Stomper Showdown R3 #4 - Boc Aseca (Ghost of Grievous) vs TUF! Jacen Solo (RNGesus4)

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Alright. Let's begin:

Why does Jacen beat Boc? He has more impressive feats than Boc. He has defeated more impressive foes than Boc has. And he simply scales higher than Boc.

Boc is defeated by Dark Forces Kyle. Who's very much still in the early stages of his career.

Aseca carried two lightsabers, making him an uncommon and dangerous opponent. Kyle Katarn defeated him in the Valley of the Jedi.

-Databank, Aseca, Boc

The copycat tactic ultimately didn't help him, however. Upon meeting Kyle Katarn, Boc smashed the lightsaber Master Qu Rahn had given to Kyle. But Kyle later used Yun's lightsaber to end Boc's Jedi dreams, cutting the Twi'lek down at the foot of a statue honoring Newar Forrth in the Valley of the Jedi.

-The Dark Forces Saga, Part 4

Even if you want to make a case for Boc's performance in the novellas, he only really pushes Kyle back. It doesn't really put Boc above Kyle. Especially with other sources (including the ones above) not implying that it was a pressing fight.

-Dark Forces Jedi Knight

So DF Kyle >~ Boc

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And with his continued practice after DF, we can assume that Mysteries of the Sith Kyle and JA Kyle would be > DF Kyle. Especially with the training and trials he's gone through in both MOTS and JA.

-Mysteries of the Sith

Long used to operating independently, Katarn at first refused Luke Skywalker's offer to become a Jedi apprentice. Instead, he continued to serve the Alliance, now the New Republic, on many important missions. After a troubling run-in with the dark side on the forgotten Sith world of Dromund Kaas, Katarn conceded that he would benefit from Skywalker's tutelage, and joined the Jedi Master's fledgling Jedi academy.

-Databank, Katarn, Kyle

Kyle truly became great and powerful when he joined Luke's order for good.

Kyle Katarn also danced on the edges of Jedi greatness for years before fully joining Luke Skywalker's New Jedi Order.

-Kyle Katarn, Jedi Outcast Wizards.com

Miniatures stats also support his growth

So Boc <~ DF Kyle < JA Kyle <<< Combat Instructor Kyle/NJO Kyle

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So where does Jacen figure into this?

Leia notes Jacen's power as unmatched by those of any other Jedi. (As of NJO) Solidly putting him above all other NJO Jedi (save for Luke of course)

"Child, listen to me," she shouted to Allana. "Your father understood the beings who transformed this world. Long before you were born we were at war with them, but your father was a force for peace, and his powers were unmatched by those of any other Jedi. He wanted you to grow up in a galaxy free of war. He wanted to protect you at all costs. I want you to reach deep into yourself and find him. As painful as it is, you need to find your father. Stretch out with your feelings. Use the Force!"

-Millennium Falcon

To support this further, let's compare Kyp, Leia, Han, and some other dudes' fight against the lightsaber resistant Yuuzhan Vong Slayers to Jacen's:

Kyp raced for the nearest one, catching the warrior across the chest with a powerful upswing of his blade. The Yuuzhan Vong growled and rolled, but his dark, unarmored flesh showed only a shallow bloodless furrow. Kyp whirled and brought the blade down like an ax. Evading the strike, the warrior rose to one knee and unfurled his amphistaff.

The serpentlike creature elongated and wrapped itself around the hilt of the lightsaber. But Kyp wasn't about to surrender his weapon. In a virtual tug-of-war with the creature, he spun and backflipped, but to little effect. At the same time, a second amphistaff lassoed him around the waist and arms and yanked him roughly to the ground. Han put three bolts into the second warrior, driving him two steps backward with each, but without killing him or persuading the amphistaff to loosen its constricting hold on Kyp. Han yelled for Wraw's help, but in a glance saw that the Bothan was trying desperately to keep the other pair of warriors from grabbing Page.

Without really thinking about it, Leia judged that Han and Kyp were in greater jeopardy. Holding her blade at her right hip and pointed slightly downward, she moved against the warrior whose amphistaff was flinging Kyp from side to side. Han felt rather than saw Leia race past him.

"Leia!" he screamed, firing constantly while he rushed to catch up with her.

A quartet of bolts holed the warrior Leia had targeted. But at once, the other warrior commanded his amphistaff to withdraw from the pommel of Kyp's lightsaber and fly toward Leia. Seeing what was coming, Han dived forward in a frantic attempt to place himself between Leia and the attenuating weapon. Leia watched in horror as the amphistaff struck Han solidly in the neck-and not merely with its rounded head. The jaws of the living weapon gaped, and it sank two long fangs into Han's flesh.

Han landed hard on his side, but quickly got to his knees. He managed to squeeze off three more bolts before the blaster slipped from his trembling hand. He slumped backward on his heels in shock, then tipped to one side, his body curling inward, with his shaking hands close to his chest. Kyp raced forward, only to be set upon by three of the warriors. Leia's mouth fell open in a silent scream.

-TUF

Kyp Durron, Han, Leia, and some commandos couldn't beat 4 slayers who were hindered by Alpha Red before the fight

And note: We have sources that put Kyp Durron above Kyle:

Exar Kun's spirit sought to corrupt Skywalker's students and bring about a dark side reign again. He controlled Luke's most powerful student, Kyp Durron, but in the end, Luke's students united and were able to finally dispel Kun's spirit.

-Databank, Kun, Exar

Skywalker's first class of Jedi students was an eclectic mix of Force-attuned beings from across the galaxy. Kyp was easily the most powerful, and he quickly grew impatient at Skywalker's pace of instruction. Unbeknownst to Luke, an evil presence had infested his praxeum. The shadowy spirit of a long-dead Dark Lord of the Sith, Exar Kun, resided in the ancient temples of Yavin 4.

-Databank, Durron, Kyp

Now compare the performance of Kyp, Leia, Han, and co to Jacen, Luke, and Jaina. They're able to kill 15 Slayers. And these Slayers weren't weakened by Alpha Red either.

Jacen took advantage of the gravitic anomaly now, as one of the slayers lunged for him. He leapt high into the air, and the warrior flew under his feet, only to be pulled to the floor facefirst, so that by the time Jacen had twisted in the air and landed he was able to drive his blade into the small of the warrior's back, almost pinioning him to the floor.
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The short warrior hurried in, his weapon striking at Jacen like a serpent, then stiffening, jabbed him hard in the left forearm, as if to stake the arm to the floor. Jacen twisted out from under the attack, grasping that Luke had again been pressed to the wall. Having killed three of his assailants, he was facing only one opponent, but his energy was beginning to flag. It was not fatigue born of fear of going to the dark side, but simple exhaustion, and Shimrra was moving in. Eager to award the kill to the Supreme Overlord, the slayer closest to Luke turned and ran at Jacen with his amphistaff held overhead like an ax, intent on splitting open his victim's forehead.
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Jacen allowed it to coil around his body; then, as the warrior was reeling the weapon in, Jacen hurled his lightsaber deep into the slayer's armpit.

-TUF

Jacen's able to hold his own for the most part and take out some of the Slayers too. He did far better than Kyp did. I think this is solid enough evidence to justify the Millennium Falcon quote of Jacen being > Most of the NJO as of that point.

So Boc ~< DF Kyle < JA Kyle <<< Combat Instructor Kyle/NJO Kyle < Kyp < Wounded Slayer < Full strength Slayer < Jacen

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As we see, Boc can be viewed as a peer of Kyle Katarn as of DF. Sure. Good for him. It's just too bad that he gets buried by Kyle's growth, Kyp's power, and Jacen's supremacy over NJO Jedi, which includes Kyp and Kyle. And it's backed up by Jacen's performance against the Vong Slayers.

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Characters: 2201

CC:3118

you start by showing 2 quotes to try and say why kyle beat boc easily or wasn’t pressing the fight yet your very first quote regards him as a dangerous opponent.

you’ve read the novel then? Good. Then you’d be aware that kyle was both tapping into the memories of the dead jedi of the valley as well as the darkside and such knowledge was useless to stop boc from taking the edge in the fight. And had jan not interfered, allowing kyle to use the dark spear technique the duel would have gone on much longer and far more intense. Cause you know, boc is a dangerous opponent.









speaking of knowledge. Recall jerecs number two, Sariss. Quite powerful in her own way, Qu rahn feared her, a jedi apart of the clone wars too. But thanks to tapping into the knowledge of the past jedi kyle was able to find the perfect counter to defeat her. And as mentioned before, not for Boc. Showing once again just how dangerous Boc is in saber combat


im glad you mention miniatures. Allow me to do some of my own scaling. This is Darth vader, more specifically the miniature that is said to be the most holistic version of vader in miniature form.





aaaaaand here is jacen solo




and we know that jerec as of DF had powers capable of rivalling vader. The holistic vader, sariss herself was quite close to jerec in most forms depicting her. Which boc happens to benefit from in scaling seeing how kyle faced the dark jedi and “each were more powerful then the last”






so basically vader~jerec(>~sariss>normal boc)>jacen

now to address the DF kyle scaling that I knew you’d do. Id have done the same thing. Id like to show just how potent the valley was itself. Here is yuns comments on the nexus




to little or no talent can feel this nexus’ power. No talent in the force can very well mean non force sensitives too and even if it didn’t its still a nexus of monstrous proportions. Enough that jerec if fully tapped into it could be omnipotent, enough for Boc to be propelled above his better sariss and enough for jerec to be above vader. No doubt kyle would be affected by this nexus amplifying his powers beyond their normal abilities. So you cant scale the kyle that faced boc to later versions of kyle as valley kyle under the nexus could be operating on a level above later versions even with his inexperience


we also have stats to measure too. And jacen is not immune to being statted himself. Behold!






and here is sariss for reference






Seems like NJO jacen isn’t stomping sariss, who DF kyle beat while being amped by spirit knowledge and DS also injured from the ship crash. The version of kyle who would pale to the healed, DS amped, spirit knowledge amped and valley impowered kyle that couldn’t defeat boc without his opponent being distracted. And even then without being warned of the second saber admitted it would have been fatal for him

so DF 2 kyle>jerec~vader>sariss>jacen

or for a less confusing scaling chain

boc~valley DS kyle>>>DF spirit amped kyle>sariss>jacen


Your vong fight is taken a little out of context. Or your simply trying to paint it better then it was, good yes but I implore viewers to read it a little more carefully. Specifically, the first line. Jacen took advantage of an anomaly to get the drop on a vong and then when he found himself bound by the weapon of another stabbed them in the armpit before they were stabbed Clearly a good showing as jacen needed an anomaly of gravity and an opening from a cocky vong eager and sloppy.


power doesn’t always translate to saber skill. There is a disconnect and not 1 to 1, its why vader can be a better warrior then Sidious while the latter is obviously more powerful. So jacen being called more powerful doesn’t translate to him being a greater warrior. Especially against one with boc’s method of madness

Ghost of Grievous wrote:you start by showing 2 quotes to try and say why kyle beat boc easily or wasn’t pressing the fight yet your very first quote regards him as a dangerous opponent.

Boc is referred to as dangerous? Why, I'm shaking in my boots rn! The points there was to emphasize that Boc isn't exactly above Kyle by any means. Kyle at that point was above Boc.

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Ghost of Grievous wrote:you’ve read the novel then? Good. Then you’d be aware that kyle was both tapping into the memories of the dead jedi of the valley as well as the darkside

He only tapped into the dark side to create the Darkshear. He wasn't using it while fighting Boc. Jerec points out that using the Darkshear was the second time he used the dark side.

-Dark Forces Jedi Knight

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Ghost of Grievous wrote:and such knowledge was useless to stop boc from taking the edge in the fight.

The quote implies that Kyle knows how to fight with 2 blades. In this case, knowing how to do something does not equal knowing how to counter it. I know you know this. Just have to state it.

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Ghost of Grievous wrote:And had jan not interfered, allowing kyle to use the dark spear technique the duel would have gone on much longer and far more intense. Cause you know, boc is a dangerous opponent.

Yes the duel would've gone on longer had Jan not interfered, but you see, that doesn't mean Boc would have won. Never is it stated or implied that Kyle would have lost had the duel gone on. In fact, he was literally chided for thinking he couldn't win. He was pushed back, yes. But he was holding his own. I think it's still fair to say Kyle >~ Boc.

But even if you wanna say Boc~DF Kyle, that would still put him below MOTS and NJO Kyle. Because Kyle did grow. And you've yet to debunk that growth.

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Ghost of Grievous wrote:speaking of knowledge. Recall jerecs number two, Sariss. Quite powerful in her own way, Qu rahn feared her, a jedi apart of the clone wars too. But thanks to tapping into the knowledge of the past jedi kyle was able to find the perfect counter to defeat her.

All this shows us is that a weakened Kyle could beat Sariss. Yes, it was with an ancient technique, but that's hardly Boc wank.

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Ghost of Grievous wrote:And as mentioned before, not for Boc. Showing once again just how dangerous Boc is in saber combat

He didn't find a way to beat Boc yet. As I've said earlier, Boc isn't>DF Kyle

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Ghost of Grievous wrote:im glad you mention miniatures. Allow me to do some of my own scaling. This is Darth vader, more specifically the miniature that is said to be the most holistic version of vader in miniature form.

I'm sure you know how we treat rpg stats and such under SL. But allow me to explain. We generally use rpg stats and other S canon material as supporting evidence. We use it to say "My character not only has this scaling that indicates that they are very powerful, but these mini cards, Galactic Files, etc. All support the notion of my character being above yours." Not "My character's stats are superior, therefore my character is above yours."

Leland Chee, Keeper of the Holocron wrote:“Are game mechanics (video games or rpg) canon? For example, does a rpg damage rating like "7d" mean anything? If a C-canon source (like a novel or reference book) contradicts what the game mechanics say, will the book win out? Game mechanics are designed to try to match continuity to fit the purposes of the game for which they were created. They can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another. Because RPGs use dice, there is always the element of random chance involved, which isn't quite applicable to a book. But stats themselves aren't created randomly; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis when writing books. I often look to RPG stats to see for example, what type of Force powers a character may have. Or if we haven't determined the stats of a particular vehicle, we can look to RPG stats for a basis of comparison. Conversely, I think it would be a determinent if books were artificially limited by game stats. So I would agree that a book is going to overrule a stat if there is a contradiction.”

-Insider 101

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So to address the validity of the Suit Vader stats you sent:

Vader's standing is absurdly high and it contradicts pre established lore. Numerous versions of Suit Vader are put above ROTJ Luke and even Jedi Master Luke. And we know that ROTJ Luke is above Suit Vader. And Jedi Master Luke? He'd be even further ahead.

“It’s basically a confrontation where one of them doesn’t want to fight, and he (Vader) keeps trying to push him into it.”

-George Lucas in the ROTJ commentary

-ROTJ Comic

To emphasize this point further, those two Suit Vaders are above 2 versions of KFV

I don't need to tell you KFV > Suit Vader but here's the proof again:

"Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful," he says. "But he ended up losing his arms and a leg and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there's not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20 percent less than the Emperor."

-Vanity Fair interview with GL

-STAR WARS BLUEPRINTS - THE ULTIMATE COLLECTION

There's a lot more evidence for KFV>Suit Vader and ROTJ Luke>Suit Vader. But I'll stop there for this point.

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Ghost of Grievous wrote:aaaaaand here is jacen solo

Aaaaaand that is Jacen as of Balance Point:

But Jacen couldn't stay sidelined for long. A critical moment arrived when he realized he must use the Force to defend his mother. He unleashed the Force in a whirlwind that swept away her Yuuzhan Vong captors. Eventually, the war led Jacen down a very different path and to a new understanding of the Force.

-Champions of the Force Miniature Preview

The Solo Kids experience some huge growth in Star By Star. Balance Point Jacen (the one in the miniature) is below SBS Jacen. Who is below Traitor Jacen. Who is below TUF Jacen. (That's the Jacen you're supposed to debate against btw.)

-Wizards.com, Talkin' Jedi With JD

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Ghost of Grievous wrote:to little or no talent can feel this nexus’ power. No talent in the force can very well mean non force sensitives too and even if it didn’t its still a nexus of monstrous proportions. Enough that jerec if fully tapped into it could be omnipotent, enough for Boc to be propelled above his better sariss and enough for jerec to be above vader. No doubt kyle would be affected by this nexus amplifying his powers beyond their normal abilities. So you cant scale the kyle that faced boc to later versions of kyle as valley kyle under the nexus could be operating on a level above later versions even with his inexperience

Nothing here puts DF Kyle above MOTS Kyle or JA Kyle. The quotes I posted solidly imply he's grown since DF and unless you have any evidence to put DF Kyle>MOTS or JA Kyle, my point stands.

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Ghost of Grievous wrote:we also have stats to measure too. And jacen is not immune to being statted himself. Behold!

The Jacen represented by these stats is Jacen as of Balance Point. And like I proved above, that Jacen is a ways away from SBS. Let alone TUF.

-NJO Sourcebook

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Ghost of Grievous wrote:Seems like NJO jacen isn’t stomping sariss, who DF kyle beat while being amped by spirit knowledge and DS also injured from the ship crash.

Like I said before, Kyle only used the Dark Side twice, first against Maw. Then Boc.

-Dark Forces: Jedi Knight

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Ghost of Grievous wrote:Your vong fight is taken a little out of context. Or your simply trying to paint it better then it was, good yes but I implore viewers to read it a little more carefully. Specifically, the first line. Jacen took advantage of an anomaly to get the drop on a vong and then when he found himself bound by the weapon of another stabbed them in the armpit before they were stabbed Clearly a good showing as jacen needed an anomaly of gravity and an opening from a cocky vong eager and sloppy.

Way to ignore the rest of the fight. I never said Jacen did perfectly. Nor that Jacen eats slayers for breakfast. Simply that his performance against the Slayers (as opposed to Kyp), combined with the Millennium Falcon quote puts him solidly above not only Kyp, but Kyle and most of the NJO as well.

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Ghost of Grievous wrote:power doesn’t always translate to saber skill. There is a disconnect and not 1 to 1, its why vader can be a better warrior then Sidious while the latter is obviously more powerful

True. Good thing Jacen's got both then.

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Ghost of Grievous wrote:So jacen being called more powerful doesn’t translate to him being a greater warrior. Especially against one with boc’s method of madness

I take it you're admitting Jacen is more powerful? Boc isn't horrible. He's just out of his depth. Hero vs Henchman slave. Sorry. The slave doesn't take it

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Character Count: 3463

@Chris Cortosis wins via @Ghost of Grievous's concession. Good luck in the semi-finals RNG.