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Darth Durin's Baneling
Darth Durin's Baneling

SS - Arena of the Unknowns: Cin Drallig (Xan) vs Jaina Solo (hellothere) Empty SS - Arena of the Unknowns: Cin Drallig (Xan) vs Jaina Solo (hellothere)

July 27th 2023, 3:44 pm
No character limit, two week character limit, standard forum rules apply.

SS - Arena of the Unknowns: Cin Drallig (Xan) vs Jaina Solo (hellothere) Empty The Case for Drallig

August 18th 2023, 9:11 pm
Before I upload my post begins, I just want to say that I am uploading this to SI a day after the post was due. It was first sent in the discord via a google doc. I will make some slight edits in the SI rendition, but the arguments/points themselves will not change.

My Padawans hit harder than you!” -Cin Drallig to Anakin Skywalker, RotS VG

For those unfamiliar with my character, Cin Drallig, I would recommend reading the following, brief introduction. Otherwise, you can skip straight ahead to section one, where I dive into Drallig’s hype.

During the prequel era, Cin Drallig served on Coruscant as battlemaster and head of security for the Jedi Order. He was briefly featured in Revenge of the Sith as one of Anakin’s victims during the sacking of the Jedi Temple. Contrary to his brief clash of sabers with Anakin in the movie, the Revenge of the Sith video game features Drallig in a lengthy, hard fought battle with the Sith Lord. Historically, the drastic difference in performance has motivated people to distinguish between the two iterations of Drallig – movie Drallig being not that impressive, and game Drallig being a rival to (arguably) the best fighter in the PT era. You can see this divisive meta in the 2020 Cin Drallig respect thread. OOU, Cin Drallig is the self-insert of Nick Gillard, the acclaimed stunt coordinator of the prequel trilogy. As you might notice, Cin Drallig is simply Nick Gillard’s name backward, without the K at the end of Nick.

Drallig hype

It is my intention to reconcile Drallig’s VG feats with his G-canon, movie self. I find no reason to pretend as if there are two wildly different versions of the same character, barring cases where that sort of thing is intended (Outlander, and even then, gameplay trailers show him as a Jedi Knight). The easy, and apparently common thing to do is to outright dismiss video game feats in favor of the movie. However, I believe that doing so ignores the game as an extension of the movie; the relationship between the video game and movie is far more nuanced than what one might be initially led to believe.


Edited: The "Revenge of the Sith" video game (RotS VG) stands out as "the most authentic Jedi action experience yet seen in a video game." The developers meticulously studied "some of the early Episode III fight choreography" to ensure that the game's combat sequences mirrored the film's intensity. Nick Gillard, a key figure behind the game, expressed a fervent desire to ensure that the "moves and fights" in the game were "as real as we can to the movie" and that the construction of the fights would be "pretty much the same on this game" as they were in the movie. While the game "follows the plot of the film very closely," it also "focuses" and "expands" on the central characters, recreating "action scenes blow for blow and room for room." This dedication to authenticity was further cemented by the game's close collaboration "with George Lucas from early on," aiming to "expand on the film in ways that stay true to his original vision." The developers' ambition was clear: they wanted to "create that level of authenticity that is directly from the film" and "to tell intricate parts of the Star Wars film Episode III." This commitment to authenticity led to a seamless integration where the "game and the movie are one cohesive unit," offering the "most authentic, most realistic Star Wars experience that we're able to create and deliver." This monumental task was a collaborative effort, involving "everyone at all of the Lucasfilm companies." The developers even met with "George Lucas...before he even finished writing the first draft of the script, and his involvement continued... into post-production." I would read all of the scans above for a fuller picture, but I think this is quite representative.

All of this is said despite the game going beyond some elements of the movie.


Clearly, the video game is held in high regard. Attentive readers might have noticed something in this particular scan:


Note, “Our game runs the full spectrum from re-creating action sequences blow for blow and room for room, to delivering the full impact of sequences that are just introduced, or hinted at, by the film.” Anakin’s clash with Drallig certainly counts as something that was “introduced” or “hinted at”, much like the broader sacking/raid of the Jedi Temple, which also received its own level.

We’ll come back to talk about RotS VG canonicity. For now, let's take a look at the actual hype that the video game gives to Drallig.

Tier 9

Other than the VG fight being unrepresented by the movie, people have concerns with its implications. Should Cin Drallig, an almost irrelevant side character, be capable of being a tier 9 warrior, they might say tier 9 loses its significance, for it was only through embracing the dark side that Anakin, the most prodigious Jedi (possibly) ever, could gain this ultimate power.


On Yoda’s part, it demanded the culmination of 900 years of training, supreme control, and the channeling of the entire Jedi order to reach this level. The Banite Sith dedicated generations of Sith evolution, deceit, and mastery to ultimately give rise to the one who would face the entire might of the Jedi order — and win. Unfortunately for me, Cin Drallig lacks the intuition, wisdom, and prophetic nature of those in tier 9. I believe this is all that is needed to dispel any notion of a tier 9 Cin Drallig, regardless of what the game shows us; grander and more fundamental aspects of Star Wars preclude what the game seems to suggest. I say fundamental, in that the very things that make Anakin, Yoda, and Darth Sidious so special are what make them tier 9. Drallig is simply not that special.

That being said, however strong the argument against something is, it does not magically render the argument FOR something entirely meaningless. For example, the metaphysical — and even physical — domination Anakin is described to wield against Dooku in the RotS novel is nowhere to be found within the movie.


Indeed, the movie shows us an incredibly even exchange, with the deciding factor being a momentary slip-up rather than persistent and chronic beat down on Anakin’s part. Nonetheless, the expression of Anakin’s physicality must mean something; after all, the novel was line edited by the man himself! I assert that these sorts of feats ought to be considered in so far as they do not upset the more fundamental truths of Star Wars. Under this sort of paradigm, novel Anakin’s brute domination of Dooku is an expression of the extent to which movie Anakin’s intuition has allowed him to outstrip the vast powers of Count Dooku.


In this way, the novel’s take on things is not outright dismissed, and G-canon remains untouched. OOU, Gillard believes his self-insert would “cream” Anakin, but as we all know, that does not happen.


In my opinion, this is an instance of unadulterated wank being toned down to fit the needs of a more fundamental aspect of Star Wars. In other words, it is a case of Gillard actively adopting my paradigm. As I continue to explore Cin Drallig, how I intend to apply this methodology ought to become clear for my dear readers. If not, fret not, for I will explain.

While perhaps not my strongest piece of evidence for Drallig’s supremacy, there is a moment in the fight where Drallig is able to not only block Anakin’s push, but actually Force push Anakin, in a manner that could only be described as ragdolling.


At the very least, this sort of TK is very similar in kind to Dooku’s ragdoll of Kenobi aboard the IH. And it is certainly a far more impressive display of telekinetic ability than what Obi-Wan demonstrates against Anakin on Mustafar. Keeping in mind that the VG was made with the script, it almost seems an intentional choice to have Drallig demonstrate superior TK against Anakin, than Obi-Wan.


It should be mentioned that Gillard seems to envision not only dueling supremacy for his character, but also Force supremacy. Drallig is said to have given himself over entirely to the living force, and is described in the RotS VG guide in ways extremely reminiscent of Qui-Gon Jinn’s wisdom in TPM, and of Obi-Wan in RotS.


Edited: Cin Drallig and Obi-Wan are both exemplary figures within the Jedi Order, each embodying the principles and teachings that define the Jedi way. Drallig, having "given himself over completely to the will of the living force," is a beacon of "patience, focus, and direction." His dueling style is a testament to his character, being both "focused and deliberate" while simultaneously bursting with energy. On the other hand, Obi-Wan, described as "calm, focused, and controlled," showcases a demeanor that is "focused, well-balanced, and resilient." He is the Jedi that "the great Qui-Gon always thought [he] might be," representing the "epitome of a classically trained Jedi Master." His abilities are further accentuated by his "focus powers, which are all about speed and precision." Much like Drallig, Obi-Wan too gives "himself over to the living force," highlighting the deep connection and similarities between these two revered Jedi Masters.

Seeing as Gillard was there for the philosophies of TPM, and seeing as Gillard blatantly makes Drallig a supreme duelist, it is not particularly a stretch to say that he adopted the supreme Force philosophy meta, and gave it to his own character. Of course, we have a duty to reconcile it with greater and more fundamental aspects of Star Wars — one of them being the rareness and uniqueness of Jedi like Qui-Gon Jinn in the PT era. Again, should a random irrelevant Jedi be privy to the most exclusive of abilities, it loses the value conveyed to us by the movie. However, it does suggest, and this seems consistent with Drallig’s ragdoll feat, an intent on Gillard’s part to make Drallig a supreme force user.

In addition to what Drallig’s fight with Anakin in the VG itself suggests, we can compare the very nature of the fight with other instances. The video game features a clash between Mace Windu and Anakin Skywalker, in which Anakin emerges victorious.


Notably, this version of Anakin has yet to embrace the dark side, evidenced by his stun ability, instead of the dark side lightning ability.


Furthermore, the game specifically says that Anakin gives himself to the dark side only after Mace Windu is killed.


On the other hand, Cin Drallig is undoubtedly fighting a dark side Anakin. To dispel any notion of the RotS VG not considering the dark side a significant amp, we can turn to A) the very person who was brought in to consult the saber mechanics of the game B) the PRIMA guide for the game. Indeed, the game features fury moves for Anakin, literally giving Anakin stronger move sets predicated on his growing fury.


The Windu vs Anakin and Drallig vs Vader fight seems to have been designed with the amp of the dark side in mind. The implication is all too obvious: Drallig can fight a stronger Anakin than Mace Windu can. Notably, Mace Windu is able to duel with Darth Sidious, and this much is still implied to be the case in the VG, down to the very happenings of the fight such that Windu winds up pointing his saber at Sidious on the ground – the scene from the movie is inserted into the game. Sure, you could say that Drallig is just bordering on tier 9 even closer than Mace Windu is, but it doesn’t seem like the intent was for anybody to be closer to tier 9 than Windu is. If it was, then I imagine Obi-Wan Kenobi would be a much better candidate, seeing as he gets explicit supremacy statements in the RotS novel and from Stover.


Since Drallig performs better than Mace, but cannot be somewhere between tier 8 and tier 9, Drallig could only be tier 9, if we considered only this argument. Again, I would not like to assert that Drallig is indeed tier 9, for doing so seems not only bad faith but a blatant demonstration of ignorance for Star Wars. The previous argument serves only to show that Drallig has quite compelling arguments to actually be tier 9; said arguments are simply less compelling than the argument to NOT be tier 9. So if not tier 9, where else?

Tier 8

The next tier down is the obvious consideration. Since we disqualified Drallig from tier 9 due to lacking the special something that put Anakin/Yoda/Sheev there, we should seek to do the same with tier 8. To that end, I believe we ought to contrast tier 7 characters and tier 8 characters. Consider the tier 8 duo, Mace Windu and Obi-Wan Kenobi.


Both of these renowned Jedi have plenty of statements putting them at the very top of the Jedi order, but statements of general supremacy over other Jedi are shared by the likes of the B-team, Shaak Ti, and of course, Cin Drallig.


Unless we are willing to give many more Jedi the tier 8 hype, it seems that there has to be a distinct difference between Kenobi/Mace and the rest. For the purposes of the story, the B-team needs to be quite competent, as they are being sent to capture Darth Sidious himself. But, the movie also cannot cram impressive showings for everyone. What we do know of the B-team is that they are Jedi masters, which even without the statements of supremacy, confers upon them a special standing compared to the rest of the order. But that alone does not distinguish Mace Windu from the rest of the council. Sure, he talks a little more than the rest of them do, but does that alone suggest such a big difference such that Windu could survive and almost defeat Sidious when the rest crumple within seconds? It seems that the OOU reason for giving Kenobi and Windu tier 8 (and greater speaking roles!) is their greater narrative importance, which has to manifest itself as feats. Windu is important because he provides this crux moment for Anakin, and in order to do that, he needs to be able to get Darth Sidious on the ground. Kenobi is important because he puts Vader in the suit, and in order to do that, he needs to be able to defeat Anakin Skywalker. Gillard similarly considers Darth Maul and Tyranus tier 8; notably, both of these legendary Sith lords are shown to be able to take on two opponents at once, a feat actor Ray Park considers much harder than standard dueling.


A pattern is beginning to emerge, no? The qualification for tier 8 is not the general statements of supremacy council members might receive; it is demonstrations of feats beyond the capabilities of council level Jedi. This precludes the likes of the B-team and Shaak Ti, but in my opinion, not Drallig. It should be obvious what Drallig has going for him by now: he fought Anakin. Beyond the author of the claims, Drallig’s stated hype is not intrinsically more valuable than the hype of the B-team. But unlike the B-team and Shaak Ti, Drallig is compared to Anakin — a tier 9 — far more explicitly. Drallig has going for him the same sort of feat that Windu, Kenobi, Dooku, and Maul have: a feat beyond the capabilities of council level Jedi. In addition, Dooku seems to group Drallig with the tier 8s, and although the specific LoE quote says any Jedi master, I believe the deliberate call out is significant. Supposedly, reprints of LoE say Shaak Ti instead of Cin Drallig, but I have not seen these reprints. Regardless, Cin Drallig already has a supremacy quote over Shaak Ti, and quite the damning one.


As I said earlier, a strong argument against does not magically erase the slightly less strong arguments for — we need only come up with some reasonable reconcile. One might question how it could be feasible that a tier 8 could do so well against a tier 9, but this certainly is not implausible, especially when this tier 8 is given the same sort of attributes that allowed Kenobi to stand up to Anakin on Mustafar. Not to mention, since TPM, Gillard has been constructing fights such that they are close, such that each fighter has the real possibility of losing.


It stands to reason that this is how it would manifest in a medium subject to his fancy, particularly between a character the narrative demands to be supreme, and a character meant to reflect his real life status as a swordsmen. I am quite satisfied with what I have presented thus far. I believe it provides a compelling framework for understanding Drallig, and well-reasoned points. There are additional scans that I believe can be leveraged in Drallig’s favor, but for now, this will suffice. Edited: As a quick summary, Drallig cannot be tier 9, but nonetheless has tier 9 level arguments, which feed into his tier 8 placement.

Jaina dehype(?)

Admittedly, my knowledge on Jaina is still lacking, so this section will be relatively short, and simple, but nonetheless fairly solid. The force of the argument will lie in Mara Jade’s incredibly even duel with Lumiya.


Unfortunately for Mara, Lumiya is constantly compared to the likes of Darth Vader.


Lumiya outright says she never had any chance at becoming mistress of the Sith, regardless of how much she learned. It is not the death of Vader or Sheev that prevents her ascension, it is her inability to surpass Vader. Vader, whose power will never return to the levels it was at in RotS. Note that Vader will never return to his former power due to the loss of limbs the same way that Lumiya will never rise to power due to her cyborg body.


Lumiya lacks the powerful capabilities of a Sith Master to see all the pieces in the game and every element in the battle. Again, she lacks these powers because of her degenerated body. In other words, Lumiya lacks what Anakin Skywalker would likely have. Remember, Anakin’s intuition let him surpass the extremely well trained and practiced Dooku. Even if Anakin didn’t explicitly have this ability, he would still be good enough to fight people who do, and Cin Drallig is good enough to fight Anakin in an even exchange.

Quite unfortunately for Jaina, Mara doesn’t seem like someone she ever surpasses. Even after LotF, into FotJ, Jaina’s greatest hype is being the equal of anyone in the Order.


In order for this to mean that Jaina has surpassed Mara, it would mean that the order as a whole (probably more specifically the Masters) would have to have, from LotF to FotJ, all surpassed Mara Jade. Mara Jade certainly establishes her dominance over the rest of the Jedi in her competition with Caedus, with Luke and an amped Jaina being the one others who could compete. In order for Jaina to surpass Mara — which still isn’t a guarantee of beating Drallig — “anyone in the Order” has to surpass Mara’s greatest foe, Darth Caedus, as of Sacrifice. But this seems quite difficult, seeing as Lumiya can never become the Sith Master Caedus is.

Anakin > Drallig > Lumiya = Mara > Jaina

SS - Arena of the Unknowns: Cin Drallig (Xan) vs Jaina Solo (hellothere) Empty Re: SS - Arena of the Unknowns: Cin Drallig (Xan) vs Jaina Solo (hellothere)

September 1st 2023, 7:14 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

The Sword of the Jedi


I apologise in advance if this doesn't live up to expectations - I had to rush this post somewhat to finish it on time. Anyway enjoy:

Anakin vs Drallig

Something i've noticed reading your post is you haven't necessarily committed to any hardline stances. Rather you've just made generic wide ranging claims and arguments with evidence, likely so you can avoid them out of them if I pin you down on something. The only thing of note which you provided was:

While perhaps not my strongest piece of evidence for Drallig’s supremacy, there is a moment in the fight where Drallig is able to not only block Anakin’s push, but actually Force push Anakin, in a manner that could only be described as ragdolling. wrote:

Which while interesting isn't particularly quantifiable. It's established weaker force users can rag doll stronger ones given the right circumstances, Maul vs Sidious, etc. Hell Jaina even does something similar against Caedus.

Jaina felt Jacen then; he was throttling Mirta to let Tahiri escape into the docking tube above the hatch. Jaina put every scrap of strength she had into breaking Jacen's invisible Force choke hold on Mirta. She saw it like a black chain and visualized the links flying apart just as Carid shot past her and scrambled up the ladder followed by Vevut. Source: Legacy of the Force: Revelation wrote:

Where Jaina breaks Caedus's force choke on another, the latter being caught off guard.

Caedus who according to Chee endorsed Wizards of the Coast 2008 is more powerful than KFV:

"The Star Wars universe has created some truly vile dark side villains. Have you ever wondered what would happen if the most powerful Sith Lords (Darth Sidious, Darth Caedus, and Darth Revan) duked it out for supremacy of the galaxy?" Source: Wizards of the Coast:Sith Showdown wrote:

And then the inherent issue with your argument lies here:

Since Drallig performs better than Mace, but cannot be somewhere between tier 8 and tier 9, Drallig could only be tier 9, if we considered only this argument. Again, I would not like to assert that Drallig is indeed tier 9, for doing so seems not only bad faith but a blatant demonstration of ignorance for Star Wars. The previous argument serves only to show that Drallig has quite compelling arguments to actually be tier 9; said arguments are simply less compelling than the argument to NOT be tier 9. So if not tier 9, where else? wrote:

If we are to take the VG's interpretation then Drallig should be  above Mace via peforming better against a stronger opponent except as you have noted - he isn't. However if we are to put Mace above then the Drallig vs Anakin fight becomes void of anything since it is overidden by higher forms of canon, thereby collapsing your argument in on itself.

Regardless the Mace comparison is irrelevant since as per the Lucas line edited ROTS novelisation, Mace is incredibly weakened from fighting Sheev let alone when he fights Anakin:

“You're the chosen one, Anakin," Mace said, his voice going thin with strain. This was beyond Vaapad; he had no strength left to fight against his own blade. "Take him. It's your destiny.'” wrote:

Source: Revenge of the Sith

With regards to the Drallig fight itself, per the quotes you yourself provided the video game is meant to be "unbelievable" and "more extreme" than the films, putting its usefulness in extreme doubt. Furthermore given Lucas and other higher forms of canon portray Drallig far below Anakin's class it seems the Lucas/Gillard involvement for the ROTS VG are within the context of the game being "unbelievable" and "more extreme" than the films. As such I don't put much stock in the half hearted comparisons you made with Anakin and Drallig.

Higher forms of canon put Drallig and others around his level far below Anakin:

According to Gillard someone like Kit Fisto is a seven:

When I started, I figured that a youngling is a leve one. And somebody like Kit Fisto - seven. I did take it to eight and nine, but not many people know that. Eight and nine is cheat. So Obi-Wan is eight. Yoda is nine. Mace is eight, bordering on nine. Anakin is nine."In the Jedi levels of lightsaber fighting, Obi-Wan is an eight, while Anakin, Yoda and Darth Sidious are nines. wrote:

-Nick Gillard

Fisto who as you've also pointed out is superior to Drallig via B-team supremacy, endorsed by the Lucas line edited ROTS novelisation:

Forget not the existence of Sidious. Anticipate your action, he may. Masters will be necessary, if the Lord of the Sith you must face."  "I have chosen four of our best. Master Tiin, Master Kolar, and Master Fisto are all here, in the Temple. They are preparing already."  "What about Skywalker? The chosen one."  "Too much of a risk," Mace replied. "I am the fourth." :

"Anakin, why? The Masters are the best of the Order. What can you possibly do?":

-Revenge of the Sith Novelisation

SS - Arena of the Unknowns: Cin Drallig (Xan) vs Jaina Solo (hellothere) 8449786-4102297023-1ubu0

And Fisto by virtue of being a seven - and being shredded by Sidious despite having backup, even encompassing a dark haze - isn't close to the Anakin/Sidious tier 9 level.

Finally the film and novel have Anakin duelling Drallig and other Jedi, beating them with apparent ease.

Anakin vs Drallig

“He watched a lightsaber blade flick into the shot, cutting down first one Padawan, then the other. He watched the brisk stride of a caped figure who hacked through Drallig's shoulder, then stood aside as the old Troll fell dying to let the rest of the clones blast the children to shreds.” wrote:

Source: Revenge of the Sith Novelisation


Unfortunately for Mara, Lumiya is constantly compared to the likes of Darth Vader. wrote:

Lumina compares herself to Vader in that both cannot become true Sith Masters since both are more machine than human:
Lumiya believes that because the Force travels through organic tissue, that she could never become a true Mistress of the Sith, having to be 'mostly organic' in order to achieve "true mastery" of the Dark side.. Darth Vader is not an exception to this in Lumiya's eyes.
The main theme behind Lumiya and Jacen is that Lumiya is looking for someone capable of adopting the mantle of the Dark Lord, in the same vein as Palpatine had been, and she sees Jacen being the best fit for this. That doesn't prelude from Lumiya still potentially being superior to Vader. Which certainly isn't impossible given the former's several decades of study in dark side knowledge from the One Sith, Vergere etc.

Quite unfortunately for Jaina, Mara doesn’t seem like someone she ever surpasses. Even after LotF, into FotJ, Jaina’s greatest hype is being the equal of anyone in the Order. wrote:

We can put Jaina beyond Mara via how Jacen/Caedus view facing Mara and facing Kyle. Jacen scoffs at the idea of Mara challenging him while a much stronger Caedus sees Kyle as "a threat."

Three Jedi Knights: the younger Horn, the Falleen Mithric, the Bothan Hu'lya. He resisted the urge to snort. Separately or collectively, these Jedi Knights were no match for him. Katarn, though, was a threat. Source: Legacy of the Force: Fury wrote:

Meanwhile, Mara was challenging him, pinpointing herself in the tunnels that ran deep under the Kavan countryside, thinking she was still an A-list assassin and that she could take someone who had complete mastery of the Force. She was a superb assassin, but her Force skills were crude compared to his. Source: Legacy of the Force: Sacrifice

And via that quote you posted Jaina is at minimum equal with Kyle as of FOTJ which puts her above Mara as well.

Last edited by hellothere5432 on September 2nd 2023, 7:01 pm; edited 5 times in total

SS - Arena of the Unknowns: Cin Drallig (Xan) vs Jaina Solo (hellothere) Empty Re: SS - Arena of the Unknowns: Cin Drallig (Xan) vs Jaina Solo (hellothere)

September 1st 2023, 7:45 pm

Jaina Hype

This section will be dedicated to establishing why Jaina on paper outclasses Drallig:

Jaina's potential is immense being a Skywalker. Luke expects the twins to have "Skywalker talent" yet is still stunned by their potential.

SS - Arena of the Unknowns: Cin Drallig (Xan) vs Jaina Solo (hellothere) 86e7db10

Source: The Last Command Sourcebook

Jaina then has decades to maximise said potential, notably fighting heavily in the Vong war which is repeatedly stated to be the most destructive, worst conflict in history:

“Leia shivered. If the Yuuzhan Vong can kill Noghri with their bare hands.. . She shook her head and closed Bolpuhr's eyes. "This is worse than anything we've faced before, isn't it, Mara?” Excerpt From Star Wars: Dark Tide I: Onslaught Michael A. Stackpole wrote:

“There's no future in it." Han gave his head a quick shake. "Still, the idea that decent guys like Reck would willingly throw in with the enemy ... The Yuuzhan Vong make the Hutts seem like schoolyard bullies. They make Palpatine seem like an enlightened despot." "Perhaps. But the winning side is paying better," Roa said soberly.” Excerpt From Star Wars: Agents of Chaos I: Hero's trial James Luceno wrote:

In fact the Vong war and the adversity it forced upon the NJO Jedi is what puts them above the PT Jedi:

The Vong war alongside Vergere's philosophy makes the NJO Jedi more powerful than "they ever dreamed possible" according to Troy Denning:

How were the Jedi changed by the war? At the end of the New Jedi Order, Luke Skywalker voiced his dream of seeing the Jedi renounce mundane concerns to pursue a longer view of the Force. That's a great ending for a series, but it makes for a pretty dull space opera. So I knew the Jedi would be dragged back into the mundane, forced by the necessities of the moment to devote themselves to preserving the Galactic Alliance.And it seemed very clear to me that they would be effective. The Jedi's battles against Yuuzhan Vong had instilled in them an iron will to win, and the new view on the Force taught by Vergere -- the mysterious Knight from the Old Republic -- had made them more powerful than they ever dreamed possible. wrote:


This would noteworthily bind Jaina who turned to the DS following Anakin's death. Said DS Jaina would make DS Kyp Durron under the influence of Exar Kun look like a "simple scoundrel" and would have messed up the order.

If you had died there, I don't think I could have gone on. I wouldn't have just become 'the Sword of the Jedi,' but the sword the Jedi would have been sorry they'd forged. I would have made the Kyp who destroyed Carida look like a simple scoundrel." Star Wars: The New Jedi Order: The Unifying Force wrote:

If needed more can be elaborated on Dark Lord Kyp on my next post but I think he largely speaks for himself so I'll leave it for now.

The idea of a dark side NJO Jedi being mega powerful is also touted at in other sources:

The Jedi. If even one of them turns to the dark side, we could have bigger troubles than the Yuuzhan Vong." Source:Emissary of the Void wrote:

So Jaina post TUF is far stronger than a Dark Side Jaina who makes Dark Lord Kyp look trash by comparison and would have threatened the order badly. That alone is far more than anything you've presented for Drallig.

Prime Jaina >>> Post TUF Jaina >> DS Jaina >>> Dark Lord Kyp

For the sake of keeping it concise I'll leave it at that for now but may go into FOTJ Jaina's comparisons with Kyle/Kyp and then quantify them if needed.


-Xan's argument for Drallig and Anakin is self contradictory and goes against the wider narrative that Drallig is nowhere near that class.
-Xan's chain comparing Jaina and Drallig is broken via several methods.
-Jaina on paper should be far beyond Drallig.
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