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The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:32 pm
FotJ Luke. KOTFE physical Valkorion.

Sabers (lol)

Force

All Out

Who wins and why?


Last edited by ILS on Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:36 pm; edited 1 time in total
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
Moderator | Champion of the Light
Moderator | Champion of the Light

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:35 pm
Luke wins since Valkorion dissolves into nothing by virtue of being a spirit. Even if you argue he could sustain himself without an anchor, Luke can banish him with Force harmony.

_________________
Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Sheev_sig_3
The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:37 pm
Azronger wrote:Luke wins since Valkorion dissolves into nothing by virtue of being a spirit. Even if you argue he could sustain himself without an anchor, Luke can banish him with Force harmony.
LMAO. Good point. I changed from KOTET to physical KOTFE Valk.
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
Level Four

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:37 pm
Luke still wins.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Three
Level Three

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:48 pm
Luke.
The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Wed Aug 21, 2019 6:52 pm
Reasons and arguments are mandatory in this thread
MasterCilghal
MasterCilghal
Level Three
Level Three

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:05 pm
Luke. He is superior in every conceivable way. He’s obviously far superior as a lightsaber duelist, is implied to be capable of becoming greater than DE Sidious and confirmed superior of a ROTJ Palpatine in potential. His ability to utterly stomp UnuThul and Caedus along with compete with Abeloth impresses me at least a bit more than anything Valkorion has.
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:08 pm
Luke wins via reasons.
Ziggy
Ziggy

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Wed Aug 21, 2019 7:46 pm
A non-jobbing Luke would win. 

His defeating of Raynar backed by the killik colony is better than anything Valk has done thus far.
Blade_of_Dorin
Blade_of_Dorin
Level One
Level One

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:18 pm
Luke.
Praxis
Praxis
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Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:27 pm
Full power Valk is kinda hard to quantify since we never really got to see him in action aside from one-shotting Darth Marr and Arcann so I'm gonna have to go with Luke.
dark_globe
dark_globe

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:29 pm
DC77 (Reborn) wrote:Luke wins via reasons.
The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Wed Aug 21, 2019 10:38 pm
@Praxis wrote:Full power Valk is kinda hard to quantify since we never really got to see him in action aside from one-shotting Darth Marr and Arcann so I'm gonna have to go with Luke.
What are the implications of being able to oneshot Marr or Arcann, though? Especially with as little effort as Valk did.

https://i.imgur.com/M5qzcrn.mp4

https://imgur.com/PcVm1Nf

What level do we peg them at?

Marr was quoted to possibly be the strongest Sith in the Empire, bar Vitiate, as of Act 3. On a level with Nox, Emperor's Wrath II, and considerably more powerful than Thanaton or Baras. And Arcann was on a level where he could clearly dominate post-Ziost SWTOR protagonists from any of the 8 classes, in lightsaber combat or with the Force.

And Valk simply oneshots Marr and Arcann like they are nothing.

How many people can claim to be capable of destroying Force users of that calibre so easily?

Another question is how does Luke break through Valk's lightsaber-proof barrier? He could end up in a similar situation to Arcann where he tries, fails, and leaves himself open to a blast.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
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Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Wed Aug 21, 2019 11:58 pm
Don't forget that physical Valk scales from his spirit dominating Outlander, Vaylin and Arcann simultaneously even when they had the ubercron to aid them vastly, where it's strongly implied they're being given aid from Revan, Marr and Satele Shan.
Praxis
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Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Thu Aug 22, 2019 12:02 am
@ILS

The thing with Marr is he doesn't really have anything other than the quote stating his abilites are second to none which grants him some scaling I guess. The only named character he's defeated is Darth Lachris who was his apprentice. One-shotting someone roughly on the same level as the Act 3 protags isn't something I would put past Luke unless he was jobbing.

The Arcann we see get one-shotted was 5 years younger than his KOTFE version and he fought in a war during that period so unless he remained the same for those 5 years I'm not sure if its fair to use him to scale off of.

As for the saber barrier thing I'm not so sure. Does Valk have to lower his defenses to charge up his lightning strike? If so I think Luke could close the distance in that time or at least avoid/block the attack and attempt a different strategy. He's obviously not impervious to sabers since the Outlander stabbed him in the back.
Master Azronger
Master Azronger
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Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Thu Aug 22, 2019 2:29 pm
ILS wrote:What are the implications of being able to oneshot Marr or Arcann, though? Especially with as little effort as Valk did.

https://i.imgur.com/M5qzcrn.mp4

https://imgur.com/PcVm1Nf

What level do we peg them at?

Marr was quoted to possibly be the strongest Sith in the Empire, bar Vitiate, as of Act 3. On a level with Nox, Emperor's Wrath II, and considerably more powerful than Thanaton or Baras. And Arcann was on a level where he could clearly dominate post-Ziost SWTOR protagonists from any of the 8 classes, in lightsaber combat or with the Force.

And Valk simply oneshots Marr and Arcann like they are nothing.

How many people can claim to be capable of destroying Force users of that calibre so easily?

Another question is how does Luke break through Valk's lightsaber-proof barrier? He could end up in a similar situation to Arcann where he tries, fails, and leaves himself open to a blast.

As equivalent but probably better showings, I'd cite Luke pinning Darth Caedus to a chair and then imbuing that chair with his power so that Caedus couldn't budge it even a millimeter, and after that when Luke starts TK fucking Caedus again, only then does Caedus get "an idea" of how much power Luke could muster, so the chair incident was done with absolutely minimal effort; and tanking all of UnuThul's telekinesis without budging and then pinning him to a wall. I'd also point out Valkorion had a much easier job with his opponents as lightning is inherently more lethal than telekinesis and TK barriers are disproportionately hard to break. Despite this, Valkorion didn't even kill Arcann.

And Luke doesn't have to break Valkorion's barrier when he can cut around it. Arcann just kept hammering at a single point like a dunce, but that doesn't mean Luke would. And nothing leads me to believe Valkorion has the hand-to-hand skills to keep Luke's lightsaber at bay.


Last edited by Azronger on Fri Aug 23, 2019 6:25 am; edited 1 time in total
Sjuttiosju
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Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Thu Aug 22, 2019 8:48 pm
Azronger wrote:As equivalent but probably better showings, I'd cite Luke pinning Darth Caedus to a chair and then imbuing that chair with his power so that Caedus couldn't budge it even a millimeter, and after that when Luke starts TK fucking Caedus again, only then does Caedus get "an idea" of how much power Luke could muster, so the chair incident was done with absolutely minimal effort; and tanking all of UnuThul's telekinesis without budging and then pinning him to a wall. I'd also point out Valkorion had a much easier job with his opponents as lightning is inherently more lethal than telekinesis and TK barriers are disproportionately hard to break. Despite this, Valkorion didn't even kill Arcann.

And Luke doesn't have to break Valkorion's barrier when he can cut around it. Arcann just kept hammering at a single point like a dunce, but that doesn't mean Luke would. And nothing leads me to believe Valkorion has the hand-to-hand skills to keep Luke's lightsaber at bay.

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion 1289255181
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BoD
Level Six
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Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Fri Aug 23, 2019 12:45 am
@LadyKulvax wrote:Don't forget that physical Valk scales from his spirit dominating Outlander, Vaylin and Arcann simultaneously even when they had the ubercron to aid them vastly, where it's strongly implied they're being given aid from Revan, Marr and Satele Shan.
Valkorion at the time was at his full power there and could actually be argued to be even more powerful than before. Also, when was it implied Revan, Marr and Satele were helping them? Marr and Satele weren’t even aware the fight was happening until it was over.

OT: Luke. Laughably better in saber combat, somewhat more powerful in the Force, faster, stronger, and has his own impressive repository of knowledge that can help him to counter Valk’s arcane magics and Force powers.
Deronn_Solo
Deronn_Solo

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Fri Aug 23, 2019 1:10 am
Luke.

Azronger murking  with his arguments rn, ngl.
LadyKulvax
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Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:16 am
BreakofDawn wrote:
@LadyKulvax wrote:Don't forget that physical Valk scales from his spirit dominating Outlander, Vaylin and Arcann simultaneously even when they had the ubercron to aid them vastly, where it's strongly implied they're being given aid from Revan, Marr and Satele Shan.
Valkorion at the time was at his full power there and could actually be argued to be even more powerful than before. Also, when was it implied Revan, Marr and Satele were helping them? Marr and Satele weren’t even aware the fight was happening until it was over.
What? Tenebrae was just a spirit trying to possess the Outlander. He used Vaylin's absorbed energy to replace his own, to accomplish destroying the Outlander's psyché. The Outlander adopts the Valkorion personality to escape being completely destroyed. The Outlander then has to use the ubercron to recover and face Tenebrae, otherwise the Outlander literally loses all sanity and is banished permanently.

When the Outlander recovers, the spirit of Lord Dramath powered by the ubercron suicide attacks Tenebrae to attempt to weaken him. Then Tenebrae resurrects the spirit of Vaylin to aid in destroying the Outlander's mind but the Outlander uses the ubercron to break Tenebrae's control over her, thus he loses the advantage he had originally. Arcann comes to aid in the willpower battle, where they use the cron* but Tenebrae destroys the ubercron and dominates all three of them at once. Then they win when the Outlander finally exercises the strongest advantage they had; that the mind in question was the Outlander's and it's nigh impossible for an invading spirit to overpower the original host. Thus he lost.

Tenebrae was nowhere near full power.

*per Ant, when you use the ubercron, you turn into Revan, Marr and Shan for the Force in balance, dark side and light side respectively.
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Quorian Debatist
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Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:20 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Let's try some lesser-used stuff here in order to answer this. I know Praxis Praxed it with expert Praxcision, but everyone is joining in, including DC's excellent point, so I might as well.




ILS wrote:
@Praxis wrote:Full power Valk is kinda hard to quantify since we never really got to see him in action aside from one-shotting Darth Marr and Arcann so I'm gonna have to go with Luke.
What are the implications of being able to oneshot Marr or Arcann, though? Especially with as little effort as Valk did.

https://i.imgur.com/M5qzcrn.mp4

https://imgur.com/PcVm1Nf

What level do we peg them at?

Marr was quoted to possibly be the strongest Sith in the Empire, bar Vitiate, as of Act 3. On a level with Nox, Emperor's Wrath II, and considerably more powerful than Thanaton or Baras. And Arcann was on a level where he could clearly dominate post-Ziost SWTOR protagonists from any of the 8 classes, in lightsaber combat or with the Force.

And Valk simply oneshots Marr and Arcann like they are nothing.

How many people can claim to be capable of destroying Force users of that calibre so easily?

Another question is how does Luke break through Valk's lightsaber-proof barrier? He could end up in a similar situation to Arcann where he tries, fails, and leaves himself open to a blast.

The problem, of course, is that neither Marr nor Arcann lifted a finger to defend themselves. Marr was fighting guards and just watched the blast come at him without moving, and Arcann was busy recoiling awkwardly in a completely casual stance with one foot in the air.

Spoiler:
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Luke on the other hand, likely understands that you don't need to bash against an unarmed opponent/shield like you're trying to knock over a brick wall with a sledgehammer. That overextension to point where you literally bounce off a shield and just stand there without defending yourself is something maybe Force Rage ROTJ Luke would do. Luke doesn't put himself off balance because he understands that it doesn't take much to kill someone with a saber. Arcann, however, swings his saber like Luke trying to kill his dad. Luke has come a long way since then:

The Swarm War:

Lomi Plo's reaction came so suddenly that Luke doubted even she was expecting it. She just came flying at him with both blades flashing, striking high and low from opposite sides in a desperate attempt to finish him off.

Luke, of course, had anticipated this, too. Lomi Plo had no power over him. He simply stepped inside her attack and flicked his wrist twice, first sweeping his blade upward, then whipping it around in a backslash, and she landed at his feet in four parts.


To further cast doubt on Luke getting caught off guard, or hit by lightning, we can look to his scuffle with The Hidden One too. The lightning was so potent it actually slammed Luke into a pillar while throwing him back and still the lightning didn't touch Luke, nor did he drop his defenses.

Outcast:

"This is no experiment." The Hidden One was suddenly on his feet, his voice raised in a shrill shout, his anger so potent that all present except Luke and Ben took a step backward. "It is our way, and it will continue to be our way, and it is time for you to be silent and obey."

"Like the dead." Sorrowfully, Ithia shook her head. "No, Master."

The Hidden One stood on his platform, breathing hard, and then stepped down to the stone floor. "I see. I cannot let these humans remain among us even for the time it would take them to suffocate. Their influence is too strong." He raised his hands. Little crackles of electricity flickered between them. "I will show you life. I will show you the Force."

"Ben," Luke whispered. "Stand back."

It happened all at once: the Hidden One gesturing toward Luke, Ben leaping away, lightning flashing from the Hidden One's hands. It was not the purplish lightning of Emperor Palpatine, which had so nearly cost Luke his life nearly forty years before; it was all brilliant whiteness.

Luke had his lightsaber activated and up in time. The lightning crackled against his glowing blade. The strength behind the attack, of the Hidden One's energy and anger, took Luke off his feet and threw him backward. He slammed into a pillar, feeling jolts of pain in his spine and the back of his head.

But the lightning did not reach him. His blade kept it at bay. And, bracing himself with the Force, Luke took a step forward.


The Hidden One tossed his head. It was not just a gesture of anger; Luke felt the motion as a ripple in the Force. The air in the chamber responded, a wind springing up and roaring around the walls of the chamber, gaining speed and strength. It tattered the robes of the Kel Dors near the walls as it went. It veered from the wall over the throne and howled down at Luke, engulfing him, trying to drive him backward.

Luke gritted his teeth and rooted himself. Then, against the might of both wind and lightning, he took another step forward.

The Hidden One's eyes widened. His head rolled around on his shoulders, and the roar of air across Luke intensified. It tore at his robes, causing them to stand out from his body, shudder, and snap in the wind.

Luke took another step forward. It was slow going, for the Hidden One's power was great, but Luke now felt sure in his footing and in his own strength.

Out of the corner of his eye, he saw Kel Dors retreating, some of them streaming out through the blast door, Ben waving them onward.

The Hidden One's face, flushed fully red, was contorted in a mask of anger. He flicked his fingers and the lightning ceased. He moved his now freed hands in circular gestures. Luke felt the wind increase in ferocity. Most of it still whirled around the chamber before battering at him, but some, a diverted flow, spun in a tight circle directly in front of the Hidden One. As Luke watched, that errant stream of air swallowed up dust from the floor and walls, defining its outlines as a miniature funnel cloud, a few centimeters wide at its base and broadening to two meters at the ceiling. It writhed like a mortally wounded serpent.

With a gesture, the Hidden One sent the whirlwind straight at Luke.

Luke lunged at it, visualizing it, wrenching at it with the Force. His exertion was like a physical blow as he stepped into it. He felt the wind intensify for a bare moment, and then his telekinetic attack flung the whirlwind free. It rocketed off to the side and hammered into a pillar to Luke's left.

Luke took another step forward. He was more than halfway to the Hidden One now. He deactivated his lightsaber. He could turn it on again swiftly enough if the Hidden One brought forth his lightning a second time.

The whirlwind moved from pillar to pillar as if leaping. When it was directly behind Luke, it lingered there. Luke kept his senses, both the physical ones and that of the Force, alert to its movements. It hammered at the pillar itself, and Luke could hear and feel the permacrete mounting at the summit begin to crack.

The mounting at the base broke, too, and the pillar toppled toward Luke. He heard Ben's warning cry. He raised his left hand backward, using the same exertion he'd made a moment earlier against the whirlwind itself, and the pillar stopped, frozen in midfall. He gestured again and it reversed direction, toppling onto the empty floor.

And Luke took another step forward.

The Hidden One's howl of outrage was like that of his own wind. The stone throne behind him rocked and rattled on its platform.

Luke made a sweeping gesture, bringing his rear hand forward, and with it came the toppled pillar, flying forward like a spear. As the throne launched itself toward him, the pillar met it in midair, shattering the stone scat into a dozen pieces, some smooth-cut and some broken.

Luke let the pillar fall to the floor. With a wave of his hand, he sent it rolling toward the Hidden One, who leapt sideways over it as it neared him.

Luke was already in motion as the Hidden One jumped. The Kel Dor's concentration was broken, his control over the wind diminished, and Luke was able to race forward three steps in the time it took the Hidden One to clear the rolling pillar. As the Baran Do Master came down again, Luke kicked out, a spinning kick that caught the Kel Dor in the gut, throwing him backward. The Hidden One smashed up against the platform's front, crushing in its wooden front panel.

Remarkably, he stood up from the impact, raised his hands for another attack . . . and collapsed, falling onto his face.

The wind died. The rolling pillar fetched up against one that was still upright and stopped. All sounds died except that of the Hidden One's strained, frantic breathing.


Luke has known how to deflect lightning to some degree as well for around 38 years as well.

The Last Command:

The blast caught Mara square in the chest, throwing her backward to slam into the guardrail behind her. "Stop it!" Luke shouted, getting in front of her and igniting his lightsaber. C'baoth ignored him, firing a second burst. Luke caught most of it on his lightsaber blade, grimacing as the part he missed jolted through his muscles. C'baoth fired a third burst, and a fourth, and a fifth.

And then, abruptly, he lowered his hands. "You will not presume to give me commands, Jedi Skywalker," he said, his voice strangely petulant. "I am the master. You are the servant."

"I'm not your servant," Luke told him, stepping back and throwing a quick look at Mara. She was still pretty much on her feet, clutching the guardrail for support. Her eyes were open but not fully aware, her breath making little moaning sounds as she exhaled between clenched teeth. Laying his free hand on her shoulder, wincing at the stink of ozone, Luke began a quick probe of her injuries.


Lesser members of Luke's Order knew how to reverse and snake the lightning back through their blades as well:

Riptide:

The Jaden-clone deactivated his lightsaber and raised his free hand, fingers spread like a claw. Jaden knew instantly what was coming and braced himself as blue Force lightning filled the distance between them.

Jaden adjusted his blade slightly and the lightning caught in it, snaked around its length, spiraled toward the hilt, hit Jaden's hand, his forearm, his bicep.

The power burned his flesh while turning his spirit cold. He grimaced with pain. Trying to resist, he opened himself fully to the Force, but the clone's power was too much.

He screamed, took his lightsaber hilt in both hands and spun it before him, winding the Force lightning back up along its blade and away from his body. But his focus on the lightning cost him, and a renewed push from the Katarn-clone slammed him against the wall. The side of his face hit the duracrete and he sagged to the floor, struggling to maintain consciousness.



As for Luke's speed, he reacts and changes the direction of an attack mid-swing in an injured state to an Abeloth - who can move fast enough to unwind her tentacles from Luke, strike Vestara, and bind them back to Luke. The only reason he realized she attacked was that he felt her touch:

Vortex wrote:In the next instant, the girl want cartwheeling across the room. The blow had been so quick that Luke did not even realize Vestara had been struck until Abeloth's tentacle retracted and began to twine itself around his forearm.

Vortex wrote:But Abeloth was advancing on his son now; lashing high and low When Ben extended a hand to summon Taalon's lightsaber, her tentacle caught his wrist before it arrived, and she spun him into her grasp.

So Luke extended his hand, summoning the weapon into his grasp and stepping in to attack in the same instant. As the blade crackled to life, it was already descending toward her collarbone.

Abeloth would not be killed so easily. She spun around, swinging Ben like a club. It was all Luke could do to shift his strike and cleave through her shoulder instead of his son's head, and even then Ben's swinging hips caught him under the arms, and Abeloth sent them both tumbling toward the fiery cleft in the stage pit.

Luke caught his son in one arm and grabbed for the front wall with the Force. They came down on the first seating tier, more or less on their feet, and facing Abeloth.

If she had ever been anything but a monster, she did not look it now Her eyes ware blazing pits of silver fire, her wide mouth a gaping cave of fangs. The tentacles on her remaining shoulder ware lashing around her in a wild tempest that was either a defensive pattern or an expression of immortal fury, and she was surrounded by a knee-high ring of shimmering Force energy that seemed to be pouring from her wound.


So

  • Luke isn't sloppy enough to overexert himself into bashing against a shield repeatedly.
  • Luke's defenses are capable of shielding the full brunt of the attack and can reverse it if need be.
  • Luke is fast enough to react and account for any telegraphed attack or even sudden attack.




I could sit here and try and say he bashes through his shield, but I won't do that. Instead, let's go around it.

Here Luke force pulls Abeloth who just tanked his force push. He also takes an extended lightning blast from her and gets up and starts fighting as soon as he lands after a toss.

Apocalypse:

With the first rank of Sith only two steps from the other side of the stack-head, he tossed his blaster behind him and extended a hand, grabbing four Sith ankles in a crushing Force grasp. He pulled them toward the pit.

Three of the Sith found themselves suddenly falling into the stack-head. They screamed and twisted, desperately searching for something they could grab-then plummeted out of sight. The fourth Sith managed to Force hurl himself backward and land on his side of the pit. Before Luke could drag him forward, a glass parang left the scabbard hanging from the man's belt and came flying.

Luke redirected the parang with little more than a thought, but by then Korelei and another Keshiri were in the air over the stack-head, their lightsabers ignited and their eyes fixed on Luke. He lit his own weapon and sprang to his feet, at the same time hitting them both with a Force blast that sent the male Keshiri tumbling back across the pit.

Korelei did not even feel it. She merely swung her lightsaber down to block Luke's slash, then planted a stomp kick square in his chest and sent him sailing down the duct backward.

Luke came down five meters away, a crushing pain in his chest. He struggled to draw breath. Korelei was barely two paces away, her fingers already glowing blue with the Force lightning she was about to hurl. With neither the time nor the strength to leap up, Luke merely reached for her in the Force, then turned his lightsaber toward her midsection and pulled.

They came together in a collision that left Luke's head spinning and his bones aching. He knew his lightsaber had struck home because he smelled scorched flesh. The hilt was wobbling against his hand as Korelei struggled to free herself of the searing blade. He felt a palm press itself to his chest, so he brought his free hand up and grabbed her armя...яtoo late. His entire body sizzled into the joint-crushing grip of a Force lightning strike.

The agony seemed to last forever. Luke could feel his own flesh charring beneath the palm pressed to his chest; he was paralyzed by the lightning, unable to fight free or attack with a head-butt, or even flick his lightsaber blade and finish Korelei. He simply hung paralyzed, one hand clutching her arm, the other pressing the hilt to her chest, wondering how long it would take her to die.

A lot longer than Luke, apparently. Her free arm rose between them, pushing off to create some space. Then she twisted away, hurling him into the duct wall... and sliding off his lightsaber sideways. The act opened a gaping chasm in her torso.

The wound did not even slow her down. Leaving Luke to drop unharassed, she raced down the duct after Corran, who had taken out three of the shield generator's defenders and was using a flashing onslaught of lightsaber attacks to drive the fourth Sith back toward the exhaust port. By the time Luke hit the floor, she was halfway to the next stack-head, her shoulders pivoting awkwardly atop a wound that should have left her lying in a lifeless heap ten steps earlier.

Luke had no time to contemplate the source of her toughness. He could already hear boots pounding on the duct floor as her last two followers rushed to catch up. Still trembling with the aftereffects of her Force lightning, he spun himself around to look the way she had come and saw the pair approaching the nearest stack-head. Because of the duct's low height, their heads and shoulders were hunched over, so they looked more like a pair of baby rancors than Sith.

They must have believed Luke was still incapacitated, becaused they did not even cover each other as they leapt. Such arrogance. He waited until they were over the center of the pit, then waved a hand at the one on the left, using the Force to shove him into the one on the right. Both Sith slammed into the wall of the duct and dropped like stones, their arms flying forward as they tried to snag the edge. Luke flicked his hand in their direction, hitting them with a Force shove that rocked both men backward. They cried out in surprise-or perhaps it was anger-and vanished down the stack.


Showing that's in character:
Vortex:

Luke flicked a finger in Vestara's direction and sent her tumbling toward Taalon, who was limping across the floor toward Ben, one knee buckling every time he placed weight on it. Had the High Lord been at his best, he would simply have redirected the girl straight into Luke. Weakened as he was by his injury and his ongoing transformation, he barely managed to Force-jump over her-and that left him vulnerable.

Luke raised his lightsaber and grasped the Sith in the Force, intending to bring him tumbling into an ignited blade ... then felt something catch him across the ankles. He had no time to be astonished, barely even the nanosecond required to realize Abeloth had survived her fall into the cleft. He merely felt his feet shoot away and found himself dropping face-first.

Luke tucked his chin and managed to flip to his back before he hit the stone floor.



This same Abeloth (with even more damage incurred to her form) tanked a oneness blast from Ben. And this was after Darth Krayt started draining her in Beyond Shadows:

Apocalypse:

The Keshiri was trembling in agony. Greasy dark smoke was rising from a shoulder that had been so badly scorched it looked like a burned nerf roast. Her cheeks were hollow, her complexion was so wan it was pale blue, and her sunken eyes were rimmed in red.

But she was still standing, coming at them across the courtyard's mossy cobblestones.

Even knowing what the woman was, Ben could barely believe his eyes. Vestara had hit her with a bolt of Force lightning powerful enough to take out a Canderous-class hovertank. Still, the avatar had returned to her feet the instant Vestara had been carried too far away from the Font of Power to continue drawing on its power. And now Vestara was standing at his side, shaking even worse than the Keshiri, her complexion still shadowed by its dark energy, her eyes dulled by Force overload.

When the Keshiri snatched her lightsaber off its belt hook and ignited its crimson blade, Ben was almost relieved. It was such a mundane threat that it made him think perhaps Vestara's attack had driven out Abeloth after all-perhaps all they had to fight now was a simple Sith Lord.

Then the Keshiri spoke, and his hope evaporated. "We are done with patience," she said in a thousand voices. "Drink together-or die together."

Ben opened himself to the Force completely, shielding himself from the Font of Power's darkness by drawing its energies through the power of all he loved in the galaxy, through his faith in the Jedi purpose and the promise of the future-through his confidence in Vestara and the sure knowledge that she would soon join him in the ranks of the Jedi Knights. The Force came pouring into Ben from all sides, irresistible and pure, a flood of light and purpose that no being in the galaxy could deny. He felt himself become the Force, a swirl of power and energy, and he focused all that he was on the approaching Keshiri, hitting her with a Force blast that would have knocked a frigate out of orbit.

The blast caught the avatar square in the chest and rocked her shoulders back at least a couple of centimeters. She paused almost noticeably before she took her next step.

Ben staggered back, exhausted, and nearly fell before Vestara's hand clamped around his biceps. She pulled him to his feet and began to retreat, pulling him toward the cloud of steam still enveloping the Font of Power.

"So, Ben, what was that supposed to be?" she asked. "The power of the light side?"

"You didn't do much better," Ben replied. He pulled his arm free and stopped a few meters outside the steam. "And you were drawing on the font."


All of this is accomplished without Luke opening himself fully to the force. Which he was still able to do immediately after taking Abeloth point blanking blasting him to the chest with Lightning:

Apocalypse wrote:
Luke opened fire with his blaster, managing to burn several bolts into the Korelei-thing even at a distance of over thirty meters. Of course, they barely slowed her down.

Luke had to stop the Korelei-thing-he could not bring himself to even think her true name-or the Jedi's last hope of breaching the Temple would be lost. He opened himself to the Force completely, and the energy came flooding in so fast it seemed to lift him, to carry him down the duct on a raging river of power. When he began to gain on his quarry, he fired again, this time pouring so many bolts into her legs that one actually erupted in flame.

And it made no difference.

This thing-this entity-had powers almost beyond comprehension. But he was beginning to comprehend.


So yes, if Luke decides to force pull Valk into his blade, he is going for a ride, and considering Valk died to a saber placed in almost the same position as Luke hit Abeloth with, then he will also die. This is assuming Valk creates some sort of impenetrable barrier that extends to his whole front. Considering his hand was always where Arcann landed, and we saw the "effects" of in the clashes; it seems to extend somewhere around 2 or so feet around his hand. That means it's possible it could be snaked around without going behind his back. Think of it like Captain America's shield.

5:11



This isn't the best showing of Luke's but it does show his precision. He gets tired of Brakiss and beats him easily with a precise Saber cut.

Jedi Under Siege wrote:
He heard the battle continuing in the jungles and longed to get back to his trainees. The meeting with his former student had been no more than a distraction; it was leading nowhere. "This has gone on long enough, Brakiss. You may either surrender or I'll defeat you directly, because I have work to do. I need to get back to defending my Jedi academy."

Brakiss showed the faintest glimmer of uncertainty in his normally calm and peaceful eyes when Luke drove in, this time intending to win. Luke struck again with the lightsaber, always maintaining his focus and drive, not letting anger take control, doing only what he wished to do.

The Master of the Shadow Academy defended himself, and Luke saw his chance to strike. He altered his aim just slightly, not striking the energy blade itself. He could have swung lower to take off the hand of his former student, much as Darth Vader had cut off Luke's own hand-but Luke didn't want to maim Brakiss in such a way. He needed only to ruin his weapon.

His lightsaber struck across the top of Brakiss's handle, just below the terminus of the energy beam and above the knuckles of the grip. The top two centimeters of the spiked-claw end of Brakiss's lightsaber sprayed off, sheared away in a smoking, molten mass.

Brakiss shrieked and dropped his sparkling lightsaber to the ground, where it lay useless, smoldering, no longer a weapon, simply a hunk of components... none of which worked.



Brakiss manipulates Starfire from an actual star a year earlier with his own power and no Sith Meditation Sphere/Corsair. I know it's not 1-to-1 of Force Power and Saber correlation,  but it seems worthy of a mention considering we're wanking two people that just stood there watching Valk shoot lightning at them.

Lightsabers:

Gazing at the stormy suns, Brakiss raised his arms to each side, spreading his fingers. His silvery robe flowed around him as if knit from silken spiderwebs. He stared into the swirling flares of the Denarii Nova. "Observe, Zekk-and learn."

Closing his eyes, the Master of the Shadow Academy began to move his hands. Zekk watched through the observation port, his green eyes widening.

The ocean of rarefied incandescent gases between the dying stars started to swirl like arms of fire... writhing, changing shape, dancing in time with the hand motions Brakiss made. The dark teacher was manipulating the starfire itself!

He whispered to Zekk without opening his eyes, without observing the effect of his work. "The Force is in all things," Brakiss said, "from the smallest pebble to the largest star. This is just a glimmer of how Naga Sadow reached out to the stars and delivered a mortal wound five thousand years ago. "

"Could you make the sun explode?" Zekk asked in awe.

Brakiss opened his eyes and looked at his young student. His smooth, perfect forehead creased. "I don't know," he said. "And I don't believe I ever want to try."

Zekk remembered the way Brakiss has enticed him to experiment with his innate Jedi powers, by giving him a flarestick and showing how simple it was to draw shapes in the flames with the Force. Here in the Denarii Nova, Brakiss had done the same thing-only on a scale the size of a star system.


And here's a couple of feats Luke's accuracy, speed, and agility:

Vortex:
Luke grabbed Taalon in the Force and sent him sailing toward the door in a high arc. The snap-hiss of an igniting lightsaber confirmed that Ben understood what Luke intended. By the time Luke had his own weapon in hand, his son was Force-leaping into combat, his blue blade tracing an arc that an exhausted and weakened Taalon would be hard-pressed to avoid.

Thinking they might win this battle after all, Luke thumbed his own blade to life and spun to attack Abeloth-and that, of course, was when the crackle of Force lightning rang out from the door, where Vestara was standing. Ben cried out in surprise and anguish, then two distinct thuds sounded behind Luke, his son slamming into one wall and Taalon into another. A terrific pop echoed across the hall, and Taalon bellowed in pain.

Luke was already on Abeloth, launching a vicious thrust kick. She took it like a durasteel wall, then her arm flew up to rake at his eyes. Luke was ready, and his blade burned through the limb as though it were nutripaste.

"Luke!" The cry came in Akanah's voice, the terror unmistakable. "Don't! It's me! Akanah!"

Luke knew better than to believe her, even for a heartbeat. He continued his swing, sweeping the blade across at thigh level, and felt it slice into a leg. Abeloth shrieked in a dozen voices and spun away, falling toward the tiers of sunken seating. He used a Force nudge to send her arcing toward the cleft in the stage floor and lost sight of her against the glow of the magma.

Allies:

The Sith had betrayed them. Vestara had used her injury to try to play on his feelings for her, to keep him out of the way while her father attacked his. Out of the corner of his eye, he could see Taalon and the other remaining Sith using the Force net technique-the technique Vestara had suggested-not to try to stifle Abeloth's powers, but to try to trap the now seriously struggling Abeloth, even as Luke was using his own mastery of the Force to destroy her. And it was with a fierce sense of pride and love that Ben realized that, despite the odds, his father was winning.

The net was working. It was starting to stifle her ability to use the Force. He could see it in the terror on Abeloth's face, feel it in the wild flickering of her Force aura. And Luke was fighting as Ben had never seen him before, pain and love and duty grim on his face, darting and leaping, moving his lightsaber so swiftly it was a blur. Ben let out a shout of delight and continued to press the attack on Gavar Khai, who no longer was smirking and gloating, but instead felt genuine concern that he might not make it out of this alive.

The Swarm War:

Determined to reach Lomi Plo before she drained his lightsaber's power cell, Luke sprang down the corridor and leapt off the carnage heap to attack. Lomi blocked his first pass with her white lightsaber. Then, in place of the purple lightsaber she had left in Jacen at the end of their last meeting, she ignited a familiar-looking green blade-the lightsaber Raynar had confiscated on Woteba. Luke's light-saber.

"Now you're just ticking me off," Luke said.

Lomi clacked her mandibles and hissed, then launched a deadly low-high-low combination with her flashing blades. Luke parried, ducked, and jumped, then brought an elbow up under her mandibles and sent her staggering back, all four arms flailing as she struggled to catch her balance on her mismatched legs.

Luke whipped his blade around, cocking it for a death slash across her middle-then had a prickle of danger sense between his shoulder blades and tried to spin away. He almost made it.

Something heavy and huge slammed into his shoulder-a shatter gun pellet?-and sent him tumbling across the floor past Lomi Plo's feet. He tried a reactionary slash as he rolled by, only to discover that was he was no longer holding his lightsaber, and he could not move his prosthetic hand-nor the rest of his arm.

Lomi Plo's two blades began to chop the floor behind him, so he used the Force to accelerate himself and continued to roll, then came to his feet two meters on the other side of her and called his lightsaber back to his good hand.

The weapon arrived just ahead of Lomi Plo, and suddenly Luke found himself on the defensive, being driven into a corner while Raynar Thul-not so impotent after all-used his other hand to fire more shatter gun pellets.

In lightsaber combat, Luke favored two-handed styles, but he could still fight single-handed-even with his weak hand-just as well as anyone in the academy. What he could not do, however, was fight wounded and weak-handed against twin blades while a second party fired a steady stream of hard-to-deflect shatter gun pellets at him. In short, Luke was desperate.

So he dropped to his side and caught Lomi Plo's human leg in a scissoring motion between his feet. The knee bent backward and popped with a sickening crunch.


She fell, squealing in pain and clacking her mandibles-and redoubled her attacks, slashing so ferociously with her twin blades that Luke's lone hand barely had the strength to block.

Of course, Control picked that moment for an important announcement from the Megador. "Be advised that three Killik swarms are diverting to attack Healing Star."

Lomi Plo's attacks slackened for a moment, and Luke realized that she was gently probing him through the Force, searching for any hint of fear or doubt. He put the Healing Star-the fleet's main hospital ship-out of his mind and remained focused on the fight. Lomi Plo had almost certainly used the Dark Nest to divert those swarms, to try to create an opening that would give her power over his mind.

Still dodging shatter gun pellets, rolling back and forth on the floor and parrying madly, Luke glanced up the corridor and used the Force to reach into the carnage heap beneath Raynar's feet. He grabbed the largest, heaviest thing he could find-a disabled bugcruncher droid-and jerked it free.

The pile shifted and Raynar crashed down on his back, but Luke barely noticed. He was pulling the droid down the corridor straight at Lomi Plo.

She deflected it easily, of course-but she had to spin away from Luke and wave a hand, and that gave him the chance he needed to Force-spring up the corridor toward Raynar, who was just returning to his feet.

"As I was saying," Luke said, pointing his lightsaber down at Raynar's chest. "You never learn."

Raynar's eyes flashed with alarm and he rolled away-presenting the side of his head for a perfect knockout blow. Luke brought his lightsaber down, but deactivated the blade and flipped it around at the last second to strike at the base of the ear.

The blow landed with a sharp crack that suggested a breaking skull, but Luke had no time to worry about Raynar. Lomi Plo was dragging herself out the hatchway, trying to escape into the general confusion of the Ackbar's recapture. He sprang after her, using the Force to drag her back into the corridor.





So yes, the idea that Luke just ineffectually flails at a barrier is ludicrous to me. If the shield is similar to a hand shield, then Luke is going to be darting in and out and attacking up and down to find an opening. Luke has no issues just dropping down and snapping legs as well, which should prove effective if Valk turtles behind a shield like that. More than likely he just rips Valk into a lightsaber and impales him, but I don't see why he can't bypass a shield without actually trying to break it as well.
LadyKulvax
LadyKulvax
Level Three
Level Three

Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:28 am
Even Thanaton can summon omnidirectional shields that tank any and all damage from a lightsaber. As can many of the far more powerful Force users in SWTOR that are dwarfed by Vaylin, nevermind Tenebrae.

Tenebrae literally planned his death against Arcann and the Outlander, of course he isn't actually trying to cover all his bases when he wants to get backstabbed.

I hope you have a better argument than that because full power Tenebrae should quite easily be capable of time-warping Outlander, Vaylin and Arcann simultaneously and this time there'd be no breaking out of it. Have fun arguing that.
Praxis
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Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:50 am
@Quorian Debatist wrote:Praxis Praxed it with expert Praxcision

Saving this.
NotAA3
NotAA3
Level Four
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Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:44 pm
I know Praxis Praxed it with expert Praxcision, but everyone is joining in, including DC's excellent point, so I might as well.

Lmao.
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Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

on Fri Aug 23, 2019 2:47 pm
@LadyKulvax



What? Tenebrae was just a spirit trying to possess the Outlander. He used Vaylin's absorbed energy to replace his own, to accomplish destroying the Outlander's psyché. The Outlander adopts the Valkorion personality to escape being completely destroyed. The Outlander then has to use the ubercron to recover and face Tenebrae, otherwise the Outlander literally loses all sanity and is banished permanently.

This adds absolutely nothing to your case. You're reciting what happened, which I never denied.


When the Outlander recovers, the spirit of Lord Dramath powered by the ubercron suicide attacks Tenebrae to attempt to weaken him. Then Tenebrae resurrects the spirit of Vaylin to aid in destroying the Outlander's mind but the Outlander uses the ubercron to break Tenebrae's control over her, thus he loses the advantage he had originally. Arcann comes to aid in the willpower battle, where they use the cron* but Tenebrae destroys the ubercron and dominates all three of them at once. Then they win when the Outlander finally exercises the strongest advantage they had; that the mind in question was the Outlander's and it's nigh impossible for an invading spirit to overpower the original host. Thus he lost.

Tenebrae was nowhere near full power.

Except Dramath did nothing more than "pierce Valkorion's armour", which did absolutely nothing following it. Valkorion shrugged it off about five seconds later and was even laughing about the ineffectiveness of it. And Valk was at full power, lol. The only time that Valk has ever been able to one-shot even the likes of Arcann is when he was in a physical form and at his full power. Spirit Valkorion by contrast went from being virtually powerless against chained Vaylin to being able to ragdoll the Outlander in his prime. Vaylin being freed from his control didn't weaken him in any significant way, only robbed him of a specific weapon he could use. If he were weakened as a result of this, Vaylin alone would have been able to ragdoll him as he'd be back at spirit Valkorion level. 


*per Ant, when you use the ubercron, you turn into Revan, Marr and Shan for the Force in balance, dark side and light side respectively.

Unless there's a source for that, that's pure speculation. Satele even sends you this after you kill Valkorion:


You've changed the galaxy forever, Commander. And I'm not talking about Vaylin's defeat or your conquest of the Eternal Throne. Valkorion is gone, never to return. I felt the destruction of his spirit from half a galaxy away--a shockwave in the Force that ripped through me with such power I nearly blacked out. I've never felt anything like it before, but I knew instantly what it meant. At first, I was afraid to believe it was true. But Darth Marr's spirit felt it, too. He confirmed what I'd felt was real, and not some fevered imagining. The master he served for so long--the Sith Emperor that ruled his people for millennia--was no more. This time, he will not return. You were our champion, Commander. Our last hope to defeat an enemy that was immortal and eternal. It was an impossible task, but somehow you found a way. Thank you, and may the Force be with you, always."

Neither Marr nor Satele were even aware you were fighting Valkorion until he was killed, and Revan isn't even mentioned once in KOTFE or KOTET. There's no evidence that Revan, Marr or Satele were even a factor in the final battle beyond speculation. The holocron was able to simulate both light and dark powers by draining Valkorion (since it was created to imprison spirits) and using them against him, not because the aforementioned trio were already involved.

With all due respect, telling me how it happened has absolutely no bearing on the discussion. I'm well aware of the chapter in question and I can definitively say that the majority of what you've said so far is pure speculation and conjecture.
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Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion Empty Re: Luke Skywalker vs Valkorion

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