Darth Caedus vs Vaylin

Who win

Jacen

Vaylin is far more powerful and should be comparably skilled per Arcann and Outlander scaling. She wins.

Mismatch in the favor of Vaylin.

Vaylin ragdolls

Vaylin pretty much crushes, yeah.

Vaylin because of her scaling vastly above anything that Caedus have.

Vaylin creams

@S_W_LeGenD @TenebrousWay @XSUPREMEXSKILLZ: I'd appreciate reasons for your claims. Vaylin probably wins but I'm curious as to why it's a mismatch or stomp in her favour.

Caedus is sub-Aurra Sing, get over it.

ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote:@S_W_LeGenD @TenebrousWay @XSUPREMEXSKILLZ: I'd appreciate reasons for your claims. Vaylin probably wins but I'm curious as to why it's a mismatch or stomp in her favour.

Not sure how much I appreciate being ignored.

@ScionofSkywalker77

Let us consider a situation in which both Darth Caedus and Vaylin had to contend with a group of Force-users out in the open (quantity and quality) to draw a parallel of sorts.

Let us start with Darth Caedus.

I recall Darth Caedus defeating a Jedi Strike Team of virtually unknowns with the exception of Kyle Katarn. Although such teams significantly vary in actualized power and capabilities, and the one which confronted Darth Caedus was not among the better ones, but the latter's accomplishment in this fight does warrant PRAISE and does show that he was head-and-shoulders above the (standard) Jedi of the time.

Nevertheless, Darth Caedus wasn't able to bring those Jedi to their knees with a single blast of power or even close. Darth Caedus used the environment to his advantage; he managed to incapacitate Kyle Katarn by pulling a speeder in the latter's direction, and killed another Jedi (Thann Mithric) by deflecting a blaster bolt towards his chest. Others chose to flee afterwards. I would say that Darth Caedus's dueling skills made much difference for him (he is undeniably very good with a lightsaber). This fight might impress you but I would contend that Darth Traya have superior combat-applicable showings; she smoked 3 notable Jedi Masters (Vrook Lamar; Kavar; Zez-Kai Ell) with her vast Telekinetic and Force Drain powers, and eliminated scores of Sith Assassins without even lifting a finger on a separate occasion. And Meetra Surik was somehow able to defeat/kill Darth Traya in a fight even though the latter is/was canonically stronger.

Darth Caedus defeated Onimi after achieving Oneness (not under normal circumstances), and managed to defeat Mara Jade Skywalker with mental tricks in another fight (I was expecting better). To his credit, he had excellent tolerance for injuries much like Hero of Tython, and his Telekinetic abilities are on the level of Aryn Leener (Count Dooku+). Nevertheless, his demonstrations of raw power pale in comparison to that of Vaylin.

Now let us switch to Vaylin.

Consider Vaylin's fight with a massive force of the Knights of Zakuul:

With the rising flames, Senya finally witnessed the true carnage Vaylin had unleashed on the camp: dozens of Knights – bodies mutilated and mangled – had been tossed haphazardly amongst the scattered wreckage of ships and shuttles torn asunder. The full breadth of the slaughter sent a chill down her back; grim evidence of the horrors her daughter was capable of.

From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Knights of the Eternal Throne: A Mother's Hope

That is actually an understatement.

That is like Vaylin crushing dozens of powerful Jedi with all the heavy gear in the mix, and merely burping afterwards. I do not recall a lone Jedi and/or Sith overwhelming so many Force-users of that caliber in a fight in 'any' medium. Each Knight of Zakuul is supposed to be more than a match for a standard Jedi Knight.

Even the TRIO of The Outlander and his allies such as Sith Lord Lana Beniko and Senya Tirall (one of the most powerful Knights of Zakuul), were not able to handle a dozen Knights of Zakuul in an open fight. Vaylin however destroyed dozens...

The aforementioned TRIO was able to raise the gigantic Gravestone vessel from the surface while it was firmly entrenched in the ground (many meters deep). It would take a much formidable force to handle this TRIO in an open-ended confrontation since each was capable of taking on and defeating multiple opponents in a fight without breaking a sweat in personal capacity.

As emphasized in the LORE, Knights of Zakuul were supposed to sweep entire groups of Jedi and/or Sith if spotted let alone a single Force-user. Knights of Zakuul are/were very effective warriors as a group because of their unique philosophy which encourage sharing of knowledge and does not restrict them in regards to what they are supposed to learn:

Zakuul Knights don't limit themselves to studying one side of the Force, instead teaching balance and exploration. Knights have their own relationships with the Force, but are encouraged to share their findings with the rest of the order. No area is deemed "weak" or "a dangerous path"--they are all parts of a larger, limitless power.

- Codex entry (Knights of Zakuul)

That is why the Jedi and/or Sith were unable to defeat Knights of Zakuul in the battlefield (confirmed by Satele Shan and Darth Marr respectively), and The Eternal Empire was able to conquer the entire galaxy consequently. The Jedi tend to restrict themselves to ways of the Light whereas Sith undermine each other with infighting.



Although, some Jedi and Sith had the reputation of being army-busters, conventional forces of the Empire and/or the Republic are not in the league of the Knights of Zakuul; relatively low-end accomplishments instead.

Revan is stated to be an army-buster, right? Well, 4 x Basilisk war droids were sufficient to stop him in his tracks and potentially kill him (Revan needed allies in this situation to help him get through). Being an army-buster does not suggest that a Force-user can literally SOLO an army with mere gestures - lot of plot elements are involved in the mix.

A powerful Force wave of Darth Malgus killed everybody in the vicinity but merely lurched a transport nearby (this guy send Aryn Leener packing across the hall with a blast of power in a fight otherwise who have very impressive telekinetic showings of her own). Darth Malgus is openly/officially recognized as one of the strongest Sith to have [ever] existed, yet, he doesn't hold a candle to Vaylin in strength and otherwise; Vaylin slaughtered dozes of Knights of Zakuul and dismantled their ships and shuttles like tissue paper in a fight.

So....

There are numerous other angles and ways to establish superiority of Vaylin in this contest.

Vaylin is actually Valkorion TIER, a fact that some members of this forum have to come to terms with.

I realize that I have to fix Vaylin's respect thread. I will do the needful soon.

@S_W_LeGenD:

Thanks for the response. I appreciate the effort but there's a number of problems with it, and this post will go through them in detail.

I recall Darth Caedus defeating a Jedi Strike Team of virtually unknowns with the exception of Kyle Katarn. Although such teams significantly vary in actualized power and capabilities, and the one which confronted Darth Caedus was not among the better ones, but the latter's accomplishment in this fight does warrant PRAISE and does show that he was head-and-shoulders above the (standard) Jedi of the time.

Nevertheless, Darth Caedus wasn't able to bring those Jedi to their knees with a single blast of power or even close. Darth Caedus used the environment to his advantage; he managed to incapacitate Kyle Katarn by pulling a speeder in the latter's direction, and killed another Jedi (Thann Mithric) by deflecting a blaster bolt towards his chest. Others chose to flee afterwards. I would say that Darth Caedus's dueling skills made much difference for him (he is undeniably very good with a lightsaber). This fight might impress you but I would contend that Darth Traya have superior combat-applicable showings; she smoked 3 notable Jedi Masters (Vrook Lamar; Kavar; Zez-Kai Ell) with her vast Telekinetic and Force Drain powers, and eliminated scores of Sith Assassins without even lifting a finger on a separate occasion. And Meetra Surik was somehow able to defeat/kill Darth Traya in a fight even though the latter is/was canonically stronger.

A) You draw no tangible connection between the team Caedus fought and the 3 masters Traya ragdolled, you simply assert that Traya's adversaries were better on the basis of the Jedi Caedus faced being virtual unknowns... without acknowledging that this doesn't actually demonstrate their inferiority, it merely makes them more vague and unquantifiable. We can't really draw a conclusion either way so the comparison falls flat.

B) You're comparing the power Caedus can summon while being pressured in a duel with Kyle that was diverting his attention (Somebody who he classed as an actual threat) vs the potency Traya can bring to bear without having the intensity of a heated duel divide her focus.

C) Caedus is still not recovered from his duel with Luke as of this point:

Legacy Of The Force: Fury wrote:Caedus hadn't felt the blaster bolt coming. His concentration was slipping.

And this madman of a Falleen Jedi was starting to beat down his parries. His strength was slipping.

He wasn't yet recovered from his duel with Luke.

D) Luke suggests that without all the aforementioned context (Injuries and diverted attention) a Knight would be injured by a single attack from Jacen:

Legacy Of The Force: Fury wrote:"You can. You should. Jacen is ... extraordinarily dangerous. If he sees you, he might devote only a single, negligent attack to you. Such an attack would distract a Jedi Master, hurt a Jedi Knight... and kill you."

What's especially interesting is Luke's view on the attitude Caedus would have in performing such an assault. He states it would be "negligent", which indicates Jacen would be "failing to take proper care" in performing the move (Ergo, it's a casual demonstration that's not in any way indicative of Caedus's full potency).

E) Fury isn't Jacen's prime. He grows astronomically more powerful following it, so the Vaylin comparison is irrelevant even if it stands.

and managed to defeat Mara Jade Skywalker with mental tricks in another fight (I was expecting better).

There's nothing connecting TOR folk and Mara so it's a moot point. That aside, Jacen experiences insane growth following this as established here.

To his credit, he had excellent tolerance for injuries much like Hero of Tython, and his Telekinetic abilities are on the level of Aryn Leener (Count Dooku+).

Her superior in Malgus can't manage this:

The Old Republic: Deceived wrote:Malgus rushed through the large double doors and into the landing bay. Vrath Xizor’s ship, Razor, rose on its thrusters toward the open roof doors. Two Imperial shuttles sat idle on the landing pad.

“Eleena!” he shouted, hating himself for his vulnerability but unable to contain the shout.

He reached out with the Force as Razor continued its rise, tried to take it in his mental grasp. Its ascent slowed. He held forth both of his arms, made claws of his hands, and shouted with frustration as he sought to hold back the power of the ship’s thrusters.

He felt a tightness in his mind, the string of his power being drawn taut, stretching, stretching. He would not release the ship. Its thrusters began to whine. He held it, teeth gritted, sweat soaking his body, his breath a dry rattle through his respirator.

And then the string snapped and the ship flew free, lifting clear of the roof doors.

Meanwhile Dooku is throwing around 215m cruisers well before his prime. Something which Caedus scales above. So yeah, I very much doubt that her TK is comparable to Dooku's or Caedus's.

To substantiate my point about Caedus's superiority to Dooku, we already know the Count is a joke to Anakin per the ROTS novel:

Spoiler:

And that the duel as depicted in the film lasts around 12 seconds. Kenobi on the other hand goes for much longer and fairs far better:

Spoiler:

While I'm perfectly willing to grant that there's an enormous disparity between Kenobi and Anakin on paper as certain members have suggested, I'm unconvinced that the factors that allowed Kenobi to compete mitigate the extraordinary difference in performance level to the degree people want to suggest. We're contrasting a several minute engagement with one that doesn't even go on for 15 seconds and people believe that the comparison doesn't stand due to stylistic differences and knowledge that works both ways? Seriously?

Moving on from that point, we have Hett throwing down with the same Kenobi shortly following ROTS:

Spoiler:

After which he grows markedly more powerful. Given his performance here I'd say that's indicative of superiority to Kenobi. In spite of this he's still inferior to Caedus as of 41ABY, which grants Caedus scaling to Kenobi, Dooku and the cruiser feat.

What's especially notable about the linked quote is that it positions Caedus somewhere near Yoda and Sids based off him being markedly greater than Kenobi and Dooku, both of whom are firmly outside Yoda and Sheev's one shot range. We're both aware that they're the most powerful Sith and Jedi up to that point, putting them absurdly beyond Traya, who's buried in TOR scaling, so the idea that she's somehow superior to Caedus falls flat on its face. Absolutely nothing you've provided indicates a stomp gap between Caedus and Vaylin, nor does it make it a mismatch like you wish it would be.

@ScionOfSkywalker77

Thanks for that effort, I learned more from your well-constructed response so credit where due.

A) The Jedi Strike Team in question encompassed following members:

Jedi Master = Kyle Katarn
Jedi Knights = Thann Mithric; Kolir Hu'lya; Vakin Horn
Jedi Padawan = Seha Dorvald

The Jedi Master was obviously difficult to defeat, and therefore, Darth Caedus capitalized on his surroundings to his advantage in order to incapacitate him. Others not so much.

The following statement:

"You can. You should. Jacen is ... extraordinarily dangerous. If he sees you, he might devote only a single, negligent attack to you. Such an attack would distract a Jedi Master, hurt a Jedi Knight... and kill you." - Luke Skywalker while addressing Seha Dorvald

- THAT is the very definition of being a rank-and-file, my friend.

Those Jedi Knights were/are not counted among the most powerful of their time (each was rank-and-file with a name). Therefore, they are quantifiable enough for me to realize that they are not in the league of some of the most powerful Jedi Knights and Masters of the Old Republic timeline, why should I assume otherwise? You need to give me 'something' to consider and even it might not be enough. 

I shall also point out the fact that a few Jedi Knights prove really powerful, more powerful than many Jedi Masters of the era. There can be exceptions to the rule.

Recall the young Jedi Knight Satele Shan killing 3 Sith Warriors on the spot with a single blast of power in order to prevent Jace Malcom's execution? These were the rank-and-file of the time. And I shall CAUTION that these rank-and-file Sith Warriors were not mooks (I can provide meaningful information in this regard). Even I give the benefit of the doubt to Seha, she would be on the level of these Sith Warriors at best.



Luke's statement is rather applicable to Satele as of Hope.

Satele was powerful, skilled, and fast enough (sheer speed is very important consideration), to singlehandedly cut a swath through an advancing column of Sith-led forces in order to reach Darth Malgus and engage him in a duel in which she brought down a massive tree with a gesture from one hand while holding Darth Malgus at bay with another:






My take is that that is a far more difficult feat than bringing down a functioning speeder given the fact that she was coping with the strength of Darth Malgus on one hand and the sheer size of the object which she managed to bring down to break the deadlock at the same time. Imagine the magnitude of pressure on her in this situation...

Darth Malgus cornered her once again but she evaded a killing blow from him with her incredible level of speed and maneuvering, and also prevented subsequent effort to impale her with bare hands:



Jace intervened at this point, and Satele sent Darth Malgus crashing into a rocky formation and her next attack blew it all apart. In this single battle, Satele have shown greater power and talent than countless Force-users of the mythos.





Satele have a number of other amazing feats under her belt including disintegrating a heavily reinforced door with a mere touch:



Can WE make similar claims for the Jedi Knights accompanying Seha? No, not even remotely close.

Only Kyle have hype and substance to his name with decent feats; and Darth Caedus had to find a way to undermine him. However, even Kyle is not on the level of Satele.

B) Question should be why Darth Caedus even had to entertain a lightsaber duel with the aforementioned coalition of Jedi if he was as powerful as you want me to believe?

Darth Traya's raw power in all its glory:-











THAT is one of the most powerful applications of telekinesis in the mythos, my friend. THAT is not something you see very often.

They were not some rank-and-file Jedi but well-known Jedi Masters of the time.

"Even the Sith would think twice before attacking Dantooine. There are many Jedi here, including several of the most powerful Masters of the Order. There is great strength within this place." - Bastila Shan

Let us take a look at the abilities of the Jedi Master Vrook Lamar for instance.

He could 'immobilize' Meetra Surik against her will:



He could affect and dominate multiple opponents (Force-users to be exact) in a fight:



He even understood dark side abilities such as Force Lightning:



He could heal his wounds:





He was a master of passive defensive applications:



He effortlessly disabled a cage which could restrain many Jedi in his shoes:



He was also proficient in the use of many esoteric abilities such as sever Force among others. And he had no trouble lifting and moving multiple objects with his telekinetic abilities (textual information in KoTOR II). He was directly involved in the rebuilding of the Dantooine enclave which would have required a great deal of telekinetic application given how fast it was completed.

The number of Jedi capable of handling Meetra - the Jedi Exile (Wound in the Force) incarnation - in a fight would be very small (she is counted among the Jedi's greatest), and Jedi Master Vrook Lamar was one of them. Bastila's hype is applicable to him.

I do not think that I have to expand on the abilities of the other Jedi Masters here; each was a powerful Force-user to begin with.

NOTE: Darth Traya was hardly in good shape in view of her past experiences; Darth Nihilus had sapped her powers once from which she had to recover, and Darth Sion had cut off a hand which she did not replace with cybernetics. Therefore, her injuries were accumulating over time. In her last duel, she had lost her remaining hand and the ability to wield a lightsaber with it, and this loss did not hinder her ability to continue to fight as she was able to employ her vast telekinetic powers for the needful.

You do not understand how powerful Darth Traya was/is. She was/is stated to be more powerful than even the Jedi Exile incarnation of Meetra (confirmed in the The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia), and was something to be feared in SWTOR as well (i.e. an ENTITY of sorts at this point in time from whom Darth Baras benefited to great extent to advance his agenda).

Perhaps she allowed Meetra to strike her down? Who knows.

Revan (Reborn) scaling from Darth Traya is not a NEGATIVE for the latter but a measure of his extraordinary powers instead:

Three centuries ago, Revan wielded the dual philosophies of Sith passion and Jedi tranquility to conquer his enemies; he even nearly assassinated the Sith Emperor.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia

The aforementioned statement suggest that Revan posit a LEGITIMATE threat to the most powerful Force-users of the mythos.

Revan's ability to wield the dual philosophies of Sith passion and Jedi tranquility to conquer his enemies, is a talent UNIQUE to him among all known Jedi, and make him one of the most formidable combatants ever. The Sith Emperor would have absolutely CRUSHED a lesser foe but Revan was able to give him a fight for his life which is something significant and reinforce the notion that the latter was not hindered by environment factors. Lord Scourge knew so many Sith, but he felt that only Revan had the strength to challenge the Emperor which is a big deal. Revan is an outlier in short.

As I have emphasized before, Darth Traya have shown more power than the likes of Count Dooku and her ability to do this:



And this:



Well....

It is safe to assert that she is/was one of the most powerful (and dangerous) Sith Lords to have ever emerged throughout history.

Darth Caedus have not shown power on THAT level in 'any' fight or related circumstances. 

In his shoes, Darth Traya would have ragdolled and annihilated the Jedi Strike Team he was up against with her powers; she wouldn't be needing a lightsaber and even a speeder for the needful.

As for the "You're comparing the power Caedus can summon while being pressured in a duel with Kyle that was diverting his attention" part, this is not true (see below).

Darth Caedus did create an opening for himself before he could utilize a speeder as a projectile to undermine his opponents:

He felt Force energy growing within Mithric and Horn. He gestured, telekinetically yanking the Bothan forward, positioning her between him and them. He felt their Force exertion as it was suddenly cut off.

Taken from Star Wars: Legacy of the Force: Fury

At this point, the Jedi Master advanced towards him, but Darth Caedus also withdrew from his earlier position:

Katarn advanced, lightsaber at the ready. Caedus withdrew before him. With part of his awareness, he was keeping track of the four inbound vehicles, plotting their trajectories. . .

Taken from Star Wars: Legacy of the Force: Fury

Darth Caedus then distracted the advancing Jedi Master with a gesture towards him to give him the impression that he would launch a Force push, and his opponent bought into this trick not realizing that the actual attack was coming from above in the shape of a speeder. When Kyle realized his mistake, it was too late for him:

One of the GAG vehicles was circling ahead and to starboard of the descending shuttle. Its arc, intended to put it toward the bow of the shuttle so it could fire on the cockpit, would bring it near the combatants, just a few meters above them. The pilot's maneuver was smooth, the vehicle clearly under control. Caedus could see the Jedi barely registering its presence, since it did not figure into the combat.

Caedus reached out a hand as if intending to hurl Katarn away from him. The Master raised his own hand, a deflecting gesture. But Caedus exerted himself against the oncoming GAG speeder, yanking it down and toward all of them.

A moment's inattention or focus elsewhere. That's all it ever took. By the time Katarn felt the speeder coming toward him-spinning, its stern a mere two meters from his back-it was already too late for him to send a command even to Force-augmented nerves and muscles. His face changed with the awareness of danger.

Then the speeder's port quarter hit his back, hurling him forward to slam into Caedus. The speeder, continuing its out-of-control motion, slid through the location of the other Jedi, knocking Hu'lya to the permacrete, causing Horn and Mithric to leap to safety.

Taken from Star Wars: Legacy of the Force: Fury

The others were like mere spectators [when] Kyle advanced towards Darth Caedus; their lack of experience was clearly showing. Come on you noobs, do something...

Compare THAT to actions of T3-M4 and Meetra when each intervened to 'save' Revan at different intervals when he was in big trouble; this show presence-of-mind and experience.

C) Duly noted, but there are examples of Force-users being MORTALLY WOUNDED, and were still capable of incredible showings.

Before I give an example, I would like to share a relevant quote:

"Your thoughts betray you," Plagueis said. "Do you think that Malak's powers were weakened by Revan's lightsaber? Bane by being encrusted in orbalisks? Do you
think Gravid's young apprentice was hindered by the prosthesis she was forced to wear after fighting him?"

"No, Master."

Taken from Star Wars: Darth Plagueis

Let us consider Darth Malgus in this context.



Darth Malgus was MORTALLY WOUNDED in that situation:

Malgus's brutal campaign was nearly ended forever when he suffered a crushing defeat battling Jace Malcom, commander of the elite Havoc squad, and Satele Shan on Aldeeran. The Emperor's greatest surgeons and cyberneticists repaired Malgus's broken body and installed a special breathing apparatus to conceal his ruined face.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia

However, even with injuries of such magnitude, Darth Malgus still had a lot of fight left in him; he decided to take his chances with a duo of Jedi including one powerful enough to collapse two buildings over him. Even though these buildings had suffered much damage in the war, they were still massive structures and collapsing each would require a great deal of telekinetic proficiency. Jedi Master Kyle Katarn does not have a telekinetic showing of this scale and intensity to his name.

A collapse of such magnitude was not sufficient to defeat (mortally wounded) Darth Malgus:

Malgus stood in a pocket under a mountain of rubble, legs bent, the power from his upraised hands preventing several tons of duracrete and steel from crushing him. Dust made his already troubled breathing more difficult. He coughed as the words of his father echoed in his mind.

He’d been sloppy, so lost in his need for revenge that he’d failed to properly evaluate the Jedi’s power. He’d surrendered his reason to bloodlust. But no more. With an effort of will, he contained his anger, controlled it, made it a whetstone against which he sharpened his power. Using the Force, he blew the rubble up and away from him. It fell with a crash into the adjacent buildings. A Force-augmented leap carried him out and over the heap. The Jedi’s eyes widened as Malgus hit the street. Malgus sneered and charged.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: The Third Lesson

In spit of all that, Darth Malgus still managed to hold so much debris above him and blew it all apart afterwards.

Kyle really struggled to hold a large pile of rocks above his head at one point ("I can't... keep this up for long"); Darth Malgus had more power in him even at his lowest point.

Imagine what Darth Malgus could do when in good shape, and he became FAR more powerful in the years ahead.

---

Below is a demonstration of an event in relation to the latest duel of Darth Malgus (Onslaught era):







THAT thing is about the size of a large multi-story building, and would have a mass of thousands of tons. Its fall destroyed the entire Skyscraper beneath.

BEFORE THAT, Darth Malgus was up against some of the most powerful Force-users of the era (more like history) including The Outlander and Jedi Knight Tau Idair. Make no mistake here, Jedi Knight Tau Idair was extremely powerful in the ways of the Force and capable of replicating telekinetic showings of Darth Malgus (depending upon player choices); she is a veteran of the Great Galactic War as well as the Eternal War.

I am not sure why Darth Malgus chose to take his chances with such coalition; this duel left him severely injured once again, and his lightsaber became dysfunctional from the experience.



- but he still had a lot of fight left in him, and created the gap he needed to shatter the region:



While Darth Malgus was up against overwhelming odds, he fought his way out of the situation. Severe injuries did not hinder Darth Malgus's powers and ability to ALTER the course of a battle when it turned south for him. No wonder Palpatine felt that Darth Malgus's battlefield feats were never duplicated by anybody else.

Darth Malgus, as of the Onslaught era, would also have utterly destroyed the Jedi Strike Team which confronted Darth Caedus, in a number of ways I shall add. Many years before when he fought the Jedi inside the Jedi Temple (Sacking of Coruscant), he was able to cut a swath through their ranks as if they were nothing. However, his powers continued to grow on a daily basis.

Darth Malgus was so proficient in the dark arts that he was the FIRST known Force-user to create a Force Maelstrom with sheer force of will, in a fight:



It was through knowledge and command of this particular application (sourced from Darth Malgus), that Palpatine was able to create a Force Storm (Wormhole) by his own hand.

D) I do not recall Darth Caedus [one-shotting] Seha and injuring remainder of the Jedi Strike Team with a single blast of power.

Luke was probably exaggerating the nature of the threat in order to CAUTION Seha and her companions that they must not take Darth Caedus lightly. Chances were good that Darth Caedus would kill at least one of them (probably two), and he did.

E) Where in that post it is stated that Darth Caedus grew astronomically since the events of Fury? What I gather from your post is that Darth Caedus was even more injured than before:

The last time he had fought Luke, he had started with a painful kidney wound but two good arms-and barely managed to survive. Now, with a relatively bearable shoulder wound and a single good arm, he had to do more than survive, he had to prevail-because now there would be no mercy at the last minute. This time, his uncle would not care whether he survived as long as Caedus died, because now Luke knew the truth about who had killed his wife.

Taken from Legacy Of The Force Invincible

Secondly; Luke was giving him the benefit of doubt in earlier confrontation, but not this time. But even in this case, Luke chose Jaina Solo Fel to do his bidding and augmented her powers for the needful (i.e. JUKE)? Therefore, not the same thing as Luke himself.

THAT is akin to the difference between Tenebrae himself and an extension of his will identified as the First Son. Not the same thing in my books.

My contention is that Darth Caedus was short on techniques to undermine JUKE.

Consider the following analogy.

When Satele was up against the unnatural form of Revan (i.e. Shadow of Revan), she was able to create virtually impenetrable spherical shield(s) to manage her Battle Meditation efforts as well as to heal her allies during the course of the battle; the environment was unusually strong in the Dark Side, and Revan had numerous tricks and powers up his sleeve here, to the point that even lightsaber(s) were not affecting him.



"[Satele Shan's] Force Barrier [is] immune to all damage, control, and negative effects." - (SWTOR: Shadow of Revan)

Satele learned much from THAT fight anyways, and developed further capabilities and tactics to handle a much powerful (potential) opponent in the future (just in case).

The Outlander raised his blade to strike down Satele (player's choice), and she is/was able to blanket his senses with utter darkness (VOID effect) and teleport to safety:



"It's not my time to die. Not yet." - Satele Shan

Satele was not lacking in the raw power aspect either; she had cleared an entire sector of massive trees all by herself [early on]:

"These heavy logs were clearly cut from the surrounding forest, but there are no drag marks to show how they could have been brought to camp." - (attributed to Satele)




A glimpse of Satele reshaping THAT sector.


Point is that a gifted and talented Force-user is expected to learn from his/her past experiences and make an effort to develop new powers and devise new tactics to increase the likelihood of survival when up against "overwhelming odds."

So what exactly Darth Caedus learn from this FIRST confrontation with Luke? What new powers and tactics he demonstrated in his SECOND fight with the so-called JUKE to make sure that he does not fail this time?

In the case of champions of the Old Republic timeline, just when WE assume that WE have seen it all, they come back and surprise us some more. This is what I find impressive in personal capacity. This is why I CAUTION against LINEAR SCALING practice. There is much more to these champions than A > B > C > D and vice versa.

---

Yes, Darth Caedus became more powerful than his earlier incarnation when he fought Mara Jade Skywalker, I give you this:

Jacen feels his power in the dark side swell, unlocking new powers, including an unparalleled ability to command and coordinate fighting forces as the former Emperor once did. Fully committed to the Sith path, Jacen assumes the title Darth Caedus.
...
Jacen has reached a threshold in his Sith potential. He has sacrificed a loved one and the bond of trust between himself and Ben. Lumiya senses this shift in power and decides a further sacrifice is needed to cement Jacen’s rule.

Taken from The Essential Reader's Companion

Although, that does not tell us much about his advances in combat-applicable aspects, but he unlocked new powers at this point including the art of Battle Meditation (i.e. became more powerful as a whole).

He fought Luke next which didn't go well for him (understandable), and he had to fight a Jedi Strike Team afterwards which he managed to defeat (although the Jedi succeeded in tagging him) but this coalition was evidently far beyond [one-shot] territory for him. Your chief counterargument was that Darth Caedus was in bad shape at this point in time, but I provided evidence to the contrary that this aspect have not hindered some of the greatest Force-users before (Darth Traya and Darth Malgus respectively), therefore, this is a NEGATIVE for Darth Caedus, or he is not as strong as you make him out to be. I have also established above that either Darth Traya or Darth Malgus could utterly overwhelm the same Jedi Strike Team with their actualized power in a hypothetical fight (badly injured or not).

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1. THAT feat is representative of a tug-of-war between Darth Malgus and a Starship with its engines active and attempting to get away from him as the Sith Lord was attempting to hold back the power of the its thrusters. This is not the same as moving a stationary Starship, or chugging it like a missile.

2. THAT was Darth Malgus [before] he killed Eleena Daru and experienced a major growth in raw power in the aftermath:

Thinking of Eleena blew oxygen on the embers of his anger. In life, Eleena had been his weakness, a tool to be exploited by rivals. In death, she had become his strength, her memory the lens of his rage.

He resided in the calm eye of a storm of hate. Power churned around him, within him. He did not feel as if he were drawing on the Force, using it. He felt as if he were the Force, as if he had merged with it.

He had evolved. Nothing split his loyalties any longer.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Deceived

Picture this: Darth Malgus (Onslaught) above Darth Malgus (False Emperor) above Darth Malgus (Deceived; Post-Eleena) above Darth Malgus (Deceived; Eleena) above Darth Malgus (Hope) above Darth Malgus (Return)

There is much growth in power to account for [after] THAT feat, and this is also apparent from his demonstrations of power in his latest duel (Onslaught era); see above.

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Count Dooku was able to [flip] one Starfighter over, [move] another, and also [move] a Cruiser (each separately one after the other):

Then he knew.

"This way!" he yelled, as the first vehicle suddenly flipped over. It would have crushed them if Obi-Wan hadn't dashed to the side with Anakin on his heels. He flattened himself against the wall as another vehicle moved, its jagged wing a lethal weapon, capable of slicing them to ribbons. A cruiser suddenly zoomed toward the wall, straight at them.

"Drop!" Anakin and Obi-Wan hit the floor, hugging the stones as the cruiser passed over them and smashed into the wall.

Taken from Jedi Quest: The Final Showdown

- on a world very strong in the Dark Side (i.e. Korriban).

Count Dooku was sensitive to environmental factors and was known to receive significant-enough boost in a world strong in the Dark Side. Therefore, this is not his everyday showing.

Secondly; THAT is not like throwing an object around. The maximum Count Dooku achieved was to FLIP one Starfighter over. Others were MOVED on the surface, crashing into a wall nearby.

Third; model (or size) of that Cruiser is officially unclear.

Let us consider Ayn Leener's Telekinetic showing of similar nature to draw a parallel:

Aryn gestured at a cargo tram near the three men shooting at them from behind. The six cars of the tram rushed toward the men, propelled by Aryn’s power. They scrambled aside, and Aryn and Zeerid dashed for Fatman.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Deceived

She was able to move 6 cars of that Tram at the same time...

Below is a view of a single car Tram in Corellia:



Different worlds might be featuring different types of Trams but all are big like a real-life train.

Therefore, moving a Cruiser is well within the capability level of Aryn, and without augmentation of any kind.

Darth Malgus (Deceived; Eleena) was able to send her packing with a single blast of power on two separate occasions nevertheless:

“Your Master was not,” Malgus said, grunting, and shoved her with a telekinetic blast of such force that she flew backward and slammed into the rock and rubble. She used the Force to cushion the impact, but she still landed on her back and the impact blew the breath from her lungs.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Deceived

+

Malgus bounced up from the somersault and loosed a telekinetic blast that lifted Aryn from her feet and blew her across the hangar. She slammed into one of the shuttle’s bulkheads, but used the Force to cushion the blow so that it did no harm. Bouncing off the cool metal, she charged Malgus.

Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Deceived

Given the fact that Darth Malgus experienced a substantial growth in power since the (Deceived; Eleena) stage, well...

As of the Onslaught, I would say that Darth Malgus would be able to move a gigantic Starship, far bigger than a Cruiser.

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The Anakin Skywalker versus Count Dooku versus Obi-Wan Kenobi, is not as LINEAR as it seems.

WE have noticed that Obi-Wan is usually unable to stand up to a Telekinetic powerhouse such as Count Dooku in single combat. This suggest that the likes of Aryn and Darth Malgus are capable of ragdolling Obi-Wan on a consistent basis.

Anakin had much raw power in him but his COMMAND of the Force wasn't up to the task even as of Episode III, therefore, Anakin's performance was inconsistent throughout his exploits. On one occasion, Anakin would give the impression that he is above Yoda, and on another occasion, he would be in trouble and below Obi-Wan Kenobi. This is what I make of this apparent inconsistencies. His frame of mind is also a valid consideration.

Darth Caedus could be counted among the most powerful Sith and could still be below Darth Traya and Darth Malgus respectively much like Darth Bane which is not bad at all. I understand that you are emotionally invested in this character but you have harbored an unrealistic view of him. There are a number of characters superior to him.



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Even with the information you shared in mind, Darth Caedus does not hold up to Darth Traya, let alone Darth Malgus in combat-applicable showings. Your chief counterargument of significant injuries hindering combat-applicable performance of Darth Caedus is a NEGATIVE for him, and does not hold much water in view of the exploits of Darth Traya and Darth Malgus respectively.

Vaylin is on another level of raw power and actualized power in comparison to Darth Caedus by any measure. The explanation I provided in previous response is sufficient to indicate as much. The manner in which she destroyed such a massive force of the Knights of Zakuul along with their ships and shuttles in the mix, is FAR above anything the likes of Count Dooku and Aryn Leener could hope to replicate even on their best day in an augmented environment, and each is every bit as capable in Telekinetic application as Darth Caedus in my view. Not even the likes of Darth Traya, Darth Malgus, Revan, and Yoda can pull that off even on their best day in an augmented environment. It is a showing one may expect from VALKORION to replicate, or a Force-user who is capable of 'mass destruction' from a distance such as Palpatine producing a Force Storm (Wormhole) and/or Darth Nihilus blanketing an entire region with his Force Drain powers; even then ships and shuttles are not easy to handle midair and can deliver much firepower from above.

I do not wish to repeat information in my previous post now; I have provided much CONTEXT to it already.

@S_W_LeGenD Apologies for the delay but I should be able to respond tomorrow, if not Monday.

Vaylin

Vaylin annihilates Caedus

Caedus curbstomps

Caedus really fell off. Vaylin stomps.

I honestly completely forgot about the fact that LeG responded to me in this thread. I'll add reviving our debate to the list of things I can do over the Christmas holidays though I'll admit my appetite for WOT debating has declined significantly, especially when it comes to addressing something as overly long and low quality as the arguments from the user above.

Vaylin oneshots.

Vaylin more often than not.

Vaylin.