October 21st 2021, 6:19 pm
KYP DURRON (RNG) -VS- DARTH THANATON (DARTH PLAGUEIS THE WISE)
As Agreed upon by both contestants, there will be no character constraints! The round system will remain the same though:
(Opener B should contain counters to Opener A)
(Conclusions should not introduce wholly original arguments)
(Opener B should contain counters to Opener A)
(Conclusions should not introduce wholly original arguments)
- lorenzo.r.2ndLevel Three
October 24th 2021, 1:22 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
who tf is RNG. reminds me of that ben 10 alien
- Darth Rymrgand
November 1st 2021, 10:51 pm
The Sith Lord Darth Thanaton is repeatedly stated to be a supreme power within the SWTOR Sith Empire.
- SWTOR Encyclopedia wrote:"But the inquisitor nearly loses everything after being caught in a trap devised by Darth Thanaton, a supremely powerful Sith and harsh traditionalist who bristles at the idea of a former slave rising to sudden influence. To combat Thanaton's insurmountable strength, the inquisitor learns the ritual of Force-walking and gains power by consuming the energy of Darth Andru, a seething Force spirit locked away on Dromund Kaas. Fueled by the ghost's power, the inquisitor confronts Thanaton--only to be nearly eradicated by the superior Sith's dark sorcery."SWTOR Encyclopedia wrote:"It is in the Dark Council chambers on Korriban that the Sith inqusitor finally corners Thanaton and utterly destroys the once supreme Sith while the Dark Council bears witness."
This is significant because Thanaton has this hype from within an era that is the direct successor to one in which the Jedi are "in their prime", and is a high ranking Sith in what is the True Sith.
- True Sith:
- Chris Avellone, Eurogamer wrote:"That third game would cast you as "the Exile" and allow you to track Revan's path. "Whether you encounter him or not..." he pauses, wary of spoilers in case the game ever happens in the future. "The idea was that even before the 'modern day' Sith came into being in The Old Republic ... there were even more distant Sith Lords that were considered the true Sith, and the idea that they were still lurking out there in the galaxy waiting for a chance to strike, kind of like the Shadows in Babylon 5, I thought would be a cool finale for that Old Republic trilogy.
"Part of the fun with designing them," he adds, "was if you have these incredibly powerful Force users and they have their whole hidden domain out in the distant reaches of the galaxy, what would that Sith empire really look like at the hands of these things?
"If they could shape entire planets or galaxies or nebulas, and they had all these slave races at their disposal, how cool would that be, to go into the heart of darkness and you're the lone Jedi and/or new version of the Sith confronting these guys? What would that be like? I thought that would be pretty epic."swtor.com: The Sith Lords wrote:"The true Sith have spent centuries building their strength in the depths of unknown space."
His own rival, the soon-to-be Darth Nox is an immense prodigy and descendant of one of the most powerful Sith of a previous era, had to go to great lengths to even compete with Thanaton.
- SWTOR Web wrote:"To take the station, the Empire sends a small group of its most powerful champions to the asteroid surface to storm the base, fight their way through the army of droids and defeat the crazed Jedi once and for all."
- SWTOR Codex: Kallig wrote:"Little is remembered of the Sith Lord Kallig. Like many ancient Sith, his name is all but forgotten, as more powerful–or at least more visible–Sith Lords have taken their place in the historical record. The only known mention of Kallig is in the writings of the famous Dark Lord Tulak Hord, who said “Easily the most ambitious, and therefore the most dangerous of my rivals is Kallig. Therefore, he shall be the first to die.” It is rumored, however, that Tulak Hord was not so successful at killing his rival as he would have liked–and that the strange events in the Dark Temple on Dromund Kaas have Kallig at their center."SWTOR Codex: Legacy of Tulak Hord wrote:"The secrets behind Tulak Hord’s great power were many, and they all but vanished from the galaxy with the Dark Lord’s death. Generations of Sith have obsessed over unearthing his ancient teachings and artifacts, but Tulak Hord hid them well. Of the relics recovered successfully, the mask of Tulak Hord is most recognizable. Darth Revan discovered this relic in Tulak Hord’s tomb while searching for the Star Forge space station, though both the mask of Tulak Hord and the mask of Darth Revan have disappeared since. In recent years, Tulak Hord’s lightsaber was unearthed on Dromund Fels by Darth Marr before his ascension to the Dark Council. Despite these discoveries, Tulak Hord’s greatest treasures still lie locked away in the far corners of the galaxy, waiting for a new master to claim their power."
- SWTOR Codex: Force-walking wrote:"Three hundred years after Tulak Hord, the Sith Ergast tried to recreate the ritual the Dark Lord used to devour the spirits of his enemies at Yn and Chabosh. In its place, he discovered what he called the ritual of Force-walking. Requiring a Sith of great strength of will, the ritual of Force-walking allows the user to bind the restless ghosts of dead Sith to himself. Once the ghosts are bound, the ritualist may draw from their power, channeling it into a powerful exertion of Force energy against his enemies."SWTOR Codex: The Force Walker wrote:"You earned this title after mastering the ritual of the Force Walk and binding the spirits of Darth Andru and Ergast, increasing your own power."
- Ghosts backfiring:
- SWTOR Codex: Force-walking sickness wrote:"Of the few recorded people who successfully learned the Sith Lord Ergast’s Force-walking ritual, all of them rose to prominence quickly and faded from glory shortly thereafter, with nothing to indicate what brought about their ends. Among them, only one was known to have bound more than one Sith ghost–and that was Ergast himself, whose own death remains a mystery. It appears, however, that binding too many ghosts can quickly overwhelm the host, inflicting physical and spiritual sickness on the Force-walking Sith and leading to violent expressions of Force power beyond the Sith’s control."
So, in summary... Darth Thanaton is an immensely powerful Sith within an empire of Sith that are hyped up to be far greater than what the Jedi of the Old Republic can handle, while said Jedi also benefit from several goat statements. His rival is an immense prodigy, descendant of one of the greatest rivals of one of the greatest Dark Lords of the Sith in existence, who is not only pushed to his limit against Thanaton, but is forced to augment himself immensely through Sith rituals that force his body to combust in Force energy.
Kallig and Hord
An angle that I feel is important to discuss is that of the rivalry between Tulak Lord and Lord Kallig, alongside their place within the Sith hierarchy. The most common theory is that Tulak Hord is one of the Dark Jedi that were exiled at the end of the Hundred Year Darkness, and there is a fair amount of evidence to support this.
For one, extremely ancient Sith Lords are repeatedly depicted with proper lightsabers, even though this is a technology that has to be "rediscovered" later on.. Tulak Hord is explicitly mentioned as being a lightsaber wielder, same with Lord Kallig.
- Hord and Kallig:
- SWTOR Codex: The Legacy of Tulak Hord wrote:“In recent years, Tulak Hord’s lightsaber was unearthed on Dromund Fels by Darth Marr before his ascension to the Dark Council.”
Tulak Hord is explicitly stated to have hidden artifacts far enough away from Stygian Caldera as Balmorra and Alderaan, and to have warred against the Jedi and Republic. This had to be pre-GHW, and the only war that we know of during that time period is Dark Jedi Exiles that left Korriban to challenge the Jedi.
- Hord War:
- Dark Jedi Exiles:
With this in mind, both Tulak Hord and Lord Kallig are called some of the most powerful Sith of their era.
- SWTOR Codex: The Legacy of Tulak Hord wrote:"The secrets behind Tulak Hord’s great power were many, and they all but vanished from the galaxy with the Dark Lord’s death. Generations of Sith have obsessed over unearthing his ancient teachings and artifacts, but Tulak Hord hid them well. Of the relics recovered successfully, the mask of Tulak Hord is most recognizable. Darth Revan discovered this relic in Tulak Hord’s tomb while searching for the Star Forge space station, though both the mask of Tulak Hord and the mask of Darth Revan have disappeared since. In recent years, Tulak Hord’s lightsaber was unearthed on Dromund Fels by Darth Marr before his ascension to the Dark Council. Despite these discoveries, Tulak Hord’s greatest treasures still lie locked away in the far corners of the galaxy, waiting for a new master to claim their power."SWTOR Codex: Tomb of Tulak Hord wrote:"Lord of Hate, Master of the Gathering Darkness and Dark Lord of the Sith. These are but a few of the titles worn by the great Tulak Hord. His command of the dark side and mastery of lightsaber techniques won Hord many battles, and each victory earned him enemies abroad and within the Sith ranks. Of the many who challenged his might, none were successful. Among Hord’s greatest triumphs were the battles of Yn and Chabosh. With an army of dark side warriors and his faithful Dashade assassin at his side, he annihilated the rebels who defied the expansion of the Sith Empire and went on to conquer the Dromund system–setting the stage for Dromund Kaas to eventually become capital of the Empire. Imperial historians believe the worlds conquered by Hord number in the hundreds, but any records from his bygone era were lost in the Great Hyperspace War."
- SWTOR Codex: Lord Kallig wrote:"Little is remembered of the Sith Lord Kallig. Like many ancient Sith, his name is all but forgotten, as more powerful–or at least more visible–Sith Lords have taken their place in the historical record. The only known mention of Kallig is in the writings of the famous Dark Lord Tulak Hord, who said “Easily the most ambitious, and therefore the most dangerous of my rivals is Kallig. Therefore, he shall be the first to die.” It is rumored, however, that Tulak Hord was not so successful at killing his rival as he would have liked–and that the strange events in the Dark Temple on Dromund Kaas have Kallig at their center."
While other Sith from this era, such as XoXaan and Karness Muur, both have significant comparisons to powerful Sith such as Darth Krayt.
- Karness Muur:
- Krayt for reference:
- John Ostrander, author of Legacy wrote:“Imperial Knights. Yes, in the first two issues you see every one you encounter die. But look at who they are up against. The first four are up against Darth Krayt himself. We saw Palpatine take out four Jedi masters; I submit it doesn't put the IK in a bad light to suggest that Krayt is in that class.”
This isn't even all of the hype that Sith from this get, as Karness Muur is shown to be a potential avenue for defeating Palpatine, and being an equally oppressive master.
- Dark Times Muur:
So... in conclusion, Tulak Hord, and Lord Kallig, are given goat statements for Sith lords within an era that has powerhouses such as Karness Muur and XoXaan. They are both potentially within the RoTS titan class. "Why is this signifcant?" you may ask, Darth Nox is the confirmed successor to Tulak Hord by Khem Val, Tulak Hord's personal bodyguard who has fought countless battles alongside his master. Khem Val is not stating this lightly, and is extremely biased in favor of Hord over Nox. For reference, this occurs immediately after the fight with Darth Thanaton.
- Successor :
Karness Muur ~ RoTS Palpatine class ~ Vong Krayt ~< Karness Muur ~< Tulak Hord ~< Darth Nox >>> Darth Thanaton
Horak-Mul is one of several encountered and enslaved by Darth Nox, in an effort to surpass Darth Thanaton. Out of the 4, he is the one with the most history, previously serving as Ludo Kressh's right hand man.
He makes repeated interactions with Nox and his servants prior to being bound.
Horak-Mul is utterly amazed by not only Nox, but by his servants.
And even... declares inferiority on his entire era's behalf to that of one of Nox's servants.
This is extremely significant because it establishes that in the eye's of Horak-Mul, a extremely high ranking Sith from right before the Great Hyperspace War, Khem Val's own power is great enough that he could easily make anyone the Dark Lord of the Sith of Horak-Mul's era. The two most prominent Sith from Horak-Mul's era are Naga Sadow and Marka Ragnos, with Horak-Mul suggesting that Hoth Khem would be capable of killing either. This both raises Tulak Hord immensely, as well as Khem, Nox, and Thanaton.
This is not an outlier, as Khem does have similar quotes.
- SWTOR Web wrote:"Powerful, cunning and ruthless enough to slay even the strongest Force users, Khem Val was trained as an elite assassin. After emerging from his long slumber, the Dashade is the very embodiment of death and destruction; a reminder that there are things even Sith and Jedi must fear."SWTOR Encyclopedia wrote:"Khem Val loyally served the Sith Lord Tulak Hord after the powerful Sith proved his superiority over Khem by defeating him in battle. This was the first time any Force user had bested Khem Val."SWTOR Web wrote:"The Dashade have all but disappeared from the galaxy, and the details of Khem Val’s legend have faded to formless, creeping fear. Deep in the tomb of Naga Sadow on Korriban, Khem Val sleeps, suspended in a stasis field guarded by crackling electric energy. No one knows how he got there, or how to wake him. Even the greatest Sith Lords do not dare try. For when he wakes, he is sure to be hungry…."
Sadly for Khem, Darth Thanaton is one of the few Sith with claim to have had defeated the dashade shadow assassin.
Likewise, this is not the first time SWTOR has cucked Naga Sadow.
Naga Sadow < Hoth Khem << Beginning of Act 2 Nox << 2 spirits Nox < Nox + Khem <<< Darth Thanaton.
When stats get brought into this, prospects do not look bright for Kyp.
NJO Jaina is close, and actually has superior dueling stats in minis.
Random KOTOR Jedi and Sith are written as superior duelists to Kyp.
- Jedi Guardian:
- Sith Marauder :
Kyp can possibly piggyback off of Corran being better off in minis.
Which places him within a similar combative range to Bastila Shan.
But still below Lucien Draay.
And both Naga Sadow and Freedon Nadd.
- Sadow and Nadd:
This isn't anywhere near a good look for Kyp if stats are holding Naga Sadow well above Kyp, while SWTOR holds Sadow below Khem Val, much less Thanaton.
Darth Thanaton is of such high rank, that the Lords that kneel before him have all of Naga Sadow's collection of Force knowledge.
Knowledge that Palpatine feared his servants knowing.
He prides himself on his decades of study into the Force.
And repeatedly makes use of his sorcery within combat.
He has his own vast collection of Sith lore.
Benefits from the Sith Empire having an entire army branch dedicated to the recovery of dark side knowledge and artifacts.
And as a Dark Council member, has access to a bidden repository of knowledge curated by the Sith Emperor Vitiate.
- Dark Library:
- SWTOR Codex:Taking the Sith Academy wrote:"But the true value of capturing the Sith Academy lies within the restricted halls and chambers of the Dark Council. Though Sith are known to destroy sources of information in order to obfuscate the truth, the Emperor had accumulated a vast repository of arcane and taboo knowledge which is now believed to be curated by the Dark Council."
Darth Thanaton has had more time to study arcane Sith texts and dark side lore than Luke's entire Jedi Order has existed for, had a far greater starting foundation to begin his studies, and benefits from a far greater government entity which desires knowing as much about the Force as is possible. To assume that Kyp would know even close to many Force techniques, much less sorcery, as Thanaton is to make a mistake.
Horak-Mul admitting inferiority of all Sith of his era to Khem Val necessitates that Darth Thanaton is well beyond the Sith of Horak-Mul's era, which would include characters such as Ludo Kressh, Marka Ragnos, and Naga Sadow.
Darth Nox is a true successor to the Sith lords Tulak Hord and Lord Kallig, both of whom are supported as being the greatest Sith not long after the Hundred Year Darkness.
This necessitates that Tulak Hord and Lord Kallig are, at a minimum, near Karness Muur in combative power.
Stats significantly favor Naga Sadow over Kyp or any other, non-Luke, NJO Jedi.
Darth Thanaton has had decades to master Sith sorcery, which Kyp should struggle to counter.
- Chris Cortosis
November 12th 2021, 11:43 am
The Grand Finale:
First and foremost, I'd like to congratulate both of us for making it to this point. We've both overcome everyone before us to reach this point. And now it's time for a victor. May fortune smile upon the greater man.
I will be responding to some of the points on your
Kallig, Hord, and Horak Mul:
As I'm sure you know: None of this really binds the NJO. There's more to address here with some of the specific evidence you've sent but I'll leave it at that for now.@Darth Rymrgand wrote:This is significant because Thanaton has this hype from within an era that is the direct successor to one in which the Jedi are "in their prime", and is a high ranking Sith in what is the True Sith.
The soon to be Nox was far from reaching his full potential during his first confrontation with Thanaton. He needed the force walking amp to make up for his momentary inferiority. Thanaton feared how powerful he'd become.@Darth Rymrgand wrote:His own rival, the soon-to-be Darth Nox is an immense prodigy and descendant of one of the most powerful Sith of a previous era, had to go to great lengths to even compete with Thanaton.
Obviously not denying Thanaton's supremacy over Nox in their first fight, but it's not all too impressive of Thanaton to fear a prodigy in such an early stage of his career. Speaks more to Nox's greatness than anything in favor of Thanaton.
Also as the scans you've sent support, the soon to be Nox already outstripped Thanaton pretty handily in power as early as their second fight. Like... a literal ragdoll gap. Only due to his lack of control did the soon to be Nox fail.
- Second Fight:
To conclude this section, we basically disagree on it being impressive. Even prodigies are generally weak early on in their careers. The soon to be Nox needing an amp is hardly that impressive. And he practically surpasses Thanaton in raw power rather early.
@Darth Rymrgand wrote:So... in conclusion, Tulak Hord, and Lord Kallig, are given goat statements for Sith lords within an era that has powerhouses such as Karness Muur and XoXaan. They are both potentially within the RoTS titan class. "Why is this signifcant?" you may ask, Darth Nox is the confirmed successor to Tulak Hord by Khem Val, Tulak Hord's personal bodyguard who has fought countless battles alongside his master. Khem Val is not stating this lightly, and is extremely biased in favor of Hord over Nox. For reference, this occurs immediately after the fight with Darth Thanaton.
I don't think any of the quotes imply he's surpassed Hord in raw power. Just that he is powerful. "Successor" and "Heir" don't automatically mean he's more powerful. More that he's carrying on their greatness and cause. Nox can, will, and does surpass Hord and Kallig. But as of defeating Thanaton? I don't quite think so.
@Darth Rymrgand wrote:Karness Muur ~ RoTS Palpatine class ~ Vong Krayt ~< Karness Muur ~< Tulak Hord ~< Darth Nox >>> Darth Thanaton
Seeing as how he's literally able to ragdoll Thanaton sheer power wise in a super unrefined state, I think you ought to add a lot more ">" in between Nox and Thanaton. The way it's portrayed, Nox is toying with Thanaton. Trumps him with ease once he's able to control his power. (Video is timestamped):
@Darth Rymrgand wrote:Horak-Mul is utterly amazed by not only Nox, but by his servants.
You say this as if he's prostrating himself to Nox in the scan you sent. He isn't. He's literally just saying "Cool. Good work. You're not bad". Not that big a deal though. Just thought I should address.
@Darth Rymrgand wrote:And even... declares inferiority on his entire era's behalf to that of one of Nox's servants.
Now.... I must cast some doubt on this for a couple of reasons:
Simply put, if Horak believed Nox to be above everyone of his era, wouldn't he say so directly? He feels Nox's power and everything. The way he treats Nox is far from that of a person he'd be a subordinate to. He also believes Ludo Kressh to be the true Dark Lord. I wouldn't put too much stock into his opinions:
The Dashade were unparalleled assassins. Meaning Horak in this context is saying Khem could have assassinated a lot of political rivals and shit. More praise for Khem's assassination skills. Which is good for Khem, but it's not outright saying Khem > Sadow.
Furthermore, look at how Horak died, he was ganked by assassins. Would it not make sense for a prideful Sith such as himself to overhype the types of enemy that killed him? Would it not make sense for him to see an assassin with good skill and think "wow, imagine the damage that thing could do if it did what my assassins did to far more people"?
Well to further hammer this point home, here's his telling of how he died:
-TOTJ: Golden Age of the Sith 5
1: He's arrogant and prideful. He overhyped the circumstances of his own death and thus it's not a stretch to assume he'd overhype the power of a very skilled assassin to crazy heights. Clearly his perspective is somewhat skewed.
2: He's so stupid that he forgot how he died. How's he gonna concede inferiority on behalf of his era if he can't remember such a simple thing? (Joke)
3 It's just an inconsistency/retcon, writers are idiots for not noticing the circumstances of Horak's death/the writers retconned the circumstances.
I'd put far more stock into 1. Especially because he feels the need to overhype what it took to kill him by saying "Not one, but five!" Mans is definitely compensating.
I'd say this example is more a case of his spirit weakening greatly after his death. I mean this was a good while after Nadd killed him. He's not exactly getting cucked. Plus Ovair is from a family specially raised and trained to deal with Sith spirits.@Darth Rymrgand wrote:Likewise, this is not the first time SWTOR has cucked Naga Sadow.
Furthermore, I must ask: As this video says, Vitiate explicitly considered the spirits of the ancient Sith a threat to his power. So if Sadow were as weak as you're trying to say, why would Vitiate, (someone who's leagues above Nox and Thanaton and all the rest of the era) need them taken care of before his invasion?
You wound me, Plagueis. You truly do. Am I not worthy of your real, serious arguments? Why must you bait me? Why save all the good stuff for future responses? Not to worry, I'll address this point:@Darth Rymrgand wrote:When stats get brought into this, prospects do not look bright for Kyp.
NJO Jaina is close, and actually has superior dueling stats in minis.
For one thing, based on Kyp's appearance here + the set Durron's mini was released with (Imperial Entanglements, a mostly OT era set that focuses on Rebel vs Empire stuff), it's clear that this is a Durron who's super early in his career and massively pre prime. End of Jedi Academy most probably.
- Mini Set:
Assuming for just a split second that Kyp is sub random KOTOR Jedi dueling, which is a stretch to say the least, funnily enough, he still outstrips all the cards you've sent in the force. With a ranking of 4. Even a super early Kyp is super potent in that aspect.@Darth Rymrgand wrote:Random KOTOR Jedi and Sith are written as superior duelists to Kyp.
However, that's besides the point. Using this mini for scaling is like calling GM Luke fodder because ESB Luke is sub Vader. In fact, minis somewhat do support NJO supremacy (for average Jedi of respective eras anyway), I will get more into this later.
Plus, mini stats aren't the best to use for scaling in general, great as supporting evidence, don't get me wrong. But as we all know, minis are super wonky at times. Need I provide scans of suited Vader>KFV? Not a good idea to use them as your chain link.
- Aurra is >~ KFV tier in minis. (don't tell Grey or Vaelias)
Fear is a somewhat strong word for this lol. It's more Palps playing his cards close to the chest than anything super damning. And superstition. You wouldn't give knowledge to people you want to remain subordinates to you. But this isn't too important. Just wanted to throw it in.@Darth Rymrgand wrote:Knowledge that Palpatine feared his servants knowing.
While Thanaton does have a fair deal of force knowledge, it certainly won't be a trump card or the deciding factor. Nor are his abilities hax tier.@Darth Rymrgand wrote:Darth Thanaton has had more time to study arcane Sith texts and dark side lore than Luke's entire Jedi Order has existed for, had a far greater starting foundation to begin his studies, and benefits from a far greater government entity which desires knowing as much about the Force as is possible. To assume that Kyp would know even close to many Force techniques, much less sorcery, as Thanaton is to make a mistake.
"When you looked at Kyp Durron, you knew you were seeing an enormously powerful weapon."
Lets start with hype. Durron is an extremely potent Jedi in a potent era. He played a major role in the bloodiest war in galactic history and is an extremely skilled force user. And he's still going strong. As for his era... The New Jedi Order doesn't play second fiddle. It's above PT and TOTJ. And has the stats to back it up. (For average Jedi anyway):
- NJO Supremacy:
- Jedi vs Sith:
A much younger and more inexperienced Jedi of the NJO (literally stated to be a student) has parity with a full on Jedi Guardian of the KOTOR era in mini stats. While mini stats can sometimes be wonky, in this case, it's supported by other evidence and stands.
- NJO in stats:
- Kyp Hype:
- Fact File 115:
The doors slid open, Kyp Durron entered, and at once the mood of the room seemed to shift. Some people, Jacen thought, carried a kind of aura with them. If you met Cilghal, you knew at once you were in the presence of a compassionate healer, and Luke Skywalker radiated authority and wisdom.
When you looked at Kyp Durron, you knew you were seeing an enormously powerful weapon. If only Jacen didn't know how erratic that weapon had been.
Durron is a top tier Jedi in an era that has demonstrable supremacy over PT and TOTJ/KOTOR.
Using your chain for a second:
Now let's revisit your chain for a moment:
@Darth Rymrgand wrote:Karness Muur ~ RoTS Palpatine class ~ Vong Krayt ~< Karness Muur ~< Tulak Hord ~< Darth Nox >>> Darth Thanaton
Let's assume for the moment that Hord was equal to/sub Nox as of him defeating Thanaton. As I've explained earlier, Nox was a good stomp gap above Thanaton so lets make a slight change to your chain:
Karness Muur ~ RoTS Palpatine class ~ Vong Krayt ~< Karness Muur ~< Tulak Hord ~< Darth Nox >>>>>>>> Darth Thanaton
Now let's look at Luke Skywalker for a moment: As of ROTJ, he's able to resist Palpatine's mental influence whilst beating Vader in a duel.
- Resisting Palps:
- B Team:
As we all know, he grows rather exponentially from there to Dark Empire. As of the end of DE 1 issue 1, Luke's already basically at PT master tier+. He's "awakening to the legendary powers of the great Masters of old..." which obviously refers to Yoda and Kenobi, since they're mentioned in the same passage.
- Growth as of BoDE:
Palpatine is also much more powerful now:
Soon he was ready to strike. Fully healed and in greater control of the Dark Side than ever, he finally acted to end the Mutiny.
Palpatine held a power over Luke that C'baoth never could. Where Luke felt concern and even pity for C'baoth, Palpatine's power seemed overwhelming. The Emperor was not a mad, deluded shadow of a once great man; he was a conscious, willing participant in corruption for its own sake. Luke apprenticed himself to the Emperor of his own free will. Palpatine was so powerful in this new incarnation that Luke felt the only way to defeat the Dark Side was to know its ways and find its weaknesses. Luke had chosen his destiny: to understand the Dark Side from within and to use that knowledge to conquer it.
- DE Handbook:
And Luke out-duels this Palpatine with an amp from Leia.
- Luke vs Palps:
LEIA: Be careful, Luke! The Force is strong....they're both moving so fast, I can hardly see them....I feel waves of power....the Dark Side and the Light.....But......I feel......the Light.....is winning!!
-DE Audio Drama
-DE 1, Issue 6
-DE 1, Issue 6
So dueling and force augmentation wise, Luke as of DE outperforms Yoda. Who was about equal to, but slightly lesser than Palpatine:
This truth: that he, the avatar of light, Supreme Master of the Jedi Order, the fiercest, most implacable, most devastatingly powerful foe the darkness had ever known … just— didn’t— have it. He’d never had it. He had lost before he started. He had lost before he was born. The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years’ intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves
While DE Luke doesn't outstrip the Reborn Emperor in terms of pure force power, all of this is more than enough to put him above the ROTS titans. He's already close to that point at the beginning of DE 1 (as per the second endnotes quote I posted). And his experiences with the Emperor and his ultimate refusal of the dark side have only made him more powerful. Hell, he's already showing superior mental resistance to the B team as early as ROTS. Needless to say, as of the end of DE 1, Luke>ROTS titans.
You may think: "but you've posted evidence from the DE endnotes. That came out before the PT." It's still valid as it hasn't exactly been contradicted. And it is supported in evidence. It makes perfect narrative sense and everything.
And of course, Luke only grows after DE:
- Luke Growth:
The Jedi Master looked at me and I felt electricity run through his blue-eyed gaze. When we had met before I had felt power in him, but now, after his experiences with the Emperor Reborn, his power had been redoubled. Physically he looked a bit haggard and worn, with the flesh around his eyes having tightened and wrinkles appearing at their corners. I knew we were the same age chronologically, but in experience he far surpassed me.
"Once the Force was to me like a whispered voice on the wind, " Luke said, standing and looking back toward the Great Temple. "Obi-Wan taught me to hear it, and Yoda to understand it. I trained myself to hear it no matter where I was. And in my turn I taught others to hear and understand. But I have not been hearing that voice well of late, though my hearing is more acute than ever. There is too much noise. There is too much I must screen out. There are too many questions, too many demands. Everyone seems to be shouting at me. It's painful, and tiring. "
-Before the Storm
"Let me guess," she said, the sarcasm gone from her voice again. "Life as a Jedi has been a lot foggier than you ever expected it to be. You've had trouble understanding what you're supposed to do, or how you're supposed to behave. You've been gaining tremendous power in the Force, but more often than not you've been paralyzed with fear that you're going to use it the wrong way. Am I getting warm?"
Luke stared at her. "Yes," he said, not quite believing it. How had she known? "That's it exactly."
"And yet," she continued, "sometime in the past couple of months, things have suddenly become clearer. Not that you've had any great lightning-bolt insights, but a lot of the hesitation has disappeared and you've found it easier to stay on what seems in hindsight to have been the right path."
"Right again," Luke said.
-Vision of the Future
So where does Kyp Durron fall into things?
He is compared to Luke multiple times:
- Luke Comparisons:
Kyp was gradually overcoming his fear and preoccupation with Jedi powers and the potential for abusing them. After his epiphany inside the temple of Exar Kun, Kyp had emerged stronger, able to accept the challenge. If he could face this final test, Luke would know that Kyp had passed through the fire of his testing-tempered by forces as dire and powerful as those Luke himself had endured....
-Champions of the Force
Vengeance went against the Jedi Code-as the code was taught by Master Skywalker, at any rate. Vengeance, according to Skywalker, was a path to the dark side. But there were other Jedi Knights, as powerful as Skywalker in Skidder's estimation, who took issue with some of the Master's teachings. Jedi Master Kyp Durron, for one.
-Agents of Chaos: Jedi Eclipse (More on this quote later on. Stay tuned.)
- More Comparison:
They traded places then, Jaina suddenly opening up with her weapons, Kyp handing the task of flying evasively over to his reflexes while his mind went elsewhere.
Luke Skywalker had done this once, a couple of years ago. He'd mentioned it to the other Jedi. No one else had tried it because it had exhausted Luke to the point of collapse, and Jedi were seldom in a position to survive a technique that tired them so completely.
They were past the second wave of coralskippers now and heading toward the cloud surrounding Jag. Beyond it, not far now, was the second interdictor. Kyp knew that other skips had to be converging on him and Jaina. He didn't bother to look at his sensor board. They weren't relevant now.
And he didn't think he'd be as terribly drained as Luke by the technique. He was stronger in the Force than Luke Skywalker.
He'd known that almost since they'd met - that he had more pure power than the legendary Jedi Master. But this was, perhaps, the first time he'd been able to say it to himself without a little thrill of pride. He was just stronger, and that was all. It usually didn't matter. Now it did.
-Enemy Lines: Rebel Dream
Now one thing I must emphasize:
NJO Kyp is NOT above Luke in raw power. Not at all. Allston himself (writer of the Enemy Lines duology) says so. Luke has multiple statements as of NJO that have him as GOAT Jedi Master. And as as we all know, Luke holds back a LOT post DE and pre TUF. TUF is truly when Luke becomes the force god he's hyped up to be by some people. As is the case with Luke throughout his life, when he gets serious, he gets SUPER deadly.
That being said, all of Luke's power growth quotes are 100% valid. As in, Pre TUF NJO Luke > > > Post DE Luke > > DE Luke. It's just that he's holding back. Not truly willing to go all out. While NJO Kyp is sub NJO Luke, the very fact that some characters IU hold him at Luke tier AND the fact that he's able to outperform Luke with the dovin basal feat (more on this later) means that he has some measure of parity. It means they're within the same realm.
NJO Kyp is sub NJO Luke. But to the degree that he'd still benefit from scaling.
After NJO, Durron as well as the rest of the NJO experience growth:
- Bug Man:
How were the Jedi changed by the war? At the end of The New Jedi Order, Luke Skywalker voiced his dream of seeing the Jedi renounce mundane concerns to pursue a longer view of the Force. That's a great ending for a series, but it makes for a pretty dull space opera. So I knew the Jedi would be dragged back into the mundane, forced by the necessities of the moment to devote themselves to preserving the Galactic Alliance.
And it seemed very clear to me that they would be effective. The Jedi's battles against the Yuuzhan Vong had instilled in them an iron will to win, and the new view of the Force taught by Vergere -- the mysterious Knight from the Old Republic -- had made them more powerful than they ever dreamed possible.
But (at least from a storyteller's viewpoint) powerful characters are only interesting when they have big flaws. Fortunately, the NJO had provided a nice opening for me.
-Troy Denning Builds a Dark Nest https://web.archive.org/web/20051104092724/http://www.starwars.com/eu/lit/novel/f20050809/index.html
So with all that evidence + your original scaling chain, we get the below chain:
Post NJO Kyp >> NJO Kyp ~<< (same realm) NJO Luke >> Post DE Luke >>> DE Luke >> RoTS Titan class ~ Karness Muur ~ Vong Krayt ~< Karness Muur ~< Tulak Hord ~< Darth Nox >>>>>>>> Darth Thanaton
Now of course, this is assuming Hord ~< Nox. And as I've said before, I don't believe Nox surpasses Hord as of his victory over Thanaton. Though, even if he did, it hardly benefits Thanaton, as the stomp gap between him and Nox would prevent him from benefitting through ROTS titan scaling.
You saw this coming:
I will simply state that nothing that Thanaton (or anyone in his realm) has done or can do is on the same scale of both power and skill as the dovin basal feat. Moving black holes, even artificial ones is nothing to shake one's head at. Not only did he perform this super focus intensive feat, he also did so whilst piloting. And he killed a Grutchin immediately afterward.
- Dovin Basal Feat:
He armed a proton torpedo and fired it. He felt its physical presence as, in a matter of seconds, it closed the distance between him and the interdictor... and was swallowed by another void.
He felt it enter the void, felt which of the many singularities it was.
And he seized upon that void, directing all his Force abilities and discipline against it.
It was like using a thin metal rod to push a grounded landspeeder. Too much pressure and it would bend, becoming useless. Too little and nothing would happen. He had to find the right pressure to budge it, to set it into motion and keep it going that way...
For a moment, the only things in the universe were him, Jaina, and the void. He moved the void, turned it around, moved it back the other direction.
Then he was himself again, in the cockpit, watching the flank of the interdictor distort. The void had moved back and touched the interdictor, and now the interdictor elongated into it, extending what looked like a pliant extrusion of what he knew to be hardened yorik coral into the singularity.
Kyp felt obliterated, bone-tired, as though he'd run for days, drawing on the Force to sustain him, and had finally settled down for rest. His diagnostics board was beeping at him and he spared it a glance. "I've taken damage," he said. "A grutchin, I think."
In fact, a portion of his cockpit, to starboard, was starting to blacken, with acrid smoke pouring off it. Idly, he pulled his lightsaber from his belt and oriented its head toward the blackened area.
A moment later, the metal parted and insectile eyes shoved their way into the cockpit. Kyp thumbed his lightsaber on and the energy blade plunged through the creature. Kyp turned it off again. Its noise was muted by the fact that almost all the atmosphere in the cockpit had disappeared through the hole in those few moments;
Kyp's flight suit activated, its energy shield technology holding atmosphere in around him, keeping pressure on his skin. "Grutchin problem solved," he said.
-Enemy Lines, Rebel Dream
-Nox, as of killing Thanaton isn't exactly > Hord. "Successor" doesn't always necessitate him surpassing Hord in power.
-Thanaton is massively sub Nox. A good stomp gap below. Nox basically makes Thanaton prostrate himself. Thanaton wouldn't really benefit from scaling. No more than Quinlan Vos would benefit from being sub Dooku.
-Horak's praise of Khem wouldn't really put him > Sadow and even assuming that was the intent, Horak isn't exactly that reliable a source. Furthermore, characters conceding on behalf of other characters is also a very slippery slope to use scaling wise. In one of the quotes I sent, Wurth Skidder estimates NJO Kyp > NJO Luke. And he's observed the power of both before that point. Yet we know NJO Luke >~ NJO Kyp.
-Kyp's mini stats are hardly usable for the purposes of this debate since they portray a massively pre prime Kyp. And even then, he still outstrips in the force. Dueling isn't Kyp's greatest attribute anyway. That being said, within his era, he's still a top tier duelist. Furthermore, using mini stats alone as a chain link is wonky.
-The NJO era has solid hype + demonstrable supremacy over other eras. Kyp as a top tier in said era obviously benefits greatly. And he has no shortage of hype. Mini stats can also support what we're told in lore. (For average Jedi anyway)
-Using your own chain (with a slight modification), we can scale Kyp far above Thanaton. NJO Kyp has multiple comparisons and connections that we can use to safely say he's in the same realm as NJO Luke (but ofc lower), who's above the PT titan class. And Kyp only grows after NJO.
-Durron's TK is on another level. In terms of both power and skill.
That concludes my opener. In the coming responses, I plan on looking into more stats, force knowledge, feats, etc.
I look forward to seeing where this goes.
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