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BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Fri Dec 11, 2020 3:30 pm
@HeartoftheForce wrote:The one who was stymied by Satele Shan loses.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Sidious dragged into Chaos by a dying Jedi Knight holding him within him by force of will?
TenebrousWay
TenebrousWay

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Fri Dec 11, 2020 6:11 pm
I haven't played the new patch yet but isn't part of Valkorion's (a part that hasn't experienced the events of SWTOR) "essence" unleashed into Satele and her apprentices? The whole affair takes part inside her mind, so it's difficult to reach any conclusion about it but it looks like they aren't fighting Tenebrae in a battle of power, it looks like it's battle of willpower.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:05 pm
@TenebrousWay wrote:I haven't played the new patch yet but isn't part of Valkorion's (a part that hasn't experienced the events of SWTOR) "essence" unleashed into Satele and her apprentices? The whole affair takes part inside her mind, so it's difficult to reach any conclusion about it but it looks like they aren't fighting Tenebrae in a battle of power, it looks like it's battle of willpower.

It's a battle of power, not will. There are notable differences between when it's to do with TP (e.g. him trying to influence Vaylin) and a Force battle.
TenebrousWay
TenebrousWay

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:17 pm
How is a battle happening inside the mind of someone a "battle of power"? It's highly implied that they are 'fighting' a fragment (or echo, like the very name of the patch) of Tenebrae's essence. Marr explicitly says that Tenebrae has the knowledge of what happened but not the "experience"; he didn't live it.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Fri Dec 11, 2020 7:23 pm
How is a battle happening inside the mind of someone a "battle of power"? It's highly implied that they are 'fighting' a fragment (or echo, like the very name of the patch) of Tenebrae's essence. Marr explicitly says that Tenebrae has the knowledge of what happened but not the "experience"; he didn't live it.

Marr outright says he's as powerful as before:

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Scree167
Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Scree168

First, there'd be zero reason for this to be a plot point if it were a battle of will, not Force power. Second, Tenebrae is an "imprint" of who he was prior to Revan's time, not a fragment or an echo. How he's as strong as ever is unclear, but it's likely that the explosion of power we saw at the end of KOTET somehow filtered back and reconciled with this imprint, hence why Tenebrae claims that "it took longer than I had hoped to...recompose myself" and is as strong as ever but lacks the memories. The energy returned to him like an elastic band being cut in two, but that person he was is dead.

If you have any other questions, I'd be happy to answer.
TenebrousWay
TenebrousWay

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Fri Dec 11, 2020 8:08 pm
My point about it being a battle of will is based on the presence of three Tenebrae, each one of them can't be as powerful as a full powered Tenebrae, otherwise he'd find a way to multiply himself while preserving his full power. So, he must either divided his power by three, if we assume they are close in power, or there's more to it that wasn't fully explained.

So, in resume, we have Tenebrae as a spirit, trying to take Satele's mind? Where is his essence? If he's not TPing Satele, what's actually happening? And if he is, from where?
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Fri Dec 11, 2020 9:55 pm
My point about it being a battle of will is based on the presence of three Tenebrae, each one of them can't be as powerful as a full powered Tenebrae, otherwise he'd find a way to multiply himself while preserving his full power. So, he must either divided his power by three, if we assume they are close in power, or there's more to it that wasn't fully explained.

Yes, he divided his power. By the end, he merged all of his forms into one to overpower the protagonists before splitting into three and working together to overwhelm them all. It's why Vaylin and Revan for example are both able to fairly easily strike down a version of him (approximately 1/3 of his full power) and the Outlander can stand up to and hold strong against an assault by all three at the same time until they focus solely on him (which quickly begins to overwhelm him since Valkorion's power, not his TP, is >> the Outlander's even a couple of years after KOTET). That said, we can't really quantify how powerful the forms it took are until the very end when Tenebrae consolidated his power, given that he was trying to torment the characters and was caught off guard and/or failed to dominate them as he had before.

So, in resume, we have Tenebrae as a spirit, trying to take Satele's mind? Where is his essence? If he's not TPing Satele, what's actually happening? And if he is, from where?

It's inside Satele's mind, simultaneously dominating her mind and overpowering her and all of her students and draining their power to make itself even stronger.
DarthAdi
DarthAdi

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Fri Dec 11, 2020 10:39 pm
Either solo.
The Found
The Found

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Sat Dec 12, 2020 1:21 am
@LadyKulvax wrote:Sel
she still lives?
TenebrousWay
TenebrousWay

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:10 am
@BreakofDawn wrote:
My point about it being a battle of will is based on the presence of three Tenebrae, each one of them can't be as powerful as a full powered Tenebrae, otherwise he'd find a way to multiply himself while preserving his full power. So, he must either divided his power by three, if we assume they are close in power, or there's more to it that wasn't fully explained.

Yes, he divided his power. By the end, he merged all of his forms into one to overpower the protagonists before splitting into three and working together to overwhelm them all. It's why Vaylin and Revan for example are both able to fairly easily strike down a version of him (approximately 1/3 of his full power) and the Outlander can stand up to and hold strong against an assault by all three at the same time until they focus solely on him (which quickly begins to overwhelm him since Valkorion's power, not his TP, is >> the Outlander's even a couple of years after KOTET). That said, we can't really quantify how powerful the forms it took are until the very end when Tenebrae consolidated his power, given that he was trying to torment the characters and was caught off guard and/or failed to dominate them as he had before.

So, in resume, we have Tenebrae as a spirit, trying to take Satele's mind? Where is his essence? If he's not TPing Satele, what's actually happening? And if he is, from where?

It's inside Satele's mind, simultaneously dominating her mind and overpowering her and all of her students and draining their power to make itself even stronger.

Interesting stuff Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 2864379292 I'll be playing SWTOR soon now that I'm on vacation, I haven't played it since before KotFE, in 2015. Thanks for the breakdown but it still looks confusing as fuck lol Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 1289255181
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Sat Dec 12, 2020 4:19 am
@TenebrousWay wrote:
@BreakofDawn wrote:
My point about it being a battle of will is based on the presence of three Tenebrae, each one of them can't be as powerful as a full powered Tenebrae, otherwise he'd find a way to multiply himself while preserving his full power. So, he must either divided his power by three, if we assume they are close in power, or there's more to it that wasn't fully explained.

Yes, he divided his power. By the end, he merged all of his forms into one to overpower the protagonists before splitting into three and working together to overwhelm them all. It's why Vaylin and Revan for example are both able to fairly easily strike down a version of him (approximately 1/3 of his full power) and the Outlander can stand up to and hold strong against an assault by all three at the same time until they focus solely on him (which quickly begins to overwhelm him since Valkorion's power, not his TP, is >> the Outlander's even a couple of years after KOTET). That said, we can't really quantify how powerful the forms it took are until the very end when Tenebrae consolidated his power, given that he was trying to torment the characters and was caught off guard and/or failed to dominate them as he had before.

So, in resume, we have Tenebrae as a spirit, trying to take Satele's mind? Where is his essence? If he's not TPing Satele, what's actually happening? And if he is, from where?

It's inside Satele's mind, simultaneously dominating her mind and overpowering her and all of her students and draining their power to make itself even stronger.

Interesting stuff Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 2864379292 I'll be playing SWTOR soon now that I'm on vacation, I haven't played it since before KotFE, in 2015. Thanks for the breakdown but it still looks confusing as fuck lol Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 1289255181

Ha, SWTOR is pretty confusing in general, to be honest. It's a great game but even this story drop - arguably the best since the vanilla stories - takes quite a bit of thinking to try and understand it. Mental plane battles in SWTOR are confusing as hell, lol.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Sat Dec 12, 2020 10:17 am
@TenebrousWay wrote:I haven't played the new patch yet but isn't part of Valkorion's (a part that hasn't experienced the events of SWTOR) "essence" unleashed into Satele and her apprentices? The whole affair takes part inside her mind, so it's difficult to reach any conclusion about it but it looks like they aren't fighting Tenebrae in a battle of power, it looks like it's battle of willpower.

This is similar to the how Luke Skywalker and Darth Krayt fought Abeloth in "Beyond Shadows." The duo wasn't physically present in this battle, remember? When Luke noticed Abeloth, his instinctive reaction was to reach for his lightsaber but it wasn't there...

Satele Shan had become a gateway to "Beyond Shadows" of Valkorion by virtue of a PLAGUE which was in fact infiltration of her mind by an echo of Valkorion's immortal essence. Kira Carsen - being a Child of the Emperor - made it possible for her allies to access this gateway and confront Valkorion who was now attempting to recover his lost strength in full and transform Satele into his next VOICE. It turned into an all-compassing clash of willpower and strength insider her mind akin to how it would be in real.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Sat Dec 12, 2020 3:20 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:Once again, this remains unconfirmed. All we know is that Valk did something to the Outlander, consistent with his, Vitiate's and other's claims that the Outlander possesses Vitiate/Valk level potential. Chances are all he did was accelerate his growth, not arbitrarily give him extra power that - for some reason - was unaffected when he was destroyed the first time like it should have been (see Scourge's immortality for relevance).

Following statement: "Until you embrace your full potential, you will only be a pawn of fate. Never its Master." - is vague and manipulative. The first option to address it is literally this: "Stop trying to manipulate me." This statement is in the context of Arcann at most.

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Arcann-focus1

This:

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Valkorion-Midichlorian-Manipulation

- happened and is correct.

Satele Shan and Darth Marr as a spirit spent much time on Odessen reflecting on their respective failures:

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Darth-Marr-and-Satele-Shan-Training

- and were able to convince The Outlander to not restrict himself to the teachings of the Jedi Order:

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Arcann-defeat-difficult

- but consider anything and everything which may help carry him to victory including the need to create a weapon that would be an extension of his will:

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 TAC-new-weapon1

Even though the Jedi Order produced some of the finest Jedi in history in times of the Great Galactic War, its teachings were not enough to stop Arcann in his tracks because he was of a different philosophy.

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Knights-of-Zakuul-better-than-Jedi

Valkorion was on another level in comparison to his sons who in turn were on another level in comparison to the Jedi. Valkorion wasn't stagnant in his growth but ever-increasing in his strength and abilities by virtue of his destructive applications of the Force and Sith Sorcery. No living being could keep up with him in person therefore, but Champions of the Light emerged to oppose him eventually starting with Revan. The Force strives for balance one way or the other.

Only Valkorion's daughter Vaylin had the potential to match him in person among all living beings - his finest creation in his own words: "Vaylin is my most perfect creation - and the most dangerous."

Valkorion needed VOICES to intermingle with the living nevertheless and he was looking forward to transform The Outlander into one and reclaim The Eternal Throne in this new body after making it possible for The Outlander to liberate The Eternal Empire from the tyranny of his children. The Outlander could not bear the sheer weight of Valkorion's immortal essence however, therefore, Valkorion had to "prepare" him for the needful - this happened on Odessen (see above). And when the time came for the needful, Valkorion's family intervened and helped The Outlander purge Valkorion's immortal essence from his mind instead.

The Alliance Commander is now an OUTLIER with exceptional combat-applicable skills and strength - thanks in part to mechanisms of Valkorion. He is not a member of any Order but work with unlikely allies to maintain peace in the galaxy. He learns and use every trick and technique to his advantage as he see fit.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
The "entity" is connected, simply manifesting as multiple beings at once. Your argument here just concedes that 2/3 of Valk's power in the form of a Wave couldn't stop the Outlander and it took the last third (and Tenebrae - the true form of the imprint - himself) specifically focusing on the Outlander just to overwhelm him.

It's largely irrelevant anyway, since it seems you've conceded that the Outlander was requiring a majority (at least) of Valk's power to force him back down and keep him there

The Alliance Commander was experiencing oneness at the time as per his own words:

"I am one with the Force, and the Force is with me." - The Alliance Commander

This is a blatant misconstruction. He said this in response to Vitiate's earlier claims that he was infinite.

"You think you're infinite. Only the Force is infinite. I am one with the Force and the Force is with me."

It's a meaningless phrase where the Outlander recites old Jedi teachings. It's not proof of Oneness, nor is there any physical sign, indication or implication of Oneness until much later (the golden glow).

Those are two separate statements and not related to each other. The Alliance Commander was most certainly in a state of enlightenment at the time which would help him fight to the best of his abilities. Force-users do not declare "I am one with the Force and the Force is with me" on a regular basis. Luke Skywalker was in a similar state of enlightenment before confronting Abeloth for the last time.

Think of Valkorion as a gigantic octopus with multiple prey items under its iron grip - each prey item in the grip of a separate leg. These prey items have their respective strengths and weaknesses, but one of them is strong enough to break free from the grip of a leg holding it down only to be caught and forced to submit again through the same leg but with greater force than before. This does not suggest that the stronger prey item could fight off the entire Octopus if it had to deal with it as a whole. The Octopus would have a much easier time ripping it apart "alone."

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Valkorion-Force-Whirlwind1

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Valkorion-Force-Whirlwind2

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Tenebrae-down-TAC

They were all trying to resist Valkorion's power to the best of their abilities under the circumstances but only The Alliance Commander had the strength to resist Valkorion's whirlwind of energy but not for long as the Tenebrae Form took care of the problem on its own - the entity clearly had the capacity to do more than keeping the entire Alliance Strike Team on its knees (i.e. to deliver another blow). If The Alliance Commander were to fight Valkorion [alone], the former would be utterly overwhelmed.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
He clutches his head because Valk's full power is starting to overwhelm him, when Tenebrae stops focusing on all of the characters and focuses his attack on the Outlander, allowing Kira (or Scourge) an opportunity to achieve Force Harmony. It takes most of Tenebrae/Vitiate/Valkorion's strength to do so. If anything, the Tenebrae form's power would have been the greatest of the trio, given that it's the true form of the plague and was clearly just manifesting future echoes of itself.

Valkorion never stopped focusing on all of the protagonists to bring The Alliance Commander down to his knees (again) - see above.

The Alliance Strike Team began to achieve the state of oneness as a collective to OVERCOME Valkorion's whirlwind of energy however; Lord Scourge was the first to demonstrate oneness and stand on his feet followed by others:

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 The-Protagonists-Collective-Oneness

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 The-Protagonists-Collective-Oneness1

That is how they all OVERCOME Valkorion's whirlwind of energy.

Then too many spirits began to manifest and terminated Valkorion's immortal essence for good.

"At the end... all those people who appeared around us. Who were they?" - The Alliance Commander

"They were the consequences he fled for so many centuries." - Satele Shan

"The rest... Darth Marr, Meetra Surik, Revan... I believe they are all one with the Force." - Satele Shan

The Cosmic Force = 1
Valkorion = 0

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Which would be relevant, if I were arguing the Outlander could single-handedly take Valkorion.

See above.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Abeloth failed because she spread her power and attention across countless forms at once, and as each was killed it weakened her significantly. At one point, Krayt is down and it takes all of Luke's strength to stop her crushing his throat.

From where you get the countless forms part, really? I do not recall anything of the sort in any publication.

Abeloth was fighting following by the end:

Avatar # 1 versus Luke Skywalker and Darth Krayt*
Avatar # 2 versus Ben Skywalker and Vestara Khai**
Avatar # 3 versus Saba Sebatyne, Tahiri Veila, Stomper 1 and Stomper 2***

***This avatar was inside a machine and producing shadow ghouls to fight its opponents. The idea was to draw it out from the machine by using grenades. When this was accomplished, Saba put her skills with a Lightsaber and biological strengths to good use to cut off its tentacles and head singlehandedly before it could swallow her or something, ending it for good. Saba certainly acknowledged that the avatar she was fighting was loosing its strength due to whatever was happening to avatar # 1 in other location (MAW) which was up against Luke and Darth Krayt at the time.

**By tapping into the Font's dark power, Vestara fueled her strength and used Force Lightning to good effect repeatedly while Ben crushed the avatar by collapsing pillars on it one by one. Ben was reluctant to tap into the Font's dark power however and decided to capitalize on other stuff to his advantage for the needful. Vestara's Force Lightning in this dynamic was potent enough to overwhelm a Canderous- class hovertank.

*This was probably the last avatar to fade from existence. Darth Krayt made extensive use of Force Drain to carry himself in the ongoing battle and reduced Abeloth to the point that she could not longer sustain and manifest to affect her surroundings, and diminished. Luke also deserve credit for preventing Abeloth from overwhelming Darth Krayt before he could diminish her with his application. Although both Luke and Darth Krayt suffered similar but extensive wounds, both walked out from the ordeal alive.

Luke did not rule out the possibility of her return due to the immortality factor and sourced the Dagger of Mortis just in case.

It is blatantly obvious that Luke stood no chance against Abeloth all on his own and needed allies in this battle to succeed and all groups suceeded in their respective ways.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Also, comparing the strike team to the Chosen One's son and one of the most powerful Sith Lords of all time is really not a good idea.

Oh please...

1. Luke is but one man and far removed from being all-powerful in the lore. He found himself in numerous situations in which he needed help from others to make it through. FANON perceptions of him on the other hand...
2. Darth Krayt got his @-- handed to him in a Force Storm unleashed by Karness Muur in another battle that he fought years later.
3. The Strike Team in question is not that of mediocrity but some of the most powerful Force-users in history banding together in pursuit of one goal (i.e. to vanquish Valkorion's immortal essence). If I start expanding on the capabilities and accomplishments of each of the protagonists involved, it would take me days to cover them all. I will still put things in context for you in brief - see below.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
Immortality is not invulnerability.  The mere fact that he was driven to the brink of death by the HoT pre-SoR is enough proof of that without even referring to the others (including Valkorion's own admission that he had to fight the pull of death when the Outlander or Arcann struck him down in KOTFE chapter 1).

When discussing Valkorion, you need to be mindful of the difference between his immortal essence and VOICES. It was possible to destroy a VOICE of Valkorion in combative situations but this is absolutely different from preventing Valkorion from cheating death and coming back in another form - the immortality aspect of him (i.e. immortal essence) to which there was no conventional counter in the realm of the living as apparent in developments on Ziost. When Valkorion manifested on Ziost without any VOICE - the Jedi and Sith attempted to get a FIX on his immortal essence, but to no avail, because it produced no signature whatsoever and there was no anchor to it to be exploited against him (or it). Understand the difference and continue to read below.

After consuming Ziost, Valkorion was observed in another VOICE serving The Eternal Empire. This VOICE allowed The Outlander to strike him down only to infilitrate the mind of his enemy (unwilling host) and the former was absolutely capable of consuming this new host from within but The Outlander wasn't strong enough to bear the weight of his power and Valkorion was in no rush to take over. However, when the time came to hollow-out The Outlander from within, Valkorion suffered an unexpected setback due to intervention of his family members and weaponization of a deadly artifact against him which all but vanquished his immortal essence. Valkorion had another fail-safe in the form of his original body however which was discovered and destroyed by Lord Scourge and Kira Carsen when the course of events in Chapter 9 of the Knights of the Eternal Throne expansion set were taking place. Destruction of the original body still produced an echo which infilitrated the mind of Satele Shan and made it possible for Valkorion to recover inside her and transform her into new a VOICE. A large number of protagonists then assemble to stop this from happening (course of events in Onslaught UPDATE 6.2). Continue to read below.

The legendary Jedi Knight (alias Hero of Tython) managed to defeat a (The Sith Emperor) VOICE of Valkorion that was compromised by premature collapse of his galaxy-consuming ritual - all thanks to the exploits of the former earlier. This particular VOICE was in the process of recovering its lost strength when Hero of Tython came for it on Dromund Kaas - how much this VOICE recovered is open to interpretation because it could not produce Force powers on the scale and intensity of the earlier (The Sith Emperor) VOICE witnessed in ACT 2. Continue to read below.

So what was the point again? The immortal essence of Valkorion was his most powerful aspect and it wasn't possible for any living being (or entity) to undo this aspect under normal circumstances - VOICES were expendable on the other hand. Valkorion's immortal essence was so powerful that he wiped out Ziost when he manifested on this world in this form in what is stated to be the single greatest display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force throughout history:

Whispered rumors have persisted of planets snuffed out through intricate Sith rituals or by way of deadly, arcane machines--such as the device Revan sought to employ on Yavin 4--but Ziost represents a clear display of the corrosive power of the dark side of the Force taken to its extreme. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Rise of the Sith Emperor: Codex Entry titled "Death of a World."

You cannot destroy something that you cannot even feel and touch which was the case on Ziost:

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 6755495-9433071408-45637

The Alliance Strike Team was taking its chances with the immortal essence of Valkorion inside the mind of Satele Shan (thanks to Kira Carsen for making this possible), and this is why the battle was proving so difficult for the protagonists involved - the immortality aspect of Valkorion was much well-developed and seemingly impractical to undo - this is why Valkorion is stated to be a being of unfathomable power. Think about it - The Ones also had immortality and the general impression is that it would take the Dagger of Mortis to KILL either for better or worse. The Father was in decline and dying due to unexplained factors in large part but he was extremely long-lived and spent by the time of The Clone Wars anyways.

Such an ensemble would steamroll any Force-user in a conventional battle under normal circumstances TBH.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
It's never stated to be greater. In fact, all that is said is that he had achieved a form the Ancient Sith had never managed to, which is true (with the exception of the likes of Kun, but even he was bound to the Temple). That doesn't make it remotely better than Sheev's for example, who not only achieved relative immortality, but found his way out of Chaos itself as a spirit.

Valkorion is not a Force Ghost (or a Sith Spirit) akin to Darth Marr and the sort but something much different: "A being of unfathomable power and insatiable appetite, he transcended death multiple times, shedding his physical shells as they were discovered, defeated, and destroyed... only to return in another form." - SWTOR - Codex Entry - The Fall of Valkorion.

Palpatine cheated death only once (very impressive accomplishment no doubt but no need to stretch this feat with fanciful interpretations) - he could not do this repeatedly. When his supply of cloned bodies ran out, he realized that his end was drawing near (see [1] below) and traveled to Korriban to commune with Sith spirits which in turn advised him to subject a Force-sensitive newborn to Transfer Life. Palpatine was using this technique to move from one cloned body to next in times of the Dark Empire because the clones could never be reliable on the level of living beings (see [2] below) - Transfer Life is an application of the Force and should not be mistaken for "cheating death."

For [1]: The Emperor continued his galaxy gun attacks but it was becoming more and more obvious that his cloned body would not live much longer. Without a new body he would be resigned to utter madness beyond death. -  Star Wars Handbook # 3 - Dark Empire

For [2]: Palpatine's own clone bodies were getting further and further away from the original, and thus they were decaying faster and faster. The Emperor needed a new template, a new, powerful body to inhabit and consolidate his control over the galaxy. - Star Wars Handbook # 3 - Dark Empire

Palpatine could not produce VOICES in all manner of living beings much like Valkorion - this is apparent from the fact when Palpatine attempted to Transfer Life into Jedi Knight Brand, the Sith Lord failed and his essence was vanquished by the Jedi in the resulting clash of willpower (i.e. an unwilling host) - the Jedi also perished because he was mortally wounded by Palpatine's Force Lightning earlier and the subsequent clash of willpower with Palpatine's essence took further toll on him. As I have repeatedly stressed before, the act of Transfer Life in other living beings (i.e. an unwilling host) is one of the most difficult applications to ever attempt from technical standpoint (i.e. on the level of summoning and sustaining a Force Storm Wormhole as per D6 system rules), and the most risky feat to attempt for virtually any Force-user in the lore - chances of failure are really high. Even Darth Plagueis admitted that the rare talent of Midichlorian Manipulation is a lesser feat in comparison:

The pneuma governs consciousness. Through this I am convinced that the energy pattern we know as self-awareness can be preserved and imprinted a second time into the neural pathways of a different brain. This process would be simplest with a cloned body that is identical to the subject's own, though in theory any advanced biological form would prove sufficient. Body swapping of this nature is riskier than simply sustaining one's own life through midi-chlorian manipulation. In dire emergency however, it could serve as an escape from oblivion. - Darth Plagueis, Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side

Valkorion was on another level in comparison to any Sith to have ever existed - the former spent centuries pushing his immortality to new heights:

In his relentless pursuit of immortality, the Emperor explored the most sinister, uncharted depths of the dark side. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

+

The Emperor was no longer a member of the Sith species; his power and immortality had transformed him into a being unique in the galaxy. When he spoke of life and death, it had far deeper meaning than the mere physical existence of the lesser beings that served him. - (Darth Nyriss, Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

+

Remember that all those who have direct access to the Emperor—the Emperor’s Voice, the Emperor’s Hand, the soldiers in the Imperial Guard—are under his spell. Breaking that spell, turning his most loyal followers against him, is our best chance of defeating him and saving the Empire from his mad plan to attack the Republic. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan

NOTE: Kudos to Darth Nyriss to figure all that out. Her assessment was brilliant.

+
The Voice is the mouthpiece through which the Emperor delivers his orders. This possessed being sacrifices all consciousness to become a hollow vessel for the Emperor. Over the centuries, the Emperor has taken many Voices from young children to alien species. When the Voice speaks, it does so with the Emperor's cold, emotionless, and commanding tone. The Voice also wields the Emperor's incredible power and is capable of striking down anyone who displeases him. Those who converse with the Voice are overwhelmed with dread and unshakable obedience. To speak with the Voice is to speak with the Emperor himself.

The Emperor created his first Voice after the legendary Jedi named Revan attempted to assassinate him on Dromund Kaas. Though Revan's plot failed, he approached within striking distance of the Emperor. To guard against further vulnerability, the Emperor created the Voice to deliver his orders while distancing himself from the forces that conspired against him. Centuries later, this very safeguard would save the Emperor once more.
- Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

NOTE: Darth Plagueis was absolutely correct.

Understand the difference.

Valkorion is stated to be the most powerful Force-user ever for good reason:

The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed. - Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

BioWare isn't stupid for hyping Valkorion to that extent. They understand D6 and D20 technicalities because they develop games and have a deep grasp of the lore as well - more so than many fans around the world.

It is important to understand the lore, its technicalities and developments before jumping to conclusions while evaluating characters relative to each other. This require much reading and contemplating however.

@BreakofDawn wrote:
...And the Force created a literal embodiment of its power (Light and Dark) in response to Plagueis and Sidious. Appealing to the idea of the will of the Force isn't a good basis given that the exact same logic applies to Sidious.

I am not drawing a comparison in this matter but simply pointing out the obvious that whenever forces of darkness reached the stage of creating much imbalance in galactic affairs and otherwise, Champions of the Light would emerge to oppose them from time-to-time - the Force strives for balance in this manner.

"At the end... all those people who appeared around us. Who were they?" - The Alliance Commander

"They were the consequences he fled for so many centuries." - Satele Shan

"The rest... Darth Marr, Meetra Surik, Revan... I believe they are all one with the Force." - Satele Shan

Valkorion went too far in his EVIL and continued to deny the will of the Force by cheating death time and again and the odds began to stack up against him in force and he received a spectacular send-off by extension - the will of the Force cannot be bend for indefinite period.

About Anakin Skywalker:



His Midichlorian count was the highest among all whose Midichlorian count were recorded in history and the list includes Master Yoda. This was a late and uncommon practice nevertheless. There is no guarantee that Anakin's Midichlorian Count was the highest among all living beings ever to appear in the lore however. Following revelation is now canon: https://www.starwars.com/databank/anakin-skywalker

Of-course, Darth Plagueis and Palpatine were up to much EVIL in secrecy and their actions would have consequences. The prophesy of The Chosen One lost its charm and value in Dark Empire (Legends continuity) and Episode 9 (Canon continuity). How unfortunate.


Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Mon Dec 14, 2020 3:15 am; edited 1 time in total
darthbane77
darthbane77

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Sun Dec 13, 2020 12:29 pm
Luke still wins. While I think Tenebrae likely has more power he can dedicate solely to combat, Luke should still be an overall better combatant, and he's very nearly as strong as Tenebrae is. Plus, if Luke gets really desperate, he can enter Oneness at will for a god-sized power boost and just straight up murk the former Emperor.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:39 pm
@darthbane77 wrote:Luke still wins. While I think Tenebrae likely has more power he can dedicate solely to combat, Luke should still be an overall better combatant, and he's very nearly as strong as Tenebrae is. Plus, if Luke gets really desperate, he can enter Oneness at will for a god-sized power boost and just straight up murk the former Emperor.

Not necessarily.

Valkorion have the capability to manipulate space-time continuum to strike at Luke Skywalker before he can do something and rout him. Even if WE are to assume that Luke can take much punishment, Valkorion's applications are some of the most lethal ever witnessed: https://www.suspectinsightforums.com/t3357-tenebrae-s-force-blast-technique-in-focus-one-of-the-most-potent-expressions-of-raw-power-ever#62152

Luke's defenses are not infallible. He had no direct counter to Exar Kun's Sith Sorcery (not sure if this gap was plugged), and also in the case of Darth Krayt's application of Force Drain at a much later stage of his life. Tenebrae is/was on another level in these matters in comparison to both on the other hand.

I can see the possibility of Luke defeating a Voice of Tenebrae in a moment of oneness but this is assuming that he can withstand initial attack(s) without loosing his footing and is able to experience oneness in the heat of battle - a matter of "IF." In case this happen then YES - the VOICE will be routed (no arguments in this scenario).


Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:45 pm; edited 1 time in total
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:41 pm
No offence Legend, but I'm not trudging through that WoT.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:49 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:No offence Legend, but I'm not trudging through that WoT.

Why don't you just admit that I addressed all of your contentions with appropriate visuals and references but you do not want to come to terms with the obvious? This is why these conversations do not get anywhere because some members are stuck in the past and hubris of what they perceive to be true. They do not want to be corrected.


Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:58 pm; edited 2 times in total
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:53 pm
@S_W_LeGenD wrote:
@BreakofDawn wrote:No offence Legend, but I'm not trudging through that WoT.

Why don't you just admit that I addressed all of your contentions with appropriate visuals and references but you do not want to come to terms with the obvious? This is why these conversations do not get anywhere because some members are stuck in the past and hubris of what they perceive to be true. They do not want to be corrected.

Because your debating technique isn't about being right. It's about flooding threads with massive walls of text so users get bored of replying and correcting it again and again. You've failed to rebut any of my points, even the one regarding Valkorion and the Outlander's boost, with anything I haven't already addressed. That you keep trying to buffet myself and others with WoT doesn't make your cases convincing; it makes them boring.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:57 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:
@S_W_LeGenD wrote:
@BreakofDawn wrote:No offence Legend, but I'm not trudging through that WoT.

Why don't you just admit that I addressed all of your contentions with appropriate visuals and references but you do not want to come to terms with the obvious? This is why these conversations do not get anywhere because some members are stuck in the past and hubris of what they perceive to be true. They do not want to be corrected.

Because your debating technique isn't about being right. It's about flooding threads with massive walls of text so users get bored of replying and correcting it again and again. You've failed to rebut any of my points, even the one regarding Valkorion and the Outlander's boost, with anything I haven't already addressed. That you keep trying to buffet myself and others with WoT doesn't make your cases convincing; it makes them boring.

You are in denial - plainly and very clearly. Now you are resorting to ad-hominem. Not cool.

Any theme and/or conversation require an open mind to contemplate and move forward in it. This is not the way.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Sun Dec 13, 2020 6:59 pm
@S_W_LeGenD wrote:
@BreakofDawn wrote:
@S_W_LeGenD wrote:
@BreakofDawn wrote:No offence Legend, but I'm not trudging through that WoT.

Why don't you just admit that I addressed all of your contentions with appropriate visuals and references but you do not want to come to terms with the obvious? This is why these conversations do not get anywhere because some members are stuck in the past and hubris of what they perceive to be true. They do not want to be corrected.

Because your debating technique isn't about being right. It's about flooding threads with massive walls of text so users get bored of replying and correcting it again and again. You've failed to rebut any of my points, even the one regarding Valkorion and the Outlander's boost, with anything I haven't already addressed. That you keep trying to buffet myself and others with WoT doesn't make your cases convincing; it makes them boring.

You are in denial - plainly and very clearly. Now you are resorting to ad-hominem. Not cool.

Any theme and/or conversation require an open mind to contemplate and move forward. This is not the way.

Shrug It's constructive feedback. Up to you whether you take it or not, but until you do your posts are going to have a very limited influence on debates. Speaking from someone who used to make the same mistakes, I'd personally work at making your arguments more concise and directly address points that the other has raised, not repeating the same argument repeatedly.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:05 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:
@S_W_LeGenD wrote:
@BreakofDawn wrote:
@S_W_LeGenD wrote:
@BreakofDawn wrote:No offence Legend, but I'm not trudging through that WoT.

Why don't you just admit that I addressed all of your contentions with appropriate visuals and references but you do not want to come to terms with the obvious? This is why these conversations do not get anywhere because some members are stuck in the past and hubris of what they perceive to be true. They do not want to be corrected.

Because your debating technique isn't about being right. It's about flooding threads with massive walls of text so users get bored of replying and correcting it again and again. You've failed to rebut any of my points, even the one regarding Valkorion and the Outlander's boost, with anything I haven't already addressed. That you keep trying to buffet myself and others with WoT doesn't make your cases convincing; it makes them boring.

You are in denial - plainly and very clearly. Now you are resorting to ad-hominem. Not cool.

Any theme and/or conversation require an open mind to contemplate and move forward. This is not the way.

Shrug It's constructive feedback. Up to you whether you take it or not, but until you do your posts are going to have a very limited influence on debates. Speaking from someone who used to make the same mistakes, I'd personally work at making your arguments more concise and directly address points that the other has raised, not repeating the same argument repeatedly.

You want me to type one-liners now? I can do this but then the conversation will continue to drag on and on. Please learn to address points irrespective of how they are constructed (detailed or in brief), and not resort to ad-hominem. Otherwise concede (or acknowledge at minimum) and move on.

I do not tell another person how to construct arguments because this is not cool - everybody have his style of writing and level of investment in a conversation. I focus on addressing points whether they are to my taste or not. This is how it should be.

There are numerous WoT posts in this forum and people have no issue going through them. I am sure you have read some and had no issue with them.

There are better ways to end a conversation. Sincere advice.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:20 pm
It's quite clear you're not open to feedback, in which case there's nothing less to discuss, here. Have a nice day.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:22 pm
@BreakofDawn wrote:It's quite clear you're not open to feedback, in which case there's nothing less to discuss, here. Have a nice day.

My apologies that our conversation came down to this.
Rei
Rei

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Sun Dec 13, 2020 7:31 pm
I am going to have to strongly agree with @BreakofDawn here.

A lot of your posts are huge walls of text where a lot of it is not even relevant (or the relevance not made clear to the discussion at least) or directly addressing others' points. A lot of it is just general statements about Tenebrae or someone else with a lot of hyperbole and hype with no connection ever being made to the relevant discussion or the other person's points. You could easily cut down a huge part of the Wall of text by being more concise and specific to the relevant discussion instead of throwing random statements and hyperbole. This way your posts are more concise, specific and directly address the others' points without the need to read irrelevant random statements about Tenebrae's life every now and then. If you are going to put random statements, then you need to make it very clear why this is relevant to the discussion or strengthens your specific argument. Throwing random statements about Tenebrae's life or someone else and expecting others to just draw the relevance or the connection to the discussion does not work and makes it seem like you are just writing a lot to make it look like you have a strong argument.

Be more concise, directly show the relevance of what you say to the discussion and cut irrelevant text from your post.
S_W_LeGenD
S_W_LeGenD

Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious  - Page 4 Empty Re: Valkorion vs Luke Skywalker and Darth Sidious

on Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:41 pm
@Rei wrote:I am going to have to strongly agree with @BreakofDawn here.

A lot of your posts are huge walls of text where a lot of it is not even relevant (or the relevance not made clear to the discussion at least) or directly addressing others' points. A lot of it is just general statements about Tenebrae or someone else with a lot of hyperbole and hype with no connection ever being made to the relevant discussion or the other person's points. You could easily cut down a huge part of the Wall of text by being more concise and specific to the relevant discussion instead of throwing random statements and hyperbole. This way your posts are more concise, specific and directly address the others' points without the need to read irrelevant random statements about Tenebrae's life every now and then. If you are going to put random statements, then you need to make it very clear why this is relevant to the discussion or strengthens your specific argument. Throwing random statements about Tenebrae's life or someone else and expecting others to just draw the relevance or the connection to the discussion does not work and makes it seem like you are just writing a lot to make it look like you have a strong argument.

Be more concise, directly show the relevance of what you say to the discussion and cut irrelevant text from your post.

I see your point but I did not type a thesis which the other member found too lengthy and overwhelming to contemplate and digest in person. I addressed all of his points in my post with appropriate evidence but he made an excuse to ignore it because he have made up his mind already. An advice should be sincere in its construct and not an attempt to pass ad-hominem as one.

I will make my posts more concise and to the point nevertheless.


Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Sun Dec 13, 2020 8:47 pm; edited 1 time in total
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