar, and I reserve the right to bring them up later, should I feel like it.
Officiality: The final nail in the coffin for TotJ supremacy, the very thing that makes G-canon, G-canon. Even if TotJ was given largely free reign, LFL would still not weigh Veitch's opinion on Star Wars the same as Lucas'. Veitch's opinion might (and honestly, I'm only saying "might" to throw Veitch a bone here) be considered more on topics relevant to his works, but this doesn't extend to other pieces of Star Wars media or other topics, and certainly not the ones involving Lucas' work. Its true that in Lucas' head, he is only speaking to his movies and his Star Wars, but the point of G-canons existence in the EU is to give Lucas' words and ideas supreme authority over others, because it is his work that forms the bedrock of the EU. PT supremacy quotes pass the three considerations Chee lays out here, meaning the general claim of "things that come from the films and from George usually take a higher priority than other sources" holds in this case. This applies to both Veitch's word and the material in the KOTOR campaign guide.
There are an additional three principles that comprise the consideration temple of LFL fact. However, all I had set out to do in the above section was to establish that my opponent's method of weighing is not at all aligned with what CC proposes, which is derived from LFL's own considerations. Unless Darthor somehow thinks that the additional three principles weigh in his favor, PT supremacy being "weighed at best as much as TOTJ quotes" does not stand.
The best of the best era would be above the best of a lesser era. Consider that the PT Jedi are explicitly the product of a Jedi order geared toward war and combat (per the RotS novel, quote can be provided if needed), whereas TotJ Jedi are more like OT Jedi and geared toward passiveness and knowledge (out of necessity, since TotJ Jedi could only have been modeled after the OT philosophy). Of course, this does not mean TotJ can't have great fighters, but you would expect a warrior to fight better than a monk.
On Yarael Poof
Mind Tricks
Darthor makes a mistake in attempting to detach mind tricks from illusions — they are of the same ability, affect mind.
Indeed, Poof is explicitly stated to be capable of using mind tricks/affect mind on his “fellow Jedi” and colleagues. As Poof was a council member, these fellow Jedi likely refer to other council members, and at the very least, other Jedi masters. Taken literally, Poof should be able to make himself invisible to the likes of Yoda. At the very least, this is evidence that Poof’s abilities do work on force users. Furthermore, the abilities attributed to Poof (invisibility and illusions) vastly outstrip the level of Jedi mind tricks shown in the movie. I find it plausible that the consummate master of this ability, who has spent his entire life perfecting it, would not be limited by the shortcomings of lesser practitioners. So with respect to Darthor’s point here,
…, I see no reason why “weak-minded” couldn’t be gauged relative to the caster of the mind trick or the potency of it. It seems only natural that the applicable range of an ability would increase with the skill of the practitioner.
Affect mind‘s potency doesn’t necessarily scale with the raw power more than skill. Yarael Poof is a powerful Jedi (1, 2), but it is largely his standing as the “consummate master” of affect mind that sets him apart. Consummate refers to skill and training, which are reflected by Obi-Wan’s title as the consummate hero (despite being less powerful than Yoda or Anakin) and Dooku’s title as a consummate duelist (again despite being less powerful than Yoda or Anakin).
Yarael Poof is also straight up better than Mace when it comes to "mental abilities", and Mace says Poof has greater wisdom in this area, implying this related to experience, knowledge, and practice more than it is power.
- Star Wars: Zam Wesell
Affect mind is further noted to be a power that bridges the three central skills of Jedi force powers: Control, Sense, and Alter.
Note that this has massive implications for Yarael Poof. Poof is the consummate master of the power that bridges all areas, meaning his proficiency with each skillset ought to be extremely high. And since these skillsets from the basis of force powers, Poof ought to generally be extremely skilled. Indeed, Poof is capable of healing himself from a stab to (or at least next to) one of his brains (many thanks to Ghost of Grievous for providing these scans in his Yarael Poof RT).
- Galactic Files
- Star Wars: Zam Wesell
- Fact File 106
And note that Yarael Poof would obviously be weakened in such a state, and can still heal himself from a fatal injury. Even Zam Wesell knows this to be true.
- Star Wars: Zam Wesell
Ironic. He could save others from death, but not himself.
Moreover, Poof is incredibly talented in a power he doesn't even specialize in, and one that is explicitly rare.
And to tie it all together, Force healing is listed as one of the powers that Control, Sense, and Alter form the basis of.
- Jedi vs Sith: Essential Guide to the Force
Poof is predominantly wanked for his skill, and his force healing are further evidence of that. We should conclude that it is Poof's skill and mastery that give him supremacy in affect mind where more powerful Jedi (Mace) falter. As such, the comparisons of power that Darthor invokes aren't very relevant, leaving it very plausible that affect mind's potency scales up with skill more so than power.
On point C, the Essential Guide to the Force makes a clear distinction between telepathic powers and affect mind (see above list of Force powers). Darthor does not explain how the telepathic abilities could negate attempts at mind tricks. I somewhat doubt that Saesee Tiin, a member of the B-team and notably a telepath, could negate Poof's mind tricks.
Illusions
:ValkTweak:
I take your Aleema Keto and raise you... NAGA SADOW!!!!!
Naga Sadow's illusions are literally taking on the Jedi Order. And Poof is put > Naga Sadow in the very same book (see above). That is further proof that affect mind works on Force Users, btw. Importantly, I am extremely dubious of any claim that would attempt to put Aleema Keto above a Dark Lord of the Sith. Note that the very scan Darthor provides says Keto's illusions are "little help". Contrary to this, Sadow's illusions are the deciding factor in the battle between the Sith and the Jedi Order.
Since the connection for Thon being able to delete illusions stems from Nomi > Keto >= Poof, and I have elaborated why Keto >= Poof is nonsensical, Darthor has provided no reason to believe that Thon could overcome the illusions of someone as skilled and developed as MASTER YARAEL POOF!!!!! Illusions are also not the only powers of affect mind; how does Thon stop Poof from becoming invisible (note that Nomi only dispelled visible illusions), or blinding him (affect mind can block the senses), or obliterating Thon's memories. There is little doubt in my mind that Poof's abilities would work on the likes of Thon. In fact, there is no precedent for Poof's illusions to ever fail, unlike Naga Sadow and Aleema Keto. What we DO know is that Poof can use his abilities on his fellow Jedi and colleagues (again, more than likely this includes fellow council members), that he is > Naga Sadow who can make his forces appear "innumerable" to take on the Jedi Order, and that he is the consummate master of the ability that bridges the three aspects of force powers.
On The Infant and Ambria
I don't have anything to say on Darthor's section here. Not only do I agree that the Infant of Shaa feat is very vague, it also just isn't how Poof would go about fighting Thon. He would rely on his affect mind abilities, which I have already established to not be something that requires greater power, only greater skill. The comparison here isn't relevant to the argument I'm leaning on.
Conclusion
If Darthor doesn't need to provide a conclusion, neither do I.
Thon dies.
Darthor wrote:Given that LFL don't track power levels, and TOTJ wasn't beholden to PT supremacy, I see no reason to bind it over TOTJ.
I'd like to start by first addressing this one sentence. TotJ was obviously not beholden to PT supremacy when it was written; the PT didn't even exist back then. It is entirely pointless to invoke the Kevin J. Anders quote to say TotJ isn't bound by PT supremacy quotes. LFL not tracking power levels means no Star Wars content is inherently beholden to any power level quotes or statements, which is exactly why we have CC to act as the arbiter of what is most likely to be the truth in Star Wars. Presumably, you endorse CC as a valid methodology, seeing as you cite it in your post. That being said, let's look Darthor's quote in context.
Darthor wrote:It's also noteworthy that it was stated "in his [Lucas'] mind, only the movies exist", so he would be talking about PT supremacy in a relatively move-centric theme. Given that LFL don't track power levels, and TOTJ wasn't beholden to PT supremacy, I see no reason to bind it over TOTJ. The rest of the PT supremacy quotes can be weighed at best as much as TOTJ quotes.
CC is specifically designed to overcome the problem of LFL not tracking power levels, and it doesn't do so by automatically assigning equal weight to quotes LFL doesn't track, which would again be any and all power level quotes. Such a methodology would have non-movie centric cereal box quotes weighed equally with Lucas quotes, which is not at all how LFL weighs Lucas' opinion. CC details the 5 key considerations of LFL's decision making process with respect to canonicity: Recency, Frequency, Visibility, Coolness, and Officiality.
Recency: The entire point of the recency consideration is to say that old quotes don't bind new material. The Star Wars Galaxy Magazine 8 quote, released in 1996, wouldn't have much, if any, authority over the PT. You can see how this would work the other way, in the PT's favor. The KOTOR campaign guide is admittedly more recent than the final move of the PT, but it falls to G-canon for other considerations.
Frequency: I don't know if Darthor wants to go scan for scan and compare the sheer number of quotes? Regardless, it is quite difficult for me to imagine that there are more sources affirming TotJ supremacy than PT supremacy.
Visibility: The movies are obviously more visible than TotJ. It should follow that movie quotes are more visible than TotJ quotes. The number of people willing to take the time and do the research to find these quotes should scale up with the number of fans for that particular media. Furthermore, people who are fans of TotJ are very likely fans of the PT, meaning the average TotJ fan who invests time into looking for these supremacy quotes has likely also spent time looking for PT supremacy quotes.
Coolness: Coolness is quite subjective, so we'll leave it at that. However, I can think of potential ways to exploit this pillar, and I reserve the right to bring them up later, should I feel like it.
Officiality: The final nail in the coffin for TotJ supremacy, the very thing that makes G-canon, G-canon. Even if TotJ was given largely free reign, LFL would still not weigh Veitch's opinion on Star Wars the same as Lucas'. Veitch's opinion might (and honestly, I'm only saying "might" to throw Veitch a bone here) be considered more on topics relevant to his works, but this doesn't extend to other pieces of Star Wars media or other topics, and certainly not the ones involving Lucas' work. Its true that in Lucas' head, he is only speaking to his movies and his Star Wars, but the point of G-canons existence in the EU is to give Lucas' words and ideas supreme authority over others, because it is his work that forms the bedrock of the EU. PT supremacy quotes pass the three considerations Chee lays out here, meaning the general claim of "things that come from the films and from George usually take a higher priority than other sources" holds in this case. This applies to both Veitch's word and the material in the KOTOR campaign guide.
There are an additional three principles that comprise the consideration temple of LFL fact. However, all I had set out to do in the above section was to establish that my opponent's method of weighing is not at all aligned with what CC proposes, which is derived from LFL's own considerations. Unless Darthor somehow thinks that the additional three principles weigh in his favor, PT supremacy being "weighed at best as much as TOTJ quotes" does not stand.
Darthor wrote:Regardless of whether or not you buy this, I question the extent to which an era can scale above another in the first place. Even if we buy Lucas supremacy, how much can the PT be superior to another era called the "Jedi in their prime" or the Jedi "at the summit of their power"? I don't think the gap would be anything meaningful enough for Poof being on the council to provide any meaningful link over Thon.
The best of the best era would be above the best of a lesser era. Consider that the PT Jedi are explicitly the product of a Jedi order geared toward war and combat (per the RotS novel, quote can be provided if needed), whereas TotJ Jedi are more like OT Jedi and geared toward passiveness and knowledge (out of necessity, since TotJ Jedi could only have been modeled after the OT philosophy). Of course, this does not mean TotJ can't have great fighters, but you would expect a warrior to fight better than a monk.
On Yarael Poof
Mind Tricks
Darthor makes a mistake in attempting to detach mind tricks from illusions — they are of the same ability, affect mind.
Jedi vs Sith: Essential Guide to the Force wrote:Essentially, this power -- referred to by Jedi as affect mind and alter mind, but popularly known as Jedi mind tricks -- utilizes a combination of receptive empathy, projective empathy, and hypnosis. Jedi mind tricks can stop the understanding of what’s really happening by blocking the senses, and can also obliterate memories altogether or even replace them with false ones… The Jedi Master Yarael Poof was a consummate illusionist, reportedly capable of making himself invisible to fellow Jedi. He was also able to quickly determine an opponent’s fears through the use of the Force, and could create illusions that were perceived by entire armies. In several instances, his projected mind tricks prompted quick ends to battles.
Indeed, Poof is explicitly stated to be capable of using mind tricks/affect mind on his “fellow Jedi” and colleagues. As Poof was a council member, these fellow Jedi likely refer to other council members, and at the very least, other Jedi masters. Taken literally, Poof should be able to make himself invisible to the likes of Yoda. At the very least, this is evidence that Poof’s abilities do work on force users. Furthermore, the abilities attributed to Poof (invisibility and illusions) vastly outstrip the level of Jedi mind tricks shown in the movie. I find it plausible that the consummate master of this ability, who has spent his entire life perfecting it, would not be limited by the shortcomings of lesser practitioners. So with respect to Darthor’s point here,
Darthor wrote:This fits into the broader narrative from movies like ANH which all emphasize it working exclusively on the weak-minded. There probably are dozens maybe hundreds of more quotes on the matter but this should be enough. I know Xan is a huge believer in movie-supremacy so this should trump other arguments.
…, I see no reason why “weak-minded” couldn’t be gauged relative to the caster of the mind trick or the potency of it. It seems only natural that the applicable range of an ability would increase with the skill of the practitioner.
Darthor wrote:But just to provide some examples of how hard it is to telepathically dominate a person. Cad Bane resisted the joint efforts of 3 very powerful Jedi masters (link). Countless other examples exist in the EU. Novel Vitiate being unable to dominate Revan despite being able to overpower him with lightning almost instantly (SWTOR: Revan). Wynn Dorvan resisted the telepathic domination of Abeloth (Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse), and Unuthul couldn't mentally dominate DN Jacen despite being capable of forcing Luke to root himself in the force to resist his TK (DN: Swarm Wars).
Affect mind‘s potency doesn’t necessarily scale with the raw power more than skill. Yarael Poof is a powerful Jedi (1, 2), but it is largely his standing as the “consummate master” of affect mind that sets him apart. Consummate refers to skill and training, which are reflected by Obi-Wan’s title as the consummate hero (despite being less powerful than Yoda or Anakin) and Dooku’s title as a consummate duelist (again despite being less powerful than Yoda or Anakin).
Star Wars SAGA Series #27: Count Dooku, Dark Lord wrote:Count Dooku is a disillusioned former Jedi Knight who lost faith in the Republic and abandoned the Jedi Order. Dooku spent ten years in seclusion honing his Force abilities - and - as a master of the old style of fencing - wields his scimitar-handled lightsaber with consummate grace.
Labyrinth of Evil wrote:It must have been difficult for him to have served under a methodical master such as Dooku, consummate planner, consummate duelist.
Justin Lambros wrote:Obi-Wan, on the other hand, is the consummate hero. It's his speed, precision, and unshakeable focus that allow him to handle challenges that Jedi more powerful than him could never face.
Yarael Poof is also straight up better than Mace when it comes to "mental abilities", and Mace says Poof has greater wisdom in this area, implying this related to experience, knowledge, and practice more than it is power.
- Star Wars: Zam Wesell
Affect mind is further noted to be a power that bridges the three central skills of Jedi force powers: Control, Sense, and Alter.
Jedi vs Sith: Essential Guide to the Force wrote:The Jedi regard their skills as rooted in three areas: Control, Sense, and Alter.
Jedi vs Sith: Essential Guide to the Force wrote:The power known as Alter Mind bridges all these skill areas. Through it a Jedi can project her perception of reality into the mind of another, or an illusion or conclusion that she needs the other to hold as true. This is a most magnificent and useful power, but it is also one fraught with danger.
Note that this has massive implications for Yarael Poof. Poof is the consummate master of the power that bridges all areas, meaning his proficiency with each skillset ought to be extremely high. And since these skillsets from the basis of force powers, Poof ought to generally be extremely skilled. Indeed, Poof is capable of healing himself from a stab to (or at least next to) one of his brains (many thanks to Ghost of Grievous for providing these scans in his Yarael Poof RT).
- Galactic Files
- Star Wars: Zam Wesell
- Fact File 106
And note that Yarael Poof would obviously be weakened in such a state, and can still heal himself from a fatal injury. Even Zam Wesell knows this to be true.
- Star Wars: Zam Wesell
Ironic. He could save others from death, but not himself.
Moreover, Poof is incredibly talented in a power he doesn't even specialize in, and one that is explicitly rare. Jedi vs Sith: Essential Guide to the Force wrote:As with other Force powers, some Jedi have a natural ability as healers; such Jedi have never been common, and their kindred guard them carefully.
And to tie it all together, Force healing is listed as one of the powers that Control, Sense, and Alter form the basis of.
- Jedi vs Sith: Essential Guide to the Force
Poof is predominantly wanked for his skill, and his force healing are further evidence of that. We should conclude that it is Poof's skill and mastery that give him supremacy in affect mind where more powerful Jedi (Mace) falter. As such, the comparisons of power that Darthor invokes aren't very relevant, leaving it very plausible that affect mind's potency scales up with skill more so than power.
Darthor wrote:So would it work on Thon? Well if:
A) NFUs like Padme can resist mind-tricks
B) The gap needed for telepathic domination to take place is absolutely massive
C) Thon is also a master telepathy (being able to read Nomi's thoughts and telepathically communicate with her)
On point C, the Essential Guide to the Force makes a clear distinction between telepathic powers and affect mind (see above list of Force powers). Darthor does not explain how the telepathic abilities could negate attempts at mind tricks. I somewhat doubt that Saesee Tiin, a member of the B-team and notably a telepath, could negate Poof's mind tricks.
Illusions
Darthor wrote:I take your Yarael Poof and raise you Aleema Keto.
:ValkTweak:
I take your Aleema Keto and raise you... NAGA SADOW!!!!!
Jedi vs Sith: Essential Guide to the Force wrote:After much blood had been spilled, we realized that our enemy had been using illusions conjured by Naga Sadow to make themselves appear innumerable, which they were not. The battle turned in our favor, and the Sith retreated whence they came.
Naga Sadow's illusions are literally taking on the Jedi Order. And Poof is put > Naga Sadow in the very same book (see above). That is further proof that affect mind works on Force Users, btw. Importantly, I am extremely dubious of any claim that would attempt to put Aleema Keto above a Dark Lord of the Sith. Note that the very scan Darthor provides says Keto's illusions are "little help". Contrary to this, Sadow's illusions are the deciding factor in the battle between the Sith and the Jedi Order.
Darthor wrote:So now that we know:
A) Battle Meditation can destroy illusions
B) Battle Meditation can probe the minds of creator of illusions
C) Nomi was capable of doing this to a telepath who is AT LEAST on Poof's level
Since the connection for Thon being able to delete illusions stems from Nomi > Keto >= Poof, and I have elaborated why Keto >= Poof is nonsensical, Darthor has provided no reason to believe that Thon could overcome the illusions of someone as skilled and developed as MASTER YARAEL POOF!!!!! Illusions are also not the only powers of affect mind; how does Thon stop Poof from becoming invisible (note that Nomi only dispelled visible illusions), or blinding him (affect mind can block the senses), or obliterating Thon's memories. There is little doubt in my mind that Poof's abilities would work on the likes of Thon. In fact, there is no precedent for Poof's illusions to ever fail, unlike Naga Sadow and Aleema Keto. What we DO know is that Poof can use his abilities on his fellow Jedi and colleagues (again, more than likely this includes fellow council members), that he is > Naga Sadow who can make his forces appear "innumerable" to take on the Jedi Order, and that he is the consummate master of the ability that bridges the three aspects of force powers.
On The Infant and Ambria
I don't have anything to say on Darthor's section here. Not only do I agree that the Infant of Shaa feat is very vague, it also just isn't how Poof would go about fighting Thon. He would rely on his affect mind abilities, which I have already established to not be something that requires greater power, only greater skill. The comparison here isn't relevant to the argument I'm leaning on.
Conclusion
If Darthor doesn't need to provide a conclusion, neither do I.
Thon dies.
- The Prodigal Knight
Part 1
December 17th 2023, 8:59 am
"But the great Jedi, the Masters—Yoda and Thon and Nomi Sunrider—they could summon light, could make metal glow so that their puny little friends wouldn't stumble either."
THON THON THON THON THON THON THON
Before I start actually dealing with the points from Xan, I noticed that he really loves to use intuition pumps as substantiation for points. Poof can INTUITIVELY TP Tiin, warriors are INTUITIVELY beyond monks in fight. So I'll return an intuition pump of my own. Do you really think in good faith that if Thon is in the PT, he would be anything below a councilor? Somebody who is stressed as a legendary wise master who is compared with Yoda, and is centuries years old and has access to every Jedi power on top of being a weapon master, would be a random master or a knight in the PT order?
CC Optimization:
I agree, TOTJ is indeed not beholden to any power level quotes stating PT supremacy.
That's not quite my methodology though? My proposal is that we neglect any marginal era gaps and focus on the characters instead, considering that neither era is notably weaker than the other. But let's just go through your CC optimization argument anyways:
A) Recency:
Concession Accepted
I'm glad you agree that my take is backed up by various more recent sources as well. Your cherrypicking of one of my sources notwithstanding. Notably, I think Galaxy Magazine 8's quote is incredibly important at showing that the narrative intent of TOTJ and PT are similar insofar as they're trying to showcase the Jedi knights in their prime.
This doesn't engage with recency at all. You're using other considerations (in this case Officiality) to argue for PT having more recency. PT having more official quotes doesn't mean they're more recent.
Until then, TOTJ has a point.
B): Frequency:
Perhaps PT does have an advantage here due to increased exposure compared to TOTJ, but relative to the number of sources that covers TOTJ I'd actually say TOTJ has an advantage.
C) Visibility:
You're asserting that the movies support your takes at all. Provide proof directly from the movies, either dialogue or a scene, that directly affirms PT supremacy? Until then:
Baseless Bullshit Counter: 1
Moreover, the vast majority of PT supremacy quotes typically thrown around are obscure Lucas interviews with like 200 views, or articles in the depth of SW.com archives. I would challenge that the literal opening crawl of TOTJ and mainline sourcebooks like POTJ and KOTOR Campaign Guide are more visible.
Another point to TOTJ
D) Coolness
Agreed
E) Officiality:
I am wiling to agree that PT does align more with "more official" comments since it is closer to the movies, however I would counter-assert that the Officiality of Lucas is DERIVED from the idea that the rest of the EU is beholden to him in the first place. Given you conceded that TOTJ isn't, it definitely murky the water of whether or not this is all that binding.
I'm willing to be charitable and give you part of this point though.
---
So what did we establish? Xan conceded that my take is supported by more recent sources. TOTJ's quotes are far more visible than obscure interviews online, and TOTJ is arguably more frequent relative to the number of sources that discusses it.
And honestly my methodology makes more sense. Authors clearly doesn't decide which character is more powerful based on their era. If we have two eras, neither are noticeably weak, it would make a lot of sense for us to discuss the characters themselves.
Notice also that Poof being in a stronger era is not indicative of his superiority to Thon in any way shape or form.
I am seriously confused as to what you seek to prove with this argument. Thon's aesthetics as a character is a legendary wise and powerful Jedi master who was literally compared with Yoda in power:
"But the great Jedi, the Masters—Yoda and Thon and Nomi Sunrider—they could summon light, could make metal glow so that their puny little friends wouldn't stumble either."
--- --- ---
Combat Optimization:
That quote from ROTS is in reference to the Jedi heroes during The Clone Wars. In fact, the entire PASSAGE is referencing the Jedi's clash with the separatists. This does NOT apply to Yarael Poof who died before the Clone Wars occurred. The fact that he lived in PT doesn't mean he benefits from the wank of the Jedi during TCW (who experienced war growth). Passage in question:
Examples of Jedi Order growing massively thru wars and conflicts are frequent thru-out Star Wars. Like KOTOR (link) or NJO (link). In fact, the Vong war made NJO Jedi more powerful than they ever dreamed possible:
How were the Jedi changed by the war? At the end of the New Jedi Order, Luke Skywalker voiced his dream of seeing the Jedi renounce mundane concerns to pursue a longer view of the Force. That's a great ending for a series, but it makes for a pretty dull space opera. So I knew the Jedi would be dragged back into the mundane, forced by the necessities of the moment to devote themselves to preserving the Galactic Alliance.And it seemed very clear to me that they would be effective. The Jedi's battles against Yuuzhan Vong had instilled in them an iron will to win, and the new view on the Force taught by Vergere -- the mysterious Knight from the Old Republic -- had made them more powerful than they ever dreamed possible. wrote:
Poof doesn't benefit from this growth.
I do agree that Tales of the Jedi version of the Jedi order is incredibly knowledgeable, as they do meditate on knowledge and scrolls on a daily basis and has access to forbidden knowledge like the most powerful Sith Holocron. Which makes it all the more impressive that Thon is capable of TEACHING THEM additional knowledge when he just arrived at the Jedi Praxeum:
Interviews with other Jedi Masters have uncovered additional information that has further deepened the mystery surrounding this all-too-silent being. Appar- ently, Thon arrived on Ossus already possessing great skill as a Jedi. He even taught the assembled Masters several unknown powers, increasing their desire to know more about Thon's origins. Thon responded to their questions by saying in his deep, guttural voice, "It is better that you do not know - at least, not yet."
Baseless Bullshit Counter: 2
In fact, quite the opposite is true. According to this quote from Power of the Jedi:
The "period described in Tales of the Jedi" is one in which "violence was a frequent way of life" which leads to it being the era where "Jedi Weapon masters were most common". Jedi weapon masters are ones who "make fighting the central focus of their union with the force" and are "adepts of various styles of melee combat". If you actually think about it, this makes absolute sense. TOTJ is an era where different masters are allocated to different systems and acts as watchmen. They frequently have to deal with insurgence and to keep the system safe.
Notice that being warriors is not mutually contradictory from them being incredibly knowledgeable. Instead, I would posit that the reason they are capable of achieving both is because the link between TOTJ Jedi and the republic at the time is infinitely weaker than it is during PT. So unlike the PT Jedi who has to fulfill the political agenda of corrupt bureaucrats, the TOTJ masters can focus all their time on improving their own understanding of all aspects of the force, including both improving their knowledge of the force AND understanding the martial side of it, which is another route to understanding the force. Ultimately, this argument turns on your head because all it proves is that the TOTJ order is the best of both worlds, incorporating the best from both the OT and the PT Jedi philosophy.
This argument makes no sense. Read below for a nuanced breakdown of this argument:
However, as the next section will prove, even if your argument is right, it's just another example of the faults of applying broad era stereotypes on specific characters. Even if the TOTJ era is geared toward passiveness, Thon clearly isn't, which would further discredit this methodology.
I want to make Thon's combative superiority in this fight very clear. At the end of this section it should be clear that not only is the notion from Xan that Thon is only a monk laughable, but his status as a Jedi weapon master as well as his Hssiss scaling makes him the clear physical combat superior in this fight. Let's get started:
This is a hilarious mischaraterization of Thon's character. Not only do you not have any proof that Thon is not a warrior and primarily a monk
Baseless Bullshit Counter: 3
But you're also relying entirely upon an intuition pump for the idea that monks are below warriors anyways:
Baseless Bullshit Counter: 4
Argument for monk > warriors here:
---
Anyways, as covered in my last post, Thon is an extremely knowledgeable scholar who emphasize combat. As I mentioned in my last post, Thon is utterly "devoted to the martial sides [of the force]" (link) who is "one of the most advanced Jedi masters" (link) and is also "respected for his abilities as a warrior". On TOP of this incredibly combative proficiency, he is also extremely knowledgeable in the force, as TOTJ Companion notes "Thon has access to all Jedi powers listed in this book, plus many others as yet undiscovered" (link). Thon is primarily a warrior who just so happened to be one of the most knowledge Jedi of all time.
But let's steelman his physical combative expertise, making Xan's assertion that he is a "monk" even more laughable.
Thon is noted by Power of the Jedi Sourcebook to be a Jedi weapon master:
Jedi weapon masters are the most capable combatants of the order:
Is it battle that stirs you, to meet an enemy blade upon blade? Such is the way of the greatest of the Jedi warriors…the Weapon Masters.
Revered for their combat skills:
They would forsake their studies in other aspects of the force and make combat their primary focus:
She had achieved the rare and prestigious rank of Jedi Weapons Master. Eschewing all other fields of study and forsaking the development of her other Force talents to focus exclusively on the lightsaber and combat, she had transformed herself into a living weapon.
As perviously mentioned, they also make the martial aspects of the force the way they gain unity with the force, which makes sense given that Thon is devoted to the martial aspects of the force. However, Thon is also extremely knowledgeable, having daily meditations with the only Jedi masters of the era on the force (link), which also includes conferences and studies on the most deep iotas of the force (link).
Thon is the best of both worlds in this era.
In terms of combat, he is "one of the most advanced Jedi masters" and a Jedi weapon master who are "the greatest of Jedi warriors" in an era where "violence is a frequent way of life".
In terms of knowledge, he has access to every single Jedi power known to the Jedi order (who per Xan are geared toward knowledge?) and taught the most knowledgeable Jedi masters of the time new unknown Jedi skills.
I talked about the Hssiss scaling Thon gets in my last post, how he defeated and drove off hordes of Hssiss to claim the Ambrian wastes, as well as confining the Hssiss into Lake Natth. Xan did not address this scaling at all, so until he brings up responses I'll be assuming a concession. I want to further elaborate on that scaling in this post.
Exile scaling:
For one thing, in that post I talked about how a few Hssiss is enough to "humble" the Jedi Exile. According to the Knights of the Old Republic II Prima Guide, the Korriban arc would've been very near end-game (Exile has a quick visit to Onderon before she goes off to confront Nihilus). However, the planet order is completely optional and no matter which planet order you choose the game is still canonical. So Kreia would've remarked that the Hssiss are enough to "humble" near endgame Exile.
Subsequent scalings thru Exile:
I) Exile is capable of beating Visas Marr in spars while unarmed (1) . Visas Marr is the shadow Hand of Nihilus, being second only to Nihilus in combative capabilities (2). This would place her beyond the Sith masters of the time, who are already the elite from the hundreds of the Sith in that time (3). They became masters thru trials of blood (4) , placing them beyond bladeborns who are the most elite Sith assassins (5). Each assassin however is capable of defeating 10+ Sith/Jedi of the time (6). What is impressive about this is that both the Jedi and the Sith of this period are in their absolute prime (7).
II) Exile was able to defend against near endless amounts of Sith warriors and soldiers in an entire fucking army and blitz thru them prior to defeating Nihilus, who is extremely powerful in the force:
III) She was capable of defeating Atris, who is a master of lightsaber combat (1), being more of a lightsaber virtuoso than master Kavar (2) who himself has egendary combative abilities (3). She further increased her power and combative capabilities thru Sith Holocrons (4) and yet was "no match" for the exile:
IV) While on Malachor, one of the most potent Dark Side nexus in the galaxy (1), Exile blitzes thru hordes of the strongest Sith warriors of the time(2), who as mentioned before are extremely potent warriors, prior to defeating Darth Sion, an ultra master of the force who is incredibly powerful and skilled (also the master of the Sith assassins whose potency was covered earlier) (3), who is more potent in this fight than he was on the Ravager, another potent DS nexus (4).
V) After fighting through all these hordes of enemies, she then defeats Traya who is throwing everything she has at her (which would include her knowledge of all 7 forms and trakata) (1), despite being less powerful, indicating full combative superiority (2). This is impressive as Traya can obliterate 20 Sith assassins with a mere thought (3) and is one of the consummate combative masters knowing all 7 forms (4) which Exile at this point also has access to. Traya is also the most skilled member of their Sith order (5) She does this on the most potent part of the Malachor Nexus which would hinder her massively (6).
VI) Exile has access to every form of Jedi combat. I'll only be putting Juyo here but she has the option to learn all 7 forms of combat before she faces the Hssiss:
Obviously massive thanks to Ancient Power and Shooting Nova for creating the respective Exile RTs that makes this section so much easier
These scalings and potency are all far beyond anything Yarael Poof has under his belt
---
You might dispute the Jedi Exile being below Hssiss.
Thankfully, Hssiss scaling isn't contingent on the above only. The Hssiss have clear superiority to the Tuk'ata. Allow me to elaborate:
Tuk'ata scaling:
When it comes to the hierarchy of beasts within KOTOR, the Hssiss are clearly superior to the Tuk'ata. As mentioned in my last post, when it comes to the Hssiss, KOTOR II Prima Guide suggests the player to just run since the game doesn't consider Exile a match for them yet (1,2). However, when it comes to the Tuk'ata, the game just tells you to slaughter them directly:
When it comes to the Hssiss, the game tells you to run, when it comes to the Tuk'ata, the game tells you to slaughter them quickly. I think this is a clear indication that the Hssiss are beyond the Tuk'ata. Why is this impressive you ask?
Tuk'ata are consistently capable of challenging high-tier Jedi masters in combat, doing so to a Jedi strike team of Soara Antana, Obi Wan, Siri, Anakin, Ferus Olin, and 3 other Jedi padawans:
The vicious tuk'ata moved at lightning speed. They did not have an attack strategy. They didn't need one. They charged with flashing teeth and claws and whipping stingers.
Anakin jumped toward the lead tuk'ata. He wanted to be the first to bring one down. The beast whirled, its yellow eyes flat with menace. One massive claw swiped through the air. Anakin caught it with his lightsaber. The beast howled. He had only angered it.
He needed to hit a vulnerable spot. He saw Ferus and Siri attack a tuk'ata together, moving in rhythm. Perhaps he should have waited for his own Master, but with a quick look over his shoulder Anakin saw that Obi-Wan was occupied with two tuk'ata at once, while Ry-Gaul and Tru were racing to help.
The creature swiped at him again, and, anticipating the move, Anakin ducked and rolled, trying to strike up into the beast's chest, where he assumed a blow would kill it. To his surprise, the stinger landed on his arm. He had not expected that range of motion. Instantly, his arm was on fire, though the stinger had barely licked him. Anakin flipped his lightsaber to his other hand, cursing his luck.
The tuk'ata struck, no doubt following up on his advantage. While its prey was immobilized by the poison, the beast would finish him off. But Anakin was able to flip backward and strike, this time burying his lightsaber in the middle of the creature's head. He heard the sizzle and smelled the smoke. The yellow eyes rolled, and the creature fell dead.
Ry-Gaul and Tru had been outflanked by two tuk'ata. Obi-Wan had his hands full with one massive beast, bigger and fiercer than the rest. Anakin leaped on the back of the tuk'ata bearing down on his Master, hoping to distract it. The beast reared up, both stingers waving, while Anakin did a quick and elusive dance to avoid their sting.
Obi-Wan advanced, striking the tuk'ata with a series of hard blows. The creature staggered. Anakin was able to slash at the creature's neck before he was thrown off. The tuk'ata screamed, rearing, and Anakin and ObiWan leaped out of its way. It toppled and thrashed and then was still.
They were already moving, turning to charge one of the tuk'ata who was after Tru. With a roar, it turned on them instead, circling and striking, trying to get claws and teeth embedded into Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan used his liquid cable launcher and anchored it on the creature's horn. Using the cable, he swung up and out, his lightsaber a blur of motion as he attacked again and again. The creature howled, trying to claw Obi-Wan away. Anakin was able to deliver the death blow in the chest.
Obi-Wan swung off the creature and landed, his boots thudding on the dirt. The cries of the tuk'ata mingled with the buzz of lightsabers as the Jedi met their attacks with moves and counter-moves. The tide of the battle was turning. Five tuk'ata lay dead, and two were mortally wounded. Anakin and Obi-Wan were able to team up with Ry-Gaul and Tru first alternately feinting to confuse the creature, and then slicing it into several pieces. Soara and Darra, working together in their usual flawless teamwork, had somehow kept two tuk'ata at bay. Wounded, the two counterattacked, but Darra and Soara were too fast, too agile, and too strong.
As well as challenge the strike team of Luke Jaina and Ben:
They had disturbed the guardians of the tombs, who were now descending, more than a dozen of them, with a single, driving thought: Kill the intruders.
And the Sith hounds would. Ben realized that almost at once. There were simply too many of them, and they were too strong with the dark side of the Force.
Ben had faced death before, and a peculiar calmness descended on him. He lifted his lightsaber, fixed his gaze with that of the leader, and prepared to slay as many of them as he could before the inevitable. The sudden, absurd thought came to him that they were much, much bigger than he had expected them to be.
Credits to CV Darthor for making his Bane blog which contains a detailed analysis of the quote, and thanks to Cheth for being probably the only person to actually read it carefully and supplying current retard Darthor the quotes
--- --- ---
I don't want this to be a sort of autistic scaling putting Thon vastly beyond Exile Traya Anakin Obi Wan or Luke. (Credits to Janix for making me realize the faults of the autistic scaling of the last debate
). Instead, this is just supposed to highlight the overall combative competence of Thon. Hssiss are incredibly potent creatures who can definitely pose a challenge to very skilled Jedi combatants who's feats and hype are well beyond Poof, and Thon chase off hordes of them. This is not supposed to be some ironclad scaling, but it definitely is more than enough to put Thon far beyond the lackluster feats and scalings of Yarael Poof. I think this is enough to steelman the notion that Thon is the comfortable combative superior in this fight.
Well the rules of this fight that both parties agreed to stipulates a starting distance of 5 meters:
Standard forum rules apply, no character limits but try to keep posts concise, 2 weeks time limit, 5 meters starting distance, all characters in their prime, yada yada yada
Well, I want to now draw your attention to the first display of combative competence we got from Thon.
When Oss Wilum fights the pirate/raiders, we saw that the distance between the fighting field and Thon's house is approximately 5 meters:
as you can see, the distance from the entrance to the Hut to the battle field is approximately 5 meters
when Oss was defeated Thon was still standing at the entrance (can see the door on his back)
and then before he was executed, before the thugs can react, he already jumped into the middle:
and then obliterated them with a single display of TK, making Bogga the great (somebody with a massive ego (calls himself the great lol)) concede inferiority instantly:
Since Thon's modus operandi is to confront his enemies directly, he would likely charge at Poof at the start of the fight. As we can see, he is capable of making that distance before the thugs can react and already obliterate them. He would be instantly charging at Poof at the start of this fight and spamming him with melee and force attacks (that we know he is quite adept at). I see no reason to believe that Poof has the time and concentration needed to pull off some serious telepathic attack before getting obliterated.
But can Thon even use a lightsaber??
To cover the most common intuition pump used against Thon, he can indeed use a lightsaber:
POTJ stated that he has ambidexterity (link) which is loosely defined as the 'ability to use the right and left hands equally well".
Thon is trained in lightsaber combat, can hold a lightsaber with all 4 arms, and is a weapon master. I see no reason to put him beyond Poof in lightsaber combat as well.
THON THON THON THON THON THON THON
I. Broad Era Comparisons:
Before I start actually dealing with the points from Xan, I noticed that he really loves to use intuition pumps as substantiation for points. Poof can INTUITIVELY TP Tiin, warriors are INTUITIVELY beyond monks in fight. So I'll return an intuition pump of my own. Do you really think in good faith that if Thon is in the PT, he would be anything below a councilor? Somebody who is stressed as a legendary wise master who is compared with Yoda, and is centuries years old and has access to every Jedi power on top of being a weapon master, would be a random master or a knight in the PT order?
CC Optimization:
Xan said:
I'd like to start by first addressing this one sentence. TotJ was obviously not beholden to PT supremacy when it was written; the PT didn't even exist back then. It is entirely pointless to invoke the Kevin J. Anders quote to say TotJ isn't bound by PT supremacy quotes. LFL not tracking power levels means no Star Wars content is inherently beholden to any power level quotes or statements, which is exactly why we have CC to act as the arbiter of what is most likely to be the truth in Star Wars. Presumably, you endorse CC as a valid methodology, seeing as you cite it in your post. That being said, let's look Darthor's quote in context.
I agree, TOTJ is indeed not beholden to any power level quotes stating PT supremacy.
Xan said:
CC is specifically designed to overcome the problem of LFL not tracking power levels, and it doesn't do so by automatically assigning equal weight to quotes LFL doesn't track, which would again be any and all power level quotes. Such a methodology would have non-movie centric cereal box quotes weighed equally with Lucas quotes, which is not at all how LFL weighs Lucas' opinion. CC details the 5 key considerations of LFL's decision making process with respect to canonicity: Recency, Frequency, Visibility, Coolness, and Officiality.
That's not quite my methodology though? My proposal is that we neglect any marginal era gaps and focus on the characters instead, considering that neither era is notably weaker than the other. But let's just go through your CC optimization argument anyways:
A) Recency:
Recency: The entire point of the recency consideration is to say that old quotes don't bind new material. The Star Wars Galaxy Magazine 8 quote, released in 1996, wouldn't have much, if any, authority over the PT. You can see how this would work the other way, in the PT's favor. The KOTOR campaign guide is admittedly more recent than the final move of the PT, but it falls to G-canon for other considerations.
Concession Accepted
I'm glad you agree that my take is backed up by various more recent sources as well. Your cherrypicking of one of my sources notwithstanding. Notably, I think Galaxy Magazine 8's quote is incredibly important at showing that the narrative intent of TOTJ and PT are similar insofar as they're trying to showcase the Jedi knights in their prime.
This doesn't engage with recency at all. You're using other considerations (in this case Officiality) to argue for PT having more recency. PT having more official quotes doesn't mean they're more recent.
Until then, TOTJ has a point.
B): Frequency:
Xan said:
Frequency: I don't know if Darthor wants to go scan for scan and compare the sheer number of quotes? Regardless, it is quite difficult for me to imagine that there are more sources affirming TotJ supremacy than PT supremacy.
Perhaps PT does have an advantage here due to increased exposure compared to TOTJ, but relative to the number of sources that covers TOTJ I'd actually say TOTJ has an advantage.
C) Visibility:
Xan said:
Visibility: The movies are obviously more visible than TotJ. It should follow that movie quotes are more visible than TotJ quotes. The number of people willing to take the time and do the research to find these quotes should scale up with the number of fans for that particular media. Furthermore, people who are fans of TotJ are very likely fans of the PT, meaning the average TotJ fan who invests time into looking for these supremacy quotes has likely also spent time looking for PT supremacy quotes.
You're asserting that the movies support your takes at all. Provide proof directly from the movies, either dialogue or a scene, that directly affirms PT supremacy? Until then:
Baseless Bullshit Counter: 1
Moreover, the vast majority of PT supremacy quotes typically thrown around are obscure Lucas interviews with like 200 views, or articles in the depth of SW.com archives. I would challenge that the literal opening crawl of TOTJ and mainline sourcebooks like POTJ and KOTOR Campaign Guide are more visible.
Another point to TOTJ
D) Coolness
Xan said:
Coolness: Coolness is quite subjective, so we'll leave it at that. However, I can think of potential ways to exploit this pillar, and I reserve the right to bring them up later, should I feel like it.
Agreed
E) Officiality:
Xan said:
Officiality: The final nail in the coffin for TotJ supremacy, the very thing that makes G-canon, G-canon. Even if TotJ was given largely free reign, LFL would still not weigh Veitch's opinion on Star Wars the same as Lucas'. Veitch's opinion might (and honestly, I'm only saying "might" to throw Veitch a bone here) be considered more on topics relevant to his works, but this doesn't extend to other pieces of Star Wars media or other topics, and certainly not the ones involving Lucas' work. Its true that in Lucas' head, he is only speaking to his movies and his Star Wars, but the point of G-canons existence in the EU is to give Lucas' words and ideas supreme authority over others, because it is his work that forms the bedrock of the EU. PT supremacy quotes pass the three considerations Chee lays out here, meaning the general claim of "things that come from the films and from George usually take a higher priority than other sources" holds in this case. This applies to both Veitch's word and the material in the KOTOR campaign guide.
I am wiling to agree that PT does align more with "more official" comments since it is closer to the movies, however I would counter-assert that the Officiality of Lucas is DERIVED from the idea that the rest of the EU is beholden to him in the first place. Given you conceded that TOTJ isn't, it definitely murky the water of whether or not this is all that binding.
I'm willing to be charitable and give you part of this point though.
---
So what did we establish? Xan conceded that my take is supported by more recent sources. TOTJ's quotes are far more visible than obscure interviews online, and TOTJ is arguably more frequent relative to the number of sources that discusses it.
Xan said:
There are an additional three principles that comprise the consideration temple of LFL fact. However, all I had set out to do in the above section was to establish that my opponent's method of weighing is not at all aligned with what CC proposes, which is derived from LFL's own considerations. Unless Darthor somehow thinks that the additional three principles weigh in his favor, PT supremacy being "weighed at best as much as TOTJ quotes" does not stand.
And honestly my methodology makes more sense. Authors clearly doesn't decide which character is more powerful based on their era. If we have two eras, neither are noticeably weak, it would make a lot of sense for us to discuss the characters themselves.
Notice also that Poof being in a stronger era is not indicative of his superiority to Thon in any way shape or form.
Xan said:
The best of the best era would be above the best of a lesser era.
I am seriously confused as to what you seek to prove with this argument. Thon's aesthetics as a character is a legendary wise and powerful Jedi master who was literally compared with Yoda in power:
"But the great Jedi, the Masters—Yoda and Thon and Nomi Sunrider—they could summon light, could make metal glow so that their puny little friends wouldn't stumble either."
-- Planet Of Twilight
Do you unironically think that if this character is placed into the PT authors would give up this fundamental aesthetic in favor of some arbitrary marginal differentiation between the power levels of different eras? --- --- ---
Combat Optimization:
Xan said:
Consider that the PT Jedi are explicitly the product of a Jedi order geared toward war and combat (per the RotS novel, quote can be provided if needed),whereas TotJ Jedi are more like OT Jedi and geared toward passiveness and knowledge (out of necessity, since TotJ Jedi could only have been modeled after the OT philosophy.
That quote from ROTS is in reference to the Jedi heroes during The Clone Wars. In fact, the entire PASSAGE is referencing the Jedi's clash with the separatists. This does NOT apply to Yarael Poof who died before the Clone Wars occurred. The fact that he lived in PT doesn't mean he benefits from the wank of the Jedi during TCW (who experienced war growth). Passage in question:
- Spoiler:
“The Age of Heroes
The skies of Coruscant blaze with war.
The artificial daylight spread by the capital's orbital mirrors is sliced by intersecting flames of ion drives and punctuated by starburst explosions; contrails of debris raining into the atmosphere become tangled ribbons of cloud. The nightside sky is an infinite lattice of shining hairlines that interlock planetoids and track erratic spirals of glowing gnats. Beings watching from rooftops of Coruscant's endless cityscape can find it beautiful.
From the inside, it's different.
The gnats are drive-glows of starfighters. The shining hairlines are light-scatter from turbolaser bolts powerful enough to vaporize a small town. The planetoids are capital ships.
The battle from the inside is a storm of confusion and panic, of galvened particle beams flashing past your starfighter so close that your cockpit rings like a broken annunciator, of the boot-sole shock of concussion missiles that blast into your cruiser, killing beings you have trained with and eaten with and played and laughed and bickered with. From the inside, the battle is desperation and terror and the stomach-churning certainty that the whole galaxy is trying to kill you. Across the remnants of the Republic, stunned beings watch in horror as the battle unfolds live on the HoloNet. Everyone knows the war has been going badly. Everyone knows that more Jedi are killed or captured every day, that the Grand Army of the Republic has been pushed out of system after system, but this-A strike at the very heart of the Republic?
An invasion of Coruscant itself?
How can this happen?
It's a nightmare, and no one can wake up.
Live via HoloNet, beings watch the Separatist droid army flood the government district. The coverage is filled with images of overmatched clone troopers cut down by remorselessly powerful destroyer droids in the halls of the Galactic Senate itself.
A gasp of relief: the troopers seem to beat back the attack. There are hugs and even some quiet cheers in living rooms across the galaxy as the Separatist forces retreat to their landers and streak for orbit-We won! beings tell each other. We held them off!
But then new reports trickle in-only rumors at first-that the attack wasn't an invasion at all. That the Separatists weren't trying to take the planet. That this was a lightning raid on the Senate itself.
The nightmare gets worse: the Supreme Chancellor is missing.
Palpatine of Naboo, the most admired man in the galaxy, whose unmatched political skills have held the Republic together. Whose personal integrity and courage prove that the Separatist propaganda of corruption in the Senate is nothing but lies. Whose charismatic leadership gives the whole Republic the will to fight on.
Palpatine is more than respected. He is loved.
Even the rumor of his disappearance strikes a dagger to the heart of every friend of the Republic. Every one of them knows it in her heart, in his gut, in its very bones-Without Palpatine, the Republic will fall.
And now confirmation comes through, and the news is worse than anyone could have imagined. Supreme Chancellor Palpatine has been captured by the Separatists-and not just the Separatists.
He's in the hands of General Grievous.
Grievous is not like other leaders of the Separatists. Nute Gunray is treacherous and venal, but he's Neimoidian: venality and treachery are expected, and in the Chancellor of the Trade Federation they're even virtues. Poggle the Lesser is Archduke of the weapon masters of Geonosis, where the war began: he is analytical and pitiless, but also pragmatic. Reasonable. The political heart of the Separatist Confederacy, Count Dooku, is known for his integrity, his principled stand against what he sees as corruption in the Senate. Though they believe he's wrong, many respect him for the courage of his mistaken convictions.
These are hard beings. Dangerous beings. Ruthless and aggressive.
General Grievous, though-Grievous is a monster.
The Separatist Supreme Commander is an abomination of nature, a fusion of flesh and droid-and his droid parts have more compassion than what remains of his alien flesh. This half-living creature is a slaughterer of billions. Whole planets have burned at his command. He is the evil genius of the Confederacy. The architect of their victories.
The author of their atrocities.
And his durasteel grip has closed upon Palpatine. He confirms the capture personally in a wideband transmission from his command cruiser in the midst of the orbital battle. Beings across the galaxy watch, and shudder, and pray that they might wake up from this awful dream.
Because they know that what they're watching, live on the HoloNet, is the death of the Republic.
Many among these beings break into tears; many more reach out to comfort their husbands or wives, their creche-mates or kin-triads, and their younglings of all descriptions, from children to cubs to spawn-fry.
But here is a strange thing: few of the younglings need comfort. It is instead the younglings who offer comfort to their elders. Across the Republic-in words or pheromones, in magnetic pulses, tentacle-braids, or mental telepathy-the message from the younglings is the same: Don't worry. It'll be all right.
Anakin and Obi-Wan will be there any minute.
They say this as though these names can conjure miracles.
Anakin and Obi-Wan. Kenobi and Skywalker. From the beginning of the Clone Wars, the phrase Kenobi and Skywalker has become a single word. They are everywhere. HoloNet features of their operations against the Separatist enemy have made them the most famous Jedi in the galaxy.
Younglings across the galaxy know their names, know everything about them, follow their exploits as though they are sports heroes instead of warriors in a desperate battle to save civilization. Even grown-ups are not immune; it's not uncommon for an exasperated parent to ask, when faced with offspring who have just tried to pull off one of the spectacularly dangerous bits of foolishness that are the stock-in-“trade of high-spirited younglings everywhere, So which were you supposed to be, Kenobi or Skywalker?
Kenobi would rather talk than fight, but when there is fighting to be done, few can match him. Skywalker is the master of audacity; his intensity, boldness, and sheer jaw-dropping luck are the perfect complement to Kenobi's deliberate, balanced steadiness. Together, they are a Jedi hammer that has crushed Separatist infestations on scores of worlds.
All the younglings watching the battle in Coruscant's sky know it: when Anakin and Obi-Wan get there, those dirty Seppers are going to wish they'd stayed in bed today.
The adults know better, of course. That's part of what being a grown-up is: understanding that heroes are created by the HoloNet, and that the real-life Kenobi and Skywalker are only human beings, after all.
Even if they really are everything the legends say they are, who's to say they'll show up in time? Who knows where they are right now? They might be trapped on some Separatist backwater. They might be captured, or wounded. Even dead.
“trade of high-spirited younglings everywhere, So which were you supposed to be, Kenobi or Skywalker?
Kenobi would rather talk than fight, but when there is fighting to be done, few can match him. Skywalker is the master of audacity; his intensity, boldness, and sheer jaw-dropping luck are the perfect complement to Kenobi's deliberate, balanced steadiness. Together, they are a Jedi hammer that has crushed Separatist infestations on scores of worlds.
All the younglings watching the battle in Coruscant's sky know it: when Anakin and Obi-Wan get there, those dirty Seppers are going to wish they'd stayed in bed today.
The adults know better, of course. That's part of what being a grown-up is: understanding that heroes are created by the HoloNet, and that the real-life Kenobi and Skywalker are only human beings, after all.
Even if they really are everything the legends say they are, who's to say they'll show up in time? Who knows where they are right now? They might be trapped on some Separatist backwater. They might be captured, or wounded. Even dead.”
“Some of the adults even whisper to themselves, They might have fallen.
Because the stories are out there. Not on the HoloNet, of course-the HoloNet news is under the control of the Office of the Supreme Chancellor, and not even Palpatine's renowned candor would allow tales like these to be told-but people hear whispers. Whispers of names that the Jedi would like to pretend never existed.
Sora Bulq. Depa Billaba. Jedi who have fallen to the dark. Who have joined the Separatists, or worse: who have massacred civilians, or even murdered their comrades. The adults have a sickening suspicion that Jedi cannot be trusted. Not anymore. That even the greatest of them can suddenly just . . . snap.
The adults know that legendary heroes are merely legends, and not heroes at all.
These adults can take no comfort from their younglings. Palpatine is captured. Grievous will escape. The Republic will fall. No mere human beings can turn this tide. No mere human beings would even try. Not even Kenobi and Skywalker.
“And so it is that these adults across the galaxy watch the HoloNet with ashes where their hearts should be.
Ashes because they can't see two prismatic bursts of realspace reversion, far out beyond the planet's gravity well; because they can't see a pair of starfighters crisply jettison hyperdrive rings and streak into the storm of Separatist vulture fighters with all guns blazing.
A pair of starfighters. Jedi starfighters. Only two.
Two is enough.
Two is enough because the adults are wrong, and their younglings are right.
Though this is the end of the age of heroes, it has saved its best for last.
”
Taken From: ROTS Senior Novelization
Examples of Jedi Order growing massively thru wars and conflicts are frequent thru-out Star Wars. Like KOTOR (link) or NJO (link). In fact, the Vong war made NJO Jedi more powerful than they ever dreamed possible:
How were the Jedi changed by the war? At the end of the New Jedi Order, Luke Skywalker voiced his dream of seeing the Jedi renounce mundane concerns to pursue a longer view of the Force. That's a great ending for a series, but it makes for a pretty dull space opera. So I knew the Jedi would be dragged back into the mundane, forced by the necessities of the moment to devote themselves to preserving the Galactic Alliance.And it seemed very clear to me that they would be effective. The Jedi's battles against Yuuzhan Vong had instilled in them an iron will to win, and the new view on the Force taught by Vergere -- the mysterious Knight from the Old Republic -- had made them more powerful than they ever dreamed possible. wrote:
Poof doesn't benefit from this growth.
I do agree that Tales of the Jedi version of the Jedi order is incredibly knowledgeable, as they do meditate on knowledge and scrolls on a daily basis and has access to forbidden knowledge like the most powerful Sith Holocron. Which makes it all the more impressive that Thon is capable of TEACHING THEM additional knowledge when he just arrived at the Jedi Praxeum:
Interviews with other Jedi Masters have uncovered additional information that has further deepened the mystery surrounding this all-too-silent being. Appar- ently, Thon arrived on Ossus already possessing great skill as a Jedi. He even taught the assembled Masters several unknown powers, increasing their desire to know more about Thon's origins. Thon responded to their questions by saying in his deep, guttural voice, "It is better that you do not know - at least, not yet."
TOTJ Companion
However, the notion that the TOTJ order is geared toward passiveness is an utter assertion. Before you bring out proof:Baseless Bullshit Counter: 2
In fact, quite the opposite is true. According to this quote from Power of the Jedi:
The "period described in Tales of the Jedi" is one in which "violence was a frequent way of life" which leads to it being the era where "Jedi Weapon masters were most common". Jedi weapon masters are ones who "make fighting the central focus of their union with the force" and are "adepts of various styles of melee combat". If you actually think about it, this makes absolute sense. TOTJ is an era where different masters are allocated to different systems and acts as watchmen. They frequently have to deal with insurgence and to keep the system safe.
Notice that being warriors is not mutually contradictory from them being incredibly knowledgeable. Instead, I would posit that the reason they are capable of achieving both is because the link between TOTJ Jedi and the republic at the time is infinitely weaker than it is during PT. So unlike the PT Jedi who has to fulfill the political agenda of corrupt bureaucrats, the TOTJ masters can focus all their time on improving their own understanding of all aspects of the force, including both improving their knowledge of the force AND understanding the martial side of it, which is another route to understanding the force. Ultimately, this argument turns on your head because all it proves is that the TOTJ order is the best of both worlds, incorporating the best from both the OT and the PT Jedi philosophy.
This argument makes no sense. Read below for a nuanced breakdown of this argument:
- Spoiler:
The basis of Xan's claim is the notion that "[TOTJ is geared toward passiveness] out of necessity, since TotJ Jedi could only have been modeled after the OT philosophy". What this would imply is that an era is bound by the Jedi philosophy of its predecessors out of "necessity" because that is the only philosophy it can be modeled after. The notion that the Jedi philosophy of an era is "bound" by its predecessor would imply that no era can create its own Jedi philosophy, as it can only be modeled after the first one that is created (which creates a snowball effect. I.e., the second era is bound by the first, the third is bound by the second and thus the first, etc.). So EVERY SINGLE ERA would therefore under this methodology be bound by the OT's philosophy of being geared toward passiveness "out of necessity". This includes the PT, as it was created in an era where the only predecessors are the OT and the TOTJ era (which is modeled after the OT according to him). If Xan believes that TOTJ is bound by the philosophy of the OT "out of necessity", then so is the PT. If the PT can create its own Jedi philosophy, then so can TOTJ. So this argument doesn't prove that the TOTJ is bound after the OT's philosophy.
However, as the next section will prove, even if your argument is right, it's just another example of the faults of applying broad era stereotypes on specific characters. Even if the TOTJ era is geared toward passiveness, Thon clearly isn't, which would further discredit this methodology.
II. Thon’s undeniable combative superiority
I want to make Thon's combative superiority in this fight very clear. At the end of this section it should be clear that not only is the notion from Xan that Thon is only a monk laughable, but his status as a Jedi weapon master as well as his Hssiss scaling makes him the clear physical combat superior in this fight. Let's get started:
A) Jedi Weapon Master:
Is it battle that stirs you, to meet an enemy blade upon blade? Such is the way of the greatest of the Jedi warriors…the Weapon Masters.
Xan said:
Of course, this does not mean TotJ can't have great fighters, but you would expect a warrior to fight better than a monk.
This is a hilarious mischaraterization of Thon's character. Not only do you not have any proof that Thon is not a warrior and primarily a monk
Baseless Bullshit Counter: 3
But you're also relying entirely upon an intuition pump for the idea that monks are below warriors anyways:
Baseless Bullshit Counter: 4
Argument for monk > warriors here:
---
Anyways, as covered in my last post, Thon is an extremely knowledgeable scholar who emphasize combat. As I mentioned in my last post, Thon is utterly "devoted to the martial sides [of the force]" (link) who is "one of the most advanced Jedi masters" (link) and is also "respected for his abilities as a warrior". On TOP of this incredibly combative proficiency, he is also extremely knowledgeable in the force, as TOTJ Companion notes "Thon has access to all Jedi powers listed in this book, plus many others as yet undiscovered" (link). Thon is primarily a warrior who just so happened to be one of the most knowledge Jedi of all time.
But let's steelman his physical combative expertise, making Xan's assertion that he is a "monk" even more laughable.
Thon is noted by Power of the Jedi Sourcebook to be a Jedi weapon master:
Jedi weapon masters are the most capable combatants of the order:
Is it battle that stirs you, to meet an enemy blade upon blade? Such is the way of the greatest of the Jedi warriors…the Weapon Masters.
Knights of the Old Republic II (Kreia)
Revered for their combat skills:
They would forsake their studies in other aspects of the force and make combat their primary focus:
She had achieved the rare and prestigious rank of Jedi Weapons Master. Eschewing all other fields of study and forsaking the development of her other Force talents to focus exclusively on the lightsaber and combat, she had transformed herself into a living weapon.
Darth Bane: Rule of Two
As perviously mentioned, they also make the martial aspects of the force the way they gain unity with the force, which makes sense given that Thon is devoted to the martial aspects of the force. However, Thon is also extremely knowledgeable, having daily meditations with the only Jedi masters of the era on the force (link), which also includes conferences and studies on the most deep iotas of the force (link).
Thon is the best of both worlds in this era.
In terms of combat, he is "one of the most advanced Jedi masters" and a Jedi weapon master who are "the greatest of Jedi warriors" in an era where "violence is a frequent way of life".
In terms of knowledge, he has access to every single Jedi power known to the Jedi order (who per Xan are geared toward knowledge?) and taught the most knowledgeable Jedi masters of the time new unknown Jedi skills.
B) Extended Hssiss scaling:
"Hssiss are enough to humble even an arrogant one such as you. Test yourself if you must, but try not to die."I talked about the Hssiss scaling Thon gets in my last post, how he defeated and drove off hordes of Hssiss to claim the Ambrian wastes, as well as confining the Hssiss into Lake Natth. Xan did not address this scaling at all, so until he brings up responses I'll be assuming a concession. I want to further elaborate on that scaling in this post.
Exile scaling:
For one thing, in that post I talked about how a few Hssiss is enough to "humble" the Jedi Exile. According to the Knights of the Old Republic II Prima Guide, the Korriban arc would've been very near end-game (Exile has a quick visit to Onderon before she goes off to confront Nihilus). However, the planet order is completely optional and no matter which planet order you choose the game is still canonical. So Kreia would've remarked that the Hssiss are enough to "humble" near endgame Exile.
Subsequent scalings thru Exile:
I) Exile is capable of beating Visas Marr in spars while unarmed (1) . Visas Marr is the shadow Hand of Nihilus, being second only to Nihilus in combative capabilities (2). This would place her beyond the Sith masters of the time, who are already the elite from the hundreds of the Sith in that time (3). They became masters thru trials of blood (4) , placing them beyond bladeborns who are the most elite Sith assassins (5). Each assassin however is capable of defeating 10+ Sith/Jedi of the time (6). What is impressive about this is that both the Jedi and the Sith of this period are in their absolute prime (7).
- Spoiler:
(1)
As Nihilus's Shadow Hand, Visas does her Lord's bidding. This includes tracking down a disturbance in the Force that turns out to be the Jedi Exile. They cross lightsabers, and Visas is summarily beaten, subsequently vowing loyalty to her vanquisher.KOTOR II
(2)
A Shadow Hand's expertise in cruelty, trickery and the dark side are second only to the Master - for nowKOTOR Campaign Guide
(3)
Dozens, if not hundreds of Sith apprentices learn the ways of the dark side of the Force, and a few even rise of the rank of Sith Master, training students of their ownKOTOR II
(4)
Meanwhile, Sith survivors wage civil war, culling the weak and electing leadership by the lightsaber's blade.KOTOR II
(5)
The most elite of these assassins are the Bladeborn - Sith blademasters who sometimes use lightsabers but more often wield dreaded tremor swords.KOTOR Campaign Guide
(6)
Traced to the Bladeborn, a Sith offshoot dedicated to sword mastery, these cortosis-faced weapons were given to “masterblades” who survived no less than 10 lightsaber-wielding warriors in combat.
(7)
II) Exile was able to defend against near endless amounts of Sith warriors and soldiers in an entire fucking army and blitz thru them prior to defeating Nihilus, who is extremely powerful in the force:
- Spoiler:
Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:
The Sith's numbers seem limitless...
How can you hope to defeat a force so vast and powerful?
Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Official Prima Game Guide wrote:
Placing the cores won't be easy thanks to the hordes of Sith commandos and officers in your way.
Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Official Prima Game Guide wrote:
The Lord of Hunger is protected by several chambers full of Dark Jedi and Sith heavy troopers. You must defeat these minions to reach the bridge and challenge Darth Nihilus himself.
Star Wars Miniatures Bust: Darth Nihilus wrote:
Darth Nihilus was one of the most powerful Sith Lords in the history of the galaxy, so corrupted that his very presence meant death.
Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide wrote:
Amazingly dark and devastating powers are the purview of some of the greatest Sith Lords of the Knights of the Old Republic era. They devastate and consume entire worlds with a thought... Average beings stand no chance of stopping these ultra-powerful monsters of the dark side.
Kreia, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords wrote:
"He is one who has learned the greatest of the Sith teachings - and it enslaved him."
III) She was capable of defeating Atris, who is a master of lightsaber combat (1), being more of a lightsaber virtuoso than master Kavar (2) who himself has egendary combative abilities (3). She further increased her power and combative capabilities thru Sith Holocrons (4) and yet was "no match" for the exile:
- Spoiler:
(1)
As a former member of the Jedi Council, Darth Traya is a master of lightsaber combat.Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Official Prima Game Guide
(2)
Kavar isn't as much of a lightsaber virtuoso as the other Jedi masters you've met, but he makes up for this with his extremely potent Force powers.Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Official Prima Game Guide
(3)
"Kavar, huh? The famed Jedi guardian? The Mandalorians counted on the fact that it would be you, not Revan, who would lead the Jedi against us during the Mandalorian Wars."Mandalore the Preserver: Knights of the Old Republic II
(4)
You confront her in her meditation chamber, where it's revealed that Traya has gathered dozens of Sith holocrons.Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Official Prima Game Guide
All this collected knowledge, all these teachings of combat and the Force - they are mine to command."Darth Traya a.k.a Atris, Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
(5)
But Atris's pride is no match for the Jedi Exile's lightsaber prowess.Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
IV) While on Malachor, one of the most potent Dark Side nexus in the galaxy (1), Exile blitzes thru hordes of the strongest Sith warriors of the time(2), who as mentioned before are extremely potent warriors, prior to defeating Darth Sion, an ultra master of the force who is incredibly powerful and skilled (also the master of the Sith assassins whose potency was covered earlier) (3), who is more potent in this fight than he was on the Ravager, another potent DS nexus (4).
- Spoiler:
(1)
Traversing its surface had been agony. Mentally, she had still sensed the anguish of all who had lost their lives there. Physically, the intense gravity of the world had held her in its crushing grip, leaving her gasping for breath. It had been the most awful and horrific experience of her lifeSWTOR: Revan
JEDI MASTER KREIA, Revan's old mentor, is still haunted by guilt, wondering whether it was her teaching that resulted in Revan's fall to the dark side, and begins to search for him. Sensing his last location, she travels to Malachor V, but is unable to shield her emotions, and is completely consumed by the dark side of the Force.Chronicles of the Old Republic
"There is a place in the galaxy where the dark side of the Force runs strong. It is something of the Sith, but it was fueled by war. It corrupts all that walks on its surface—drowns them in the power of the dark side. It corrupts all life, and it feeds on death."Kreia, Knights of the Old republic II
(2)
The Trayus Academy is the home of those Jedi who have succumbed the to dark side taint of Malachor V. To reach the structure's core, where Darth Sion and Kreia await, you must face a legion of elite Sith single-handedly.KOTOR II Prima Guide
Skills and subtlety may have served you well previously, but here there is no substitute for raw destructive power, whether through combat feats or Force attacks. Only by fighting your way through the Sith's strongest guardians can you earn the right to confront your nemesis.Knights of the Old Republic II Prima guide
(3)
Perhaps the most rage-filled Sith Lord yet encountered, Darth Sion is a shattered mesh of flesh and bone. Sion is in constant pain, but his body is held together by will and fury. He is a true, immortal manifestation of the Dark Side of the Force.Insider 88
Average beings stand no chance of stopping these ultra-powerful monsters of the dark side.Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
(4)
"Now you realize the true power of the dark side. As long as the dark places of this world flow through the cracks of my flesh, I cannot be killed."Darth Sion Knights of the Old Republic II
V) After fighting through all these hordes of enemies, she then defeats Traya who is throwing everything she has at her (which would include her knowledge of all 7 forms and trakata) (1), despite being less powerful, indicating full combative superiority (2). This is impressive as Traya can obliterate 20 Sith assassins with a mere thought (3) and is one of the consummate combative masters knowing all 7 forms (4) which Exile at this point also has access to. Traya is also the most skilled member of their Sith order (5) She does this on the most potent part of the Malachor Nexus which would hinder her massively (6).
- Spoiler:
(1)
Traya uses vast telekinetic powers to wield a trio of lightsabers against her, but she is ultimately killed by the person she considered her greatest disciple.Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
(2)
Although Traya was more powerful, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat.The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
(3)
In the next scene, cut to a shot of Kreia from behind, with Dark Side assassins materializing behind her, whispering - there should be almost up to 20, enough to make the audience go, "oh crap."
Cut to a camera of Kreia's face, smiling. She does not turn around as the assassins advance.
Cut to black, play Kreia's stinger - I want this to be a "flash of black" like a quick cut in a movie.
Cut to a scene of Kreia still walking along the same path, but ALL the assassins are lying dead on the ground.Knights of the Old Republic II
(4)
"The Jedi practice many forms, many styles of lightsaber combat. It is good to know them, but not to rely on them."Kreia, Knights of the d Republic II: The Sith Lords
There are seven main forms of lightsaber combat. Every Jedi has a favourite, but the most skilled can switch between all the styles depending on the situation.
Mysteries of the Jedi
(5)
Meanwhile, Sith survivors wage civil war, culling the weak and electing leadership by the lightsaber's blade.Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
(6)
The nexus of the Trayus Academy, the core is a clawlike altar built over a colossal geyser of dark side energy. It is here that you face your ultimate battle and fulfill your destiny.Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords Official Prima Game Guide
VI) Exile has access to every form of Jedi combat. I'll only be putting Juyo here but she has the option to learn all 7 forms of combat before she faces the Hssiss:
- Spoiler:
"There are times when you want to overwhelm a particular opponent quickly. For these situations, use the Juyo form. Do not get carried away using this form, particularly against Dark Jedi. The ferocity required to use this form leaves one vulnerable to enemy Force powers."Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
"I hesitate to teach this to you, because of your demonstrated recklessness... This is Juyo, a very ferocious form of lightsaber offense. It goes without saying to exercise proper control and restraint when using this technique. It may allow you to eviscerate a lone enemy, but it will leave you open to attack by Force powers."Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
Only high-level masters of multiple forms can achieve and control the ultimate discipline known as Form VII.Source: Insider #62: Fightsaber"Perhaps one of the greatest styles, learned only by the most skilled of Force wielders."Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
"Excellent! I'm impressed with how quickly you've mastered this form. I always knew you were gifted."Source: Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords
Obviously massive thanks to Ancient Power and Shooting Nova for creating the respective Exile RTs that makes this section so much easier
These scalings and potency are all far beyond anything Yarael Poof has under his belt
---
You might dispute the Jedi Exile being below Hssiss.
Thankfully, Hssiss scaling isn't contingent on the above only. The Hssiss have clear superiority to the Tuk'ata. Allow me to elaborate:
Tuk'ata scaling:
When it comes to the hierarchy of beasts within KOTOR, the Hssiss are clearly superior to the Tuk'ata. As mentioned in my last post, when it comes to the Hssiss, KOTOR II Prima Guide suggests the player to just run since the game doesn't consider Exile a match for them yet (1,2). However, when it comes to the Tuk'ata, the game just tells you to slaughter them directly:
When it comes to the Hssiss, the game tells you to run, when it comes to the Tuk'ata, the game tells you to slaughter them quickly. I think this is a clear indication that the Hssiss are beyond the Tuk'ata. Why is this impressive you ask?
Tuk'ata are consistently capable of challenging high-tier Jedi masters in combat, doing so to a Jedi strike team of Soara Antana, Obi Wan, Siri, Anakin, Ferus Olin, and 3 other Jedi padawans:
The vicious tuk'ata moved at lightning speed. They did not have an attack strategy. They didn't need one. They charged with flashing teeth and claws and whipping stingers.
Anakin jumped toward the lead tuk'ata. He wanted to be the first to bring one down. The beast whirled, its yellow eyes flat with menace. One massive claw swiped through the air. Anakin caught it with his lightsaber. The beast howled. He had only angered it.
He needed to hit a vulnerable spot. He saw Ferus and Siri attack a tuk'ata together, moving in rhythm. Perhaps he should have waited for his own Master, but with a quick look over his shoulder Anakin saw that Obi-Wan was occupied with two tuk'ata at once, while Ry-Gaul and Tru were racing to help.
The creature swiped at him again, and, anticipating the move, Anakin ducked and rolled, trying to strike up into the beast's chest, where he assumed a blow would kill it. To his surprise, the stinger landed on his arm. He had not expected that range of motion. Instantly, his arm was on fire, though the stinger had barely licked him. Anakin flipped his lightsaber to his other hand, cursing his luck.
The tuk'ata struck, no doubt following up on his advantage. While its prey was immobilized by the poison, the beast would finish him off. But Anakin was able to flip backward and strike, this time burying his lightsaber in the middle of the creature's head. He heard the sizzle and smelled the smoke. The yellow eyes rolled, and the creature fell dead.
Ry-Gaul and Tru had been outflanked by two tuk'ata. Obi-Wan had his hands full with one massive beast, bigger and fiercer than the rest. Anakin leaped on the back of the tuk'ata bearing down on his Master, hoping to distract it. The beast reared up, both stingers waving, while Anakin did a quick and elusive dance to avoid their sting.
Obi-Wan advanced, striking the tuk'ata with a series of hard blows. The creature staggered. Anakin was able to slash at the creature's neck before he was thrown off. The tuk'ata screamed, rearing, and Anakin and ObiWan leaped out of its way. It toppled and thrashed and then was still.
They were already moving, turning to charge one of the tuk'ata who was after Tru. With a roar, it turned on them instead, circling and striking, trying to get claws and teeth embedded into Obi-Wan. Obi-Wan used his liquid cable launcher and anchored it on the creature's horn. Using the cable, he swung up and out, his lightsaber a blur of motion as he attacked again and again. The creature howled, trying to claw Obi-Wan away. Anakin was able to deliver the death blow in the chest.
Obi-Wan swung off the creature and landed, his boots thudding on the dirt. The cries of the tuk'ata mingled with the buzz of lightsabers as the Jedi met their attacks with moves and counter-moves. The tide of the battle was turning. Five tuk'ata lay dead, and two were mortally wounded. Anakin and Obi-Wan were able to team up with Ry-Gaul and Tru first alternately feinting to confuse the creature, and then slicing it into several pieces. Soara and Darra, working together in their usual flawless teamwork, had somehow kept two tuk'ata at bay. Wounded, the two counterattacked, but Darra and Soara were too fast, too agile, and too strong.
Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown
As well as challenge the strike team of Luke Jaina and Ben:
They had disturbed the guardians of the tombs, who were now descending, more than a dozen of them, with a single, driving thought: Kill the intruders.
And the Sith hounds would. Ben realized that almost at once. There were simply too many of them, and they were too strong with the dark side of the Force.
Ben had faced death before, and a peculiar calmness descended on him. He lifted his lightsaber, fixed his gaze with that of the leader, and prepared to slay as many of them as he could before the inevitable. The sudden, absurd thought came to him that they were much, much bigger than he had expected them to be.
Fate of the Jedi: Ascension
Vestara indeed could have set the hounds on them, buying at least enough time to flee back to the Shadow and escape with it. Instead she had protected them all, possibly putting herself in danger to do so.Fate of the Jedi: Ascension
Credits to CV Darthor for making his Bane blog which contains a detailed analysis of the quote, and thanks to Cheth for being probably the only person to actually read it carefully and supplying current retard Darthor the quotes
--- --- ---
I don't want this to be a sort of autistic scaling putting Thon vastly beyond Exile Traya Anakin Obi Wan or Luke. (Credits to Janix for making me realize the faults of the autistic scaling of the last debate
). Instead, this is just supposed to highlight the overall combative competence of Thon. Hssiss are incredibly potent creatures who can definitely pose a challenge to very skilled Jedi combatants who's feats and hype are well beyond Poof, and Thon chase off hordes of them. This is not supposed to be some ironclad scaling, but it definitely is more than enough to put Thon far beyond the lackluster feats and scalings of Yarael Poof. I think this is enough to steelman the notion that Thon is the comfortable combative superior in this fight. C) Bearings on this fight:
One of the things I noticed while reading Xan's post is that nothing from Xan proves Poof's illusions or affect mind in a combative scenario. We have never seen him use his illusions and invisibility in a high-pressure fight. The only time we see him fight he opted into using lightsaber combat and traditional TK rather than displaying his telepathic abilities. So just how high pressure is this fight gonna be? Well we know that Thon likes to directly attack his enemies in fights (rather than reason with them):Well the rules of this fight that both parties agreed to stipulates a starting distance of 5 meters:
Standard forum rules apply, no character limits but try to keep posts concise, 2 weeks time limit, 5 meters starting distance, all characters in their prime, yada yada yada
Extremely Well Written Rules
Well, I want to now draw your attention to the first display of combative competence we got from Thon.
When Oss Wilum fights the pirate/raiders, we saw that the distance between the fighting field and Thon's house is approximately 5 meters:
as you can see, the distance from the entrance to the Hut to the battle field is approximately 5 meters
when Oss was defeated Thon was still standing at the entrance (can see the door on his back)
and then before he was executed, before the thugs can react, he already jumped into the middle:
and then obliterated them with a single display of TK, making Bogga the great (somebody with a massive ego (calls himself the great lol)) concede inferiority instantly:
Since Thon's modus operandi is to confront his enemies directly, he would likely charge at Poof at the start of the fight. As we can see, he is capable of making that distance before the thugs can react and already obliterate them. He would be instantly charging at Poof at the start of this fight and spamming him with melee and force attacks (that we know he is quite adept at). I see no reason to believe that Poof has the time and concentration needed to pull off some serious telepathic attack before getting obliterated.
But can Thon even use a lightsaber??
To cover the most common intuition pump used against Thon, he can indeed use a lightsaber:
POTJ stated that he has ambidexterity (link) which is loosely defined as the 'ability to use the right and left hands equally well".
Thon is trained in lightsaber combat, can hold a lightsaber with all 4 arms, and is a weapon master. I see no reason to put him beyond Poof in lightsaber combat as well.
- The Prodigal Knight
Part 2
December 17th 2023, 9:00 am
III. Telepathy:
This section will be my response to the crux of Xan's case. At the end of this section it should be obvious why any notion of Poof winning this fight using affect mind as the basis is reaching. Let's get started.A) Thon's affect mind abilities:
This section will be trying to demonstrate that Thon, much like Poof, is also a master of telepathy/affect mind. I will posit at the top here that being better at a technique will probably translate to being good at defending against it too. If you dispute this then you would also have the burden to prove Yarael Poof can counter Thon's affect mind abilities. I think it's very charitable for me to say that if Thon is also a master of affect mind, the idea that Poof can win this fight through the technique becomes more and more slim.In Tales of the Jedi Knights of the Old Republic Issue 5, Thon was capable of using telepathy to force Nomi Sunrider to get on his back. In the panels, it was stated that Nomi felt "her resistance mysteriously dissolve" caused by "Thon's command" which "resonate with compelling force". This connection was only broken by Thon losing his focus because he was also "deflecting their [cannon's] salvos with the force" which is what "broke the spell of Thon's hypnotic will".
Context is everything. This happened in an issue specifically addressing Nomi's fear of Thon. Nomi's resistance of Thon is two-fold.
A) The fact that she perceives him as a scary intimidating beast
B) The fact that said beast is trying to force her into using a lightsaber and become a Jedi warrior, which is antithetical to her most fundamental philosophy of respecting her husband's death.
These 2 fears are all reasons for Nomi to be actively resisting following Thon any further, which makes Thon forcing her to come with him using his "hypnotic will" all the more impressive.
I'd like to posit here and make an appeal toward common sense that Nomi's willpower is far stronger than the random thugs that Yarael Poof went to work on using illusions. Not only does it require willpower to use the force, which Nomi was quite adept at, but from a very young age she already displayed impressive showings of battle meditation. As I covered in my first post for Arca Jeth (link), Battle meditation is an act of literally imposing your will on the force in order to change the tides of battles or fights. Nomi was able to do this with zero Jedi training (1,2). This was directly stated when she used battle meditation to free Thon:
Without any Jedi trainings, she can "shape the field of the force that surrounds events". This indicates an immense amount of will power, making Thon's ability to telepathically dominate her using affect mind all the more impressive.
--- --- ---
But it doesn't end there. This will be the first time it is used in a formal debate context so I want to explain it to the best of my abilities. The Star Wars D6 roleplaying game has created a system where each character is applied with a certain count for each of the 3 core pillars of Jedi raw power, alter control and sense. I'll use Thon as an example:
D6 games has a "D" that is supposed to be a dice roll with the possibility from 1 to 6. That means that Thon's maximum force output is 62 control, 73 sense, 68 alter. You might be wondering why I'm saying all of these. Because
For example, attacking the memories of a person in your line of sight that alters their memories for less than a year will cost an alter of 10 and a control of 12:
As the difficulty of the feat increases, the requirement from each value goes up as well. For example, attacking a person in another system will require far more output. There is another aspect as to whether or no characters have the ability to perform something, i.e., whether or not they have access to that power. But as previously mentioned, Thon has access to every Jedi power included in TOTJ Companions, so that's not a concern here. If we turn everything from the power "affect mind" into MAXIMUM, here is the value requirements:
You might notice that the requirements for the alter and control columns are significantly lower than the maximum output of Thon in the respective categories. That's because in D6's mind, Thon can perform what it perceives as the most potent attack possible using affect mind with incredibly low difficulty. That's already incredibly potent for Thon, but Affect Mind, which Xan focuses on, is still only a minor form. The more powerful telepathic attack is control mind, which both has more potent effects than Affect Mind but also requires more raw power from each category. Here are the requirements:
Even the most potent form of attack possible using control mind still requires at best moderate amount of output from Thon.
The game just plainly doesn't perceive any form of telepathic attack as any exertion for Thon... but yet Xan thinks Poof has what it takes to obliterate his mental defenses?
B) Thon's telepathic counters:
Man it just keeps getting better for Thon. On top of his incredible martial skills that allows him to blitz Poof from the start as well as his extremely potent telepathy offense himself, Thon also has a perfect skillset against the mental warfare Xan banks his case on.Battle Meditation and the rise of the straw men:
In my first post I substantiated the notion that battle meditation is a valid form of defense against illusions... and Thon is an absolute master of the technique. In response, Xan stated:
Xan sid:
Since the connection for Thon being able to delete illusions stems from Nomi > Keto >= Poof, and I have elaborated why Keto >= Poof is nonsensical, Darthor has provided no reason to believe that Thon could overcome the illusions of someone as skilled and developed as MASTER YARAEL POOF!!!!!
I'll respond to Poof vs Aleema/Sadow later, but this is a gross strawman of my case. It was NEVER contingent on the idea that Keto is >= Poof in illusions, it was based on the notion that battle meditation, a technique that Thon is an absolute master at, is capable of dispelling illusions. If a relatively inexperienced Nomi Sunrider can do so against a high-level illusionist, then battle meditation is clearly capable of countering illusions. While it's not explicit proof, it's not looking great for Poof when Thon is an absolute master and one of the greatest users of a technique that specifically counters the power Poof is trying to abuse here.
---
Let's remind everybody of my initial argument:
- Spoiler:
Now this is trickier as Poof has both good feats and statements on illusions, and it is more combatively applicable than Jedi mind tricks. However it's still unlikely to work. I take your Yarael Poof and raise you Aleema Keto. Aleema's performances in illusions is probably far better than what Poof displayed, showing far better feats (over some vague quotes from IU commentary). Aleema was able to continuously use beast like illusions to drive men mad (1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9), as well as using illusions to create capital ships (1,2). She has a lot more illusion feats, like using it to subjugate the Tetan systems. I don't think Poof has shown enough to place himself on her level, nevermind above. Now that we have this established, we have Nomi Sunrider, who is capable of using BM to not only destroy her illusions (link) but also use battle meditation to not only destroy Aleema's illusions but also PROBE HER MIND. Note that this is an Aleema who was AMPED by a meditation chamber (1,2).
So now that we know:
A) Battle Meditation can destroy illusions
B) Battle Meditation can probe the minds of creator of illusions
C) Nomi was capable of doing this to a telepath who is AT LEAST on Poof's level
The same Nomi who after all this came to Thon for additional trainings:
Thon was noted to "excel" at battle meditation and was listed with Nomi and Arca:
And was noted alongside them as "some of the greatest practitioners" of the technique:
Odan urr, the creator of the technique, also notes that he is good at it (despite Arca being better):
He also largely taught the technique to Nomi (who is possibly the greatest user of the technique of all time. So illusions likely wouldn't work either.
TL;DR: Battle Meditation is capable of countering illusions and Thon is among the greatest users of Battle Meditation of all time.
--- --- ---
Other variants of Affect Mind:
In his post, Xan raises the possibility of Poof doing the following things to Thon:
Darthor makes a mistake in attempting to detach mind tricks from illusions — they are of the same ability, affect mind.
Xan said:
Illusions are also not the only powers of affect mind;
Any extensions of the affect mind power is based off the ability to fuck with Thon's mind at all. If I prove that Thon can prevent Poof from fucking with his mind, then he can also resist the other abilities.
But even better for Thon, he also has special techniques specifically catered toward countering the other variants you mentioned. Let's remind everybody of all the abilities that Thon has access to:
Xan said:
(1) how does Thon stop Poof from becoming invisible (note that Nomi only dispelled visible illusions), (2) or blinding him (affect mind can block the senses), (3) or obliterating Thon's memories. There is little doubt in my mind that Poof's abilities would work on the likes of Thon.
(1): The problem with this idea is that Poof is not becoming literally invisible, but he is blocking the mind of the opponent from seeing him. So it's still the same ability as Affect Mind really. But from the above list, Thon also has access to the powers Danger sense, combat sense, life detection, life sense, life web, magnify senses, sense force, all of which are powers that gives him an easier time sensing Poof's presence even if he's invisible.
(2): Basically every power in the control section is capable of preventing this. The control abilities are all specifically catered toward maintaining his inner balance and protecting himself. It's unlikely Poof can fuck with his brain AND bypass so many layers of defenses.
(3): It's great that Thon also has this ability, but more than that, he also has powers such as short term memory enhancement that will be great for preventing Poof from going to work on his memories.
--- --- ---
Raw Power:
Beyond just specific telepathic expertise, raw power is used to create mental barriers as well:
The deep subconscious of a Force-sensitive person is shielded by a protective barrier which prevents another Force wielder from penetrating his or her inner mind. This shield pushes violently back at an intruder, sending him or her stumbling back. This "shield" is an involuntary defense mechanism maintained by every Force sensitive person.It is one reliable way to determine which people might have the potential to become Jedi. The magnitude of the backlash generated by the shield depends on the character's strength in the Force. A person who is merely Force-sensitive will shove the intruder back by a meter. Someone with actual Force skills will produce a more intense reaction. Those with little training will send the intruder reeling back across the room. Someone who is well-trained, or who has a great deal of raw talent in the Force, might actually hurl an intruder across the room.
- Tales of the Jedi SourceBook
The strength of a character's shield "depends on the character's strength in the force", a phrase typically used to describe a character's raw power. This is consistent with every depiction of the power. In D6, the control difficulty of applying Affect Mind depends on the control count of the victim, keep in mind that control is an aspect of raw power:
Similarly, in the D20 version, Affect Mind is opposing the "will save" of the opponent, basically meaning you need to overpower the will power of your subject in order to affect their mind (which makes sense intuitively speaking as well):
As we all know, willpower is directly linked with raw power:
Plagueis understood, too, that there were no powers beyond his reach; none he couldn't master through an effort of will. If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave, or had locked them away in holocrons that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.
Darth Plagueis
Xan himself has conceded that Ambria is a more impressive act of raw power than Poof's dying act, and in general nothing in his post debunks the fact that Thon was compared with Yoda in raw power and generally treated as a very powerful force user. Thon's raw power will also contribute to his mental defenses against Poof--- --- ---
Thon's Telepathic Counters sum-up
To conclude, here's what Thon has to counter Affect Mind of Yarael Poof:
- Vastly Superior Martial abilities that he can use to spam Poof
- Expertise of Affect Mind, has showings that shit on what Poof has actually displayed, D6 game thinks the most potent attack possible using control mind will only take moderate amounts of output from him
- Among the greatest battle meditation expertise that can be used to counter illusions
- Specific abilities that counter variants of affect mind
- Xan-conceded insane raw power that can be used to create mental barriers
Do you really think Poof can take this fight through telepathy? To that I say:
C) Poof's telepathic capabilities:
This will be the section where I finally engage with the bulk of Xan's arguments. I don't mean to deny that Poof is extremely proficient at affect mind, but the notion that he is powerful enough to abuse it against Thon is... reaching to say at least. Let's get started.Poof's lackluster combative performances:
I want to preface my debunking by asking how far we we going to allow Xan to take Poof using random hype quotes? I mean when he says stuff like this:
Xan said:
Affect mind‘s potency doesn’t necessarily scale with the raw power more than skill. Yarael Poof is a powerful Jedi (1, 2), but it is largely his standing as the “consummate master” of affect mind that sets him apart. Consummate refers to skill and training, which are reflected by Obi-Wan’s title as the consummate hero (despite being less powerful than Yoda or Anakin) and Dooku’s title as a consummate duelist (again despite being less powerful than Yoda or Anakin).
It's very important to remember that the examples I gave are:
Abeloth: an immortal entity who would probably obliterate Poof with a wink
Novel Vitiate: a guy who absorbed a planet + 8000 Sith before growing for 1000 years, who also has a special aptitude toward telepathy
Unuthul: a dude who is operating constantly on the power of trillions of killiks who also is super potent at telepathy
and a tag team of Obi Wan/Anakin/Mace Windu
Do we really expect Poof to win a telepathic battle against Vitiate? Abeloth? Unuthul? We think that Anakin/Obi Wan/Mace are gonna fail to TP a random NFU but authors are gonna let Poof telepathically dominate a powerful Jedi master?
Are we really gonna stand by the side and watch Xan use a quote saying Poof is a consummate illusionist and perform several large scale logical leaps to put Poof beyond the most powerful force users in the mythos who's combative performance in telepathy will absolutely shit on his?
Ask yourself in pure good faith if you really think Poof is gonna be written to win telepathic battles with Valk, Abeloth, Unuthul, etc.
--- --- ---
So the purpose of this section then is really to examine Poof's combative showings. Let's look into Poof vs the rebel group that acquired the Infant of Shaa for example. Notice that Poof is attempting to maximize the efficiency of dealing with these rebels because every second he spends fighting them is a second that the Infant of Shaa can explode. So this gives us the most direct insight on Poof's combative showing:
How do we rationalize this type of performance? An Abeloth tier + telepath choosing to use lightsabers rather than telepathy when every second might lead to Coruscant's destruction?
Why doesn't he make himself invisible to them? Why doesn't he instantly obliterate their memories? Why doesn't he telepathically dominate them and make them his goons? Why doesn't he use a Jedi mind trick on them to instantly end the fight? When you hype up characters to this extent using random power quotes and presumptions made from IU accounts, the characters need to have the feats to back up that kind of hype. What am I supposed to believe here? Is lightsaber combat more efficient than Poof's telepathy? And if so, why should I believe he can use his Affect Mind to contain Thon's melee onslaught? I mean as a reminder, when Thon is similarly faced with a gang of thugs, here's what he did (CLICK).
The power of perspective:
The first thing I noticed about the most important quote used by Xan is the phrase "reportedly". (link). According to the oxford dictionary, reportedly is defined as: "according to what some say (used to express the speaker's belief that the information given is not necessarily true).". The Collins dictionary backs this up by saying "If you say that something is reportedly true, you mean that someone has said that it is true, but you have no direct evidence of it.". While not directly stated, both Merriam Webster and Cambridge Dictionary defines reportedly as something that is relied upon the commentary from others, and possibly rumors. Merriam Webster: "according to report or rumors", and Cambridge: "according to what people say about something:".
Now I'll be charitable here and agree that the quote is clearly supposed to convey that Poof is very good at affect mind, but I think you also need to be charitable and agree that the author intentionally put in the word reportedly, and it is supposed to somewhat signify that the notion that Poof can literally make himself invisible to Jedi knights is possibly overblown and exaggerated from facts.
Similarly, Mace Windu saying Poof is wiser than him is designed partly to show the fact that he is humble as well. I am once again willing to say that it does indicate Poof is incredibly wise, but then we shouldn't take Mace's obvious attempt to be humble as definitive proof that Poof is just better than him at telepathy.
The fact that you're banking your case on taking these quotes at face value is a massive red flag. But let's dig deeper.
Affect Mind Mechanisms:
While reading the post I noticed that Xan has an obsession with proving the notion that Affect Mind is related solely to training and experience and not raw power. Let's go on a journey to examine his evidence:
Xan said:
Affect mind‘s potency doesn’t necessarily scale with the raw power more than skill. Yarael Poof is a powerful Jedi (1, 2), but it is largely his standing as the “consummate master” of affect mind that sets him apart. Consummate refers to skill and training, which are reflected by Obi-Wan’s title as the consummate hero (despite being less powerful than Yoda or Anakin) and Dooku’s title as a consummate duelist (again despite being less powerful than Yoda or Anakin).
The pre-assumption of this argument is that being a consummate master sets Poof apart in the first place. I agree that Consummate refers to skill and training, but you are assuming that being consummate at affect mind means that Poof is the ultimate user of the technique. Alternatively, it can also be true that Poof has the most trainings and skills, but isn't the ultimate user of the technique due to the lack of raw power. This argument is based on a false premise, and thus doesn't prove that affect mind solely has to do with technique and not raw power.
Baseless Bullshit Counter: 6
Xan said:
Yarael Poof is also straight up better than Mace when it comes to "mental abilities", and Mace says Poof has greater wisdom in this area, implying this related to experience, knowledge, and practice more than it is power.
Again, the assumption here is that Poof being wiser than Mace is indicative that he is straight up better, which I disagree with. If Poof is wiser than Mace but Mace is still superior telepathically, then that is proof that affect mind is correlated with raw power.
Also:
How good is Mace at telepathy again? Is he better than Satal Keto? Proof that he is? Why is being better than him impressive anyways?
Xan said:
Poof is predominantly wanked for his skill, and his force healing are further evidence of that. We should conclude that it is Poof's skill and mastery that give him supremacy in affect mind where more powerful Jedi (Mace) falter. As such, the comparisons of power that Darthor invokes aren't very relevant, leaving it very plausible that affect mind's potency scales up with skill more so than power.
You didn't prove this at all. You baselessly assumed that Poof is the ultimate master of affect mind, and then used that assumption to prove that affect mind doesn't have to do with raw power, and then used that to justify Poof being the ultimate master of affect mind despite lacking raw power. Circular reasoning at it's finest.
I will respond later on as to why being the consummate master isn't indicative of definitive supremacy.
---
In your post you're a big fan of proving that Affect Mind is a power that requires Alter Control AND Sense. These are aspects of a Jedi's raw power. The fact that your own argument is that Affect Mind requires a large amount of raw power (and thus why Poof is impressive) means that using raw power to scale telepathic aptitude is a totally legitimate methodology.
--- --- ---
Xan said:
Darthor makes a mistake in attempting to detach mind tricks from illusions — they are of the same ability, affect mind.
That's not a mistake, they are separate variants of affect mind after all. You need to prove the skills are transferrable. But even if you can, that's not bad for my case because it proves that Thon's mental defense can defend against both abilities at the same time.
It is incredibly funny that you attempted to skip over the part of that passage that is bad for your case though:
In the very same passage that you cited, it was noted that species with "highly organized mental facilities" are "naturally immune to mind tricks". I wonder if a highly trained Jedi master who is incredibly potent at telepathy himself is capable of defending against mind tricks? Just a thought.
-
Xan said:
Furthermore, the abilities attributed to Poof (invisibility and illusions) vastly outstrip the level of Jedi mind tricks shown in the movie. I find it plausible that the consummate master of this ability, who has spent his entire life perfecting it, would not be limited by the shortcomings of lesser practitioners. So with respect to Darthor’s point here,
It's not just the movies though. The very passage that you cited noted that species like the Hutts are naturally immune even without force trainings. Remember that connections with the force gives you a stronger mental barrier as substantiated above.
-
Xan said:
…, I see no reason why “weak-minded” couldn’t be gauged relative to the caster of the mind trick or the potency of it. It seems only natural that the applicable range of an ability would increase with the skill of the practitioner.
But the design of the ability is centered around it's application on the weak-minded... The movies, which is the absolute canon of Star Wars, was very clear that it is an ability used only on weak-minded. Most normies will think so, and so will most authors. It doesn't detract from my original intent that if 99% of authors write a fight between Poof and Thon, they won't think Poof can win through Jedi mind-tricks due to the predominant narrative that it is an ability used only on weak-minded people.
--- --- ---
Also, if you're separating raw power from telepathic potency... why is the ability to mind-trick Yoda impressive? Why is Yoda above Thon telepathically? Citation that he is? Any intuition pumps on the subject would concede the separation between raw power and affect mind. And if you agree with me that raw power is connected to willpower which is connected to Affect Mind, then my examples of Vitiate/Abeloth/Anakin Obi Wan + Mace Windu wins me this point regardless.
--- --- ---
Poof vs Sadow/Aleema Keto:
This is the only connection made to Thon. Let's debunk it.
Xan said:
Naga Sadow's illusions are literally taking on the Jedi Order. And Poof is put > Naga Sadow in the very same book (see above). That is further proof that affect mind works on Force Users, btw. Importantly, I am extremely dubious of any claim that would attempt to put Aleema Keto above a Dark Lord of the Sith. Note that the very scan Darthor provides says Keto's illusions are "little help". Contrary to this, Sadow's illusions are the deciding factor in the battle between the Sith and the Jedi Order.
- To start with, Thon was not a part of the Jedi Order Sadow was taking on at all. At best you can argue that this argument caps Memit Nadill, Ooroo, and padawan Odan, none of whom has nearly the amount of hype and feats that Thon has under his disposal. At its absolute best this argument is not binding whatsoever for Thon.
- 'Consummate' doesn't preclude the existence of a superior. Like you noted yourself in your post, Count Dooku is stated to be a consummate duelist, yet canonically both Mace and Yoda are stated to be above him as dueling (link)Similarly, I don't think you would want to defend in a debater's capacity that Dooku's skills are superior to that of the likes of GM Luke, Outlander, etc.? But that's not good enough. Even in context that are not in Star Wars, consummate doesn't suggest any notion that they are the BEST in a certain field, no questions asked. To go through the definitions:
Oxford: showing a high degree of skill and flair;
Merriam Webster: extremely skilled and accomplished
Brittanica: very good or skillful
Consummate doesn't necessarily mean perfection. And in the context of Star Wars, it definitely doesn't preclude the existence of exceptions who are superior. Being the consummate illusionist doesn't necessarily mean Poof is beyond Keto/Sadow
- Even if I allow that Poof is superior to Sadow at illusions, that doesn't preclude the possibility that Sadow is beyond Poof with his meditation chamber which increases his powers "a thousand fold in every direction" (link)
Proof that Sadow was using his meditation chamber:
- Spoiler:
Poof's supremacy to Sadow doesn't mean he's above a Sadow who's powers are amplified "a thousand fold in every direction", which includes illusions. At his absolute best, Poof still doesn't scale to Sadow's illusions taking on armies.
--- --- ---
Satal Keto's attempt to undermine Aleema's contributions to emphasize his own notwithstanding, this is completely irrelevant since you didn't prove Poof's supremacy to meditation sphere!Naga Sadow at all.
Xan said:
Note that the very scan Darthor provides says Keto's illusions are "little help". Contrary to this, Sadow's illusions are the deciding factor in the battle between the Sith and the Jedi Order.
-
Xan said:
In fact, there is no precedent for Poof's illusions to ever fail, unlike Naga Sadow and Aleema Keto
???????
Baseless Bullshit Counter: 7
Poof's illusions never failed because he has never been in the circumstances Sadow and Keto were in. Keto's illusions were broken by the super powerful Nomi Sunrider (another consummate master of battle meditation??) and Sadow's illusions were broken by Gav breaking his concentration:
You can't use Poof's lack of failures to substantiate anything because he was never in the situations in which Sadow and Keto failed in.
But if you are willing to accept that methodology:
1. Technically Bogga the Hutt has never failed to telepathically dominate anybody either. He never tried, but Poof never tried doing illusions while being bombed or doing illusions against Sunrider's battle meditation either.
2. Thon has never failed to survive containing the infant of Shaa after being stabbed in the head. He also never tried... but again... neither did Poof.
3. Since we're having so much fun, Poof has all the incentive to sense the presence of Sidious and Plagueis, teleport to their location, and obliterate them with a thought... but he didn't. We can only assume that he can't. Oss wilum has never failed to teleport to Sidious and Plagueis location and obliterate them with a heartbeat. So great reason to assume Oss Wilum is also beyond Poof.
-
Xan said:
What we DO know is that Poof can use his abilities on his fellow Jedi and colleagues (again, more than likely this includes fellow council members), that he is > Naga Sadow who can make his forces appear "innumerable" to take on the Jedi Order, and that he is the consummate master of the ability that bridges the three aspects of force powers.
Baseless Bullshit Counter: 8
You have not proven any of this at all. You didn't prove that Poof is > A Naga Sadow whose illusions are amplified a thousand fold by the meditation sphere. You didn't prove that he is above Aleema Keto because consummate doesn't preclude the existence of superiors.
None of what you said engaged with the fact that both Keto and Sadow has combative illusions feat that shits on what Poof has actually displayed. In a vacuum of direct evidence of superiority, I opt to take actual feats and showings over what "reportedly" happened.
--- --- ---
Poof's abilities to go to work on his fellow Jedi:
The best for last, this is the central point made by Xan in this debate.
Xan said:
Indeed, Poof is explicitly stated to be capable of using mind tricks/affect mind on his “fellow Jedi” and colleagues. As Poof was a council member, these fellow Jedi likely refer to other council members, and at the very least, other Jedi masters. Taken literally, Poof should be able to make himself invisible to the likes of Yoda. At the very least, this is evidence that Poof’s abilities do work on force users.
Your quote is incredibly vague. There are thousands of ways I can abuse the vagueness but the quotes fail to prove 3 main things necessary for Poof to have any advantage in a fight:
1. Poof obviously isn't going to cause serious damages to his colleagues, which means that this doesn't prove he has the ability to cause very serious damages using affect mind. For example, this doesn't prove he has the ability to obliterate their memories or block their senses, because obviously the ability to cause more damage also is more difficult. At best this proves Poof's abilities to cause minor harms to force users.
2. This doesn't prove Poof's ability to use his powers in a combative scenario. In a scenario where the other force user would be actively trying to detect his mental assaults and be spamming him with melee attacks like Thon is going to do here. His ability to use his powers in a non-combative scenario has no bearings whatsoever on his ability to do so in the middle of a fight.
3. This doesn't prove he can bypass the active mental barriers of force users. Force users can create mental barriers to defend against telepathic attacks if they are actively concentrated on defending against mental assaults. Bane did this against Zannah by using his active mental barrier to defeat her spell of madness:
“Bane sensed the attack, bracing himself. He had encouraged Zannah's training in Sith sorcery, knowing she might very well use it against him one day. If it turned out he wasn't strong enough to survive, then he wasn't worthy of being the Dark Lord of the Sith. That didn't mean he was unprepared, however. Dark side sorcery was complex; it attacked the psyche in ways that were difficult to explain and even more difficult to defend against. Bane had no talent for it, yet he had done his best to study the techniques. What he learned was that the only real counter was the victim's strength of will.”
......
“Bane knew it was a trick; the beasts weren'tvreal. They were just figments of his imagination born from the repressed memories of his childhood, his greatest fears manifested in physical form. But he had conquered these fears long ago. He had turned his fear of his abusive father into anger and hate-the tools that had given him the strength to endure and eventually escape his life on Apatros. He knew how to defeat these demons, and he struck back. Unleashing a primal scream, he channeled his terror into pure rage and lashed out with the dark side. It tore through the swarm in a burst of searing violet light, utterly obliterating them.”
Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil
The Jedi Poof attack would not be actively preparing themselves and resist telepathically like Bane is doing. ---
That's not to get in the speculative nature of this feat, how it is based entirety on an event that we never saw ourselves. For example, we have no idea if he succeeded. I can enjoy tanking nukes, but that doesn't mean I am capable of doing so. I know this sounds like I'm grasping on straws, but the fact remains that at the very best, he proved that Poof can maybe cause minor damages to the passive mental barriers of Jedi masters in a non-combative scenario
IV. Other stuff:
All the other stuff that's not included in the previous parts.A) Force Healing:
Similarly as before, Xan failed to prove Poof's ability to heal himself in the middle of a battle. Even if Poof can heal himself from fatal injuries, that doesn't mean he can do that while defending against Thon spamming him in melee. Thon is not about to sit by the side and allow him to heal himself. This is irrelevant.B) Master of Raw Power:
Xan said:
Affect mind is further noted to be a power that bridges the three central skills of Jedi force powers: Control, Sense, and Alter.
Jedi vs Sith: Essential Guide to the Force wrote:
The Jedi regard their skills as rooted in three areas: Control, Sense, and Alter.
Jedi vs Sith: Essential Guide to the Force wrote:
The power known as Alter Mind bridges all these skill areas. Through it a Jedi can project her perception of reality into the mind of another, or an illusion or conclusion that she needs the other to hold as true. This is a most magnificent and useful power, but it is also one fraught with danger.
Note that this has massive implications for Yarael Poof. Poof is the consummate master of the power that bridges all areas, meaning his proficiency with each skillset ought to be extremely high. And since these skillsets from the basis of force powers, Poof ought to generally be extremely skilled. Indeed, Poof is capable of healing himself from a stab to (or at least next to) one of his brains (many thanks to Ghost of Grievous for providing these scans in his Yarael Poof RT).
Ironic. He could save others from death, but not himself. SS - Arena of the Unknowns: Thon (Darthor) vs Yarael Poof (XannotZan) 3344068304 Moreover, Poof is incredibly talented in a power he doesn't even specialize in, and one that is explicitly rare.
Jedi vs Sith: Essential Guide to the Force wrote:
As with other Force powers, some Jedi have a natural ability as healers; such Jedi have never been common, and their kindred guard them carefully.
And to tie it all together, Force healing is listed as one of the powers that Control, Sense, and Alter form the basis of.
and that he is the consummate master of the ability that bridges the three aspects of force powers.
Baseless Bullshit Counter: 9
This is not baseless, but you did baselessly assume that this is important at all. Affect Mind and Force Healing are indeed abilities that bridge all 3 aspects of raw power. so are a bunch of other Jedi powers, all of which Thon has access to. To visually guide this:
These are all abilities that bridges all 3 aspects, and Thon has access to all of them.
Even better though, some of these abilities requires way more of each aspect of raw power than Affect Mind. Force storm, dopplegangers, and Transfer life, for example, requires a heroic amount of each of the abilities, while affect mind, at it's most potent form, requires a very tiny portion of Thon's maximum output (as substantiated in section 3.1). Thon having access to all these abilities that bridges all 3 aspects, which requires far far more from each aspect than affect mind/force healing, definitely turns this argument on your ass.
***** PLEASE READ *****
But that's not good enough. Battle meditation is also an ability that bridges all 3 area, as proven by the image above. Thon is one of the greatest users of battle meditation (along with Nomi and Arca) (CLICK). So Thon is also one of the biggest experts on an ability that bridges all 3 areas, that is certainly not unique to Poof.
- The Prodigal Knight
Conclusion
December 17th 2023, 9:01 am
V. Conclusion:
If you're still reading at this point, you're single-handedly giving value to this hobby, so thank you. I ramble a lot in this post so I want to give a comprehensive conclusion (unlike my last short post)A) Poof vs Thon's Paths to Victory
How do we expect them to win? Over the course of our openers, we have offered methods of victory for both Thon and Poof, let's go through them:Thon:
1. Destroying him in melee. Thon is a weapon master who is devoted to combat, and has drove off massive hordes of Hssiss, Hssiss, receiving impressive scalings from Exile and Tuk'ata, are definitely capable of challenging very skilled force users in combat.
2. Destroying him with TK which he can use to "deflect their [laser cannon's] salvos" and obliterate an entire pirate gang in a single TK output
3. Hitting him with a WoL which he can use to "easily repel" Sith spirits that "threatened to consume an entire sector". He can also cut him off from the force.
4. Use his various other abilities that he has access to because "Thon has access to all Jedi powers listed in this book, plus many others as yet undiscovered". This includes creating dopplegangers to confuse Poof, obliterate him with TK kill or a force storm, or use some other esoteric ability that the Jedi has yet to discover.
5. Use his battle meditation which allows him to "visualize a desired outcome in battle" and impose his will on the force and make it real. Similar reality manipulated used in combat is when Anakin "decided to win" and "decision became reality" which mirrors the way Arca beat the marauders early in his career. Thon is "one of the greatest users of battle meditation" along with Nomi Arca and arguably Oppo.
6. Why not... use his affect mind which allowed him to telepathically dominate Nomi and perform the most potent attack D6 deems possible from control mind with moderate difficulty
Poof:
1. Affect mind
2. Nothing else??
Other things to note:
1. You might argue that Affect Mind has a bunch of variants, like illusions or memory obliterating, but those are all contingent on the base ability, affect mind, which you yourself pointed out in your post. That's like me saying stabbing Poof, swiping at him with his claws or biting Poof are separate paths to victory for Thon. It's all just melee wins. So this doesn't work.
2. A lot of Poof's abilities are speculative. We never saw him TP Jedi, or make himself invisible. We have seen Thon obliterate entire gangs with a single TK, we did see him deflect laser cannons, we did see him TP dominate Nomi, we do know he drove off Hssiss gangs, we do know he WoLed Ambria, etc. We haven't seen Poof do anything other than wild speculation
3. Poof has NO COMBATIVE PERFORMANCES AT ALL. All of his "feats" mentioned in Xan's post comes from NON-COMBATIVE SCENARIOS. We have no clue if he can actually do any of Xan's assertions while being actively attacked by Thon.
C) TL;DR:
1. Tales of the Jedi supremacy does fit CC optimization, but Xan's entire era argument is based on applying faulty era stereotypes and ignore character nuances. It also ignores narrative intent which definitely puts Thon, somebody compared with Yoda in power, as somebody who will at least be a councilor in PT.2. TOTJ is very combatively optimized, and gets the best of both knowledge and combat.
3. Thon is a weapon master, who are the "greatest of Jedi warriors", as well as a combative superior to Hssiss, who can "humble" an Exile who's feats shits on Poof's. Hssiss are also superior to Tuk'atas who can regularly challenge force users with feats far beyond Poof's combative showings
4. Thon is an incredibly potent telepath, capable of telepathically dominate Nomi and perform the most potent forms of control/affect mind with moderate ease
5. Thon is very potent at battle meditation and other control abilities, which counters affect mind. He also has very potent raw power that can be used to form mental barriers
6. Poof's combative showings do not match somebody with the level of telepathy that Xan is asserting
7. Poof's telepathic feats are very speculative based on fallible perspectives
8. Poof's illusions are not above Sadow/Keto, but even if they are, he doesn't scale to meditation sphere!Sadow who's powers are amplified a thousand fold
9. Poof can at best cause minor damages to the passive mental barriers of Jedi masters in a non-combative scenario.
10. Poof's force heals are useless, and so is the entire argument about bridging all 3 aspects of raw power (which Thon is better at doing)
D) Bullshit Xan expects you to believe:
Somebody who is compared with Yoda in raw power will be anything below a councilor if put in the PT
Poof can bypass the active barrier of somebody who can perform the most potent attack of control mind with moderate difficulty
An Abeloth+ telepath will opt into lightsaber combat in an actual fight situation
Poof is superior to Naga Sadow's illusions amplified a thousand fold
Poof's ability to play party tricks on fellow councilors translate to the ability to bypass their active mental barriers in an actual combative scenario
5 core assertions on his part that can be debunked simply by intuition pumps, add that with his other 9 baseless bullshit arguments from the relatively short post...
Yeah nothing changes. Thon still obliterates. Who wins?
THON THON THON THON THON THON THON
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum