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HeartoftheForce
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Plagueis vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Plagueis vs Starkiller

July 6th 2019, 8:39 pm
Literally the next line he regens his reserves.

SK won due to Vader's specific weakness to lightning. Not due to having more power.

NevesYtneves
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Plagueis vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Plagueis vs Starkiller

July 6th 2019, 8:40 pm
HP V Grey round 4 should be interesting to say the least.
Meatpants
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Plagueis vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Plagueis vs Starkiller

July 6th 2019, 8:41 pm
Debate me DC Plagueis vs Starkiller - Page 2 2265358366
NevesYtneves
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Plagueis vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Plagueis vs Starkiller

July 6th 2019, 8:48 pm
On what exactly? Better be good because I'm barely staying awake right now and focusing every fibre of my being on my rebuttal to SA.
Meatpants
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Plagueis vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Plagueis vs Starkiller

July 6th 2019, 8:50 pm
Hence why you’re posting on the forums?

And anything lol. What about Plo Koon vs Starkiller
NevesYtneves
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Plagueis vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Plagueis vs Starkiller

July 6th 2019, 8:51 pm
A) SK atomises Koon.

B) Posting on forums requires absolutely no effort on my part.
Meatpants
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Plagueis vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Plagueis vs Starkiller

July 6th 2019, 8:54 pm
I doubt SK could atomise an assassin
KingofBlades
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Plagueis vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Plagueis vs Starkiller

July 6th 2019, 8:57 pm
Is the dark apprentice considered a real character or was he merely an Easter egg. If he is then that supports the theory of Vader holding back or at least not going all out. It's hard to go all out when Vader knows he has the DA as a safety net.
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Plagueis vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Plagueis vs Starkiller

July 6th 2019, 9:44 pm
Greysentinel365 wrote:Hego and SK both scale vastly down from the RotS titans. Depends which you think is worse, being around equal with Vader or slightly superior to TPM Sids.

TPM Palpatine > ROTS Dooku, lol.
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Plagueis vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Plagueis vs Starkiller

July 6th 2019, 9:48 pm
@DarthAnt66 wrote:
Greysentinel365 wrote:Hego and SK both scale vastly down from the RotS titans. Depends which you think is worse, being around equal with Vader or slightly superior to TPM Sids.

TPM Palpatine > ROTS Dooku, lol.
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Plagueis vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Plagueis vs Starkiller

July 7th 2019, 8:02 am
@Greysentinel365

Literally the next line he regens his reserves.

... The next line says he began regaining his reserves not that he regened all of them and by all logic, he shouldn't have given that:

A) At the start of the novel when he had spent 13 days without food and sleep with his Force reserves having run dry he couldn't just recover them instantaneously.

B) After the destruction of The Salvation when he was on the last leg of his Force reserves he once again couldn't just recover them on a whim.

C) GM Luke (undoubtedly the most powerful Force User in the SW saga) in one of the FOTJ novels expends a large portion of his Force reserves yet once again doesn't just wave his hand and recover them and he specifically notes that recovering his reserves requires food, rest and meditation none of which were available to Galen in that scenario and that the process would take several days.

It is also logical that Galen can't recover his reserves at will given that one cannot deplete Force Energy to gain Force Energy (that doesn't make the slightest bit of sense) and Galen had expended a colossal amount of his reserves by unleashing his full potency twice over (the destruction of the Salvation and the destruction of his clones).

SK won due to Vader's specific weakness to lightning. Not due to having more power.

No, he won due to being a better fighter... In order to exploit Vader's weakness to Lightning SK needed to hit him mid-combat which requires skill and it's a feat Vader entirely failed to replicate on him. Moreover, Vader's weakness to Lightning is a weakness he will have in any scenario so it's not like SK can't just do this whenever he likes. Finally, I'd also like to point out that Vader's suit is also the reason he can take the lightning in the first place. You put a normal Force User in that scenario without armor to protect themselves they either:

A) Cry out in pain and give their opponent an opening to exploit (see Anakin vs Dooku in TCW S4).

B) Get sent flying (see Yoda vs Sidious in ROTS).


Last edited by Krayt Dies on July 7th 2019, 5:11 pm; edited 3 times in total
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Plagueis vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Plagueis vs Starkiller

July 7th 2019, 8:05 am
@KingofBlades

Is the dark apprentice considered a real character or was he merely an Easter egg. If he is then that supports the theory of Vader holding back or at least not going all out. It's hard to go all out when Vader knows he has the DA as a safety net.

He's considered a real character though I'm not sure how his existence stops Vader from going all out when the novel specifically states Vader was.


Last edited by Krayt Dies on July 7th 2019, 9:09 am; edited 1 time in total
Master Azronger
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Plagueis vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Plagueis vs Starkiller

July 7th 2019, 8:55 am
@KingofBlades wrote:Is the dark apprentice  considered a real character or was he merely an Easter egg. If he is then that supports the theory of Vader holding back or at least not going all out. It's hard to go all out when Vader knows he has the DA as a safety net.

He's a canonical character.
KingofBlades
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Plagueis vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Plagueis vs Starkiller

July 7th 2019, 11:08 am
Krayt Dies wrote:@KingofBlades

Is the dark apprentice considered a real character or was he merely an Easter egg. If he is then that supports the theory of Vader holding back or at least not going all out. It's hard to go all out when Vader knows he has the DA as a safety net.

He's considered a real character though I'm not sure how his existence stops Vader from going all out when the novel specifically states Vader was.

If he's given orders to the DA to kill SK if he's in danger of being killed, then it takes the sense of urgency out of the fight for Vader. Fighting "all out" which I think is a statement from Vader's perspective and fighting for your life are two different levels of intensity.
Also whether or not SK is > or < Vader isn't that pertinent. It's the degree of their gap. The fact that the duel was as close as it was implies that SK and Vader are in the same general tier. Even if SK is >TFU2 Vader, so is Obi Wan. RotS Obi Wan>Ben Kenobi>/=ANH Vader>TFU2 Vader. There's nothing SK has shown in his fights with Vader that puts him anywhere but Kenobi's league. Thus, Plagueis stomps SK.
KingofBlades
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Plagueis vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Plagueis vs Starkiller

July 7th 2019, 11:17 am
My mistake. Vader going all out was not from his perspective but the narrator's. Doesn't detract my overall point though.
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Plagueis vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Plagueis vs Starkiller

July 7th 2019, 2:10 pm
@KingofBlades

If he's given orders to the DA to kill SK if he's in danger of being killed, then it takes the sense of urgency out of the fight for Vader.

How? There's always a chance that SK could kill him even with the Dark Apprentice as a safety net especially since the DA only kills SK in the Dark Side ending due to the latter taking a baseball bat swing at Vader as opposed to quickly jabbing the saber through Vader's throat.

Fighting "all out" which I think is a statement from Vader's perspective and fighting for your life are two different levels of intensity.

It was from the narrator. Also, Vader was described as uncaring about what was happening around him and was solely focusing on the duel indicating he was taking it very seriously and the novel notes he was doing everything in his power to stop SK (cited previously) which includes fighting his absolute hardest.

Also whether or not SK is > or < Vader isn't that pertinent.

I'm agreed with this though I'm mainly refuting this because the idea that Vader and SK are equals is just something I fundamentally disagree with and in my opinion goes against the entire intent of the novels.

It's the degree of their gap.

Agreed. Their gap is utterly colossal though lol.

The fact that the duel was as close as it was implies that SK and Vader are in the same general tier.

No, it doesn't. As I said on the previous page (and received no reply to) Galen was completely exhausted (he was stated to be more exhausted than a time where he was on the verge of death) rendering the feat utterly useless to draw any conclusions from even if Vader did prove he was superior to Starkiller.

Even if SK is >TFU2 Vader, so is Obi Wan. RotS Obi Wan>Ben Kenobi>/=ANH Vader>TFU2 Vader.

Obi-Wan is like >(>) TFU 2 Vader. SK is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TFU 2 Vader.

There's nothing SK has shown in his fights with Vader that puts him anywhere but Kenobi's league.

Disagreed. His fights with Vader put him far above Kenobi and the fact is Kenobi has no way to even begin to compare to SK unless we use those showings as SK's feats utterly shit all over Kenobi's.

Thus, Plagueis stomps SK.

Still unsubstantiated.
KingofBlades
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Plagueis vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Plagueis vs Starkiller

July 7th 2019, 3:37 pm
Krayt Dies wrote:@KingofBlades

If he's given orders to the DA to kill SK if he's in danger of being killed, then it takes the sense of urgency out of the fight for Vader.

How? There's always a chance that SK could kill him even with the Dark Apprentice as a safety net especially since the DA only kills SK in the Dark Side ending due to the latter taking a baseball bat swing at Vader as opposed to quickly jabbing the saber through Vader's throat.

Fighting "all out" which I think is a statement from Vader's perspective and fighting for your life are two different levels of intensity.

It was from the narrator. Also, Vader was described as uncaring about what was happening around him and was solely focusing on the duel indicating he was taking it very seriously and the novel notes he was doing everything in his power to stop SK (cited previously) which includes fighting his absolute hardest.

Also whether or not SK is > or < Vader isn't that pertinent.

I'm agreed with this though I'm mainly refuting this because the idea that Vader and SK are equals is just something I fundamentally disagree with and in my opinion goes against the entire intent of the novels.

It's the degree of their gap.

Agreed. Their gap is utterly colossal though lol.

The fact that the duel was as close as it was implies that SK and Vader are in the same general tier.

No, it doesn't. As I said on the previous page (and received no reply to) Galen was completely exhausted (he was stated to be more exhausted than a time where he was on the verge of death) rendering the feat utterly useless to draw any conclusions from even if Vader did prove he was superior to Starkiller.

Even if SK is >TFU2 Vader, so is Obi Wan. RotS Obi Wan>Ben Kenobi>/=ANH Vader>TFU2 Vader.

Obi-Wan is like >(>) TFU 2 Vader. SK is >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> TFU 2 Vader.

There's nothing SK has shown in his fights with Vader that puts him anywhere but Kenobi's league.

Disagreed. His fights with Vader put him far above Kenobi and the fact is Kenobi has no way to even begin to compare to SK unless we use those showings as SK's feats utterly shit all over Kenobi's.

Thus, Plagueis stomps SK.

Still unsubstantiated.

He stopped her before she flew off the edge of the roof, at least, but the grisly crunch of bones when she landed was unmistakable. Her head was bent at an impossible angle, and her eyes didn't track him as he ran toward her.

"Juno!"

A black-gloved hand grabbed his shoulder. He pulled away, howling with rage. His fallen lightsabers snapped into his hands and came instantly to life. With both blades moving in tandem, he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief. Darth Vader blocked the blow, but only just. Starkiller pushed, and the Dark Lord stumbled backward.

The Force Unleashed II


This shows SK entered a force rage which has been shown to completely erase fatigue. Vader then proceeded to endure a 30 second long force rage amped lightning barrage with no lethal injuries. If SK was really vastly superior to Vader then a force rage amped lightning barrage lasting as long as it did should have turned Vader into a charred husk.
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Plagueis vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Plagueis vs Starkiller

July 7th 2019, 4:22 pm
@KingofBlades

Before I start addressing your points I have a genuine question: Have you read the novel for TFU 2 because based on this post it doesn't seem like you have?

This shows SK entered a force rage which has been shown to completely erase fatigue.

All the quote you posted indicates is that SK was angry not that he entered a state of Force Rage (entering Force Rage doesn't just require anger but it requires specifically for one to immerse themselves in the Dark Side and fully embrace their anger and hate). Your Force Rage argument honestly requires further substantiation that just a single passage which states SK was enraged.

Anyway, I don't think based on the available evidence SK entered Force Rage but I can't really be bothered going over it myself so I'll link a thread which perfectly summarises my thoughts:

http://www.killermovies.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=649895&pagenumber=7

Read the section "TOO TIRED TO . . . FAIL?".

Credit to DarthAnt66.

Have fun educating yourself.

Vader then proceeded to endure a 30 second long force rage amped lightning barrage with no lethal injuries. If SK was really vastly superior to Vader then a force rage amped lightning barrage lasting as long as it did should have turned Vader into a charred husk.

You are aware that Galen blasts Vader with Force Lightning at the end of the duel by which point he was no longer enraged?

A black-gloved hand grabbed his shoulder. He pulled away, howling with rage. His fallen lightsabers snapped into his hands and came instantly to life. With both blades moving in tandem, he struck out at his former Master using all his strength, all his rage, all his grief. Darth Vader blocked the blow, but only just. Starkiller pushed, and the Dark Lord stumbled backward. Instead of pursuing the attack, Starkiller went to go to Juno, but once again Darth Vader stood in his path.

"Get out of my way. "

"Your feelings for her are not real, " Vader said, nor moving.

"They are real to me. "

Starkiller attacked the Dark Lord again, but this time he was the one driven back.

With a sense of piercing despair, he saw exactly how the fight would go. He and his former Master would dance like marionettes while Juno lay dying-if she wasn't already dead-and the war raged around them, unchecked by this minor tragedy. In the context of the galaxy's suffering, Juno was just one freedom fighter who had died that day-one among many on Kamino alone. Only she hadn't given her life in combat or to save someone less fortunate than herself. She had been snuffed out thanks to the manipulations of one single tortured man, a man whose stubbornness would never allow him to give up, admit fault, or compromise. Starkiller knew nothing about the Dark Lord's origins, but he knew what he had become. More monolith than man, his shadow bestrode the Empire, casting darkness wherever it fell. But what was the source of that scourge? What twisted psychology had brought him to where he stood now-risking his life to prevent the clone of his failed apprentice from coming near the body of the woman he had loved? Sudden understanding burst in Starkiller's mind. This was what Darth Vader had wanted all along. He had been right to fear that Juno was in danger, but not just from clones like him-from Vader, who would use her death to destabilize Starkiller and lead him headlong back to the dark side via anger and despair. Where Starkiller had seen hope, where Starkiller had been willing to sacrifice his own destiny to give the woman he had loved a chance to live, his former Master had seen only opportunity for betrayal- for without Juno, what did Starkiller have left to live and fight for? He had no family, friends, or allies. Juno was always intended to be the catalyst for his downfall. Her precipitous attack had merely brought the critical moment forward. Starkiller saw things very differently. It wasn't Juno who had to die to complete Starkiller's training. It was Darth Vader himself, and he had brought this moment upon himself. Had he been content to let Starkiller go, none of this would have happened. Were he dead or freely searching for Juno, either way, he would never have willingly come back to Kamino. He would have gone anywhere else, and never returned. Darth Vader simply wouldn't let go. The massive cloning exercise itself was proof of that. He had raised Starkiller to be a monster, and he would let nothing get in the way of achieving that outcome. Not even Starkiller's own death. Even if it took a thousand reincarnations and the death of trillions of innocent people, Darth Vader would not give up. His persistence, his unwillingness to accept defeat, was both his greatest strength and his greatest weakness. All the clones were destroyed. As far as Starkiller knew, he was the last one left-so that was one vision averted, at least. No matter what happened, no version of him would fall foul of Darth Vader's vile plan now. They fought like the Sith Lords of old, raging back and forth across the roof of the spire, uncaring what happened around them. Starkiller maintained his efforts to get to Juno, and Darth Vader did everything in his power to stop him. Neither would capitulate. Neither would be the first to break. Their wills were locked. They broke apart, lightsabers hissing in the ceaseless rain. Lightning split the sky into a thousand jagged shapes. Thunder rolled. Neither had noticed the battle fading around them.

"Let me go, " Starkiller said, sounding much calmer than he felt. His heart was pounding, and his lungs burned. "You've taken everything from me. You must see that I will never serve you now. "

"You are wrong. I have given you everything. "

"This?" He gestured at Juno's inert form. He couldn't tell if she was breathing, but he still held out a distant hope. "You have done nothing for me. "

"It is our destiny to destroy the Emperor. You and me, together. "

There it was, Starkiller thought. That promise again. Surely Darth Vader could see that it meant nothing now, after so many times offered in the past, and none of them fulfilled?

Unless... A deeper layer of understanding presented itself. Unless Darth Vader felt exactly the same as he did. What lengths had the Emperor, Darth Vader's Master, gone to in order to create him? And how far would Darth Vader go to get revenge? To attain his own destiny as a Sith?

"The Rebels want to destroy the Emperor, " Starkiller said. "Why not work with them rather th-?"

Vader attacked before he could finish the sentence, a blistering combination of blows that left Starkiller on his back foot. Clearly he had hit a very deep nerve. For a fleeting moment, the plan had seemed almost inspired. With Darth Vader on Kota's side, what couldn't the Alliance accomplish? But it was a dream. The Rebels would never trust the Emperor's apprentice, and Vader was making it very clear that he wanted no part of it either. The vehemence of his response left no doubt about that.

-TFU 2 Novelization


The relevant parts are underlined. Mid-fight Galen realises what Vader is trying to do to him and makes sure not to give in to his rage despair. He even asks Vader to join the Rebellion and you'd have me believe he was rage amped at the end of the fight. lol.
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Plagueis vs Starkiller - Page 2 Empty Re: Plagueis vs Starkiller

July 7th 2019, 5:05 pm
I read the book years ago for a book report. I must admit the game is much fresher in my mind and is coloring my opinions more so than the book. As I don't have the book currently or a pdf of it, my quotes I've used of this book are found by scouring forums.
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July 7th 2019, 5:14 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:I read the book years ago for a book report. I must admit the game is much fresher in my mind and is coloring my opinions more so than the book. As I don't have the book currently or a pdf of it, my quotes I've used of this book are found by scouring forums.

Fair enough. Just note that a lot of what you find on forums is likely taken out of context and so I wouldn't base your opinions on it. Do proper research into the material and form your own conclusions.
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July 7th 2019, 10:43 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
[quote="Krayt Dies"[/quote]

A) At the start of the novel when he had spent 13 days without food and sleep with his Force reserves having run dry he couldn't just recover them instantaneously.

His force reserves are never insinuated as running dry. Nor is any exhaustion or inhibition noted once he starts his breakout. The entire point of that scene is that SK needed only the force to survive. He was fine.

After the destruction of The Salvation when he was on the last leg of his Force reserves he once again couldn't just recover them on a whim

False again. This is the passage of his awakening after the Salvation

Starkiller's eyes jerked open. Where was he? All was dark around him. He smelled smoke and his body felt as though it had been hit by an asteroid. The last thing he remembered was tightening the Force shield around him and destroying the Salvation so it wouldn't kill Juno. He was somewhere on Kamino, then. But his mind remained full of strange images and feelings that he had never experienced before.

Kashyyyk. Trandoshan slavers. His parents... ?

He tried to shrug them off. They had been dead for a long time, and the living mattered more. But he was struck by this brief glimpse of the woman who had given birth to him. Tall, with short brown hair and a physique honed by years of training, she, too, had been a Jedi Knight, like her husband. She had been a warrior, and yet she had loved her son as well. She had loved him and most likely died defending him and the Wookiees they had befriended. And until this moment, he had never known she existed or that his father had made a promise he couldn't keep.

Where had the memory come from?

It didn't matter. She didn't matter. Starkiller had to get moving, or the promise he had made to himself would also go unfulfilled.

- TFU II Novel


Any more exhaustion you would like to make up out of nowhere?

GM Luke (undoubtedly the most powerful Force User in the SW saga) in one of the FOTJ novels expends a large portion of his Force reserves yet once again doesn't just wave his hand and recover them and he specifically notes that recovering his reserves requires food, rest and meditation none of which were available to Galen in that scenario and that the process would take several days.

Which isn't due to force reserves being inherently slow to recover. It had to do with

1. He had just fought fucking Abeloth. Had been drained, brutalized, had a ceiling dropped on him etc etc etc

2. Said injuries were the actual thing he was recovering from. Likewise continuing in spite of them is the problem.

3. It's just plain inconsistent.

In Dark nest The Joiner King, Luke undergoes an exertion of the force that literally Palpatine's him

Luke continued to maintain both illusions, the Force pouring through him like fire, burning more fiercely every moment. He was drawing more energy than his body was conditioned to endure, literally burning himself up from the inside. It was not really a dark side act-to a modern Jedi, the dark side was more a matter of intent than deed-but it felt that way to him. According to Mara, this was what happened to Palpatine, and Luke believed her. He could feel himself aging-his cells weakening, the membranes growing thin and the cytoplasm simmering, the nuclei coming apart.

.........

She activated a mirror section and looked back at him. "How're you feeling?" "Like I grabbed a powerfeed," he said. "Why is that so much harder than pushing a Star Destroyer around?" Mara smiled. "Just don't make a mess on my flight deck." Feeling in danger of doing just that, Luke started to rise - then caught a glimpse of himself in the mirrored section of canopy. His face was puffy and wrinkled, his skin sallow and dry, his eyes sunken and baggy and rimmed in red. He was starting to look like Palpatine.

........

Despite a twenty-minute rest trance, Luke still looked like an escapee from a spice mine, with sallow skin and red-rimmed eyes.

- DN: TJK

But the thing to take note of, is that a tewnty minute rest trance is noted as being abnormally long

Force exhaustion is almost always tied to physical injury. Maul has trouble recovering from Raxus due to physical injury, Kenobi shows exhaustion against Dooku due to being tortured and bloodied. And even if you wanted to keep this Luke crap going, pretty much all instances you regularly cute I have already checked. Luke shows exhaustion immediately after the fact and is fine the next scene. As SK is.

It is also logical that Galen can't recover his reserves at will given that one cannot deplete Force Energy to gain Force Energy

Except that's not how refilling force reserves work. You don't have to expend energy to regain it. You just open yourself to it.

No, he won due to being a better fighter... In order to exploit Vader's weakness to Lightning SK needed to hit him mid-combat which requires skill and it's a feat Vader entirely failed to replicate on him.

If SK could do this so easily he would have done it any other time throughout the rest of the fight. You're also forgetting the context of the feat

But the same was true in reverse. And when Vader forced Starkiller onto his back foot and raised his lightsaber to strike him down, Starkiller fired a lightning blast into the side of Vader's armor that was so concentrated, even the new insulation couldn't absorb it.

The Dark Lord stiffened, betrayed by his extensive prosthetics. The distraction lasted only a moment, but it was enough. Starkiller knocked his blade out of the way and moved in to strike.

SK lost the lightsaber duel. But notable here is that Vader was stiffened by his cybernetics. It wasn't that Vader was unable to react. It's that his cybernetics literally prevented it. That's what gave Starkiller his opening. The fact that after he stopped the attack Vader would be paralysed for a moment afterwards.It's also worth noting that SK required familiarity with Vader for this to work.

Finally, I'd also like to point out that Vader's suit is also the reason he can take the lightning in the first place.

Not really true. We have instances in the mythos of character taking lightning and continuing forward. Notably Jaden Korr, Luke, Kyle. Hell earlier in the novel (when he didn't have the insulation) Vader did it

A burst of lightning arced from Starkiller's fingers. Too late, the Dark Lord raised his lightsaber to catch the attack. Lightning crawled up and down his chest plate and helmet, provoking a painful whine from his breathing apparatus. The servomotors in his right arm strained.

Starkiller had only a split second before his former Master repelled the attack.

- TFU II Novel

In TFU one Vader was able to take lightning blasts as well.

A) Cry out in pain and give their opponent an opening to exploit (see Anakin vs Dooku in TCW S4).

If this were true Dooku have killed Anakin there and then.

B) Get sent flying (see Yoda vs Sidious in ROTS).

Which would give the opponent time to recover before the firer closed the gap.

The novel gives explicit mention that Vader was only encumbered due to his cybernetics. Vader's own pain tolerance would no doubt carry him through armour or not.
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July 8th 2019, 7:28 am
Grey ragdolling.

R.I.P HP.
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July 8th 2019, 7:31 am
@Greysentinel365

I'm gonna be away for a week and the Wi-Fi where I'm going isn't the greatest so I might not get back to you this week. If not I'll try and respond when I get home which will be the week after.
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July 8th 2019, 7:43 am
Wow, it’s gonna be a quiet week.
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July 8th 2019, 8:27 am
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