July 8th 2021, 10:29 am
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
DARTH ANGRAL (Darth Plagueis the Wise) -VS- K'KRUHK (AaylaSecuraFan)
A Opener -> 3,500K
B Opener -> 4,125K
A Response1 -> 4,725K
B Response1 -> 5,375K
A Response2 -> 6,000K
B Response2 -> 5,375K
A Response3 -> 4,750K
B Response3 -> 4,125K
A Conclusion -> 2,250K
B Conclusion -> 2,250K
(Opener B should contain counters to Opener A)
(Conclusions should not introduce wholly original arguments)
A Opener -> 3,500K
B Opener -> 4,125K
A Response1 -> 4,725K
B Response1 -> 5,375K
A Response2 -> 6,000K
B Response2 -> 5,375K
A Response3 -> 4,750K
B Response3 -> 4,125K
A Conclusion -> 2,250K
B Conclusion -> 2,250K
(Opener B should contain counters to Opener A)
(Conclusions should not introduce wholly original arguments)
- Darth Rymrgand
July 9th 2021, 6:20 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Vanguard of the Empire
As of the comic Threat of Peace, Darth Angral is a rough combative equal, with an edge in power, of the Sith Lord Darth Baras.
- SWTOR Comic: Threat of Peace:
This is significant because (ToC) Baras scales directly over the Sith Lord Fulminiss.
This is important because Lord Fulminiss is one of the greatest sorcerers, has knowledge to make the Dark Council envious, and is viewed as a true threat to the Act III Hero of Tython by Lord Scourge himself.
- SWTOR Codex: Lord Fulminiss wrote:"Widely regarded as one of the greatest Sith sorcerers in the Empire, the enigmatic Lord Fulminiss is a master of the dark side's most arcane and lethal aspects. The grotesque Harrower assassins are his most famous creation, but legend has it he once summoned a raging storm of pure Force energy that disintegrated a rebellious city of natives in the Imperial-conquered Jabiim system.
Lord Fulminiss is a respected expert on the topic of mass extermination, and at the Emperor's request, he has performed extensive research into new ways of eliminating planetary populations. More than one Dark Council member has paid handsomely to obtain a record of Lord Fulminiss's work for his or her private perusal."SWTOR Codex: Seeds of Rage wrote:“The Sith Order is constantly seeking ways to fuse dark side power with technology, creating new and terrifying weapons for inflicting terror and despair on the Empire’s enemies. One of the greatest practitioners of Sith alchemy, Lord Fulminiss, devoted his life to developing insidious new devices for corrupting other life forms. The subterranean machines code-named “Seeds of Rage” were Fulminiss’s crowning achievement. The Seeds use a combination of low-frequency transmissions and pure dark side power to subtly manipulate the thoughts and emotions of any living creature nearby. Over time, victims of these devices are driven homicidally insane and contaminated by dark side energy. The Seeds can affect intelligent species and beasts with equal success, and rumors persist that these horrific devices can even overwrite the programming logic of droids.”
Furthermore, Lord Fulminiss shows himself to be excellent at his art feat wise, even preparing to wipe out all life on the planet of Voss.
- SWTOR JK Act 3:
This mental performance by Lord Fulminiss is significant because the few telepathic feats that we see performed in the Legacy era are performed by late Legacy Cade Skywalker and Darth Wyyrlock III.
- Legacy Cade :
Not only is Cade Skywalker only showing this feat on a singular character, he is taking more effort in doing so, and doing less total damage to said individual character's mind.
As such, one would reach a scaling chain such as the following. ToC Angral ~ ToC Baras > Pre-Boost Baras >> Fulminiss >>>> Cade < K'Kruhk
- Skywalker Accolades:
- Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:"Skywalker, Anakin The father of Luke Skywalker and Leia Organa, he had strong Force powers that his teacher Obi-Wan Kenobi, helped him develop... He demonstrated an unusually high degree of flying and fighting talent, enhanced by his innate ability to tap into the Force."Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:"The son of Han Solo and Leia Organa Solo, Jacen is strong in the Force like his mother and his uncle, Luke Skywalker."A Guide to the Star Wars Galaxy 3rd Edition wrote:“From the moment the Emperor learned of Skywalker’s existence, he knew he had to bring him into his fold. Like his father before him, Luke possessed nearly unlimited strength in the Force.”Pablo Hidalgo, The Essential Readers Companion wrote:“They postulate that Abeloth is trying to re-create a family of godlike Force-wielders, with Luke as the father and Ben and Vestara as the children embodying the light and dark sides of the Force, respectively.”
Kol's stats are shown below, along with K'Kruhk's as of the Clone Wars (he does not possess stats within the Legacy era).
- Legacy era stats:
SWTOR never got an RPG guide, so I can't compare SWTOR's stats, I can however compare KOTOR's and attempt to scale from there. As one can see, Atris, The Jedi Exile, and Lucien Draay are all held within the same ballpark as Kol Skywalker within the s-canon realm. In fact, Bastila Shan is favored over all of them.
- KOTOR Stats:
Obviously the writers for the Legacy era Campaign Guide aren't afraid of giving characters from this era high CL and stats.
- Legacy Krayt and Roan Fel:
Bastila Shan is a extremely powerful Jedi, with great gift and skill to bear.
- SWTOR Encyclopedia wrote:"A Jedi strike team assembled to capture Revan--and redeem him, if possible. Under the command of the powerful Jedi Bastila Shan, the strike team attacked Revan's flagship, boarded his vessel, and confronted the mighty Sith."SWTOR Encyclopedia wrote:"Bastila's unique power of battle meditation soon drew Darth Malak's attention. By reaching out with the Force, Bastila could unite entire armies, boosting their morale and coordinating their attack. Darth Malak desired such power. And if Bastila refused to join him, Malak would simply destroy her."KOTOR Campaign Guide wrote:"Maybe the most heroic Jedi of her time, Bastila Shan was a Jedi exemplar. The dark side, however, erodes even the purest lights."KOTOR Campaign Guide wrote:"Her ability to affect minds blossoms with astounding speed and scope, and she becomes one of the youngest Jedi ever to master battle meditation. This sweeping Force power, which infuses allies with hope while simultaneously strangling enemy morale, has in the past reversed whole wars, and as the Jedi Civil War engulfs the galaxy, Bastila hopes to turn the tide toward the Jedi favor."KOTOR Campaign Guide wrote:" and Bastila uses the Force to keep Revan alive, establishing a telepathic bond between them. Upon returning to the Jedi Council with her Sith prize, she helps concoct an audacious plan. After using the Force to temporarily wipe Revan's memories, Bastila coaxes him into revealing priceless intelligence about the Sith enemy. The scheme is controversial at best. Mind-wiping is considered an immoral Force application, and there is no telling how Bastila's Force bond would affect her.KOTOR Campaign Guide wrote:"Amid this emotional turmoil, she is captured by Darth Malak, who twists her into his apprentice."
Many of her descendants are believed to have inherited her (and Revan's) Force power. This includes the Jedi Grandmaster Satele Shan.
- SWTOR Encyclopedia wrote:"Master Satele is heir to a line of powerful Jedi. She claims to be a descendant of the once-fallen hero Revan, and Bastila Shan, whose battle meditation skills were peerless. Though there is immense power in the Shan bloodline, there is also a streak of unorthodoxy."SWTOR Encyclopedia wrote:"As an adolescent, Satele trained with Battlemaster Kao Cen Darach. It was he who taught Satele to fight with a double-bladed lightsaber and guided her through the final trials to become a full-fledged Jedi Knight."SWTOR Codex: Satele Shan wrote:“Grand Master of the Jedi Order and leader of the Jedi Council, Satele Shan was born on the Core World of Brentaal Four and is descended from legendary Jedi Bastila Shan.”SWTOR Codex: Satele Shan wrote:“In person, Satele’s strength in the Force is matched with a keen intelligence and a subtle sense of humor. “
Alongside all of this, Satele is a veteran of a 28 year long spanning war.
- Great Galactic War:
- SWTOR Codex: Satele Shan wrote:“Satele has played a key role in recent galactic history in other ways, as well. She fought on the front lines of several major battles–including the battles of Alderaan and Rhen Var–and was present as a Padawan during the Imperial retaking of Korriban, the first modern contact between the Sith Empire and the Republic. She is greatly respected by certain members of the Republic military, and her advice is often sought by the Supreme Chancellor.”
It is not unreasonable to presume that by the end of the war, that Jedi Knight Satele Shan is greatly more masterful and experienced than her ancestor in Bastila, while also inheriting her ancestor's Force strength. Thus, one can can predict a great deal of superiority of Satele Shan over her ancestor in Bastila Shan.
As I showed previously, the writer of Threat of Peace holds both Angral and Baras over Satele as of the ToC. In addition, Satele admits inferiority to the Hero of Tython after he defeats Angral (with help).
- Angral Superiority:
- Satele Shan, JK Act 1 wrote:"We've lost one of our noblest Masters, but in his place stands a Jedi without equal."Satele Shan, JK Act 1 wrote:"But he also forged our greatest weapon against the darkness."
Thus it is fairly reasonable to suggest a scaling chain such as Angral > ToC Satele >> Bastila Shan > Kol Skywalker >~ K'Kruhk
Darth Angral is superior to Lord Fulminiss and ToC Satele Shan.
Lord Fulminiss displays far superior telepathic feats than either Cade Skywalker or Darth Wyyrlock III.
ToC Satele should be far superior to her ancestor Bastila Shan.
Bastila Shan is heavily supported to being > Kol Skywalker in S-canon stats.
Kol's status as a Skywalker and as the senior Jedi Council member supports the concept of Kol > K'Kruhk.
Total Character Count: 3260/3500
July 12th 2021, 5:29 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
The Hero of Tython
Regarding your point of Lord Fulminiss, I completely disagree with the idea that someone who can challenge Act III HoT to be below Darth Angral, especially since that would necessitate that Act I HoT to be above his Act III self, despite him being far more powerful, experienced, and knowledgeable in the Force.
Act I HoT defeated Darth Angral, and right after had to defeat Kira while she was possessed by the Emperor. Kira’s help against Angral would be minimal, since the Hero was already the strongest Jedi Orgus/Morr had ever seen, and only grew after said statement.
The Old Republic, Orgus Din wrote:“The Force is strong in you. Stronger than I've seen in decades.”
The Old Republic, Bengel Morr wrote:“You are stronger than any Jedi I have known.”
Act II HoT then is selected as one of the Jedi to go after the Emperor, each Jedi of this strike team are the most powerful of the Order.
The Old Republic Encyclopedia wrote:With Grand Master Satele Shan's support, Master Braga assembles a strike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the order. Their goal is to pinpoint the Emperor's hidden fortress, capture the Sith leader alive, and turn him to the light side.
Act II HoT then stalemates Lord Scourge in a duel, Scourge who was the Emperor’s personal executioner (who should be well above Angral).
Lord Scourge Codex Entry wrote:As the Sith Emperor’s personal executioner, the grimly fatalistic Lord Scourge has personally killed more than a hundred Jedi–and ten times as many Sith. Even the most powerful members of the Dark Council avoid offending the man bearing the title “the Emperor’s Wrath.
The Old Republic wrote:You fought Lord Scourge to a standstill until he broke off the battle for some reason. See what he has to say in the throne room of the Emperor's fortress.
Act II HoT fails to stop the Emperor, becomes a Sith Lord and trains for months in the dark side.
The Old Republic wrote:The spirit of Master Orgus explained that during your confrontation with the Emperor, your mind was dominated, and you were temporarily turned to the dark side by his power. You’ve recovered your senses, but the Sith still believe you to be a slave to the Emperor’s will. Overseer Chaskar arrived to continue your training in the ways of the Sith.
Act II HoT then breaks from the Emperor’s TP, flees with Scourge and battles and defeats one of the Jedi who accompanied him and fell to the dark side (who naturally became more powerful). Then, despite all these showings and growth, Scourge believes that Lord Fulminiss is a threat to an Act III Hero, who is exponentially above Act I Hero.
It is unreasonable to believe that Lord Fulminiss, the greatest Sorcerer of the Empire, is below Darth Baras Pre-ToC. He not only has a supremacy quote over every sorcerer in the Empire, but also is a threat to a far more powerful Hero (who himself is the most powerful Jedi in decades).
The Old Republic, Darth Acina wrote:"They are the only surviving work of the Empire's greatest alchemist, Lord Fulminiss. A Jedi Knight on Voss deprived us of his genius."
Now, I want to bring an example to compare to your own usage of Bastila, that is Kol Skywalker. Despite him training for far more time than Anakin Skywalker, and despite being a part of the same family that had some of the greatest potentials ever, he still was only on par with S1 Anakin per stats.
Per your logic, Kol should be above Anakin, and although you can argue that Anakin is more gifted than Kol, it doesn’t take away the fact that Kol is a Skywalker too and trained for forty or more years under the Jedi. While Anakin only trained for about 10 years or so up to Season 1. Bastila had already mastered fighting styles and one of the most difficult Force techniques by her Padawan years, and only grew with time after becoming a Jedi Knight, she isn’t less masterful than Satele, as she had already showed a natural affinity with the Force and mastered several techniques by that point.
Knights of the Old Republic Prima Guide wrote:Bastila Shan is the quintessential Jedi: trained from a very young age and gifted with a natural ability with the Force that has given her both renown and considerable pride.
Knights of the Old Republic, Carth Onasi wrote:"But Bastila's young, and she has a powerful command of the Force."
So Bastila isn’t far below Satele Shan. There is no definitive proof that binds Bastila below Satele. However, this ties to K’Kruhk.
The Grand Master
Asajj Ventress, of all enemies ever faced by the Jedi, was second only to Dooku. That caps DS Bastila, who was way more powerful than her LS self (TK throwing Jolee, Juhani and Revan on Rakata Prime).
Asajj Ventress > DS Bastila >> LS Bastila
K’Kruhk stats during the Clone Wars put him a little above Asajj Ventress stats, that is mid-war K’Kruhk per the CG. K’Kruhk, as a Jedi General, goes on to fight other campaigns.
ROTS K’Kruhk > Mid-War K’Kruhk > ~ Asajj Ventress > DS Bastila >> LS Bastila
K’Kruhk then goes on to train several Jedi during his time in the NJO, a NJO who also had access to knowledge that was buried in Ossus for thousands of years. Master Yoda notes that training younglings and other Padawans was a way to a Jedi improve himself too. So:
NJO K’Kruhk >> ROTS K’Kruhk > Mid-War K’Kruhk > ~ Asajj Ventress > DS Bastila >> LS Bastila
Then K’Kruhk is selected as the Grand Master of the Order, which is a title bestowed upon the greatest of all masters.
Grand Master K’Kruhk >> NJO K’Kruhk >> ROTS K’Kruhk > Mid-War K’Kruhk >~ Asajj Ventress > DS Bastila >> LS Bastila
It is unclear whether Satele surpasses Bastila or not, as the former is seen as a legendary figure by SWTOR’s time, but Bastila is certainly capped by the HoT, who defeated Angral in combat.
Grand Master K’Kruhk >> NJO K’Kruhk >> ROTS K’Kruhk > Mid-War K’Kruhk >~ Asajj Ventress > DS Bastila >> LS Bastila < HoT > Darth Angral
- Darth Rymrgand
July 12th 2021, 10:04 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
All that this means is that there is context behind why Fulminiss is a threat. Likewise, you must provide some measure of evidence to support a large gap between Act 1 and Act 3 Hero.AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Regarding your point of Lord Fulminiss, I completely disagree with the idea that someone who can challenge Act III HoT to be below Darth Angral, especially since that would necessitate that Act I HoT to be above his Act III self, despite him being far more powerful, experienced, and knowledgeable in the Force."
- SWTOR Codex: The Nightmare Lands wrote:“Said by Voss and outsiders alike to cause insanity in those foolish enough to venture there, the Nightmare Lands are a dangerous region far from Voss-Ka, overgrown with twisted forests. The weather there is unpredictable, and strange sounds and lights have been reported by distant observers. No one knows what caused the corruption of these lands, but many Jedi and Sith claim to sense a powerful dark presence within. Despite the dangers–and numerous warnings from the Voss–some outsiders still brave the Nightmare Lands to loot the ruins or investigate secrets. A few daring Mystics have also made pilgrimages there in an attempt to heal whatever plagues the land. Most of these explorers are simply never seen again; the rest are left to wander the forests, broken and mad. The Nightmare Lands are a blight on Voss; unfortunately, they are a blight nobody seems able to cure.”
Fighting a possessed Kira doesn't mean that she was not needed. Hero being the "strongest" Jedi isn't relevant to whether Kira actually provides much needed help against Angral. This is one of the very few times in SWTOR where a companion's aid in battle is recognized, not just one but thrice. Kira's own dialogue does not sound like one whose aid was irrelevant.AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Act I HoT defeated Darth Angral, and right after had to defeat Kira while she was possessed by the Emperor. Kira’s help against Angral would be minimal, since the Hero was already the strongest Jedi Orgus/Morr had ever seen, and only grew after said statement."
- Kira Aid:
Cool, half of the team is shown to be pathetic and Kira has scaling in resisting the Emperor's control far better than any of the strike team does.AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Act II HoT then is selected as one of the Jedi to go after the Emperor, each Jedi of this strike team are the most powerful of the Order."
- Strike Team:
- SWTOR Codex: Warren Sedoru wrote:“The price of these triumphs was high, however. Records indicate Warren was critically injured over a dozen times in battles from Alderaan to Yavin Four. Although he survived these near-deaths without need of cybernetic replacement parts, Warren’s connection to the Force began to diminish. When the Republic signed the Treaty of Coruscant, Warren dedicated himself wholeheartedly to peace. He gave up his rank as Jedi Knight and became a Padawan to Master Tol Braga. “SWTOR Codex: Leeha Narezz wrote:“Among her peers, Jedi Leeha Narezz is considered something of an eccentric. She frequently eschews time with fellow Jedi to meditate with and instruct a trio of droids she built called the “Meedees.” Leeha believes that the Force is not accessible only to living creatures–indeed, she asserts that even droids can use it if they go long enough without a memory-wipe. Despite her unusual beliefs, no one in the order disputes that Leeha is one of the finest technologists in the Republic. Repeated attempts by the military to direct her talents toward engines of war have failed, however. She remains firmly committed to peaceful applications of technology that warm the homeless, feed the hungry and protect the weak. “SWTOR Codex: The Fall of Tol Braga wrote:“Unlike Warren Sedoru and Leeha Narezz, Master Braga did not require the Emperor's oppressive domination to remain obedient. He knowingly surrendered to the power of the dark side, believing it was his punishment for allowing pride to blind him to the Sith's true nature.”
Over a massively powerful dark side nexus. Scourge would perform worse elsewhere. None of this disproves that Angral would still be a valid threat to the HoT.AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Act II HoT then stalemates Lord Scourge in a duel, Scourge who was the Emperor’s personal executioner (who should be well above Angral)"
- SWTOR Codex: The Emperor's Space Station wrote:“The Emperor’s space station is as much temple as fortress. Built by the Empire’s finest engineers–many of whom never left their creation–the station is a blend of modern and incredibly ancient technology. The cloaking device which keeps the station invisible uses Gree technology, while the station’s power core and security features are Rakata in design. The station is vast, comprising an unknown number of decks and chambers. Dozens of rooms store artifacts the Emperor gathered over the centuries, while prisoners whose identities are long forgotten float in stasis chambers. Traditionally, the privileged few who had audiences on the station were brought there by the Emperor’s servants, with no memories of the journey. In the hands of Darth Malgus, the space station has become a new and terrible weapon–but one with many secrets yet to be unlocked. Malgus and his servants have much to learn about their headquarters and its full capabilities.”Essential Guide to Warfare wrote:"They were known as the Rakata, or the Builders, a species of bipeds with amphibian features whose technologies were powered by the Force."
Have you played the Rishi mission? This training is a mental scar and provides 0 benefit to the HoT as of Act 3.AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Act II HoT fails to stop the Emperor, becomes a Sith Lord and trains for months in the dark side."
The only reasoning that you've provided any reasoning for is dark side training, which is irrelevant. I can buy act 1 Hero < act 3 Hero, but see no reason to see an exponential gap.AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Then, despite all these showings and growth, Scourge believes that Lord Fulminiss is a threat to an Act III Hero, who is exponentially above Act I Hero."
Neither Baras nor Angral are sorcerers, nor are they alchemists. Nothing that you've cited goes against Sel-Makor calling Baras a "greater Sith" than Fulminiss.AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"It is unreasonable to believe that Lord Fulminiss, the greatest Sorcerer of the Empire, is below Darth Baras Pre-ToC. He not only has a supremacy quote over every sorcerer in the Empire, but also is a threat to a far more powerful Hero (who himself is the most powerful Jedi in decades)."
Kol's stats are higher than S1 Anakin's in key areas such as Force (7 vs 6), Use The force, 2 extra Jedi ranks (2 Jedi Master vs 2 pilot), etc. This should suggest that Kol is a greater Force user than S1 Anakin. In contrast to the Shan bloodline, we know that while all Skywalkers are strong in the Force, there are still big gaps in potential. In fact, Satele is a descendant of two legendary Force users, and thus also inherits some of Revan's power.AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Despite him training for far more time than Anakin Skywalker, and despite being a part of the same family that had some of the greatest potentials ever, he still was only on par with S1 Anakin per stats."
AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Bastila had already mastered fighting styles and one of the most difficult Force techniques by her Padawan years, and only grew with time after becoming a Jedi Knight, she isn’t less masterful than Satele, as she had already showed a natural affinity with the Force and mastered several techniques by that point."
You have provided 0 evidence for this. Need I remind you of the concept of wargrowth? Unlike Kol vs Anakin, there isn't evidence to suggest that Satele is a lesser prodigy than Bastila.
- War Growth:
- I, Jedi by Michael Stackpole wrote:“The Jedi Master looked at me and I felt electricity run through his blue-eyed gaze. When we had met before I had felt power in him, but now, after his experiences with the Emperor Reborn, his power had been redoubled. Physically he looked a bit haggard and worn, with the flesh around his eyes having tightened and wrinkles appearing at their corners. I knew we were the same age chronologically, but in experience he far surpassed me.”Revenge of the Sith Adult Novelization by Matthew Stover wrote:“Skywalker, by contrast, looked every bit the HoloNet hero he was supposed to be. He seemed to tower over his companions; as though he had somehow gotten even taller in the months since Mace had seen him last. His hair was tousled, his color was high, and his walk still had the grounded grace of a natural fighter, but there was something new in his physicality: in the way he moved his head, perhaps, of the way the weight of Palpatine’s arm on his shoulders seemed to belong there . . . or something less definable. Some new ease, new confidence. An aura of under power. Presence. Skywalker was not the same young man the Council had sent off to the Outer Rim five standard months ago.”Star War Databanks: Luke Skywalker wrote:”With each passing year, Luke grew more powerful in the Force, and his exploits in the Alliance gained a higher profile.”Darth Malgus, Book of the Sith wrote:“The essential quality of the Force is conflict. Through conflict, the strong kill the weak and bring the living closer to perfection. The Sith Empire has served the Force by inciting conflict. But for true improvement to take place, I must at least give my soldiers a fighting chance against the enemies who seek to destroy them.”Darth Malgus, Book of the Sith wrote:“Despite his allegiance to Jedi blasphemy, he at least appears to grasp the truth of improvement through combat.”Deceived wrote:"The Sith and Jedi forces closed, Sith battle lust facing the calm of the Jedi, the floor of the Temple the arena where centuries of indeterminate strife would at last reach a conclusion. Those strong in the Force would survive and their understanding of the Force would evolve. Those weak in the Force would die."
You haven't any sufficient evidence to dismiss the claim. If there are two beings with equal, or similar, potential and one has more than double the time to grow, on top of spending far more time in conflict, it is reasonable to presume that the one with more time and conflict will have developed their abilities far beyond the other.AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"So Bastila isn’t far below Satele Shan. There is no definitive proof that binds Bastila below Satele."
Within the S-canon realm, Bastila's stats are well above both K'kruhk and Asajj Ventress. In addition, it is clear that there are several characters that are not meant to be bound below Ventress, and some even by Dooku. Suffice to say, this singular quote is an outlier and is the dissenting opinion.AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Asajj Ventress, of all enemies ever faced by the Jedi, was second only to Dooku. That caps DS Bastila, who was way more powerful than her LS self"
- Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords (Freedon Nadd's Blaster Pistol) wrote:“A vile weapon that once belonged to Freedon Nadd, this blaster has killed more Jedi then any lightsaber.”Official Starships and Vehicles Collection #63 wrote:"In that particular instance, Bane and Sidious were foiled, but Sidious' basic aims remained. He sought to create a network of Force-wielding agents loyal only to him. None would be trained sufficiently to be a threat to Darth Bane's insistence that there only be two Sith, nor would they be a threat to Darth Sidious or his apprentice, Darth Vader. The most powerful of these agents were "only" Sith adepts but would appear almost as dark Jedi - the likes of Asajj Ventress, Mara Jade, or Inquisitor Valin Draco (in fact, a fallen Jedi). The lesser agents were reduced to still-deadly faceless minions. Among their ranks were the Shadow Guard."Wizards of the Coast wrote:"The Star Wars universe has created some truly vile dark side villains. Have you ever wondered what would happen if the most powerful Sith Lords (Darth Sidious, Darth Caedus, and Darth Revan) duked it out for supremacy of the galaxy?"
Satele was also a Grand Master of the Order. K'Kruhk was only granted this title after the death of Kol.AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Then K’Kruhk is selected as the Grand Master of the Order, which is a title bestowed upon the greatest of all masters."
This is very much cap.AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"It is unclear whether Satele surpasses Bastila or not, as the former is seen as a legendary figure by SWTOR’s time"
As of the Sacking of Coruscant, Angral is a clear superior of the Sith Lord Darth Malgus.
Sacking of Coruscant
- Malgus Wojak:
- Deceived wrote:"'I’m pleased to hear it. Now sit , Malgus.' Angral’s tone left no doubt that the words were not a suggestion.
Malgus picked his way through the artwork."Deceived wrote:"Angral waved a hand dismissively. “No apologies are necessary. I solicited his report directly.”
Malgus did not know what to make of that and did not like that he did not know. “Directly? Why?”
“Do you believe that I owe you an explanation, Darth Malgus?”
Malgus had misstepped again. “No, my lord.”Deceived wrote:"Adraas placed his wine chalice on Angral’s desk. “An excellent vintage, Darth Angral. But right at the end of its cellar life.”
“I think so, too,” Angral said.
“Let things linger around overlong and they can turn rancid.”
“Agreed,” Angral said.
Malgus missed nothing, but could say nothing.
Adraas snapped his fingers as if he had just remembered something. “Oh! Darth Malgus, I do regret that I had to refuse your woman treatment aboard Steadfast. ”Deceived wrote:"Angral drew himself up to his full height. “You will, both of you, follow my commands without question or hesitation. I will deal harshly with any deviation from that order. Do you understand?”
Angral had directed the rebuke at both of them, but Malgus understood it to be intended for him.
“Yes, Darth Angral,” they said in unison.
“You are servants of the Empire.”
Malgus, stewing, said nothing.
“Both of you leave me, now,” Angral said.
Still seething, Malgus walked for the door. Adraas fell in a stride behind him."Deceived wrote:"He did not need to be skilled in political maneuvering to understand that Angral ordering him into an unimportant role was a way of sending the clear message that he was out of favor. Angral had used him just long enough to ensure the success of the sacking of Coruscant, and now he was being edged aside in favor of Lord Adraas. In the span of a day he had gone from the conqueror of Coruscant to a second-tier Darth."Deceived wrote:"Malgus chuckled, the sound loud off the high ceiling. “You have foreseen it but you cannot stop it. You are a child, Adraas. And tonight you pay. Angral is not here to protect you. No one is.'”
The Sith Lord Darth Sidious has access to a fragment of Darth Malgus' journal from prior to the Sacking of Coruscant.
- Book of the Sith:
- Darth Sidious, Book of the Sith wrote:“The excerpts from the journal of Darth Malgus kept during the Great Galactic War some thirty-six centuries ago are a prime example of how a wounded warrior can be sustained by rage. The war was unbounded success for the era’s Sith Emperor, and Malgus was one of his best soldiers. I obtained this text many decades ago from a dealer in antiquities, and have recently passed it to Darth Vader, so he might gain inspiration.”Luke Skywalker, Book of the Sith wrote:“From statements made in the journal, Malgus seems to have been writing toward the tail end of the Great Galactic War, probably only a year or two before the Sacking of Coruscant in 3,653 B.B.Y. My father’s comments must have been recorded shortly after his transformation into the Emperor’s servant.”
The knowledge that Sidious gained from Malgus' journal was key to discovering the power of Force Storms.
- Book of Anger:
- Darth Sidious, Book of Anger wrote:
“Through the principles of anger, I will structure and maintain my Empire. 0]]The writings of Darth Malgus confirm that anger, conbined with will, is the key to power.[/u] When anger intensified to rage, it is unstoppable. Malgus submitted utterly to the dark side, and doing so made him an exemplary warrior. His battlefield feats have never been duplicated.”Darth Sidious, Book of Anger wrote:“Already, I have perfected the Force maelstrom, which creates an invulnerable energy sphere to block incoming attacks while bombarding enemies with debris and electrifying them with bolts of lightning. This technique can be increased into a Force Storm. The churning energy mass of a Force Storm can consume everything it touched, did at its eye is pure hate.”
So Darth Malgus, a confirmed inferior of the Sith Lord Darth Angral, was not only the key to Palpatine's "ultimate power" but he also greatly impressed Palpatine in terms of both knowledge and power. This in itself should support the notion of Angral > Malgus > Asajj, if not have Malgus over even more PT era combatants.
Opponent argues vast growth between acts 1 and 3 for HoT, provides no reasoning other than dark side training.
Ignores that HoT had PTSD from time under Emperor's domination and thus hid memories of time under his control.
Opponent gave 0 contention for Fulminiss vs Legacy comparison.
Opponent argues that sorcerer and alchemist quotes bind non-sorcerers and non-alchemists.
Nothing contradicts Sel-Makor's claim of Baras being "greater than Fulminiss".
Kol's stats are stronger in the Force and highlight greater training and experience than TCW S1 Anakin.
Opponent argues Bastila ~ Satele.
I argue that nearly 30 years of more experience and time to further develop her talents would give Satele a large edge over her legendary ancestor.
1 quote for Asajj > all previous threats to Jedi
Contradicted by countless sources.
Angral > Malgus.
Book of the Sith hypes Malgus immensely.
Character Limit: 4259/4721
July 17th 2021, 11:05 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Plag wrote:All that this means is that there is context behind why Fulminiss is a threat. Likewise, you must provide some measure of evidence to support a large gap between Act 1 and Act 3 Hero.
I will first look at Scourge to explain the gap. He is pretty much above every other Sith in the Empire, where even the most powerful of the Dark Council fear him, he was specifically tasked to execute the most powerful Sith/Jedi that rose in the galaxy, and after Scourge fled, the most powerful Sith Lords of the Empire were considered to become the Wrath, yet no one was chosen.
Quotes wrote:"He's sending his personal executioner for me. His wrath incarnate. I'll be punished for my crimes."
"Who is the Emperor's Wrath? A Sith Lord?"
"A ghost. Older than anyone except the Emperor himself. Even the Dark Council fears him."
-- Sajar and the Hero of Tython, The Old Republic
"Even the most powerful members of the Dark Council avoid offending the man bearing the title, “the Emperor’s Wrath.”
-- Lord Scourge Codex Entry, The Old Republic
"After Lord Scourge shed the mantle of the Wrath under mysterious circumstances, the Emperor's Hand set out to find a replacement. Millions of the galaxy's most powerful Sith were considered, but ultimately only one would prove worthy to serve the Emperor."
-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia
"As the Sith Emperor’s personal executioner, the grimly fatalistic Lord Scourge has personally killed more than a hundred Jedi–and ten times as many Sith.”
-- Lord Scourge Entry, The Old Republic
"Entire generations of the Sith Dark Council have passed under the watchful eyes of the Emperor's personal executioner, the grim Lord Scourge. As the feared "Emperor's Wrath," Scourge enforced his Master's will for more than three centuries. When a Jedi grew too powerful or a Sith too ambitious, Scourge eliminated the threat. Conspiracy theories held that Scourge was a title rather than a man, for even pureblooded Sith are mortal... However, the Dark Council knew the truth. There was only one Scourge, his life prolonged by Sith alchemy, and his battle prowess enhance by the Emperor."
-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia
Scourge was an expert swordsman; at the Academy even the instructors had been reluctant to face him in the training ring. When the dark side flowed through him, his blade was more than a weapon. It became an extension of his will.
Captain Yarri’s skill with her electrostaff was impressive, but ultimately she was no match for a Sith Lord. Knowing this, she had wisely adopted a defensive style to hold off the first few flurries of Scourge’s attack, her focus on stalling him long enough for one of her companions to join the fray before switching to a more aggressive form.
Now Scourge was forced to defend himself on two fronts as he backed into the throne room. In his peripheral vision he saw that Meetra was in a similar situation, retreating while battling a pair of enemies.
The fact that Revan hadn’t come to their aid told Scourge that the Jedi had gone to confront the Emperor, conjuring up images from Scourge’s vision of him lying broken and beaten on the floor at the Emperor’s feet.
Yarri’s staff slipped through his defenses and clipped him on his right shoulder. Scourge’s armor absorbed the worst of the blow, though he felt a painful jolt from the electrostaff’s charge that made his hand and arm tingle.
Even as Scourge cursed himself for allowing thoughts of his vision to distract him, he deftly switched his blade from his temporarily numb right hand to his left. The move was dangerous; it left him momentarily vulnerable as he made the switch. Fortunately his opponents were unprepared for the unorthodox tactic, and neither was able to take advantage.
While he and Meetra fought the quartet of guards, T3-M4 was busy sealing the doors. The droid was spraying black foam along the edge where the double doors came together. Scourge recognized the foam as a powerful contact adhesive commonly used to repair starships; seconds after being exposed to air it would harden into a substance that could be cut only with a plasma torch.
Yarri’s blade nearly caught him again, narrowly missing his cheek, and Scourge swore out loud. If he didn’t stay focused on the fight, his vision of the Emperor killing him wouldn’t even have a chance to come true....
Scourge pressed his attack, calling on the dark side to transform his uncertainty and fear into white-hot rage. He felt the power coursing through him, the spark of fury deep inside him igniting into a firestorm of death and destruction.
Left-handed, Scourge unleashed a pair of savage chops at Yarri’s partner, using raw brute strength to overpower his physically weaker opponent. The guard parried the blows, but the first knocked him off balance and the second sent him stumbling backward.
While the guard struggled to recover, Scourge focused his assault on the captain. Yarri sensed the shift in her opponent too late to switch back to a more defensive form, and the Sith Lord was quick to exploit the tactical flaw.
A four-move sequence overwhelmed Yarri, causing her to leave her right flank unprotected. Scourge seized the opportunity, his blade biting deep into her hip. Yarri screamed, dropped her blade, and fell to the ground. The other guard leapt to her defense, recklessly throwing himself between his fallen captain and Scourge. The only reward for his effort was a quick death, delivered by a diagonal lightsaber slash across his chest.
At Scourge’s feet, Yarri fumbled to reclaim her weapon. The agony of her wound made her desperate and clumsy, giving Scourge time to relish her suffering. As her fingers wrapped around the hilt of her electrostaff, he brought his boot down on top of her hand, crushing the bones.
He stared into the captain’s eyes one last time, savoring her terror before decapitating her with a single stroke.
-- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
(Note that it’s pre-Act II Scourge, and he beat soldiers who even the Dark Council feared)
-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia
It is self-evident that Scourge is above the Dark Council, which should put him above Angral too. After all, he is Vitiate’s personal executioner.
Yet, on a powerful DS Nexus, the HoT stalemates him. If HoT is going from Sub-Angral to on par, or above, the Wrath, it is unlikely that he didn’t have immense growth. Also, the Wrath says the Hero is “the finest” of the Jedi, being above Kira, who you showed had growth from Act I to II. Scourge’s comments also put him above the Jedi who “grew too powerful” that the Wrath had to execute, which cements the idea of a parity between the two.
Fulminiss is also using his TP powers on people who are willingly to become subdued, as is shown in the Healing Shrine (the healers didn’t expect him to do that/it's also a place of "ancient power"), and his apprentices (who are fodder and wouldn’t fight back). The ritual he would perform is also made on a mega potent DS Nexus.
-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia
-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia
(Aayla willingly submitting to Karkko's influence, which makes it easier)
-- Fact File 98
Cade wipes Maladi’s memories of Ossus, not all her memories. She doesn’t show to remember what happened on the planet, other than Cade using the Force on her (which is purposeful considering Cade’s nature). Now, Maladi is highly hyped in Legacy as one of the best Sith Lords of Krayt. And Cade is successful in his TP, despite being his first time ever using that power.
(Krayt asking Maladi for her knowledge on Sith Alchemy)
Extremly skilled in both Sith alchemy and the manipulation of Yuuzhan Vong bioengineering, Darth Maladi is very much a student of science as well as mysticism.
-- Legacy Campaign Guide
The most powerful Sith Lords possess a talent for the dark alchemy of the Sith. The Emperor, like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun long before him, became a master of manipulating the genetic building blocks of living creatures through the dark side.
-- Dark Side Sourcebook
Then you’re comparing Wyyrlok TP influencing Krayt (intended to be around/above ROTS Titans), not a good comparison. Fulminiss is performing those feats either on a nexus or on people who aren’t expecting/are submitting to his influence. His base version should not scale him above either of the Legacy's feats.
Quotes wrote:“Imperial Knights. Yes, in the first two issues you see every one you encounter die. But look at who they are up against. The first four are up against Darth Krayt himself. We saw Palpatine take out four Jedi masters; I submit it doesn't put the IK in a bad light to suggest that Krayt is in that class.”
-- John Ostrander
-- Legacy Campaign Guide
-- The Clone Wars Campaign Guide
Plag wrote:Cool, half of the team is shown to be pathetic and Kira has scaling in resisting the Emperor's control far better than any of the strike team does.
Not sure why any of these quotes are relevant? The quotes still say they are the best of the Order, that would only put a growth Kira above them, and Hero above Kira.
Plag wrote:Neither Baras nor Angral are sorcerers, nor are they alchemists. Nothing that you've cited goes against Sel-Makor calling Baras a "greater Sith" than Fulminiss.
I’ve never said that quote binds Baras or Angral, just mentioned that it seems unreasonable to me that a character so high in the hierarchy to be so far below per one quote only.
Plag wrote:Kol's stats are higher than S1 Anakin's in key areas such as Force (7 vs 6), Use The force, 2 extra Jedi ranks (2 Jedi Master vs 2 pilot), etc. This should suggest that Kol is a greater Force user than S1 Anakin. In contrast to the Shan bloodline, we know that while all Skywalkers are strong in the Force, there are still big gaps in potential. In fact, Satele is a descendant of two legendary Force users, and thus also inherits some of Revan's power.
Funny thing is that Kol is possibly the son of Ben Skywalker, who is hinted to be stronger in the Force than Anakin, who was already above Luke in potential. Being the son of someone with Luke+ potential, gives the descendant a lot of potential too, especially since Ben was romantically involved with another Force user. My point is about Anakin being close to Kol at that point, your logic needs to Kol to be far above, which isn’t the case.
Galactic Files wrote:
”That doesn’t explain the focus on Ben,’ Kyle said, ‘if it was just a matter of being a Force-user, Abeloth could have taken Valin or Jysella—or one of her Sith servants—just as easily. It’s something else . . . something that makes Ben special.
‘Well, he is a Skywalker,’ Kyp Durron pointed out. ‘The grandson of the Chosen One.’
‘And Jaina is a granddaughter of the Chosen One,’ Luke countered. ‘I’m more inclined to think it has something to do with Shelter. Maybe Abeloth just wants him because he withdrew from her touch when he was a toddler.’
Kyp shook his head. ‘Sorry, but no,’ he said. ‘Jaina is Han’s daughter just as much as Leia’s, and that means only one parent is a Force-user. Ben is the son of two parents who were very strong in the Force. No offense to Jaina, but Ben has Special Destiny written all over him.’
Luke’s face fell, and Jaina could tell by the silence that followed that he saw the wisdom of Kyp’s suggestion—as did everyone else at the table. Abeloth had gone after Ben because of what Ben was . . . and that meant she had something special in mind for him.”
-- Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse
(Jaina lesser than Ben -> reason that Ben was born from two Force users -> Anakin Solo was born from only one Force user)
As his Jedi uncle Luke Skywalker watches his growth, Anakin doesn’t realise he may have the strongest Force powers of his lineage.
-- Star Wars: 1996 Finest #41 Anakin Solo
Anakin's bold stance and daring nature made him into a popular figure among the Jedi and New Republic. Many privately whispered that he would someday take Luke Skywalker's place as the most powerful Jedi. The bloody events of the ongoing war would indisputably provide an answer to that speculation.
-- Anakin Solo Databank
The youngest of Han and Leia Solo’s children. All three Solo offspring are strong in the ways of the Force, although Anakin is especially gifted and may one day become the most powerful Jedi the galaxy has ever known.
-- Star Wars: Behind the Magic
Inheriting his mother’s and his grandfather’s Force abilities, Anakin Solo had the potential to become the greatest Jedi of his generation.
-- Star Wars Fact File #114
It’s evident that potential won’t indicate that the characters are on the same power level/above after a x amount of time, because if that were so, Kol Skywalker (who is the son of someone with Luke+ potential) should be well above S1 Anakin, and not put on the same challenge level as him (CL is credited as the difficulty of the fight, and Kol and Anakin share the same level). In fact, Kol fought a three-year war against the Imperial/Sith Forces, which, as you’ve shown, makes characters powerful.
The Essential Guide to Warfare wrote:
-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia: Volume III
Plag wrote:Within the S-canon realm, Bastila's stats are well above both K'kruhk and Asajj Ventress.
Bastila’s stats are outdated. The character level in Saga never surpasses 20, as those that are in that level are “the most powerful”; and WOTC never showed any hint to change this. So, had Saga extended to SWTOR, characters’ stats would be changed to accommodate the new additions, Bastila’s stats should only count to 2009.
Wizards of the Coast wrote:Q: Is Wizards of the Coast ever going to release an "Epic Level Handbook" for the Star Wars Roleplaying Game?
A: Wizards has announced no intention to do so. The major stumbling blocks are that the most powerful characters in the Star Wars universe are themselves 20th level. Some people see that as a mistake, though, saying that characters like Yoda, the Emperor, Mace Windu, Darth Vader, and Luke Skywalker (circa The New Jedi Order era) should be higher level. There's a certain amount of logic to that argument, but not enough to justify a sourcebook to support a handful of nonplayer characters.
Many people who ask about an epic-level sourcebook for Star Wars really just want to have characters advance beyond 20th level. But nothing in the revised core rulebook says that you absolutely can't; it's your campaign, after all. Just extend Table 3-1: Experience and Level-Dependent Benefits; the progression is fairly clear.
If, on the other hand, what you really want are epic-level feats, you're probably best served by simply converting feats from the Epic Level Handbook for Dungeons & Dragons.
Plag wrote:In addition, it is clear that there are several characters that are not meant to be bound below Ventress, and some even by Dooku. Suffice to say, this singular quote is an outlier and is the dissenting opinion.
The first quote is about gameplay; the Nihilus quotes means nothing, Ventress can still be above; Karness’ spirit didn’t fight the Jedi Order as a whole (which is what the quote references); those are 2011 scans, Ventress doesn’t bind them; Nadd quote is pre-TOTJ era only; Vader quote is about training; I doubt that Revan quote has greater LFL involvement than the successor to Fact Files.
Plag wrote:So Darth Malgus, a confirmed inferior of the Sith Lord Darth Angral, was not only the key to Palpatine's "ultimate power" but he also greatly impressed Palpatine in terms of both knowledge and power. This in itself should support the notion of Angral > Malgus > Asajj, if not have Malgus over even more PT era combatants.
Malgus being impressive per Sidious isn’t a bind to the PT characters, especially Ventress, who Sidious even fears her growth in power. The quote about his feats could fall into his military strategy prowess. Especially when Yoda is compared to SoR Revan in combat (although not a bind it shows that the intention for high level PT characters isn’t to be below ToC Malgus/likewise, the gap between Yoda and Ventress is not as big as the gap between Revan and ToC Malgus).
Charles Boyd wrote:
"Revan should be like Yoda or something. You almost never have a movie about Yoda or a show. There are a few episodes in the Clone Wars that are about Yoda. Yoda mostly just shows up and just is awesome and then moves on and then the other characters are just left dealing with it right. That's the way you use Revan."
-- Charles Boyd
What is a Sith Warrior? wrote:
In the end, you haven’t disproved my chain, nor have you made a convincing case for Satele >> Bastila. The TP comparisons don’t hold up for their circumstances, and the Malgus quote is autistic. K’Kruhk wins.
Character count: 4,814.
- Darth Rymrgand
July 21st 2021, 12:07 am
It is factually incorrect that nobody was chosen to become the new Emperor's Wrath. Let us take a look at the Second Emperor's Wrath.AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"I will first look at Scourge to explain the gap. He is pretty much above every other Sith in the Empire, where even the most powerful of the Dark Council fear him, he was specifically tasked to execute the most powerful Sith/Jedi that rose in the galaxy, and after Scourge fled, the most powerful Sith Lords of the Empire were considered to become the Wrath, yet no one was chosen."
- Sith Warrior Act III:
- Prelude to Corellia wrote:Wrath: "Why not just kill Baras? Nothing else would matter if Baras was taken out."
Servant One: "For now, he is untouchable. But Vowrawn can grant you access to him."Darth Marr, Senior Dark Council Member wrote:"You are acknowledged, Wrath. Your actions will not be challenged as long as they do not contradict our own."Prelude to final confrontation with Baras wrote:Wrath: "He will suffer greatly. I'm going to make him pay for every indignity I have endured."
Servant Two: "Fury must remain shy of blind."Prelude to final confrontation with Baras wrote:Wrath: "The ultimate test awaits. This will be my greatest challenge."
Servant Two: "Baras' power is deep, hidden."Servant One to Emperor's Wrath wrote:"To stand among the Darths, you will need Vowrawn close."Servant One to Emperor's Wrath wrote:"The Dark Council doesn't take kindly to intrusions, and Baras still has support there. Vowrawn must back you, then you must express the Emperor's will."SWTOR Encyclopedia wrote:"Fueled by revenge and guided by the Emperor's Hand, the Sith warrior sets out to destroy Darth Baras before he seizes control of the Empire. The Emperor's Wrath joins forces with Darth Vowrawn, a charming member of the Dark Council, to weaken Baras and support the challenge against the Wrath's former Master. When all the pieces are in place, the Wrath prepares for the final crushing assault against Darth Baras.
The Emperor's Wrath ultimately marches into the Dark Council chambers to expose Darth Baras as a fraud and a traitor who lies about speaking the Emperor's will. But to prove such a bold claim to the Dark Council, the Wrath battles Darth Baras in a fierce duel. The Wrath emerges triumphant, striking down the ruined and seething Baras."
So the Wrath faced a large portion of the Voice's power, controlled by Sel-Makor. Scourge on the other hand.
- Lord Scourge wrote:"I will fly us to the Emperor's temple, but you must face him alone. No one else can resist his direct influence."Lord Scourge wrote:"Don't be foolish. We have surprised the Emperor, but he will recover quickly. We cannot grant him time to gather his power."
Yet Scourge is already admitting that Fulminiss and his apprentices are a threat to an individual that is a greater combatant than him. Scourge also admits that those who are "strong enough to challenge" the emperor are often "co-opted into the dark council".AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"It is self-evident that Scourge is above the Dark Council, which should put him above Angral too. After all, he is Vitiate’s personal executioner."
- Scourge sucks:
- Lord Scourge wrote:"Lord Fulminiss is dangerous. As are his apprentices. This won't be easy."
Likewise, I am sure that you are aware that a similar situation allowed for 6 random Sith sabers to give Luke and Jaina difficulty.
- Fate of the Jedi:
- Fate of the Jedi: Ascension wrote:“Luke and Jaina were fighting back-to-back. The Sith attacking them had two advantages. One was the fact that they outnumbered the two Jedi. The second was the dark-side nexus within the temple. It surged forth like psychic sewage, clogging the Jedi’s reflexes as it fueled their enemies. But Luke had fought the Lost Tribe before, and he knew their style. He knew, too, that because until recently they had only sparred and perhaps dueled amongst themselves, they had a lot to learn. But even Luke Skywalker would be foolish not to completely focus on a battle against six Sith.”
Check above for why I question Scourge supremacy. What is relevant here is that Kira is a extremely potent combatant herself.AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Yet, on a powerful DS Nexus, the HoT stalemates him. If HoT is going from Sub-Angral to on par, or above, the Wrath, it is unlikely that he didn’t have immense growth. Also, the Wrath says the Hero is “the finest” of the Jedi, being above Kira, who you showed had growth from Act I to II. Scourge’s comments also put him above the Jedi who “grew too powerful” that the Wrath had to execute, which cements the idea of a parity between the two."
Shrine amps Voss, don't see any of those people as "willing". Disagree on apprentices being fodder. Ritual being on a nexus is why my main focus is his showings off of it.AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Fulminiss is also using his TP powers on people who are willingly to become subdued, as is shown in the Healing Shrine (the healers didn’t expect him to do that/it's also a place of "ancient power"), and his apprentices (who are fodder and wouldn’t fight back). The ritual he would perform is also made on a mega potent DS Nexus."
Likewise, Fulminiss utilizing sorcery is at a disadvantage in speed of use.
- Book of the Sith:
- Sorzus Syn wrote:"Spells, however, require time to prepare and to recite--they are challenging to use during combat. Sith kings often remove their best sorcerers from the battlefield's scrum, positioning them atop high parpets where they rain curses upon the enemy's legions below."
I'm sure that you're aware of Doctor Isen, who is proficient in Sith Alchemy.AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"(Krayt asking Maladi for her knowledge on Sith Alchemy)"
- Doctor Isen:
Yet despite his skills in alchemy, his status as a non-warrior has led to him being of lower value and being unworthy of the title of "Darth".
- Doctor Isen:
Kira is already performing great in resisting Vitiate while fighting Angral. As such, baseline Kira as of that fight is already above Leeha and Warren Sedoru, before growing.AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Not sure why any of these quotes are relevant? The quotes still say they are the best of the Order, that would only put a growth Kira above them, and Hero above Kira."
Here is the thing. This is one of the most concrete binds that we get within SWTOR and Star Wars in general. We get told:AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"I’ve never said that quote binds Baras or Angral, just mentioned that it seems unreasonable to me that a character so high in the hierarchy to be so far below per one quote only."
A: There are two characters, Baras and Fulminiss.
B: The point of reference is X and Y.
C: As of the time in which they made their bargain, Baras was already greater than Fulminiss.
D: Both are then gifted power in their deal with Sel-Makor.
This is not a blanket supremacy quote, this is a direct comparison of two characters by a source that should be considered reliable in this instance. This very much tells me that Baras is meant to be held extremely highly, Angral benefits because of his closeness to Baras and being his rival.
Love to see another one jump on the Ben brigade. Ben and Vestara NOT having children is a LFL mandate btw.AaylaSecurafan87 wrote:"Funny thing is that Kol is possibly the son of Ben Skywalker, who is hinted to be stronger in the Force than Anakin, who was already above Luke in potential. Being the son of someone with Luke+ potential, gives the descendant a lot of potential too, especially since Ben was romantically involved with another Force user. My point is about Anakin being close to Kol at that point, your logic needs to Kol to be far above, which isn’t the case."
- Troy Denning:
- Troy Denning, Professional Killik Lover wrote:"At that point, we were talking about using the One Sith, instead of the Lost Tribe. And the editors eyes got really big and they looked at each other, and the marketing people looked at each other, and they started shaking their heads. Then Christie, Aaron, and I all chimed in and said, 'no, no, no, this is such a great idea, this has to be the way that it goes, it will be so Romeo and Juliet, you know". And once we got onto the Shakespearean avenue, they started to understand what we were trying to achieve at that point. And they said, "Well, okay, but they can't end up together at the end." That was the one rule we had, that Vestara couldnt end up with Ben at the end, they couldn't become a couple. It didn't have anything to do with good and evil or redemption or any of that, it's because I think they really didnt want to repeat the Luke and Mara story. You know, it would be too many parallels. And I was good with that. You know, I think that Vestara is a wonderful character, I came back to her in Crucible, and I think that if the EU survives with that era intact, then I'm sure that she will be somebody that keeps reappearing time and time again."
- Fate of the Jedi:
- Fate of the Jedi: The Saga Continues wrote:"The son of Luke and Mara Jade Skywalker, young Ben was born at a time of brutal war. The vicious Yuuzhan Vong destroyed entire worlds in their crusade to conquer the galaxy, and targeted the Jedi specifically as heretics that needed to be destroyed. As the son of Luke Skywalker—grandson of Anakin Skywalker—Ben was genetically predisposed to be an immensely powerful Force user. But, as a young boy, Ben shied away from his connection to the Force. He withdrew, possible retreating from the constant disturbances in the Force caused by the terrible destruction of the war.
Only one person seemed to be able to coax Ben from out of his shell—his cousin, Jacen Solo."
Likewise there are scarce details on Kol's history and early life, which leaves us unaware of if there was a similar situation for him.
I'm not the idiot that approved of Kol's stats being as low as they are. I do agree, they should be higher. I find it more likely that Kol is the grandson or great grandson. Yes, both S1 anakin and Kol have experienced some degree of war growth. 3 years is still a far cry from the ridiculousness that is 28 years. In addition, we hear very little about Kol's exploits. For all we know, he was sitting around, doing nothing, the entire war.AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"It’s evident that potential won’t indicate that the characters are on the same power level/above after a x amount of time, because if that were so, Kol Skywalker (who is the son of someone with Luke+ potential) should be well above S1 Anakin, and not put on the same challenge level as him (CL is credited as the difficulty of the fight, and Kol and Anakin share the same level). In fact, Kol fought a three-year war against the Imperial/Sith Forces, which, as you’ve shown, makes characters powerful."
- Pre-S1 Anakin's War Exploits:
- Pablo Hidalgo, Essential Readers Companion wrote:“The animated series does not adhere to this timeline, thus requiring that all published dates be taken with a grain of salt. Anakin Skywalker’s ascension from Padawan to Jedi Knight, for example, is pegged by the novel Jedi Trial (2004) as happening around thirty months after the start of the war. Yet the animated series advances Anakin to this rank at the very beginning of the conflict. This leaves few options: either the date provided in Jedi Trial is incorrect, or all television stories are compressed to the last six months of the war. As always, a storyline direct from George Lucas trumps publishing continuity, and it’s the Jedi Trial date that gets discarded. However, it’s important to note that it’s not novel’s story that is disavowed as a result.”Pablo Hidalo, Essential Readers Companion wrote:“Aboard their starfighters, Anakin and Obi-Wan Kenobi intercept the Separatist Storm Fleet. Anakin lures the Separatist fleet into a treacherous stretch of the Llon Nebula, delaying the ships from an engagement in the Cyphar system.”Pablo Hidalo, Essential Readers Companion wrote:“Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker uncover a Separatist droid factory on Dagro that specializes in experimental anti-city terror droid deployers called crawl carriers. After scuttling the facility, the Jedi destroy the last of the carriers with the help of local farmers.”Fact File #107 wrote:“Anakin made an emergency trip to Ulic Qel-Droma’s tomb on Rhen Var. There, the ancient Jedi gave the Padawan the knowledge he needed to resist the effects of the Force Harvester and to destroy the Dark Reaper.”
This does not mean that Bastila's stats are outdated. This is a stretch, and likewise doesn't influence the fact that LS Bastila's stats were being written above Kol, above K'Kruhk, above Ventress, etc.AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Bastila’s stats are outdated. The character level in Saga never surpasses 20, as those that are in that level are “the most powerful”; and WOTC never showed any hint to change this. So, had Saga extended to SWTOR, characters’ stats would be changed to accommodate the new additions, Bastila’s stats should only count to 2009"
Ventress quote is from Vehicles Collection, so see 0 reason for the other quote from there to be irrelevant. You try calling the Malgus quote "autistic" but want to argue Ventress > world eater. For Muur, a few exiles did leave Korriban and his post exile tricks are known by the Jedi. I think there are too many contradictions to buy the quote.AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"The first quote is about gameplay; the Nihilus quotes means nothing, Ventress can still be above; Karness’ spirit didn’t fight the Jedi Order as a whole (which is what the quote references); those are 2011 scans, Ventress doesn’t bind them; Nadd quote is pre-TOTJ era only; Vader quote is about training; I doubt that Revan quote has greater LFL involvement than the successor to Fact Files."
I really don't care for the Boyd quotes that you showed. Yoda comparison I'd take some thought on if he ever worked in PT era content. Palpatine being impressed by both Malgus' Force mastery and his battlefield performances are meaningful, and does mean that Malgus would scale high within the PT.AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Malgus being impressive per Sidious isn’t a bind to the PT characters, especially Ventress, who Sidious even fears her growth in power. The quote about his feats could fall into his military strategy prowess. Especially when Yoda is compared to SoR Revan in combat (although not a bind it shows that the intention for high level PT characters isn’t to be below ToC Malgus/likewise, the gap between Yoda and Ventress is not as big as the gap between Revan and ToC Malgus)."
I am sure that you are aware that Andeddu's holocron housed his spirit.
We see that Wyyrlock relied on Andeddu's own fears in order to defeat him telepathically.
Wyyrlock's goal was acquiring Andeddu's knowledge.
Darth Bane had the same goal, and was able to take the knowledge directly from Andeddu.
- Dynasty of Evil:
- Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil wrote:“With one final push of the Force, he reached out with his mind and seized what he had been searching for. With the aid of the gatekeeper the information would have taken weeks to absorb and learn. Bane, however, had gone right to the source. The knowledge stream directly from the holocron into his mind, raw and unfiltered. Thousands of images flooded his consciousness, an explosion of sights, sounds, and thoughts that cussed him to drop the holocron to the floor, breaking the connection.”
By proxy of Andeddu we get Bane >>> Andeddu < Wyyrlock.
Zannah is a Sith sorceress, who has showcased similar mental abilities to Fulminiss.
- Darth Bane: Rule of Two wrote:"Zannah shook her elbow free of Cyndra's grasp and raised her shackled hands before her face. Weaving her fingers in a complex pattern in the air, she reached out with the Force and plunged deep inside the Chiss woman's mind to find her secret, most primal fears. Buried in her subconscious were nameless horrors: abominations and creatures of nightmare never meant to see the light of day. Drawing on the power of Sith sorcery, Zannah plucked them out and brought them to life one by one."Darth Bane: Rule of Two wrote:"The illusions grew more real and more terrifying the longer the spell continued, but Zannah had no intention of ending it yet."Darth Bane: Rule of Two wrote:"The spell she had unleashed on Cyndra was powerful but exhausting. Zannah doubted she'd be able to get a similar reaction in Paak before he ran her through with his blade."
- Dynasty of Evil:
- Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil wrote:"That didn't mean he wasn't prepared, however. Dark side sorcery was complex; it attacked the psyche in ways that were difficult to explain and even more difficult to defend against. Bane had no real talent for it, yet he had done his best to study the techniques. What he learned was that the only real counter was the victim's strength of will.
Zannah's assault began as a sharp pain in his skull, like a hot knife stabbing directly into his brain before carving down to slice the two hemispheres in half. Then the knife exploded, sending a million burning shards in every direction. Each one burrowed into his subconscious, seeking out buried fears and nightmares only to rip them free and haul them from the surface. Bane let out a scream and dropped to his knees."Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil wrote:"For a second she thought she had won as Bane let out a shriek, but the burst of energy that followed sent her reeling back. Regaining her balance she saw that Bane was on his feet again, and she knew he had resisted the spell."
Likewise, Zannah hides amongst the Jedi for a short period of time.
- Darth Bane: Rule of Two wrote:“The only way the plan would work was if she could use the power of Sith sorcery to mask her strength while simultaneously projecting an aura of light-side energy. It was a complicated spell, one she had never tried before. It required a balance of strength and delicacy, and she had practiced it continuously in the weeks leading up to her departure. Yet despite her best efforts, there were still moments when her concentration slipped and her true nature showed through.”Darth Bane: Rule of Two wrote:“For five long hours she continued her research without a break. Time and time again she brought datacards back to the terminal and scoured their contents, only to find that they offered nothing new. Frustrated, she would eject the cards and compile a new list of possible sources, then return to the stacks to switch the old data cards for those promising better results. It was the rumbling in her stomach that told her it was time to take a break. If she became distracted—too tired or too hungry—her spell might falter, exposing Zannah’s true nature to those around her. It had happened once before, on the first day when she pushed herself too hard and worked long into the night. It had lasted only an instant, a momentary lapse into the night, but that could have been enough to doom her. Fortunately, at that late hour the Archives had been mostly deserted and nobody had been close enough to notice the Sith in their midst. Since then, however, Zannah had been much more careful.”Darth Bane: Rule of Two wrote:“She had found it. She had found it! Zannah leapt to her feet, pumping a clenched fist in a quiet victory celebration, barely able to contain a fierce shout of triumph. And in her moment of elation, the spell concealing her true identity slipped.”
In contrast, Angral's rival in Baras has spies within the Jedi Order.
- Sith Warrior Act 1 wrote:Warrior: "You've successfully infiltrated the Jedi Order?"
Baras: "Yes. My operatives are completely undetected, and I wish to keep it that way."SWTOR Encyclopedia wrote:"Nomen Karr escaped with his life, but from speaking with Darth Baras, he suspected a chilling truth: that Darth Baras had placed spies within the Jedi and Republic."
The spy requires Jaesa's unique talent to be exposed.
- Jaesa Wilsaam:
- SWTOR Codex:Jaesa Wilsaam wrote:“Once in a millennium, a man or woman is born who expands the frontiers of what Force users can achieve. Proud, young Jedi Padawan Jaesa Willsaam discovered the unprecedented ability to discern any being’s true nature and uncover a person’s most secret intentions."Jaesa Wilsaam wrote:"I sense rigidty and putrid calm, earnestness and logic and... wait! This one is filled with deceit, and now rage blossoms. She is the Sith spy!"
Injaye had hidden within the Jedi for long enough to be a Master and fight alongside Jedi, which would be challenging while using sorcery to mask oneself.
- \"Master" Injaye wrote:"Stupid fool. I would have led these Jedi to their deaths and struck a great victory for the Empire."Master Joce wrote:"I sense truth. I feel a shift in her. Have we been blind to it all this time?
Remember Boyd? Of course you do!
It seems to me that not only is Lord Fulminiss piggybacking off of scaling massively over Zannah, but so is is a random servant of Darth Baras, who undoubtedly is massively below him.
Angral > Fulminiss >>> RoT Z << DoE Bane >>> Andeddu < Wyyrlock
Angral ~ ToC Baras >>>> Spy >>> RoT Z << DoE Bane >>> Andeddu < Wyyrlock
That is a nice Krayt quote.
John Ostrander wrote:“Imperial Knights. Yes, in the first two issues you see every one you encounter die. But look at who they are up against. The first four are up against Darth Krayt himself. We saw Palpatine take out four Jedi masters; I submit it doesn't put the IK in a bad light to suggest that Krayt is in that class.”
Lets recall Krayt's condition afterwards.
Darth Baras has a sister, who was imprisoned during the GGW.
She believes her power to have atrophied.
She oneshots a fellow Sith.
She faces the Wrath and is confident in her brother's superiority, despite her losing.
Not the same level as Krayt, but still overall impressive. Being utterly exhausted after fighting 4 fodder vs effortlessly destroying 1 fodder with a gesture.
Rest of Legacy (minus Roan) <<< Krayt = crushing 4 enemies >> oneshot 1 enemy = Ekkhage << perception of Baras >/~ ToC Baras ~ Angral
August 2nd 2021, 3:15 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Plagsus wrote:It is factually incorrect that nobody was chosen to become the new Emperor's Wrath. Let us take a look at the Second Emperor's Wrath.
Not really what I wanted to say but, yes, the SW becomes the next Wrath, but up until that point, no one else was chosen.
Plagsus wrote:Seems clear to me that the Emperor's Hand, SWTORE, Second Wrath, etc all acknowledge members of the Dark Council being genuine threats to the Wrath in a fight. Before you claim that Scourge is simply superior, I find it unlikely...
Them being a genuine threat doesn’t indicate that Scourge isn’t above them. My point is, Scourge is likely above the upper DC, as is HoT. From Act II to III, he has some kind of growth, as he is the only one with “the power to stop the Emperor.”
"I altered my loyalties to avert a threat to myself and you. Jedi are not alone in seeing the future. Centuries ago I had a vision of the Emperor destroying the galaxy. Republic, Empire, everything gone. This Jedi has the power to stop him."
-- Lord Scourge, The Old Republic Video-Game
Plagsus wrote:So the Wrath faced a large portion of the Voice's power, controlled by Sel-Makor. Scourge on the other hand.
And Scourge assumed Vitiate was returning to full power. And it’s clear that only HoT has the power to stop Vitiate (at least, by Vanilla).
- The Emperor:
Plagsus wrote:Yet Scourge is already admitting that Fulminiss and his apprentices are a threat to an individual that is a greater combatant than him.
I don’t think Fulminiss’ apprentices would pose a single threat against HoT, he one-shots one of them btw. So Fulminiss is the true threat here.
Plagsus wrote:Shrine amps Voss, don't see any of those people as "willing".
The quote I provided very clearly states that they will help anyone that comes across them. I don’t think they would ever expect Fulminiss to use their own powers against them, which makes the feat unquantifiable, since the Voss are not prepared/resisting his direct influence.
Plagsus wrote:Likewise, I am sure that you are aware that a similar situation allowed for 6 random Sith sabers to give Luke and Jaina difficulty.
Luke isn’t going all out in this, we know the way he uses his power is in a flux, and right after some time, Luke alone is a threat to a restored Abeloth.
- Luke Skywalker:
- Luke called to mind a lake he had once visited, a narrow mountain lake nestled between a granite dome and a boulder-strewn meadow with hummocks of knee-high moss, and he started to walk. Whether the journey took a week or an instant was impossible to say. But then he was there, standing on the shore of the Lake of Apparitions, looking across its still, black waters toward the silver mists that concealed the far end.
There was no silhouette floating in the fog, no half-hidden woman beckoning him onward. Abeloth was nowhere to be seen.
Of course she wasn't. Luke was the one looking for a fight, not Abeloth. She was too busy trying to create her divine family, to transform Ben and Vestara into a twisted version of the Son and the Daughter who had once kept the Balance in the Force. The last thing Abeloth wanted now was to face Luke in a final combat that she just might lose.
But the choice wasn't hers.
-- Fate of the Jedi
Plagsus wrote:Yet despite his skills in alchemy, his status as a non-warrior has led to him being of lower value and being unworthy of the title of "Darth".
And Isen is below Maladi, not only per his own status as a Darth, but also per Maladi’s comments.
Plagsus wrote:Love to see another one jump on the Ben brigade. Ben and Vestara NOT having children is a LFL mandate btw. Funny you should mention Ben, we know for a fact that his growth and training were seriously stunted. Likewise there are scarce details on Kol's history and early life, which leaves us unaware of if there was a similar situation for him.
My bad then, but, Kol still is a “natural-born-leader”/”what folks looked for in a Skywalker”/”understood the Force in ways I [Nat] never could”, Nat is also a Skywalker, and by all means, Kol was always far stronger and gifted than Nat, if anything, the one that lacks potential is Nat. Cade is also revered by the others due to his potential, which could only come from Kol.
- Nat and Kol:
It seems to me that Kol was very gifted with the Force, as even another fellow Skywalker couldn’t begin to fathom Kol’s understanding of the Force. Now, I completely disagree with Kol not doing anything important in his early life, he achieved all ranks in the Order; and frequently accompanied an Imperial Agent in various missions and was always on Ossus, either training or being given missions. By his looks, he may be way above forty, or even more, and constantly trained in Ossus. The Jedi did go to war, and Kol was one of the main participators. Despite this… stats put them relatively close to one another.
Plagsus wrote:This does not mean that Bastila's stats are outdated.
Don’t you agree that if, new “most powerful characters” are added, some characters would inevitably be put below them for the sake of following the canon? And then the nerf hits other characters and so on.
Plagsus wrote:You try calling the Malgus quote "autistic" but want to argue Ventress > world eater. Palpatine being impressed by both Malgus' Force mastery and his battlefield performances are meaningful, and does mean that Malgus would scale high within the PT.
But above Ventress? Heck no. Sidious even fears Ventress’ skills, her growth in power and questions if Dooku and Ventress could overthrow him. Malgus isn’t above Asajj and by extension, K’Kruhk.
Plagsus wrote:We see that Wyyrlock relied on Andeddu's own fears in order to defeat him telepathically.
As did Andeddu, and he utterly failed in that regard, despite being on a field of his own advantage. Wyyrlok outperforms him greatly and even deflects with ease Andeddu’s lightning. He also absorbs Andeddu’s own knowledge, and goes from being rivaled by Krayt in knowledge, to having “unparalleled” knowledge.
- Andeddu vs Wyyrlok:
- Andeddu's Lightning:
- Andeddu's advantage:
- Wyyrlok's knowledge:
Plagsus wrote:Angral > Fulminiss >>> RoT Z << DoE Bane >>> Andeddu < Wyyrlock
I disagree with this. ROT Zannah was ragdolled by ROT Bane, and only by DoE does she show any closeness to him (which is 10 years of constant growth after RoT). As said before, Wyyrlok greatly outperforms Andeddu, and, with only “an iota of the power I [Wyyrlok] possess”, performs the same feat Fulminiss did on Force users as well. Btw, Bane fought those cultists and easily got tired of fighting them, despite being on a DS Nexus. Wyyrlok however, easily dispatches them all, and those that he fought were Force users who “imbuing ourselves with the energy of the dark side” for over a century, now compare that to Bane’s simple humans and the feat really shows Wyyrlok’s superiority.
- Zannah vs Bane:
- When it was over her Master turned to face her. She waited for him to demand an explanation, but instead he let loose with a cry and flew at her. Zannah barely had time to ignite her twin blades to meet his completely unexpected attack.
She fell into a defensive posture as she so often had during their training sessions. But this was no drill, and her Master came at her with a speed and ferocity she had never faced before. Giving in to his orbalisk-fueled bloodrage, he was like a wild animal, raining savage blows down on her from all angles, the strikes coming so fast it seemed as if he wielded a dozen blades at the same time. Zannah fell into a full retreat, desperately giving ground beneath the overwhelming assault.
"I did not betray you, Master!" she shouted, trying to make Bane see reason before he cleaved her in two. "I lured Hetton here so you could kill him!"
She ducked under a horizontal cut from his lightsaber, only to catch a heavy boot in her ribs. She rolled with the kick, narrowly avoiding the return cut of his blade. She parried a sharp descending blow, gathered her feet under her, and launched herself backward, flipping ten meters clear.
"Listen to me, Master!" she shouted now that she had put some distance between them. "If I wanted to betray you, why didn't I help them during the-oooffff!"
Bane hit her with a powerful Force throw, sending her hurtling backward. Only the barrier she had instinctively thrown up at the last second to shield herself saved her bones from being shattered by the concussive force of the impact.
She scrambled to her feet and twirled her lightsaber before her, creating what she hoped would be an impenetrable wall of defense. Instead of trying to pierce her guard, Bane leapt high in the air and came down almost right on top of her. She deftly parried his blade, redirecting it to the side as she spun away to keep his body from slamming into her. But Bane caught her on the chin with his elbow as she turned, the blow snapping her head back. Her body went limp, her weapon dropped from her nerveless fingers, and she crumpled to the ground.
For a second she saw nothing but stars. Her vision cleared to reveal the image of Darth Bane looming above her, his blade raised for the coup de grace.
-- Darth Bane: Rule of Two
- Zannah's growth:
- Over the years Bane had tracked her progress carefully, and he could no longer say with certainty which one of them would survive a confrontation between them.
-- Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil
Zannah was smart and cunning, and her powers in the dark side might be even greater than his own.
-- Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil
- Wyyrlok's power:
- The Malevolence Cultists:
- "He glanced quickly around, taking stock of his surroundings. The roof was square, thirty meters across on each side, with a small hatch built into one corner. At that moment, the hatch burst open and beings he assumed were cultists began to pour out-nearly two dozen in total, all armed with vibroblades and clubs.
Despite their numbers, Bane instantly realized they posed no real threat. Though they worshiped one of the ancient Sith, these were ordinary men and women. The Force did not flow through their veins; they were nothing but fodder. Their fury might be fueled by the dark side energies emanating from the temple, but Bane could just as easily draw upon the same power, letting it build until he unleashed it against his foes.
A decade earlier he would have eagerly engaged them in physical combat, his body pumped full of adrenaline released by the orbalisks that had covered his flesh. Swept up in a mindless rage, he would have carved a bloody swath through their numbers, hacking and slashing at his helpless enemies while relying on the impenetrable shells of the orbalisks to protect him from their blows.
But the orbalisks were gone now. He was no longer invulnerable to physical attacks, yet he was also no longer a slave to the primal bloodlust that used to overwhelm him. Free from the parasitic infestation, he was able to dispatch his enemies using the Force rather than relying solely on brute strength. Bane extinguished his weapon and stood perfectly still, allowing the swarming horde to close in on him as he gathered his strength. He called upon the power of the temple itself, feeding on it to bolster his own abilities as he created a deadly field around his body. It began as a tight circle, but quickly spread outward until it extended to a radius of ten meters, with the Sith Lord at the center. The air within the circumference of the field suddenly became darker, as if the light from the red sun above had been suddenly dimmed.
Cloaked in the shadowy gloom, Bane simply held his ground against the enemy assault. The front ranks of onrushing cultists shrieked in agony as they entered the field, their life essence violently sucked out of their bodies, aging them a thousand years in only a few seconds. Muscles and tendons atrophied instantaneously; their skin withered and shrank, pulling tight across their bones. Eyes and tongues shriveled, turning them into mummified husks before their desiccated flesh crumbled away, leaving only skeletal remains and a few strands of hair.
The effort of creating an aura of pure dark side energy would have quickly exhausted even Bane. However, as his enemies fell he was able to draw their essence into himself, feeding on their energies to revitalize his fading strength and reinforcing the field in preparation for the next wave of victims."
-- Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil
Plagsus wrote:Not the same level as Krayt, but still overall impressive. Being utterly exhausted after fighting 4 fodder vs effortlessly destroying 1 fodder with a gesture.
Rest of Legacy (minus Roan) <<< Krayt = crushing 4 enemies >> oneshot 1 enemy = Ekkhage << perception of Baras >/~ ToC Baras ~ Angral
Why should we assume that single enemy is close to one of the IKs? For all we know, the Sith could be massively below them, in any way, it’s impossible to quantify it, so the chain is in doubt and invalid.
Cade shares parity with K’Kruhk per two different stat cards.
- Galactic Files:
(Note that they have the same attack/defense count, K’Kruhk with higher dmg and Cade FP)
This is important because Cade duels a Reborn Krayt and competes very well (as well as Vong Krayt, and Cade at that point was far from prime).
Same Reborn Krayt who is far above the Vong Krayt who is a lvl 20 per SAGA, as well as Darth Revan. Meetra is cucking to MW Revan, and Scourge is cucking to Meetra. Scourge, as proven before, is with/above the DC. So:
It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else [Meetra Surik] had ever met.
-- The Old Republic: Revan
But this young one, like the other Jedi brethren, is unaware of the tremendous dark side power wielded by Revan and the terrible secrets of Malachor V. Revan's power continues to grow, and he secretly strengthens his stronghold.
-- Chronicles of the Old Republic
Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful now, but was he a match for the Emperor?
-- The Old Republic: Revan
K’Kruhk ~ Cade < Reborn Krayt >>> Vong Krayt ~ Darth Revan >>> MW Revan > Meetra > Scourge >/~ DC Member >/~ Angral
K’Kruhk’s attacks will also be very difficult for Angral to parry, let’s compare K’Kruhk’s strength to some other characters:
Now, K’Kruhk has his physical strength on par with Darth Revan, and above other heavy hitters (Krayt, Wyyrlok, Obi-Wan, Anakin, etc.) This is not only supported by SAGA, but also by GF and Minis, where K’Kruhk’s damage is exponentially higher than most characters.
(Before you go on and say that these characters have a higher attack count, the attack count is only the number that will be added to the D20 roll, which should be accounted for mastery with a saber, but the damage itself is how hard the attack hits).
K'Kruhk still wins.
- Character Count:
- Darth Rymrgand
August 9th 2021, 4:25 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Because the position was not vacant.SubTalon 87 wrote:"Not really what I wanted to say but, yes, the SW becomes the next Wrath, but up until that point, no one else was chosen."
Hmm yes a sidekick is above 99% of characters in the game. My point with the second Wrath is that a superior Wrath still must take the DC to be a genuine threat and has a "fierce duel" with a singular DC member in Baras (Angral's rival).SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"Them being a genuine threat doesn’t indicate that Scourge isn’t above them. My point is, Scourge is likely above the upper DC, as is HoT. From Act II to III, he has some kind of growth, as he is the only one with “the power to stop the Emperor.”"
Let us also recall that Baras is post prime, as he has gained a lot of weight.
- Weight gain:
- Health Problems:
- hsph.harvard.edu wrote:“Excess weight impairs respiratory function via mechanical and metabolic pathways. The accumulation of abdominal fat, for example, may limit the descent of the diaphragm, and in turn, lung expansion, while the accumulation of visceral fat can reduce the flexibility of the chest wall, sap respiratory muscle strength, and narrow airways in the lungs. (32) Cytokines generated by the low-grade inflammatory state that accompanies obesity may also impede lung function.”hsph.harvard.edu wrote:“Asthma and obstructive sleep apnea are two common respiratory diseases that have been linked with obesity. In a meta-analysis of seven prospective studies that included 333,000 subjects, obesity increased the risk of developing asthma in both men and women by 50 percent. “hsph.harvard.edu wrote:“Excess weight places mechanical and metabolic strains on bones, muscles, and joints. In the United States, an estimated 46 million adults (about one in five) report doctor-diagnosed arthritis. (1) Osteoarthritis of the knee and hip are both positively associated with obesity, and obese patients account for one-third of all joint replacement operations. (39) Obesity also increases the risk of back pain, lower limb pain, and disability due to musculoskeletal conditions.”Mayo Clinic wrote:“Obesity increases the stress placed on weight-bearing joints, in addition to promoting inflammation within the body. These factors may lead to complications such as osteoarthritis.”Mayo Clinic wrote:“Obesity makes you more likely to have high blood pressure and abnormal cholesterol levels, which are risk factors for heart disease and strokes.”
- Mayo Clinic wrote:“With age, bones tend to shrink in size and density, weakening them and making them more susceptible to fracture. You might even become a bit shorter. Muscles generally lose strength, endurance and flexibility — factors that can affect your coordination, stability and balance.”Mayo Clinic wrote:“Your brain undergoes changes as you age that may have minor effects on your memory or thinking skills. For example, healthy older adults might forget familiar names or words, or they may find it more difficult to multitask.”Mayo Clinic wrote:“With age, your skin thins and becomes less elastic and more fragile, and fatty tissue just below the skin decreases. You might notice that you bruise more easily. Decreased production of natural oils might make your skin drier. Wrinkles, age spots and small growths called skin tags are more common.”
Scourge makes his statement with the assumption that Vitiate is far below his full power and believes that all is lost should Vitiate be granted time to gather his power.SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"And Scourge assumed Vitiate was returning to full power. And it’s clear that only HoT has the power to stop Vitiate (at least, by Vanilla)."
Them helping people isn't the same as being open to being mentally destroyed. Likewise, the Bane quote that I had provided clearly shows that one can defend against such tricks even as they are occuring. To assume that they won't defend themselves is asinine.SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"The quote I provided very clearly states that they will help anyone that comes across them. I don’t think they would ever expect Fulminiss to use their own powers against them, which makes the feat unquantifiable, since the Voss are not prepared/resisting his direct influence."
Fate of the Jedi
I am not convinced that Luke is a genuine threat there, due to how badly Luke is injured when he has a large amount of assistance against Abeloth.SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"Luke isn’t going all out in this, we know the way he uses his power is in a flux, and right after some time, Luke alone is a threat to a restored Abeloth."
- Abeloth Splitting:
- Pablo Hidalgo, The Essential Readers Companion wrote:“A dark stranger emerges from the shadows, claiming to be sort of the Lost Tribe. Luke doesn’t believe this, but he does recognize the stranger as a powerful Sith. They band together to battle a common threat, engaging in combat with Abeloth in the astral plane Beyond Shadows. Together Luke and the stranger slay Abeloth. The strain of battling on so many fronts weakens her. On Coruscant, Saba Sebatyne kills an avatar of Abeloth with her powerful jaws. On Abeloth’s planet, Ben and Vestara kill them Korelei avatar.”Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse by (professional Killik expert) Troy Denning wrote:“But Saba suspected threats change was a good sign. During their strategy meeting on Coruscant, the Jedi had realized it was possible to temporarily weaken at least one of Abeloth’s avatars by killing another. Kill one, weaken the others. The theory was that Abeloth had into a single Force presence, shared by her avatars, so harming any of her avatars would make it easier to defeat all of them.”
- Fate of the Jedi Battle with Abeloth:
- Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse by Killik Expert wrote:“Abeloth only seemed to sag, and it appeared that she might tumble into the water in the eternity it was taking to reach her. But that would have been too easy. Luke and the Sith stranger had been hurling Force attacks at her for a lifetime—or perhaps it was a mere eyeblink—and this was the first time she had shown any reaction.”Fate of the Jedi Apocalypse by TD wrote:“The tattooed stranger stepped in from the left, then slid to the front and drove his stiffened fingers deep into the pit of Abeloth’s stomach. A black spray erupted from the wound, and she weighed in pain as the stranger probed for something to grab.
Abeloth loosed a Force blast, trying to drive the stranger off. He held tight. So did Luke, and all three went tumbling across the lake in a snarled mass of limbs and tentacles.”Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse by Killik Lover wrote:“Luke did not understand until an eternity later, when the stranger rolled up in his feet and jerked them all to a halt. The Sith seemed to be growing stronger as Abeloth grew weaker, and there were wisps of dark duke swirling off his shoulders and head. It did not take a Jedi Grand Master to understand that Luke was being betrayed by a Force-draining technique.
Still holding Abeloth tight, Luke shifted his hopes, rolling them both into their sides, and kicked foot through the stranger’s knee. The joint buckled, and the Sith dropped into the surface of the dark water, still on the opposite side of Abeloth from Luke....
But she was growing weaker faster than Luke....
Still, the stranger continued to drain Abeloth, and Luke realized that he was not being betrayed—the Sith was suffering as much damage from the attack as was Luke.”Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse by the man that knows that SW readers are "visually sexy" wrote:“Even knowing what the woman was, Ben could barely believe his eyes. Vestara has hit her with a bolt of Force lightning powerful enough fry air our a Canderous-class hovertank. Still, the avatar had returned to her feet the instant Vestara had been carried too far away from the Font of Power to continue drawing on its power...
The Force came pouring into Ben from all sides, irresistible and pure, a flood of light and purpose that no being in the galaxy could deny. He felt himself become the Force, a swirl of power and energy, and he focused all that he was in the approaching Keshiri, hitting her with a Force blast that would have knocked a frigate out of orbit.
the blast caught the avatar square in the chest and rocked her shoulders back at least a couple of centimeters. She paused almost noticeably before she took her next step.”
- Luke's Injuries:
- Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse wrote:“And still Luke did not sink. He was too weak to rise, and he could feel nothing of himself except the aching void Abeloth had torn in his chest. It occurred to him that he might as well be dying, and it was not a thought that brought him any fear. Even if his life had not been as long as Yoda’s, it had been a good one filled with close friends and much-loved family.... He had few regrets for anything he had done, and if the time had come to let another Jedi carry the torch, he was ready."Crucible wrote:“Her gaze dropped to Luke’s chest, where his robe covered a mysterious, slow-to-heal wound. He had received it the year before from an ancient being named Abeloth, who seemed to be a chaos-bringing agent of the Force itself. Luke had ultimately triumphed, but the fight had cost him a rib and part of a lung.”Crucible wrote:“After a few dozen steps, a golden radiance began to light the surrounding area. He looked down and discovered that his entire body had begun to glow—except where Abeloth had reached into his chest. There, Luke had a dark hole the size of his fist.”
Clearly you don't understand my point. Her status as an alchemist and creator means squat for power within the One Sith.SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"And Isen is below Maladi, not only per his own status as a Darth, but also per Maladi’s comments."
Nat being worse than Kol doesn't make Kol a god. None of the quotes that you've provided are relevant to my point. The vast majority of Kol's life, training, experience is an unknown, and likewise we hear squat about his war participation.SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"My bad then, but, Kol still is a “natural-born-leader”/”what folks looked for in a Skywalker”/”understood the Force in ways I [Nat] never could”, Nat is also a Skywalker, and by all means, Kol was always far stronger and gifted than Nat, if anything, the one that lacks potential is Nat. Cade is also revered by the others due to his potential, which could only come from Kol."
This doesn't change the fact that KOTOR as an era is being written as > Legacy as an era, and thus if we lowered KOTOR we would also lower Legacy. This is not a change that would exclusively impact KOTOR.SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"Don’t you agree that if, new “most powerful characters” are added, some characters would inevitably be put below them for the sake of following the canon? And then the nerf hits other characters and so on."
None of this is relevant to the accolades that Sidious has granted Malgus. Likewise, this isn't evidence that Ventress is > a world eater, Malak, Revan, Bastila, etc. Even LEGO respects the power of Malgus!SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"But above Ventress? Heck no. Sidious even fears Ventress’ skills, her growth in power and questions if Dooku and Ventress could overthrow him. Malgus isn’t above Asajj and by extension, K’Kruhk."
- Power Beyond Belief: Using Ultra-Powerful Sith Lords in Saga Edition wrote:“Darth Nihilus is literally a destroyer of worlds, powered by an insatiable hunger that drives him to consume greater and greater populations. While one may reasonably expect someone fallen to the dark side to employ Force lightning against a foe, no one expects a fleet of starships commanded by Sith Lords consuming entire planets. Nor would Nihilus tolerate such a rival and competitor for his sustenance. Given the Sith Lord's unique background, it is not the type of ability that would be taught to an apprentice.
From a game mechanics point of view, there is little need to spend time developing rules and restrictions for such a unique power. It is a story device. From the GM's perspective, Darth Nihilus consumes a world when the plot requires it. However, lesser aspects of his terrible hunger might be used directly against the heroes. These abilities are better emulated by the use of Force talents, powers, secrets, and techniques. In this case, the GM should describe the use of such a talent, like Drain Force, in a manner that suggests that it is powered by his unnatural hunger.”Power Beyond Belief: Using Ultra-Powerful Sith Lords in Saga Edition wrote:“Amazingly dark and devastating powers are the purview of some of the greatest Sith Lords of the Knights of the Old Republic era. They cheat death repeatedly. They devastate and consume entire worlds with a thought. They bend and twist the Force to their needs and desires as the dark side warps them into tools of its own. Average beings stand no chance of stopping these ultra-powerful monsters of the dark side. Only the greatest heroes may ultimately defeat them.”
- You knew this was coming:
Furthermore, let us re-examine a point that you brought up earlier.
- SubTalon Fan87 response 1:
- SubTalon Fan wrote:"I’ve never said that quote binds Baras or Angral, just mentioned that it seems unreasonable to me that a character so high in the hierarchy to be so far below per one quote only."
So its unreasonable for a direct comparison of two characters to bind one character over another, but it is reasonable to use a blanket quote to bind Ventress over a ton of characters who in every other source, stats, feat comparison, etc all outshine her?
This doesn't change my point. Bane managed to take Andeddu's knowledge from Andeddu with a far greater amount of ease than Wyyrlok.SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"As did Andeddu, and he utterly failed in that regard, despite being on a field of his own advantage. Wyyrlok outperforms him greatly and even deflects with ease Andeddu’s lightning. He also absorbs Andeddu’s own knowledge, and goes from being rivaled by Krayt in knowledge, to having “unparalleled” knowledge."
My scaling is explicitly in the use of sorcery. Within this area, Zannah performs far greater than she does in blades. Likewise, Bane performs far worse in this area than he does in blades. As such, comparing how they perform in blades is not the same as how they'd perform in sorcery. Likewise, part of the gap there is the orbalisks, not Bane's own power/skill.SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"I disagree with this. ROT Zannah was ragdolled by ROT Bane, and only by DoE does she show any closeness to him (which is 10 years of constant growth after RoT)."
- Zannah's Sorcery:
- Dynasty of Evil wrote:“Zannah wasn’t used to being the aggressor. In all the times she and Bane had sparred he had been the one pressing the action. Her lightsaber style was built on a foundation of parries and counterstrikes, hiding behind her virtually impenetrable defense while waiting for her opponent to make a mistake.”Dynasty of Evil wrote:“And then it came to her. She had tried to defeat him using brute force; she had fought the battle on his terms. She would never be Bane’s equal in physical strength. He would always be superior to her in martial skill. So why had she tried to defeat him in lightsaber combat, when her true talent lay elsewhere?”Dynasty of Evil wrote:“Bane didn’t fear her blades. There was only one thing she possessed that he was wary of: Sith sorcery. Zannah could do things with the Force that Bane couldn’t even attempt. She could attack the minds of her opponents, turning their own thoughts and dreams against them. During her apprenticeship, Bane had encouraged her in her studies of the magical arts. He had given her ancient texts filled with arcane rituals, urging her to expand her knowledge and push the boundaries of her talent. He had directed her training so that she could achieve her full potential. But he did not realize just how far she had come. In addition to the times her Master had provided, Zannah had sought out her own sources of hidden Sith knowledge over the years. Practicing in secret, she had progressed far beyond Bane’s expectations, learning new spells to unleash the dark side in ways he never even imagined.”
- Dynasty of Evil wrote:“Zannah had fought him once before, back when he was still encased in his orbalisk armor. She remembered it had been like battling a force of nature: the chitinous parasites covering his entire body had been impervious to lightsaber attacks, allowing him to attack with pure animal rage.”
This is in regards to a cultist, not Andeddu.SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"As said before, Wyyrlok greatly outperforms Andeddu, and, with only “an iota of the power I [Wyyrlok] possess”"
Wyyrlok muses the possibility of driving them insane. The fact he doesn't would suggests that it would take far more out of him to do, while on a nexus, and while fighting self trained plebs.SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"performs the same feat Fulminiss did on Force users as well."
Bane fought for far longer and against FAR more of them, and still viewed them as "no real threat". All that you've shown is that the method Bane chose, which Wyyrlok fails to show any comparison to, is taxing. We are even told that Orbalisk Bane would casually demolish all of Andeddu's cultists.SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"Btw, Bane fought those cultists and easily got tired of fighting them, despite being on a DS Nexus. Wyyrlok however, easily dispatches them all, and those that he fought were Force users who “imbuing ourselves with the energy of the dark side” for over a century, now compare that to Bane’s simple humans and the feat really shows Wyyrlok’s superiority."
- Bane vs Cultists:
- Dynasty of Evil wrote:“Despite their numbers, Bane instantly realized they posed no real threat. Though they worshipped one of the ancient Sith, these were ordinary men and women. The Force did not flow through their veins; they were nothing but fodder. Their fury might be fueled by the dark side energies emanating form the temple, but Bane could just as easily draw upon the same power, letting it build up until he unleashed it against his foes.”Dynasty of Evil wrote:“A decade earlier he would have eagerly engaged them in physical combat, his body pumped full of adrenaline released by the orbalisks that had covered his flesh. Swept up in a mindless rage, he would have carved a bloody swath through their numbers, hacking and slashing at his helpless enemies while relying on the impenetrable shell of the orbalisks to protect him from their blows.”Dynasty of Evil wrote:“The mass of cultists continued to charge forward. Those in the middle rank had seen the fate of their companions and tried desperately to stop. But the momentum of those behind swept them forward into the field to suffer the same agonizing death as those who had already fallen. Only those at the very rear of the crowd were able to see the danger and pull up in time to save themselves. Of the more than twenty cultists who had attacked him, only a handful were able to save themselves.”Dynasty of Evil wrote:“Bane ended their confusion by letting the field drop and drawing his lightsaber. His opponents were too slow and too few to challenge him, and their crude vibroweapons couldn’t even parry his glowing blade. Completely helpless against a superior foe, their mindless devotion to Andeddu still compelled them to attack the intruder of the sacred temple. Bane cut them down like dogs.”Dynasty of Evil wrote:“On his way back to his ship, only a few of Andeddu’s followers made any effort to do to him; those who did he brushed aside like gnats. He half expected to find a few dozen amassed on the roof against him in a last desperate stand, but except for his shuttle the roof was empty. Apparently wisdom and self-preservation had prevailed over their loyalty to Andeddu.”
Because nowhere are the IKs named, Ostrander suggests that they are average, and Lord Melicoste is a high ranked figure in a more impressive era.SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"Why should we assume that single enemy is close to one of the IKs? For all we know, the Sith could be massively below them, in any way, it’s impossible to quantify it, so the chain is in doubt and invalid."
GF is as relevant as Sith Showdown! DR > Krayt! I love that miniatures has a druggie Cade (who is still working as a bounty hunter) as a more cost-expensive character than K'Kruhk. Likewise, Talon is closer to this Cade..SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"Cade shares parity with K’Kruhk per two different stat cards."
- Sith Showdown:
- Sith Showdown wrote:"The Star Wars universe has created some truly vile dark side villains. Have you ever wondered what would happen if the most powerful Sith Lords (Darth Sidious, Darth Caedus, and Darth Revan) duked it out for supremacy of the galaxy?"
- Darth Revan > Krayt Mini:
- Aayla's Superior:
Mandalore the Ultimate is close to Krayt in mini.
- Mandalore the Ultimate:
One interesting thing to note is the Sith Triumvirate's closeness to Krayt in minis.
- Triumvirate Mini:
- Triumvirate (and Malak) Saga Edition:
Yet we know fairly well that Baras, Angral's rival, can and has made Traya his bitch.
- The Entity:
- SWTOR Codex: The Entity wrote:“Darth Baras's rise to power has been facilitated by his enslavement of a Sith spirit known only as the Entity. Baras dominated this centuries-dead Sith into using her powers of precognition and farseeing to aid his ascendancy onto the Dark Council while plotting the destruction of all enemies in his path.
The Entity chafes at her enslavement, desperately seeking freedom from this ignoble fate. Centuries ago, she nearly brought the galaxy to its knees and all but eradicated the Jedi Order; to be used as a mere political tool by Darth Baras is an insult to these past deeds.”
Angral ~ Baras >> Traya ~ Vong Krayt >> Talon ~ K'Kruhk
Issues that I see are Malak, who is held highly against DR elsewhere, and the Exile, who is likely pre-prime due to being below the triumvirate in mini.
- Darth Malak:
- Star Wars Insider 88 wrote:"Malak's most distinguishing feature, his steel jaw, disguises a vicious lightsaber wound inflicted by his former Master in their desperate final battle."SWTOR Encyclopedia wrote:"Revan then confronted Darth Malak himself in a fierce duel, but Revan prevailed and finally defeated Darth Malak."Star Wars Chronicles wrote:"It is a period of uncertainty across the galaxy. After a long and vicious battle in the deepest area of the Star Forge, Dark Lord of the Sith Darth Revan succeeds in destroying his ex-apprentice Darth Malak. After recovering from the duel, Revan seeks out the secret dark outposts... "Jedi Master Vandar Tokare wrote:"When Revan fell we had hoped the Sith threat was ended. But Malak quickly assumed Revan's role, and has embraced the dark side power as fully as his old master ever did. Now Malak leads the Sith armada against the Republic. Hate and vengeance for his master's death draw Malak ever further down the path of the dark side, fueling his powers until they surpass those of his old master."
- Exile < Sion:
- KOTOR 2 Official Prima Guide wrote:"You don't have to fight for long, however, before receiving a telepathic message from Kreia. She warns that at your current strength, Darth Sion is unbeatable; your only hope is to flee."KOTOR 2 Official Prima Guide wrote:"The Lord of Pain can restore his health at will; you have no choice but to flee him for now."Kreia: KOTOR 2: The Sith Lords wrote:"He cannot be defeated... he is not a beast of flesh and blood. This is not a battle that can be won. Flee."
- Exile surpassing the Triumvirate:
- KOTOR 2 Official Prima Guide wrote:"At last, you have defeated your most powerful enemies and can finally rest and take comfort in the fact that the Force itself is safe from Kreia and the Sith (for now)."KOTOR Campaign Guide wrote:"Traya uses vast telekinetic powers to wield a trio of lightsabers against her, but she is ultimately killed by the person she considered her greatest disciple."Darth Sion, KOTOR 2 wrote:"You are strong... I cannot see as she does, but I know, that in time, you shall surpass her power."SWTOR Codex: Galactic History #81: The Battle of Telos IV wrote:"Unable to devour the Exile as he had so many others, Nihilus was finally defeated."SWTOR Codex Galactic History #82: Darth Traya's Return wrote:"The assassin Darth Sion also returned there to face the Exile, but he was defeated, persuaded to release his unnatural hold on life."The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:"Although Traya was more powerful, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat."
Druggie Cade isn't doing this. If a druggie Cade is already being held above/equal to K'kuhk, there are problems for bootleg walrus.SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"This is important because Cade duels a Reborn Krayt and competes very well (as well as Vong Krayt, and Cade at that point was far from prime)."
- Post Sith Training:
- Aayla's Superior, for reference:
I hope you didn't forget about this.SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"Same Reborn Krayt who is far above the Vong Krayt who is a lvl 20 per SAGA, as well as Darth Revan."
- Revan Supremacy:
- Sith Showdown wrote:"The Star Wars universe has created some truly vile dark side villains. Have you ever wondered what would happen if the most powerful Sith Lords (Darth Sidious, Darth Caedus, and Darth Revan) duked it out for supremacy of the galaxy?"
Darth Revan > Vong Krayt >> K'Kruhk
Scourge is irrelevant and we've already seen prime Meetra get her ass stomped by a DC member from the Empire 300 years before its prime.SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"Meetra is cucking to MW Revan, and Scourge is cucking to Meetra. Scourge, as proven before, is with/above the DC."
- Nyriss > Meetra:
- Revan by Drew Karpyshyn wrote:"A burst of purple lightning arched down the steps, catching both men in the chest. They barely had time to scream before they were turned into charred and smoking husks...
She raised her free hand above her head and fired off another burst of lightning. Both Scourge and Meetra threw themselves clear of the deadly electrical bolt, but in doing so they gave Nyriss the early advantage.
Before they could recover, she leapt at them. Despite her withered appearance, she moved with the all the speed and ferocity of a dark side warrior in her prime. She landed right between her two adversaries, her blade flashing back and forth in a series of slashes and cuts that immediately threw her two opponents on the defensive.
Scourge barely managed to parry the first wave of her assault, unable to even think about countering with an attack of his own. Another quick thrust forced him off balance and he staggered backward.
Nyriss seized on the opportunity to focus all her efforts on breaking through Meetra’s defenses. The Jedi was clearly overmatched; though she managed to hold her ground, she was forced down to one knee.
In the awkward position her right flank was exposed, and Nyriss brought her blade in to deliver a crippling cut. At the same time, Scourge lashed out with the Force, catching Nyriss flush in the center of her chest.
An ordinary foe would have been thrown clear across the room, but Nyriss instinctively threw up a Force barrier to protect herself, absorbing and redirecting the brunt of the impact. Even so, Scourge’s attack knocked her off balance just enough to send her lightsaber wide of the mark, giving Meetra the opportunity she needed to scramble away to safety.
Scourge rushed forward, hoping to drive Nyriss back into a corner, but she met his charge with an invisible wave of rippling energy. It picked Scourge up and tossed him head-over-heels, sending him crashing to the wall.
Dazed, he looked up just in time to see another bolt of violet lightning catch Meetra in the chest. Like Nyriss, she threw up a barrier to save herself from the worst of it, but she was still knocked from her feet."
- Scourge's assessment of the Dark Council:
- Dark Council Threat Accolades:
- SWTOR Codex: Darth Ekkage wrote:"Many believe Darth Ekkage was as powerful a weapon as the Sith have ever had, and that their victory over the Republic would have been completed long ago if Ekkage had not been captured."SWTOR Codex: Darth Marr wrote:"With his humanity long forgotten and his face unseen, Marr's inner thoughts are impossible to determine. But his desire to leave a strong Empire behind him is unquestioned, and his abilities are second to none."SWTOR Codex: Darth Vengean wrote:“All Sith have their masters. The one commanding Darth Baras is the Dark Council's feared military leader, Darth Vengean--a warmonger seeking to reignite conflict with the Republic and finally exterminate the foe that drove the Sith into exile a millennium ago. Vengean was openly outraged when the Treaty of Coruscant was signed into law, criticizing all who supported the peace accord and even quietly disparaging the Emperor. That he survived such insolence is a testament to his power.”SWTOR.com wrote:"To take the station, the Empire sends a small group of its most powerful champions to the asteroid surface to storm the base, fight their way through the army of droids and defeat the crazed Jedi once and for all."SWTOR Codex: Lord Skar wrote:”Since rising up from the Korriban Academy, Lord Skar has been Darth Thanaton’s apprentice. A valiant general and unparalleled lightsaber duelist, many have marveled that Skar has never moved against his master. In truth, Skar finds the life of a scheming Sith Lord distasteful, and prefers the more visceral thrill of battle to the political machinations of a Darth. But that is not to say that Skar lacks ambition, and he has been responsible for his fair number of betrayals and dead rivals over the years.”Valkorion, Knights of the Fallen Empire wrote:"Darth Jadus: the best Sith my empire ever produced."
- Lack of "Darth":
- Darth Baras, Dark Council Member and Emperor's Voice Pretender wrote:"As lethal as you must be to become a lord, a Darth is the embodiment of death. Don't forget that."SWTOR Encyclopedia wrote:"Lord Scourge secretly allied with the Jedi Revan three centuries ago before betraying the Jedi's assassination attempt against the Emperor. For his dedication, Lord Scourge was rewarded the title of Emperor's Wrath and an eternally agonizing immortality."
This has 0 connection at all to Angral. You insult my Malgus argument and go for this? I very much doubt that this is making a win for K'kruhk if strength isn't giving Malgus the win vs Angral.SubTalon Fan87 wrote:"K’Kruhk’s attacks will also be very difficult for Angral to parry, let’s compare K’Kruhk’s strength to some other characters:"
- Height and strength:
- Deceived wrote:“He vented his rage in a continuous roar as he unleashed a furious series of blows: an overhand slash that Adraas parried; a low stab that Adraas barely sidestepped; a side kick that connected to Adraas's side, broke ribs, and flung Adraas fully across the narrow axis of the hall. He crashed into a column and the impact split it as would lightning a tree.”Deceived wrote:“She was unready for the blow. The Force-augmented impact exploded a spark shower in her brain and sent her cartwheeling away from Malgus; she slammed into a rock and landed on her side ten meters away. Adrenaline pulled her to her feet, though she swayed unsteadily. She spat a mouthful of blood and held both lightsabers at the ready.”Deceived wrote:“In the hall outside, he slammed a fist down on the secretary’s desk, putting a crack on the marble top.”
- The Adventurous JediLevel Seven
August 10th 2021, 7:52 am
Let us also recall that Baras is post prime, as he has gained a lot of weight.
August 16th 2021, 4:23 pm
Sub-Maw wrote:Let us also recall that Baras is post prime, as he has gained a lot of weight.
No. Baras goes from being a “Lord”, then a “Darth” and then a DC member. Going from a lowly position to one of the best of the Empire. There is quite a lot of growth. Angral is only ~ Baras as of ToC.
- Lord Baras:
- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Deceived wrote:Aryn wondered what had transpired in the negotiation room. For a fleeting moment, hope rose in her, hope that her fellow Jedi had perceived the Sith betrayal and arrested or killed the Sith negotiators, but that hope faded as the lead Sith negotiator, Lord Baras, emerged from the chamber and stood near Dar’nala.
“As of now,” Lord Baras continued, “Coruscant belongs to the Empire.”
“What happened here?” Lord Baras asked, his eyes on the Sith brother and sister, the ruin in the room.
A human man, his dark hair combed back over a wrinkled face, was speaking. Zeerid did not recognize him. The tag below his image named him LORD BARAS.
Malgus understood all too well. “The Jedi delegation told Lord Baras of this rogue Jedi? They sacrificed one of their own to ensure that the negotiations continued smoothly?”
“Negotiations will continue, Lord Baras.”
- Darth Baras, DC and feeding from the Entity:
- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Codex: Darth Baras wrote:“Entrusted by the Emperor and the Dark Council to oversee the negotiations leading to the Treaty of Coruscant, Darth Baras has long held sway within the highest layers of the Sith Order. His power base of secret spies and well-placed minions stretches across the galaxy, enabling him to orchestrate and manipulate events from the shadows.
He is a man of great vision, and it is even said that the Force grants him glimpses of disturbances yet to come. Methodical and calculating, Baras is a true master of the dark arts, and some say the future of the Empire.”
Sub-Maw wrote:None of this is relevant to the accolades that Sidious has granted Malgus. Likewise, this isn't evidence that Ventress is > a world eater, Malak, Revan, Bastila, etc. Even LEGO respects the power of Malgus!
The most powerful Sith up to that time is afraid of Ventress skills and even thinks she has the power to replace him, which is enough for this to be settled. Ventress has given fights to some of the best Jedi in history (Anakin, Kenobi, Mace), and K’Kruhk is put right alongside her.
- Star Wars: Clone Wars Gambit - Siege wrote:Only his brutally rigorous self-discipline, the discipline of the greatest Sith Lord ever to live, saved Sidious from revealing the depth of his fury as Yoda explained the mission to Lanteeb.Star Wars: The Clone Wars - Wild Space wrote:"Master Yoda..." He steepled his fingers. "Are you quite certain young Anakin is ready for such a task?"
"Yes," said Yoda flatly.
And that was a lie. Yoda was a master at masking his emotions, but not even he could hide them from the greatest Sith Lord ever known. He was worried...and backed into a corner.
- Ventress Fights and other wank:
- ROTS Novel wrote:"What situation? Who cares about me? I'm no Master, I'm just a kid, right? Is that what it's about? Is Master Windu turning everyone against me because until I came along, he was the youngest Jedi ever named to the Council?"Sideshow Collectibles: Asajj Ventress wrote:Deep and layered are the schemes of the Dark Lord Sidious, Sith Master and architect of the fall of the Republic. Perceiving in young Anakin Skywalker a strength as yet unseen among even the greatest of the Jedi, the Sith Lord engineers elements into his plans, rich in contingencies, that might either turn the troubled Jedi to his own purpose, or else destroy him altogether
Sub-Maw wrote:So its unreasonable for a direct comparison of two characters to bind one character over another, but it is reasonable to use a blanket quote to bind Ventress over a ton of characters who in every other source, stats, feat comparison, etc all outshine her?
For her, it is reasonable. Fulminiss however, who is put as a threat to the greatest Jedi in decades, is unreasonable to believe that he is far below ToC Shan.
Sub-Maw wrote:Them helping people isn't the same as being open to being mentally destroyed. Likewise, the Bane quote that I had provided clearly shows that one can defend against such tricks even as they are occuring. To assume that they won't defend themselves is asinine.
The fact that they were open to help anyone means that they don’t expect an attack from anyone as well, which ties into them not having any time to defend themselves. Also note that Bane recommends “Dun Moch” as a strategy to use Mind Shard, which is used to make an opponent distracted. So them being open to help anyone is enough distraction to Fulminiss do what he did.
Sub-Maw wrote:I am not convinced that Luke is a genuine threat there, due to how badly Luke is injured when he has a large amount of assistance against Abeloth.
Luke is in a specific Chosen-One mindset in this situation. He believes he can do it, just as he did when he fought Palpatine (whom he defeated). But we do know that he is clearly out of everyone’s level, or even imagination (TK Dominating Caedus, being “Beyond Power”, etc).
- Star Wars: Legacy of the Force: Inferno wrote:"Don't play stupid, "Luke snapped. "This isn't about the academy. It's about Ben."
"Ben?" Caedus stopped at the corner of his desk, feigning shock. "Did something happen to him?"
"You tell me, "Luke said. "You're the one who sent him."
"Sent him where! I've hardly spoken to Ben since the funeral."
In the next instant, Caedus found himself flying across the cabin toward his observation bubble. Luke had not gestured, had not flinched, had not even shifted his gaze; he had simply grabbed Caedus in the Force and hurled him five meters into his chair.
"Don't lie." Luke started across the cabin. "I'm getting tired of it."
Caedus sprang out of the chair... or attempted to. Instead, he found himself struggling against an invisible weight. He felt as if he were accelerating to lightspeed with a faulty inertial compensator.
"Luke, you've gone mad." Caedus reached for the controls on the arm of his chair and discovered he couldn't even do that much. "You can't do this. I know you're having trouble dealing with Mara's death, but..."
"This has nothing to do with Mara, "Luke said. "And you're lucky it doesn't. If she were here-if she had known what you were using Ben for-there'd be pieces of you scattered along the entire length of the Hydian Way."
The irony of the statement was far from lost on Caedus, but he was too astonished-and too frightened-to take any pleasure in it. While it was true that Luke had taken him by surprise, it was equally true that he had done so with no visible effort-and that he was continuing to hold him with no apparent exertion.
Keenly aware that all that stood between him and a quick death was Luke Skywalker's much-strained sense of decency, Caedus let a little of his very real fear seep into the Force, just enough to seem properly alarmed.
"Does this have something to do with Cal Omas?" he asked. "Tell me Ben didn't do anything foolish!"
Luke's eyes grew narrow and cold. "Tell me what makes you think he might have."
"Of course, "Caedus said. "Ben learned of a conversation that made it look as though Omas had something to do with Mara's death."
"That's ridiculous, "Luke said. "Chief Omas would never have done something like that."
"Never have!" Caedus echoed. "You mean Ben.... you mean Omas is dead?"
Luke looked at him without answering.
Caedus would have shaken his head, save that it was still being held motionless with the Force. Had it been Mara's death instead of Omas's that Luke had just heard about,
Caedus knew he would already be dead. Another reminder that anyone could be surprised.
"I tried to tell Ben the same thing, but he's so full of anger." He locked gazes with Luke. "I'm afraid he's going to become its servant, if one of us doesn't reach him soon."
Luke nodded, then sat on the corner of Caedus's desk. "How did Ben find out about this conversation?"
Caedus forced himself not to look away. "I wish I knew."
"You told him." When Luke's expression did not change, Caedus realized that his uncle had been expecting the lie, that he had already worked matters out for himself. "It's just so convenient for you, isn't it? You let something slip in an innocent conversation and point Ben like a missile."
"That's not what happened." The denial was strictly for form; Caedus knew Luke wouldn't believe it. "But even if it were, now is hardly the time to discuss it. We're a Squib's hair from victory. After we crush the Confederation, I'll be..." Krova's voice came over the comm speaker. "I'm sorry to interrupt, Colonel Solo, but Admiral Bwua'tu is ready for the Hapans."
Caedus felt a knot unwind inside. Finally.
"Tell Admiral Bwua'tu the Hapans will be coming shortly." Caedus had retained personal control of the Hapan Home Fleet, determined to prevent any risk to Tenel Ka or Allana by not using it until victory was certain. He waited until Krova had acknowledged the order and closed the channel, then turned to his uncle. "I've told you all I know about Omas's death, and I need to transmit that order myself. The Queen Mother insisted I take personal responsibility for committing her fleet."
Luke raised his brow. "You think you're dismissing me?"
"I know I am." Caedus put an angry edge in his voice; he might be trapped in a humiliating position right now, but he was still the leader of the Galactic Alliance-and Luke was still its servant. "If you like, we'll open an inquiry into Omas's death after we've saved the Alliance."
Luke glared at Caedus for a long moment, then finally slipped off the desk. "Is that a promise?"
"Then I'll take it for what it's worth, "Luke said. Leaving Caedus Force-pinned in his chair, he started toward the door. "I'll show myself out."
Caedus knew he would be freed as soon as Luke turned his concentration to something other than Force-pinning him-but that might take minutes, and Caedus needed to send in the Home Fleet now. Besides, he was the Chief of State of the Galactic Alliance, and he could not allow anyone, even Luke Skywalker, to humiliate him and simply leave. He had to assert some sort of authority.
"Luke, "Caedus called. "Aren't you forgetting something?"
Luke stopped at the door and looked back, the rage in his face now softening to what looked like remorse. "You're right. I should warn you that you'll have to crush the Confederation without StealthXs. The Jedi can support you no longer."
"What?" Caedus was so shocked that he tried to rise- and found himself as unable to move as before. "You can't desert now. We can end this war!"
"We could destroy the Confederation fleets and kill a lot of rebels, "Luke admitted. "But I don't think you can end this war, Jacen. I don't think you even know what it's about."
"That's absurd." Caedus did not understand how a man who had been fighting wars for forty years could be so foolish. "After their fleets are destroyed, Corellia and Both-awui will have to accept our terms, and once they've surrendered, the rest of the Confederation will have no choice but to come racing to rejoin the Alliance."
Luke shook his head and reached for the touch pad beside the door. "There's always a choice, Jacen."
"And if you go through with this one, you'll regret it." Caedus could not understand why Luke wanted to desert him just when they were on the brink of saving the Alliance, but he did know how to prevent it. "Have you forgotten the academy?"
The door opened. Instead of stepping through, Luke faced Caedus and spoke in a very calm voice. "I'm sure you're not threatening the younglings."
He pointed at the base of Jacen's meditation chair and made a tapping motion with his finger. The pedestal gave a loud whumpf, and the seat dropped a quarter meter.
"Because you really don't want to see me angry." Luke made the tapping motion again. The pedestal emitted a metallic shriek, and the seat dropped another quarter meter. "And I think you're smart enough to know that."
Luke tapped a last time, and the pedestal collapsed with a low loud crump, depositing Caedus on the floor with his feet sticking out in front of him like a child.
"But if you want to try me, go ahead and make that threat."
Luke lowered his hand, and the weight vanished from Caedus's chest. He could have leapt up to attack-had he been that foolish-but Sith were not slaves to their emotions. Avenging his humiliation could wait until after he had saved the Alliance.
Krova acknowledged the order, and a moment later Caedus felt the Jedi moving away from the Anakin Solo. Realizing it would soon be time for him to coordinate their attack with Admiral Bwua'tu, Caedus grabbed his meditation chair in the Force and discovered that he could not turn it back toward the battle. No matter how hard he exerted himself, it would not budge.
Sub-Maw wrote:Clearly you don't understand my point. Her status as an alchemist and creator means squat for power within the One Sith.
Oh, but it does when Krayt is dependent on her knowledge and abilities. She is clearly not intimidated by Nihl, who himself is a Hand.
- Nihl and Maladi:
Sub-Maw wrote:Nat being worse than Kol doesn't make Kol a god. None of the quotes that you've provided are relevant to my point. The vast majority of Kol's life, training, experience is an unknown, and likewise we hear squat about his war participation.
So you’re ignoring the quotes that say he was training on Ossus all the time? The Jedi also participated the War, and he was the leader of the Order, even Yoda went to battle in TCW. I see no reason for Kol not to do it as well.
Sub-Maw wrote:This doesn't change the fact that KOTOR as an era is being written as > Legacy as an era, and thus if we lowered KOTOR we would also lower Legacy. This is not a change that would exclusively impact KOTOR.
Legacy era Jedi are also written to be in the same line of the NJO people, who are also an upgrade from the PT era Jedi. Stats back parity with KOTOR guys.
- NJO and Legacy:
- Universe Preview 3 wrote:The Young Jedi Knight is a member of the New Republic faction, appearing for the first time in this set. Unlike the Jedi Guardian from Clone Strike and the Jedi Knight from Revenge of the Sith, the Jedi of this era have had to deal with literally decades of conflict as the New Republic fought back the last remnants of the Empire and then faced the brutal invasion of the Yuuzhan Vong. Thus, the Young Jedi Knight is in many ways a much more capable fighter than either of those two characters -- more Hit Points, a better Defense, and a much better Attack bonus. While lacking the Lightsaber Sweep of the Jedi Guardian, the Young Jedi Knight makes up for it with Knight Speed, giving the character an outstanding ability to strike quickly from a distance.
Sub-Maw wrote:My scaling is explicitly in the use of sorcery. Within this area, Zannah performs far greater than she does in blades. Likewise, Bane performs far worse in this area than he does in blades. As such, comparing how they perform in blades is not the same as how they'd perform in sorcery. Likewise, part of the gap there is the orbalisks, not Bane's own power/skill.
However, dueling ties heavily in augmentation, which is related to how much one can draw from the Force. The fact that Zannah kept up with Bane in DoE is purely by her power and how much she can draw it, which puts a 10-year-old growth gap Zannah far above her RoT self.
- Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil wrote:Lightsaber battles were brutal in their intensity; few duels lasted more than a minute. Even for a trained Jedi, the effort of all-out combat was exhausting - particularly when using the acrobatic maneuvers of Ataru. It didn't take long for Zannah to sense that her opponent was wearing down. She, on the other hand, was barely winded. At Bane's urging, she had become an expert in the defensive sequences of the Soresu form. It was simple for her to parry, redirect, or evade her opponent's blows by using Set's own momentum against him, easily keeping the Dark Jedi at bay.
Sub-Maw wrote:This is in regards to a cultist, not Andeddu.
Did you not read the full sentence?
I wrote:As said before, Wyyrlok greatly outperforms Andeddu, and, with only “an iota of the power I [Wyyrlok] possess”, performs the same feat Fulminiss did on Force users as well.
Sub-Maw wrote:Wyyrlok muses the possibility of driving them insane. The fact he doesn't would suggests that it would take far more out of him to do, while on a nexus, and while fighting self trained plebs.
Or he simply found it useless, and considering Wyyrlok’s pragmatic personality, it fits his character. Also consider that he drove them mad, and could’ve done even more, while it still being “nothing” to him.
Sub-Maw wrote:Bane fought for far longer and against FAR more of them, and still viewed them as "no real threat".
Bane is exhausted in the beginning of the fight. The usage of that ability was costly, and that was fighting random non-Force sensitive beings. Wyyrlok, with only the power he “possess”, and not the power he can draw from the Nexus, drove them mad and could’ve done even worse to them.
Sub-Maw wrote:We are even told that Orbalisk Bane would casually demolish all of Andeddu's cultists.
Because he is virtually invulnerable in a close quarters combat.
Sub-Maw wrote:Because nowhere are the IKs named, Ostrander suggests that they are average, and Lord Melicoste is a high ranked figure in a more impressive era.
Not being named =/= being weak. John compares their stand against Krayt to B-Team’s stand against Palps, which “it doesn't put the IK in a bad light to suggest that Krayt is in that class.”
Sub-Maw wrote:GF is as relevant as Sith Showdown! DR > Krayt! I love that miniatures has a druggie Cade (who is still working as a bounty hunter) as a more cost-expensive character than K'Kruhk. Likewise, Talon is closer to this Cade..
The Cade mini has his lightsaber already, and Cade never becomes a Jedi until War. Cost matters nothing, let me show you some cards to make it obvious.
- Bounty Hunter Cade (scans from Legacy 10 to War).:
- Miniatures ranking according to CL:
KFV < Obi-Wan < Darth Vader
Yoda << Mace
- Cost Level Sucks:
- Clone Strike Rule Book wrote:“When building a squad, first choose the faction the squad belongs to. Each character’s stat card gives its game statistics, including a faction symbol that shows which faction it can fight for.”
“Your squad belongs to a specific faction, which corresponds to the sides participating in the Clone Wars that rage during the Rise of the Empire era. The factions are: the Republic, the Separatists, and the Fringe.”Star Wars Miniatures: Advanced Rules wrote:”Your squad belongs to a specific faction, which corresponds to the sides participating in the battles that rage across the eras. Factions have an affinity for the light side or dark side of the Force and are described on page 7.”
“The cost is the number of points you pay to add a character to your squad. A squad can contain up to 100 points of characters.”
Mace >> Yoda is the prime example of this. The game is built around a team from a single faction, the cost level is simply adjusted for the sake of balance. The real way to compare stats is by looking at their defense and attack count.
- Attack and Defense Count Supremacy:
- Star Wars Miniatures: Advanced Rules wrote:“Defense represents how hard the character is to hit in combat. An attacker must roll this number or higher to hit the character and deal damage.
Attack is a measure of how effective the character is in combat. When the character makes an attack, roll the 20-sided dice (d20) and add this number. If the result equals or exceeds the enemy’s Defense, the attack hits.”
Sub-Maw wrote:Mandalore the Ultimate is close to Krayt in mini.
- Mandalore vs Krayt:
Sub-Maw wrote:One interesting thing to note is the Sith Triumvirate's closeness to Krayt in minis.
Are you kidding? Using fanon cards? Fanfic is acceptable to you?
- Fanon vs Official:
- Traya is not even in the game:
Champions of the Force OR characters:
KOTOR Mini set:
- The Shit Triumvirate vs the Chad One Sith Emperor (Sion sub-Talon ):
- Things Sub-Maw guy agrees to use in a formal debate:
- This is the death of Darth Angral:
A starburst of clarity blossoms within K'Kruhk's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.
It is that simple, and that complex.
And it is final.
Angral is dead already. The rest is mere detail.
The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Angral & K'Kruhk, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.
And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed K'Kruhk's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.
The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos.
Also, Traya’s CG stats put her above DR, which is false, thus making the stats incorrect. As the quotes provided above make it clear, a character’s effectiveness in battle is shown through its attack and defense count. And Krayt is above Nihilus, Sion and Kreia.
- DR vs Traya (Green means DR is better, Red is equal between the 2, and Blue means Kreia is better):
- DARTH REVAN: SLAYER OF TRAYA:
- Kreia, Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords wrote:"Revan was power. It was like staring into the heart of the Force. Even then, you could see the Jedi he would slay etched on his soul."Star Wars The Old Republic – Revan wrote:Though the Mandalorian fought valiantly, in the end he was no match for the Jedi Order's most powerful champion.Star Wars The Old Republic – Revan wrote:It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else [Meetra Surik] had ever met.Revan Reborn codex, Star Wars The Old Republic wrote:The Republic hero known as “Revan” had a turbulent past. As a Jedi general in the Mandalorian Wars, he led Republic forces to victory; as Darth Revan, corrupted by the will of the Sith Emperor, he became the Republic’s deadliest enemy.Chronicles of the Old Republic wrote:The reason for this soon becomes clear as Revan is almost devoured by primal Sith forces on the world's surface. Revan's will allows him to feed on - and not be consumed by - the power of the dark side.
VSChronicles of the Old Republic wrote:Jedi Master Kreia, Revan's old mentor, is still haunted by guilt, wondering whether it was her teaching that resulted in Revan's fall to the dark side, and begins to search for him. Sensing his last location, she travels to Malachor V, but is unable to shield her emotions, and is completely consumed by the dark side of the Force. She is lost to the Jedi, spending the next several years on Malachor V, learning its secrets, and eventually becoming The master of the Sith academy there.
Chris Avellone, lead writer of Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic 2 - The Sith Lords wrote:"If the Exile could defeat Kreia, Revan would have an easier time of it. ;) United with the Exile, Kreia and the Exile vs. Revan? My money’s still on Revan, since in my mind, Revan was a master strategist as well as an extremely powerful Force wielder."
"Revan could beat Kreia, no doubt about it - the student far surpassed the master."
"Who is the superior lightsaber combatant: Revan or the Jedi Exile?"
"So my opinion is that Revan could kick the Exile’s ass unless the Exile pulled some strange Force deafening move, but even that wouldn’t keep Revan down for long."
Sub-Maw wrote:Issues that I see are Malak, who is held highly against DR elsewhere, and the Exile, who is likely pre-prime due to being below the triumvirate in mini.
Ah yes, despite them having attack and defense counts that support the C-Canon view. I am beginning to think you don’t know how to read these cards.
Sub-Maw wrote:Darth Revan > Vong Krayt >> K'Kruhk
The quote that caps Issue 20 Krayt, he is almost dying by that time (the quote is from 2008). Krayt’s stats are from his Legacy 1 appearance, who is above Issue 20 version.
- Sith Showdown:
Sub-Maw wrote:Scourge is irrelevant and we've already seen prime Meetra get her ass stomped by a DC member from the Empire 300 years before its prime.
On a DS Nexus which is potent enough to affect Luke. Also, you didn’t provide a quote for it being in the Empire’s prime (for Force-users), is this just supposition? Again, even if the DC is a threat, Scourge has multiple quotes placing him above or with the DC, and the lack of Darth is not important due to his already high position within the Empire.
- Star Wars: Fate of the Jedi: Ascencion wrote:But Dromund Kaas was real. Darkly, frighteningly, dangerously real, and they were about to land on it.
The discussion-argument was too strong a word-he had been having with Ben was about whether Vestara should be permitted to join them on its soggy surface. The young Jedi Knight had raised a point-a good one, one Luke could find no argument with. Vestara indeed could have set the hounds on them, buying at least enough time to flee back to the Shadow and escape with it. Instead she had protected them all, possibly putting herself in danger to do so.
It wasn't a very Sith-like thing to do.
It was more of a Jedi thing to do. And she had done it spontaneously, swiftly, with no hesitation.
Luke didn't like it.
He leaned back, stretching a little in his chair. Vestara emerged from the refresher, where she'd taken a quick sanisteam. She looked around at the three pairs of eyes on her and said, "Okay, what now?"
"Noth..." Ben started to say, but Luke interrupted him.
"I was considering whether it would be wise to take you with us when we visit Dromund Kaas."
Vestara cocked her head. "Oh? I thought it was acceptable for me to accompany you. What made you change your mind?" She didn't seem offended, merely curious.
"I didn't say I had changed it. I was simply reconsidering." Luke nodded at the image of the planet. "That's an extremely dangerous place. And very, very strong with the dark side."
Vestara folded her slender arms and leaned against the bulkhead. She kept her gaze locked with Luke's as she quirked an eyebrow.
"I fail to see how it's different from Korriban, or any of the other places on Jaina and Natua's list."
"There are some interesting historical aspects to this world," Luke said. "Things that perhaps only you and I know, depending on what you've learned from Ship. Such as the fact that this world was a colony of the Sith Empire, but faded into obscurity until after the Great Hyperspace War. It was rediscovered by a Sith armada wandering for two decades. Sound familiar?"
A muscle in Vestara's jaw clenched, but she remained silent. Ben's agitation in the Force increased.
Luke continued. "They rebuilt this world. It became the capital of the next Sith Empire. Until that fell. Its next round of rediscovery came by someone who rejected the Rule of Two, who thought that there was more than enough of the dark side to go around."
"Dad..." Ben started to say.
Luke held up a hand. "He founded a religion that would become known as the Dark Force. There's an ancient temple there still. It was serviced for centuries by the Dark Prophets. It's so steeped in the dark side that it formed its own nexus-one so powerful it interferes with all weaponry and technology except for lightsabers."
"Well," drawled Vestara, "it's good that everyone here can handle one then, isn't it?"
"I think you see my point."
"That there are similarities between the origins of this culture and my own? Beings are beings, Master Skywalker. The galaxy is old, and there are only so many stories in it."
"And Sith are Sith."
"Meaning that I'll be irrevocably drawn to this dark-side nexus."
"Master Kyle Katarn succumbed to it," Luke said, and he felt Jaina and Ben's shock. "He was brought back to the light side of the Force only by his pupil. Ben's mother."
"Ironic," said Vestara, "that a Jedi Master was saved from the dark side by a woman who used to be the Emperor's Hand."
"Mara was never a Sith," Luke replied.
"So what's your solution?" Coldness emanated from her. But mixed in with the anger, which Luke had expected, was something else. Hurt. "Here are your options as I see them. One: kill me. End of problem. Two: leave either Ben or Jaina behind to watch me, reducing your group to two Jedi instead of three Jedi and me. Three: take me with you. It's your ship, your mission, and your call. But if you honestly believe I'm going to be tempted to turn on all of you by simply being on a Sith planet after all you've seen from me, you should start thinking about Option Number One. Because anything else is going to either hamper you or distract you. And frankly, I'm tired of it."
Luke was surprised. So was Jaina. Ben wasn't, and Luke felt his pride and pleasure like a sun in the Force.
For a moment, no one spoke. Finally Luke said, "The similarities between the history of Dromund Kaas and the Lost Tribe's own might make it appealing to them. They might see those commonalities as destiny. Fortunately for us, there are a very few places on this planet with solid ground, so it will narrow our search. Unfortunately, that works both ways-if the Tribe is hiding out here, we'll be fairly easy to spot. We need to watch one another closely. If Master Katarn could be swayed, then any of us could. Not just Vestara."
"Probably not you, Dad," Ben said. His voice was still sullen, but mitigated by Luke's decision.
"Probably not. I've been there and back. I like it here better. Let's go, and remember ... it's going to be soggy down there.
Vestara alone appeared to be unaffected by the stench. She smirked a little and said, "You can block it with the Force."
Ben was about to chide Vestara on her too-casual use of the Force when he realized he'd done the same thing more than once on this strange odyssey on which he and his father had embarked. His stomach heaved again, and he took her advice. Sometimes "casual usage of the Force" was more a necessity than a whim. He'd do none of them any good if he got sick.
Luke stood for a moment, his eyes and other senses searching the landscape. "Anyone sense anything?"
Ben extended himself in the Force, both opening himself to the vile sensation of the dark side and utilizing his senses-even smell, temporarily at least-to gather what information he could.
"Other than the obvious, which is a metric ton of dark-side energy, I can't sense anything," Jaina said.
Vestara, too, shook her head. "I can't feel the presence of anyone familiar here."
Luke's gaze fell on Ben. "Nope," Ben replied."
August 16th 2021, 4:27 pm
oops, forgot to add the character count. here it is:
good debate, now to the conclusions
good debate, now to the conclusions
- Darth Rymrgand
August 16th 2021, 7:04 pm
I do believe that Angral safely wins this fight.
Aayla failed to dismiss my chains regarding Fulminiss, Ekkage, Traya, Satele, etc. Fulminiss shows that pre-ToC Baras is a powerhouse. Ekkage shows a DC member admitting inferiority to a pre-ToC Baras.
The vast majority of my scaling focuses on things that are relevant to Baras’ scaling as of the ToC. SWTORE and Codex both imply that Baras was a Darth by that point, and regardless, him and Angral were ~ at that point, with Angral bossing other Darths (in Malgus) around.
It is irrelevant if Luke thinks that he is capable of fighting Abeloth on his own, if not long after he gets the shit beat out of him and is placed on the verge of death, while having a massive amount of assistance against her. Clearly his belief is proven incorrect.
Sidious fears the aid that Ventress would bring Dooku in a fight, not on her own.
I will fully admit that I made an error with miniature stats and should’ve double checked there. Regardless, there still exists the SE stat anchor that I provided, which has higher LFL vetting.
Aayla’s point with SE would just mean that we internally raise Revan, it doesn’t lower Traya or make her stats disappear.
There is still more to miniature stats than just attack and defense, there is obviously a strong correlation to cost and the writer’s perceived power of a character in the game. Aayla’s argument with miniatures should instead be that miniatures sucks as an anchor, but that would kill his K’Kruhk ~ Cade ~ Reborn Krayt argument.
Sith Showdown still binds Issue 1 Krayt. Likewise, miniatures holds Vong Krayt over K’Kruhk and Cade.
Aayla provided very little info to substantiate Kol’s war participation and degree of training, compared to a character like Satele.
Bane being “exhausted” by a power that Wyyrlok never shows or claims to be capable of doing is irrelevant. This is apples vs oranges.
Aayla ignored my feat comparison of Scourge vs Wrath II, and then to Wrath II vs Baras. And the hype comparisons of DC members such as Vengean and Ekkage.
In the end, I do not feel that Aayla successfully dismissed the majority of my claims, while bringing little scaling for K’Kruhk (and that scaling being sketchy).
Totally Character Count: 2,193,2,250
August 18th 2021, 7:39 pm
Plag wrote:Aayla failed to dismiss my chains regarding Fulminiss, Ekkage, Traya, Satele, etc. Fulminiss shows that pre-ToC Baras is a powerhouse. Ekkage shows a DC member admitting inferiority to a pre-ToC Baras.
I did respond to the TP stuff, however, you didn't. Ekkage was fairly debunked by the lack of any connections between her and the IKs.
- What I wrote:
- I wrote:Cade wipes Maladi’s memories of Ossus, not all her memories. She doesn’t show to remember what happened on the planet, other than Cade using the Force on her (which is purposeful considering Cade’s nature).
Plag wrote:The vast majority of my scaling focuses on things that are relevant to Baras’ scaling as of the ToC. SWTORE and Codex both imply that Baras was a Darth by that point, and regardless, him and Angral were ~ at that point, with Angral bossing other Darths (in Malgus) around.
Both Malgus and Angral call Baras a "Lord", and he still goes to the DC, etc.
Plag wrote:It is irrelevant if Luke thinks that he is capable of fighting Abeloth on his own, if not long after he gets the shit beat out of him and is placed on the verge of death, while having a massive amount of assistance against her. Clearly his belief is proven incorrect.
But, it's clear he isn't in the level of those Sith Sabers, in fact, he is substantially above those fodder per his own position relative to other titans (Unu, Lomi, Caedus).
Plag wrote:Sidious fears the aid that Ventress would bring Dooku in a fight, not on her own.
The quotes I provided state that is her own "skill" and Sidious wonders if she could replace him.
Plag wrote:I will fully admit that I made an error with miniature stats and should’ve double checked there. Regardless, there still exists the SE stat anchor that I provided, which has higher LFL vetting.
Aayla’s point with SE would just mean that we internally raise Revan, it doesn’t lower Traya or make her stats disappear.
However, DR wouldn't be buffed since he is already at the max level. Makes more sense to lower Traya.
Plag wrote:There is still more to miniature stats than just attack and defense, there is obviously a strong correlation to cost and the writer’s perceived power of a character in the game. Aayla’s argument with miniatures should instead be that miniatures sucks as an anchor, but that would kill his K’Kruhk ~ Cade ~ Reborn Krayt argument.
There isn't, cost is made for balance as pointed out earlier. The Atk and Def counts are more cohesive with C-Canon than Cost count.
Plag wrote:Sith Showdown still binds Issue 1 Krayt. Likewise, miniatures holds Vong Krayt over K’Kruhk and Cade.
During Legacy, sure, by War, they should be above. I also outlined why K'Kruhk grows in my first post, you didn't respond to it (K'Kruhk becomes a GM by War btw).
Plag wrote:Bane being “exhausted” by a power that Wyyrlok never shows or claims to be capable of doing is irrelevant. This is apples vs oranges.
But, in Andeddu vs Wyyrlok, you didn't even respond to. Wyyrlok kicks the shit out of Loseddu even when Loseddu has the field advantage.
Plag wrote:Aayla provided very little info to substantiate Kol’s war participation and degree of training, compared to a character like Satele.
I did, but you ignored the quotes saying he trained super hard and the whole involvement of the Jedi in the war.
Plag wrote:Aayla ignored my feat comparison of Scourge vs Wrath II, and then to Wrath II vs Baras. And the hype comparisons of DC members such as Vengean and Ekkage.
However, by Act I, I don't see those feats being relevant. Scourge should be canonically above Angral by Act I.
-- Opponent was willing to use Fanon sources to provide a link, the official source backs my point.
-- Opponent didn't attack my claims on Cade and K'Kruhk, making the link viable.
-- Opponent completely misunderstood stats and their mechanics.
-- Most of opponent's chains were put in doubt or debunked.
-- Stats still back that, the son of Ben Skywalker, couldn't surpass Anakin, who had far lesser training, even with mega training + war growth. Making it clear that having similar/greater potential =/= ever surpassing said person. Bastila is still held in the highest regards by SWTOR era, and Bastila herself says (in one of the scans I posted) that she has been fighting ever since she was small (in one of my scans).
-- Asajj was fully defended so far, and the scans weren't debunked. Her superior position is more than understandable. Opponent also didn't attack my point of K'Kruhk ~ Asajj, making it viable.
Character Count: 2,197/2250
- The Adventurous JediLevel Seven
September 4th 2021, 1:42 pm
Being serious, while my judgement post might miss some things here and there - all I did prep-wise was re-read the debate to get a feel for the general quality of the arguments presented on both sides, I didn't take notes while doing so - it'll be better than that. My thoughts are summarised on each section below:
I. Plag's Arguments
A) Fulminiss Scaling
Angral vs ToC Baras: Went unaddressed by Aayla.
ToC Baras vs Fulminiss: The direct quote was solid evidence that the former was beyond the latter, and Aayla did nothing to contest the accolade itself - instead opting for alleged contradictions. It's hard to back someone in such a scenario unless they provide exceptional proof. Ultimately, I don't think Aayla won concretely on enough of the points - or even had a strong enough opposing argument on a base level - for me to consider dismissing a flat-out comparison (e.g. Fulminiss << Act 3 Hero > Act 2 Hero ~> Scourge ~> Dark Council > Angral ~ ToC Baras can still be true and leave enough wiggle room for Baras to be above Fulminiss given none of these gaps need to be massive).
Fulminiss vs Cade: Correct me on this if I'm wrong - it's possible I missed something while reading - but two of Aayla's points on the issue went unaddressed (both the discussion on Cade's performance and it being his first time employing telepathy). All that was contested was Maladi's strength, and that's quite frankly irrelevant without discussion of other variables. So, it seems to me like this point doesn't hold.
Fulminiss and Spy vs RoT Zannah: Went unaddressed by Aayla.
Bane vs Zannah: The gap is pretty big, but it's a question of the extent it is compared to the other links in the chain. If Plag wins on these other points, I'm willing to consider the chain a viable - though not absolute - method of comparison.
Wyyrlok vs Bane: Plag established a direct method of comparison with Wyyrlok being unable to do something that Bane could do (i.e. taking Andeddu's knowledge). Given this is far more direct, and went unaddressed by Aayla (who purely contested the fight between the two) I'll take it over the apples vs oranges comparison of how they perform vs the cultists.
B) Shan Scaling
Angral vs ToC Satele: Went unaddressed by Aayla.
ToC Satele vs Bastila: I don't think this part of the debate went iron clad to either party, but overall I think Plag did enough. He sufficiently explained the differences between Kol and S1 Anakin, which results in the stats Aayla showed, and in a game of probability the idea that Satele is stronger than Bastila is more likely than the inverse. I'd be willing to ignore this section of the debate - like with the above comparison - if Aayla creates a more concrete link.
Stats: Plag caught Aayla out on the double standard of being willing to accept certain pieces of evidence when they contradict intuition, and not being willing to do so with others. He sufficiently showed the number of issues that result from using the Asajj quote, and thus I felt his initial stats stood.
C) Malgus Scaling
Angral > Malgus: Went uncontested.
Malgus' Position within the PT: Meh, I don't think this does very much for Plag's argument. Aayla did a pretty good job refuting some of the points, and ultimately the whole lacked the elaboration necessary for it to stand as a viable method of comparison.
D) Ekkage Scaling
ToC Baras vs Ekkage: Aayla sufficiently proved Baras had growth via his progression in the Sith hierarchy, or, at the very least, put enough ambiguity on it for me to not consider it a definite either way which pretty much collapses the point here.
Ekkage vs Krayt: Again, I feel this is very much similar to the Malgus argument. There wasn't enough connectivity nor elaboration for me to really buy the notion that the comparison was at all relevant.
II. Aayla's Argument
I'm getting lazy, so this section will probably be briefer than the majority of what I've written thus far. Anyway, this is really where Aayla falls short, imo. The ambiguity placed onto Plag's not so concrete arguments was solid, but ultimately meaningless given the lack of connectivity in the initial chain - the fact is that scaling over Bastila has very little to do with a fight against Angral given that they weren't even shown to be in the same league. It was only later that any sort of proper connectivity was formed, but in the end it was too little too late, and Plag's replies were good enough that I don't think that a victory there was properly cemented.
Good debate, both of you, but my vote goes to @Darth Rymrgand rather than @shame. While nothing he wrote was iron clad, it held up to a decent degree - enough that I think Aayla's lack of solid offensive very much sealed the deal.
September 12th 2021, 11:58 am
Because Aayla has quit, the wins goes to Plagueis by default. I want to say that I thought both debaters did a good job though
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