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Nute_Chethray
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Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Empty Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan)

July 8th 2021, 10:29 am
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Wpw11
DARTH ANGRAL (Darth Plagueis the Wise) -VS- K'KRUHK (AaylaSecuraFan)
Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) InShot_20210708_105247717

Character Constraints

A Opener -> 3,500K
B Opener -> 4,125K
A Response1 -> 4,725K
B Response1 -> 5,375K
A Response2 -> 6,000K
B Response2 -> 5,375K
A Response3 -> 4,750K
B Response3 -> 4,125K
A Conclusion -> 2,250K
B Conclusion -> 2,250K

(Opener B should contain counters to Opener A)
(Conclusions should not introduce wholly original arguments)
Would be Lord
Would be Lord

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Empty Re: Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan)

July 9th 2021, 6:20 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)

Vanguard of the Empire


Fulminiss

As of the comic Threat of Peace, Darth Angral is a rough combative equal, with an edge in power, of the Sith Lord Darth Baras.

SWTOR Comic: Threat of Peace:

This is significant because (ToC) Baras scales directly over the Sith Lord Fulminiss.

SWTOR:

This is important because Lord Fulminiss is one of the greatest sorcerers, has knowledge to make the Dark Council envious, and is viewed as a true threat to the Act III Hero of Tython by Lord Scourge himself.

SWTOR:

Furthermore, Lord Fulminiss shows himself to be excellent at his art feat wise, even preparing to wipe out all life on the planet of Voss.

SWTOR JK Act 3:

This mental performance by Lord Fulminiss is significant because the few telepathic feats that we see performed in the Legacy era are performed by late Legacy Cade Skywalker and Darth Wyyrlock III.

Legacy Cade :

Not only is Cade Skywalker only showing this feat on a singular character, he is taking more effort in doing so, and doing less total damage to said individual character's mind.

Wyyrlock:

As such, one would reach a scaling chain such as the following. ToC Angral ~ ToC Baras > Pre-Boost Baras >> Fulminiss >>>> Cade < K'Kruhk

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Stats

Former Jedi Master Kol Skywalker is highly regarded in universe as the top of the order, along with being a fully trained Skywalker,  of the legacy era, and thus is one of the few places where K'Kruhk's standing is capped.

Skywalker Accolades:

Kol's stats are shown below, along with K'Kruhk's as of the Clone Wars (he does not possess stats within the Legacy era).

Legacy era stats:

SWTOR never got an RPG guide, so I can't compare SWTOR's stats, I can however compare KOTOR's and attempt to scale from there. As one can see, Atris, The Jedi Exile, and Lucien Draay are all held within the same ballpark as Kol Skywalker within the s-canon realm. In fact, Bastila Shan is favored over all of them.

KOTOR Stats:

Obviously the writers for the Legacy era Campaign Guide aren't afraid of giving characters from this era high CL and stats.

Legacy Krayt and Roan Fel:

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Shan Bloodline

Bastila Shan is a extremely powerful Jedi, with great gift and skill to bear.

Bastila:

Many of her descendants are believed to have inherited her (and Revan's) Force power. This includes the Jedi Grandmaster Satele Shan.

Satele:

Alongside all of this, Satele is a veteran of a 28 year long spanning war.

Great Galactic War:

It is not unreasonable to presume that by the end of the war, that Jedi Knight Satele Shan is greatly more masterful and experienced than her ancestor in Bastila, while also inheriting her ancestor's Force strength. Thus, one can can predict a great deal of superiority of Satele Shan over her ancestor in Bastila Shan.

As I showed previously, the writer of Threat of Peace holds both Angral and Baras over Satele as of the ToC. In addition, Satele admits inferiority to the Hero of Tython after he defeats Angral (with help).

Angral Superiority:

Thus it is fairly reasonable to suggest a scaling chain such as Angral > ToC Satele >> Bastila Shan > Kol Skywalker >~ K'Kruhk


TLDR

Darth Angral is superior to Lord Fulminiss and ToC Satele Shan.
Lord Fulminiss displays far superior telepathic feats than either Cade Skywalker or Darth Wyyrlock III.
ToC Satele should be far superior to her ancestor Bastila Shan.
Bastila Shan is heavily supported to being > Kol Skywalker in S-canon stats.
Kol's status as a Skywalker and as the senior Jedi Council member supports the concept of Kol > K'Kruhk.

Total Character Count: 3260/3500
Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0
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July 12th 2021, 5:29 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

The Hero of Tython


Regarding your point of Lord Fulminiss, I completely disagree with the idea that someone who can challenge Act III HoT to be below Darth Angral, especially since that would necessitate that Act I HoT to be above his Act III self, despite him being far more powerful, experienced, and knowledgeable in the Force.

Act I HoT defeated Darth Angral, and right after had to defeat Kira while she was possessed by the Emperor. Kira’s help against Angral would be minimal, since the Hero was already the strongest Jedi Orgus/Morr had ever seen, and only grew after said statement.

The Old Republic, Orgus Din wrote:“The Force is strong in you. Stronger than I've seen in decades.”

The Old Republic, Bengel Morr wrote:“You are stronger than any Jedi I have known.”



Act II HoT then is selected as one of the Jedi to go after the Emperor, each Jedi of this strike team are the most powerful of the Order.


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The Old Republic Encyclopedia wrote:With Grand Master Satele Shan's support, Master Braga assembles a strike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the order. Their goal is to pinpoint the Emperor's hidden fortress, capture the Sith leader alive, and turn him to the light side.

Act II HoT then stalemates Lord Scourge in a duel, Scourge who was the Emperor’s personal executioner (who should be well above Angral).

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Lord Scourge Codex Entry wrote:As the Sith Emperor’s personal executioner, the grimly fatalistic Lord Scourge has personally killed more than a hundred Jedi–and ten times as many Sith. Even the most powerful members of the Dark Council avoid offending the man bearing the title “the Emperor’s Wrath.

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The Old Republic wrote:You fought Lord Scourge to a standstill until he broke off the battle for some reason. See what he has to say in the throne room of the Emperor's fortress.

Act II HoT fails to stop the Emperor, becomes a Sith Lord and trains for months in the dark side.

The Old Republic wrote:The spirit of Master Orgus explained that during your confrontation with the Emperor, your mind was dominated, and you were temporarily turned to the dark side by his power. You’ve recovered your senses, but the Sith still believe you to be a slave to the Emperor’s will. Overseer Chaskar arrived to continue your training in the ways of the Sith.

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Act II HoT then breaks from the Emperor’s TP, flees with Scourge and battles and defeats one of the Jedi who accompanied him and fell to the dark side (who naturally became more powerful). Then, despite all these showings and growth, Scourge believes that Lord Fulminiss is a threat to an Act III Hero, who is exponentially above Act I Hero.

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It is unreasonable to believe that Lord Fulminiss, the greatest Sorcerer of the Empire, is below Darth Baras Pre-ToC. He not only has a supremacy quote over every sorcerer in the Empire, but also is a threat to a far more powerful Hero (who himself is the most powerful Jedi in decades).

The Old Republic, Darth Acina wrote:"They are the only surviving work of the Empire's greatest alchemist, Lord Fulminiss. A Jedi Knight on Voss deprived us of his genius."

Bastila Shan


Now, I want to bring an example to compare to your own usage of Bastila, that is Kol Skywalker. Despite him training for far more time than Anakin Skywalker, and despite being a part of the same family that had some of the greatest potentials ever, he still was only on par with S1 Anakin per stats.

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Per your logic, Kol should be above Anakin, and although you can argue that Anakin is more gifted than Kol, it doesn’t take away the fact that Kol is a Skywalker too and trained for forty or more years under the Jedi. While Anakin only trained for about 10 years or so up to Season 1. Bastila had already mastered fighting styles and one of the most difficult Force techniques by her Padawan years, and only grew with time after becoming a Jedi Knight, she isn’t less masterful than Satele, as she had already showed a natural affinity with the Force and mastered several techniques by that point.

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Knights of the Old Republic Prima Guide wrote:Bastila Shan is the quintessential Jedi: trained from a very young age and gifted with a natural ability with the Force that has given her both renown and considerable pride.

Knights of the Old Republic, Carth Onasi wrote:"But Bastila's young, and she has a powerful command of the Force."

So Bastila isn’t far below Satele Shan. There is no definitive proof that binds Bastila below Satele. However, this ties to K’Kruhk.

The Grand Master


Asajj Ventress, of all enemies ever faced by the Jedi, was second only to Dooku. That caps DS Bastila, who was way more powerful than her LS self (TK throwing Jolee, Juhani and Revan on Rakata Prime).

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Asajj Ventress > DS Bastila >> LS Bastila

K’Kruhk stats during the Clone Wars put him a little above Asajj Ventress stats, that is mid-war K’Kruhk per the CG. K’Kruhk, as a Jedi General, goes on to fight other campaigns.

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Therefore:

ROTS K’Kruhk > Mid-War K’Kruhk > ~ Asajj Ventress > DS Bastila >> LS Bastila

K’Kruhk then goes on to train several Jedi during his time in the NJO, a NJO who also had access to knowledge that was buried in Ossus for thousands of years. Master Yoda notes that training younglings and other Padawans was a way to a Jedi improve himself too. So:

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NJO K’Kruhk >> ROTS K’Kruhk > Mid-War K’Kruhk > ~ Asajj Ventress > DS Bastila >> LS Bastila

Then K’Kruhk is selected as the Grand Master of the Order, which is a title bestowed upon the greatest of all masters.

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Grand Master K’Kruhk >> NJO K’Kruhk >> ROTS K’Kruhk > Mid-War K’Kruhk >~ Asajj Ventress > DS Bastila >> LS Bastila

It is unclear whether Satele surpasses Bastila or not, as the former is seen as a legendary figure by SWTOR’s time, but Bastila is certainly capped by the HoT, who defeated Angral in combat.

Grand Master K’Kruhk >> NJO K’Kruhk >> ROTS K’Kruhk > Mid-War K’Kruhk >~ Asajj Ventress > DS Bastila >> LS Bastila < HoT > Darth Angral
Would be Lord
Would be Lord

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Empty Re: Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan)

July 12th 2021, 10:04 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Rebuttal

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Regarding your point of Lord Fulminiss, I completely disagree with the idea that someone who can challenge Act III HoT to be below Darth Angral, especially since that would necessitate that Act I HoT to be above his Act III self, despite him being far more powerful, experienced, and knowledgeable in the Force."
All that this means is that there is context behind why Fulminiss is a threat. Likewise, you must provide some measure of evidence to support a large gap between Act 1 and Act 3 Hero.

Hero:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Act I HoT defeated Darth Angral, and right after had to defeat Kira while she was possessed by the Emperor. Kira’s help against Angral would be minimal, since the Hero was already the strongest Jedi Orgus/Morr had ever seen, and only grew after said statement."
Fighting a possessed Kira doesn't mean that she was not needed. Hero being the "strongest" Jedi isn't relevant to whether Kira actually provides much needed help against Angral. This is one of the very few times in SWTOR where a companion's aid in battle is recognized, not just one but thrice. Kira's own dialogue does not sound like one whose aid was irrelevant.

Kira Aid:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Act II HoT then is selected as one of the Jedi to go after the Emperor, each Jedi of this strike team are the most powerful of the Order."
Cool, half of the team is shown to be pathetic and Kira has scaling in resisting the Emperor's control far better than any of the strike team does.

Strike Team:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Act II HoT then stalemates Lord Scourge in a duel, Scourge who was the Emperor’s personal executioner (who should be well above Angral)"
Over a massively powerful dark side nexus. Scourge would perform worse elsewhere. None of this disproves that Angral would still be a valid threat to the HoT.

Nexus:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Act II HoT fails to stop the Emperor, becomes a Sith Lord and trains for months in the dark side."
Have you played the Rishi mission? This training is a mental scar and provides 0 benefit to the HoT as of Act 3.

Trauma:


AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Then, despite all these showings and growth, Scourge believes that Lord Fulminiss is a threat to an Act III Hero, who is exponentially above Act I Hero."
The only reasoning that you've provided any reasoning for is dark side training, which is irrelevant. I can buy act 1 Hero < act 3 Hero, but see no reason to see an exponential gap.

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"It is unreasonable to believe that Lord Fulminiss, the greatest Sorcerer of the Empire, is below Darth Baras Pre-ToC. He not only has a supremacy quote over every sorcerer in the Empire, but also is a threat to a far more powerful Hero (who himself is the most powerful Jedi in decades)."
Neither Baras nor Angral are sorcerers, nor are they alchemists. Nothing that you've cited goes against Sel-Makor calling Baras a "greater Sith" than Fulminiss.

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Despite him training for far more time than Anakin Skywalker, and despite being a part of the same family that had some of the greatest potentials ever, he still was only on par with S1 Anakin per stats."
Kol's stats are higher than S1 Anakin's in key areas such as Force (7 vs 6), Use The force, 2 extra Jedi ranks (2 Jedi Master vs 2 pilot), etc. This should suggest that Kol is a greater Force user than S1 Anakin. In contrast to the Shan bloodline, we know that while all Skywalkers are strong in the Force, there are still big gaps in potential. In fact, Satele is a descendant of two legendary Force users, and thus also inherits some of Revan's power.

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Bastila had already mastered fighting styles and one of the most difficult Force techniques by her Padawan years, and only grew with time after becoming a Jedi Knight, she isn’t less masterful than Satele, as she had already showed a natural affinity with the Force and mastered several techniques by that point."

You have provided 0 evidence for this. Need I remind you of the concept of wargrowth? Unlike Kol vs Anakin, there isn't evidence to suggest that Satele is a lesser prodigy than Bastila.

War Growth:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"So Bastila isn’t far below Satele Shan. There is no definitive proof that binds Bastila below Satele."
You haven't any sufficient evidence to dismiss the claim. If there are two beings with equal, or similar, potential and one has more than double the time to grow, on top of spending far more time in conflict, it is reasonable to presume that the one with more time and conflict will have developed their abilities far beyond the other.

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Asajj Ventress, of all enemies ever faced by the Jedi, was second only to Dooku. That caps DS Bastila, who was way more powerful than her LS self"
Within the S-canon realm, Bastila's stats are well above both K'kruhk and Asajj Ventress. In addition, it is clear that there are several characters that are not meant to be bound below Ventress, and some even by Dooku. Suffice to say, this singular quote is an outlier and is the dissenting opinion.

Disagreements:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Then K’Kruhk is selected as the Grand Master of the Order, which is a title bestowed upon the greatest of all masters."
Satele was also a Grand Master of the Order. K'Kruhk was only granted this title after the death of Kol.


AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"It is unclear whether Satele surpasses Bastila or not, as the former is seen as a legendary figure by SWTOR’s time"
This is very much cap.

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Sacking of Coruscant

As of the Sacking of Coruscant, Angral is a clear superior of the Sith Lord Darth Malgus.

Malgus Wojak:

The Sith Lord Darth Sidious has access to a fragment of Darth Malgus' journal from prior to the Sacking of Coruscant.

Book of the Sith:

The knowledge that Sidious gained from Malgus' journal was key to discovering the power of Force Storms.

Book of Anger:

So Darth Malgus, a confirmed inferior of the Sith Lord Darth Angral, was not only the key to Palpatine's "ultimate power" but he also greatly impressed Palpatine in terms of both knowledge and power. This in itself should support the notion of Angral > Malgus > Asajj, if not have Malgus over even more PT era combatants.

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TLDR

Opponent argues vast growth between acts 1 and 3 for HoT, provides no reasoning other than dark side training.
Ignores that HoT had PTSD from time under Emperor's domination and thus hid memories of time under his control.
Opponent gave 0 contention for Fulminiss vs Legacy comparison.
Opponent argues that sorcerer and alchemist quotes bind non-sorcerers and non-alchemists.
Nothing contradicts Sel-Makor's claim of Baras being "greater than Fulminiss".
Kol's stats are stronger in the Force and highlight greater training and experience than TCW S1 Anakin.
Opponent argues Bastila ~ Satele.
I argue that nearly 30 years of more experience and time to further develop her talents would give Satele a large edge over her legendary ancestor.
1 quote for Asajj > all previous threats to Jedi
Contradicted by countless sources.
Angral > Malgus.
Book of the Sith hypes Malgus immensely.

Character Limit: 4259/4721

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July 17th 2021, 11:05 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Scourge


Plag wrote:All that this means is that there is context behind why Fulminiss is a threat. Likewise, you must provide some measure of evidence to support a large gap between Act 1 and Act 3 Hero.

I will first look at Scourge to explain the gap. He is pretty much above every other Sith in the Empire, where even the most powerful of the Dark Council fear him, he was specifically tasked to execute the most powerful Sith/Jedi that rose in the galaxy, and after Scourge fled, the most powerful Sith Lords of the Empire were considered to become the Wrath, yet no one was chosen.

Quotes wrote:"He's sending his personal executioner for me. His wrath incarnate. I'll be punished for my crimes."
"Who is the Emperor's Wrath? A Sith Lord?"
"A ghost. Older than anyone except the Emperor himself. Even the Dark Council fears him."

-- Sajar and the Hero of Tython, The Old Republic

"Even the most powerful members of the Dark Council avoid offending the man bearing the title, “the Emperor’s Wrath.”

-- Lord Scourge Codex Entry, The Old Republic

"After Lord Scourge shed the mantle of the Wrath under mysterious circumstances, the Emperor's Hand set out to find a replacement. Millions of the galaxy's most powerful Sith were considered, but ultimately only one would prove worthy to serve the Emperor."

-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia

"As the Sith Emperor’s personal executioner, the grimly fatalistic Lord Scourge has personally killed more than a hundred Jedi–and ten times as many Sith.

-- Lord Scourge Entry, The Old Republic

"Entire generations of the Sith Dark Council have passed under the watchful eyes of the Emperor's personal executioner, the grim Lord Scourge. As the feared "Emperor's Wrath," Scourge enforced his Master's will for more than three centuries. When a Jedi grew too powerful or a Sith too ambitious, Scourge eliminated the threat. Conspiracy theories held that Scourge was a title rather than a man, for even pureblooded Sith are mortal... However, the Dark Council knew the truth. There was only one Scourge, his life prolonged by Sith alchemy, and his battle prowess enhance by the Emperor."
-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia

Scourge was an expert swordsman; at the Academy even the instructors had been reluctant to face him in the training ring. When the dark side flowed through him, his blade was more than a weapon. It became an extension of his will.

Captain Yarri’s skill with her electrostaff was impressive, but ultimately she was no match for a Sith Lord. Knowing this, she had wisely adopted a defensive style to hold off the first few flurries of Scourge’s attack, her focus on stalling him long enough for one of her companions to join the fray before switching to a more aggressive form.

Now Scourge was forced to defend himself on two fronts as he backed into the throne room. In his peripheral vision he saw that Meetra was in a similar situation, retreating while battling a pair of enemies.

The fact that Revan hadn’t come to their aid told Scourge that the Jedi had gone to confront the Emperor, conjuring up images from Scourge’s vision of him lying broken and beaten on the floor at the Emperor’s feet.

Yarri’s staff slipped through his defenses and clipped him on his right shoulder. Scourge’s armor absorbed the worst of the blow, though he felt a painful jolt from the electrostaff’s charge that made his hand and arm tingle.

Even as Scourge cursed himself for allowing thoughts of his vision to distract him, he deftly switched his blade from his temporarily numb right hand to his left. The move was dangerous; it left him momentarily vulnerable as he made the switch. Fortunately his opponents were unprepared for the unorthodox tactic, and neither was able to take advantage.

While he and Meetra fought the quartet of guards, T3-M4 was busy sealing the doors. The droid was spraying black foam along the edge where the double doors came together. Scourge recognized the foam as a powerful contact adhesive commonly used to repair starships; seconds after being exposed to air it would harden into a substance that could be cut only with a plasma torch.

Yarri’s blade nearly caught him again, narrowly missing his cheek, and Scourge swore out loud. If he didn’t stay focused on the fight, his vision of the Emperor killing him wouldn’t even have a chance to come true....

Scourge pressed his attack, calling on the dark side to transform his uncertainty and fear into white-hot rage. He felt the power coursing through him, the spark of fury deep inside him igniting into a firestorm of death and destruction.

Left-handed, Scourge unleashed a pair of savage chops at Yarri’s partner, using raw brute strength to overpower his physically weaker opponent. The guard parried the blows, but the first knocked him off balance and the second sent him stumbling backward.

While the guard struggled to recover, Scourge focused his assault on the captain. Yarri sensed the shift in her opponent too late to switch back to a more defensive form, and the Sith Lord was quick to exploit the tactical flaw.

A four-move sequence overwhelmed Yarri, causing her to leave her right flank unprotected. Scourge seized the opportunity, his blade biting deep into her hip. Yarri screamed, dropped her blade, and fell to the ground. The other guard leapt to her defense, recklessly throwing himself between his fallen captain and Scourge. The only reward for his effort was a quick death, delivered by a diagonal lightsaber slash across his chest.

At Scourge’s feet, Yarri fumbled to reclaim her weapon. The agony of her wound made her desperate and clumsy, giving Scourge time to relish her suffering. As her fingers wrapped around the hilt of her electrostaff, he brought his boot down on top of her hand, crushing the bones.

He stared into the captain’s eyes one last time, savoring her terror before decapitating her with a single stroke.

-- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

(Note that it’s pre-Act II Scourge, and he beat soldiers who even the Dark Council feared)

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Unknown

-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia

It is self-evident that Scourge is above the Dark Council, which should put him above Angral too. After all, he is Vitiate’s personal executioner.

Yet, on a powerful DS Nexus, the HoT stalemates him. If HoT is going from Sub-Angral to on par, or above, the Wrath, it is unlikely that he didn’t have immense growth. Also, the Wrath says the Hero is “the finest” of the Jedi, being above Kira, who you showed had growth from Act I to II. Scourge’s comments also put him above the Jedi who “grew too powerful” that the Wrath had to execute, which cements the idea of a parity between the two.

TP


Fulminiss is also using his TP powers on people who are willingly to become subdued, as is shown in the Healing Shrine (the healers didn’t expect him to do that/it's also a place of "ancient power"), and his apprentices (who are fodder and wouldn’t fight back). The ritual he would perform is also made on a mega potent DS Nexus.

Quotes wrote:

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Unknown

-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Unknown

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Unknown

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Unknown

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Unknown

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Unknown

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Unknown

-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia

(Aayla willingly submitting to Karkko's influence, which makes it easier)

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Unknown

-- Fact File 98


Cade wipes Maladi’s memories of Ossus, not all her memories. She doesn’t show to remember what happened on the planet, other than Cade using the Force on her (which is purposeful considering Cade’s nature). Now, Maladi is highly hyped in Legacy as one of the best Sith Lords of Krayt. And Cade is successful in his TP, despite being his first time ever using that power.

Quotes wrote:Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 5016136-8955917842-11bb4

(Krayt asking Maladi for her knowledge on Sith Alchemy)

Extremly skilled in both Sith alchemy and the manipulation of Yuuzhan Vong bioengineering, Darth Maladi is very much a student of science as well as mysticism.

-- Legacy Campaign Guide

The most powerful Sith Lords possess a talent for the dark alchemy of the Sith. The Emperor, like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun long before him, became a master of manipulating the genetic building blocks of living creatures through the dark side.

-- Dark Side Sourcebook


Then you’re comparing Wyyrlok TP influencing Krayt (intended to be around/above ROTS Titans), not a good comparison. Fulminiss is performing those feats either on a nexus or on people who aren’t expecting/are submitting to his influence. His base version should not scale him above either of the Legacy's feats.

Quotes wrote:“Imperial Knights. Yes, in the first two issues you see every one you encounter die. But look at who they are up against. The first four are up against Darth Krayt himself. We saw Palpatine take out four Jedi masters; I submit it doesn't put the IK in a bad light to suggest that Krayt is in that class.”

-- John Ostrander

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Unknown

-- Legacy Campaign Guide

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Unknown

-- The Clone Wars Campaign Guide

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) CF_Card_Darth_Sidious__Dark_Lord_of_the_Sith_41

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Krayt_2

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Plag wrote:Cool, half of the team is shown to be pathetic and Kira has scaling in resisting the Emperor's control far better than any of the strike team does.

Not sure why any of these quotes are relevant? The quotes still say they are the best of the Order, that would only put a growth Kira above them, and Hero above Kira.

Plag wrote:Neither Baras nor Angral are sorcerers, nor are they alchemists. Nothing that you've cited goes against Sel-Makor calling Baras a "greater Sith" than Fulminiss.

I’ve never said that quote binds Baras or Angral, just mentioned that it seems unreasonable to me that a character so high in the hierarchy to be so far below per one quote only.

Plag wrote:Kol's stats are higher than S1 Anakin's in key areas such as Force (7 vs 6), Use The force, 2 extra Jedi ranks (2 Jedi Master vs 2 pilot), etc. This should suggest that Kol is a greater Force user than S1 Anakin. In contrast to the Shan bloodline, we know that while all Skywalkers are strong in the Force, there are still big gaps in potential. In fact, Satele is a descendant of two legendary Force users, and thus also inherits some of Revan's power.

Funny thing is that Kol is possibly the son of Ben Skywalker, who is hinted to be stronger in the Force than Anakin, who was already above Luke in potential. Being the son of someone with Luke+ potential, gives the descendant a lot of potential too, especially since Ben was romantically involved with another Force user. My point is about Anakin being close to Kol at that point, your logic needs to Kol to be far above, which isn’t the case.

Galactic Files wrote:
Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Cade_Skywalker

”That doesn’t explain the focus on Ben,’ Kyle said, ‘if it was just a matter of being a Force-user, Abeloth could have taken Valin or Jysella—or one of her Sith servants—just as easily. It’s something else . . . something that makes Ben special.
‘Well, he is a Skywalker,’ Kyp Durron pointed out. ‘The grandson of the Chosen One.’
‘And Jaina is a granddaughter of the Chosen One,’ Luke countered. ‘I’m more inclined to think it has something to do with Shelter. Maybe Abeloth just wants him because he withdrew from her touch when he was a toddler.’
Kyp shook his head. ‘Sorry, but no,’ he said. ‘Jaina is Han’s daughter just as much as Leia’s, and that means only one parent is a Force-user. Ben is the son of two parents who were very strong in the Force. No offense to Jaina, but Ben has Special Destiny written all over him.’
Luke’s face fell, and Jaina could tell by the silence that followed that he saw the wisdom of Kyp’s suggestion—as did everyone else at the table. Abeloth had gone after Ben because of what Ben was . . . and that meant she had something special in mind for him.”

-- Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

(Jaina lesser than Ben -> reason that Ben was born from two Force users -> Anakin Solo was born from only one Force user)

As his Jedi uncle Luke Skywalker watches his growth, Anakin doesn’t realise he may have the strongest Force powers of his lineage.

-- Star Wars: 1996 Finest #41 Anakin Solo

Anakin's bold stance and daring nature made him into a popular figure among the Jedi and New Republic. Many privately whispered that he would someday take Luke Skywalker's place as the most powerful Jedi. The bloody events of the ongoing war would indisputably provide an answer to that speculation.

-- Anakin Solo Databank

The youngest of Han and Leia Solo’s children. All three Solo offspring are strong in the ways of the Force, although Anakin is especially gifted and may one day become the most powerful Jedi the galaxy has ever known.

-- Star Wars: Behind the Magic

Inheriting his mother’s and his grandfather’s Force abilities, Anakin Solo had the potential to become the greatest Jedi of his generation.

-- Star Wars Fact File #114


It’s evident that potential won’t indicate that the characters are on the same power level/above after a x amount of time, because if that were so, Kol Skywalker (who is the son of someone with Luke+ potential) should be well above S1 Anakin, and not put on the same challenge level as him (CL is credited as the difficulty of the fight, and Kol and Anakin share the same level). In fact, Kol fought a three-year war against the Imperial/Sith Forces, which, as you’ve shown, makes characters powerful.

The Essential Guide to Warfare wrote:

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 20210717_102020

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 20210717_102251

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-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia: Volume III


Plag wrote:Within the S-canon realm, Bastila's stats are well above both K'kruhk and Asajj Ventress.

Bastila’s stats are outdated. The character level in Saga never surpasses 20, as those that are in that level are “the most powerful”; and WOTC never showed any hint to change this. So, had Saga extended to SWTOR, characters’ stats would be changed to accommodate the new additions, Bastila’s stats should only count to 2009.

Wizards of the Coast wrote:Q: Is Wizards of the Coast ever going to release an "Epic Level Handbook" for the Star Wars Roleplaying Game?

A: Wizards has announced no intention to do so. The major stumbling blocks are that the most powerful characters in the Star Wars universe are themselves 20th level. Some people see that as a mistake, though, saying that characters like Yoda, the Emperor, Mace Windu, Darth Vader, and Luke Skywalker (circa The New Jedi Order era) should be higher level. There's a certain amount of logic to that argument, but not enough to justify a sourcebook to support a handful of nonplayer characters.

Many people who ask about an epic-level sourcebook for Star Wars really just want to have characters advance beyond 20th level. But nothing in the revised core rulebook says that you absolutely can't; it's your campaign, after all. Just extend Table 3-1: Experience and Level-Dependent Benefits; the progression is fairly clear.

If, on the other hand, what you really want are epic-level feats, you're probably best served by simply converting feats from the Epic Level Handbook for Dungeons & Dragons.

-- Source


Plag wrote:In addition, it is clear that there are several characters that are not meant to be bound below Ventress, and some even by Dooku. Suffice to say, this singular quote is an outlier and is the dissenting opinion.

The first quote is about gameplay; the Nihilus quotes means nothing, Ventress can still be above; Karness’ spirit didn’t fight the Jedi Order as a whole (which is what the quote references); those are 2011 scans, Ventress doesn’t bind them; Nadd quote is pre-TOTJ era only; Vader quote is about training; I doubt that Revan quote has greater LFL involvement than the successor to Fact Files.

Plag wrote:So Darth Malgus, a confirmed inferior of the Sith Lord Darth Angral, was not only the key to Palpatine's "ultimate power" but he also greatly impressed Palpatine in terms of both knowledge and power. This in itself should support the notion of Angral > Malgus > Asajj, if not have Malgus over even more PT era combatants.

Malgus being impressive per Sidious isn’t a bind to the PT characters, especially Ventress, who Sidious even fears her growth in power. The quote about his feats could fall into his military strategy prowess. Especially when Yoda is compared to SoR Revan in combat (although not a bind it shows that the intention for high level PT characters isn’t to be below ToC Malgus/likewise, the gap between Yoda and Ventress is not as big as the gap between Revan and ToC Malgus).

Charles Boyd wrote:Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) UdzqSfC

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) GOJBoJ5

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"Revan should be like Yoda or something. You almost never have a movie about Yoda or a show. There are a few episodes in the Clone Wars that are about Yoda. Yoda mostly just shows up and just is awesome and then moves on and then the other characters are just left dealing with it right. That's the way you use Revan."

-- Charles Boyd


What is a Sith Warrior? wrote:Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Unknown

In the end, you haven’t disproved my chain, nor have you made a convincing case for Satele >> Bastila. The TP comparisons don’t hold up for their circumstances, and the Malgus quote is autistic. K’Kruhk wins.

Character count: 4,814.
Would be Lord
Would be Lord

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Empty Re: Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan)

July 21st 2021, 12:07 am

Rebuttals

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AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"I will first look at Scourge to explain the gap. He is pretty much above every other Sith in the Empire, where even the most powerful of the Dark Council fear him, he was specifically tasked to execute the most powerful Sith/Jedi that rose in the galaxy, and after Scourge fled, the most powerful Sith Lords of the Empire were considered to become the Wrath, yet no one was chosen."
It is factually incorrect that nobody was chosen to become the new Emperor's Wrath. Let us take a look at the Second Emperor's Wrath.

Sith Warrior Act III:
Seems clear to me that the Emperor's Hand, SWTORE, Second Wrath, etc all acknowledge members of the Dark Council being genuine threats to the Wrath in a fight. Before you claim that Scourge is simply superior, I find it unlikely...

Voss:

So the Wrath faced a large portion of the Voice's power, controlled by Sel-Makor. Scourge on the other hand.

Scourge:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"It is self-evident that Scourge is above the Dark Council, which should put him above Angral too. After all, he is Vitiate’s personal executioner."
Yet Scourge is already admitting that Fulminiss and his apprentices are a threat to an individual that is a greater combatant than him. Scourge also admits that those who are "strong enough to challenge" the emperor are often "co-opted into the dark council".

Scourge sucks:

Likewise, I am sure that you are aware that a similar situation allowed for 6 random Sith sabers to give Luke and Jaina difficulty.

Fate of the Jedi:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Yet, on a powerful DS Nexus, the HoT stalemates him. If HoT is going from Sub-Angral to on par, or above, the Wrath, it is unlikely that he didn’t have immense growth. Also, the Wrath says the Hero is “the finest” of the Jedi, being above Kira, who you showed had growth from Act I to II. Scourge’s comments also put him above the Jedi who “grew too powerful” that the Wrath had to execute, which cements the idea of a parity between the two."
Check above for why I question Scourge supremacy. What is relevant here is that Kira is a extremely potent combatant herself.

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Fulminiss is also using his TP powers on people who are willingly to become subdued, as is shown in the Healing Shrine (the healers didn’t expect him to do that/it's also a place of "ancient power"), and his apprentices (who are fodder and wouldn’t fight back). The ritual he would perform is also made on a mega potent DS Nexus."
Shrine amps Voss, don't see any of those people as "willing". Disagree on apprentices being fodder. Ritual being on a nexus is why my main focus is his showings off of it.

Likewise, Fulminiss utilizing sorcery is at a disadvantage in speed of use.

Book of the Sith:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"(Krayt asking Maladi for her knowledge on Sith Alchemy)"
I'm sure that you're aware of Doctor Isen, who is proficient in Sith Alchemy.
Doctor Isen:

Yet despite his skills in alchemy, his status as a non-warrior has led to him being of lower value and being unworthy of the title of "Darth".
Doctor Isen:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Not sure why any of these quotes are relevant? The quotes still say they are the best of the Order, that would only put a growth Kira above them, and Hero above Kira."
Kira is already performing great in resisting Vitiate while fighting Angral. As such, baseline Kira as of that fight is already above Leeha and Warren Sedoru, before growing.

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"I’ve never said that quote binds Baras or Angral, just mentioned that it seems unreasonable to me that a character so high in the hierarchy to be so far below per one quote only."
Here is the thing. This is one of the most concrete binds that we get within SWTOR and Star Wars in general. We get told:
A: There are two characters, Baras and Fulminiss.
B: The point of reference is X and Y.
C: As of the time in which they made their bargain, Baras was already greater than Fulminiss.
D: Both are then gifted power in their deal with Sel-Makor.
This is not a blanket supremacy quote, this is a direct comparison of two characters by a source that should be considered reliable in this instance. This very much tells me that Baras is meant to be held extremely highly, Angral benefits because of his closeness to Baras and being his rival.

AaylaSecurafan87 wrote:"Funny thing is that Kol is possibly the son of Ben Skywalker, who is hinted to be stronger in the Force than Anakin, who was already above Luke in potential. Being the son of someone with Luke+ potential, gives the descendant a lot of potential too, especially since Ben was romantically involved with another Force user. My point is about Anakin being close to Kol at that point, your logic needs to Kol to be far above, which isn’t the case."
Love to see another one jump on the Ben brigade. Ben and Vestara NOT having children is a LFL mandate btw.
Troy Denning:
Funny you should mention Ben, we know for a fact that his growth and training were seriously stunted.

Fate of the Jedi:

Likewise there are scarce details on Kol's history and early life, which leaves us unaware of if there was a similar situation for him.

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"It’s evident that potential won’t indicate that the characters are on the same power level/above after a x amount of time, because if that were so, Kol Skywalker (who is the son of someone with Luke+ potential) should be well above S1 Anakin, and not put on the same challenge level as him (CL is credited as the difficulty of the fight, and Kol and Anakin share the same level). In fact, Kol fought a three-year war against the Imperial/Sith Forces, which, as you’ve shown, makes characters powerful."
I'm not the idiot that approved of Kol's stats being as low as they are. I do agree, they should be higher. I find it more likely that Kol is the grandson or great grandson. Yes, both S1 anakin and Kol have experienced some degree of war growth. 3 years is still a far cry from the ridiculousness that is 28 years. In addition, we hear very little about Kol's exploits. For all we know, he was sitting around, doing nothing, the entire war.

Pre-S1 Anakin's War Exploits:

Meme:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Bastila’s stats are outdated. The character level in Saga never surpasses 20, as those that are in that level are “the most powerful”; and WOTC never showed any hint to change this. So, had Saga extended to SWTOR, characters’ stats would be changed to accommodate the new additions, Bastila’s stats should only count to 2009"
This does not mean that Bastila's stats are outdated. This is a stretch, and likewise doesn't influence the fact that LS Bastila's stats were being written above Kol, above K'Kruhk, above Ventress, etc.

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"The first quote is about gameplay; the Nihilus quotes means nothing, Ventress can still be above; Karness’ spirit didn’t fight the Jedi Order as a whole (which is what the quote references); those are 2011 scans, Ventress doesn’t bind them; Nadd quote is pre-TOTJ era only; Vader quote is about training; I doubt that Revan quote has greater LFL involvement than the successor to Fact Files."
Ventress quote is from Vehicles Collection, so see 0 reason for the other quote from there to be irrelevant. You try calling the Malgus quote "autistic" but want to argue Ventress > world eater. For Muur, a few exiles did leave Korriban and his post exile tricks are known by the Jedi. I think there are too many contradictions to buy the quote.
Muur:

AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Malgus being impressive per Sidious isn’t a bind to the PT characters, especially Ventress, who Sidious even fears her growth in power. The quote about his feats could fall into his military strategy prowess. Especially when Yoda is compared to SoR Revan in combat (although not a bind it shows that the intention for high level PT characters isn’t to be below ToC Malgus/likewise, the gap between Yoda and Ventress is not as big as the gap between Revan and ToC Malgus)."
I really don't care for the Boyd quotes that you showed. Yoda comparison I'd take some thought on if he ever worked in PT era content. Palpatine being impressed by both Malgus' Force mastery and his battlefield performances are meaningful, and does mean that Malgus would scale high within the PT.


Andeddu


I am sure that you are aware that Andeddu's holocron housed his spirit.

Legacy:

We see that Wyyrlock relied on Andeddu's own fears in order to defeat him telepathically.

Legacy:

Wyyrlock's goal was acquiring Andeddu's knowledge.

Knowledge:

Darth Bane had the same goal, and was able to take the knowledge directly from Andeddu.

Dynasty of Evil:

By proxy of Andeddu we get Bane >>> Andeddu < Wyyrlock.


Zannah

Zannah is a Sith sorceress, who has showcased similar mental abilities to Fulminiss.

Sorcery:
Yet Zannah is getting exhausted by performing this on one non-Force sensitive. Compare that to Fulminiss near effortlessly doing the same to groups of Sith and Voss. In the following book, Zannah is able to utilize similar sorcery on Bane.

Dynasty of Evil:

Likewise, Zannah hides amongst the Jedi for a short period of time.

Zannah:

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0
In contrast, Angral's rival in Baras has spies within the Jedi Order.

Spies:

The spy requires Jaesa's unique talent to be exposed.

Jaesa Wilsaam:

Injaye had hidden within the Jedi for long enough to be a Master and fight alongside Jedi, which would be challenging while using sorcery to mask oneself.

Spy:

Remember Boyd? Of course you do!

Boyd:

It seems to me that not only is Lord Fulminiss piggybacking off of scaling massively over Zannah, but so is is a random servant of Darth Baras, who undoubtedly is massively below him.
Angral > Fulminiss >>> RoT Z << DoE Bane >>> Andeddu < Wyyrlock
Angral ~ ToC Baras >>>> Spy >>> RoT Z << DoE Bane >>> Andeddu < Wyyrlock

Krayt

That is a nice Krayt quote.

John Ostrander wrote:“Imperial Knights. Yes, in the first two issues you see every one you encounter die. But look at who they are up against. The first four are up against Darth Krayt himself. We saw Palpatine take out four Jedi masters; I submit it doesn't put the IK in a bad light to suggest that Krayt is in that class.

Lets recall Krayt's condition afterwards.

Legacy:

Darth Baras has a sister, who was imprisoned during the GGW.

Imprisoned:

She believes her power to have atrophied.

Imprisoned:

She oneshots a fellow Sith.

Melicoste:

She faces the Wrath and is confident in her brother's superiority, despite her losing.

Baras:

Not the same level as Krayt, but still overall impressive. Being utterly exhausted after fighting 4 fodder vs effortlessly destroying 1 fodder with a gesture.
Rest of Legacy (minus Roan) <<< Krayt = crushing 4 enemies >> oneshot 1 enemy = Ekkhage << perception of Baras >/~ ToC Baras ~ Angral

Characters: 5,915/6,000
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August 2nd 2021, 3:15 pm
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Plagsus Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 228124001 wrote:It is factually incorrect that nobody was chosen to become the new Emperor's Wrath. Let us take a look at the Second Emperor's Wrath.

Not really what I wanted to say but, yes, the SW becomes the next Wrath, but up until that point, no one else was chosen.

Plagsus Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 228124001 wrote:Seems clear to me that the Emperor's Hand, SWTORE, Second Wrath, etc all acknowledge members of the Dark Council being genuine threats to the Wrath in a fight. Before you claim that Scourge is simply superior, I find it unlikely...

Them being a genuine threat doesn’t indicate that Scourge isn’t above them. My point is, Scourge is likely above the upper DC, as is HoT. From Act II to III, he has some kind of growth, as he is the only one with “the power to stop the Emperor.”

HoT:

Plagsus Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 228124001 wrote:So the Wrath faced a large portion of the Voice's power, controlled by Sel-Makor. Scourge on the other hand.

And Scourge assumed Vitiate was returning to full power. And it’s clear that only HoT has the power to stop Vitiate (at least, by Vanilla).

The Emperor:

Plagsus Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 228124001 wrote:Yet Scourge is already admitting that Fulminiss and his apprentices are a threat to an individual that is a greater combatant than him.

I don’t think Fulminiss’ apprentices would pose a single threat against HoT, he one-shots one of them btw. So Fulminiss is the true threat here.



3:43

Plagsus Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 228124001 wrote:Shrine amps Voss, don't see any of those people as "willing".

The quote I provided very clearly states that they will help anyone that comes across them. I don’t think they would ever expect Fulminiss to use their own powers against them, which makes the feat unquantifiable, since the Voss are not prepared/resisting his direct influence.

Plagsus Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 228124001 wrote:Likewise, I am sure that you are aware that a similar situation allowed for 6 random Sith sabers to give Luke and Jaina difficulty.

Luke isn’t going all out in this, we know the way he uses his power is in a flux, and right after some time, Luke alone is a threat to a restored Abeloth.

Luke Skywalker:

Plagsus Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 228124001 wrote:Yet despite his skills in alchemy, his status as a non-warrior has led to him being of lower value and being unworthy of the title of "Darth".

And Isen is below Maladi, not only per his own status as a Darth, but also per Maladi’s comments.

Maladi:

Plagsus Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 228124001 wrote:Love to see another one jump on the Ben brigade. Ben and Vestara NOT having children is a LFL mandate btw. Funny you should mention Ben, we know for a fact that his growth and training were seriously stunted. Likewise there are scarce details on Kol's history and early life, which leaves us unaware of if there was a similar situation for him.

My bad then, but, Kol still is a “natural-born-leader”/”what folks looked for in a Skywalker”/”understood the Force in ways I [Nat] never could”, Nat is also a Skywalker, and by all means, Kol was always far stronger and gifted than Nat, if anything, the one that lacks potential is Nat. Cade is also revered by the others due to his potential, which could only come from Kol.

Nat and Kol:

It seems to me that Kol was very gifted with the Force, as even another fellow Skywalker couldn’t begin to fathom Kol’s understanding of the Force. Now, I completely disagree with Kol not doing anything important in his early life, he achieved all ranks in the Order; and frequently accompanied an Imperial Agent in various missions and was always on Ossus, either training or being given missions. By his looks, he may be way above forty, or even more, and constantly trained in Ossus. The Jedi did go to war, and Kol was one of the main participators. Despite this… stats put them relatively close to one another.

Kol:

Plagsus Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 228124001 wrote:This does not mean that Bastila's stats are outdated.

Don’t you agree that if, new “most powerful characters” are added, some characters would inevitably be put below them for the sake of following the canon? And then the nerf hits other characters and so on.

Plagsus Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 228124001 wrote:You try calling the Malgus quote "autistic" but want to argue Ventress > world eater. Palpatine being impressed by both Malgus' Force mastery and his battlefield performances are meaningful, and does mean that Malgus would scale high within the PT.

But above Ventress? Heck no. Sidious even fears Ventress’ skills, her growth in power and questions if Dooku and Ventress could overthrow him. Malgus isn’t above Asajj and by extension, K’Kruhk.

Ventress:

Plagsus Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 228124001 wrote:We see that Wyyrlock relied on Andeddu's own fears in order to defeat him telepathically.

As did Andeddu, and he utterly failed in that regard, despite being on a field of his own advantage. Wyyrlok outperforms him greatly and even deflects with ease Andeddu’s lightning. He also absorbs Andeddu’s own knowledge, and goes from being rivaled by Krayt in knowledge, to having “unparalleled” knowledge.

Andeddu vs Wyyrlok:

Andeddu's Lightning:

Andeddu's advantage:

Wyyrlok's knowledge:

Plagsus Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 228124001 wrote:Angral > Fulminiss >>> RoT Z << DoE Bane >>> Andeddu < Wyyrlock

I disagree with this. ROT Zannah was ragdolled by ROT Bane, and only by DoE does she show any closeness to him (which is 10 years of constant growth after RoT). As said before, Wyyrlok greatly outperforms Andeddu, and, with only “an iota of the power I [Wyyrlok] possess”, performs the same feat Fulminiss did on Force users as well. Btw, Bane fought those cultists and easily got tired of fighting them, despite being on a DS Nexus. Wyyrlok however, easily dispatches them all, and those that he fought were Force users who “imbuing ourselves with the energy of the dark side” for over a century, now compare that to Bane’s simple humans and the feat really shows Wyyrlok’s superiority.

Zannah vs Bane:

Zannah's growth:

Wyyrlok's power:

The Malevolence Cultists:

Bane:

Plagsus Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 228124001 wrote:Not the same level as Krayt, but still overall impressive. Being utterly exhausted after fighting 4 fodder vs effortlessly destroying 1 fodder with a gesture.
Rest of Legacy (minus Roan) <<< Krayt = crushing 4 enemies >> oneshot 1 enemy = Ekkhage << perception of Baras >/~ ToC Baras ~ Angral

Why should we assume that single enemy is close to one of the IKs? For all we know, the Sith could be massively below them, in any way, it’s impossible to quantify it, so the chain is in doubt and invalid.

Cade Skywalker


Cade shares parity with K’Kruhk per two different stat cards.

Galactic Files:

Miniatures:

This is important because Cade duels a Reborn Krayt and competes very well (as well as Vong Krayt, and Cade at that point was far from prime).

Vong:

Reborn:

Same Reborn Krayt who is far above the Vong Krayt who is a lvl 20 per SAGA, as well as Darth Revan. Meetra is cucking to MW Revan, and Scourge is cucking to Meetra. Scourge, as proven before, is with/above the DC. So:

Krayt:

Revan:

Meetra:

K’Kruhk ~ Cade < Reborn Krayt >>> Vong Krayt ~ Darth Revan >>> MW Revan > Meetra > Scourge >/~ DC Member >/~ Angral

Strength


K’Kruhk’s attacks will also be very difficult for Angral to parry, let’s compare K’Kruhk’s strength to some other characters:

K'Kruhk:

Now, K’Kruhk has his physical strength on par with Darth Revan, and above other heavy hitters (Krayt, Wyyrlok, Obi-Wan, Anakin, etc.) This is not only supported by SAGA, but also by GF and Minis, where K’Kruhk’s damage is exponentially higher than most characters.

(Before you go on and say that these characters have a higher attack count, the attack count is only the number that will be added to the D20 roll, which should be accounted for mastery with a saber, but the damage itself is how hard the attack hits).

K'Kruhk still wins. Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 4233314142

Character Count:

Would be Lord
Would be Lord

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August 9th 2021, 4:25 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Rebuttals

SubTalon 87 wrote:"Not really what I wanted to say but, yes, the SW becomes the next Wrath, but up until that point, no one else was chosen."
Because the position was not vacant.

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"Them being a genuine threat doesn’t indicate that Scourge isn’t above them. My point is, Scourge is likely above the upper DC, as is HoT. From Act II to III, he has some kind of growth, as he is the only one with “the power to stop the Emperor.”"
Hmm yes a sidekick is above 99% of characters in the game. My point with the second Wrath is that a superior Wrath still must take the DC to be a genuine threat and has a "fierce duel" with a singular DC member in Baras (Angral's rival).

Let us also recall that Baras is post prime, as he has gained a lot of weight.

Weight gain:

Health Problems:

Aging:

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"And Scourge assumed Vitiate was returning to full power. And it’s clear that only HoT has the power to stop Vitiate (at least, by Vanilla)."
Scourge makes his statement with the assumption that Vitiate is far below his full power and believes that all is lost should Vitiate be granted time to gather his power.

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"The quote I provided very clearly states that they will help anyone that comes across them. I don’t think they would ever expect Fulminiss to use their own powers against them, which makes the feat unquantifiable, since the Voss are not prepared/resisting his direct influence."
Them helping people isn't the same as being open to being mentally destroyed. Likewise, the Bane quote that I had provided clearly shows that one can defend against such tricks even as they are occuring. To assume that they won't defend themselves is asinine.

Fate of the Jedi


SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"Luke isn’t going all out in this, we know the way he uses his power is in a flux, and right after some time, Luke alone is a threat to a restored Abeloth."
I am not convinced that Luke is a genuine threat there, due to how badly Luke is injured when he has a large amount of assistance against Abeloth.

Abeloth Splitting:

Fate of the Jedi Battle with Abeloth:

Luke's Injuries:

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0

Fodder


SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"And Isen is below Maladi, not only per his own status as a Darth, but also per Maladi’s comments."
Clearly you don't understand my point. Her status as an alchemist and creator means squat for power within the One Sith.

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"My bad then, but, Kol still is a “natural-born-leader”/”what folks looked for in a Skywalker”/”understood the Force in ways I [Nat] never could”, Nat is also a Skywalker, and by all means, Kol was always far stronger and gifted than Nat, if anything, the one that lacks potential is Nat. Cade is also revered by the others due to his potential, which could only come from Kol."
Nat being worse than Kol doesn't make Kol a god. None of the quotes that you've provided are relevant to my point. The vast majority of Kol's life, training, experience is an unknown, and likewise we hear squat about his war participation.

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"Don’t you agree that if, new “most powerful characters” are added, some characters would inevitably be put below them for the sake of following the canon? And then the nerf hits other characters and so on."
This doesn't change the fact that KOTOR as an era is being written as > Legacy as an era, and thus if we lowered KOTOR we would also lower Legacy. This is not a change that would exclusively impact KOTOR.

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"But above Ventress? Heck no. Sidious even fears Ventress’ skills, her growth in power and questions if Dooku and Ventress could overthrow him. Malgus isn’t above Asajj and by extension, K’Kruhk."
None of this is relevant to the accolades that Sidious has granted Malgus. Likewise, this isn't evidence that Ventress is > a world eater, Malak, Revan, Bastila, etc. Even LEGO respects the power of Malgus!

Nihilus:

You knew this was coming:

LEGO:

Furthermore, let us re-examine a point that you brought up earlier.

SubTalon Fan87 response 1:

So its unreasonable for a direct comparison of two characters to bind one character over another, but it is reasonable to use a blanket quote to bind Ventress over a ton of characters who in every other source, stats, feat comparison, etc all outshine her?

Bane


SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"As did Andeddu, and he utterly failed in that regard, despite being on a field of his own advantage. Wyyrlok outperforms him greatly and even deflects with ease Andeddu’s lightning. He also absorbs Andeddu’s own knowledge, and goes from being rivaled by Krayt in knowledge, to having “unparalleled” knowledge."
This doesn't change my point. Bane managed to take Andeddu's knowledge from Andeddu with a far greater amount of ease than Wyyrlok.

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"I disagree with this. ROT Zannah was ragdolled by ROT Bane, and only by DoE does she show any closeness to him (which is 10 years of constant growth after RoT)."
My scaling is explicitly in the use of sorcery. Within this area, Zannah performs far greater than she does in blades. Likewise, Bane performs far worse in this area than he does in blades. As such, comparing how they perform in blades is not the same as how they'd perform in sorcery. Likewise, part of the gap there is the orbalisks, not Bane's own power/skill.

Zannah's Sorcery:

Orbalisk:

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"As said before, Wyyrlok greatly outperforms Andeddu, and, with only “an iota of the power I [Wyyrlok] possess”"
This is in regards to a cultist, not Andeddu.

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"performs the same feat Fulminiss did on Force users as well."
Wyyrlok muses the possibility of driving them insane. The fact he doesn't would suggests that it would take far more out of him to do, while on a nexus, and while fighting self trained plebs.

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"Btw, Bane fought those cultists and easily got tired of fighting them, despite being on a DS Nexus. Wyyrlok however, easily dispatches them all, and those that he fought were Force users who “imbuing ourselves with the energy of the dark side” for over a century, now compare that to Bane’s simple humans and the feat really shows Wyyrlok’s superiority."
Bane fought for far longer and against FAR more of them, and still viewed them as "no real threat". All that you've shown is that the method Bane chose, which Wyyrlok fails to show any comparison to, is taxing. We are even told that Orbalisk Bane would casually demolish all of Andeddu's cultists.
Bane vs Cultists:

Stats!


SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"Why should we assume that single enemy is close to one of the IKs? For all we know, the Sith could be massively below them, in any way, it’s impossible to quantify it, so the chain is in doubt and invalid."
Because nowhere are the IKs named, Ostrander suggests that they are average, and Lord Melicoste is a high ranked figure in a more impressive era.

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"Cade shares parity with K’Kruhk per two different stat cards."
GF is as relevant as Sith Showdown! DR > Krayt! I love that miniatures has a druggie Cade (who is still working as a bounty hunter) as a more cost-expensive character than K'Kruhk. Likewise, Talon is closer to this Cade..

Sith Showdown:

Darth Revan > Krayt Mini:

Aayla's Superior:


Mandalore the Ultimate is close to Krayt in mini.

Mandalore the Ultimate:

One interesting thing to note is the Sith Triumvirate's closeness to Krayt in minis.

Triumvirate Mini:

Triumvirate (and Malak) Saga Edition:

Yet we know fairly well that Baras, Angral's rival, can and has made Traya his bitch.

The Entity:

Angral ~ Baras >> Traya ~ Vong Krayt >> Talon ~ K'Kruhk

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0

Issues that I see are Malak, who is held highly against DR elsewhere, and the Exile, who is likely pre-prime due to being below the triumvirate in mini.

Outliers:

Darth Malak:

Exile < Sion:

Exile surpassing the Triumvirate:

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"This is important because Cade duels a Reborn Krayt and competes very well (as well as Vong Krayt, and Cade at that point was far from prime)."
Druggie Cade isn't doing this. If a druggie Cade is already being held above/equal to K'kuhk, there are problems for bootleg walrus.

Drugs:

Post Sith Training:

Aayla's Superior, for reference:

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"Same Reborn Krayt who is far above the Vong Krayt who is a lvl 20 per SAGA, as well as Darth Revan."
I hope you didn't forget about this.

Revan Supremacy:

Darth Revan > Vong Krayt >> K'Kruhk

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"Meetra is cucking to MW Revan, and Scourge is cucking to Meetra. Scourge, as proven before, is with/above the DC."
Scourge is irrelevant and we've already seen prime Meetra get her ass stomped by a DC member from the Empire 300 years before its prime.

Nyriss > Meetra:

Scourge's assessment of the Dark Council:

Dark Council Threat Accolades:

Lack of "Darth":

Meme:

SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"K’Kruhk’s attacks will also be very difficult for Angral to parry, let’s compare K’Kruhk’s strength to some other characters:"
This has 0 connection at all to Angral. You insult my Malgus argument and go for this? I very much doubt that this is making a win for K'kruhk if strength isn't giving Malgus the win vs Angral.

Height and strength:

Meme:

Character: 4,395.4,750

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0
The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
Level Seven
Level Seven

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August 10th 2021, 7:52 am
Let us also recall that Baras is post prime, as he has gained a lot of weight.

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 3udH2hjJMhK6RyxY5mUzzcugGVL0gXem4DX-njaLdDTx31C44lmOA8TatY03MoTZCYvYISr0l3DbAmSGePsH1cb1yhJeC0iIPh2WBlw-uaWBj8J5J9a6HyEcEJD7zN98Dzkx2-f-
shame
shame

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August 16th 2021, 4:23 pm
Sub-Maw wrote:Let us also recall that Baras is post prime, as he has gained a lot of weight.

No. Baras goes from being a “Lord”, then a “Darth” and then a DC member. Going from a lowly position to one of the best of the Empire. There is quite a lot of growth. Angral is only ~ Baras as of ToC.

Lord Baras:

Darth Baras, DC and feeding from the Entity:

Sub-Maw wrote:None of this is relevant to the accolades that Sidious has granted Malgus. Likewise, this isn't evidence that Ventress is > a world eater, Malak, Revan, Bastila, etc. Even LEGO respects the power of Malgus!

The most powerful Sith up to that time is afraid of Ventress skills and even thinks she has the power to replace him, which is enough for this to be settled. Ventress has given fights to some of the best Jedi in history (Anakin, Kenobi, Mace), and K’Kruhk is put right alongside her.

Sidious:

Ventress Fights and other wank:

Sub-Maw wrote:So its unreasonable for a direct comparison of two characters to bind one character over another, but it is reasonable to use a blanket quote to bind Ventress over a ton of characters who in every other source, stats, feat comparison, etc all outshine her?

For her, it is reasonable. Fulminiss however, who is put as a threat to the greatest Jedi in decades, is unreasonable to believe that he is far below ToC Shan.

Sub-Maw wrote:Them helping people isn't the same as being open to being mentally destroyed. Likewise, the Bane quote that I had provided clearly shows that one can defend against such tricks even as they are occuring. To assume that they won't defend themselves is asinine.

The fact that they were open to help anyone means that they don’t expect an attack from anyone as well, which ties into them not having any time to defend themselves. Also note that Bane recommends “Dun Moch” as a strategy to use Mind Shard, which is used to make an opponent distracted. So them being open to help anyone is enough distraction to Fulminiss do what he did.

Sub-Maw wrote:I am not convinced that Luke is a genuine threat there, due to how badly Luke is injured when he has a large amount of assistance against Abeloth.

Luke is in a specific Chosen-One mindset in this situation. He believes he can do it, just as he did when he fought Palpatine (whom he defeated). But we do know that he is clearly out of everyone’s level, or even imagination (TK Dominating Caedus, being “Beyond Power”, etc).

Caedus:

Sub-Maw wrote:Clearly you don't understand my point. Her status as an alchemist and creator means squat for power within the One Sith.

Oh, but it does when Krayt is dependent on her knowledge and abilities. She is clearly not intimidated by Nihl, who himself is a Hand.

Nihl and Maladi:

Sub-Maw wrote:Nat being worse than Kol doesn't make Kol a god. None of the quotes that you've provided are relevant to my point. The vast majority of Kol's life, training, experience is an unknown, and likewise we hear squat about his war participation.

So you’re ignoring the quotes that say he was training on Ossus all the time? The Jedi also participated the War, and he was the leader of the Order, even Yoda went to battle in TCW. I see no reason for Kol not to do it as well.

War:

Sub-Maw wrote:This doesn't change the fact that KOTOR as an era is being written as > Legacy as an era, and thus if we lowered KOTOR we would also lower Legacy. This is not a change that would exclusively impact KOTOR.

Legacy era Jedi are also written to be in the same line of the NJO people, who are also an upgrade from the PT era Jedi. Stats back parity with KOTOR guys.

NJO and Legacy:

STATS:

Sub-Maw wrote:My scaling is explicitly in the use of sorcery. Within this area, Zannah performs far greater than she does in blades. Likewise, Bane performs far worse in this area than he does in blades. As such, comparing how they perform in blades is not the same as how they'd perform in sorcery. Likewise, part of the gap there is the orbalisks, not Bane's own power/skill.

However, dueling ties heavily in augmentation, which is related to how much one can draw from the Force. The fact that Zannah kept up with Bane in DoE is purely by her power and how much she can draw it, which puts a 10-year-old growth gap Zannah far above her RoT self.

Dueling:

Sub-Maw wrote:This is in regards to a cultist, not Andeddu.

Did you not read the full sentence?

I wrote:As said before, Wyyrlok greatly outperforms Andeddu, and, with only “an iota of the power I [Wyyrlok] possess”, performs the same feat Fulminiss did on Force users as well.

Sub-Maw wrote:Wyyrlok muses the possibility of driving them insane. The fact he doesn't would suggests that it would take far more out of him to do, while on a nexus, and while fighting self trained plebs.

Or he simply found it useless, and considering Wyyrlok’s pragmatic personality, it fits his character. Also consider that he drove them mad, and could’ve done even more, while it still being “nothing” to him.

Sub-Maw wrote:Bane fought for far longer and against FAR more of them, and still viewed them as "no real threat".

Bane is exhausted in the beginning of the fight. The usage of that ability was costly, and that was fighting random non-Force sensitive beings. Wyyrlok, with only the power he “possess”, and not the power he can draw from the Nexus, drove them mad and could’ve done even worse to them.

Sub-Maw wrote:We are even told that Orbalisk Bane would casually demolish all of Andeddu's cultists.

Because he is virtually invulnerable in a close quarters combat.

Sub-Maw wrote:Because nowhere are the IKs named, Ostrander suggests that they are average, and Lord Melicoste is a high ranked figure in a more impressive era.

Not being named =/= being weak. John compares their stand against Krayt to B-Team’s stand against Palps, which “it doesn't put the IK in a bad light to suggest that Krayt is in that class.”

Sub-Maw wrote:GF is as relevant as Sith Showdown! DR > Krayt! I love that miniatures has a druggie Cade (who is still working as a bounty hunter) as a more cost-expensive character than K'Kruhk. Likewise, Talon is closer to this Cade..

The Cade mini has his lightsaber already, and Cade never becomes a Jedi until War. Cost matters nothing, let me show you some cards to make it obvious.

Bounty Hunter Cade (scans from Legacy 10 to War).:

Miniatures ranking according to CL:

Cost Level Sucks:

Mace >> Yoda is the prime example of this. The game is built around a team from a single faction, the cost level is simply adjusted for the sake of balance. The real way to compare stats is by looking at their defense and attack count.

Attack and Defense Count Supremacy:

Sub-Maw wrote:Mandalore the Ultimate is close to Krayt in mini.

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 1076326320

Mandalore vs Krayt:

Sub-Maw wrote:One interesting thing to note is the Sith Triumvirate's closeness to Krayt in minis.

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 39523600

Are you kidding? Using fanon cards? Fanfic is acceptable to you?

Fanon vs Official:

Traya is not even in the game:

The Shit Triumvirate vs the Chad One Sith Emperor (Sion sub-Talon Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 2960029119 ):

Things Sub-Maw guy agrees to use in a formal debate:

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 1471176647

Also, Traya’s CG stats put her above DR, which is false, thus making the stats incorrect. As the quotes provided above make it clear, a character’s effectiveness in battle is shown through its attack and defense count. And Krayt is above Nihilus, Sion and Kreia.

DR vs Traya (Green means DR is better, Red is equal between the 2, and Blue means Kreia is better):

DARTH REVAN: SLAYER OF TRAYA:

Sub-Maw wrote:Issues that I see are Malak, who is held highly against DR elsewhere, and the Exile, who is likely pre-prime due to being below the triumvirate in mini.

Ah yes, despite them having attack and defense counts that support the C-Canon view. I am beginning to think you don’t know how to read these cards.

Sub-Maw wrote:Darth Revan > Vong Krayt >> K'Kruhk

The quote that caps Issue 20 Krayt, he is almost dying by that time (the quote is from 2008). Krayt’s stats are from his Legacy 1 appearance, who is above Issue 20 version.

Krayt:

Sith Showdown:

Sub-Maw wrote:Scourge is irrelevant and we've already seen prime Meetra get her ass stomped by a DC member from the Empire 300 years before its prime.

On a DS Nexus which is potent enough to affect Luke. Also, you didn’t provide a quote for it being in the Empire’s prime (for Force-users), is this just supposition? Again, even if the DC is a threat, Scourge has multiple quotes placing him above or with the DC, and the lack of Darth is not important due to his already high position within the Empire.

Nexus:
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shame

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Empty Re: Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan)

August 16th 2021, 4:27 pm
oops, forgot to add the character count. here it is:

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Fasjhfsalkfg

good debate, now to the conclusions Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 1143629744
Would be Lord
Would be Lord

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August 16th 2021, 7:04 pm

Conclusion


I do believe that Angral safely wins this fight.

Aayla failed to dismiss my chains regarding Fulminiss, Ekkage, Traya, Satele, etc. Fulminiss shows that pre-ToC Baras is a powerhouse. Ekkage shows a DC member admitting inferiority to a pre-ToC Baras.

The vast majority of my scaling focuses on things that are relevant to Baras’ scaling as of the ToC. SWTORE and Codex both imply that Baras was a Darth by that point, and regardless, him and Angral were ~ at that point, with Angral bossing other Darths (in Malgus) around.

It is irrelevant if Luke thinks that he is capable of fighting Abeloth on his own, if not long after he gets the shit beat out of him and is placed on the verge of death, while having a massive amount of assistance against her. Clearly his belief is proven incorrect.

Sidious fears the aid that Ventress would bring Dooku in a fight, not on her own.

I will fully admit that I made an error with miniature stats and should’ve double checked there. Regardless, there still exists the SE stat anchor that I provided, which has higher LFL vetting.

Aayla’s point with SE would just mean that we internally raise Revan, it doesn’t lower Traya or make her stats disappear.

There is still more to miniature stats than just attack and defense, there is obviously a strong correlation to cost and the writer’s perceived power of a character in the game. Aayla’s argument with miniatures should instead be that miniatures sucks as an anchor, but that would kill his K’Kruhk ~ Cade ~ Reborn Krayt argument.

Sith Showdown still binds Issue 1 Krayt. Likewise, miniatures holds Vong Krayt over K’Kruhk and Cade.

Aayla provided very little info to substantiate Kol’s war participation and degree of training, compared to a character like Satele.

Bane being “exhausted” by a power that Wyyrlok never shows or claims to be capable of doing is irrelevant. This is apples vs oranges.

Aayla ignored my feat comparison of Scourge vs Wrath II, and then to Wrath II vs Baras. And the hype comparisons of DC members such as Vengean and Ekkage.

In the end, I do not feel that Aayla successfully dismissed the majority of my claims, while bringing little scaling for K’Kruhk (and that scaling being sketchy).

Totally Character Count: 2,193,2,250

Good debate!
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August 18th 2021, 7:39 pm

Conclusion


Plag wrote:Aayla failed to dismiss my chains regarding Fulminiss, Ekkage, Traya, Satele, etc. Fulminiss shows that pre-ToC Baras is a powerhouse. Ekkage shows a DC member admitting inferiority to a pre-ToC Baras.

I did respond to the TP stuff, however, you didn't. Ekkage was fairly debunked by the lack of any connections between her and the IKs.

What I wrote:

Plag wrote:The vast majority of my scaling focuses on things that are relevant to Baras’ scaling as of the ToC. SWTORE and Codex both imply that Baras was a Darth by that point, and regardless, him and Angral were ~ at that point, with Angral bossing other Darths (in Malgus) around.

Both Malgus and Angral call Baras a "Lord", and he still goes to the DC, etc.

Plag wrote:It is irrelevant if Luke thinks that he is capable of fighting Abeloth on his own, if not long after he gets the shit beat out of him and is placed on the verge of death, while having a massive amount of assistance against her. Clearly his belief is proven incorrect.

But, it's clear he isn't in the level of those Sith Sabers, in fact, he is substantially above those fodder per his own position relative to other titans (Unu, Lomi, Caedus).

Plag wrote:Sidious fears the aid that Ventress would bring Dooku in a fight, not on her own.

The quotes I provided state that is her own "skill" and Sidious wonders if she could replace him.

Plag wrote:I will fully admit that I made an error with miniature stats and should’ve double checked there. Regardless, there still exists the SE stat anchor that I provided, which has higher LFL vetting.

Aayla’s point with SE would just mean that we internally raise Revan, it doesn’t lower Traya or make her stats disappear.

However, DR wouldn't be buffed since he is already at the max level. Makes more sense to lower Traya.

Plag wrote:There is still more to miniature stats than just attack and defense, there is obviously a strong correlation to cost and the writer’s perceived power of a character in the game. Aayla’s argument with miniatures should instead be that miniatures sucks as an anchor, but that would kill his K’Kruhk ~ Cade ~ Reborn Krayt argument.

There isn't, cost is made for balance as pointed out earlier. The Atk and Def counts are more cohesive with C-Canon than Cost count.

Plag wrote:Sith Showdown still binds Issue 1 Krayt. Likewise, miniatures holds Vong Krayt over K’Kruhk and Cade.

During Legacy, sure, by War, they should be above. I also outlined why K'Kruhk grows in my first post, you didn't respond to it (K'Kruhk becomes a GM by War btw).

Plag wrote:Bane being “exhausted” by a power that Wyyrlok never shows or claims to be capable of doing is irrelevant. This is apples vs oranges.

But, in Andeddu vs Wyyrlok, you didn't even respond to. Wyyrlok kicks the shit out of Loseddu even when Loseddu has the field advantage.

Plag wrote:Aayla provided very little info to substantiate Kol’s war participation and degree of training, compared to a character like Satele.

I did, but you ignored the quotes saying he trained super hard and the whole involvement of the Jedi in the war.

Plag wrote:Aayla ignored my feat comparison of Scourge vs Wrath II, and then to Wrath II vs Baras. And the hype comparisons of DC members such as Vengean and Ekkage.

However, by Act I, I don't see those feats being relevant. Scourge should be canonically above Angral by Act I.

Conclusion 2


-- Opponent was willing to use Fanon sources to provide a link, the official source backs my point.

-- Opponent didn't attack my claims on Cade and K'Kruhk, making the link viable.

-- Opponent completely misunderstood stats and their mechanics.

-- Most of opponent's chains were put in doubt or debunked.

-- Stats still back that, the son of Ben Skywalker, couldn't surpass Anakin, who had far lesser training, even with mega training + war growth. Making it clear that having similar/greater potential =/= ever surpassing said person. Bastila is still held in the highest regards by SWTOR era, and Bastila herself says (in one of the scans I posted) that she has been fighting ever since she was small (in one of my scans).

-- Asajj was fully defended so far, and the scans weren't debunked. Her superior position is more than understandable. Opponent also didn't attack my point of K'Kruhk ~ Asajj, making it viable.


Character Count: 2,197/2250

Great debate! Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 1289255181
The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
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September 4th 2021, 1:42 pm
Given that it's in the best interests of Kira wank, I vote for Plag.

Being serious, while my judgement post might miss some things here and there - all I did prep-wise was re-read the debate to get a feel for the general quality of the arguments presented on both sides, I didn't take notes while doing so - it'll be better than that. My thoughts are summarised on each section below:

I. Plag's Arguments


A) Fulminiss Scaling


Angral vs ToC Baras: Went unaddressed by Aayla.

ToC Baras vs Fulminiss: The direct quote was solid evidence that the former was beyond the latter, and Aayla did nothing to contest the accolade itself - instead opting for alleged contradictions. It's hard to back someone in such a scenario unless they provide exceptional proof. Ultimately, I don't think Aayla won concretely on enough of the points - or even had a strong enough opposing argument on a base level - for me to consider dismissing a flat-out comparison (e.g. Fulminiss << Act 3 Hero > Act 2 Hero ~> Scourge ~> Dark Council > Angral ~ ToC Baras can still be true and leave enough wiggle room for Baras to be above Fulminiss given none of these gaps need to be massive).

Fulminiss vs Cade: Correct me on this if I'm wrong - it's possible I missed something while reading - but two of Aayla's points on the issue went unaddressed (both the discussion on Cade's performance and it being his first time employing telepathy). All that was contested was Maladi's strength, and that's quite frankly irrelevant without discussion of other variables. So, it seems to me like this point doesn't hold.

Fulminiss and Spy vs RoT Zannah: Went unaddressed by Aayla.

Bane vs Zannah: The gap is pretty big, but it's a question of the extent it is compared to the other links in the chain. If Plag wins on these other points, I'm willing to consider the chain a viable - though not absolute - method of comparison.

Wyyrlok vs Bane: Plag established a direct method of comparison with Wyyrlok being unable to do something that Bane could do (i.e. taking Andeddu's knowledge). Given this is far more direct, and went unaddressed by Aayla (who purely contested the fight between the two) I'll take it over the apples vs oranges comparison of how they perform vs the cultists.

B) Shan Scaling


Angral vs ToC Satele: Went unaddressed by Aayla.

ToC Satele vs Bastila: I don't think this part of the debate went iron clad to either party, but overall I think Plag did enough. He sufficiently explained the differences between Kol and S1 Anakin, which results in the stats Aayla showed, and in a game of probability the idea that Satele is stronger than Bastila is more likely than the inverse. I'd be willing to ignore this section of the debate - like with the above comparison - if Aayla creates a more concrete link.

Stats: Plag caught Aayla out on the double standard of being willing to accept certain pieces of evidence when they contradict intuition, and not being willing to do so with others. He sufficiently showed the number of issues that result from using the Asajj quote, and thus I felt his initial stats stood.

C) Malgus Scaling


Angral > Malgus: Went uncontested.

Malgus' Position within the PT: Meh, I don't think this does very much for Plag's argument. Aayla did a pretty good job refuting some of the points, and ultimately the whole lacked the elaboration necessary for it to stand as a viable method of comparison.

D) Ekkage Scaling


ToC Baras vs Ekkage: Aayla sufficiently proved Baras had growth via his progression in the Sith hierarchy, or, at the very least, put enough ambiguity on it for me to not consider it a definite either way which pretty much collapses the point here.

Ekkage vs Krayt: Again, I feel this is very much similar to the Malgus argument. There wasn't enough connectivity nor elaboration for me to really buy the notion that the comparison was at all relevant.

II. Aayla's Argument


I'm getting lazy, so this section will probably be briefer than the majority of what I've written thus far. Anyway, this is really where Aayla falls short, imo. The ambiguity placed onto Plag's not so concrete arguments was solid, but ultimately meaningless given the lack of connectivity in the initial chain - the fact is that scaling over Bastila has very little to do with a fight against Angral given that they weren't even shown to be in the same league. It was only later that any sort of proper connectivity was formed, but in the end it was too little too late, and Plag's replies were good enough that I don't think that a victory there was properly cemented.

III. Conclusion


Good debate, both of you, but my vote goes to @Darth Rymrgand rather than @shame. While nothing he wrote was iron clad, it held up to a decent degree - enough that I think Aayla's lack of solid offensive very much sealed the deal.
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September 12th 2021, 11:58 am
Because Aayla has quit, the wins goes to Plagueis by default. I want to say that I thought both debaters did a good job though Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 1289255181
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