Darth Nihilus vs. Mace Windu

Nihilus, not a debate

Nihilus' TK feats are too OP, tbh.

Nihilus is too stronk.

I fear Mace ultimately becomes another quick meal for the Dark Lord.

Michael the Demiurge wrote:I fear Mace ultimately becomes another quick meal for the Dark Lord.

How's Nihilus going to win this "quickly"?

I can't really see Nihilus beating Mace with the force, let alone quickly assuming Anakin taught the technique of drain resistance to the rest of the Jedi and there is no reason to assume he didn't.

Certainly not before Mace closes the gap to curbstomp him in conventional combat

Yeah, because a technique that only somewhat delayed the effects of the Dark Reaper at a considerable distance is the same as taking on a far more powerful, concentrated drain.

Nihilus’ drain is unique to Trayus teachings as well, AFAIK.

Indeed. That's why the Sith Empire were desperate to obtain his holocron. Conversely the Jedi were desperate to prevent them.

LOTL wrote:I can't really see Nihilus beating Mace with the force, let alone quickly assuming Anakin taught the technique of drain resistance to the rest of the Jedi and there is no reason to assume he didn't.

Certainly not before Mace closes the gap to curbstomp him in conventional combat

Well in the final level it's made clear that Anakin is the only one who can get near that thing without dying:



(Skip to 9:20)

Anakin had plenty of time to teach the Jedi the Sith technique before the Thule campaign but evidently couldn't. No real reason to assume Mace or anyone learned it from him.

Yeah I see no reason to assume he can teach them the technique or that they can master the technique in days not to mention the problem of teaching it to everyone being an incredibly huge issue. There is also learning rates, his ability as a teacher and other factors to consider. Him learning it in such a short amount of time cannot mean everyone can obviously

Nihilus. Even without drain his feats are better

Prime Mace is a fair bit stronger in the Force and infinitely more skilled with a blade. If he can get close, he wins. If not, Nihilus' drain kills him. Mace might be a lot more powerful, but he has no way to defend against the draining technique.

I honestly can’t see Nihilus dying to a lightsaber. Seems like he’s beyond physical limitations, even if he did encase his essence in his armour and mask.

BreakofDawn wrote:Prime Mace is a fair bit stronger in the Force and infinitely more skilled with a blade. If he can get close, he wins. If not, Nihilus' drain kills him. Mace might be a lot more powerful, but he has no way to defend against the draining technique.

How is Windu stronger than Nihilus?

I'd bet on Mace. He had a damn good shot at killing the most powerful Sith in history and weathered his Force attacks. Nihilus' martial abilities are absolutely woeful compared to Mace's. His only shot is his savant deathfield/cloud/drain ability, which while very powerful on a vast scale, remains untested against a single, extremely powerful individual. Even providing the Drain has some kind of effect on Mace, Nihilus will have trouble implementing it while he's under fire and Mace should be powerful enough to close the gap before becoming so weakened he would lose in a lightsaber duel.

LadyKulvax wrote:

BreakofDawn wrote:Prime Mace is a fair bit stronger in the Force and infinitely more skilled with a blade. If he can get close, he wins. If not, Nihilus' drain kills him. Mace might be a lot more powerful, but he has no way to defend against the draining technique.

How is Windu stronger than Nihilus?

Scaling off of Sidious. ILS summed it up.

Nihilus' Force feats dwarf Windu's.

Windu in his final battle was fighting with a whole bunch of circumstances fueling his ability to contend with Sheev. But in the end it's made very clear that Vaapad, and himself on the best day of his life, couldn't handle Sheev ramping up his lightning to full potency. Nor is he as strong as Yoda, who was Sheev's equal.

So trying the 'parity with most powerful ever' argument doesn't work when put through its paces.

@LadyKulvax

Nihilus' Force feats dwarf Windu's.

And? Sidious is > Nihilus, that's indisputable, and Mace is a rival of his.

Windu in his final battle was fighting with a whole bunch of circumstances fueling his ability to contend with Sheev.

Virtually all of which I've debunked or countered more times than I can count.

But in the end it's made very clear that Vaapad, and himself on the best day of his life, couldn't handle Sheev ramping up his lightning to full potency.

That's not even remotely true. Mace was caught with his pants down, having a split second to react to block Sidious' lightning and holding his lightsaber in a compromising defensive position while exhausted. It's never once suggested a rested prime Mace couldn't go toe to toe with Sidious, and if you want to argue that cite a quote from either the author or the novel to confirm that. There's literally a quote from Lucas - who was closely involved in the novel's production - confirming Mace is around Yoda/Sidious level.

Nor is he as strong as Yoda, who was Sheev's equal.

Which is contrasted by about a dozen quotes who put him around Yoda's level by the time of TPM and AOTC, and Lucas' own confirmation that ROTS Mace is a peer of Yoda and Sidious'.

So trying the 'parity with most powerful ever' argument doesn't work when put through its paces.

Except it does.

Chee has said Sidious's supremacy quotes are subjective and has also repeatedly said supremacy quotes aren't absolute. I don't think arguing Mace~Sheev>Nihilus makes for a very compelling argument especially since Nihilus's feats arguably surpass ROTS Sidious's by a significant margin.

Mace probably takes it if he's a legitimate Sidious-tier combatant absent any extenuating circumstance. Otherwise, Nihilus overwhelms him with debatable ease.

Windu isn't Sidious tier at base combative ability, no.

MP wrote:Windu isn't Sidious tier at base combative ability, no.

He's easily Sidious TIER. The question is whether or not he's Sidious' equal or better.

No he isn't.