Suspect Insight Forums
Suspect Insight Forums
Would you like to react to this message? Create an account in a few clicks or log in to continue.

Go down
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users. Empty A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users.

on July 28th 2020, 9:12 am
So I see around the net that there's this notion that Non-Force Users can fight Force Users and usually it's pointed to the movies that show this and more specifically it's pointed to Jango Fett vs Obi-Wan on Kamino as the de-facto evidence of them being able to do so. Now if you're just watching the movie, then of course one might pick up on the fact that yes....Jango did 'fight' Obi-Wan, but at the same time you'll miss the circumstances as to why that was so and in truth see...the fight wasn't really a fight.

Now let's get into this, however before we get into the actual fight, let's look at a scene BEFORE that.




Yoda: "Bring in him, question him we will."

Obi-Wan: "Yes Masters, I will report back when I have him."


So this already sets that Obi-Wan isn't going into this fight to kill or even maim Jango Fett, but merely to bring him in. Already this tells us that he's not even going to bring his full arsenal and abilities to bear, even moreso given that he's a Jedi and they don't exactly do that to begin with. I think people overlook this part and just moreso focus on the fight itself, rather than look at the context before.

Now then let us get to the fight and break it down.




So the 'fight' begins at 15 seconds in with Jango smartly keeping his distance by using his jetpack and laying down fire with his dual blaster pistols, which Obi-Wan deflects and dodges.

At 30 seconds in Jango fires his rocket which sends Obi-Wan flying and then Boba blasts him with Slave 1's laser cannons, this throwing him around from the explosions.

At 47 to 50 seconds in, Jango comes in and Obi-Wan kicks him out of the air to send him crashing to the platform making him lose one of his blaster pistols. 

51 to 57 seconds in, Obi-Wan pretty much floors Jango

1 minute to 1:02 this is the best Jango gets in with fisticuffs, a single headbutt.

At that point, there isn't much a fight at all because Obi-Wan went for his lightsaber and then got dragged around by Jango who used his jetpack and whipcord. I should point out that key scene, Obi-Wan turned his attention AWAY from Jango to get his weapon, which was the only reason he even got into that position in the first place.

Jango then gets floored again by Obi-Wan, losing his jetpack in the process, he tries to shoot Obi-Wan only to get kicked off the platform before catching himself and releasing Obi-Wan and thus this...'fight' ends.

This entire 'fight' lasts all of...maybe a couple of seconds at best. Before that? Jango was playing keep away of himself with Boba helping, which I think people overlook at how much Boba actually helped.

You could argue that Jango thought he was going to have an advantage at that point due to Boba's aid, but he was sorely wrong as we see because as soon as he gets within melee distance, he gets wrecked with only getting a single headbutt in.

Yet people cite this as a 'good' showing for Jango? Yeah, it might be a good showing of his arsenal and how quick he can apply it to the situation, but the only good thing he really did was knock Obi-Wan back with his missile which he only has 1 of. When his missile was gone? That was basically it for him.

I mean if you wanna count Jango dragging around Obi-Wan as part of the fight?....Well ok, but then you see how quickly Obi-Wan turned that on him? Pretty quick and Jango lost his jetpack because of it.

When you break this down, you can see that a Non-Force User can't exactly fight a Force User at least not straight up without prep time. At best? The Non-Force User can turn a struggle to a holding back trained Force User with the equipment they have and how they use it.

Let's look at another scene of Jango where he kills a Jedi Master.



Even just going by the movies, this scene makes 0 sense and just because it's from the movies, doesn't mean it isn't infailable with what we know. Movies can have things that don't make sense or just happen because it does.

So here at the start, Coleman is facing DIRECTLY at Dooku.

At 1 second in he turns just as a bolt is near him and deflects 2 simultaneous bolts, one right after the other away. His attention at this point now on Jango. A 3rd blaster bolt is fired within a pause from the first two which kills Coleman and then another as he falls to his death.

Now let's get this straight here. Coleman can deflect 2 simultaneous bolts being fired at him while his attention was on Dooku, yet for some reason unable to deflect a 3rd shot that compared to the first 2 coming right after one another, should feel like forever? See how that doesn't add up at all? Just because Jango is a character that is more pronounced within the movie compared to the dinosaur like Jedi, doesn't mean that he is exempt from scenes that make no sense and we're just suppose to 'go with it' without any sort of logic. Especially when taking into account what we see Jedi do overall within the movies.


=====

Mind you folks, this is just looking at the movies, just purely the movies. If we look at the Expanded Universe? It makes less sense that Non-Force Users should be able to fight Jedi or Sith or really any Force User at all. At best one could argue, a Non-Force User could only fight a Jedi because the latter is taught to restrain themselves lest they fall to the Dark Side.

One should also carefully examine these encounters to see if there aren't any circumstances surrounding them.

Of course now SW authors will depict stories differently obviously, I mean that's all well and fine to tell A STORY. Let's look at a different example apart from SW.

Let's take Superman! He has all these powers right? Some of his rogues gallery shouldn't even touch him or even give him much a fight given who he is and yet? They do. Superman has the capability to outsmart Lex Luthor and Brainiac and he has at times when the writers call for it, but majority? They don't have Superman using his full intellect nor none of the many great powers he has. This doesn't take away however, that Superman when called for can use his mind.

You can apply this logic to Force Users in SW stories, different authors of SW, just like different authors in DC and Marvel comics, will write what they see fit. 

Now I know people will say "but Jango and Boba Fett are great characters and blah, blah."

Yeah they are...that's not what I'm getting at, the Fetts have their own fantastic feats in their own right. You'll have stories of them fighting Jedi. But tell me, out of how many stories that the Fetts are in, how many times have they actually fought those types?

VS how many times they are fighting against those more on their level? IE: Other Non-Force Users. Hm? Anyone? I'm pretty sure the latter would outdo the former. 

In which case, the former would mostly be outliers of their actual majority of appearances. You could still use them in VS battles? Personally unless specified? I would say no, because it isn't consistent with what the Fetts the majority of the time go up against, they don't regularly go up against Force Users. Just because Jango and Boba are fan favorite characters, isn't gonna give them any sort of pass.

That's like saying Spider-Man can beat Hulk or Silver Surfer when he encountered them, but realistically? He wouldn't be able to do so because generally he's not at their level at all. You wouldn't use Spider-Man fighting against them as actual evidence in a VS scenario because it doesn't add up.

You have characters in DC/Marvel sometimes fighting above their weight class, but they wouldn't actually be able to given what we know of the set of characters fighting.

A VS battle should have logical reasoning and not go off of what a story told which in the end only exists to tell a story. But in a fight that isn't surrounding a story? That won't fly at all.

This thread is getting a bit long winded, so I don't wanna go anymore than I have to. But draw your own conclusions folks, if I sway some thoughts that's fine, if I don't, then that's fine too. I'm just throwing my 2 cents finally on this whole Non-Force User vs Force User shtick.
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
Moderator

A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users. Empty Re: A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users.

on July 28th 2020, 11:15 am
Shouldn't this really be in blogs instead?
RhoyneDelta
RhoyneDelta

A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users. Empty Re: A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users.

on July 28th 2020, 11:25 am
It's definitively true that even by the movies force users are generally below non-force users, that being said even AotC Kenobi is well-above a average force user and Coleman Trebor was a council master, specialising in Soresu. (lmao) After that jango also forces Windu to jump back through an attack with his flamethrower. So it's not too far of a stretch to say that average force users are fair game as far as the movies are concerned.

There is also the general portrayal of the jedi. 200 jedi, including Mace Windu, Sora Bulq, Kit Fisto, Luminara Unduli, Ki-Adi, Bultar and many others attack the geonosian arena with the element of surprise, but still get fucking decimated by droids which are shooting pretty simple and staightforwardly, without them seemingly being able to jump into the ranks or heave each other their telekinetically. The fodder jedi are falling like leaves from a simple blaster bolt barrage. Then the clone troopers swoop in and are framed as their great saviors  In Ep 3. councilmaster Ki-Adi is also shown nigh-instantly getting overwhelmed by a few troopers. (granted shocked, but he had a few seconds to adjust) From the movies  alone it's understandable that someone could think non-force users can beat average force users and content with high-level ones imo.

We also don't see other elite non-force users fight jedi so Jango killing Trebor, being relevant in a fight to WIndu and being able to content with Kenobi briefly are pretty much all we have, that makes it harder to count the Trebor shit out. The jedi generally don't do very impressive things in the movies, except the top five or so.


The comparison with DC/Marvel and so forth is valid when talking about the wider context of the EU, but too me that ain't saying much  they are kinda shitty and inconsistent when it comes to that stuff so it's not a high bar.
'
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users. Empty Re: A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users.

on July 28th 2020, 11:42 am
@RhoyneDelta

I was mainly just looking at the movies specifically at least regarding when people say "look, Non-Force Users can fight Force Users" showing that...not really. Taking EU context and applying that to the movies? Trebor's death makes even far less sense.

Also Jango contending with Obi is kinda a big stretch to me honestly.

As far as the Arena battles, that's kind of a whole different thing. That's a massed battle and just from the movies alone, the droids just kept coming and coming to overwhelm the Jedi with sheer numbers until they were down to a total handful, naturally so since the Arena had an entire droid factory underneath. Much different than a 1 v 1 here. The same with Mundi, who you could also argue while surprised wasn't at 100% of what he normally would be, since it appears he had been fighting for awhile given his appearance.

Also yes, DC and Marvel are inconsistent, but everything in fiction that spans across decades eventually will be, especially if there's a lot of writers. What I'm getting at is, outliers do exist within SW and should be treated carefully.

@Nute_Chethray

Yeah that was my bad, I should have moved it to blogs, but I didn't catch it in time before realizing where I posted.
RhoyneDelta
RhoyneDelta

A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users. Empty Re: A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users.

on July 28th 2020, 12:02 pm
@Zenwolf

The thing is that in the movies specifically we only have Jango as an example of a elite non-force, non-cyborg fighter and he contends withKenobi, Mace (somewhat) and kills Trebor. Under these circumstances you can't really shake the Trebor thing off as an accident. Average jedi are featless, useless fodder (the droids are not even densely  packed) There is also this fight  (from 2:34 to the end of the video)



Mace is afraid and runs away from the beast, which is too fast for him, chases him down and sends him  flying. Jango then tanks far more attacks from it than Mace ever did and kills it, only afterwards is he defeated by Mace. I think most SW fans have almost bleached this from their mind, because the fight against the beast is so pathetic, but by the movies alone this can easily be seen as Jango being portrayed as close to Mace who is literally the second strongest of all the jedi. Thats after he killed  a councilmaster. Being inferior to Kenobi is practically a low-end feat for Jango at this point. By the movies alone Jango is portrayed far above a average force user. Also sure Mundi was not at 100% but it's still embarassing for a councilmaster.

Also of course "everything has inconsistencies" my point was that DC and Marvel have more than a lot fo other things and therefore not a high bar.
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users. Empty Re: A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users.

on July 28th 2020, 12:19 pm
@RhoyneDelta

Alright sure, I can see that. So then it's just at that point, we should then separate the movies from the EU when taking in particular scenes from the movies such as this one. Unless we really wanna believe that scene + whatever the EU has said about Mace Windu and shown him to do.

If we're suppose to follow by what the movies portray, since this is the highest level of Canon. Then this means all of the C-canon works of the past 30+ years are null and void, thus all the writers and Lucas(since he did approve some of the stories that writers did send him and he looked them over) are wrong.

Or the fact that Jango is somehow superhuman, despite the fact we aren't given any sort of basis as far as backstory to him either in the movies or C-canon works. Just that in the latter, we know he was trained as a Mandalorian and becoming the best...but then if training can give you superhuman stats, then that just opens up a whole other can. In regards to the movies, all we know is that he is just some bounty hunter and chosen as a Clone template since he was paid and nothing else.
RhoyneDelta
RhoyneDelta

A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users. Empty Re: A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users.

on July 28th 2020, 12:27 pm
@Zenwolf

Yeah, the EU and movies are not really able to coexist in some cases and I think people should not hold the movies on too high of  a pedestal. It's kinda funny in some  debates where you can see people hammer on the canon tiering to get max benefit out of some accolade while also arguing for a much higher level of power then was ever remotely shown by a movie character.
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users. Empty Re: A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users.

on July 28th 2020, 12:44 pm
@RhoyneDelta wrote:@Zenwolf

Yeah, the EU and movies are not really able to coexist in some cases and I think people should not hold the movies on too high of  a pedestal. It's kinda funny in some  debates where you can see people hammer on the canon tiering to get max benefit out of some accolade while also arguing for a much higher level of power then was ever remotely shown by a movie character.

Right, you could perhaps rationalize how a character acted within the movie VS a C-canon work, but it generally the movies just can't work together with them. It's the same with TCW and T-Canon, it can't work with C-canon either. It can slightly work with just the movies, seeing as the Force Users there seem more like what they appear within the movies barring a couple of instances.

Yeah the movies are the foundation, the rock of which the EU was built off of, but that doesn't mean one has to take it fully. The writers of the EU certainly didn't and in some cases, actually explained why what happened in the movie happened....or of course just made the scene even make less sense. If the writers didn't really have to follow the movies, then why should we?

Lucas certainly knew about what was going on and if he was controlling, he would have said something. But did he? No of course he didn't, he let the writers do what they wanted and make a huge universe while using the movies as a basis.

Though going back to the Non-Force vs Force User, it's clear that in a 1 v 1, they shouldn't be able to do so especially when taking into account EU works, barring environmental or prep advantages.
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
Moderator

A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users. Empty Re: A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users.

on July 28th 2020, 1:26 pm
As for the topic you already know I heavily disagree on your views on forceusers vs nonforceusers. Jango is by all EU works built up as a jedi killer, infact it presents him killing forceusers as the reason he became the clone template. Boba is as well, fighting jedi in CW, hunting jedi in the purge (off-screen), fighting Vader, being noted by Jaina to have killed jedi, etc. I'd mention SWTOR but lorewise thats just a mess in general. There's the mandalorian wars (Ultimate in particular beating Alek and fighting Revan), Galen struggling with Chop'aa despite being near his prime, the morgukai, commandos competing with jedi, etc. 

Its difficult for nonforceusers to beat forceusers, but not impossible. But instead of dismissing those that do, you should instead realise that this just means that they are particularily skilled, not that its PIS or something like that.
RhoyneDelta
RhoyneDelta

A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users. Empty Re: A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users.

on July 28th 2020, 1:31 pm
@Zenwolf wrote:
@RhoyneDelta wrote:@Zenwolf

Yeah, the EU and movies are not really able to coexist in some cases and I think people should not hold the movies on too high of  a pedestal. It's kinda funny in some  debates where you can see people hammer on the canon tiering to get max benefit out of some accolade while also arguing for a much higher level of power then was ever remotely shown by a movie character.

Right, you could perhaps rationalize how a character acted within the movie VS a C-canon work, but it generally the movies just can't work together with them. It's the same with TCW and T-Canon, it can't work with C-canon either. It can slightly work with just the movies, seeing as the Force Users there seem more like what they appear within the movies barring a couple of instances.

Yeah the movies are the foundation, the rock of which the EU was built off of, but that doesn't mean one has to take it fully. The writers of the EU certainly didn't and in some cases, actually explained why what happened in the movie happened....or of course just made the scene even make less sense. If the writers didn't really have to follow the movies, then why should we?

Lucas certainly knew about what was going on and if he was controlling, he would have said something. But did he? No of course he didn't, he let the writers do what they wanted and make a huge universe while using the movies as a basis.

Though going back to the Non-Force vs Force User, it's clear that in a 1 v 1, they shouldn't be able to do so especially when taking into account EU works, barring environmental or prep advantages.
I agree with everything except the last part. Jango achieved his performance against Windu and Trebor two councilmaster, one of which the number two of the order withoutprep or environment. He only had those against Kenobi, who is also well above a normal force-user and he could still fight him somewhat h2h and escape from him. He has 3 feats against force users, two of which put him above low-mid council member, one of which against Kenobi is still above a average jedi. In the context of the movies alone, without EU works factored in, special killers like Jango are far above a regular force user.
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users. Empty Re: A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users.

on July 28th 2020, 1:43 pm
@Nute_Chethray wrote:As for the topic you already know I heavily disagree on your views on forceusers vs nonforceusers. Jango is by all EU works built up as a jedi killer, infact it presents him killing forceusers as the reason he became the clone template. Boba is as well, fighting jedi in CW, hunting jedi in the purge (off-screen), fighting Vader, being noted by Jaina to have killed jedi, etc. I'd mention SWTOR but lorewise thats just a mess in general. There's the mandalorian wars (Ultimate in particular beating Alek and fighting Revan), Galen struggling with Chop'aa despite being near his prime, the morgukai, commandos competing with jedi, etc. 

Its difficult for nonforceusers to beat forceusers, but not impossible. But instead of dismissing those that do, you should instead realise that this just means that they are particularily skilled, not that its PIS or something like that.

So then what are we suppose to take this? That these certain people are superhumans themselves because.....reasons? While at the same time we have those same guys, fighting at speeds that can't be perceived by human eyesight? Or pulling off crazy Force feats?

Skill only goes so far, you can be as skilled as you want, but if a guy is 5x faster than you in speed, that skill is gonna amount to nothing because he's going to see you moving in slow motion or as a statue.

Skill doesn't save these Non-Force Users from being rag dolled either by TK either. So what then? It's not PIS there?

Now if we wanna go with this notion that Jango, Boba and who else that have fought with Force Users are Superhumans....then ok I'll get behind that, but we gotta stop calling them just skilled trained humans.

@RhoyneDelta

I dunno if I really put Windu as a feat for Jango, the only thing he did was light Windu's cloak on fire who was busy with SBDs and then...he got his head sliced off. Trebor within the movies alone sure I'll give you I guess, though I still feel it doesn't make sense unless Jango's blasters are magic.
RhoyneDelta
RhoyneDelta

A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users. Empty Re: A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users.

on July 28th 2020, 1:52 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Zenwolf

sigh, we have been over this already. The performance against the beast clearly also implies that he is somewhat close. Also again average jedi are complete useless, featless foidder in the movies his performance against Kenobi, Trebor and Mace are all above a average jedi. Being better than a dozen jedi still would not be super impressive. It might feel wrong and make no sense but Jango is very blatantly above average jedi. Heck going by movie feats alone Voldemort solos the jedi order.
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users. Empty Re: A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users.

on July 28th 2020, 1:59 pm
@RhoyneDelta wrote:@Zenwolf

sigh, we have been over this already. The performance against the beast clearly also implies that he is somewhat close. Also again average jedi are complete useless, featless foidder in the movies his performance against Kenobi, Trebor and Mace are all above a average jedi. Being better than a dozen jedi still would not be super impressive. It might feel wrong and make no sense but Jango is very blatantly above average jedi. Heck going by movie feats alone Voldemort solos the jedi order.

I'll give a compromise, I'll agree by movies Jango is above the average Jedi since we really only focus on the more upper ones anyway. However I'm still thinking of him contending with Obi-Wan is a bit...iffy, or at best a loose sense of the word.
RhoyneDelta
RhoyneDelta

A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users. Empty Re: A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users.

on July 28th 2020, 2:03 pm
@Zenwolf Eh okay, they wrestled with each other and Kenobi did not easily incap him, he landed a blow that visibly affected Kenobi to a significant degree, I would call that contending, but I will say Kenobi is clearly superior
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users. Empty Re: A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users.

on July 28th 2020, 2:09 pm
@RhoyneDelta wrote:@Zenwolf Eh okay, they wrestled with each other and Kenobi did not easily incap him, he landed a blow that visibly affected Kenobi to a significant degree, I would call that contending, but I will say Kenobi is clearly superior

That's fair.
The Slick Obi
The Slick Obi

A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users. Empty Re: A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users.

on July 28th 2020, 3:41 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Zenwolf wrote:
@Nute_Chethray wrote:As for the topic you already know I heavily disagree on your views on forceusers vs nonforceusers. Jango is by all EU works built up as a jedi killer, infact it presents him killing forceusers as the reason he became the clone template. Boba is as well, fighting jedi in CW, hunting jedi in the purge (off-screen), fighting Vader, being noted by Jaina to have killed jedi, etc. I'd mention SWTOR but lorewise thats just a mess in general. There's the mandalorian wars (Ultimate in particular beating Alek and fighting Revan), Galen struggling with Chop'aa despite being near his prime, the morgukai, commandos competing with jedi, etc. 

Its difficult for nonforceusers to beat forceusers, but not impossible. But instead of dismissing those that do, you should instead realise that this just means that they are particularily skilled, not that its PIS or something like that.

So then what are we suppose to take this? That these certain people are superhumans themselves because.....reasons? While at the same time we have those same guys, fighting at speeds that can't be perceived by human eyesight? Or pulling off crazy Force feats?

Skill only goes so far, you can be as skilled as you want, but if a guy is 5x faster than you in speed, that skill is gonna amount to nothing because he's going to see you moving in slow motion or as a statue.

Skill doesn't save these Non-Force Users from being rag dolled either by TK either. So what then? It's not PIS there?

Now if we wanna go with this notion that Jango, Boba and who else that have fought with Force Users are Superhumans....then ok I'll get behind that, but we gotta stop calling them just skilled trained humans.

@RhoyneDelta

I dunno if I really put Windu as a feat for Jango, the only thing he did was light Windu's cloak on fire who was busy with SBDs and then...he got his head sliced off. Trebor within the movies alone sure I'll give you I guess, though I still feel it doesn't make sense unless Jango's blasters are magic.
To be fair, the whole "training" + "skill = dumb ass superhuman feats has been a thing in fiction for a very long time. Prime Example: Batman. Completely, absolutely human (something DC just LOVES to emphasize), but he can PUNCH BULLETS OUT OF THE AIR. He can see & react to an object that a human brain can't solely through "skill". 

So, yes we are just supposed to accept that the Fetts can do stupid superhuman crap because "reasons". It is the only way writers can justify normal characters fighting the godlike beings they create.
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
Moderator

A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users. Empty Re: A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users.

on July 28th 2020, 3:58 pm
@Zenwolf

Definetly disagree. The only logical issue in this is that you apply real life rules to SW humans and SW rules to forceusers. The fact is that SW humans are humans in a fantasy verse where the same rules don't apply as in reality. Think of it like an Arthurian legend or The Three Kingdoms, its not all realistic by our standards, but if a novel/comic says "Here's a people of nonforceusers that can kill jedi in open combat" then it shows that it is possible. 

Boba/Jango/Ultimate/etc. aren't superhuman by SW standards, they're just ridicolously skilled and in incredible physical shape. However for real people that kind of skill or physicality is obviously impossible to reach.
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users. Empty Re: A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users.

on July 28th 2020, 4:03 pm
@The Slick Obi

Yeah but see, at the same time. Writers peg Batman as just being a normal man, that he's suppose to be only peak human, not superhuman. A peak human isn't gonna be dodging or reacting to bullets, this shows in other characters who are peak human that are unable to do so. Hence him doing so, out of...how many appearances of where he doesn't? Would be considering outliers and not something he can do, because we have see him also get shot and unable to react to much slower things like fists. Unless you wanna say fists in comics are now bullet speed, but that's illogical.

@Nute_Chetray

But the Fetts and others would have to be superhumans in order to keep up with Jedi and their movements, if you strip away their training, equipment...they are at the end of the day just humans, with nothing special to their bodies that would indicate that they are any different from another.

You can apply RL rules to fictional settings when it fits, gravity is gravity. There isn't gonna be any difference unless it's specifically stated to be.

Unless of course as said, their training suddenly gives them superhuman abilities.
The Slick Obi
The Slick Obi

A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users. Empty Re: A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users.

on July 28th 2020, 6:32 pm
@Nute_Chethray explained it better than I did: different universes have different standards when it comes to what is considered to be possible by "normal" people. Batman, for instance, has consistently dodged bullets since the '70s. Or, to use a Marvel reference, Daredevil (whose only power is echo-location) has (on numerous occasions) smacked away bullets with a billy club. Or, to get even more ludicrous, Captain America - officially "Peak" "Humam" yet on more than one occasion he has: dodged/deflected bullets, stated that he sees bullets in slow motion, moved faster than the human eye could follow, & has performed such strength feats as throwing his shield with enough force to sever a panzer's turret from its chassis.
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users. Empty Re: A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users.

on July 28th 2020, 7:17 pm
@The Slick Obi wrote: explained it better than I did: different universes have different standards when it comes to what is considered to be possible by "normal" people. Batman, for instance, has consistently dodged bullets since the '70s. Or, to use a Marvel reference, Daredevil (whose only power is echo-location) has (on numerous occasions) smacked away bullets with a billy club. Or, to get even more ludicrous, Captain America - officially "Peak" "Humam" yet on more than one occasion he has: dodged/deflected bullets, stated that he sees bullets in slow motion, moved faster than the human eye could follow, & has performed such strength feats as throwing his shield with enough force to sever a panzer's turret from its chassis.

He has consistently done it huh? Could you not also attribute it just to aim dodging? That is also a thing ya know, out of the 10k+ published appearances, does Batman consistent truly dodge or block bullets? I bet it's not going to be the majority of his appearances. I wouldn't really say Captain America is just peak considering he has the SSS which as noted made him a super soldier in every aspect and he has the feats to showcase it, his running speed is certainly far faster than any peak runner for example as is his strength, the SSS evolves over time from what I've seen. It made him the ultimate physical condition of what a human could become which continues to evolve.

But alright, since I'm clearly the minority in all this I guess I'll just drop this. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this, I still think it's a bit silly to just take everything at face value, but if you wish to do so that's fine.
Nute_Chethray
Nute_Chethray
Moderator
Moderator

A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users. Empty Re: A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users.

on July 29th 2020, 3:51 am
@Zenwolf https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kgW7pBKcU4k  3:30 is a good example of Batman dodging after the bullet already has fired. 


"There isn't gonna be any difference unless it's specifically stated to be."

Exactly. And in the case of for example mandalorians and morgukai, they are specifically stated to be able to kill jedi in fights.
Zenwolf
Zenwolf

A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users. Empty Re: A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users.

on July 29th 2020, 6:26 am
@Nute_Chethray

Yes in that instance, but it's not consistent with his character, he doesn't regularly do that, he at best aim dodges, otherwise he's not just a human, but a superhuman within the DCverse.

The difference between a human Mandalorian and a Morgukai is not only are they different species, is that Morgukai have stats above a human within SW. They also have weapons and armor along with training specifically to fight Jedi. Mandalorians don't train to fight Jedi specifically.

Yeah we might here that Boba has killed Jedi from Jaina, but as I recall we don't know the specifics, for all we know he could have had everything in his favor prep wise or environmental wise who knows. For Jango the ONLY instance of him actually killing multiple Jedi was during the middle of a battle(meaning environmental circumstances), then 1 instance of him doing a 1 on 1 after the huge fight was over.

He also kills a fallen Komari Vosa, but we're not sure of those details either since it's all game mechanics and you know how games can be different from actual lore interpretation.

So at best we have 2 instances of Jango killing Jedi without any sort of circumstances surrounding the fight(I'll let you have Vosa)  and 1 of them is within the same issue of comics VS how many other instances of his large majority of appearances does he actually kill a Jedi? Because I'm just recalling those and nothing else, the majority of the time is him taking on blaster wielding foes.

This would say that Jango regularly doesn't kill Jedi so that would be an outlier to his other feats and what he's actually capable of, with supposedly being just a human and not a superhuman within the narrative.

Another thing right, if he does have the ability and reactions great enough to fight Jedi which he would have to be superhuman, why don't the Clones have his exact same stats? They should all be superhuman themselves, the only thing the Kamino's did was speed their growth...and yet the Clones are all just human, the Kamino's specifically had to tamper with Jango's DNA to make actual superhuman Clones.

Either that or in OS, the Jedi were nerfed for the story which wouldn't be surprising actually since writers do that and thus if in a VS scenario we take away the writer and actually write a Jedi to their full capability....then no real human is gonna stand a chance, Mandalorian or not.

Just because Batman takes on the JL at times in the comics, doesn't mean he can actually do so. Otherwise this would completely destroy his character and what he's suppose to be doing, his rogues gallery would all be but fodder to him, yet he struggles with them constantly.

Or at best you separate the Batman from his solo stories to the stories in JL, because they ramp up Batman within those stories, just to make him relevant.

But we're just going around in circles at this point and it doesn't seem like we're gonna convince eachother, so I'm just willing to drop this and agree to disagree.
Sponsored content

A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users. Empty Re: A look at the SWU: Non-Force Users vs Force Users.

Back to top
Permissions in this forum:
You cannot reply to topics in this forum