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Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
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Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Empty Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan)

July 8th 2021, 10:29 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Wpw11
DARTH ANGRAL (Darth Plagueis the Wise) -VS- K'KRUHK (AaylaSecuraFan)
Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) InShot_20210708_105247717

Character Constraints

A Opener -> 3,500K
B Opener -> 4,125K
A Response1 -> 4,725K
B Response1 -> 5,375K
A Response2 -> 6,000K
B Response2 -> 5,375K
A Response3 -> 4,750K
B Response3 -> 4,125K
A Conclusion -> 2,250K
B Conclusion -> 2,250K

(Opener B should contain counters to Opener A)
(Conclusions should not introduce wholly original arguments)
Darth Rymrgand
Darth Rymrgand

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Empty Re: Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan)

July 9th 2021, 6:20 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Vanguard of the Empire


Fulminiss

As of the comic Threat of Peace, Darth Angral is a rough combative equal, with an edge in power, of the Sith Lord Darth Baras.

SWTOR Comic: Threat of Peace:

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This is significant because (ToC) Baras scales directly over the Sith Lord Fulminiss.

SWTOR:
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Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0

This is important because Lord Fulminiss is one of the greatest sorcerers, has knowledge to make the Dark Council envious, and is viewed as a true threat to the Act III Hero of Tython by Lord Scourge himself.

SWTOR:

SWTOR Codex: Lord Fulminiss wrote:"Widely regarded as one of the greatest Sith sorcerers in the Empire, the enigmatic Lord Fulminiss is a master of the dark side's most arcane and lethal aspects. The grotesque Harrower assassins are his most famous creation, but legend has it he once summoned a raging storm of pure Force energy that disintegrated a rebellious city of natives in the Imperial-conquered Jabiim system.

Lord Fulminiss is a respected expert on the topic of mass extermination, and at the Emperor's request, he has performed extensive research into new ways of eliminating planetary populations. More than one Dark Council member has paid handsomely to obtain a record of Lord Fulminiss's work for his or her private perusal."

SWTOR Codex: Seeds of Rage wrote:“The Sith Order is constantly seeking ways to fuse dark side power with technology, creating new and terrifying weapons for inflicting terror and despair on the Empire’s enemies. One of the greatest practitioners of Sith alchemy, Lord Fulminiss, devoted his life to developing insidious new devices for corrupting other life forms. The subterranean machines code-named “Seeds of Rage” were Fulminiss’s crowning achievement. The Seeds use a combination of low-frequency transmissions and pure dark side power to subtly manipulate the thoughts and emotions of any living creature nearby. Over time, victims of these devices are driven homicidally insane and contaminated by dark side energy. The Seeds can affect intelligent species and beasts with equal success, and rumors persist that these horrific devices can even overwrite the programming logic of droids.”

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Furthermore, Lord Fulminiss shows himself to be excellent at his art feat wise, even preparing to wipe out all life on the planet of Voss.

SWTOR JK Act 3:

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This mental performance by Lord Fulminiss is significant because the few telepathic feats that we see performed in the Legacy era are performed by late Legacy Cade Skywalker and Darth Wyyrlock III.

Legacy Cade :

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Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0

Not only is Cade Skywalker only showing this feat on a singular character, he is taking more effort in doing so, and doing less total damage to said individual character's mind.

Wyyrlock:

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As such, one would reach a scaling chain such as the following. ToC Angral ~ ToC Baras > Pre-Boost Baras >> Fulminiss >>>> Cade < K'Kruhk

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Stats

Former Jedi Master Kol Skywalker is highly regarded in universe as the top of the order, along with being a fully trained Skywalker,  of the legacy era, and thus is one of the few places where K'Kruhk's standing is capped.

Skywalker Accolades:

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Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0

Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:"Skywalker, Anakin The father of Luke Skywalker and Leia Organa, he had strong Force powers that his teacher Obi-Wan Kenobi, helped him develop... He demonstrated an unusually high degree of flying and fighting talent, enhanced by his innate ability to tap into the Force."

Star Wars Encyclopedia wrote:"The son of Han Solo and Leia Organa Solo, Jacen is strong in the Force like his mother and his uncle, Luke Skywalker."

A Guide to the Star Wars Galaxy 3rd Edition wrote:“From the moment the Emperor learned of Skywalker’s existence, he knew he had to bring him into his fold. Like his father before him, Luke possessed nearly unlimited strength in the Force.”

Pablo Hidalgo, The Essential Readers Companion wrote:“They postulate that Abeloth is trying to re-create a family of godlike Force-wielders, with Luke as the father and Ben and Vestara as the children embodying the light and dark sides of the Force, respectively.”

Kol's stats are shown below, along with K'Kruhk's as of the Clone Wars (he does not possess stats within the Legacy era).

Legacy era stats:

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SWTOR never got an RPG guide, so I can't compare SWTOR's stats, I can however compare KOTOR's and attempt to scale from there. As one can see, Atris, The Jedi Exile, and Lucien Draay are all held within the same ballpark as Kol Skywalker within the s-canon realm. In fact, Bastila Shan is favored over all of them.

KOTOR Stats:

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Obviously the writers for the Legacy era Campaign Guide aren't afraid of giving characters from this era high CL and stats.

Legacy Krayt and Roan Fel:

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Shan Bloodline

Bastila Shan is a extremely powerful Jedi, with great gift and skill to bear.

Bastila:

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SWTOR Encyclopedia wrote:"A Jedi strike team assembled to capture Revan--and redeem him, if possible. Under the command of the powerful Jedi Bastila Shan, the strike team attacked Revan's flagship, boarded his vessel, and confronted the mighty Sith."

SWTOR Encyclopedia wrote:"Bastila's unique power of battle meditation soon drew Darth Malak's attention. By reaching out with the Force, Bastila could unite entire armies, boosting their morale and coordinating their attack. Darth Malak desired such power. And if Bastila refused to join him, Malak would simply destroy her."

KOTOR Campaign Guide wrote:"Maybe the most heroic Jedi of her time, Bastila Shan was a Jedi exemplar. The dark side, however, erodes even the purest lights."

KOTOR Campaign Guide wrote:"Her ability to affect minds blossoms with astounding speed and scope, and she becomes one of the youngest Jedi ever to master battle meditation. This sweeping Force power, which infuses allies with hope while simultaneously strangling enemy morale, has in the past reversed whole wars, and as the Jedi Civil War engulfs the galaxy, Bastila hopes to turn the tide toward the Jedi favor."

KOTOR Campaign Guide wrote:" and Bastila uses the Force to keep Revan alive, establishing a telepathic bond between them. Upon returning to the Jedi Council with her Sith prize, she helps concoct an audacious plan. After using the Force to temporarily wipe Revan's memories, Bastila coaxes him into revealing priceless intelligence about the Sith enemy. The scheme is controversial at best. Mind-wiping is considered an immoral Force application, and there is no telling how Bastila's Force bond would affect her.

KOTOR Campaign Guide wrote:"Amid this emotional turmoil, she is captured by Darth Malak, who twists her into his apprentice."

Many of her descendants are believed to have inherited her (and Revan's) Force power. This includes the Jedi Grandmaster Satele Shan.

Satele:

SWTOR Encyclopedia wrote:"Master Satele is heir to a line of powerful Jedi. She claims to be a descendant of the once-fallen hero Revan, and Bastila Shan, whose battle meditation skills were peerless. Though there is immense power in the Shan bloodline, there is also a streak of unorthodoxy."

SWTOR Encyclopedia wrote:"As an adolescent, Satele trained with Battlemaster Kao Cen Darach. It was he who taught Satele to fight with a double-bladed lightsaber and guided her through the final trials to become a full-fledged Jedi Knight."

SWTOR Codex: Satele Shan wrote:Grand Master of the Jedi Order and leader of the Jedi Council, Satele Shan was born on the Core World of Brentaal Four and is descended from legendary Jedi Bastila Shan.”

SWTOR Codex: Satele Shan wrote:“In person, Satele’s strength in the Force is matched with a keen intelligence and a subtle sense of humor. “

Alongside all of this, Satele is a veteran of a 28 year long spanning war.

Great Galactic War:

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Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0

SWTOR Codex: Satele Shan wrote:“Satele has played a key role in recent galactic history in other ways, as well. She fought on the front lines of several major battles–including the battles of Alderaan and Rhen Var–and was present as a Padawan during the Imperial retaking of Korriban, the first modern contact between the Sith Empire and the Republic. She is greatly respected by certain members of the Republic military, and her advice is often sought by the Supreme Chancellor.

It is not unreasonable to presume that by the end of the war, that Jedi Knight Satele Shan is greatly more masterful and experienced than her ancestor in Bastila, while also inheriting her ancestor's Force strength. Thus, one can can predict a great deal of superiority of Satele Shan over her ancestor in Bastila Shan.

As I showed previously, the writer of Threat of Peace holds both Angral and Baras over Satele as of the ToC. In addition, Satele admits inferiority to the Hero of Tython after he defeats Angral (with help).

Angral Superiority:

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Satele Shan, JK Act 1 wrote:"We've lost one of our noblest Masters, but in his place stands a Jedi without equal."

Satele Shan, JK Act 1 wrote:"But he also forged our greatest weapon against the darkness."


Thus it is fairly reasonable to suggest a scaling chain such as Angral > ToC Satele >> Bastila Shan > Kol Skywalker >~ K'Kruhk


TLDR

Darth Angral is superior to Lord Fulminiss and ToC Satele Shan.
Lord Fulminiss displays far superior telepathic feats than either Cade Skywalker or Darth Wyyrlock III.
ToC Satele should be far superior to her ancestor Bastila Shan.
Bastila Shan is heavily supported to being > Kol Skywalker in S-canon stats.
Kol's status as a Skywalker and as the senior Jedi Council member supports the concept of Kol > K'Kruhk.

Total Character Count: 3260/3500
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AaylaSecuraFan87
AaylaSecuraFan87

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Empty Re: Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan)

July 12th 2021, 5:29 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

The Hero of Tython


Regarding your point of Lord Fulminiss, I completely disagree with the idea that someone who can challenge Act III HoT to be below Darth Angral, especially since that would necessitate that Act I HoT to be above his Act III self, despite him being far more powerful, experienced, and knowledgeable in the Force.

Act I HoT defeated Darth Angral, and right after had to defeat Kira while she was possessed by the Emperor. Kira’s help against Angral would be minimal, since the Hero was already the strongest Jedi Orgus/Morr had ever seen, and only grew after said statement.

The Old Republic, Orgus Din wrote:“The Force is strong in you. Stronger than I've seen in decades.”

The Old Republic, Bengel Morr wrote:“You are stronger than any Jedi I have known.”



Act II HoT then is selected as one of the Jedi to go after the Emperor, each Jedi of this strike team are the most powerful of the Order.


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The Old Republic Encyclopedia wrote:With Grand Master Satele Shan's support, Master Braga assembles a strike team of the strongest and most resolute Jedi in the order. Their goal is to pinpoint the Emperor's hidden fortress, capture the Sith leader alive, and turn him to the light side.

Act II HoT then stalemates Lord Scourge in a duel, Scourge who was the Emperor’s personal executioner (who should be well above Angral).

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Lord Scourge Codex Entry wrote:As the Sith Emperor’s personal executioner, the grimly fatalistic Lord Scourge has personally killed more than a hundred Jedi–and ten times as many Sith. Even the most powerful members of the Dark Council avoid offending the man bearing the title “the Emperor’s Wrath.

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The Old Republic wrote:You fought Lord Scourge to a standstill until he broke off the battle for some reason. See what he has to say in the throne room of the Emperor's fortress.

Act II HoT fails to stop the Emperor, becomes a Sith Lord and trains for months in the dark side.

The Old Republic wrote:The spirit of Master Orgus explained that during your confrontation with the Emperor, your mind was dominated, and you were temporarily turned to the dark side by his power. You’ve recovered your senses, but the Sith still believe you to be a slave to the Emperor’s will. Overseer Chaskar arrived to continue your training in the ways of the Sith.

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Act II HoT then breaks from the Emperor’s TP, flees with Scourge and battles and defeats one of the Jedi who accompanied him and fell to the dark side (who naturally became more powerful). Then, despite all these showings and growth, Scourge believes that Lord Fulminiss is a threat to an Act III Hero, who is exponentially above Act I Hero.

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It is unreasonable to believe that Lord Fulminiss, the greatest Sorcerer of the Empire, is below Darth Baras Pre-ToC. He not only has a supremacy quote over every sorcerer in the Empire, but also is a threat to a far more powerful Hero (who himself is the most powerful Jedi in decades).

The Old Republic, Darth Acina wrote:"They are the only surviving work of the Empire's greatest alchemist, Lord Fulminiss. A Jedi Knight on Voss deprived us of his genius."

Bastila Shan


Now, I want to bring an example to compare to your own usage of Bastila, that is Kol Skywalker. Despite him training for far more time than Anakin Skywalker, and despite being a part of the same family that had some of the greatest potentials ever, he still was only on par with S1 Anakin per stats.

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Per your logic, Kol should be above Anakin, and although you can argue that Anakin is more gifted than Kol, it doesn’t take away the fact that Kol is a Skywalker too and trained for forty or more years under the Jedi. While Anakin only trained for about 10 years or so up to Season 1. Bastila had already mastered fighting styles and one of the most difficult Force techniques by her Padawan years, and only grew with time after becoming a Jedi Knight, she isn’t less masterful than Satele, as she had already showed a natural affinity with the Force and mastered several techniques by that point.

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Knights of the Old Republic Prima Guide wrote:Bastila Shan is the quintessential Jedi: trained from a very young age and gifted with a natural ability with the Force that has given her both renown and considerable pride.

Knights of the Old Republic, Carth Onasi wrote:"But Bastila's young, and she has a powerful command of the Force."

So Bastila isn’t far below Satele Shan. There is no definitive proof that binds Bastila below Satele. However, this ties to K’Kruhk.

The Grand Master


Asajj Ventress, of all enemies ever faced by the Jedi, was second only to Dooku. That caps DS Bastila, who was way more powerful than her LS self (TK throwing Jolee, Juhani and Revan on Rakata Prime).

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Asajj Ventress > DS Bastila >> LS Bastila

K’Kruhk stats during the Clone Wars put him a little above Asajj Ventress stats, that is mid-war K’Kruhk per the CG. K’Kruhk, as a Jedi General, goes on to fight other campaigns.

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Therefore:

ROTS K’Kruhk > Mid-War K’Kruhk > ~ Asajj Ventress > DS Bastila >> LS Bastila

K’Kruhk then goes on to train several Jedi during his time in the NJO, a NJO who also had access to knowledge that was buried in Ossus for thousands of years. Master Yoda notes that training younglings and other Padawans was a way to a Jedi improve himself too. So:

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NJO K’Kruhk >> ROTS K’Kruhk > Mid-War K’Kruhk > ~ Asajj Ventress > DS Bastila >> LS Bastila

Then K’Kruhk is selected as the Grand Master of the Order, which is a title bestowed upon the greatest of all masters.

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Grand Master K’Kruhk >> NJO K’Kruhk >> ROTS K’Kruhk > Mid-War K’Kruhk >~ Asajj Ventress > DS Bastila >> LS Bastila

It is unclear whether Satele surpasses Bastila or not, as the former is seen as a legendary figure by SWTOR’s time, but Bastila is certainly capped by the HoT, who defeated Angral in combat.

Grand Master K’Kruhk >> NJO K’Kruhk >> ROTS K’Kruhk > Mid-War K’Kruhk >~ Asajj Ventress > DS Bastila >> LS Bastila < HoT > Darth Angral
Darth Rymrgand
Darth Rymrgand

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Empty Re: Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan)

July 12th 2021, 10:04 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Rebuttal

@AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Regarding your point of Lord Fulminiss, I completely disagree with the idea that someone who can challenge Act III HoT to be below Darth Angral, especially since that would necessitate that Act I HoT to be above his Act III self, despite him being far more powerful, experienced, and knowledgeable in the Force."
All that this means is that there is context behind why Fulminiss is a threat. Likewise, you must provide some measure of evidence to support a large gap between Act 1 and Act 3 Hero.

Hero:

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SWTOR Codex: The Nightmare Lands wrote:Said by Voss and outsiders alike to cause insanity in those foolish enough to venture there, the Nightmare Lands are a dangerous region far from Voss-Ka, overgrown with twisted forests. The weather there is unpredictable, and strange sounds and lights have been reported by distant observers. No one knows what caused the corruption of these lands, but many Jedi and Sith claim to sense a powerful dark presence within. Despite the dangers–and numerous warnings from the Voss–some outsiders still brave the Nightmare Lands to loot the ruins or investigate secrets. A few daring Mystics have also made pilgrimages there in an attempt to heal whatever plagues the land. Most of these explorers are simply never seen again; the rest are left to wander the forests, broken and mad. The Nightmare Lands are a blight on Voss; unfortunately, they are a blight nobody seems able to cure.”

@AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Act I HoT defeated Darth Angral, and right after had to defeat Kira while she was possessed by the Emperor. Kira’s help against Angral would be minimal, since the Hero was already the strongest Jedi Orgus/Morr had ever seen, and only grew after said statement."
Fighting a possessed Kira doesn't mean that she was not needed. Hero being the "strongest" Jedi isn't relevant to whether Kira actually provides much needed help against Angral. This is one of the very few times in SWTOR where a companion's aid in battle is recognized, not just one but thrice. Kira's own dialogue does not sound like one whose aid was irrelevant.

Kira Aid:

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@AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Act II HoT then is selected as one of the Jedi to go after the Emperor, each Jedi of this strike team are the most powerful of the Order."
Cool, half of the team is shown to be pathetic and Kira has scaling in resisting the Emperor's control far better than any of the strike team does.

Strike Team:

SWTOR Codex: Warren Sedoru wrote:“The price of these triumphs was high, however. Records indicate Warren was critically injured over a dozen times in battles from Alderaan to Yavin Four. Although he survived these near-deaths without need of cybernetic replacement parts, Warren’s connection to the Force began to diminish. When the Republic signed the Treaty of Coruscant, Warren dedicated himself wholeheartedly to peace. He gave up his rank as Jedi Knight and became a Padawan to Master Tol Braga. “

SWTOR Codex: Leeha Narezz wrote:“Among her peers, Jedi Leeha Narezz is considered something of an eccentric. She frequently eschews time with fellow Jedi to meditate with and instruct a trio of droids she built called the “Meedees.” Leeha believes that the Force is not accessible only to living creatures–indeed, she asserts that even droids can use it if they go long enough without a memory-wipe. Despite her unusual beliefs, no one in the order disputes that Leeha is one of the finest technologists in the Republic. Repeated attempts by the military to direct her talents toward engines of war have failed, however. She remains firmly committed to peaceful applications of technology that warm the homeless, feed the hungry and protect the weak. “

SWTOR Codex: The Fall of Tol Braga wrote:Unlike Warren Sedoru and Leeha Narezz, Master Braga did not require the Emperor's oppressive domination to remain obedient. He knowingly surrendered to the power of the dark side, believing it was his punishment for allowing pride to blind him to the Sith's true nature.”

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@AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Act II HoT then stalemates Lord Scourge in a duel, Scourge who was the Emperor’s personal executioner (who should be well above Angral)"
Over a massively powerful dark side nexus. Scourge would perform worse elsewhere. None of this disproves that Angral would still be a valid threat to the HoT.

Nexus:

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SWTOR Codex: The Emperor's Space Station wrote:“The Emperor’s space station is as much temple as fortress. Built by the Empire’s finest engineers–many of whom never left their creation–the station is a blend of modern and incredibly ancient technology. The cloaking device which keeps the station invisible uses Gree technology, while the station’s power core and security features are Rakata in design. The station is vast, comprising an unknown number of decks and chambers. Dozens of rooms store artifacts the Emperor gathered over the centuries, while prisoners whose identities are long forgotten float in stasis chambers. Traditionally, the privileged few who had audiences on the station were brought there by the Emperor’s servants, with no memories of the journey. In the hands of Darth Malgus, the space station has become a new and terrible weapon–but one with many secrets yet to be unlocked. Malgus and his servants have much to learn about their headquarters and its full capabilities.”

Essential Guide to Warfare wrote:"They were known as the Rakata, or the Builders, a species of bipeds with amphibian features whose technologies were powered by the Force."

@AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Act II HoT fails to stop the Emperor, becomes a Sith Lord and trains for months in the dark side."
Have you played the Rishi mission? This training is a mental scar and provides 0 benefit to the HoT as of Act 3.

Trauma:

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@AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Then, despite all these showings and growth, Scourge believes that Lord Fulminiss is a threat to an Act III Hero, who is exponentially above Act I Hero."
The only reasoning that you've provided any reasoning for is dark side training, which is irrelevant. I can buy act 1 Hero < act 3 Hero, but see no reason to see an exponential gap.

@AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"It is unreasonable to believe that Lord Fulminiss, the greatest Sorcerer of the Empire, is below Darth Baras Pre-ToC. He not only has a supremacy quote over every sorcerer in the Empire, but also is a threat to a far more powerful Hero (who himself is the most powerful Jedi in decades)."
Neither Baras nor Angral are sorcerers, nor are they alchemists. Nothing that you've cited goes against Sel-Makor calling Baras a "greater Sith" than Fulminiss.

@AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Despite him training for far more time than Anakin Skywalker, and despite being a part of the same family that had some of the greatest potentials ever, he still was only on par with S1 Anakin per stats."
Kol's stats are higher than S1 Anakin's in key areas such as Force (7 vs 6), Use The force, 2 extra Jedi ranks (2 Jedi Master vs 2 pilot), etc. This should suggest that Kol is a greater Force user than S1 Anakin. In contrast to the Shan bloodline, we know that while all Skywalkers are strong in the Force, there are still big gaps in potential. In fact, Satele is a descendant of two legendary Force users, and thus also inherits some of Revan's power.

@AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Bastila had already mastered fighting styles and one of the most difficult Force techniques by her Padawan years, and only grew with time after becoming a Jedi Knight, she isn’t less masterful than Satele, as she had already showed a natural affinity with the Force and mastered several techniques by that point."

You have provided 0 evidence for this. Need I remind you of the concept of wargrowth? Unlike Kol vs Anakin, there isn't evidence to suggest that Satele is a lesser prodigy than Bastila.

War Growth:

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I, Jedi by Michael Stackpole wrote:“The Jedi Master looked at me and I felt electricity run through his blue-eyed gaze. When we had met before I had felt power in him, but now, after his experiences with the Emperor Reborn, his power had been redoubled. Physically he looked a bit haggard and worn, with the flesh around his eyes having tightened and wrinkles appearing at their corners. I knew we were the same age chronologically, but in experience he far surpassed me.”

Revenge of the Sith Adult Novelization by Matthew Stover wrote:Skywalker, by contrast, looked every bit the HoloNet hero he was supposed to be. He seemed to tower over his companions; as though he had somehow gotten even taller in the months since Mace had seen him last. His hair was tousled, his color was high, and his walk still had the grounded grace of a natural fighter, but there was something new in his physicality: in the way he moved his head, perhaps, of the way the weight of Palpatine’s arm on his shoulders seemed to belong there . . . or something less definable. Some new ease, new confidence. An aura of under power. Presence. Skywalker was not the same young man the Council had sent off to the Outer Rim five standard months ago.”

Star War Databanks: Luke Skywalker wrote:With each passing year, Luke grew more powerful in the Force, and his exploits in the Alliance gained a higher profile.”

Darth Malgus, Book of the Sith wrote:“The essential quality of the Force is conflict. Through conflict, the strong kill the weak and bring the living closer to perfection. The Sith Empire has served the Force by inciting conflict. But for true improvement to take place, I must at least give my soldiers a fighting chance against the enemies who seek to destroy them.”

Darth Malgus, Book of the Sith wrote:“Despite his allegiance to Jedi blasphemy, he at least appears to grasp the truth of improvement through combat.”

Deceived wrote:"The Sith and Jedi forces closed, Sith battle lust facing the calm of the Jedi, the floor of the Temple the arena where centuries of indeterminate strife would at last reach a conclusion. Those strong in the Force would survive and their understanding of the Force would evolve. Those weak in the Force would die."

@AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"So Bastila isn’t far below Satele Shan. There is no definitive proof that binds Bastila below Satele."
You haven't any sufficient evidence to dismiss the claim. If there are two beings with equal, or similar, potential and one has more than double the time to grow, on top of spending far more time in conflict, it is reasonable to presume that the one with more time and conflict will have developed their abilities far beyond the other.

@AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Asajj Ventress, of all enemies ever faced by the Jedi, was second only to Dooku. That caps DS Bastila, who was way more powerful than her LS self"
Within the S-canon realm, Bastila's stats are well above both K'kruhk and Asajj Ventress. In addition, it is clear that there are several characters that are not meant to be bound below Ventress, and some even by Dooku. Suffice to say, this singular quote is an outlier and is the dissenting opinion.

Disagreements:

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Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords (Freedon Nadd's Blaster Pistol) wrote:“A vile weapon that once belonged to Freedon Nadd, this blaster has killed more Jedi then any lightsaber.”

Official Starships and Vehicles Collection #63 wrote:"In that particular instance, Bane and Sidious were foiled, but Sidious' basic aims remained. He sought to create a network of Force-wielding agents loyal only to him. None would be trained sufficiently to be a threat to Darth Bane's insistence that there only be two Sith, nor would they be a threat to Darth Sidious or his apprentice, Darth Vader. The most powerful of these agents were "only" Sith adepts but would appear almost as dark Jedi - the likes of Asajj Ventress, Mara Jade, or Inquisitor Valin Draco (in fact, a fallen Jedi). The lesser agents were reduced to still-deadly faceless minions. Among their ranks were the Shadow Guard."

Wizards of the Coast wrote:"The Star Wars universe has created some truly vile dark side villains. Have you ever wondered what would happen if the most powerful Sith Lords (Darth Sidious, Darth Caedus, and Darth Revan) duked it out for supremacy of the galaxy?"

@AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Then K’Kruhk is selected as the Grand Master of the Order, which is a title bestowed upon the greatest of all masters."
Satele was also a Grand Master of the Order. K'Kruhk was only granted this title after the death of Kol.


@AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"It is unclear whether Satele surpasses Bastila or not, as the former is seen as a legendary figure by SWTOR’s time"
This is very much cap.

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Sacking of Coruscant

As of the Sacking of Coruscant, Angral is a clear superior of the Sith Lord Darth Malgus.

Malgus Wojak:

Deceived wrote:"'I’m pleased to hear it. Now sit , Malgus.' Angral’s tone left no doubt that the words were not a suggestion.
Malgus picked his way through the artwork."

Deceived wrote:"Angral waved a hand dismissively. “No apologies are necessary. I solicited his report directly.”
Malgus did not know what to make of that and did not like that he did not know. “Directly? Why?”
“Do you believe that I owe you an explanation, Darth Malgus?”
Malgus had misstepped again. “No, my lord.”

Deceived wrote:"Adraas placed his wine chalice on Angral’s desk. “An excellent vintage, Darth Angral. But right at the end of its cellar life.”
“I think so, too,” Angral said.
“Let things linger around overlong and they can turn rancid.”
“Agreed,” Angral said.
Malgus missed nothing, but could say nothing.
Adraas snapped his fingers as if he had just remembered something. “Oh! Darth Malgus, I do regret that I had to refuse your woman treatment aboard Steadfast. ”

Deceived wrote:"Angral drew himself up to his full height. “You will, both of you, follow my commands without question or hesitation. I will deal harshly with any deviation from that order. Do you understand?”
Angral had directed the rebuke at both of them, but Malgus understood it to be intended for him.
“Yes, Darth Angral,” they said in unison.
“You are servants of the Empire.”
Malgus, stewing, said nothing.
“Both of you leave me, now,” Angral said.
Still seething, Malgus walked for the door. Adraas fell in a stride behind him."

Deceived wrote:"He did not need to be skilled in political maneuvering to understand that Angral ordering him into an unimportant role was a way of sending the clear message that he was out of favor. Angral had used him just long enough to ensure the success of the sacking of Coruscant, and now he was being edged aside in favor of Lord Adraas. In the span of a day he had gone from the conqueror of Coruscant to a second-tier Darth."

Deceived wrote:"Malgus chuckled, the sound loud off the high ceiling. “You have foreseen it but you cannot stop it. You are a child, Adraas. And tonight you pay. Angral is not here to protect you. No one is.'”

The Sith Lord Darth Sidious has access to a fragment of Darth Malgus' journal from prior to the Sacking of Coruscant.

Book of the Sith:

Darth Sidious, Book of the Sith wrote:“The excerpts from the journal of Darth Malgus kept during the Great Galactic War some thirty-six centuries ago are a prime example of how a wounded warrior can be sustained by rage. The war was unbounded success for the era’s Sith Emperor, and Malgus was one of his best soldiers. I obtained this text many decades ago from a dealer in antiquities, and have recently passed it to Darth Vader, so he might gain inspiration.

Luke Skywalker, Book of the Sith wrote:“From statements made in the journal, Malgus seems to have been writing toward the tail end of the Great Galactic War, probably only a year or two before the Sacking of Coruscant in 3,653 B.B.Y. My father’s comments must have been recorded shortly after his transformation into the Emperor’s servant.”

The knowledge that Sidious gained from Malgus' journal was key to discovering the power of Force Storms.

Book of Anger:

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Darth Sidious, Book of Anger wrote:
“Through the principles of anger, I will structure and maintain my Empire. 0]]The writings of Darth Malgus confirm that anger, conbined with will, is the key to power.[/u] When anger intensified to rage, it is unstoppable. Malgus submitted utterly to the dark side, and doing so made him an exemplary warrior. His battlefield feats have never been duplicated.

Darth Sidious, Book of Anger wrote:Already, I have perfected the Force maelstrom, which creates an invulnerable energy sphere to block incoming attacks while bombarding enemies with debris and electrifying them with bolts of lightning. This technique can be increased into a Force Storm. The churning energy mass of a Force Storm can consume everything it touched, did at its eye is pure hate.”

So Darth Malgus, a confirmed inferior of the Sith Lord Darth Angral, was not only the key to Palpatine's "ultimate power" but he also greatly impressed Palpatine in terms of both knowledge and power. This in itself should support the notion of Angral > Malgus > Asajj, if not have Malgus over even more PT era combatants.

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TLDR

Opponent argues vast growth between acts 1 and 3 for HoT, provides no reasoning other than dark side training.
Ignores that HoT had PTSD from time under Emperor's domination and thus hid memories of time under his control.
Opponent gave 0 contention for Fulminiss vs Legacy comparison.
Opponent argues that sorcerer and alchemist quotes bind non-sorcerers and non-alchemists.
Nothing contradicts Sel-Makor's claim of Baras being "greater than Fulminiss".
Kol's stats are stronger in the Force and highlight greater training and experience than TCW S1 Anakin.
Opponent argues Bastila ~ Satele.
I argue that nearly 30 years of more experience and time to further develop her talents would give Satele a large edge over her legendary ancestor.
1 quote for Asajj > all previous threats to Jedi
Contradicted by countless sources.
Angral > Malgus.
Book of the Sith hypes Malgus immensely.

Character Limit: 4259/4721

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AaylaSecuraFan87
AaylaSecuraFan87

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Empty Re: Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan)

July 17th 2021, 11:05 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)

Scourge


Plag wrote:All that this means is that there is context behind why Fulminiss is a threat. Likewise, you must provide some measure of evidence to support a large gap between Act 1 and Act 3 Hero.

I will first look at Scourge to explain the gap. He is pretty much above every other Sith in the Empire, where even the most powerful of the Dark Council fear him, he was specifically tasked to execute the most powerful Sith/Jedi that rose in the galaxy, and after Scourge fled, the most powerful Sith Lords of the Empire were considered to become the Wrath, yet no one was chosen.

Quotes wrote:"He's sending his personal executioner for me. His wrath incarnate. I'll be punished for my crimes."
"Who is the Emperor's Wrath? A Sith Lord?"
"A ghost. Older than anyone except the Emperor himself. Even the Dark Council fears him."

-- Sajar and the Hero of Tython, The Old Republic

"Even the most powerful members of the Dark Council avoid offending the man bearing the title, “the Emperor’s Wrath.”

-- Lord Scourge Codex Entry, The Old Republic

"After Lord Scourge shed the mantle of the Wrath under mysterious circumstances, the Emperor's Hand set out to find a replacement. Millions of the galaxy's most powerful Sith were considered, but ultimately only one would prove worthy to serve the Emperor."

-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia

"As the Sith Emperor’s personal executioner, the grimly fatalistic Lord Scourge has personally killed more than a hundred Jedi–and ten times as many Sith.

-- Lord Scourge Entry, The Old Republic

"Entire generations of the Sith Dark Council have passed under the watchful eyes of the Emperor's personal executioner, the grim Lord Scourge. As the feared "Emperor's Wrath," Scourge enforced his Master's will for more than three centuries. When a Jedi grew too powerful or a Sith too ambitious, Scourge eliminated the threat. Conspiracy theories held that Scourge was a title rather than a man, for even pureblooded Sith are mortal... However, the Dark Council knew the truth. There was only one Scourge, his life prolonged by Sith alchemy, and his battle prowess enhance by the Emperor."
-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia

Scourge was an expert swordsman; at the Academy even the instructors had been reluctant to face him in the training ring. When the dark side flowed through him, his blade was more than a weapon. It became an extension of his will.

Captain Yarri’s skill with her electrostaff was impressive, but ultimately she was no match for a Sith Lord. Knowing this, she had wisely adopted a defensive style to hold off the first few flurries of Scourge’s attack, her focus on stalling him long enough for one of her companions to join the fray before switching to a more aggressive form.

Now Scourge was forced to defend himself on two fronts as he backed into the throne room. In his peripheral vision he saw that Meetra was in a similar situation, retreating while battling a pair of enemies.

The fact that Revan hadn’t come to their aid told Scourge that the Jedi had gone to confront the Emperor, conjuring up images from Scourge’s vision of him lying broken and beaten on the floor at the Emperor’s feet.

Yarri’s staff slipped through his defenses and clipped him on his right shoulder. Scourge’s armor absorbed the worst of the blow, though he felt a painful jolt from the electrostaff’s charge that made his hand and arm tingle.

Even as Scourge cursed himself for allowing thoughts of his vision to distract him, he deftly switched his blade from his temporarily numb right hand to his left. The move was dangerous; it left him momentarily vulnerable as he made the switch. Fortunately his opponents were unprepared for the unorthodox tactic, and neither was able to take advantage.

While he and Meetra fought the quartet of guards, T3-M4 was busy sealing the doors. The droid was spraying black foam along the edge where the double doors came together. Scourge recognized the foam as a powerful contact adhesive commonly used to repair starships; seconds after being exposed to air it would harden into a substance that could be cut only with a plasma torch.

Yarri’s blade nearly caught him again, narrowly missing his cheek, and Scourge swore out loud. If he didn’t stay focused on the fight, his vision of the Emperor killing him wouldn’t even have a chance to come true....

Scourge pressed his attack, calling on the dark side to transform his uncertainty and fear into white-hot rage. He felt the power coursing through him, the spark of fury deep inside him igniting into a firestorm of death and destruction.

Left-handed, Scourge unleashed a pair of savage chops at Yarri’s partner, using raw brute strength to overpower his physically weaker opponent. The guard parried the blows, but the first knocked him off balance and the second sent him stumbling backward.

While the guard struggled to recover, Scourge focused his assault on the captain. Yarri sensed the shift in her opponent too late to switch back to a more defensive form, and the Sith Lord was quick to exploit the tactical flaw.

A four-move sequence overwhelmed Yarri, causing her to leave her right flank unprotected. Scourge seized the opportunity, his blade biting deep into her hip. Yarri screamed, dropped her blade, and fell to the ground. The other guard leapt to her defense, recklessly throwing himself between his fallen captain and Scourge. The only reward for his effort was a quick death, delivered by a diagonal lightsaber slash across his chest.

At Scourge’s feet, Yarri fumbled to reclaim her weapon. The agony of her wound made her desperate and clumsy, giving Scourge time to relish her suffering. As her fingers wrapped around the hilt of her electrostaff, he brought his boot down on top of her hand, crushing the bones.

He stared into the captain’s eyes one last time, savoring her terror before decapitating her with a single stroke.

-- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

(Note that it’s pre-Act II Scourge, and he beat soldiers who even the Dark Council feared)

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-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia

It is self-evident that Scourge is above the Dark Council, which should put him above Angral too. After all, he is Vitiate’s personal executioner.

Yet, on a powerful DS Nexus, the HoT stalemates him. If HoT is going from Sub-Angral to on par, or above, the Wrath, it is unlikely that he didn’t have immense growth. Also, the Wrath says the Hero is “the finest” of the Jedi, being above Kira, who you showed had growth from Act I to II. Scourge’s comments also put him above the Jedi who “grew too powerful” that the Wrath had to execute, which cements the idea of a parity between the two.

TP


Fulminiss is also using his TP powers on people who are willingly to become subdued, as is shown in the Healing Shrine (the healers didn’t expect him to do that/it's also a place of "ancient power"), and his apprentices (who are fodder and wouldn’t fight back). The ritual he would perform is also made on a mega potent DS Nexus.

Quotes wrote:

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-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia

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-- The Old Republic Encyclopedia

(Aayla willingly submitting to Karkko's influence, which makes it easier)

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-- Fact File 98


Cade wipes Maladi’s memories of Ossus, not all her memories. She doesn’t show to remember what happened on the planet, other than Cade using the Force on her (which is purposeful considering Cade’s nature). Now, Maladi is highly hyped in Legacy as one of the best Sith Lords of Krayt. And Cade is successful in his TP, despite being his first time ever using that power.

Quotes wrote:Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) 5016136-8955917842-11bb4

(Krayt asking Maladi for her knowledge on Sith Alchemy)

Extremly skilled in both Sith alchemy and the manipulation of Yuuzhan Vong bioengineering, Darth Maladi is very much a student of science as well as mysticism.

-- Legacy Campaign Guide

The most powerful Sith Lords possess a talent for the dark alchemy of the Sith. The Emperor, like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun long before him, became a master of manipulating the genetic building blocks of living creatures through the dark side.

-- Dark Side Sourcebook


Then you’re comparing Wyyrlok TP influencing Krayt (intended to be around/above ROTS Titans), not a good comparison. Fulminiss is performing those feats either on a nexus or on people who aren’t expecting/are submitting to his influence. His base version should not scale him above either of the Legacy's feats.

Quotes wrote:“Imperial Knights. Yes, in the first two issues you see every one you encounter die. But look at who they are up against. The first four are up against Darth Krayt himself. We saw Palpatine take out four Jedi masters; I submit it doesn't put the IK in a bad light to suggest that Krayt is in that class.”

-- John Ostrander

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-- Legacy Campaign Guide

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-- The Clone Wars Campaign Guide

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Plag wrote:Cool, half of the team is shown to be pathetic and Kira has scaling in resisting the Emperor's control far better than any of the strike team does.

Not sure why any of these quotes are relevant? The quotes still say they are the best of the Order, that would only put a growth Kira above them, and Hero above Kira.

Plag wrote:Neither Baras nor Angral are sorcerers, nor are they alchemists. Nothing that you've cited goes against Sel-Makor calling Baras a "greater Sith" than Fulminiss.

I’ve never said that quote binds Baras or Angral, just mentioned that it seems unreasonable to me that a character so high in the hierarchy to be so far below per one quote only.

Plag wrote:Kol's stats are higher than S1 Anakin's in key areas such as Force (7 vs 6), Use The force, 2 extra Jedi ranks (2 Jedi Master vs 2 pilot), etc. This should suggest that Kol is a greater Force user than S1 Anakin. In contrast to the Shan bloodline, we know that while all Skywalkers are strong in the Force, there are still big gaps in potential. In fact, Satele is a descendant of two legendary Force users, and thus also inherits some of Revan's power.

Funny thing is that Kol is possibly the son of Ben Skywalker, who is hinted to be stronger in the Force than Anakin, who was already above Luke in potential. Being the son of someone with Luke+ potential, gives the descendant a lot of potential too, especially since Ben was romantically involved with another Force user. My point is about Anakin being close to Kol at that point, your logic needs to Kol to be far above, which isn’t the case.

Galactic Files wrote:
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”That doesn’t explain the focus on Ben,’ Kyle said, ‘if it was just a matter of being a Force-user, Abeloth could have taken Valin or Jysella—or one of her Sith servants—just as easily. It’s something else . . . something that makes Ben special.
‘Well, he is a Skywalker,’ Kyp Durron pointed out. ‘The grandson of the Chosen One.’
‘And Jaina is a granddaughter of the Chosen One,’ Luke countered. ‘I’m more inclined to think it has something to do with Shelter. Maybe Abeloth just wants him because he withdrew from her touch when he was a toddler.’
Kyp shook his head. ‘Sorry, but no,’ he said. ‘Jaina is Han’s daughter just as much as Leia’s, and that means only one parent is a Force-user. Ben is the son of two parents who were very strong in the Force. No offense to Jaina, but Ben has Special Destiny written all over him.’
Luke’s face fell, and Jaina could tell by the silence that followed that he saw the wisdom of Kyp’s suggestion—as did everyone else at the table. Abeloth had gone after Ben because of what Ben was . . . and that meant she had something special in mind for him.”

-- Fate of the Jedi: Apocalypse

(Jaina lesser than Ben -> reason that Ben was born from two Force users -> Anakin Solo was born from only one Force user)

As his Jedi uncle Luke Skywalker watches his growth, Anakin doesn’t realise he may have the strongest Force powers of his lineage.

-- Star Wars: 1996 Finest #41 Anakin Solo

Anakin's bold stance and daring nature made him into a popular figure among the Jedi and New Republic. Many privately whispered that he would someday take Luke Skywalker's place as the most powerful Jedi. The bloody events of the ongoing war would indisputably provide an answer to that speculation.

-- Anakin Solo Databank

The youngest of Han and Leia Solo’s children. All three Solo offspring are strong in the ways of the Force, although Anakin is especially gifted and may one day become the most powerful Jedi the galaxy has ever known.

-- Star Wars: Behind the Magic

Inheriting his mother’s and his grandfather’s Force abilities, Anakin Solo had the potential to become the greatest Jedi of his generation.

-- Star Wars Fact File #114


It’s evident that potential won’t indicate that the characters are on the same power level/above after a x amount of time, because if that were so, Kol Skywalker (who is the son of someone with Luke+ potential) should be well above S1 Anakin, and not put on the same challenge level as him (CL is credited as the difficulty of the fight, and Kol and Anakin share the same level). In fact, Kol fought a three-year war against the Imperial/Sith Forces, which, as you’ve shown, makes characters powerful.

The Essential Guide to Warfare wrote:

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-- The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia: Volume III


Plag wrote:Within the S-canon realm, Bastila's stats are well above both K'kruhk and Asajj Ventress.

Bastila’s stats are outdated. The character level in Saga never surpasses 20, as those that are in that level are “the most powerful”; and WOTC never showed any hint to change this. So, had Saga extended to SWTOR, characters’ stats would be changed to accommodate the new additions, Bastila’s stats should only count to 2009.

Wizards of the Coast wrote:Q: Is Wizards of the Coast ever going to release an "Epic Level Handbook" for the Star Wars Roleplaying Game?

A: Wizards has announced no intention to do so. The major stumbling blocks are that the most powerful characters in the Star Wars universe are themselves 20th level. Some people see that as a mistake, though, saying that characters like Yoda, the Emperor, Mace Windu, Darth Vader, and Luke Skywalker (circa The New Jedi Order era) should be higher level. There's a certain amount of logic to that argument, but not enough to justify a sourcebook to support a handful of nonplayer characters.

Many people who ask about an epic-level sourcebook for Star Wars really just want to have characters advance beyond 20th level. But nothing in the revised core rulebook says that you absolutely can't; it's your campaign, after all. Just extend Table 3-1: Experience and Level-Dependent Benefits; the progression is fairly clear.

If, on the other hand, what you really want are epic-level feats, you're probably best served by simply converting feats from the Epic Level Handbook for Dungeons & Dragons.

-- Source


Plag wrote:In addition, it is clear that there are several characters that are not meant to be bound below Ventress, and some even by Dooku. Suffice to say, this singular quote is an outlier and is the dissenting opinion.

The first quote is about gameplay; the Nihilus quotes means nothing, Ventress can still be above; Karness’ spirit didn’t fight the Jedi Order as a whole (which is what the quote references); those are 2011 scans, Ventress doesn’t bind them; Nadd quote is pre-TOTJ era only; Vader quote is about training; I doubt that Revan quote has greater LFL involvement than the successor to Fact Files.

Plag wrote:So Darth Malgus, a confirmed inferior of the Sith Lord Darth Angral, was not only the key to Palpatine's "ultimate power" but he also greatly impressed Palpatine in terms of both knowledge and power. This in itself should support the notion of Angral > Malgus > Asajj, if not have Malgus over even more PT era combatants.

Malgus being impressive per Sidious isn’t a bind to the PT characters, especially Ventress, who Sidious even fears her growth in power. The quote about his feats could fall into his military strategy prowess. Especially when Yoda is compared to SoR Revan in combat (although not a bind it shows that the intention for high level PT characters isn’t to be below ToC Malgus/likewise, the gap between Yoda and Ventress is not as big as the gap between Revan and ToC Malgus).

Charles Boyd wrote:Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) UdzqSfC

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"Revan should be like Yoda or something. You almost never have a movie about Yoda or a show. There are a few episodes in the Clone Wars that are about Yoda. Yoda mostly just shows up and just is awesome and then moves on and then the other characters are just left dealing with it right. That's the way you use Revan."

-- Charles Boyd


What is a Sith Warrior? wrote:Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Unknown

In the end, you haven’t disproved my chain, nor have you made a convincing case for Satele >> Bastila. The TP comparisons don’t hold up for their circumstances, and the Malgus quote is autistic. K’Kruhk wins.

Character count: 4,814.
Darth Rymrgand
Darth Rymrgand

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Empty Re: Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan)

July 21st 2021, 12:07 am

Rebuttals

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@AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"I will first look at Scourge to explain the gap. He is pretty much above every other Sith in the Empire, where even the most powerful of the Dark Council fear him, he was specifically tasked to execute the most powerful Sith/Jedi that rose in the galaxy, and after Scourge fled, the most powerful Sith Lords of the Empire were considered to become the Wrath, yet no one was chosen."
It is factually incorrect that nobody was chosen to become the new Emperor's Wrath. Let us take a look at the Second Emperor's Wrath.

Sith Warrior Act III:

Prelude to Corellia wrote:Wrath: "Why not just kill Baras? Nothing else would matter if Baras was taken out."
Servant One: "For now, he is untouchable. But Vowrawn can grant you access to him."

Darth Marr, Senior Dark Council Member wrote:"You are acknowledged, Wrath. Your actions will not be challenged as long as they do not contradict our own."

Prelude to final confrontation with Baras wrote:Wrath: "He will suffer greatly. I'm going to make him pay for every indignity I have endured."
Servant Two: "Fury must remain shy of blind."

Prelude to final confrontation with Baras wrote:Wrath: "The ultimate test awaits. This will be my greatest challenge."
Servant Two: "Baras' power is deep, hidden."

Servant One to Emperor's Wrath wrote:"To stand among the Darths, you will need Vowrawn close."

Servant One to Emperor's Wrath wrote:"The Dark Council doesn't take kindly to intrusions, and Baras still has support there. Vowrawn must back you, then you must express the Emperor's will."

SWTOR Encyclopedia wrote:"Fueled by revenge and guided by the Emperor's Hand, the Sith warrior sets out to destroy Darth Baras before he seizes control of the Empire. The Emperor's Wrath joins forces with Darth Vowrawn, a charming member of the Dark Council, to weaken Baras and support the challenge against the Wrath's former Master. When all the pieces are in place, the Wrath prepares for the final crushing assault against Darth Baras.
The Emperor's Wrath ultimately marches into the Dark Council chambers to expose Darth Baras as a fraud and a traitor who lies about speaking the Emperor's will. But to prove such a bold claim to the Dark Council, the Wrath battles Darth Baras in a fierce duel. The Wrath emerges triumphant, striking down the ruined and seething Baras."

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Seems clear to me that the Emperor's Hand, SWTORE, Second Wrath, etc all acknowledge members of the Dark Council being genuine threats to the Wrath in a fight. Before you claim that Scourge is simply superior, I find it unlikely...

Voss:

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So the Wrath faced a large portion of the Voice's power, controlled by Sel-Makor. Scourge on the other hand.

Scourge:
Lord Scourge wrote:"I will fly us to the Emperor's temple, but you must face him alone. No one else can resist his direct influence."

Lord Scourge wrote:"Don't be foolish. We have surprised the Emperor, but he will recover quickly. We cannot grant him time to gather his power."

@AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"It is self-evident that Scourge is above the Dark Council, which should put him above Angral too. After all, he is Vitiate’s personal executioner."
Yet Scourge is already admitting that Fulminiss and his apprentices are a threat to an individual that is a greater combatant than him. Scourge also admits that those who are "strong enough to challenge" the emperor are often "co-opted into the dark council".

Scourge sucks:

Lord Scourge wrote:"Lord Fulminiss is dangerous. As are his apprentices. This won't be easy."

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Likewise, I am sure that you are aware that a similar situation allowed for 6 random Sith sabers to give Luke and Jaina difficulty.

Fate of the Jedi:

Fate of the Jedi: Ascension wrote:“Luke and Jaina were fighting back-to-back. The Sith attacking them had two advantages. One was the fact that they outnumbered the two Jedi. The second was the dark-side nexus within the temple. It surged forth like psychic sewage, clogging the Jedi’s reflexes as it fueled their enemies. But Luke had fought the Lost Tribe before, and he knew their style. He knew, too, that because until recently they had only sparred and perhaps dueled amongst themselves, they had a lot to learn. But even Luke Skywalker would be foolish not to completely focus on a battle against six Sith.

@AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Yet, on a powerful DS Nexus, the HoT stalemates him. If HoT is going from Sub-Angral to on par, or above, the Wrath, it is unlikely that he didn’t have immense growth. Also, the Wrath says the Hero is “the finest” of the Jedi, being above Kira, who you showed had growth from Act I to II. Scourge’s comments also put him above the Jedi who “grew too powerful” that the Wrath had to execute, which cements the idea of a parity between the two."
Check above for why I question Scourge supremacy. What is relevant here is that Kira is a extremely potent combatant herself.

@AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Fulminiss is also using his TP powers on people who are willingly to become subdued, as is shown in the Healing Shrine (the healers didn’t expect him to do that/it's also a place of "ancient power"), and his apprentices (who are fodder and wouldn’t fight back). The ritual he would perform is also made on a mega potent DS Nexus."
Shrine amps Voss, don't see any of those people as "willing". Disagree on apprentices being fodder. Ritual being on a nexus is why my main focus is his showings off of it.

Likewise, Fulminiss utilizing sorcery is at a disadvantage in speed of use.

Book of the Sith:
Sorzus Syn wrote:"Spells, however, require time to prepare and to recite--they are challenging to use during combat. Sith kings often remove their best sorcerers from the battlefield's scrum, positioning them atop high parpets where they rain curses upon the enemy's legions below."

@AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"(Krayt asking Maladi for her knowledge on Sith Alchemy)"
I'm sure that you're aware of Doctor Isen, who is proficient in Sith Alchemy.
Doctor Isen:

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Yet despite his skills in alchemy, his status as a non-warrior has led to him being of lower value and being unworthy of the title of "Darth".
Doctor Isen:

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@AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Not sure why any of these quotes are relevant? The quotes still say they are the best of the Order, that would only put a growth Kira above them, and Hero above Kira."
Kira is already performing great in resisting Vitiate while fighting Angral. As such, baseline Kira as of that fight is already above Leeha and Warren Sedoru, before growing.

@AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"I’ve never said that quote binds Baras or Angral, just mentioned that it seems unreasonable to me that a character so high in the hierarchy to be so far below per one quote only."
Here is the thing. This is one of the most concrete binds that we get within SWTOR and Star Wars in general. We get told:
A: There are two characters, Baras and Fulminiss.
B: The point of reference is X and Y.
C: As of the time in which they made their bargain, Baras was already greater than Fulminiss.
D: Both are then gifted power in their deal with Sel-Makor.
This is not a blanket supremacy quote, this is a direct comparison of two characters by a source that should be considered reliable in this instance. This very much tells me that Baras is meant to be held extremely highly, Angral benefits because of his closeness to Baras and being his rival.

@AaylaSecurafan87 wrote:"Funny thing is that Kol is possibly the son of Ben Skywalker, who is hinted to be stronger in the Force than Anakin, who was already above Luke in potential. Being the son of someone with Luke+ potential, gives the descendant a lot of potential too, especially since Ben was romantically involved with another Force user. My point is about Anakin being close to Kol at that point, your logic needs to Kol to be far above, which isn’t the case."
Love to see another one jump on the Ben brigade. Ben and Vestara NOT having children is a LFL mandate btw.
Troy Denning:

Troy Denning, Professional Killik Lover wrote:"At that point, we were talking about using the One Sith, instead of the Lost Tribe. And the editors eyes got really big and they looked at each other, and the marketing people looked at each other, and they started shaking their heads. Then Christie, Aaron, and I all chimed in and said, 'no, no, no, this is such a great idea, this has to be the way that it goes, it will be so Romeo and Juliet, you know". And once we got onto the Shakespearean avenue, they started to understand what we were trying to achieve at that point. And they said, "Well, okay, but they can't end up together at the end." That was the one rule we had, that Vestara couldnt end up with Ben at the end, they couldn't become a couple. It didn't have anything to do with good and evil or redemption or any of that, it's because I think they really didnt want to repeat the Luke and Mara story. You know, it would be too many parallels. And I was good with that. You know, I think that Vestara is a wonderful character, I came back to her in Crucible, and I think that if the EU survives with that era intact, then I'm sure that she will be somebody that keeps reappearing time and time again."
Funny you should mention Ben, we know for a fact that his growth and training were seriously stunted.

Fate of the Jedi:

Fate of the Jedi: The Saga Continues wrote:"The son of Luke and Mara Jade Skywalker, young Ben was born at a time of brutal war. The vicious Yuuzhan Vong destroyed entire worlds in their crusade to conquer the galaxy, and targeted the Jedi specifically as heretics that needed to be destroyed. As the son of Luke Skywalker—grandson of Anakin Skywalker—Ben was genetically predisposed to be an immensely powerful Force user. But, as a young boy, Ben shied away from his connection to the Force. He withdrew, possible retreating from the constant disturbances in the Force caused by the terrible destruction of the war.
Only one person seemed to be able to coax Ben from out of his shell—his cousin, Jacen Solo."

Likewise there are scarce details on Kol's history and early life, which leaves us unaware of if there was a similar situation for him.

@AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"It’s evident that potential won’t indicate that the characters are on the same power level/above after a x amount of time, because if that were so, Kol Skywalker (who is the son of someone with Luke+ potential) should be well above S1 Anakin, and not put on the same challenge level as him (CL is credited as the difficulty of the fight, and Kol and Anakin share the same level). In fact, Kol fought a three-year war against the Imperial/Sith Forces, which, as you’ve shown, makes characters powerful."
I'm not the idiot that approved of Kol's stats being as low as they are. I do agree, they should be higher. I find it more likely that Kol is the grandson or great grandson. Yes, both S1 anakin and Kol have experienced some degree of war growth. 3 years is still a far cry from the ridiculousness that is 28 years. In addition, we hear very little about Kol's exploits. For all we know, he was sitting around, doing nothing, the entire war.

Pre-S1 Anakin's War Exploits:

Pablo Hidalgo, Essential Readers Companion wrote:“The animated series does not adhere to this timeline, thus requiring that all published dates be taken with a grain of salt. Anakin Skywalker’s ascension from Padawan to Jedi Knight, for example, is pegged by the novel Jedi Trial (2004) as happening around thirty months after the start of the war. Yet the animated series advances Anakin to this rank at the very beginning of the conflict. This leaves few options: either the date provided in Jedi Trial is incorrect, or all television stories are compressed to the last six months of the war. As always, a storyline direct from George Lucas trumps publishing continuity, and it’s the Jedi Trial date that gets discarded. However, it’s important to note that it’s not novel’s story that is disavowed as a result.”

Pablo Hidalo, Essential Readers Companion wrote:“Aboard their starfighters, Anakin and Obi-Wan Kenobi intercept the Separatist Storm Fleet. Anakin lures the Separatist fleet into a treacherous stretch of the Llon Nebula, delaying the ships from an engagement in the Cyphar system.”

Pablo Hidalo, Essential Readers Companion wrote:“Obi-Wan Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker uncover a Separatist droid factory on Dagro that specializes in experimental anti-city terror droid deployers called crawl carriers. After scuttling the facility, the Jedi destroy the last of the carriers with the help of local farmers.”

Fact File #107 wrote:“Anakin made an emergency trip to Ulic Qel-Droma’s tomb on Rhen Var. There, the ancient Jedi gave the Padawan the knowledge he needed to resist the effects of the Force Harvester and to destroy the Dark Reaper.”

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Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image1

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image1

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image1

Meme:
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@AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Bastila’s stats are outdated. The character level in Saga never surpasses 20, as those that are in that level are “the most powerful”; and WOTC never showed any hint to change this. So, had Saga extended to SWTOR, characters’ stats would be changed to accommodate the new additions, Bastila’s stats should only count to 2009"
This does not mean that Bastila's stats are outdated. This is a stretch, and likewise doesn't influence the fact that LS Bastila's stats were being written above Kol, above K'Kruhk, above Ventress, etc.

@AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"The first quote is about gameplay; the Nihilus quotes means nothing, Ventress can still be above; Karness’ spirit didn’t fight the Jedi Order as a whole (which is what the quote references); those are 2011 scans, Ventress doesn’t bind them; Nadd quote is pre-TOTJ era only; Vader quote is about training; I doubt that Revan quote has greater LFL involvement than the successor to Fact Files."
Ventress quote is from Vehicles Collection, so see 0 reason for the other quote from there to be irrelevant. You try calling the Malgus quote "autistic" but want to argue Ventress > world eater. For Muur, a few exiles did leave Korriban and his post exile tricks are known by the Jedi. I think there are too many contradictions to buy the quote.
Muur:

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Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0

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@AaylaSecuraFan87 wrote:"Malgus being impressive per Sidious isn’t a bind to the PT characters, especially Ventress, who Sidious even fears her growth in power. The quote about his feats could fall into his military strategy prowess. Especially when Yoda is compared to SoR Revan in combat (although not a bind it shows that the intention for high level PT characters isn’t to be below ToC Malgus/likewise, the gap between Yoda and Ventress is not as big as the gap between Revan and ToC Malgus)."
I really don't care for the Boyd quotes that you showed. Yoda comparison I'd take some thought on if he ever worked in PT era content. Palpatine being impressed by both Malgus' Force mastery and his battlefield performances are meaningful, and does mean that Malgus would scale high within the PT.


Andeddu


I am sure that you are aware that Andeddu's holocron housed his spirit.

Legacy:
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We see that Wyyrlock relied on Andeddu's own fears in order to defeat him telepathically.

Legacy:
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Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0

Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0

Wyyrlock's goal was acquiring Andeddu's knowledge.

Knowledge:
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Darth Bane had the same goal, and was able to take the knowledge directly from Andeddu.

Dynasty of Evil:

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil wrote:With one final push of the Force, he reached out with his mind and seized what he had been searching for. With the aid of the gatekeeper the information would have taken weeks to absorb and learn. Bane, however, had gone right to the source. The knowledge stream directly from the holocron into his mind, raw and unfiltered. Thousands of images flooded his consciousness, an explosion of sights, sounds, and thoughts that cussed him to drop the holocron to the floor, breaking the connection.”

By proxy of Andeddu we get Bane >>> Andeddu < Wyyrlock.


Zannah

Zannah is a Sith sorceress, who has showcased similar mental abilities to Fulminiss.

Sorcery:

Darth Bane: Rule of Two wrote:"Zannah shook her elbow free of Cyndra's grasp and raised her shackled hands before her face. Weaving her fingers in a complex pattern in the air, she reached out with the Force and plunged deep inside the Chiss woman's mind to find her secret, most primal fears. Buried in her subconscious were nameless horrors: abominations and creatures of nightmare never meant to see the light of day. Drawing on the power of Sith sorcery, Zannah plucked them out and brought them to life one by one."

Darth Bane: Rule of Two wrote:"The illusions grew more real and more terrifying the longer the spell continued, but Zannah had no intention of ending it yet."

Darth Bane: Rule of Two wrote:"The spell she had unleashed on Cyndra was powerful but exhausting. Zannah doubted she'd be able to get a similar reaction in Paak before he ran her through with his blade."
Yet Zannah is getting exhausted by performing this on one non-Force sensitive. Compare that to Fulminiss near effortlessly doing the same to groups of Sith and Voss. In the following book, Zannah is able to utilize similar sorcery on Bane.

Dynasty of Evil:

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil wrote:"That didn't mean he wasn't prepared, however. Dark side sorcery was complex; it attacked the psyche in ways that were difficult to explain and even more difficult to defend against. Bane had no real talent for it, yet he had done his best to study the techniques. What he learned was that the only real counter was the victim's strength of will.
Zannah's assault began as a sharp pain in his skull, like a hot knife stabbing directly into his brain before carving down to slice the two hemispheres in half. Then the knife exploded, sending a million burning shards in every direction. Each one burrowed into his subconscious, seeking out buried fears and nightmares only to rip them free and haul them from the surface. Bane let out a scream and dropped to his knees."

Darth Bane: Dynasty of Evil wrote:"For a second she thought she had won as Bane let out a shriek, but the burst of energy that followed sent her reeling back. Regaining her balance she saw that Bane was on his feet again, and she knew he had resisted the spell."

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Likewise, Zannah hides amongst the Jedi for a short period of time.

Zannah:

Darth Bane: Rule of Two wrote:“The only way the plan would work was if she could use the power of Sith sorcery to mask her strength while simultaneously projecting an aura of light-side energy. It was a complicated spell, one she had never tried before. It required a balance of strength and delicacy, and she had practiced it continuously in the weeks leading up to her departure. Yet despite her best efforts, there were still moments when her concentration slipped and her true nature showed through.”

Darth Bane: Rule of Two wrote:For five long hours she continued her research without a break. Time and time again she brought datacards back to the terminal and scoured their contents, only to find that they offered nothing new. Frustrated, she would eject the cards and compile a new list of possible sources, then return to the stacks to switch the old data cards for those promising better results. It was the rumbling in her stomach that told her it was time to take a break. If she became distracted—too tired or too hungry—her spell might falter, exposing Zannah’s true nature to those around her. It had happened once before, on the first day when she pushed herself too hard and worked long into the night. It had lasted only an instant, a momentary lapse into the night, but that could have been enough to doom her. Fortunately, at that late hour the Archives had been mostly deserted and nobody had been close enough to notice the Sith in their midst. Since then, however, Zannah had been much more careful.”

Darth Bane: Rule of Two wrote:“She had found it. She had found it! Zannah leapt to her feet, pumping a clenched fist in a quiet victory celebration, barely able to contain a fierce shout of triumph. And in her moment of elation, the spell concealing her true identity slipped.

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In contrast, Angral's rival in Baras has spies within the Jedi Order.

Spies:

Sith Warrior Act 1 wrote:Warrior: "You've successfully infiltrated the Jedi Order?"
Baras: "Yes. My operatives are completely undetected, and I wish to keep it that way."

SWTOR Encyclopedia wrote:"Nomen Karr escaped with his life, but from speaking with Darth Baras, he suspected a chilling truth: that Darth Baras had placed spies within the Jedi and Republic."

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Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0

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Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0

The spy requires Jaesa's unique talent to be exposed.

Jaesa Wilsaam:

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SWTOR Codex:Jaesa Wilsaam wrote:“Once in a millennium, a man or woman is born who expands the frontiers of what Force users can achieve. Proud, young Jedi Padawan Jaesa Willsaam discovered the unprecedented ability to discern any being’s true nature and uncover a person’s most secret intentions."

Jaesa Wilsaam wrote:"I sense rigidty and putrid calm, earnestness and logic and... wait! This one is filled with deceit, and now rage blossoms. She is the Sith spy!"

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Injaye had hidden within the Jedi for long enough to be a Master and fight alongside Jedi, which would be challenging while using sorcery to mask oneself.

Spy:

\"Master" Injaye wrote:"Stupid fool. I would have led these Jedi to their deaths and struck a great victory for the Empire."

Master Joce wrote:"I sense truth. I feel a shift in her. Have we been blind to it all this time?

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Remember Boyd? Of course you do!

Boyd:
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It seems to me that not only is Lord Fulminiss piggybacking off of scaling massively over Zannah, but so is is a random servant of Darth Baras, who undoubtedly is massively below him.
Angral > Fulminiss >>> RoT Z << DoE Bane >>> Andeddu < Wyyrlock
Angral ~ ToC Baras >>>> Spy >>> RoT Z << DoE Bane >>> Andeddu < Wyyrlock

Krayt

That is a nice Krayt quote.

John Ostrander wrote:“Imperial Knights. Yes, in the first two issues you see every one you encounter die. But look at who they are up against. The first four are up against Darth Krayt himself. We saw Palpatine take out four Jedi masters; I submit it doesn't put the IK in a bad light to suggest that Krayt is in that class.

Lets recall Krayt's condition afterwards.

Legacy:
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Darth Baras has a sister, who was imprisoned during the GGW.

Imprisoned:

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Stomper Showdown R4 #2 - Darth Angral (Darth Plagueis the Wise) vs K'kruhk (AaylaSecuraFan) Image0

She believes her power to have atrophied.

Imprisoned:
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She oneshots a fellow Sith.

Melicoste:
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She faces the Wrath and is confident in her brother's superiority, despite her losing.

Baras:

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Not the same level as Krayt, but still overall impressive. Being utterly exhausted after fighting 4 fodder vs effortlessly destroying 1 fodder with a gesture.
Rest of Legacy (minus Roan) <<< Krayt = crushing 4 enemies >> oneshot 1 enemy = Ekkhage << perception of Baras >/~ ToC Baras ~ Angral

Characters: 5,915/6,000
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