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Level Three
Level Three

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

May 23rd 2020, 2:25 pm
Who win
Level Six
Level Six

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

May 23rd 2020, 2:30 pm
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

May 23rd 2020, 2:31 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Vaylin is far more powerful and should be comparably skilled per Arcann and Outlander scaling. She wins.

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

May 24th 2020, 4:32 am
Mismatch in the favor of Vaylin.

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

May 24th 2020, 12:07 pm
Vaylin ragdolls
Level Two
Level Two

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

May 28th 2020, 4:22 pm
Vaylin pretty much crushes, yeah.
Level Five
Level Five

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

May 29th 2020, 1:26 am
Vaylin because of her scaling vastly above anything that Caedus have.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level Two
Level Two

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

May 29th 2020, 1:28 am
Vaylin creams
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

May 29th 2020, 5:39 am
@S_W_LeGenD @TenebrousWay @XSUPREMEXSKILLZ: I'd appreciate reasons for your claims. Vaylin probably wins but I'm curious as to why it's a mismatch or stomp in her favour.
The Adventurous Jedi
The Adventurous Jedi
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

May 29th 2020, 5:51 am
Message reputation : 100% (6 votes)
Caedus is sub-Aurra Sing, get over it. Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 815462187
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

May 30th 2020, 8:04 am
ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote:@S_W_LeGenD @TenebrousWay @XSUPREMEXSKILLZ: I'd appreciate reasons for your claims. Vaylin probably wins but I'm curious as to why it's a mismatch or stomp in her favour.

Not sure how much I appreciate being ignored.

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

May 30th 2020, 9:07 am

Let us consider a situation in which both Darth Caedus and Vaylin had to contend with a group of Force-users out in the open (quantity and quality) to draw a parallel of sorts.

Let us start with Darth Caedus.

I recall Darth Caedus defeating a Jedi Strike Team of virtually unknowns with the exception of Kyle Katarn. Although such teams significantly vary in actualized power and capabilities, and the one which confronted Darth Caedus was not among the better ones, but the latter's accomplishment in this fight does warrant PRAISE and does show that he was head-and-shoulders above the (standard) Jedi of the time.

Nevertheless, Darth Caedus wasn't able to bring those Jedi to their knees with a single blast of power or even close. Darth Caedus used the environment to his advantage; he managed to incapacitate Kyle Katarn by pulling a speeder in the latter's direction, and killed another Jedi (Thann Mithric) by deflecting a blaster bolt towards his chest. Others chose to flee afterwards. I would say that Darth Caedus's dueling skills made much difference for him (he is undeniably very good with a lightsaber). This fight might impress you but I would contend that Darth Traya have superior combat-applicable showings; she smoked 3 notable Jedi Masters (Vrook Lamar; Kavar; Zez-Kai Ell) with her vast Telekinetic and Force Drain powers, and eliminated scores of Sith Assassins without even lifting a finger on a separate occasion. And Meetra Surik was somehow able to defeat/kill Darth Traya in a fight even though the latter is/was canonically stronger.

Darth Caedus defeated Onimi after achieving Oneness (not under normal circumstances), and managed to defeat Mara Jade Skywalker with mental tricks in another fight (I was expecting better). To his credit, he had excellent tolerance for injuries much like Hero of Tython, and his Telekinetic abilities are on the level of Aryn Leener (Count Dooku+). Nevertheless, his demonstrations of raw power pale in comparison to that of Vaylin.

Now let us switch to Vaylin.

Consider Vaylin's fight with a massive force of the Knights of Zakuul:

With the rising flames, Senya finally witnessed the true carnage Vaylin had unleashed on the camp: dozens of Knights – bodies mutilated and mangledhad been tossed haphazardly amongst the scattered wreckage of ships and shuttles torn asunder. The full breadth of the slaughter sent a chill down her back; grim evidence of the horrors her daughter was capable of.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Knights of the Eternal Throne: A Mother's Hope

That is actually an understatement.

That is like Vaylin crushing dozens of powerful Jedi with all the heavy gear in the mix, and merely burping afterwards. I do not recall a lone Jedi and/or Sith overwhelming so many Force-users of that caliber in a fight in 'any' medium. Each Knight of Zakuul is supposed to be more than a match for a standard Jedi Knight.

Even the TRIO of The Outlander and his allies such as Sith Lord Lana Beniko and Senya Tirall (one of the most powerful Knights of Zakuul), were not able to handle a dozen Knights of Zakuul in an open fight. Vaylin however destroyed dozens...

The aforementioned TRIO was able to raise the gigantic Gravestone vessel from the surface while it was firmly entrenched in the ground (many meters deep). It would take a much formidable force to handle this TRIO in an open-ended confrontation since each was capable of taking on and defeating multiple opponents in a fight without breaking a sweat in personal capacity.

As emphasized in the LORE, Knights of Zakuul were supposed to sweep entire groups of Jedi and/or Sith if spotted let alone a single Force-user. Knights of Zakuul are/were very effective warriors as a group because of their unique philosophy which encourage sharing of knowledge and does not restrict them in regards to what they are supposed to learn:

Zakuul Knights don't limit themselves to studying one side of the Force, instead teaching balance and exploration. Knights have their own relationships with the Force, but are encouraged to share their findings with the rest of the order. No area is deemed "weak" or "a dangerous path"--they are all parts of a larger, limitless power.

- Codex entry (Knights of Zakuul)

That is why the Jedi and/or Sith were unable to defeat Knights of Zakuul in the battlefield (confirmed by Satele Shan and Darth Marr respectively), and The Eternal Empire was able to conquer the entire galaxy consequently. The Jedi tend to restrict themselves to ways of the Light whereas Sith undermine each other with infighting.

Although, some Jedi and Sith had the reputation of being army-busters, conventional forces of the Empire and/or the Republic are not in the league of the Knights of Zakuul; relatively low-end accomplishments instead.

Revan is stated to be an army-buster, right? Well, 4 x Basilisk war droids were sufficient to stop him in his tracks and potentially kill him (Revan needed allies in this situation to help him get through). Being an army-buster does not suggest that a Force-user can literally SOLO an army with mere gestures - lot of plot elements are involved in the mix.

A powerful Force wave of Darth Malgus killed everybody in the vicinity but merely lurched a transport nearby (this guy send Aryn Leener packing across the hall with a blast of power in a fight otherwise who have very impressive telekinetic showings of her own). Darth Malgus is openly/officially recognized as one of the strongest Sith to have [ever] existed, yet, he doesn't hold a candle to Vaylin in strength and otherwise; Vaylin slaughtered dozes of Knights of Zakuul and dismantled their ships and shuttles like tissue paper in a fight.


There are numerous other angles and ways to establish superiority of Vaylin in this contest.

Vaylin is actually Valkorion TIER, a fact that some members of this forum have to come to terms with.

I realize that I have to fix Vaylin's respect thread. I will do the needful soon.
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

May 31st 2020, 7:47 am

Thanks for the response. I appreciate the effort but there's a number of problems with it, and this post will go through them in detail.

I recall Darth Caedus defeating a Jedi Strike Team of virtually unknowns with the exception of Kyle Katarn. Although such teams significantly vary in actualized power and capabilities, and the one which confronted Darth Caedus was not among the better ones, but the latter's accomplishment in this fight does warrant PRAISE and does show that he was head-and-shoulders above the (standard) Jedi of the time.

Nevertheless, Darth Caedus wasn't able to bring those Jedi to their knees with a single blast of power or even close. Darth Caedus used the environment to his advantage; he managed to incapacitate Kyle Katarn by pulling a speeder in the latter's direction, and killed another Jedi (Thann Mithric) by deflecting a blaster bolt towards his chest. Others chose to flee afterwards. I would say that Darth Caedus's dueling skills made much difference for him (he is undeniably very good with a lightsaber). This fight might impress you but I would contend that Darth Traya have superior combat-applicable showings; she smoked 3 notable Jedi Masters (Vrook Lamar; Kavar; Zez-Kai Ell) with her vast Telekinetic and Force Drain powers, and eliminated scores of Sith Assassins without even lifting a finger on a separate occasion. And Meetra Surik was somehow able to defeat/kill Darth Traya in a fight even though the latter is/was canonically stronger.

A) You draw no tangible connection between the team Caedus fought and the 3 masters Traya ragdolled, you simply assert that Traya's adversaries were better on the basis of the Jedi Caedus faced being virtual unknowns... without acknowledging that this doesn't actually demonstrate their inferiority, it merely makes them more vague and unquantifiable. We can't really draw a conclusion either way so the comparison falls flat.

B) You're comparing the power Caedus can summon while being pressured in a duel with Kyle that was diverting his attention (Somebody who he classed as an actual threat) vs the potency Traya can bring to bear without having the intensity of a heated duel divide her focus.

C) Caedus is still not recovered from his duel with Luke as of this point:

Legacy Of The Force: Fury wrote:Caedus hadn't felt the blaster bolt coming. His concentration was slipping.

And this madman of a Falleen Jedi was starting to beat down his parries. His strength was slipping.

He wasn't yet recovered from his duel with Luke.

D) Luke suggests that without all the aforementioned context (Injuries and diverted attention) a Knight would be injured by a single attack from Jacen:

Legacy Of The Force: Fury wrote:"You can. You should. Jacen is ... extraordinarily dangerous. If he sees you, he might devote only a single, negligent attack to you. Such an attack would distract a Jedi Master, hurt a Jedi Knight... and kill you."

What's especially interesting is Luke's view on the attitude Caedus would have in performing such an assault. He states it would be "negligent", which indicates Jacen would be "failing to take proper care" in performing the move (Ergo, it's a casual demonstration that's not in any way indicative of Caedus's full potency).

E) Fury isn't Jacen's prime. He grows astronomically more powerful following it, so the Vaylin comparison is irrelevant even if it stands.

and managed to defeat Mara Jade Skywalker with mental tricks in another fight (I was expecting better).

There's nothing connecting TOR folk and Mara so it's a moot point. That aside, Jacen experiences insane growth following this as established here.

To his credit, he had excellent tolerance for injuries much like Hero of Tython, and his Telekinetic abilities are on the level of Aryn Leener (Count Dooku+).

Her superior in Malgus can't manage this:

The Old Republic: Deceived wrote:Malgus rushed through the large double doors and into the landing bay. Vrath Xizor’s ship, Razor, rose on its thrusters toward the open roof doors. Two Imperial shuttles sat idle on the landing pad.

“Eleena!” he shouted, hating himself for his vulnerability but unable to contain the shout.

He reached out with the Force as Razor continued its rise, tried to take it in his mental grasp. Its ascent slowed. He held forth both of his arms, made claws of his hands, and shouted with frustration as he sought to hold back the power of the ship’s thrusters.

He felt a tightness in his mind, the string of his power being drawn taut, stretching, stretching. He would not release the ship. Its thrusters began to whine. He held it, teeth gritted, sweat soaking his body, his breath a dry rattle through his respirator.

And then the string snapped and the ship flew free, lifting clear of the roof doors.

Meanwhile Dooku is throwing around 215m cruisers well before his prime. Something which Caedus scales above. So yeah, I very much doubt that her TK is comparable to Dooku's or Caedus's.

To substantiate my point about Caedus's superiority to Dooku, we already know the Count is a joke to Anakin per the ROTS novel:


Revenge Of The Sith wrote:Skywalker leapt from the balcony. Even as the boy hurtled downward, Dooku felt a new twist in the currents of the Force between them, and he finally understood.

He understood how Skywalker was getting stronger. Why he no longer spoke. How he had become a machine of battle. He understood why Sidious had been so interested in him for so long.

Skywalker was a natural.

There was a thermonuclear furnace where his heart should be, and it was burning through the firewalls of his Jedi training. He held the Force in the clench of a white-hot fist. He was half Sith already, and he didn't even know it.

This boy had the gift of fury.

And even now, he was holding himself back; even now, as he landed at Dooku's flank and rained blows upon the Sith Lord's defenses, even as he drove Dooku backward step after step, Dooku could feel how Skywalker kept his fury banked behind walls of will: walls that were hardened by some uncontrollable dread.

Dread, Dooku surmised, of himself. Of what might happen if he should ever allow that furnace he used for a heart to go supercritical.

Dooku slipped aside from an overhand chop and sprang backward. "I sense great fear in you. You are consumed by it. Hero With No Fear, indeed. You're a fraud, Skywalker. You are nothing but a posturing child."

He pointed his lightsaber at the young Jedi like an accusing finger. "Aren't you a little old to be afraid of the dark?"

Skywalker leapt for him again, and this time Dooku met the boy's charge easily. They stood nearly toe-to-toe, blades flashing faster than the eye could see, but Skywalker had lost his edge: a simple taunt was all that had been required to shift the focus of his attention from winning the fight to controlling his own emotions. The angrier he got, the more afraid he became, and the fear fed his anger in turn; like the proverbial Corellian multipede, now that he had started thinking about what he was doing, he could no longer walk.

Dooku allowed himself to relax; he felt that spirit of playfulness coming over him again as he and Skywalker spun 'round each other in their lethal dance. Whatever fun was to be had, he should enjoy while he could.

Then Sidious, for some reason, decided to intervene.

"Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it!" he barked in Palpatine's voice. "Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill him!"

Dooku thought blankly, Kill me?

He and Skywalker paused for one single, final instant, blades locked together, staring at each other past a sizzling cross of scarlet against blue, and in that instant Dooku found himself wondering in bewildered astonishment if Sidious had suddenly lost his mind. Didn't he understand the advice he'd just given? Whose side was he on, anyway?

And through the cross of their blades he saw in Skywalker's eyes the promise of hell, and he felt a sickening presentiment that he already knew the answer to that question. Treachery is the way of the Sith.

This is the death of Count Dooku:

A starburst of clarity blossoms within Anakin Skywalker's mind, when he says to himself Oh. I get it, now and discovers that the fear within his heart can be a weapon, too.

It is that simple, and that complex.

And it is final.

Dooku is dead already. The rest is mere detail.

The play is still on; the comedy of lightsabers flashes and snaps and hisses. Dooku & Skywalker, a one-time-only command performance, for an audience of one. Jedi and Sith and Sith and Jedi, spinning, whirling, crashing together, slashing and chopping, parrying, binding, slipping and whipping and ripping the air around them with snarls of power.

And all for nothing, because a nuclear flame has consumed Anakin Skywalker's Jedi restraint, and fear becomes fury without effort, and fury is a blade that makes his lightsaber into a toy.

The play goes on, but the suspense is over. It has become mere pantomime, as intricate and as meaningless as the space-time curves that guide galactic clusters through a measureless cosmos.

Dooku's decades of combat experience are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay is useless. His vast wealth, his political influence, impeccable breeding, immaculate manners, exquisite taste-the pursuits and points of pride to which he has devoted so much of his time and attention over the long, long years of his life-are now chains hung upon his spirit, bending his neck before the ax.

Even his knowledge of the Force has become a joke.

It is this knowledge that shows him his death, makes him handle it, turn it this way and that in his mind, examine it in detail like a black gemstone so cold it burns. Dooku's elegant farce has degenerated into bathetic melodrama, and not one shed tear will mark the passing of its hero.

But for Anakin, in the fight there is only terror, and rage.

Only he stands between death and the two men he loves best in all the world, and he can no longer afford to hold anything back. That imaginary dead-star dragon tries its best to freeze away his strength, to whisper him that Dooku has beaten him before, that Dooku has all the power of the darkness, to remind him how Dooku took his hand, how Dooku could strike down even Obi-Wan himself seemingly without effort and now Anakin is all alone and he will never be a match for any Lord of the Sith-But Palpatine's words rage is your weapon have given Anakin permission to unseal the shielding around his furnace heart, and all his fears and all his doubts shrivel in its flame.

When Count Dooku flies at him, blade flashing, Watto's fist cracks out from Anakin's childhood to knock the Sith Lord tumbling back.

When with all the power that the dark side can draw from throughout the universe, Dooku hurls a jagged fragment of the durasteel table, Shmi Skywalker's gentle murmur I knew you would come for me, Anakin smashes it aside.

His head has been filled with the smoke from his smothered heart for far too long; it has been the thunder that darkens his mind. On Aargonar, on Jabiim, in the Tusken camp on Tatooine, that smoke had clouded his mind, had blinded him and left him flailing in the dark, a mindless machine of slaughter; but here now, within this ship, this microscopic cell of life in the infinite sterile desert of space, his firewalls have opened so that the terror and the rage are out there, in the fight instead of in his head, and Anakin's mind is clear as a crystal bell.

In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do.


So he does.

He decides to win.

He decides that Dooku should lose the same hand he took. Decision is reality, here: his blade moves simultaneously with his will and blue fire vaporizes black Corellian nanosilk and disintegrates flesh and shears bone, and away falls a Sith Lord's lightsaber hand, trailing smoke that tastes of charred meat and burned hair. The hand falls with a bar of scarlet blaze still extending from its spastic death grip, and Anakin's heart sings for the fall of that red blade.

He reaches out and the Force catches it for him.

And then Anakin takes Dooku's other hand as well.

Dooku crumples to his knees, face blank, mouth slack, and his weapon whirs through the air to the victor's hand, and Anakin finds his vision of the future happening before his eyes: two blades at Count Dooku's throat.

But here, now, the truth belies the dream. Both lightsabers are in his hands, and the one in his hand of flesh flares with the synthetic bloodshine of a Sith blade.

And that the duel as depicted in the film lasts around 12 seconds. Kenobi on the other hand goes for much longer and fairs far better:


Revenge Of The Sith wrote:With Anakin's grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking, forcing both their lightsabers down in a slow but unstoppable arc, Obi-Wan let go. Of everything.

His hopes. His fears. His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin. And their lightsabers.

Startled, Anakin instinctively shifted his Force grip, releasing one wrist to reach for his blade; in that instant Obi-Wan twisted free of his other hand and with the Force caught up his own blade, reversing it along his forearm so that his swift parry of Anakin's thundering overhand not only blocked the strike but directed both blades to slice through the wall against which he stood. He slid Anakin's following thrust through the wall on the opposite side, guiding both blades again up and over his head in a circular sweep so that he could use the power of Anakin's next chop to drive himself backward through the wall, outside into the smoke and the falling cinders.

Anakin followed, constantly attacking; Obi-Wan again gave ground, retreating along a narrow balcony high above the blacksand shoreline of a lake of fire.

Mustafar hummed with death behind his back, only a moment away, somewhere out there among the rivers of molten rock. Obi-Wan let Anakin drive him toward it.

It was a place, he decided, they should reach together. Anakin forced him back and back, slamming his blade down with strength that seemed to flow from the volcano overhead. He spun and whirled and sliced razor-sharp shards of steel from the wall and shot them at Obi-Wan with the full heat of his fury. He slashed through a control panel along the walkway, and the ray shield that had held back the lava storm vanished.

Fire rained around them.

Obi-Wan backed to the end of the balcony; behind him was only a power conduit no thicker than his arm, connecting it to the main collection plant of the old lava mine, over a riverbed that flowed with white-hot molten stone. Obi-Wan stepped backward onto the conduit without hesitation, his balance flawless as he parried chop after chop.

Anakin came on. Out on the tightrope of power conduit, their blades blurred even faster than before. They chopped and slashed and parried and blocked. Lava bombs thundered to the ground below, shedding drops of burning stone that scorched their robes. Smoke shrouded the planet's star, and now the only light came from the hell-glow of the lava below them and from their blades themselves. Flares of energy crackled and spat.

This was not Sith against Jedi. This was not light against dark or good against evil; it had nothing to do with duty or philosophy, religion or morals.

It was Anakin against Obi-Wan.

Personally. Just the two of them, and the damage they had done to each other.

Obi-Wan backflipped from the conduit to a coupling nexus of the main collection plant; when Anakin flew in pursuit, Obi-Wan leapt again. They spun and whirled throughout its levels, up its stairs, and across its platforms; they battled out onto the collection panels over which the cascades of lava poured, and Obi-Wan, out on the edge of the collection panel, hunching under a curve of durasteel that splashed aside gouts of lava, deflecting Force blasts and countering strikes from this creature of rage that had been his best friend, suddenly comprehended an unexpectedly profound truth.

The man he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all...

Obi-Wan still loved him.

Yoda had said it, flat-out: Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again and again; all the while this attachment he denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best friend walked.

Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment...

He let it go.

The lake of fire, no longer held back by the ray shield, chewed away the shore on which the plant stood, and the whole massive structure broke loose, sending both warriors skidding, scrabbling desperately for handholds down tilting durasteel slopes that were rapidly becoming cliffs; they hung from scraps of cable as the plant's superstructure floated out into the lava, sinking slowly as its lower levels melted and burned away.

Anakin kicked off from the toppling superstructure, swinging through a wide arc over the lava's boil. Obi-Wan shoved out and met him there, holding the cable with one hand and the Force, angling his blade high. Anakin flicked a Shien whipcrack at his knees. Obi-Wan yanked his legs high and slashed through the cable above Anakin's hand, and Anakin fell.

Pockets of gas boiled to the surface of the lava, gouting flame like arms reaching to gather him in.

But Anakin's momentum had already swung back toward the dissolving wreck of the collection plant, and the Force carried him within reach of another cable. Obi-Wan whipped his legs around his cable, altering its arc to bring him within reach of the one from which Anakin now dangled, but Anakin was on to this game now, and he swung cable-to-cable ahead of Obi-Wan's advance, using the Force to carry himself higher and higher, forcing Obi-Wan to counter by doing the same; on this terrain, altitude was everything.

Simultaneous surges of the Force carried them both spinning up off the cables to the slant of the toppling superstructure's crane deck. Obi-Wan barely got his feet on the metal before Anakin pounced on him and they stood almost toe-to-toe, blades whirling and crashing on all sides, while around them the collection plant's maintenance droids still tinkered mindlessly away at the doomed machinery, as they would continue to do until lava closed over them and they melted to their constituent molecules and dissolved into the flow.

A roar louder even than the volcano's eruption came from the river ahead; metal began to shriek and stretch. The river dropped away in a vertical sheet of fire that vanished into boiling clouds of smoke and gases.

The whole collection plant was being carried, inexorably, out over a vast lava-fall.

Obi-Wan decided he didn't really want to see what was at the bottom.

He turned Anakin's blade aside with a two-handed block and landed a solid kick that knocked the two apart. Before Anakin could recover his balance, Obi-Wan took a running leap that became a graceful dive headlong off the crane deck. He hurtled down past level after level, and only a few tens of meters above the lava itself the Force called a dangling cable to his hand, turning his dive into a swing that carried him high and far, to the very limit of the cable.

And he let it go.

As though jumping from a swing in the Temple playrooms, his velocity sent him flying up and out over a catenary arc that shot him toward the river's shore. Toward. Not quite to.

But the Force had led him here, and again it had not betrayed him: below, humming along a few meters above the lava river, came a big, slow old repulsorlift platform, carrying droids and equipment out toward a collection plant that its programming was not sophisticated enough to realize was about to be destroyed.

Obi-Wan flipped in the air and let the Force bring him to a catfooted landing. An adder-quick stab of his lightsaber disabled the platform's guidance system, and Obi-Wan was able to direct it back toward the shore with a simple shift of his weight.

He turned to watch as the collection plant shrieked like the damned in a Corellian hell, crumbling over the brink of the falls until it vanished into invisible destruction.

Obi-Wan lowered his head. "Good-bye, old friend." But the Force whispered a warning, and Obi-Wan lifted his head in time to see Anakin come hurtling toward him out from the boil of smoke above the falls, perched on a tiny repulsorlift droid. The little droid was vastly swifter than Obi-Wan's logy old cargo platform, and Anakin was easily able to swing around Obi-Wan and cut him off from the shore. Obi-Wan shifted weight one way, then another, but Anakin's droid was nimble as a sand panther; there was no way around, and this close to the lava, the heat was intense enough to crisp Obi-Wan's hair.

"This is the end for you, Master," he said. "I wish it were otherwise."

"Yes, Anakin, so do I," Obi-Wan said as he sprinted into a leaping dive, making a spear of his blade.

Anakin leaned aside and deflected the thrust almost contemptuously; he missed a cut at Obi-Wan's legs as the Jedi Master flew past him.

Obi-Wan turned his dive into a forward roll that left him barely teetering on the rim of a low cliff, just above the soft black sand of the riverbank. Anakin snarled a curse as he realized he'd been suckered, and leapt off his droid at Obi-Wan's back— Half a second too slow.

Obi-Wan's whirl to parry didn't meet Anakin's blade. It met his knee. Then his other knee.

And while Anakin was still in the air, burned-off lower legs only starting their topple down the cliff, Obi-Wan's recovery to guard brought his blade through Anakin's left arm above the elbow. He stepped back as Anakin fell.

Anakin dropped his lightsaber, clawing at the edge of the cliff with his mechanical hand, but his grip was too powerful for the lava bank and it crumbled, and he slid down onto the black sand. His severed legs and his severed arm rolled into the lava below him and burned to ash in sudden bursts of scarlet flame.

The same color, Obi-Wan observed distantly, as a Sith blade. Anakin scrabbled at the soft black sand, but struggling only made him slip farther. The sand itself was hot enough that digging his durasteel fingers into it burned off his glove, and his robes began to smolder.

While I'm perfectly willing to grant that there's an enormous disparity between Kenobi and Anakin on paper as certain members have suggested, I'm unconvinced that the factors that allowed Kenobi to compete mitigate the extraordinary difference in performance level to the degree people want to suggest. We're contrasting a several minute engagement with one that doesn't even go on for 15 seconds and people believe that the comparison doesn't stand due to stylistic differences and knowledge that works both ways? Seriously?

Moving on from that point, we have Hett throwing down with the same Kenobi shortly following ROTS:


The Life And Legend Of Obi-Wan Kenobi wrote:Hett's hands dropped to his belt and the two lightsabers practically leapt into his gloved hands. He ignited both weapons at once, unleashing their identical green energy beams. He swung fast with the lightsaber in his right hand but Ben blocked it. The lightsabers sizzled loudly as they clashed.

It was fortunate for Ben that he had continued his Jedi exercises on Tatooine, that he had not allowed his reflexes to become dull. He did not think about how long it had been since he had last used his lightsaber in combat. Nor did he consider that he was older than Hett by at least a decade, or Hett's considerable skills with his own weapons, and that the Tusken was far more experienced at fighting in the desert. Ben knew that any such thoughts would probably only get him killed.

As prepared as Ben was for many things, he was not ready to die. Not yet. Not today. Hett brought his other lightsaber in at a sharp angle, forcing Ben to lurch back. Ben gripped his own weapon with both hands as he swung at Hett's legs, but Hett blocked the swipe. There was another loud sizzle as the blades dragged across each other.

Ben gasped as Hett launched a powerful kick to his midriff. The kick knocked Ben off his feet, and as he fell back through the air, Hett hurled one of his lightsabers at Ben's body. Ben clung tight to his own lightsaber as he twisted his body in midair to avoid being struck by the spinning blade of Hett's weapon. The moment Hett's lightsaber whipped past Ben's head, Hett used the Force to retrieve it, drawing it back to his waiting left hand.

As Hett caught the lightsaber, Ben rolled up from the ground and swung out again. Hett blocked the strike with his right lightsaber, then threw his left arm forward to smash his other lightsaber's handle into Ben's jaw. Ben ignored the painful jolt to his head and reflexively brought his blade up high, forcing Hett to block the blow with his right lightsaber and leaving his own midsection briefly exposed. Before Hett could strike with his other lightsaber, Ben kicked him hard in the stomach.

Hett grunted, but he didn't go down. He lashed out again at Ben, kicking up sand as he moved in for the kill. Not one of the mounted Tuskens so much as flinched as they watched the duel, nor did they rally for their chief. They merely watched in silence, waiting for the outcome.

Ben blocked each blow, but he wasn't doing it with ease. Hett was far more experienced at fighting on the sand and in the desert heat. Ben knew that his opponent would never surrender, let alone withdraw. As much as he hoped to avoid killing Hett, he also knew that they couldn't keep fighting indefinitely.

But in the end, Ben knew he wasn't fighting for his own life. He was fighting for Luke's. Quickly raising his left hand, Ben used the Force to push out at Hett, shoving him back through the air as Ben's lightsaber swept up and through Hett's right arm. Hett shouted as his arm fell away from his body. As Hett stumbled back, Ben used the Force to tear Hett's other lightsaber from his left hand's grip. Both of Hett's lightsabers deactivated as they sailed past Ben and landed in the sand behind him.

After which he grows markedly more powerful. Given his performance here I'd say that's indicative of superiority to Kenobi. In spite of this he's still inferior to Caedus as of 41ABY, which grants Caedus scaling to Kenobi, Dooku and the cruiser feat.

What's especially notable about the linked quote is that it positions Caedus somewhere near Yoda and Sids based off him being markedly greater than Kenobi and Dooku, both of whom are firmly outside Yoda and Sheev's one shot range. We're both aware that they're the most powerful Sith and Jedi up to that point, putting them absurdly beyond Traya, who's buried in TOR scaling, so the idea that she's somehow superior to Caedus falls flat on its face. Absolutely nothing you've provided indicates a stomp gap between Caedus and Vaylin, nor does it make it a mismatch like you wish it would be.

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

May 31st 2020, 7:21 pm

Thanks for that effort, I learned more from your well-constructed response so credit where due.

A) The Jedi Strike Team in question encompassed following members:

Jedi Master = Kyle Katarn
Jedi Knights = Thann Mithric; Kolir Hu'lya; Vakin Horn
Jedi Padawan = Seha Dorvald

The Jedi Master was obviously difficult to defeat, and therefore, Darth Caedus capitalized on his surroundings to his advantage in order to incapacitate him. Others not so much.

The following statement:

"You can. You should. Jacen is ... extraordinarily dangerous. If he sees you, he might devote only a single, negligent attack to you. Such an attack would distract a Jedi Master, hurt a Jedi Knight... and kill you." - Luke Skywalker while addressing Seha Dorvald

- THAT is the very definition of being a rank-and-file, my friend.

Those Jedi Knights were/are not counted among the most powerful of their time (each was rank-and-file with a name). Therefore, they are quantifiable enough for me to realize that they are not in the league of some of the most powerful Jedi Knights and Masters of the Old Republic timeline, why should I assume otherwise? You need to give me 'something' to consider and even it might not be enough. 

I shall also point out the fact that a few Jedi Knights prove really powerful, more powerful than many Jedi Masters of the era. There can be exceptions to the rule.

Recall the young Jedi Knight Satele Shan killing 3 Sith Warriors on the spot with a single blast of power in order to prevent Jace Malcom's execution? These were the rank-and-file of the time. And I shall CAUTION that these rank-and-file Sith Warriors were not mooks (I can provide meaningful information in this regard). Even I give the benefit of the doubt to Seha, she would be on the level of these Sith Warriors at best.

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 4433903-6694146671-43846

Luke's statement is rather applicable to Satele as of Hope. Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 2266747095

Satele was powerful, skilled, and fast enough (sheer speed is very important consideration), to singlehandedly cut a swath through an advancing column of Sith-led forces in order to reach Darth Malgus and engage him in a duel in which she brought down a massive tree with a gesture from one hand while holding Darth Malgus at bay with another:

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 4433904-1789308901-43846

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 4433905-4946315276-vJjAM

My take is that that is a far more difficult feat than bringing down a functioning speeder given the fact that she was coping with the strength of Darth Malgus on one hand and the sheer size of the object which she managed to bring down to break the deadlock at the same time. Imagine the magnitude of pressure on her in this situation...

Darth Malgus cornered her once again but she evaded a killing blow from him with her incredible level of speed and maneuvering, and also prevented subsequent effort to impale her with bare hands:

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 4434149-8258502215-Kdrge

Jace intervened at this point, and Satele sent Darth Malgus crashing into a rocky formation and her next attack blew it all apart. In this single battle, Satele have shown greater power and talent than countless Force-users of the mythos.

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 4433906-0972671623-Kee9Q

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 4433907-9699846653-ywdrz

Satele have a number of other amazing feats under her belt including disintegrating a heavily reinforced door with a mere touch:

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 4434402-shan%20on%20point

Can WE make similar claims for the Jedi Knights accompanying Seha? No, not even remotely close.

Only Kyle have hype and substance to his name with decent feats; and Darth Caedus had to find a way to undermine him. However, even Kyle is not on the level of Satele.

B) Question should be why Darth Caedus even had to entertain a lightsaber duel with the aforementioned coalition of Jedi if he was as powerful as you want me to believe?

Darth Traya's raw power in all its glory:-

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 5458092-4714374903-giphy

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 3892034-9ka6g

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 3892035-9ka6x

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 3892038-9ka9b

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 3892041-9kaae

THAT is one of the most powerful applications of telekinesis in the mythos, my friend. THAT is not something you see very often.

They were not some rank-and-file Jedi but well-known Jedi Masters of the time.

"Even the Sith would think twice before attacking Dantooine. There are many Jedi here, including several of the most powerful Masters of the Order. There is great strength within this place." - Bastila Shan

Let us take a look at the abilities of the Jedi Master Vrook Lamar for instance.

He could 'immobilize' Meetra Surik against her will:

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 5733766-5857680065-giphy

He could affect and dominate multiple opponents (Force-users to be exact) in a fight:

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 4434739-5230964731-KRJaD

He even understood dark side abilities such as Force Lightning:

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 7274447-1883888383-giphy

He could heal his wounds:

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 4434737-9536410683-y5gpl

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 5379787-3722651998-44349

He was a master of passive defensive applications:

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 5379788-1688392490-44349

He effortlessly disabled a cage which could restrain many Jedi in his shoes:

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 5568867-7783501089-giphy

He was also proficient in the use of many esoteric abilities such as sever Force among others. And he had no trouble lifting and moving multiple objects with his telekinetic abilities (textual information in KoTOR II). He was directly involved in the rebuilding of the Dantooine enclave which would have required a great deal of telekinetic application given how fast it was completed.

The number of Jedi capable of handling Meetra - the Jedi Exile (Wound in the Force) incarnation - in a fight would be very small (she is counted among the Jedi's greatest), and Jedi Master Vrook Lamar was one of them. Bastila's hype is applicable to him.

I do not think that I have to expand on the abilities of the other Jedi Masters here; each was a powerful Force-user to begin with.

NOTE: Darth Traya was hardly in good shape in view of her past experiences; Darth Nihilus had sapped her powers once from which she had to recover, and Darth Sion had cut off a hand which she did not replace with cybernetics. Therefore, her injuries were accumulating over time. In her last duel, she had lost her remaining hand and the ability to wield a lightsaber with it, and this loss did not hinder her ability to continue to fight as she was able to employ her vast telekinetic powers for the needful.

You do not understand how powerful Darth Traya was/is. She was/is stated to be more powerful than even the Jedi Exile incarnation of Meetra (confirmed in the The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia), and was something to be feared in SWTOR as well (i.e. an ENTITY of sorts at this point in time from whom Darth Baras benefited to great extent to advance his agenda).

Perhaps she allowed Meetra to strike her down? Who knows.

Revan (Reborn) scaling from Darth Traya is not a NEGATIVE for the latter but a measure of his extraordinary powers instead:

Three centuries ago, Revan wielded the dual philosophies of Sith passion and Jedi tranquility to conquer his enemies; he even nearly assassinated the Sith Emperor.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

The aforementioned statement suggest that Revan posit a LEGITIMATE threat to the most powerful Force-users of the mythos.

Revan's ability to wield the dual philosophies of Sith passion and Jedi tranquility to conquer his enemies, is a talent UNIQUE to him among all known Jedi, and make him one of the most formidable combatants ever. The Sith Emperor would have absolutely CRUSHED a lesser foe but Revan was able to give him a fight for his life which is something significant and reinforce the notion that the latter was not hindered by environment factors. Lord Scourge knew so many Sith, but he felt that only Revan had the strength to challenge the Emperor which is a big deal. Revan is an outlier in short.

As I have emphasized before, Darth Traya have shown more power than the likes of Count Dooku and her ability to do this:

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 5325247-2882061282-giphy

And this:

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 5471965-7598304148-9DL3z


It is safe to assert that she is/was one of the most powerful (and dangerous) Sith Lords to have ever emerged throughout history.

Darth Caedus have not shown power on THAT level in 'any' fight or related circumstances. 

In his shoes, Darth Traya would have ragdolled and annihilated the Jedi Strike Team he was up against with her powers; she wouldn't be needing a lightsaber and even a speeder for the needful.

As for the "You're comparing the power Caedus can summon while being pressured in a duel with Kyle that was diverting his attention" part, this is not true (see below).

Darth Caedus did create an opening for himself before he could utilize a speeder as a projectile to undermine his opponents:

He felt Force energy growing within Mithric and Horn. He gestured, telekinetically yanking the Bothan forward, positioning her between him and them. He felt their Force exertion as it was suddenly cut off.

Taken from Star Wars: Legacy of the Force: Fury

At this point, the Jedi Master advanced towards him, but Darth Caedus also withdrew from his earlier position:

Katarn advanced, lightsaber at the ready. Caedus withdrew before him. With part of his awareness, he was keeping track of the four inbound vehicles, plotting their trajectories. . .

Taken from Star Wars: Legacy of the Force: Fury

Darth Caedus then distracted the advancing Jedi Master with a gesture towards him to give him the impression that he would launch a Force push, and his opponent bought into this trick not realizing that the actual attack was coming from above in the shape of a speeder. When Kyle realized his mistake, it was too late for him:

One of the GAG vehicles was circling ahead and to starboard of the descending shuttle. Its arc, intended to put it toward the bow of the shuttle so it could fire on the cockpit, would bring it near the combatants, just a few meters above them. The pilot's maneuver was smooth, the vehicle clearly under control. Caedus could see the Jedi barely registering its presence, since it did not figure into the combat.

Caedus reached out a hand as if intending to hurl Katarn away from him. The Master raised his own hand, a deflecting gesture. But Caedus exerted himself against the oncoming GAG speeder, yanking it down and toward all of them.

A moment's inattention or focus elsewhere. That's all it ever took. By the time Katarn felt the speeder coming toward him-spinning, its stern a mere two meters from his back-it was already too late for him to send a command even to Force-augmented nerves and muscles. His face changed with the awareness of danger.

Then the speeder's port quarter hit his back, hurling him forward to slam into Caedus. The speeder, continuing its out-of-control motion, slid through the location of the other Jedi, knocking Hu'lya to the permacrete, causing Horn and Mithric to leap to safety.

Taken from Star Wars: Legacy of the Force: Fury

The others were like mere spectators [when] Kyle advanced towards Darth Caedus; their lack of experience was clearly showing. Come on you noobs, do something...

Compare THAT to actions of T3-M4 and Meetra when each intervened to 'save' Revan at different intervals when he was in big trouble; this show presence-of-mind and experience.

C) Duly noted, but there are examples of Force-users being MORTALLY WOUNDED, and were still capable of incredible showings.

Before I give an example, I would like to share a relevant quote:

"Your thoughts betray you," Plagueis said. "Do you think that Malak's powers were weakened by Revan's lightsaber? Bane by being encrusted in orbalisks? Do you
think Gravid's young apprentice was hindered by the prosthesis she was forced to wear after fighting him?"

"No, Master."

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

Let us consider Darth Malgus in this context.

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Satele11

Darth Malgus was MORTALLY WOUNDED in that situation:

Malgus's brutal campaign was nearly ended forever when he suffered a crushing defeat battling Jace Malcom, commander of the elite Havoc squad, and Satele Shan on Aldeeran. The Emperor's greatest surgeons and cyberneticists repaired Malgus's broken body and installed a special breathing apparatus to conceal his ruined face.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

However, even with injuries of such magnitude, Darth Malgus still had a lot of fight left in him; he decided to take his chances with a duo of Jedi including one powerful enough to collapse two buildings over him. Even though these buildings had suffered much damage in the war, they were still massive structures and collapsing each would require a great deal of telekinetic proficiency. Jedi Master Kyle Katarn does not have a telekinetic showing of this scale and intensity to his name.

A collapse of such magnitude was not sufficient to defeat (mortally wounded) Darth Malgus:

Malgus stood in a pocket under a mountain of rubble, legs bent, the power from his upraised hands preventing several tons of duracrete and steel from crushing him. Dust made his already troubled breathing more difficult. He coughed as the words of his father echoed in his mind.

He’d been sloppy, so lost in his need for revenge that he’d failed to properly evaluate the Jedi’s power. He’d surrendered his reason to bloodlust. But no more. With an effort of will, he contained his anger, controlled it, made it a whetstone against which he sharpened his power. Using the Force, he blew the rubble up and away from him. It fell with a crash into the adjacent buildings. A Force-augmented leap carried him out and over the heap. The Jedi’s eyes widened as Malgus hit the street. Malgus sneered and charged.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: The Third Lesson

In spit of all that, Darth Malgus still managed to hold so much debris above him and blew it all apart afterwards.

Kyle really struggled to hold a large pile of rocks above his head at one point ("I can't... keep this up for long"); Darth Malgus had more power in him even at his lowest point.

Imagine what Darth Malgus could do when in good shape, and he became FAR more powerful in the years ahead.


Below is a demonstration of an event in relation to the latest duel of Darth Malgus (Onslaught era):

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin SWTOR-Onslaught-Jedi-Knight-Objective-Meridian-Flashpoint-Republic-Solo-Mode

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin SWTOR-Onslaught-Jedi-Knight-Objective-Meridian-Flashpoint-Republic-Solo-Mode-1

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin SWTOR-Onslaught-Jedi-Knight-Objective-Meridian-Flashpoint-Republic-Solo-Mode-2

THAT thing is about the size of a large multi-story building, and would have a mass of thousands of tons. Its fall destroyed the entire Skyscraper beneath.

BEFORE THAT, Darth Malgus was up against some of the most powerful Force-users of the era (more like history) including The Outlander and Jedi Knight Tau Idair. Make no mistake here, Jedi Knight Tau Idair was extremely powerful in the ways of the Force and capable of replicating telekinetic showings of Darth Malgus (depending upon player choices); she is a veteran of the Great Galactic War as well as the Eternal War.

I am not sure why Darth Malgus chose to take his chances with such coalition; this duel left him severely injured once again, and his lightsaber became dysfunctional from the experience.

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin SWTOR-Onslaught-Jedi-Knight-Objective-Meridian-Flashpoint-Republic-Solo-Mode-3

- but he still had a lot of fight left in him, and created the gap he needed to shatter the region:

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin SWTOR-Onslaught-Jedi-Knight-Objective-Meridian-Flashpoint-Republic-Solo-Mode-4

While Darth Malgus was up against overwhelming odds, he fought his way out of the situation. Severe injuries did not hinder Darth Malgus's powers and ability to ALTER the course of a battle when it turned south for him. No wonder Palpatine felt that Darth Malgus's battlefield feats were never duplicated by anybody else.

Darth Malgus, as of the Onslaught era, would also have utterly destroyed the Jedi Strike Team which confronted Darth Caedus, in a number of ways I shall add. Many years before when he fought the Jedi inside the Jedi Temple (Sacking of Coruscant), he was able to cut a swath through their ranks as if they were nothing. However, his powers continued to grow on a daily basis.

Darth Malgus was so proficient in the dark arts that he was the FIRST known Force-user to create a Force Maelstrom with sheer force of will, in a fight:

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Maelst10

It was through knowledge and command of this particular application (sourced from Darth Malgus), that Palpatine was able to create a Force Storm (Wormhole) by his own hand.

D) I do not recall Darth Caedus [one-shotting] Seha and injuring remainder of the Jedi Strike Team with a single blast of power.

Luke was probably exaggerating the nature of the threat in order to CAUTION Seha and her companions that they must not take Darth Caedus lightly. Chances were good that Darth Caedus would kill at least one of them (probably two), and he did.

E) Where in that post it is stated that Darth Caedus grew astronomically since the events of Fury? What I gather from your post is that Darth Caedus was even more injured than before:

The last time he had fought Luke, he had started with a painful kidney wound but two good arms-and barely managed to survive. Now, with a relatively bearable shoulder wound and a single good arm, he had to do more than survive, he had to prevail-because now there would be no mercy at the last minute. This time, his uncle would not care whether he survived as long as Caedus died, because now Luke knew the truth about who had killed his wife.

Taken from Legacy Of The Force Invincible

Secondly; Luke was giving him the benefit of doubt in earlier confrontation, but not this time. But even in this case, Luke chose Jaina Solo Fel to do his bidding and augmented her powers for the needful (i.e. JUKE)? Therefore, not the same thing as Luke himself.

THAT is akin to the difference between Tenebrae himself and an extension of his will identified as the First Son. Not the same thing in my books.

My contention is that Darth Caedus was short on techniques to undermine JUKE.

Consider the following analogy.

When Satele was up against the unnatural form of Revan (i.e. Shadow of Revan), she was able to create virtually impenetrable spherical shield(s) to manage her Battle Meditation efforts as well as to heal her allies during the course of the battle; the environment was unusually strong in the Dark Side, and Revan had numerous tricks and powers up his sleeve here, to the point that even lightsaber(s) were not affecting him.

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 4434358-satele%20shan%20tbh

"[Satele Shan's] Force Barrier [is] immune to all damage, control, and negative effects." - (SWTOR: Shadow of Revan)

Satele learned much from THAT fight anyways, and developed further capabilities and tactics to handle a much powerful (potential) opponent in the future (just in case).

The Outlander raised his blade to strike down Satele (player's choice), and she is/was able to blanket his senses with utter darkness (VOID effect) and teleport to safety:

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 5168793-5110915096-HlHOK

"It's not my time to die. Not yet." - Satele Shan

Satele was not lacking in the raw power aspect either; she had cleared an entire sector of massive trees all by herself [early on]:

"These heavy logs were clearly cut from the surrounding forest, but there are no drag marks to show how they could have been brought to camp." - (attributed to Satele)

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin 5168841-cool

A glimpse of Satele reshaping THAT sector.

Point is that a gifted and talented Force-user is expected to learn from his/her past experiences and make an effort to develop new powers and devise new tactics to increase the likelihood of survival when up against "overwhelming odds."

So what exactly Darth Caedus learn from this FIRST confrontation with Luke? What new powers and tactics he demonstrated in his SECOND fight with the so-called JUKE to make sure that he does not fail this time?

In the case of champions of the Old Republic timeline, just when WE assume that WE have seen it all, they come back and surprise us some more. This is what I find impressive in personal capacity. This is why I CAUTION against LINEAR SCALING practice. There is much more to these champions than A > B > C > D and vice versa.


Yes, Darth Caedus became more powerful than his earlier incarnation when he fought Mara Jade Skywalker, I give you this:

Jacen feels his power in the dark side swell, unlocking new powers, including an unparalleled ability to command and coordinate fighting forces as the former Emperor once did. Fully committed to the Sith path, Jacen assumes the title Darth Caedus.
Jacen has reached a threshold in his Sith potential. He has sacrificed a loved one and the bond of trust between himself and Ben. Lumiya senses this shift in power and decides a further sacrifice is needed to cement Jacen’s rule.

Taken from The Essential Reader's Companion

Although, that does not tell us much about his advances in combat-applicable aspects, but he unlocked new powers at this point including the art of Battle Meditation (i.e. became more powerful as a whole).

He fought Luke next which didn't go well for him (understandable), and he had to fight a Jedi Strike Team afterwards which he managed to defeat (although the Jedi succeeded in tagging him) but this coalition was evidently far beyond [one-shot] territory for him. Your chief counterargument was that Darth Caedus was in bad shape at this point in time, but I provided evidence to the contrary that this aspect have not hindered some of the greatest Force-users before (Darth Traya and Darth Malgus respectively), therefore, this is a NEGATIVE for Darth Caedus, or he is not as strong as you make him out to be. I have also established above that either Darth Traya or Darth Malgus could utterly overwhelm the same Jedi Strike Team with their actualized power in a hypothetical fight (badly injured or not).

--- --- ---

1. THAT feat is representative of a tug-of-war between Darth Malgus and a Starship with its engines active and attempting to get away from him as the Sith Lord was attempting to hold back the power of the its thrusters. This is not the same as moving a stationary Starship, or chugging it like a missile.

2. THAT was Darth Malgus [before] he killed Eleena Daru and experienced a major growth in raw power in the aftermath:

Thinking of Eleena blew oxygen on the embers of his anger. In life, Eleena had been his weakness, a tool to be exploited by rivals. In death, she had become his strength, her memory the lens of his rage.

He resided in the calm eye of a storm of hate. Power churned around him, within him. He did not feel as if he were drawing on the Force, using it. He felt as if he were the Force, as if he had merged with it.

He had evolved. Nothing split his loyalties any longer.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Deceived

Picture this: Darth Malgus (Onslaught) above Darth Malgus (False Emperor) above Darth Malgus (Deceived; Post-Eleena) above Darth Malgus (Deceived; Eleena) above Darth Malgus (Hope) above Darth Malgus (Return)

There is much growth in power to account for [after] THAT feat, and this is also apparent from his demonstrations of power in his latest duel (Onslaught era); see above.

--- --- ---

Count Dooku was able to [flip] one Starfighter over, [move] another, and also [move] a Cruiser (each separately one after the other):

Then he knew.

"This way!" he yelled, as the first vehicle suddenly flipped over. It would have crushed them if Obi-Wan hadn't dashed to the side with Anakin on his heels. He flattened himself against the wall as another vehicle moved, its jagged wing a lethal weapon, capable of slicing them to ribbons. A cruiser suddenly zoomed toward the wall, straight at them.

"Drop!" Anakin and Obi-Wan hit the floor, hugging the stones as the cruiser passed over them and smashed into the wall.

Taken from Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown

- on a world very strong in the Dark Side (i.e. Korriban).

Count Dooku was sensitive to environmental factors and was known to receive significant-enough boost in a world strong in the Dark Side. Therefore, this is not his everyday showing.

Secondly; THAT is not like throwing an object around. The maximum Count Dooku achieved was to FLIP one Starfighter over. Others were MOVED on the surface, crashing into a wall nearby.

Third; model (or size) of that Cruiser is officially unclear.

Let us consider Ayn Leener's Telekinetic showing of similar nature to draw a parallel:

Aryn gestured at a cargo tram near the three men shooting at them from behind. The six cars of the tram rushed toward the men, propelled by Aryn’s power. They scrambled aside, and Aryn and Zeerid dashed for Fatman.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Deceived

She was able to move 6 cars of that Tram at the same time...

Below is a view of a single car Tram in Corellia:

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Corellia

Different worlds might be featuring different types of Trams but all are big like a real-life train.

Therefore, moving a Cruiser is well within the capability level of Aryn, and without augmentation of any kind.

Darth Malgus (Deceived; Eleena) was able to send her packing with a single blast of power on two separate occasions nevertheless:

“Your Master was not,” Malgus said, grunting, and shoved her with a telekinetic blast of such force that she flew backward and slammed into the rock and rubble. She used the Force to cushion the impact, but she still landed on her back and the impact blew the breath from her lungs.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Deceived


Malgus bounced up from the somersault and loosed a telekinetic blast that lifted Aryn from her feet and blew her across the hangar. She slammed into one of the shuttle’s bulkheads, but used the Force to cushion the blow so that it did no harm. Bouncing off the cool metal, she charged Malgus.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Deceived

Given the fact that Darth Malgus experienced a substantial growth in power since the (Deceived; Eleena) stage, well...

As of the Onslaught, I would say that Darth Malgus would be able to move a gigantic Starship, far bigger than a Cruiser.

--- --- ---

The Anakin Skywalker versus Count Dooku versus Obi-Wan Kenobi, is not as LINEAR as it seems.

WE have noticed that Obi-Wan is usually unable to stand up to a Telekinetic powerhouse such as Count Dooku in single combat. This suggest that the likes of Aryn and Darth Malgus are capable of ragdolling Obi-Wan on a consistent basis.

Anakin had much raw power in him but his COMMAND of the Force wasn't up to the task even as of Episode III, therefore, Anakin's performance was inconsistent throughout his exploits. On one occasion, Anakin would give the impression that he is above Yoda, and on another occasion, he would be in trouble and below Obi-Wan Kenobi. This is what I make of this apparent inconsistencies. His frame of mind is also a valid consideration.

Darth Caedus could be counted among the most powerful Sith and could still be below Darth Traya and Darth Malgus respectively much like Darth Bane which is not bad at all. I understand that you are emotionally invested in this character but you have harbored an unrealistic view of him. There are a number of characters superior to him.

--- --- ---

Even with the information you shared in mind, Darth Caedus does not hold up to Darth Traya, let alone Darth Malgus in combat-applicable showings. Your chief counterargument of significant injuries hindering combat-applicable performance of Darth Caedus is a NEGATIVE for him, and does not hold much water in view of the exploits of Darth Traya and Darth Malgus respectively.

Vaylin is on another level of raw power and actualized power in comparison to Darth Caedus by any measure. The explanation I provided in previous response is sufficient to indicate as much. The manner in which she destroyed such a massive force of the Knights of Zakuul along with their ships and shuttles in the mix, is FAR above anything the likes of Count Dooku and Aryn Leener could hope to replicate even on their best day in an augmented environment, and each is every bit as capable in Telekinetic application as Darth Caedus in my view. Not even the likes of Darth Traya, Darth Malgus, Revan, and Yoda can pull that off even on their best day in an augmented environment. It is a showing one may expect from VALKORION to replicate, or a Force-user who is capable of 'mass destruction' from a distance such as Palpatine producing a Force Storm (Wormhole) and/or Darth Nihilus blanketing an entire region with his Force Drain powers; even then ships and shuttles are not easy to handle midair and can deliver much firepower from above.

I do not wish to repeat information in my previous post now; I have provided much CONTEXT to it already.
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

June 6th 2020, 11:12 am
@S_W_LeGenD Apologies for the delay but I should be able to respond tomorrow, if not Monday.
Lord Eon
Lord Eon

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

June 7th 2020, 4:45 pm
The Fallen Knight
The Fallen Knight

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

December 12th 2020, 6:17 am
Vaylin annihilates Caedus
Level Six
Level Six

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

December 12th 2020, 6:29 am
Caedus curbstomps

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

December 12th 2020, 6:48 am
Caedus really fell off. Vaylin stomps.
NevesYtneves (DC77)
NevesYtneves (DC77)
Level Seven
Level Seven

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

December 12th 2020, 1:50 pm
I honestly completely forgot about the fact that LeG responded to me in this thread. I'll add reviving our debate to the list of things I can do over the Christmas holidays though I'll admit my appetite for WOT debating has declined significantly, especially when it comes to addressing something as overly long and low quality as the arguments from the user above.

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

December 12th 2020, 2:23 pm
Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Obama10
Level Two
Level Two

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

December 12th 2020, 2:44 pm
Vaylin oneshots.

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

December 12th 2020, 6:41 pm
Vaylin more often than not.

Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

December 12th 2020, 7:39 pm
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Darth Caedus vs Vaylin Empty Re: Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

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