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S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 Empty Re: Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus

on December 30th 2020, 7:35 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@AUDITOR wrote:
Greetings Blade! Glad to see you too! Actually we already started to compare feats of sub Malgus characters to Vader's and shared moments of "gesturing" Nox and Palpatine by Malgus and Vader. So scaling is already in use. The point is that I actually think both Vader's feats and scaling are above Malgus. I made an investigation about his power level and even after all SW legends' arguements I am sure that canon Vader had far more dangerous situations and better battle feats than Malgus. If we are taking scaling than Vader>KFV(who purged JT same way as he had done it in legends) >Dooku(who scales to Yoda same way as in legends who:https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Star-Wars-2015/Issue-30?id=109207)>Maul(his Venator feat, ragdolling Kenobi feat, lightsaber duel with Palpatine feat). What is even more impressive: Vader tanked same lightning which Rey in ROS with power of all jedi https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader/Issue-6?id=176610 while being in his worst condition.

Hmm. Let us get to the bottom of this.

1. A large number of fans have grown accustomed to debating and scrutinizing LEGENDS continuity characters through the years, and have not considered cross-continuity evaluations insofar. Admittedly this is true for me as well. It will take a while to adjust to cross-continuity evaluations - few years give or take.

2. You are hyping Darth Vader's feats with "obscure semantics" and not highlighting much of the context shaping them. The earthquake feat for instance which was addressed by honorable @Galan007 in his post.

3. It is clearly established that Darth Vader's body armor is more resistant to external threats in the CANON continuity than in the LEGENDS continuity - his body armor in the CANON continuity feature 10 layers of armoring and enables him to traverse LAVA as well as absorb more powerful explosions than what was possible for him in the LEGENDS continuity. Darth Malgus also wear a body armor but it is not like that of Darth Vader in the CANON continuity and much of the former's tolerance to lethal stuff is contingent upon his ability to use the Force to shape his defenses all along. There is a reason why Palpatine asserts in his Book of Anger that Darth Malgus's battlefield feats were never duplicated in the LEGENDS continuity. Darth Vader (CANON) is not being stress-tested in the ways of the Force to same extent as Darth Malgus (LEGENDS) in comparison courtesy of his remarkably durable body armor which covers him from head to toe.

4. Darth Vader's tanking of the Malachor explosion is impressive no doubt but it didn't even bust the building. So what kind of energy this is? This is important consideration.

For comparison, I highlighted Darth Malgus's ability to live through experiences of the False Emperor flashpoint in which he was thrown into the REACTOR of a massive space station below (this should be sufficient to kill even a much powerful Force-user - recall Palpatine's ordeal in the Battle of Endor?). And the space station itself self-destructed in the vacuum of space. If not the reactor than this particular instance of explosion should kill a much powerful Force-user but Darth Malgus could still be retrieved from the wreckage.

So to recap. Darth Vader tanked the Malachor explosion which didn't even bust the building, and he was on the planet while this happened - this is not the same as enduring an explosion which reduced a massive space station into a pile of wreckage in the vacuum of space that in itself should kill a Force-user. These are two entirely different set of experiences to deal with.

5. Darth Vader's feat of destroying an AT-AT is also an impressive feat (comparable to Luke Skywalker's feat in the Dark Empire saga of the LEGENDS continuity).

But Darth Malgus wouldn't have trouble dealing with an AT-AT either given the fact that he can affect and shred far bigger machines with his telekinetics.

6. I have spent some time trying to understand what is shown about The Ender in relevant comics and my view insofar is that this creature was up against a civilization of dwarfs - living beings much smaller than humans. The Ender is not a Kaiju as per human standards.

RECHECK:

@S_W_LeGenD wrote:
@AUDITOR wrote:
And I still think Ender is much bigger than Krayt dragon and much stronger.

Narrow down your focus to this scan in particular:

Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 16

On the right, you can see Darth Vader fitting into the hand of the creature just fine. On the left, you can see creature's hand colliding with the building shoving Darth Vader into it. The Sith Lord covers 3 - 4 floors in height. This is FIRST indication of the fact that this was a civilization of dwarfs - much shorter than humans.

And when a standard issue Star Destroyer came to the region later, the onlooker felt that it was as large as the ruined city. This is SECOND indication. I am not sure why you still fail to see the obvious. Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 1220391476

The author provided a sense of scaling like two or three times in the comics but so many fell for the visual tricks. It cannot be that Darth Vader is that big in comparison to the creature in each scan and the buildings are also true skyscrapers in the mix. Logical consideration is that this was a civilization of dwarfs and the Ender is not a Kaiju as per human standards.

There are creatures in Star Wars which can swallow large ships whole - These won't even feel a lightsaber and a human. Same is true for Pacific Rim Kaiju.

The argument which you have is that Darth Vader threw Palpatine around in a fit of rage after being retrofitted with his body armor. This is akin to Force Scream which is a wild expression of raw power and therefore difficult to quantify. Darth Malgus buckled an entire platform and wiped out an incoming wave of starfighters with his Force Scream decades before his perceived PRIME as of the Onslaught. In another instance, Darth Malgus collapsed an internal section of the Jedi Temple with a minor shout while fighting Jedi inside.

Darth Malgus have Force Maelstrom ability as well - something not shown on-screen YET but it should be a devastating application.

Therefore... Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 4037459623
AUDITOR
AUDITOR

Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 Empty Re: Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus

on December 30th 2020, 8:16 am
@S_W_LeGenD wrote:
@AUDITOR wrote:
Greetings Blade! Glad to see you too! Actually we already started to compare feats of sub Malgus characters to Vader's and shared moments of "gesturing" Nox and Palpatine by Malgus and Vader. So scaling is already in use. The point is that I actually think both Vader's feats and scaling are above Malgus. I made an investigation about his power level and even after all SW legends' arguements I am sure that canon Vader had far more dangerous situations and better battle feats than Malgus. If we are taking scaling than Vader>KFV(who purged JT same way as he had done it in legends) >Dooku(who scales to Yoda same way as in legends who:https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Star-Wars-2015/Issue-30?id=109207)>Maul(his Venator feat, ragdolling Kenobi feat, lightsaber duel with Palpatine feat). What is even more impressive: Vader tanked same lightning which Rey in ROS with power of all jedi https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader/Issue-6?id=176610 while being in his worst condition.

Hmm. Let us get to the bottom of this.

1. A large number of fans have grown accustomed to debating and scrutinizing LEGENDS continuity characters through the years, and have not considered cross-continuity evaluations insofar. Admittedly this is true for me as well. It will take a while to adjust to cross-continuity evaluations - few years give or take.

2. You are hyping Darth Vader's feats with "obscure semantics" and not highlighting much of the context shaping them. The earthquake feat for instance which was addressed by honorable @Galan007 in his post.

3. It is clearly established that Darth Vader's body armor is more resistant to external threats in the CANON continuity than in the LEGENDS continuity - his body armor in the CANON continuity feature 10 layers of armoring and enables him to traverse LAVA as well as absorb more powerful explosions that what was possible for him in the LEGENDS continuity. Darth Malgus also wear a body armor but it is not like that of Darth Vader in the CANON continuity and much of the former's tolerance to lethal stuff is contingent upon his ability to use the Force to shape his defenses all along. There is a reason why Palpatine asserts in his Book of Anger that Darth Malgus's battlefield feats were never duplicated in the LEGENDS continuity. Darth Vader (CANON) is not being stress-tested in the ways of the Force to same extent as Darth Malgus (LEGENDS) in comparison courtesy of his remarkably durable body armor which covers him from head to toe.

4. Darth Vader's tanking of the Malachor explosion is impressive no doubt but it didn't even bust the building. So what kind of energy this is? This is important consideration.

For comparison, I highlighted Darth Malgus's ability to live through experiences of the False Emperor flashpoint in which he was thrown into the REACTOR of a massive space station below (this should be sufficient to kill even a much powerful Force-user - recall Palpatine's ordeal in the Battle of Endor?). And the space station itself self-destructed in the vacuum of space. If not the reactor than this particular instance of explosion should kill a much powerful Force-user but Darth Malgus could still be retrieved from the wreckage.

So to recap. Darth Vader tanked the Malachor explosion which didn't even bust the building, and he was on the planet while this happened - this is not the same as enduring an explosion which reduced a massive space station into a pile of wreckage in the vacuum of space that in itself should kill a Force-user. These are two entirely different set of experiences to deal with.

5. Darth Vader's feat of destroying an AT-AT is also an impressive feat (comparable to Luke Skywalker's feat in the Dark Empire saga of the LEGENDS continuity).

But Darth Malgus wouldn't have trouble dealing with an AT-AT either given the fact that he can affect and shred far bigger machines with his telekinetics.

6. I have spent some time trying to understand what is shown about The Ender in relevant comics and my view insofar is that this creature was up against a civilization of dwarfs - living beings much smaller than humans. The Ender is not a Kaiju as per human standards.

RECHECK:

@S_W_LeGenD wrote:
@AUDITOR wrote:
And I still think Ender is much bigger than Krayt dragon and much stronger.

Narrow down your focus to this scan in particular:

Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 16

On the right, you can see Darth Vader fitting into the hand of the creature just fine. On the left, you can see creature's hand colliding with the building shoving Darth Vader into it. The Sith Lord covers 3 - 4 floors in height. This is FIRST indication of the fact that this was a civilization of dwarfs - much shorter than humans.

And when a standard issue Star Destroyer came to the region later, the onlooker felt that it was as large as the ruined city. This is SECOND indication. I am not sure why you still fail to see the obvious. Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 1220391476

The author provided a sense of scaling like two or three times in the comics but so many fell for the visual tricks. It cannot be that Darth Vader is that big in comparison to the creature in each scan and the buildings are also true skyscrapers in the mix. Logical consideration is that this was a civilization of dwarfs and the Ender is not a Kaiju as per human standards.

There are creatures in Star Wars which can swallow large ships whole - These won't even feel a lightsaber and a human. Same is true for Pacific Rim Kaiju.

The argument which you have is that Darth Vader threw Palpatine around in a fit of rage after being retrofitted with his body armor. This is akin to Force Scream which is a wild expression of raw power and therefore difficult to quantify. Darth Malgus buckled an entire platform and wiped out an incoming wave of starfighters with his Force Scream decades before his perceived PRIME as of the Onslaught. In another instance, Darth Malgus collapsed an internal section of the Jedi Temple with a minor shout while fighting Jedi inside.

Darth Malgus have Force Maelstrom ability as well - something not shown on-screen YET but it should be a devastating application.

Therefore... Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 4037459623
First of all I want to finish our conversation about Ender. Yeah, you had proven your point of view well, and due to people's point of view it is definitely not Godzilla, but I still think that it is far stronger and bigger than K dragon and that legend's monster. Also, AT AT, definitely not his best feat. It is just most interesting to watch Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 2266747095 . His best shown feats are his tsunami feat, moncala deep diving and JFO feat(where he pulls the water out). I cannot send scan, using mobile version of browser, but these feats are far above AT AT feat and both a long pre prime. You also ignored his Palpatine lightning feat, which is really impressive and clearly showes what he can handle with his armor and physical strength when it comes to force powers(and again, in a point of time when he was in a weakest condition). Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 39523600
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 Empty Re: Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus

on December 30th 2020, 8:25 am
@AUDITOR wrote:
First of all I want to finish our conversation about Ender. Yeah, you had proven your point of view well, and due to people's point of view it is definitely not Godzilla, but I still think that it is far stronger and bigger than K dragon and that legend's monster. Also, AT AT, definitely not his best feat. It is just most interesting to watch Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 2266747095 . His best shown feats are his tsunami feat, moncala deep diving and JFO feat(where he pulls the water out). I cannot send scan, using mobile version of browser, but these feats are far above AT AT feat and both a long pre prime. You also ignored his Palpatine lightning feat, which is really impressive and clearly showes what he can handle with his armor and physical strength when it comes to force powers(and again, in a point of time when he was in a weakest condition). Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 39523600

Well, thanks for these insights. Admittedly, it will take a while to understand CANON characters and see them in all fairness.

I would say that cross-continuity comparisons are premature for many fans at this stage because CANON have a much different take on numerous themes and issues. Cheers. Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 228124001
AUDITOR
AUDITOR

Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 Empty Re: Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus

on December 30th 2020, 2:33 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Agree with you. Canon need to be expanded or take old republic as part of it. See no problems with this kind of decision for Disney. We know to small part of SW history in canon and not enough characters from other ages to make an intersting and useful scaling for characters(one of the reason why I tried to not use scaling here, because even if legends characters don't capable to replicate canon feats, scaling can proof that they or can or strong enough to resist.)
P.S.
It was nice conversation, I was glad you to discuss this topic with you))) Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 2257779481
A little gift for you...
Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 A_202021
Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 A_202011
So, after all Vader killed a KAIJU Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 4037459623
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
Level Two
Level Two

Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 Empty Re: Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus

on December 30th 2020, 3:27 pm
i do like how we have monster hunter vader now tbh
Blade_of_Dorin
Blade_of_Dorin
Level One
Level One

Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 Empty Re: Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus

on December 30th 2020, 3:40 pm
@AUDITOR wrote:
@Blade_of_Dorin wrote:@AUDITOR glad to see you made your way onto here, welcome! Why the prohibition of any kind of scaling or quotes here though? Without them, debates turn into what is basically just a game of arbitrary feat comparisons that are hardly conclusive on who’s actually better than the other, which is it what seems to be the case in this thread. It might be easier to get down to who would actually win in a fight between these two if we didn’t dismiss these things tbh.
Greetings Blade! Glad to see you too! Actually we already started to compare feats of sub Malgus characters to Vader's and shared moments of "gesturing" Nox and Palpatine by Malgus and Vader. So scaling is already in use. The point is that I actually think both Vader's feats and scaling are above Malgus. I made an investigation about his power level and even after all SW legends' arguements I am sure that canon Vader had far more dangerous situations and better battle feats than Malgus.

Ahh okay, I skimmed through the convo and saw where you said that you don’t “welcome [scaling] in this topic” and thought I should bring up why that shouldn’t be the case, but it appears that you changed your mind and are trying to implement that into the debate. Fair enough, should have read the thread more thoroughly.

If we are taking scaling than Vader>KFV(who purged JT same way as he had done it in legends) >Dooku(who scales to Yoda same way as in legends who:https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Star-Wars-2015/Issue-30?id=109207)>Maul(his Venator feat, ragdolling Kenobi feat, lightsaber duel with Palpatine feat). What is even more impressive: Vader tanked same lightning which Rey in ROS with power of all jedi https://readcomiconline.to/Comic/Star-Wars-Darth-Vader/Issue-6?id=176610 while being in his worst condition. And I still think Ender is much bigger than Krayt dragon and much stronger. wrote:

I don’t really care for cross-continuity debating, since it’s almost impossible to draw direct links/comparisons between characters, which is what debating should mainly be about. (The only way to actually draw direct links/comparisons between characters from different continuity’s is through environmental feats, which are wonky at best since environmental feats fluctuate pretty heavily by the medium). But I am curious as to how Vader scales above Knightfall Vader/Anakin, could you provide a citation? I’ve seen many canon quotes that are used to argue Anakin > Vader, but none actually hold up under scrutiny. Could you also direct me to Maul “ragdolling Kenobi” and the Venator feat (no clue what that is in all honesty)?
AUDITOR
AUDITOR

Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 Empty Re: Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus

on January 15th 2021, 3:42 pm
@Blade_of_Dorin wrote:
@AUDITOR wrote:
@Blade_of_Dorin wrote:@AUDITOR glad to see you made your way onto here, welcome! Why the prohibition of any kind of scaling or quotes here though? Without them, debates turn into what is basically just a game of arbitrary feat comparisons that are hardly conclusive on who’s actually better than the other, which is it what seems to be the case in this thread. It might be easier to get down to who would actually win in a fight between these two if we didn’t dismiss these things tbh.
Greetings Blade! Glad to see you too! Actually we already started to compare feats of sub Malgus characters to Vader's and shared moments of "gesturing" Nox and Palpatine by Malgus and Vader. So scaling is already in use. The point is that I actually think both Vader's feats and scaling are above Malgus. I made an investigation about his power level and even after all SW legends' arguements I am sure that canon Vader had far more dangerous situations and better battle feats than Malgus.

Ahh okay, I skimmed through the convo and saw where you said that you don’t “welcome [scaling] in this topic” and thought I should bring up why that shouldn’t be the case, but it appears that you changed your mind and are trying to implement that into the debate. Fair enough, should have read the thread more thoroughly.



I don’t really care for cross-continuity debating, since it’s almost impossible to draw direct links/comparisons between characters, which is what debating should mainly be about. (The only way to actually draw direct links/comparisons between characters from different continuity’s is through environmental feats, which are wonky at best since environmental feats fluctuate pretty heavily by the medium). But I am curious as to how Vader scales above Knightfall Vader/Anakin, could you provide a citation? I’ve seen many canon quotes that are used to argue Anakin > Vader, but none actually hold up under scrutiny. Could you also direct me to Maul “ragdolling Kenobi” and the Venator feat (no clue what that is in all honesty)?
Sorry, I missed your post somehow. By Venator feat I meant this:  
Also, about scaling chain. It is clear due to his feats that he is far superior in canon in comparison to his former self. He while being enraged ragdolled Palpatine, tanked Tsunami, holded with his TK ocean both in Vader 2017 and JFO(in both cases large amount of preasure was holded by him). Palpatine in Tarkin novel said next:

“Come, Darth Vader, you of all people should accept that some are born for greatness. That some are larger than life.”

Vader remained silent.

“Yes, Lord Vader—Tarkin.” Sidious softened his tone. “You are a true Sith, Lord Vader. Your dedication is unerring and your powers unparalleled. Perhaps, however, you are under the misimpression that only Sith and Jedi have trials to pass.”

We also know personal opinion about his powers after Mustafar in Lords of the Sith:

VADER COMPLETED HIS MEDITATION and opened his eyes. His pale, flame-savaged face stared back at him from out of the reflective black surface of his pressurized meditation chamber. Without the neural connection to his armor, he was conscious of the stumps of his legs, the ruin of his arm, the perpetual pain in his flesh. He welcomed it. Pain fed his hate, and hate fed his strength. Once, as a Jedi, he had meditated to find peace. Now he meditated to sharpen the edges of his anger.

He stared at his reflection a long time. His injuries had deformed his body, left it a ruin, but they’d perfected his spirit, strengthening his connection to the Force. Suffering had birthed insight.

So, at least his force powers are above Anakin's and KFV's. But I am sure of it mostly because of his feats. Anakin never accomplished anything even close to Vader's force feats. In canon we have some statements that Vader is actually the best dark side duelist, too. But I don't think that this source is really reliable:
Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 A_202110
Still, his feats assure him high position here as well. He defeated Ahsoka who during Rebels should be ~ Maul in lightsaber combat. He a long pre prime killed prime Eath Koth who while being wounded > pre prime Grievous and he also killed in duels a bunch of guys who were created to replace him. And what I think is the most interesting we have this:
Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 A_202111
Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 A_202112
This is his force vision from Vader 2015 issue 24. Someone will say that it cannot be taken as feat, but I think it has to many details of battle between them to ignore it. Also, Vader's statements after thos duel proves that he is actually far more powerful than Anakin:
Canon Vader VS Darth Malgus - Page 3 A_202113
He is confident that if he ever had to face someone with power level of Anakin Skywalker he will kill him like a child.

Pre prime Maul With his TK ragdolled Kenobi twice during this fight, once to gain advantage in position and second time to save Savage.
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