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Jedi_Jesus
Jedi_Jesus

Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP Empty Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP

on July 21st 2020, 7:48 am
I found a video that I think sums this up very well, but im curious what you all think too. Sidious is as of AOTC, Vader is prime

https://youtu.be/dQw4w9WgXcQ
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray

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on July 21st 2020, 9:25 am
F me

Anyways I could see Vader legitimatively winning this, but not confident either way
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
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on July 21st 2020, 10:34 am
vader could win


Last edited by The lord of hunger on July 23rd 2020, 4:23 pm; edited 1 time in total
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

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on July 21st 2020, 10:39 am
Sidious
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Two
Level Two

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on July 21st 2020, 2:13 pm
Sidious one shots.
Jedi_Jesus
Jedi_Jesus

Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP Empty Re: Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP

on July 21st 2020, 3:16 pm
@Latham2000 wrote:Sidious one shots.
I'm very curious why you think so
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BoD (Away)
Level Six
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on July 23rd 2020, 1:24 pm
Unless Sidious went through some gigantic growth between AOTC and ROTS, he stomps.
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

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on July 23rd 2020, 1:40 pm
It seems like they're trying to make Sidious > Vader only due to the lightning weakness in current canon.
Jedi_Jesus
Jedi_Jesus

Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP Empty Re: Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP

on July 23rd 2020, 3:44 pm
@BoD (away) wrote:Unless Sidious went through some gigantic growth between AOTC and ROTS, he stomps.

Why would that be any issue as is? We know that vader undergoes a massive margin of growth from his time learning the suit, to mastering it. 
As of the time he first dons the suit, he's already > an opponent thats > ROTS kenobi, so we know his level of power hasn't dropped to far, if at all since being hurt on mustafar. I fail to see why you think vaders level WOULDNT be on par with ROTS sheevs
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
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on July 23rd 2020, 4:03 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Canon Vader sucks honestly. I just don't see an argument for Vader here.
BigMouthPrick
BigMouthPrick

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on July 23rd 2020, 4:20 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@HellfireUnit wrote:Canon Vader sucks honestly. I just don't see an argument for Vader here.
Agree. Pre-suit Vader is the only version I could see winning against Sidious in a duel. Suited Vader is simply too vulnerable to lightning and too slow and bulky to keep up with the insane speed and precision of Sidious for an extended period of time.
Jedi_Jesus
Jedi_Jesus

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on July 23rd 2020, 4:35 pm
@HellfireUnit wrote:Canon Vader sucks honestly. I just don't see an argument for Vader here.

Not sure if lowball or if hoe.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
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on July 23rd 2020, 4:37 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@HellfireUnit wrote:Canon Vader sucks honestly. I just don't see an argument for Vader here.

Not sure if lowball or if hoe.

Truth my friend, Kylo >>> Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP 3344068304
Jedi_Jesus
Jedi_Jesus

Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP Empty Re: Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP

on July 23rd 2020, 4:47 pm
@HellfireUnit wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@HellfireUnit wrote:Canon Vader sucks honestly. I just don't see an argument for Vader here.

Not sure if lowball or if hoe.

Truth my friend, Kylo >>> Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP 3344068304


Ah now that makes some solid sense. 

Kylo> zillo beast > Vader >> Rey> Yoda?
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BoD (Away)
Level Six
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on July 23rd 2020, 7:04 pm
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@BoD (away) wrote:Unless Sidious went through some gigantic growth between AOTC and ROTS, he stomps.

Why would that be any issue as is? We know that vader undergoes a massive margin of growth from his time learning the suit, to mastering it. 
As of the time he first dons the suit, he's already > an opponent thats > ROTS kenobi, so we know his level of power hasn't dropped to far, if at all since being hurt on mustafar. I fail to see why you think vaders level WOULDNT be on par with ROTS sheevs
@Jedi_Jesus Kirak's superiority to Vader is based on a single quote that excludes Kenobi by virtue of it referring to Vader, not Anakin:

When Anakin Skywalker fell, both to the pull of the dark side and to the blade of Obi-Wan Kenobi, he rose back up, more machine than man. Having lost everything that was once dear to him, the former Chosen One must take his first steps to a darker world... as Darth Vader,

So "Vader" has never fought Kenobi, it was Anakin as far as Marvel Comics are concerned. 

Kirak's feats consist of tagging a Vader with a malfunctioning leg and completely unfamiliar body and suit and defeating an old training droid.
DarthAdi
DarthAdi

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on July 23rd 2020, 7:28 pm
@BOD (away) : The quote says that Kirak is more powerful than any jedi Vader faced before. As you know Kirak was the first jedi suited Vader fought so it would be pointless to say he was more powerful than any jedi Vader faced before if he was the first he faced. This certainly implies Kenobi was taken into consideration. 


Also, The opening crawl of Vader 1 labels him as Vader when he fought obi wan on Mustafar. 

"Jedi knight Anakin Skywalker has fallen to the darkside of the force. Swayed by Palpatines promise to help prevent the death of his pregnant wife padme, Skywalker betrayed the Jedi and became the sith lord Darth Vader. Defeated by his old friend and former master obi wan kenobi, Vader was left to die on the volcanic planet Mustafar."
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BoD (Away)
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on July 23rd 2020, 7:34 pm
The same synopsis offers a clear distinction between "Anakin" Vader and "Darth" Vader:

Retrieved by Palpatine, and placed into a suit of
cybernetic armor to preserve his life, Vader awakens to
learn that his wife has died. Now, for Darth Vader, there
is only rage, pain, and the new Galactic Empire...



Anakin died when Padme died. What's left is Vader.

Then the comic itself supports this, with Vader burying Anakin and becoming a full Sith:


Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP Rco00910 Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP Rco01013
Jedi_Jesus
Jedi_Jesus

Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP Empty Re: Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP

on July 23rd 2020, 7:57 pm
@BoD (away) wrote:The same synopsis offers a clear distinction between "Anakin" Vader and "Darth" Vader:

Retrieved by Palpatine, and placed into a suit of
cybernetic armor to preserve his life, Vader awakens to
learn that his wife has died. Now, for Darth Vader, there
is only rage, pain, and the new Galactic Empire...



Anakin died when Padme died. What's left is Vader.

Then the comic itself supports this, with Vader burying Anakin and becoming a full Sith:


Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP Rco00910 Darth Vader (Canon) VS Darth Sidious (Canon) read OP Rco01013

Not a single thing differentiates anakin and vader. "Sidious retrieves vader" is how it is worded.
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on July 23rd 2020, 10:25 pm
It draws a distinction between two mindsets: a Vader with ties to his past, and a Vader with nothing left but the Empire. The former is Anakin, the latter is Vader.

From Starwars.com:

Anakin eventually succumbed to this temptation, maiming former ally Mace Windu  to save Sidious. The dark side Master claimed the mantle of Emperor, and Anakin led the Empire’s eradication of the Jedi Order as Darth Vader , Sith Lord. Against his wishes, Padmé followed him to the lava planet Mustafar , where he had just ended the Clone War by destroying the Separatist leaders. She confronted Anakin about all he had done; the new Sith claimed that all his acts, no matter how terrible, were done so he would be strong enough with the dark side to save her. But having tasted this power, he now had greater ambitions: to overthrow the newly-minted Emperor and rule the galaxy with his wife. Padmé was repulsed, and with the appearance of Obi-Wan (who had stowed away on her ship), Anakin assumed his wife had betrayed him, and he Force choked her. Padmé was left unconscious, and Anakin and his former Master dueled. In the end, Anakin was dismembered and left with terrible burns, cursing his old friend and becoming a being of pure hate. Recovered on the banks of a lava river by the Emperor, Anakin was encased in sinister black armor that kept him alive, and he truly became Darth Vader. Padmé, having lost the will to live, died after giving birth to twins -- Luke  and Leia  -- and Anakin was left heartbroken and more machine than man. 


They once again distinguish between Anakin and Vader, calling Vader the thing that came out of Mustafar, and Anakin everything before that. This is repeated in the Darth Vader bio:

Sidious assumed the mantle of Emperor, and Vader helped the Empire destroy the Jedi Order; without mercy, Anakin led a legion of clones into the Jedi Temple , and personally killed both fully trained Jedi and novice younglings alike. On the lava planet Mustafar,  where he had been sent to assassinate Separatist leaders , Vader battled his former Master and friend, Obi-Wan Kenobi . Anakin fought with an aggressive ferocity, ignoring Obi-Wan's pleas to come to his senses. Ultimately, the Jedi Master bested the new Sith. Vader was left severely injured and burned on the banks of a lava river, filled with anger and hate. He was found by the Emperor and encased in frightening black armor that kept him alive, and given mechanical lungs that emitted an ominous breathing sound with his every step. Anakin Skywalker was no more.
Caelus Pall
Caelus Pall

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on July 25th 2020, 1:38 pm
Sidious should easily win this.
Jedi_Jesus
Jedi_Jesus

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on July 26th 2020, 7:24 pm
@Caelus Pall wrote:Sidious should easily win this.
 Why
Caelus Pall
Caelus Pall

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on July 27th 2020, 12:28 pm
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:Sidious should easily win this.
 Why


AoTC Sidious should be very close to TCW Sidious, who toyed with Maul and Savage. Vader would struggle against just Maul.
Jedi_Jesus
Jedi_Jesus

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on July 27th 2020, 12:33 pm
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:Sidious should easily win this.
 Why


AoTC Sidious should be very close to TCW Sidious, who toyed with Maul and Savage. Vader would struggle against just Maul.


Well TCW maul is confirmed to be below Prime kenobi, who is confirmed to be below kirak, who vader snapped his neck with little difficulty after basicslly dying twice from not having a lightsaber. 


Vader destroys TCW maul.


Oh, and technically per filoni, sidious was struggling from savage and maul during their duel during the beginning and middle portions


I keep adding to this, lol. 
Rebels maul is implied to be his most powerful state, and he's absolutely terrified of vader, just to add to that🤷‍�
Caelus Pall
Caelus Pall

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on July 27th 2020, 12:43 pm
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:Sidious should easily win this.
 Why


AoTC Sidious should be very close to TCW Sidious, who toyed with Maul and Savage. Vader would struggle against just Maul.


Well TCW maul is confirmed to be below Prime kenobi, who is confirmed to be below kirak, who vader snapped his neck with little difficulty after basicslly dying twice from not having a lightsaber. 


Vader destroys TCW maul.


Oh, and technically per filoni, sidious was struggling from savage and maul during their duel during the beginning and middle portions


You are confusing Vader with Anakin. The final transformation from one to the other is when he loses to Obi-Wan on Mustafar.

Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith 1 wrote:When Anakin Skywalker fell, both to the pull of the dark side and to the blade of Obi-Wan Kenobi, he rose back up, more machine than man. Having lost everything that was once dear to him, the former chosen one must take his first steps into a darker world…as Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith!
Jedi_Jesus
Jedi_Jesus

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on July 27th 2020, 12:52 pm
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:
@Jedi_Jesus wrote:
@Caelus Pall wrote:Sidious should easily win this.
 Why


AoTC Sidious should be very close to TCW Sidious, who toyed with Maul and Savage. Vader would struggle against just Maul.


Well TCW maul is confirmed to be below Prime kenobi, who is confirmed to be below kirak, who vader snapped his neck with little difficulty after basicslly dying twice from not having a lightsaber. 


Vader destroys TCW maul.


Oh, and technically per filoni, sidious was struggling from savage and maul during their duel during the beginning and middle portions


You are confusing Vader with Anakin. The final transformation from one to the other is when he loses to Obi-Wan on Mustafar.

Darth Vader: Dark Lord of the Sith 1 wrote:When Anakin Skywalker fell, both to the pull of the dark side and to the blade of Obi-Wan Kenobi, he rose back up, more machine than man. Having lost everything that was once dear to him, the former chosen one must take his first steps into a darker world…as Darth Vader, Dark Lord of the Sith!


What you provided holds merit until you consider movie canon over takes everything in terms of canon hierarchy. In ROTS, anakin is noted, by sidious, to be "henceforth lord vader" before operation knightfall. You trying to differentiate between suited vader and non suited doesn't make sense when Vader is noted in his prime overall to be post mustafar anyways. 

You cant pick and choose one or two quotes to use to try and sustain a thin argument. If i wanted to do that i could just as easily use the OOU quote from jedi fallen order that labels Vader as the most powerful sith in the galaxy, and then use the quote from star wars rebels that labels palpatime as Omnipoent. One off accolades are lower in canon than movie canon.
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