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DarthAnt66
DarthAnt66
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Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) Empty Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page)

April 2nd 2021, 3:50 am
Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) Wpw11
DARTH ANGRAL (Darth Plagueis the Wise) -VS- ROTJ! MARA JADE (LT Page)

Character Constraints

A Opener -> 2,500K
B Opener -> 3,125K
A Response1 -> 3,725K
B Response1 -> 4,375K
A Response2 -> 5,000K
B Response2 -> 4,375K
A Response3 -> 3,750K
B Response3 -> 3,125K
A Conclusion -> 1,250K
B Conclusion -> 1,250K

(Opener B should contain counters to Opener A)
(Conclusions should not introduce wholly original arguments)
LT Page
LT Page

Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) Empty Re: Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page)

April 4th 2021, 7:39 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
2,439 characters

Mara is superior to Agent Blackhole:
“The Empire's deadliest agent married to the Rebel Alliance's greatest hero. The irony is thick, but many on both sides relish the symbolism.”
The New Essential Guide to Characters


Lord Cronal is:
- Superior to suit Vader
- Matched 5 ABY Luke
- Rivaled Kar Vastor
- & was consistently compared to Palpatine

9 ABY Mara killed Luuke. Luuke was an equal to 9 ABY Luke. 9 ABY Luke is significantly more powerful than ROTJ Luke, who was at a minimum, an equal to ROTJ Vader. ROTJ Vader is much stronger than ANH Vader.

9 ABY Mara is weaker than ROTJ Mara because she had cut herself off from the force and hadn't trained with a saber in 5 years. She also suffered from depression and was heavily conflicted internally, weakening her connection to the force.

This scaling chain supports the idea that ROTJ Mara is considerably stronger than ANH Vader by a rather large margin.

ANH Vader defeated a TPM Maul clone in the comic Resurrection. Though Vader was outmatched for much of the encounter, and TPM Maul is confirmed by George Lucas to be the stronger of the two Sith, the comic shows that the gap is small. (I’ll elaborate in Part 2).

In the novel Wrath of Darth Maul, a pre-prime Maul hard presses Sidious and nearly kills him. While Maul was rage amped, he was also severely exhausted & injured. Regardless, a pre prime Maul nearly overwhelmed Sidious.

Furthermore, the omniscient 3rd person narrator states Maul is:
- "equally formidable" to Palpatine
- the "deadliest Sith warrior in the galaxy."
- & “An incredible duelist second only, perhaps, to Darth Sidious”

Maul believes:
- he’s “the strongest fighter in the galaxy”
- stands by, but only “slightly behind Palpatine”
- & has nothing left to learn from Palpatine when it comes to battle.

Palpatine claims:
- Maul's “skill as a sword master is peerless."
- “and his skills as a warrior were nonpareil.”
- This all places Maul very close to TPM Palpatine’s level.

Mara > Cronal >> ROTJ Vader < Maul < Sidious

Shatterpoint Mace admitted he couldn’t beat Kar Vastor on his best day, and Prime Vastor is implied to be at best, equal to Lord Shadowspawn.

Mara > Cronal >/= Vastor >> 22 BBY Mace

Both Maul and Mace have quotes placing them near Yoda.

Meanwhile:

Angral < Act 1 Hero of Tython < Acts 2 & 3 <<< 5 years of growth < Shadow of Revan Hero <<<<< Revan

The Hero of Tython is locked below Yoda by numerous supremacy quotes, and both Shadow Revan and TPM Sidious have comparable levels of power. (I can explain why in Part 2).

Angral is nowhere near Yoda level due to being buried beneath Act 1 Hero.

Maul did MUCH better against Sidious than 3638 BBY Hero did against Revan.
Angral <<< Hero <<<<< Revan
Mara ~ Maul < Sidious

Mara is very close to Yoda in power, Angral is nowhere close thanks to Act 1 Hero, who is at his PEAK, capped by Yoda.
Angral is LEAGUES below Shadow Revan due to Hero scaling, while Mara is surprisingly close to TPM Sidious. Both Darksiders having very similar levels of power.
Darth Rymrgand
Darth Rymrgand

Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) Empty Re: Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page)

April 7th 2021, 12:21 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Counters
TNEGTC was released in 2002 while Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor was released 6 years later, in late 2008.  As a result, I see no reason to grant Mara scaling that is solely reliant on this novel. It possesses too much new info in regards to Cronal's skill set and power scaling to use pre-existing supremacy quotes to bind him in good faith and in following with Shedding Limitations.
Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) Mindor

As this faulty claim has no ground to begin with, I will not focus anymore on the scaling that relies on Cronal.

I also disagree with the notion of “TLC Mara >/~ Luuke = 9 ABY Luke”. This is because of the fact that Mara surprised Joruus by charging at Luuke, and Luuke continued focusing on Luke instead of putting up a defense against her charge. She does not match him in an extensive duel.
The Last Command wrote:“Igniting the lightsaber, she charged.
The clone must have heard her coming, of course; the distinctive sound of her lightsaber made that inevitable. But with Skywalker backed up against the wall, the temptation to finish off one opponent first was too great to resist. He swung one last time, his lightsaber slashing into the wall as Skywalker ducked low beneath the blade—
And with a brilliant flash of shattered electronics, the wall exploded outward, over Skywalker’s head and directly into the clone’s face.
Skywalker hadn’t been backing into a wall after all. He’d been backing into one of the throne room’s view-screens.
The clone shrieked—the first sound Mara could remember hearing him make—as he staggered backward. He spun toward the sound of her lightsaber, his face twisted with anger and fear, his eyes still dazzled. He raised his lightsaber to attack.”

The HoT never defeated Darth Angral in single combat. It was the potent duo of HoT and Kira Carsen, the ladder of which is a Child of the Emperor.
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Keep in mind that Children of the Emperor are immensely trained from a young age and as infants possess power with which most Sith lords wish they could possess. Kira by herself should be giving Mara difficulty in combat, and she's the lesser of the three combatants here.
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SWTOR Codex: Children of the Emperor (Consular) wrote:"Despite the Jedi Council's best efforts, only a little is known of the so-called Children of the Emperor. Infants of all species taken before the Sith Emperor, the children are infused with the Emperor's strength, sharing some measure of his thoughts and power for the rest of their lives. They become the Emperor's eyes and ears, and--should the Emperor focus his presence upon them--his puppets. It is believed that the children have some way to hide their dark presence from Jedi senses, meaning they can exist undetected within the Republic."

I disagree with the notion of Mara being anywhere close to TPM Sidious or Maul, as well as the claim that Mara, TPM Sidious, or TPM Maul are anywhere close to Yoda. This is due to a lesser Yoda matching a FAR stronger Sidious. Likewise, I disagree on SoR Revan = TPM Sidious and see no evidence towards Yoda capping the HoT.
Finally, a claim in and of itself has 0 backing if there is no evidence accompanying said claim.

Angral's Might
Mara’s decline following Palpatine’s death is a result of her depression and power still being tied to Palpatine’s will. Her depression is largely cured within TLC, and following precedent elsewhere her power should increase following her freeing herself from Palpatine’s control. She further goes and refines her technique with Kyle Katarn. Theoretically, Mara should be more powerful and skilled in JA than she was by RoTJ
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The Essential Readers Companion wrote:"In the end, Mara strikes down this duplicate. In killing an avatar of Skywalker, Mara releases some of her long-standing animosity toward Luke."

Star Wars Databank: Mara Jade wrote:“A perfectionist, Mara could not abide failure. She wished to make it up to her dark master, but never got that chance. In mid-transit back to Coruscant, Mara felt the Emperor's death through the Force.
Her entire life of high-placed contacts, elevated status, and lifelong purpose collapsed with the defeat of the Empire at the Battle of Endor. Through the Force, Mara received fragmented images of the Emperor's final moments. Luke Skywalker was there... as was Vader... and the two murdered her mentor.
For years, she blamed Skywalker for Palpatine's death and the loss of her purpose.”

The Dark Forces Saga Part 5 wrote:“Over the years convalescing on the planet Byss after his "death" at the Battle of Endor, the resurrected Emperor has been slowly rebuilding his telepathic bond with his Force-servant Mara Jade, incessantly commanding that she destroy Luke Skywalker. However, when Mara killed Luke's evil clone during the campaign against Grand Admiral Thrawn, the telepathic connection she and the Emperor shared was suddenly severed."
Star Wars Databank: Mara Jade wrote:“Still, in her efforts to master her talents, she came across Kyle Katarn, another self-trained Jedi who had ignored Skywalker's invitation. The two trained together for a while, but the dark side crossed their paths.”

Despite JA Mara being superior to her RoTJ counterpart, she is "closely enough matched" to the novice Corran Horn, who has only been in training for a few weeks.
I. Jedi wrote:“That left Kam instructing the rest of us. After lunch we would listen to more Jedi lore from the Holocron, then Mara and I would practice with the lightsaber. While I was not her equal with the shimmering blade, we would have been closely enough matched to seriously hurt each other, so Kam just pitted us against remotes.”

I. Jedi wrote:“Enjoy her stay she did, at least as measured by the purely pleasurable expressions she worse when showing me up on our runs, or holding off one more remote than I possibly could at lightsaber practice.”

I. Jedi wrote:“Feeling Mara Jade’s back pressed against mine, I had to smile, ‘Kam isn’t making this easy, is he?’
Her blue lightsaber hummed then spar as it barred away a remote’s fiery dart. ‘Easy isn’t for Jedi, is it?’
‘Nope.’ I extended my sense as far as I could, taking in most of the darkened hangar space. Kam had closed the door and turned off all the lights, leaving our lightsabers to provide the only illumination. Eight remotes floated out through the darkness, dancing through a complex weave of paths that allowed one to eclipse another. If we did not concentrate enough to project our senses into the hollows behind the emotes or the pillars, we left ourselves pitifully vulnerable.”

Angral has immense experience in combatting other Force sensitives. This is shown by his duel with Darth Baras, Orgus Din, the HoT, as well as the fact that he has survived as long as he has within the millions strong Sith empire. This would provide him an edge against a Mara, who isn’t yet trusted to spar fellow trainees. This would mean that he would far more readily be able to read Mara’s form and style as well as keep her on edge.
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Likewise, Angral is an incredibly cunning and intelligent individual. Which should provide him an edge against Mara, who has lived most of her life as Palpatine’s servant.
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Angral also deals with large amounts of dark side spies and assassins, meaning that he’d more readily know how to counter Mara’s skills in this regard.
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Finally, Lord Praven, a masterful lightsaber duelist, gives the HoT a lesser fight than Angral does. Angral > Praven.
SWTOR Codex: Lord Praven (Knight) wrote:“A Sith pureblood, Lord Praven has trained in the ways of the Force since the earliest years of his youth. Fiercely loyal to the Emperor and an ardent believer in the philosophical teachings of the dark side, Praven is surprisingly calm and collected in his speech and actions. He follows a strict code of personal honor, and unlike many other Sith, he eschews random acts of cruelty and sadism. Despite this, he is sworn to destroy the Jedi and considers them his mortal enemies. During the Sacking of Coruscant, Lord Praven killed Master Usma–one of the Jedi’s most famous duelists–in an epic battle. But he spared Usma’s young Padawan, telling her to seek him out once she had finished her training so they could face each other as equals. When she tracked him down years later, he honored his promise, sending her to the same fate as her Master.”

(Final Character Count: 3117/3125)
Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) AngralGod


Last edited by Darth Rymrgand on April 7th 2021, 12:53 am; edited 2 times in total (Reason for editing : Thanks RNG for suggesting replacing google links with discord links! Images actually show now!)
LT Page
LT Page

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April 7th 2021, 10:15 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
3,717

Mara is deadlier than Agent Blackhole regardless. Blackhole has existed as a character since 1979, and therefore, the NEGTC quote would apply to him. I understand that the feats and powers he displayed in the Shadows of Mindor novel did not exist at the time of the quote, but I don’t see why the author Matthew Stover (who is well versed in EU lore) would retcon the quote. If new evidence were to contradict the quote, then yes, I’d agree the quote is void. But it doesn’t contradict anything and therefore remains valid.

I never said Mara >~ Luuke. I agree, Luuke is stronger. My point is that Mara gave him trouble, and earlier in the trilogy gave OG Luke trouble.

My point is that Mara is >> Vader.

TLC Lukes are much stronger than Vader. The gap between Mara and Lu(u)ke is much smaller than the gap between Lu(u)ke and Vader.

Consider, Mara is deadlier than Cronal, and Cronal was a legitimate threat to Mindor Luke. Luke had already beat Vader and was comparing Cronal to Palpatine.

“Mara’s decline following Palpatine’s death is a result of her depression and power still being tied to Palpatine’s will. Her depression is largely cured within TLC”

Sure, it’s cured by the end of the novel, but all through the trilogy she’s causing Luke trouble. I’m glad we agree she declined.

Why can’t novice Corran Horn be stronger than Angral as well? Man’s a prodigy.

I’ve shown that Mara >> ROTJ Vader
And I’ve shown that the gap between Vader and TPM Maul is small.

Therefore, Mara and Maul (and TPM Sidious by extension) are relatively close in power.

I’ve already shown how close Maul and Sidious are.

“And with the shadow nerve network of meltmassif lacing his body, he had a fundamental connection to the Dark that rivaled Cronal's own.”
―Star War: Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor

Cronal >~ Kar Vastor

“Mace stood motionless except for the heaving of his chest. He knew already he could not match Vastor for raw power. With each breath, he stripped away another layer of restraint and inhibition. Another layer of serenity. He had to move his inner peace out of the way to let in the joy.”
—Shatterpoint

"As you said earlier: Vastor is a difficult man to lie to. He would have known if I was holding back. Then the beating would have been much worse, and he might very well have killed me. What I did was pick a fight I knew I couldn't win."

"Couldn't?"

"Vastor is... very powerful. Half my age and twice my size. Training and experience can compensate only up to a point. And he is naturally ferocious in a way that no Jedi can duplicate."
—Shatterpoint

“Vastor was younger, stronger, faster, and immensely more powerful, and he wielded weapons that could not be harmed by the Jedi blade. Mace couldn't win such a battle on his best day, and this day was far from his best: he was exhausted, badly wounded, and heartsick.”
—Shatterpoint

Vastor > Mace

“He reached out with the Force and slammed shut the Falcon's hatch just as the Vastor body lurched to its feet and reached Luke in one lightning bound. Impossibly powerful hands seized Luke's shoulders as Vastor lifted him like a doll, and shook him and roared rage and bloodlust into his face, and there was nothing human left in Vastor's eyes. He sank his teeth into Luke's throat, and bit down.”
—Luke Skywalker and the Shadow of Mindor

Vastor vs Luke: supports Mara >> Vader

“I could not answer; Vastor has power on the scale of Master Yoda, or young Anakin Skywalker. And I had no desire to debate with Depa on Jedi tradition, and the necessary distinction between dark and light.”
—Shatterpoint

Vastor ~ Anakin/Yoda

Mara > Cronal > Vastor ~ Anakin/Yoda > Mace

“Along with Mace Windu, a senior member of the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful member of the Jedi Order.
—Star Wars Fact File 11“

“Alongside Mace Windu, with whom he served on the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful Master ever to have walked the corridors of the Jedi Temple.
—Star Wars Fact File 11”

“''A respected Jedi with powers on a par with those venerable Yoda, Mace Windu was a senior member of the Jedi High Council, and his wisdom and judgement were legendary.''
—Source: Star Wars Fact File Remake #008”


Mace ~< Yoda

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So, TPM Mace is a peer to Jedi Dooku, and Sidious respects Jedi Dooku as an equal in combat.

Dooku (Mace’s consistent equal) stalemates Yoda. Mara is stronger than this version of Mace, and therefore is also a peer to Sidious and Yoda.

“He made her nervous in a way no other Jedi did, not even Master Yoda. His presence in the Force was breathtaking. Standing beside him was like being buffeted by a gale-and he wasn't even trying. He was just breathing, just being himself. What it felt like to be near Mace Windu when he exerted himself? That was something she wasn't sure she ever wanted to experience.”
—The Clone Wars: Gambit Siege


Mace > Yoda
This takes place before Shatterpoint, during TCW season 1.
Mara > this version of Yoda.

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A wounded and hindered TPM Maul is stated to be evidence the Sith have returned more powerful than ever. This came out in 2011, Vitiate came out in 2010.

Vitiate consistently beats Revan, who is superior to the combined might of peak HoT and half a dozen other protags. This strike team would rape Angral.

Therefore:

Mara ~ Maul > Vitiate > Revan >>>>> Act 1 HoT & Kira > Angral

Finally:

“Alongside Mace Windu, with whom he served on the Jedi Council, Yoda was the most respected and most powerful Master ever to have walked the corridors of the Jedi Temple.”
— (The Official Star Wars Fact File #11) & (The Official Star Wars Fact File #2 - Relaunched)

“Dooku knew that a Master would be judged by the prowess of his Padawan, and he wanted the best of the best. When Yoda had given his approval of the match, Dooku had been satisfied. Another step had been taken toward his goal - to surpass Yoda as the greatest Jedi ever.”
—(Star Wars: Legacy of the Jedi)

“Meet Yoda. He is the most powerful Jedi.”
—(Star Wars: Blast Off!)

“The greatest Jedi: Yoda, defender of the galaxy, master of the Force, and the greatest Jedi who had ever lived.”
“Yoda's ability to use the Force is greater than that of any other Jedi.”
—(Star Wars: The Legendary Yoda)

“When the most powerful Jedi battled against the most powerful Sith, the two sides of the Force clashed in spectacular style. Grand Master Yoda took on Darth Sidious in the Senate building on Coruscant and proved that strength and power have nothing to do with size. The Jedi was much smaller than his Sith opponent, but he used his size and agility to his advantage. Yoda leaped and twirled above Sidious, confusing his enemy and catching him by surprise with skillful lightsaber blows.”
—(Star Wars: Jedi Battles)


Regardless of your “it came later, so it doesn’t count”, all of these quotes support the long-standing G canon and in-universe narrative that Yoda is the most powerful Jedi in history.

Peak HoT IS a Jedi and therefore is capped by Yoda supremacy.

Peak HoT would smash Act 1 HoT. Angral gets buried miles beneath Maul & Yoda, (Mara’s peers).

You’ve listed all these great examples of Angral’s power relative to the other Sith of his era, and I agree that he was one of the top Sith of his time. But none of it matters because he’s nowhere near to Revan, peak HoT, or Vitiate. Let alone, the likes of TPM Maul/Sidious or CW Mace/Yoda (where Mara stands).

His experience as a high-ranking Darth in the Sith Empire won’t help him. He gets bodied by Mara.

Correct me if I’m wrong, but the main issue you have with my argument is the “deadliest agent” quote. You believe that because Cronal’s Mindor showings came 6 years later, the quote shouldn’t include that version of Cronal. I believe it should because neither the NEGTC quote nor Stover’s book contradicts any prior/future publications. Both quote and novel can be true and exist as factual without taking away from continuity.

Ultimately, it will be up to the judges to decide whether or not the quote is void. If they choose to side with you, then my current argument will no longer stand and you will clearly have won this debate. But I’m willing to argue that the quote is valid, and therefore, Mara wins.

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Darth Rymrgand
Darth Rymrgand

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April 9th 2021, 5:26 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Counter

@LT Page wrote:"Mara is deadlier than Agent Blackhole regardless. Blackhole has existed as a character since 1979, and therefore, the NEGTC quote would apply to him. I understand that the feats and powers he displayed in the Shadows of Mindor novel did not exist at the time of the quote, but I don’t see why the author Matthew Stover (who is well versed in EU lore) would retcon the quote. If new evidence were to contradict the quote, then yes, I’d agree the quote is void. But it doesn’t contradict anything and therefore remains valid."

If you genuinely believe this, then I suggest that you give Ant's Blog a reread. At this point, your argument there is grasping at straws.

@LT Page wrote:"My point is that Mara is >> Vader."

There is FAR more licensed LFL material that has the exact opposite view of you here. As such, it is difficult to not say "Mara sucks" because she has countless sources pitting her below Vader, below Sedriss, even below Lumiya. It's an outlier, through and through.

Shadows of the Empire Action Figures: Prince Xizor vs Darth Vader wrote:"Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith, has instilled terror throughout the galaxy since the beginning of the Empire. His devotion to the Emperor and mastery of the dark side gives him more power than any single individual in the galaxy except for the Emperor himself."

Hanbook 3: Dark Empire wrote:"Perhaps the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader, Executor Sedriss remained loyal to the Emperor after the death of his clone over the Rebels' Pinnacle Base."

The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:"Although Palpatine called for the extermination of Jedi and any Force-sensitives who could conceivably challenge him, he did keep a few loyal agents who were trained in the Force. Darth Vader was chief among them, as his primary lieutenant and Sith apprentice."

Official Starships and Vehicles Collection 63 wrote:"In that particular instance, Bane and Sidious were foiled, but Sidious' basic aims remained. He sought to create a network of Force-wielding agents loyal only to him. None would be trained sufficiently to be a threat to Darth Bane's insistence that there only be two Sith, nor would they be a threat to Darth Sidious or his apprentice, Darth Vader."

Dark Side Sourcebook wrote:”Unknown to the Rebels, the Emperor had already laid the groundwork for the perpetual rule of his New Order. He had turned a Jedi into his new dark apprentice, the terrifying Darth Vader. Vader himself trained apprentices. And the Emperor created a corps of loyal, Force-skilled minions to maintain his rule. Most powerful of all, of course, was the Emperor himself.”

Star Wars Insider #65 wrote:”In his distinctive black armor, Vader is an imposing figure. In the entire galaxy, he is second in power only to the Emperor himself.”

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@LT Page wrote:"Why can’t novice Corran Horn be stronger than Angral as well? Man’s a prodigy."
When Corran and Mara, as a duo, are no longer being threatened by and losing to 8 training remotes in total, we can discuss how they do against Lord Tarnis.
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@LT Page wrote:"And I’ve shown that the gap between Vader and TPM Maul is small."
You haven't shown a single scan from the comic. In fact, when looking at the comic it is evident that Maul is well above Vader.
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@LT Page wrote:"A wounded and hindered TPM Maul is stated to be evidence the Sith have returned more powerful than ever. This came out in 2011, Vitiate came out in 2010."
As DK Readers doesn't acknowledge the existence of Vitiate or any Sith predating Darth Ruin, I see no reason to view the source as accurate on any assessment regarding Sith predating Darth Ruin.

Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) Image0

@LT Page wrote:"Vitiate consistently beats Revan, who is superior to the combined might of peak HoT and half a dozen other protags. This strike team would rape Angral."
Act III Voice has countless claims to power and skill growth over the 3 century gap between SWTOR and Revan novel. Likewise, Revan must be far more powerful as of SoR to perform as well as he does against a strike team of individuals who are almost all superior to his 300 year younger counterpart. Thus, neither the Voice or SoR Revan are bound by the DK quote.
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Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) Image0

Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) Image0

Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) Image0

Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) Image0

Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) Image0

SWTOR Codex: The Emperor's Space Station wrote:"The Emperor’s space station is as much temple as fortress. Built by the Empire’s finest engineers–many of whom never left their creation–the station is a blend of modern and incredibly ancient technology. The cloaking device which keeps the station invisible uses Gree technology, while the station’s power core and security features are Rakata in design. The station is vast, comprising an unknown number of decks and chambers. Dozens of rooms store artifacts the Emperor gathered over the centuries, while prisoners whose identities are long forgotten float in stasis chambers. Traditionally, the privileged few who had audiences on the station were brought there by the Emperor’s servants, with no memories of the journey. In the hands of Darth Malgus, the space station has become a new and terrible weapon–but one with many secrets yet to be unlocked. Malgus and his servants have much to learn about their headquarters and its full capabilities."

@LT Page wrote:"Peak HoT IS a Jedi and therefore is capped by Yoda supremacy.

Peak HoT would smash Act 1 HoT. Angral gets buried miles beneath Maul & Yoda, (Mara’s peers)."
Mara is nowhere close to being a peer of any of the individuals that you have named. An army of her would get clapped by the people you named. Likewise, I have yet to see evidence of HoT growth past Act 1 from you. Also no evidence of a peak HoT not being a possible peer of Yoda.

Angral's Might

Let us compare Mara with that of Kira. Both gingers are connected to the minds of their masters. Mara to that of Palpatine and Kira to that of Vitiate. Like all of her fellow "siblings", Kira was given immense training as a child, while also infused with a portion of Vitiate's power. In comparison, Mara was taught limited Force abilities and with the main indicator for skill being that its "less than Vader's". Kira was already trained to be a killer by the age of 6, as she was already was already showing the ability to slay sithspawn from such an early age.

Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) Image0

Like all of her siblings, Kira possesses power with which most sith could only dream of, while Mara possesses "limited Force abilities".

A Guide to the Star Wars Galaxy, 3rd Edition wrote:"She possessed limited Force abilities that diminished after the Emperor's death."

Kira was further trained in the Force by Jedi Master Kiwiiks, followed then by the Hero of Tython. In comparison, Mara was given limited training in that of the Force.

From a holistic standpoint, I feel like Kira Carsen has a lot more going for her in this regard than Mara Jade has going for her. Thus, from this standpoint, it is my belief that Children of the Emperor (TOR) are superior to that of the Emperor's Hand (OT). Kira > Mara

As I have previously proven, with you so far not making any objection to it, Darth Angral has infinitely more dueling experience than Mara Jade (as of RoTJ), has far more experience dealing with assassins, and is fully capable of giving a degree of challenge to the might that is Kira Carsen + Hero of Tython.

TLDR:
RoTJ!Mara has no impressive feats to base an argument off of.
Her superior in JA!Mara is still struggling with training remotes, even when with a second Jedi.
JA!Mara is greater than or on par with RoTJ!Mara because her depression is over, her connection to Palpatine is severed, and she has had time to further refine and develop her technique.
Kira Carsen as of Act 1 has more impressive power and skill accolades than RoTJ!Mara.
Angral has infinitely more combative experience, dueling experience, dealing with assassins, and fighting other Force sensitives than RoTJ!Mara does.
Angral is competitive in a fight against the duo of Kira and the Hero of Tython, both of which are holistically more powerful and more skilled than RoTJ!Mara.
The only existing argument for RoTJ!Mara at this point is a single accolade from the New Essential Guide to Characters, and attempting to extend that to Luke Skywalker and the Shadows of Mindor.
Mara has far more quotes binding her below Vader, and only has a single quote which could, if one ignores the concept of Shedding Limitations, raise her above.
DK Readers Maul quote, which is from a book that doesn't acknowledge the existence of Vitiate, ancient Sith, Tales of the Jedi, etc attempting to bind Voice and Shadow of Revan Revan.

(4263/4375)
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LT Page
LT Page

Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) Empty Re: Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page)

April 12th 2021, 11:10 pm
4,999
Yes, I have read Ant’s blog, and I do genuinely believe that the NEGTC quote is valid, for it’s not contradicted by future LFL publications.
Mara > Cronal.

Both the 1996 Shadows of the Empire and the 2000 Dark Empire Handbook quotes predate the NEGTC quote. Using Ant’s Shedding Limitations standard, both quotes would be retconned.

The 2008 Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia quote doesn’t contradict Mara supremacy either. It only states “Darth Vader was chief among them, as his primary lieutenant and Sith apprentice." This is true, as Mara was not trained to be a Sith, nor was she a military officer. It doesn’t say Vader was the more powerful of the two. He was only Palpatine’s chief dark side adept because he was far more experienced and capable as a military leader. Mara was young and didn’t have the same skill set as Vader.

As for the 2011 Official Starships and Vehicles Collection 63 quote, Sufficiently trained =/= powerful.

True, Mara lacked much of the training Vader had. But so did Luke, who had far less training than Vader, yet managed to defeat him. There are countless examples of characters being less trained, but more powerful than others.

Mara may not have been a threat to Vader, but this doesn’t mean she was less powerful. She was content with her status as the Hand. She believed her calling was more meaningful than Vader’s & had no desire to challenge for his spot.

The 2001 Dark Side Sourcebook quote says nothing about Vader being more powerful than Mara. It just says he trained apprentices.

The 2003 Star Wars Insider #65 quote doesnt contradict Mara supremacy either. We know that Vader is weaker than the Bedlam Spirits, Abeloth, etc, so “second in power” MUST refer to political/military power/influence. This is true. Mara was young/didn’t want a public role in galactic affairs. She was happy with her job as a secret black ops agent. The deadliest agent.

Mara may be less skilled (she’s far younger/less experienced, like Luke), but she is deadlier than Cronal, who is Vader’s superior in combat. Power =/= skill.

Mara was not a Sith, and therefore would be unable to fulfill the Rule of Two. She was good at her job, and Palpatine didn’t want an apprentice he couldn’t control. If Mara had access to Sith secrets, no doubt she’d replace Vader.

The West End RPG quote came out in the 90s and therefore is retconned by Mara supremacy.

None of the quotes you’ve shown retcon the 2002 “deadliest Agent quote”. Mara is deadlier than Cronal, and should scale off his feats/accolades, which put her a great distance above Vader.

Don't underestimate the power of training remote droids.
Especially 8 of them.

Arca Jeth was killed by an old Krath Droid, Kenobi & Anakin were challenged by a few magna droids, the YVH droids rivaled Jedi and took out waves of Vong, Maul practiced with training droids, and then there is PROXY. Starkiller’s training droid. Why can’t 8 training remotes beat a SWTOR Sith?

I agree that Maul > Vader, but if Cronal, Kar Vastor, 22 BBY Mace Windu/Yoda, or...Mara were to take the clones' place, I have no doubt they’d handle Vader just as if not better.

“As DK Readers doesn't acknowledge the existence of Vitiate or any Sith predating Darth Ruin, I see no reason to view the source as accurate on any assessment regarding Sith predating Darth Ruin.”

^ Pls elaborate. The quote was published AFTER Vitiate had already made his debut. Shouldn’t the quote scale Maul above all previous Sith existing OOU at the time, to include Vitiate?

I agree that neither the Voice, nor SoR are bound by the DK quote, but it does give you an idea as to how Maul would compare to that era of Sith (ie. Novel Vitiate level).

I’m no expert on SWTOR scaling (never had a chance to try the game out), but I don’t believe Revan would have progressed all that much over those 3 centuries. Correct me if I’m wrong.

Either way, peak HoT (Angral’s superior) is capped by Yoda according to several IU supremacy quotes. Yoda being Mara’s relative peer. The HoT is a JEDI, and Yoda is stated to be the most powerful Jedi to walk the halls of the Jedi temple. So either: HoT never walked the halls of the Jedi temple (highly unlikely), OR Yoda is the more powerful Jedi. I imagine the judges will side with option 2.

Act 1 HoT  progresses all through Acts 2 & 3, learning new powers/techniques, gaining combat experience, and battling increasingly stronger enemies throughout his journey until he finally defeats Vitiate. No doubt he progressed.

Mara > Cronal >~ Kar Vastor > 22 BBY Mace ~< Yoda > peak HoT > Angral

I agree Mara wasn’t fully trained and Palpatine purposefully limited her force abilities, but there’s no denying she was a capable and deadly killer. She was deadlier than Cronal after all. What she lacked in training, she more than made up for in raw power & talent in unconventional warfare.

Kira may be superior to the average Hand, but so is Mara. She is the Empire’s deadliest Agent. Above the likes of Agent Blackhole, who is more powerful than 22 BBY WINDU. I don’t care about the Children of the Empire. Kira would get wrecked by Mace.

Because Mara is far more powerful than Angral, she will also have superior force aug, allowing her to defeat Angral in a lightsaber duel. No amount of experience in dealing with Assassins will make up for Angral’s sheer lack of firepower. He is simply out matched by a Windu tier combatant.

None of the quotes you’ve shown contradict the NEGTC quote. They are either retconned under Shedding Limitations, or both quotes can be true simultaneously. Until you can prove to me that the quote has been retconned by later material, I will treat the quote as fact. You’ll need to provide evidence showing Cronal progression from ROTJ to Shadows of Mindor (1 year), and then quantify the significance of such growth. Otherwise, I’ll continue to apply Mara’s supremacy quote to that version of Cronal.
Darth Rymrgand
Darth Rymrgand

Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) Empty Re: Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page)

April 13th 2021, 1:05 am

“Deadliest”





@LT Page wrote:"Yes, I have read Ant’s blog, and I do genuinely believe that the NEGTC quote is valid, for it’s not contradicted by future LFL publications.
Mara > Cronal."

Shedding Limitations Part I (DarthAnt66) wrote:"To summarize, event-based scaling is forever binding regardless of future feats and scaling a character may receive, but accolade-based scaling is only binding up to the knowledge known at the time of publication."
Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) Sheddi10

My point here is that accolades do NOT scale a character past any accolades and/or feats that do NOTalready exist at that point in time.

@LT Page wrote:"Both the 1996 Shadows of the Empire and the 2000 Dark Empire Handbook quotes predate the NEGTC quote. Using Ant’s Shedding Limitations standard, both quotes would be retconned."

It is however worth noting that 2 accolades working against Mara already placed the NEGTC quote into question, as it shows favor against her.

@LT Page wrote:"As for the 2011 Official Starships and Vehicles Collection 63 quote, Sufficiently trained =/= powerful."
It also states that she is not a threat to Vader. Unlike Cronal, all of Mara's training comes from Sheev.

@LT Page wrote:"True, Mara lacked much of the training Vader had. But so did Luke, who had far less training than Vader, yet managed to defeat him. There are countless examples of characters being less trained, but more powerful than others."

Luke is also a Skywalker with "nearly unlimited strength in the Force", compared to Mara's "limited Force ability".

A Guide to the Star Wars Galaxy, 3rd Edition wrote:"“From the moment the Emperor learned of Skywalker’s existence, he knew he had to bring him into his fold. Like his father before him, Luke possessed nearly unlimited strength in the Force.”"

A Guide to the Star Wars Galaxy 3rd Edition wrote:"She possessed limited Force abilities that diminished after the Emperor's death."

@LT Page wrote:"Mara may not have been a threat to Vader, but this doesn’t mean she was less powerful. She was content with her status as the Hand. She believed her calling was more meaningful than Vader’s & had no desire to challenge for his spot."
I'm sure that Sheev would've had her replace him if she could surpass him, he was after all looking for a replacement to Vader. If she isn't a threat to Vader, then she isn't powerful enough to challenge him simple as that.

Rebel Force Target wrote:”"Only Lord Vader escaped," he added, enjoying the disappointment that filled the room. He of course knew of the petty jealousies directed at his most favored subordinate. No one could hope to understand the bond that existed between a Sith Master and his dark apprentice. Darth Vader had failed him before, and would surely fail again, but he remained the Emperor's only option. True, if there were another—a being with Vader's power and potential, a Jedi with a susceptible mind and a healthy body who could rule by his Master's side—Vader would become disposable. But the Jedi were gone forever. He had seen to that.”

@LT Page wrote:"Mara may be less skilled (she’s far younger/less experienced, like Luke), but she is deadlier than Cronal, who is Vader’s superior in combat. Power =/= skill."
She is not deadlier than Cronal, as all of his beneficial scaling takes place 6 years after the accolade.

@LT Page wrote:"The West End RPG quote came out in the 90s and therefore is retconned by Mara supremacy."
Once again, the more accolades there are in favor against Mara, the less one can take a singular accolade as reliable. This is because Mara has 1 singular accolade and 0 worthwhile feats.

Darth Sidious, Jedi vs Sith: The Essential Guide to the Force wrote:“As leader of my Dark Side Adepts, Military Executor Sedriss has been the most loyal, and is commended for reviving me here on Byss. But for all his usefulness, Sedriss is only a moderate Force-sensitive, a capable errand boy but hardly the stuff of a Sith apprentice.”
Keep in mind

Handbook 3: Dark Empire wrote:"Perhaps the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader, Executor Sedriss remained loyal to the Emperor after the death of his clone over the Rebels' Pinnacle Base."

Sedriss "perhaps the strongest after Vader" is not Sith apprentice material due to being a "moderate Force-sensitive". I doubt that Sheev would see the inferior Mara as apprentice material, and as loyalty is one of the main attributes for his Hand, loyalty is not a concern of his here.

@LT Page wrote:"I agree that Maul > Vader, but if Cronal, Kar Vastor, 22 BBY Mace Windu/Yoda, or...Mara were to take the clones' place, I have no doubt they’d handle Vader just as if not better."
No.

@LT Page wrote:"None of the quotes you’ve shown retcon the 2002 “deadliest Agent quote”. Mara is deadlier than Cronal, and should scale off his feats/accolades, which put her a great distance above Vader."
The moment you call upon SL, the validity of your quote binding to Mindor Cronal is null and void. End of discussion.

Remote




@LT Page wrote:"Don't underestimate the power of training remote droids.
Especially 8 of them."
It takes more B2 battle droids to kill an average Jedi per GL. Clearly 8 of them isn't impressive.

Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) Image0

@LT Page wrote:"Arca Jeth was killed by an old Krath Droid, Kenobi & Anakin were challenged by a few magna droids, the YVH droids rivaled Jedi and took out waves of Vong, Maul practiced with training droids, and then there is PROXY. Starkiller’s training droid. Why can’t 8 training remotes beat a SWTOR Sith?"
Don't see how any of these are comparable to remotes.

Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) Image0

Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) Image0

Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) Image0

@LT Page wrote:"I agree that Maul > Vader, but if Cronal, Kar Vastor, 22 BBY Mace Windu/Yoda, or...Mara were to take the clones' place, I have no doubt they’d handle Vader just as if not better."
No

SWTOR




@LT Page wrote:"^ Pls elaborate. The quote was published AFTER Vitiate had already made his debut. Shouldn’t the quote scale Maul above all previous Sith existing OOU at the time, to include Vitiate?"
As DK Readers believes the Sith 2,000 years old, it is shown to be IU limited. Furthermore, heavy doubt that DK Readers even knows that Vitiate exists.

@LT Page wrote:"I agree that neither the Voice, nor SoR are bound by the DK quote, but it does give you an idea as to how Maul would compare to that era of Sith (ie. Novel Vitiate level)."
Concession Accepted.

@LT Page wrote:"Either way, peak HoT (Angral’s superior) is capped by Yoda according to several IU supremacy quotes. Yoda being Mara’s relative peer. The HoT is a JEDI, and Yoda is stated to be the most powerful Jedi to walk the halls of the Jedi temple. So either: HoT never walked the halls of the Jedi temple (highly unlikely), OR Yoda is the more powerful Jedi. I imagine the judges will side with option 2."
Fact Files is IU limited, also Coruscant Jedi Temple was destroyed while HoT was in training, and isn't even repaired by KoTET. Mara isn't a peer of Yoda. Also no evidence of HoT being Angral's superior.

@LT Page wrote:"Act 1 HoT  progresses all through Acts 2 & 3, learning new powers/techniques, gaining combat experience, and battling increasingly stronger enemies throughout his journey until he finally defeats Vitiate. No doubt he progressed."
He actually regressed.
Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) Image0
Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) Image0

Mara




@LT Page wrote:"I agree Mara wasn’t fully trained and Palpatine purposefully limited her force abilities, but there’s no denying she was a capable and deadly killer."
Deadly to fodder for all I care.

@LT Page wrote:"She was deadlier than Cronal after all"
Deadlier than 2002 Cronal, who is irrelevant to this discussion. Simply means Cronal was even more fodder prior to Mindor.

@LT Page wrote:"What she lacked in training, she more than made up for in raw power & talent in unconventional warfare."
Raw power isn't helping her here, same with talent in unconventional warfare.

@LT Page wrote:"She is the Empire’s deadliest Agent."
Per one source, with infinite more saying the opposite.

@LT Page wrote:"Above the likes of Agent Blackhole, who is more powerful than 22 BBY WINDU"
Citation for 02 Blackhole > Mace?

@LT Page wrote:"Kira would get wrecked by Mace."
Baseless claim.

@LT Page wrote:"Because Mara is far more powerful than Angral"
You have yet to prove an ounce of evidence towards this claim.

@LT Page wrote:"No amount of experience in dealing with Assassins will make up for Angral’s sheer lack of firepower."
Weird, you already conceded to Angral's superiority in dueling skill, knowledge, experience, etc. "Firepower" is a baseless claim.

@LT Page wrote:"He is simply out matched by a Windu tier combatant."
No evidence towards this and Mara is not a Windu combatant.

@LT Page wrote:"None of the quotes you’ve shown contradict the NEGTC quote."
You can't dismiss them without SL, with SL your quote is irrelevant.

@LT Page wrote:"They are either retconned under Shedding Limitations, or both quotes can be true simultaneously."
Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) 1076326320

@LT Page wrote:"Until you can prove to me that the quote has been retconned by later material, I will treat the quote as fact. You’ll need to provide evidence showing Cronal progression from ROTJ to Shadows of Mindor (1 year), and then quantify the significance of such growth. Otherwise, I’ll continue to apply Mara’s supremacy quote to that version of Cronal."
This shows that you don't understand SL.

TLDR



LT Page has yet to provide any supporting evidence for Mara besides his NEGTC quote, and is relying on SL to dismiss any opposing quotes.
SL states that accolades to not bind feats and future accolades that do not exist.
NEGTC quote is only relevant due to a novel that releases 6 years later, nullified by SL.
All of my evidence in favor of Angral, Kira, or HoT has yet to be disproven.

(Word Count: 3087/4375)
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Last edited by Darth Rymrgand on April 13th 2021, 1:26 am; edited 3 times in total (Reason for editing : Rereading I noticed a grammatically error. Second time to fix the formatting.)
LT Page
LT Page

Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) Empty Re: Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page)

April 14th 2021, 8:27 am
1897

“My point here is that accolades do NOT scale a character past any accolades and/or feats that do NOTalready exist at that point in time.”

I understand your point. Cronals Mindor feats/accolades cannot be applied to Mara.

“It is however worth noting that 2 accolades working against Mara already placed the NEGTC quote into question, as it shows favor against her.”

Under SL, these quotes would be retconned.

“Luke is also a Skywalker with "nearly unlimited strength in the Force", compared to Mara's "limited Force ability".”

This is because Palpatine purposefully prevented her from reaching her true potential.

“I'm sure that Sheev would've had her replace him if she could surpass him, he was after all looking for a replacement to Vader. If she isn't a threat to Vader, then she isn't powerful enough to challenge him simple as that.”

Good point. If Mara were more powerful than Vader, it would make sense for Palpatine to replace him.


She is not deadlier than Cronal, as all of his beneficial scaling takes place 6 years after the accolade.”
Without the quote I have no basis for an argument to stand on.

“Once again, the more accolades there are in favor against Mara, the less one can take a singular accolade as reliable. This is because Mara has 1 singular accolade and 0 worthwhile feats.”
That is a fair assessment of continuity. 1 quotes validity < multiple quotes validity.

Mara does have feats, but none of them are super impressive by SWTOR standards. For every 1 Mara feat I share, I’m sure you have a dozen feats to match mine. Feats achieved by Sub-Angral Sith/Jedi.

And for every decent ROTJ Mara feat, you have ESB Mara outmatched and fleeing by a group of thugs, planetary police, or palace guards. She’s unable to take down an AT-ST without the aid of a Stormtrooper squad.

“Sedriss "perhaps the strongest after Vader" is not Sith apprentice material due to being a "moderate Force-sensitive". I doubt that Sheev would see the inferior Mara as apprentice material, and as loyalty is one of the main attributes for his Hand, loyalty is not a concern of his here.”
Not only is this retconned by SL, but “perhaps” means maybe. It’s not concrete.

Whay makes you think Cronal, Kar Vastor, Mace, or Yoda would be unable to match the TPM Maul Clone? Debate aside. I’m just genuinely curious. Doesn’t make sense for such a competent and experienced debater to think otherwise.

“The moment you call upon SL, the validity of your quote binding to Mindor Cronal is null and void. End of discussion.”

It will be up to the judges to decide. I believe Mara should scale off Mindor Cronal. It’s too late in the debate for me to introduce a new argument. The Mindor scaling is all I have to go off of. Without it, I lose.

“It takes more B2 battle droids to kill an average Jedi per GL. Clearly 8 of them isn't impressive.”

The average Jedi must be > Angral.

“Don't see how any of these are comparable to remotes.”

They are designed to challenge force users. Besides, it was only training, so it’s possible Mara and Corran weren’t going all out/focused on practicing a certain new technique.

“No”

Yes.

“As DK Readers believes the Sith 2,000 years old, it is shown to be IU limited. Furthermore, heavy doubt that DK Readers even knows that Vitiate exists.”

Okay, that makes sense. So there’s nothing of substance comparing Maul to Vitiate.

“He actually regressed.”

Please elaborate on those scans. I don’t see how he regressed.

Mace beats Kira because of the Yoda Jedi supremacy quote I’ve shown you.

“You can't dismiss them without SL, with SL your quote is irrelevant”

Seems I’ve stuck myself in a pickle. Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) 1220391476

I’m not sure where to go from here.
Darth Rymrgand
Darth Rymrgand

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April 14th 2021, 11:08 am

Discussion


@LT Page wrote:"I understand your point. Cronals Mindor feats/accolades cannot be applied to Mara."
Concession Accepted

@LT Page wrote:"Under SL, these quotes would be retconned."
Issue is 1 quote vs 5, 6, 7, etc quotes, even under SL it is hard to take the one quote seriously, especially when it isn't repeated in the future.

@LT Page wrote:"This is because Palpatine purposefully prevented her from reaching her true potential."
She is still <<< Luke in potential, which would mean that she can't pull off stunts that he could.

@LT Page wrote:"Good point. If Mara were more powerful than Vader, it would make sense for Palpatine to replace him."
Indeed.

@LT Page wrote:"Without the quote I have no basis for an argument to stand on."
If I were you, I would take this as a lesson to not only ensure that my core argument was strong and couldn't be countered, but that I have several supporting/backup arguments should the main one not stand.


@LT Page wrote:"That is a fair assessment of continuity. 1 quotes validity < multiple quotes validity."
I'm glad that you see the reasoning here.

@LT Page wrote:"Mara does have feats, but none of them are super impressive by SWTOR standards. For every 1 Mara feat I share, I’m sure you have a dozen feats to match mine. Feats achieved by Sub-Angral Sith/Jedi."
Would've helped your case to show at least some of them.


@LT Page wrote:"And for every decent ROTJ Mara feat, you have ESB Mara outmatched and fleeing by a group of thugs, planetary police, or palace guards. She’s unable to take down an AT-ST without the aid of a Stormtrooper squad."
And thus would need to argue a growth case.

@LT Page wrote:"Not only is this retconned by SL, but “perhaps” means maybe. It’s not concrete."
Another quote placing the "deadliest" in question isn't good for the "deadliest" argument. It still defends the idea that at best, Mara is #3, being behind Vader.

@LT Page wrote:"Whay makes you think Cronal, Kar Vastor, Mace, or Yoda would be unable to match the TPM Maul Clone? Debate aside. I’m just genuinely curious. Doesn’t make sense for such a competent and experienced debater to think otherwise."
I think that Cronal's power and skillset are massively warped and lopsided to where he is by far at his best as a puppet master behind the scenes. My understanding of Kar Vastor is that his state in Shatterpoint is not his default, and that Mace is in a massively weakened/exhausted state during the novel. TCW S1 Mace cucks himself to Jedi Dooku, who was still below Yoda combatively.

@LT Page wrote:"It will be up to the judges to decide. I believe Mara should scale off Mindor Cronal. It’s too late in the debate for me to introduce a new argument. The Mindor scaling is all I have to go off of. Without it, I lose."
I think that a reveal such as that of Cronal hiding his true powers from even Palpatine makes it hard to argue that the quote extends to such a new reveal, even without SL. We don't see Cronal pulling off the same stunts in any other material.

@LT Page wrote:"The average Jedi must be > Angral."
With the scaling, accolades and hype surrounding upper level Jedi and Sith in this era, that is an impossibility.

@LT Page wrote:"They are designed to challenge force users. Besides, it was only training, so it’s possible Mara and Corran weren’t going all out/focused on practicing a certain new technique."
Issue is I don't see anything within the text to imply that, even Kam says that they aren't doing well enough.

@LT Page wrote:"Yes."
No.

@LT Page wrote:"Okay, that makes sense. So there’s nothing of substance comparing Maul to Vitiate."
Indeed.

@LT Page wrote:"Please elaborate on those scans. I don’t see how he regressed."
Between Act III and SoR the HoT is hindered as a result of his trauma surrounding his time in servitude to Vitiate, which actively lessens his fighting ability.

@LT Page wrote:"Mace beats Kira because of the Yoda Jedi supremacy quote I’ve shown you."
Btw you haven't shown the quote that does bind SoR HoT. TPM Mace is still a long way from Yoda combatively, and its only Office!Mace that could arguably be equal.

@LT Page wrote:"Seems I’ve stuck myself in a pickle."
Indeed.

TLDR

Opponent admits that NEGTC/Mindor scaling is all he has going for him.
Opponent concedes to the point that the quote can't be extended to Mindor.
Mara has no relevant feats in word of opponent.
JA!Mara, RoTJ!Mara's superior struggles with far fewer droids shooting at her than an average Jedi Knight is said to be George Lucas.
Maul doesn't have any scaling binding him to novel Vitiate, Act III Voice, or SoR Revan.
None of Angral's feats and accolades have been debunked, same with Kira and HoT.
Opponent has failed to substantiate growth for HoT past Act 1, or debunk a regression claim.
Opponent has agreed with JA!Mara's superiority.
Opponent has agreed that Angral has a MASSIVE experience advantage.
Nothing places Mara as a peer or Angral, Kira, or HoT.
Opponent failed to substantiate any arguments that either disprove or counter my holistic accolade comparison that brought Kira > Mara in power, skill, and training.

(2901/3125)
Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) Image0
LT Page
LT Page

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April 15th 2021, 8:38 am
694

GG Plag.

It’s pretty clear you’ve had me beat since your second response. I might as well go down fighting, but the only thing I really disagree with you on is Mace. I’d argue he’s a lot closer to Yoda than you may think.

“He made her nervous in a way no other Jedi did, not even Master Yoda. His presence in the Force was breathtaking. Standing beside him was like being buffeted by a gale-and he wasn't even trying. He was just breathing, just being himself. What it felt like to be near Mace Windu when he exerted himself? That was something she wasn't sure she ever wanted to experience.”
—The Clone Wars: Gambit Siege


I’ve already shown you countless quotes for Yoda being the most powerful Jedi, scaling him above Kira and the Jedi Knight, the HoT. But I know they aren’t popular among fans of Shedding Limitations. You can argue the quotes were licensed before the OOU existence of the SWTOR cast, but we can agree to disagree.

I understand that SoR HoT has regressed. But Act 3 > Act 1, correct?

Regardless, good game 🤝 and good luck in your next debate. You’ve taught me a lot, thank you.
Darth Rymrgand
Darth Rymrgand

Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page) Empty Re: Stomper Showdown R2 #1 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) VS ROTJ! Mara Jade (LT Page)

April 16th 2021, 11:17 pm

Conclusion


Good debate LT Page! For what it's worth, I respect the fact that you stuck this debate out to the end.
If you are curious, we can discuss your Mace question in DMs.

TLDR

Opponent admits that NEGTC/Mindor scaling is all he has going for him.
Opponent concedes to the point that the quote can't be extended to Mindor.
Mara has no relevant feats in word of opponent.
JA!Mara, RoTJ!Mara's superior struggles with far fewer droids shooting at her than an average Jedi Knight is said to be George Lucas.
Maul doesn't have any scaling binding him to novel Vitiate, Act III Voice, or SoR Revan.
None of Angral's feats and accolades have been debunked, same with Kira and HoT.
Opponent has failed to substantiate growth for HoT past Act 1, or debunk a regression claim.
Opponent has agreed with JA!Mara's superiority.
Opponent has agreed that Angral has a MASSIVE experience advantage.
Nothing places Mara as a peer or Angral, Kira, or HoT.
Opponent failed to disprove Kira > Mara.

(970/1250)
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