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KingofBlades
KingofBlades
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AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda

February 8th 2021, 10:38 pm
Gillard calling Dooku an 8 in emails isnt binding in any way shape or form
HeartoftheForce
HeartoftheForce
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AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda

February 8th 2021, 10:39 pm
It was a forum Q&A actually.
KingofBlades
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February 8th 2021, 11:01 pm
Interesting, I was always told the quote was from an email. Doesnt change what I said though  AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda - Page 3 1289255181
iamthatguy
iamthatguy

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February 8th 2021, 11:27 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:Gillard calling Dooku an 8 in emails isnt binding in any way shape or form

It might not be, but being stomped by Anakin is AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda - Page 3 1289255181 AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda - Page 3 1289255181
KingofBlades
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AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda

February 8th 2021, 11:37 pm
Anakin had a form advantage over the count, and besides, Zonakin beats Yoda too
iamthatguy
iamthatguy

AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda

February 9th 2021, 12:21 am
@KingofBlades wrote:Anakin had a form advantage over the count, and besides, Zonakin beats Yoda too

Zonakin beats Yoda despite Lucas confirming unhindered Mustafar Vader couldn't beat Sidious? AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda - Page 3 1289255181 AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda - Page 3 1289255181

KingofBlades
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February 9th 2021, 2:04 am
All the while greenlighting pretty much all IU sources concluding Anakin is the most powerful Jedi combatively. Or greenlighting Sidious saying kfv has unmatched skills in the adult novel. All the while greenlighting KFV possessing unparalleled abilities in the sw.com databank. All the while greenlighting an Anakin whos more conflicted than hes ever been throttling mace who disarmed sheev in the rots game. The amount of Lucas backed evidence for Anakin/Pre Suit Vader supremacy  is overwhelming. It makes one wonder if theres some special, unique variable at play when it comes to Anakin vs Sheev...idk maybe the fact Anakin is twisted around Sheevs finger mentally and could probably be easily unraveled should they fight each other. But you go ahead and cling to the least likely interpretation of a single quote bro, if that helps you sleep at night
iamthatguy
iamthatguy

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February 9th 2021, 2:18 am
@KingofBlades wrote:All the while greenlighting pretty much all IU sources concluding Anakin is the most powerful Jedi combatively.

Disregarded since Jedi Anakin is explicitly confirmed as an 8 by Gillard, only reaching 9 when giving into the darkside. Plus G-canon overrides C-Canon.

Or greenlighting Sidious saying kfv has unmatched skills in the adult novel.

IU opinions aren't evidence, otherwise Grievous>Yoda. Plus G-canon overrides C-Canon.

All the while greenlighting KFV possessing unparalleled abilities in the sw.com databank.

Compared to everyone else in the Jedi temple. Plus G-canon overrides C-Canon.

All the while greenlighting an Anakin whos more conflicted than hes ever been throttling mace who disarmed sheev in the rots game.

Anakin was not conflicted at all in that fight, which is an AU interpretation anyway.

The amount of Lucas backed evidence for Anakin/Pre Suit Vader supremacy  is overwhelming. It makes one wonder if theres some special, unique variable at play when it comes to Anakin vs Sheev...idk maybe the fact Anakin is twisted around Sheevs finger mentally and could probably be easily unraveled should they fight each other. But you go ahead and cling to the least likely interpretation of a single quote bro, if that helps you sleep at night

All the evidence is from C-canon sources which are garbage.

And Lucas would have mentioned Anakin couldn't beat the Emperor because of his mental instability, but he didn't. Your claim is baseless.
Vaelias
Vaelias

AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda

February 9th 2021, 9:46 am
@HeartoftheForce wrote:
@Vaelias wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:RotS stomps.
Why?
 AotC Yoda is a confirmed equal of exhausted AotC Dooku. Who then grows noticeably over the clone wars, yet is still only an 8

RotS Yoda is a 9. And therefore is several magnitudes more powerful. He destroys.
What's to say Yoda is not a 9 in AOTC, there is 0 proof he grew
KingofBlades
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AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda

February 9th 2021, 3:15 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
It seems you misunderstand what I was trying to argue, as well as the very reasons the holocron system is structured the way it is. Let me clear things up for you.

THE HOLOCRON
Before we get into how the evidence I provided stacks up to yours, it is best we first look at the nature of the very structure of the methodology we abide by. How it functions, and perhaps more importantly, why it functions the way it does. Why are there multiple tiers within the system? Why isnt everything on an even plane? Well, lets start with S vs C. Why are things like rpg stats, or video game mechanics below a novel? I'll let Chee take over from here:

AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda - Page 3 Unknow15
AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda - Page 3 Unknow16


Are game mechanics (video games or rpg) canon? For example, does a rpg damage rating like "7d" mean anything? If a C-canon source (like a novel or reference book) contradicts what the game mechanics say, will the book win out?

Game mechanics are designed to try to match continuity to fit the purposes of the game for which they were created. They can serve to provide a scale from which to compare how one character or piece of technology stacks up against another. Because RPGs use dice, there is always the element of random chance involved, which isn't quite applicable to a book.

But stats themselves aren't created randomly; they are based on what is already known. As such, we can always look to them as a basis when writing books. I often look to RPG stats to see for example, what type of Force powers a character may have. Or if we haven't determined the stats of a particular vehicle, we can look to RPG stats for a basis of comparison.

Conversely, I think it would be a determinent if books were artificially limited by game stats. So I would agree that a book is going to overrule a stat if there is a contradiction


Chee tells us gameplay considerations diminish a source's authority in comparison to other c canon material. The narrative, the story takes precedent. So, things like rpg stats, or gameplay mechanics will always be on a lower footing because they arent purely made with the story in mind, concessions were made so that the game plays properly and is entertaining. With this idea in mind, lets move on to G vs C. And I again refer you to Chee:

GL is certainly not bound by the EU, though he's certainly open to using things created in it (Aayla Secura and the Coruscant name, for example). On the other hand, the quote you provide makes it sound like the EU is separate from George's vision of the Star Wars universe. It is not. The EU must follow certain tenets set by George through the films and other guidelines that he provides outside of the films.


Chee notes that the EU is not separate from Lucas' vision 
and that it must follow certain tenets provided by Lucas. What this is telling us is that Lucas' vision takes precedent in terms of the narrative/story, over the rest of the EU. And this is the reason G canon exists as a separate tier. Content created by Lucas(G canon) is higher up on the totem pole because Lucas's vision for star wars is generally more important than the vision of EU authors. So if we agree with this premise, that Lucas's vision is what's important, then it follows that C canon content Lucas has personally and rigorously screened should have authority equal to G canon. And the RotS Adult Novel is exactly that. Stover had personally talked with Lucas to discuss story points on the novel, and more importantly, Lucas line edited the novel, ensuring its content accurately reflected his vision. So in this specific instance, the RotS Adult Novel being "C canon" is more or less functionally irrelevant,(though technically the Adult novel is more a G/C hybrid, as some content did originate from Lucas), it accurately reflects Lucas's vision and will, which is the actual reason G canon is placed higher than C canon within the holocron in the first place. Now that that's out of the way, let me actually start directly addressing your points

*Note the holocron's tier system was never intended to be some sort of infallible gospel where G canon would always win out over C canon. Exceptions exist, and I've provided a case for one here. Your blind adherence to Chee's guidelines that lacks an understanding of the actual reasons for the guidelines being the way they are comes across as foolishly dogmatic.

GILLARD TIERS


Disregarded since Jedi Anakin is explicitly confirmed as an 8 by Gillard, only reaching 9 when giving into the darkside. Plus G-canon overrides C-Canon.



Gillard says of things in a lot of places. Interestingly, if you look in the instances where he speaks while under Lucas's thumb in G canon products, like the RotS DVD Commentary/The making of The Revenge of the Sith, he only ever calls Anakin a 9. No other distinction is made. It's only when he leaves Lucas's nest, like in the Insider Interview, that you see him call Anakin an 8. Remember what I said earlier in the other thread, about how Gillard is notoriously inconsistent(or in my personal pov, retarded)? This applies here. He's not operating under the "G canon" umbrella that is movie content like he is in the RotS DVD commentary. His comments in the Insider Interview are not automatically G canon. Which means we have to ask ourselves if Gillard is a reliable proxy for Lucas's will. And as I said in my other post, his numerous inconsistencies makes the answer to that question a solid no. So ignoring for an instant that I've just written a case for the irrelevance of C/G canon distinctions when it comes to the Adult Novel, it doesn't logically follow that Gillard calling Jedi Anakin an 8 is G canon anyways, leaving you without your supposed "trump card". But ofc, I did just write a case for the irrelevance or G/C canon distinctions when it comes to the Adult Novel, and have established that it's Lucas's will that is actually important here. And the Adult Novel is almost certainly a more reliable proxy for Lucas's will than Gillard, as the former was line edited by the big G himself, and the latter says whatever he feels like when he's away from the nest. So really, if there's any contradictions between Gillard calling Anakin an 8 and the evidence I provide from the adult novel, probability favors my case. To reiterate what I said earlier, Lucas greenlit the universal consensus among the IU sources in the Adult novel putting Anakin as the number 1 Jedi combatively. Going "muh Gillard" isn't a license to disregard this evidence

Onto your next point


IU opinions aren't evidence, otherwise Grievous>Yoda. Plus G-canon overrides C-Canon.


I'm sorry...what? IU opinions aren't evidence? Since when? There's nothing in the HOLOCRON indicating this is the case. IU opinions are inherently fallible yes, but so is every other form of evidence available to us. You actually need to explain why we should ignore the numerous and separate people all affirming Anakin/KFV as supreme. Actually, I guess you did try that, with the Grievous thing(lol), but that's nonsensical. You can find contrary quotes in anything, not simply IU opinions. If a singular contradiction warrants the dismissal of an entire evidence type, we lose 99.99% of the evidence available to us. To bring up the example you gave, preponderance of evidence favors Yoda>Grievous than the opposite, so even if I assume you're characterizing that IU opinion 100% accurately, it doesn't matter ultimately(Oh and Grievous is very plausibly Yoda tier in sabers anyways)




Compared to everyone else in the Jedi temple. Plus G-canon overrides C-Canon




Sidious is mentioned in the quote. And also that quote isn't C canon, it's G canon per Chee


Anakin was not conflicted at all in that fight, which is an AU interpretation anyway.


Yes, because an Anakin who's being forced to fight a member of his "family" to defend another person he views as "family" is certainly going to be crystal clear yeah. No emotional hindrances going on here here folks. Not at all. Nothing...yeah, let's go with that



All the evidence is from C-canon sources which are garbage.

And Lucas would have mentioned Anakin couldn't beat the Emperor because of his mental instability, but he didn't. Your claim is baseless.



Almost everything you said there was wrong. I didn't only cite C canon sources, the databank quote is G and the adult novel is a C/G hybrid. These sources are certainly not garbage, at least relative to the standard you're setting by citing Gillard. And Lucas doesnt provide any reason at all for Anakin not being able to compete with Sidious. Thinking its because Anakin is inferior to Sheev combatively is as much speculation as the idea that Anakin's mental deficiencies are the reason. If we dont use evidence beyond Lucas' words, were left with a non answer essentially. All we know is that Anakin cant compete with Sheev, we dont know why. And the why is essential to your claim that Zonakin cant beat Yoda because he loses to Sidious.


Last edited by KingofBlades on February 9th 2021, 4:10 pm; edited 2 times in total
DarthAnt66
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February 9th 2021, 3:30 pm
@HeartoftheForce wrote:It was a forum Q&A actually.

Unless there's another line I don't know about, the tier 8 quote comes from my emails.
The lord of hunger
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AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda

February 9th 2021, 5:10 pm
nice
iamthatguy
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February 9th 2021, 8:23 pm
Gillard says of things in a lot of places. Interestingly, if you look in the instances where he speaks while under Lucas's thumb in G canon products, like the RotS DVD Commentary/The making of The Revenge of the Sith, he only ever calls Anakin a 9. No other distinction is made.

It's a good thing distinctions are made in other quotes then.

It's only when he leaves Lucas's nest, like in the Insider Interview, that you see him call Anakin an 8. Remember what I said earlier in the other thread, about how Gillard is notoriously inconsistent(or in my personal pov, retarded)? This applies here. He's not operating under the "G canon" umbrella that is movie content like he is in the RotS DVD commentary. His comments in the Insider Interview are not automatically G canon. Which means we have to ask ourselves if Gillard is a reliable proxy for Lucas's will. And as I said in my other post, his numerous inconsistencies makes the answer to that question a solid no.

So your argument for Jedi Anakin not being an 8 is that Gillard's a dumbass?? More convincing than Vael's argument I must say, but I don't really think Gillard contradicts himself that much, at least nowhere near as much as Lucas does.

So ignoring for an instant that I've just written a case for the irrelevance of C/G canon distinctions when it comes to the Adult Novel, it doesn't logically follow that Gillard calling Jedi Anakin an 8 is G canon anyways, leaving you without your supposed "trump card". But ofc, I did just write a case for the irrelevance or G/C canon distinctions when it comes to the Adult Novel, and have established that it's Lucas's will that is actually important here.

Yeah but you haven't proven how Gillard isn't an extension of Lucas' will. What reason would he have to lie about Anakin being an 8 at the start and 9 when using the darkside?

And the Adult Novel is almost certainly a more reliable proxy for Lucas's will than Gillard, as the former was line edited by the big G himself, and the latter says whatever he feels like when he's away from the nest. So really, if there's any contradictions between Gillard calling Anakin an 8 and the evidence I provide from the adult novel, probability favors my case. To reiterate what I said earlier, Lucas greenlit the universal consensus among the IU sources in the Adult novel putting Anakin as the number 1 Jedi combatively. Going "muh Gillard" isn't a license to disregard this evidence

I didn't know the adult novel explicitly said Anakin is a tier 9...

I'm sorry...what? IU opinions aren't evidence? Since when?

Since Grievous could beat Yoda according to Windu.

There's nothing in the HOLOCRON indicating this is the case. IU opinions are inherently fallible yes, but so is every other form of evidence available to us.

Yup, they are. Which is why I disregard them. OOU are pretty much infallible unless contradicted or retconned. The only thing IU that matters are feats.

You actually need to explain why we should ignore the numerous and separate people all affirming Anakin/KFV as supreme. Actually, I guess you did try that, with the Grievous thing(lol), but that's nonsensical.


Please elaborate on how it's nonsensical. Windu makes it clear Grievous would beat every Jedi except Obi Wan, only because he is the counter to Grievous' form.

You can find contrary quotes in anything, not simply IU opinions.

Of course you can, but IU opinions have proven time and time again to be downright incorrect.

If a singular contradiction warrants the dismissal of an entire evidence type, we lose 99.99% of the evidence available to us.

That's definitely some kind of logical fallacy.

To bring up the example you gave, preponderance of evidence favors Yoda>Grievous than the opposite, so even if I assume you're characterizing that IU opinion 100% accurately, it doesn't matter ultimately(Oh and Grievous is very plausibly Yoda tier in sabers anyways)

Considering Maul easily beat Grievous in sabers in an off panel fight, yeah nah, he's not Yoda tier.

Dooku was possessed by Talzin and fought Sidious, while Maul easily drove Grievous away.

Source: The Official Star Wars Fact File Remake #070


Sidious is mentioned in the quote. And also that quote isn't C canon, it's G canon per Chee

Pretty sure all it said was Vader swept through the temple with his unparalleled force abilities.

Yes, because an Anakin who's being forced to fight a member of his "family" to defend another person he views as "family" is certainly going to be crystal clear yeah. No emotional hindrances going on here here folks. Not at all. Nothing...yeah, let's go with that

I mean, have you listened to the dialogue in the cutscenes? Anakin doesn't seem to have remorse. He's about as remorseful as he was during operation knightfall.

Almost everything you said there was wrong. I didn't only cite C canon sources, the databank quote is G and the adult novel is a C/G hybrid.

One source, which only compares Vader to others in the temple.

These sources are certainly not garbage, at least relative to the standard you're setting by citing Gillard.

Gillard hardly contradicts himself as much as someone like Lucas, who is apparently the basis of the whole "Anakin is > Sidious" argument. I can do the same thing and just deny your entire argument based on the notion that Lucas is a moron who can't make up his mind.

And Lucas doesnt provide any reason at all for Anakin not being able to compete with Sidious. Thinking its because Anakin is inferior to Sheev combatively is as much speculation as the idea that Anakin's mental deficiencies are the reason.

Who's to say Anakin's mental state would have changed after Mustafar? Hell, it might even be worse since he would have actually killed Obi-Wan, his surrogate brother, along with his wife. It's so obviously referring to power.

Furthermore, it's referring to power because it directly mentions the reason Anakin cannot beat Sidious anymore: because he was burned. He lost his potential, and he couldn't grow to beat Sidious, he was locked beneath him.

If we dont use evidence beyond Lucas' words, were left with a non answer essentially. All we know is that Anakin cant compete with Sheev, we dont know why. And the why is essential to your claim that Zonakin cant beat Yoda because he loses to Sidious.

I'm not saying Anakin can't compete with Sidious or Yoda; he obviously can. But he is not beating either, not just because of his lack of mastery and knowledge, but because he's slightly below in raw power as well.
KingofBlades
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AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda

February 10th 2021, 1:50 am
It seems you're once again mistaken as to what I'm arguing as well as how our methodology works. No worries though, it's alot to know so I wouldn't expect you to have mastered it so quickly.  I'll guide you through it. Let's begin:

GILLARD AND LUCAS
I'm not arguing we should ignore Gillard because he's retarded(though I do think that), I'm arguing we should ignore him because his myriad inconsistencies make him an inaccurate stand in for Lucas's vision/will. But before we go any further there, it seems we have to take a step back and address why we should listen to Lucas at all, since he has also made contrary remarks before. 


The fundamental distinction to be noted is this; per LFL, Lucas's comments have G canon authority, which as I've established earlier, indicates his words possess authority greater than lesser C canon sources. A premise you seem to endorse, mind you, since you've argued G canon material automatically overrides C canon material. What is so special about this premise though, is that George is the only such author whose words are given canonical authority within the Holocron system. If you're an author, but your name isn't George Lucas, your words have no canonical authority within LFL's policy. This distinction is enormous. It means that unless we think Gillard's words are backed by Lucas, they possess no binding canonical authority per LFL, they're just another author quote. Well something less than an author quote, since Gillard plays only a small part in the production proccess and has no say in the editing room. The only reason debaters have ever cared about Gillard is that we thought he was a valid proxy for Lucas, take that away and he's basically worthless. Which is where his inconsistencies come in. He's stated in one instance that AotC Anakin is a tier 5, then says he's a tier 7 in another. He's said TPM Maul is a tier 8 but has also said he gets creamed by AotC Anakin. He's called Mace a 9 and an 8. These inconsistencies make it impossible for us to safely assume Lucas agrees with him. And if we can no longer safely assume Gillard's comments are Lucas backed, then his comments lose the only thing that gave them value in the first place. This is distinctly different from Lucas's personal inconsistencies. In Lucas's case, his words are canon by default, and any inconsistencies that arise are sorted out by LFL. But in Gillard's case, his words aren't canon by default, he needs to be backed by Lucas for them to matter, and his inconsistencies make it impossible for us to safely conclude that is the case. Thus, Gillard calling Anakin a tier 8 in an Insider Interview is not canonically binding.


I didn't know the adult novel explicitly said Anakin is a tier 9…



What? If the adult novel holds Anakin as the #1 Jedi combatively, then that contradicts Anakin supposedly being a tier 8 since Yoda is a tier 9. And you know this, since you contested me saying "[Lucas]All the while greenlighting pretty much all IU sources concluding Anakin is the most powerful Jedi combatively" with the Tier 8 quote. 




Since Grievous could beat Yoda according to Windu



Citation? If you're talking about the quote I think you're talking about, Windu only says Kenobi has the best shot at beating Grievous, not that he has the only shot. Also note Windu is trying to encourage a Kenobi who was doubting himself, it stands to reason he might stretch the truth a bit to stop any doubt from infecting Kenobi's resolve.



Yup, they are. Which is why I disregard them. OOU are pretty much infallible unless contradicted or retconned. The only thing IU that matters are feats



Citation needed for OOU quotes being infallible. Chee rejects the notion "infallible" evidence since it necessarily restricts authors of future content



Of course you can, but IU opinions have proven time and time again to be downright incorrect.




I can likewise find many OOU quotes that have been proven time and time again to be downright incorrect


That's definitely some kind of logical fallacy.



No it isn't, I'm simply extending your logic to it's conclusion. You dismissed the validity of IU opinions as a whole on the basis of a single apparently incorrect quote. I can extend this logic beyond IU opinions, if another evidence type, say OOU quotes, has a single error or contradiction, we can reject it, per your logic. And I assure you, such contradictions do exist.  I could go through the whole list but we'd be here a while. You don't happen to have a free schedule the rest of this week do you?


Considering Maul easily beat Grievous in sabers in an off panel fight, yeah nah, he's not Yoda tier.



Show me where in that quote you sent that Maul beats Grievous via sabers.


Pretty sure all it said was Vader swept through the temple with his unparalleled force abilities.



Sidious is mentioned in the sentence prior.


Darth Vader databank, Star Wars official website
Palpatine elevated himself to the position of Emperor, and dispatched Vader as his ultimate enforcer. With his unparalleled Force abilities, Vader swept through the Jedi Temple.




I mean, have you listened to the dialogue in the cutscenes? Anakin doesn't seem to have remorse. He's about as remorseful as he was during operation knightfall.



I could be wrong, but I don't recall KFV collapsing to his knees in utter horror over his actions. And if we allow other adaptations to inform us on the context of this particular scene, the adult novel establishes that the metaphorical Dragon, the source of his emotional hindrances, is at it's peak right around the time of the Windu fight


Gillard hardly contradicts himself as much as someone like Lucas, who is apparently the basis of the whole "Anakin is > Sidious" argument. I can do the same thing and just deny your entire argument based on the notion that Lucas is a moron who can't make up his mind.



Gillard and Lucas don't play by the same rules. Lucas contradicts himself and his words are still canon, LFL just has to go in and sort out the contradictions. Gillard contradicts himself and he loses the basis for us caring about his comments. You're also, once again, mischaracterizing my argument. Lucas isn't the basis for Anakin>Sidious, the evidence exists independent of him. If we take away Lucas as you're suggesting,(though it should be noted that you can't do this if we're adhering to LFL policy) the case for Anakin>Sidious/Yoda doesn't get weaker, if anything it gets stronger.


Who's to say Anakin's mental state would have changed after Mustafar? Hell, it might even be worse since he would have actually killed Obi-Wan, his surrogate brother, along with his wife. It's so obviously referring to power.

Furthermore, it's referring to power because it directly mentions the reason Anakin cannot beat Sidious anymore: because he was burned. He lost his potential, and he couldn't grow to beat Sidious, he was locked beneath him..



Please tell me how Lucas is referencing power there when he's also said Anakin is "as strong" as the emperor


I'm not saying Anakin can't compete with Sidious or Yoda; he obviously can. But he is not beating either, not just because of his lack of mastery and knowledge, but because he's slightly below in raw power as well



I'm confused why you think Anakin can compete with them under your logic. Did Lucas not say Anakin can't compete with Sidious? Or did I miss something?

To recap: Our debate was a G canon Anakin vs Yoda debate

[Redacted]

I've tried to keep this discussion centered on the intricacies of LFL's canon policies so that it would be informative for you, but given there was an actual vs debate going on, I had to leave out alot of general info. If you have any questions on LFL policy, feel free to ask myself or Darthant66 AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda - Page 3 1289255181


Last edited by KingofBlades on February 10th 2021, 1:05 pm; edited 2 times in total
Vaelias
Vaelias

AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda

February 10th 2021, 9:26 am
@KingofBlades

He thinks all of the Anakin supremacy quotes are referring to potential as are the Lucas quotes referring to Anakin, for some retarded reason. I've tried to tell him but he cant read  AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda - Page 3 3363707401
KingofBlades
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AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda

February 10th 2021, 12:43 pm
What the fuck, just noticed my conclusion still didn't paste properly:nygax:. Will be fixed momentarily
KingofBlades
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February 10th 2021, 1:50 pm
Ok wasn't able to fix it, so I'll just put what was supposed to be in the [redacted] section here:

"Your argument rests on a single Gillard quote and a single Lucas quote" I've established that Gillard is an unreliable proxy for Lucas, making his comment that Jedi Anakin is a tier 8 not canoncically binding. Your Lucas quote lacks the essential reasoning as to why Anakin can't compete with Sidious. You suggest the context is power, but I find that interpretation extremely unlikely, as Lucas has gone on record stating Anakin was "as strong" as the Emperor prior to his defeat on Mustafar. 

My argument is supported by the fact that Lucas rigorously screened and greenlighted the RotS Adult Novel which has so many Anakin supremacy quotes you might trip over one. It's supported by Lucas apparently writing a quote that has Anakin wielding unparalleled abilities in a passage that includes Palpatine. It's supported by Lucas greenlighting Pre Sith Anakin(hindered or not) throttling the same Mace Windu that can equal/disarm sheev in sabers. At the end of the day, my evidence exceeds yours in both quantity and quality. We could switch to c canon if you want, but that would only make things worse for you"
iamthatguy
iamthatguy

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February 18th 2021, 12:43 am
@Vaelias wrote:@KingofBlades

He thinks all of the Anakin supremacy quotes are referring to potential as are the Lucas quotes referring to Anakin, for some retarded reason. I've tried to tell him but he cant read  AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda - Page 3 3363707401

Because Jedi Anakin is explicitly called a tier 8 by Gillard, therefore he cannot be above Yoda/Sidious/Windu. It's common sense.
iamthatguy
iamthatguy

AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda - Page 3 Empty Re: AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda

February 18th 2021, 1:03 am
It seems you're once again mistaken as to what I'm arguing as well as how our methodology works. No worries though, it's alot to know so I wouldn't expect you to have mastered it so quickly.  I'll guide you through it. Let's begin:

GILLARD AND LUCAS
I'm not arguing we should ignore Gillard because he's retarded(though I do think that), I'm arguing we should ignore him because his myriad inconsistencies make him an inaccurate stand in for Lucas's vision/will. But before we go any further there, it seems we have to take a step back and address why we should listen to Lucas at all, since he has also made contrary remarks before. 


The fundamental distinction to be noted is this; per LFL, Lucas's comments have G canon authority, which as I've established earlier, indicates his words possess authority greater than lesser C canon sources. A premise you seem to endorse, mind you, since you've argued G canon material automatically overrides C canon material. What is so special about this premise though, is that George is the only such author whose words are given canonical authority within the Holocron system. If you're an author, but your name isn't George Lucas, your words have no canonical authority within LFL's policy. This distinction is enormous. It means that unless we think Gillard's words are backed by Lucas, they possess no binding canonical authority per LFL, they're just another author quote. Well something less than an author quote, since Gillard plays only a small part in the production proccess and has no say in the editing room. The only reason debaters have ever cared about Gillard is that we thought he was a valid proxy for Lucas, take that away and he's basically worthless. Which is where his inconsistencies come in.

I agree, which is why I try to make do with his inconsistencies.

He's stated in one instance that AotC Anakin is a tier 5, then says he's a tier 7 in another.

I assumed base AOTC Anakin was tier 5, while FoB Anakin was tier 7.

He's said TPM Maul is a tier 8 but has also said he gets creamed by AotC Anakin.

To be fair, he said that a while ago, while he more recently called Maul an 8.

He's called Mace a 9 and an 8.

I assumed office Windu was the 9, and regular Windu was an 8.

These inconsistencies make it impossible for us to safely assume Lucas agrees with him. And if we can no longer safely assume Gillard's comments are Lucas backed, then his comments lose the only thing that gave them value in the first place. This is distinctly different from Lucas's personal inconsistencies. In Lucas's case, his words are canon by default, and any inconsistencies that arise are sorted out by LFL. But in Gillard's case, his words aren't canon by default, he needs to be backed by Lucas for them to matter, and his inconsistencies make it impossible for us to safely conclude that is the case. Thus, Gillard calling Anakin a tier 8 in an Insider Interview is not canonically binding.

Pretty sure G-Canon is anything related to the movies.  Meaning that Gillard calling Jedi Anakin a tier 8 during ROTS means it is also G-Canon.

What? If the adult novel holds Anakin as the #1 Jedi combatively, then that contradicts Anakin supposedly being a tier 8 since Yoda is a tier 9. And you know this, since you contested me saying "[Lucas]All the while greenlighting pretty much all IU sources concluding Anakin is the most powerful Jedi combatively" with the Tier 8 quote. 

I was being sarcastic.

Citation? If you're talking about the quote I think you're talking about, Windu only says Kenobi has the best shot at beating Grievous, not that he has the only shot. Also note Windu is trying to encourage a Kenobi who was doubting himself, it stands to reason he might stretch the truth a bit to stop any doubt from infecting Kenobi's resolve.

You're forgetting that Sheev was also stroking Anakin's ego by saying he has unparalleled skills to all sith before him (not that I disagree).

Citation needed for OOU quotes being infallible. Chee rejects the notion "infallible" evidence since it necessarily restricts authors of future content

I can likewise find many OOU quotes that have been proven time and time again to be downright incorrect

By OOU, I mean G-canon.  Not all OOU sources.

No it isn't, I'm simply extending your logic to it's conclusion. You dismissed the validity of IU opinions as a whole on the basis of a single apparently incorrect quote. I can extend this logic beyond IU opinions, if another evidence type, say OOU quotes, has a single error or contradiction, we can reject it, per your logic. And I assure you, such contradictions do exist.  I could go through the whole list but we'd be here a while. You don't happen to have a free schedule the rest of this week do you?[/quote]

There are much, much more incorrect quotes IU than OOU.  Besides, by OOU I meant G-Canon, so even if he is wrong, there has to be a way to make it right.

Show me where in that quote you sent that Maul beats Grievous via sabers.

Because it says Maul "drove" back Grievous, which means it was a gradual process, whereas the force would have been sudden.

Also in the comic, you see the beginning and end of their fight, where they both had sabers.  Only after Talzin was disarmed by Sidious does Maul use the force.

Sidious is mentioned in the sentence prior.

Darth Vader databank, Star Wars official website
Palpatine elevated himself to the position of Emperor, and dispatched Vader as his ultimate enforcer. With his unparalleled Force abilities, Vader swept through the Jedi Temple.

I know that, but It doesn't apply to Sidious since Vader's abilities were only unparalleled within the temple.

I mean, have you listened to the dialogue in the cutscenes? Anakin doesn't seem to have remorse. He's about as remorseful as he was during operation knightfall.

I could be wrong, but I don't recall KFV collapsing to his knees in utter horror over his actions. And if we allow other adaptations to inform us on the context of this particular scene, the adult novel establishes that the metaphorical Dragon, the source of his emotional hindrances, is at it's peak right around the time of the Windu fight.

That was after the fight, after he realized what he had done.  Hence the "what have I done".

Gillard and Lucas don't play by the same rules. Lucas contradicts himself and his words are still canon, LFL just has to go in and sort out the contradictions. Gillard contradicts himself and he loses the basis for us caring about his comments. You're also, once again, mischaracterizing my argument. Lucas isn't the basis for Anakin>Sidious, the evidence exists independent of him. If we take away Lucas as you're suggesting,(though it should be noted that you can't do this if we're adhering to LFL policy) the case for Anakin>Sidious/Yoda doesn't get weaker, if anything it gets stronger.

Again, don't see why they don't play by the same rules.  G-canon refers to the movies, which Gillard was apart of.

Please tell me how Lucas is referencing power there when he's also said Anakin is "as strong" as the emperor

Because in the other quote, he was comparing Anakin and Sidious on the basis of potential.  The whole context of the quote revolves around Sith finding somebody who would become more powerful than themselves.

I'm confused why you think Anakin can compete with them under your logic. Did Lucas not say Anakin can't compete with Sidious? Or did I miss something?

To recap: Our debate was a G canon Anakin vs Yoda debate

Lucas meant competing in the sense that they have a chance of winning, Anakin doesn't. Anakin will give Sidious hell, but he doesn't have a chance of winning in a non-circumstantial fight.

I've tried to keep this discussion centered on the intricacies of LFL's canon policies so that it would be informative for you, but given there was an actual vs debate going on, I had to leave out alot of general info. If you have any questions on LFL policy, feel free to ask myself or Darthant66 AoTC Yoda vs ROTS Yoda - Page 3 1289255181

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