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Ziggy
Ziggy

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 11th 2020, 6:12 pm
> Korriban wrote:Women are a problem. So basically the female gender as a whole is evil and none of them have any moral compass. I personally think that just opening your legs as a woman gets you money in this country. Ben Shapiro is probably the smartest man ever to walk the earth, I think it's a toss up between him Donald Trump and David Duke. Personally white pride should be completely allowed given how there is black pride so obviously we should be equal and have white pride. #rehumanizethebadge Cops have been getting a terrible reputation for murdering 🐵 people which is just wrong. We all need to unite under the great Tom Wilkes Booth and embrace his values imho.

Well this is just nonsense. 

Quite clearly, there shouldn't be a pride movement for both whites and blacks.  What exactly did the Nigs do to be proud of?
Reynard (Ethanion)
Reynard (Ethanion)

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 14th 2020, 11:00 am
Considering even TFU was made with sub TPM Kenobi Vader in mind, well, TPM Kenobi will beat Vader. 

Vader has never beaten an opponent beyond Kenobi (who was one of the most powerful Jedi ever at like what, 18-19?).

We can also look at how Sheev views Vader and Maul, Vader is an errand boy, unwanted apprentice etc, whereas Maul was once seen as the perfect apprentice.
SithSauce
SithSauce
Level One
Level One

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 14th 2020, 11:11 am
*sigh*, can people stop making Vader threads from now on pls
Reynard (Ethanion)
Reynard (Ethanion)

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 14th 2020, 11:47 am
@SithSauce wrote:*sigh*, can people stop making Vader threads from now on pls
Big ups.
SithSauce
SithSauce
Level One
Level One

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 14th 2020, 11:48 am
Glad you agree
TheNuisanceBird
TheNuisanceBird

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 14th 2020, 1:01 pm
@Latham2000 wrote:Vader stabbed himself in the gut because he knew he could afford to do and survive. There's no way TPM Kenobi can survive stabbing himself in the gut and survive unless if he immediately gets medical help.

Well to be fair if the small chance of Kenobi ending the fight like that did happen than in that case he'd technically win. But it's not like stabbing Vader would consistently bring him down unless you're Mace or Dooku level.
Dolph
Dolph
Level Three
Level Three

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 15th 2020, 10:42 pm
Vader smacks. Vader is stronger, more skilled, and more masterful than Kenobi. While Kenobi is energetic duelist who has agility on his side, Vader has dealt with duelists like Kenobi on more than one occasion, and knows exactly how to deal with Kenobi. Vader's power seals the deal on this one.
SithSauce
SithSauce
Level One
Level One

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 19th 2020, 7:17 pm
@ScionOfSkywalker77

"The quote you posted merely notes that it was more evenly matched than they suspected it would be (With the implication being that they thought it was likely to be a stomp), not that it was a battle of equals. There's a distinction between the 2, which you'd know if you weren't constantly sucking Vader off"

My bad, while the quote does imply that the Phrophets orginally thought the fight would be one-sided in Maul's favor, that doesn't prelude the idea of Vader and Maul being equal in their confrontation. And this is surported by the comic itself, as the fight goes on for a number of pages before Maul has the upperhand after Vader splits his saber staff in half.
And then we even have Maul straight up admitting that Vader was holding his own well against him shown in the below panel. 
Note, that this is coming from Maul, one of the most arrogant Sith Lords so him giving the slightest compliment to Vader proves that Vader was giving him a fight. Also try not to accuse someone of wanking a character especially when they don't really wank said character that much at all.
ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Maul_c10


"Nor was Vader vs Maul"

Definitely not true. The fight goes on for about 15 pages with them fighting evenly. And while you cannot quantify the actual length of their duel, the fact that they fought equally for 15 pages and when you take into account Maul's compliment and the duel itself was supposed to settle the debate on who would win between Vader and Maul. It makes sense for the writers of the comic to portray the duel as very heated and intense, considering these are two prominent and well respected characters. This isn't Maul vs some average joe Jedi Master, no this is Maul vs Darth Vader. And while Vader does stumble a couple of times in the duel, that can be explained due to his poor agility and mobility compared to Maul,and this is shown in the comic as we see Maul being clearly faster than Vader. However, this doesn't make a Vader a shit fight in anyway possible. As confirmed by several sources Vader's primary form Djem So lacks mobility, it simply isn't geared against a character as mobile and agile as Maul. And with Vader being vastly Pre Prime, it makes sense that he hadn't fully mastered djem so to a level where he could handle mobile oponents. This is even shown in the Purge comics, where Vader right after ROTS struggles to handle himself against multiple jedi and even gets tagged by one of them.


Finally, if you want to go one step further, a major theme of the comic is that Vader has too much lightside in him that would prevent him from winning against Maul. The Phrophets sensed this as well as Maul himself. With this notion, could you not argue that perhaps Vader's light-side hinderance prevented him from performing at a higher level against Maul?




"Nowhere in the duel is it stated that Vader was precluded from using the force, nor would it make sense for that to be the case in a fight meant to decide who the greatest sith apprentice was (Spoiler: Being a sith apprentice has a lot to do with force power). The prophets saying that Vader could "destroy them all" is likely referencing the event where Vader kills them and Maul dies as a result (Don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that a duplicate is bound to the life of his creators)".



Dark Side Prophets: This... This is not possible. We were so certain.

The Dark Side Phrophets were clearly surprised over Vader's victory. If this was a mere cheapshot like some people claim then would the comic not make note of that? The whole point of the comic was to show how powerful Vader is over Maul due to his superior hate. Vader was the one who came out alive after that stab, not Maul.



"Guess who else did that? Oh right, Kenobi."


Kenobi's rage boost after witnessing his master die allowed him to split Maul's saber staff in half. Before that pivotal moment, Kenobi didn't even touch Maul. While a (possibly light-side hindered) pre prime Vader who was confirmed to have grown "formidably" after ANH fought equally with TPM Maul for 15 pages while at a stylistic disadvantage due to his lack of mobility against his oponent. That's honestly better than Kenobi just getting force pushed and kicked off platforms with the help of Qui Gon Jinn and only getting a real advantage on Maul after a rage boost from his master's death.


Last edited by SithSauce on April 19th 2020, 8:53 pm; edited 12 times in total
SithSauce
SithSauce
Level One
Level One

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 19th 2020, 7:19 pm
Will add more ^
Ziggy
Ziggy

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 19th 2020, 8:13 pm
TPM Kenobi is close to Jinn by a small margin in various sources. 

Jinn's fight was better than Vaders by a small margin.

The question of Vader or Maul; who wins, depicted Maul's martial superiority throughout the fight until Vader caused an upset, much like TPM Kenobi did sans stabbing himself.

By all accounts, Rage TPM Kenobi put up a better fight than Vader.  Even though both cut through the saber staff, Kenobi was quick enough to follow up with a kick that put Maul on his ass, Vader was never fast enough to do this.  He also recovered instantly from Maul's own kick, turning it into a backflip.  Whereas Vader needs a moment to compose himself any time Maul touches him (I thought durability was suppose to be Vader's forte?)

Vader being hindered by some deep lingering compassion wouldn't be something exclusive to a fight with Maul


And that's not even touching the comments of The One Above All.  Sorry that both the films and EU failed to literally portray Vader as the tier 9 bad ass you all crave.


Last edited by Ziggy on April 20th 2020, 7:13 am; edited 1 time in total
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 19th 2020, 8:33 pm
Ugh
SithSauce
SithSauce
Level One
Level One

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 19th 2020, 8:50 pm
@Ziggy

"By all accounts, Rage TPM Kenobi put up a better fight than Vader.  Even though both cut through the saber staff, Kenobi was quick enough to follow up with a kick that put Maul on his ass, Vader was never fast enough to do this.  He also recovered instantly from Maul's own kick, turning it into a backflip.  Whereas Vader needs a moment to compose himself any time Maul touches him (I thought durability was suppose to be Maul's forte?)"


Why did Vader need to land a kick on Maul  when his fighting style isn't geared towards doing that kind of thing?


"Vader being hindered by some deep lingering compassion wouldn't be something exclusive to a fight with Maul"


Except that was the sole reason why The Phrophets thought he couldn't defeat Maul?
And even Maul himself sensed it in Vader.

"And that's not even touching the comments of The One Above All.  Sorry that both the films and EU failed to literally portray Vader as the tier 9 bad ass you all crave".

I have seen them all and nothing at all indicates Vader is inferior to TPM Kenobi or Jinn that's just your interpretation. Most people (even the supporters) don't even have Vader as a tier 9 so not sure what you're talking about?
O-Siri
O-Siri

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 19th 2020, 9:20 pm
Still TPM Maul>Jinn>TPM Kenobi>ANH Vader. Statements from the creator of both movies, supported by feats and basic logic. Vader's done literally nothing impressive in the OT timeline. If we only had the movies to go off of I'd be willing to bet no one would balk at the notion of TPM Kenobi beating Vader or outperforming Luke. 

You can make a case for pre-ANH Vader being superior, unfortunately this isn't EU Vader, this is ANH Vader and the OT crew are portrayed as inferior to the PT greats. And yes people can get old overnight in as little as a year. Happens all the time. Force users can also be mentally repressed and lose their abilities in a short period of time; Bane went from being top student rivaled only by Sirak to being unable to use the Force effectively for a while do to depression in just a few weeks. OT Vader being weaker than his EU self by a considerable amount is not at all implausible and it's supported by Lucas who has the most authority in regards to the OT and PT timeline.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 19th 2020, 9:28 pm
Imagine still using reverse scaling
O-Siri
O-Siri

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 19th 2020, 9:37 pm
It's not reverse scaling. TPM Kenobi > ESB/RotJ Luke as per Lucas, the biggest authority on said characters. Basic logic is on Kenobi's side too. Vaders supposedly superior pre-ANH feats can be rationalized as Vader being in his prime during that time period and out of it come OT. You can argue for pre-ANH Vader being superior to TPM Kenobi on the basis of feats and scaling because the EU during that time period doesn't fall under Lucas's jurisdiction. This is ANH Kenobi though.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 19th 2020, 9:40 pm
Gets contradicted by RoTj novel and other sources boi
O-Siri
O-Siri

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 19th 2020, 9:42 pm
RotJ novel is C-canon and it's an outdated source from 1983. The TPM featurate is more recent and up to date.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 19th 2020, 9:45 pm
nope the novelizations of the movies are backed up by Lucas if You wanna see some outdated sources check his statements from 1977
O-Siri
O-Siri

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 19th 2020, 9:50 pm
Is there evidence Lucas's read through and approved the novelization like he did for RotS? Either way his more recent statement made at the time of TPM creation takes precedence over his thoughts in 1983.
O-Siri
O-Siri

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 19th 2020, 9:57 pm
If my argument was contingent on "Oh Luke is a Padawan  therefore Vader sucks and all his other feats are rendered irrelevant" was my only argument you guys would have a point on "reverse scaling". Problem is Luke is officially inferior to TPM Kenobi as per the creator of both. Luke could be a grand master and my point would stand. It's simple scaling, not "reverse scaling". Just wank pre-ANH Vader and use him in debates, that's where all his good showings come from.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level One
Level One

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 19th 2020, 9:58 pm
then by your lógic his statements from 2005 should also overrride his thoughts in Tpm creation 

And yeah it's evidence check insider 160 and 31
Hermaeus Mora
Hermaeus Mora

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 19th 2020, 10:16 pm
Darth Vader.
Sjuttiosju
Sjuttiosju
Level Seven
Level Seven

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 19th 2020, 10:53 pm
@SithSauce:

Learn to be concise. You really could have condensed that wall of text into something a lot shorter. Given the amount of time you spent addressing points I never made or repeating yourself this won't be a line by line rebuttal, but rather a refutation of the key arguments that matter. Anyhow:

My bad, while the quote does imply that the Phrophets orginally thought the fight would be one-sided in Maul's favor, that doesn't prelude the idea of Vader and Maul being equal in their confrontation.

It doesn't preclude the idea, but the quote itself is still not evidence for that position as explained prior. Your only shot at proving equality is debating the fight itself, which favours Maul, not Vader.

And this is surported by the comic itself, as the fight goes on for a number of pages before Maul has the upperhand after Vader splits his saber staff in half.

The number of pages is irrelevant when contrasted with the details of those same pages, which show Maul being a dominant force that lands physical strikes left and right while Vader accomplishes nothing.

And then we even have Maul straight up admitting that Vader was holding his own well against him shown in the below panel.

The same can be said of Kenobi.

Also try not to accuse someone of wanking a character especially when they don't really wank said character that much at all.

Just telling it how it is.

It makes sense for the writers of the comic to portray the duel as very heated and intense, considering these are two prominent and well respected characters.

Sure, but that doesn't mean they were equal.

Finally, if you want to go one step further, a major theme of the comic is that Vader has too much lightside in him that would prevent him from winning against Maul. The Phrophets sensed this as well as Maul himself. With this notion, could you not argue that perhaps Vader's light-side hinderance prevented him from performing at a higher level against Maul?

This wouldn't be exclusive to the Maul fight. Moreover, the entire point is that ultimately the prophets were wrong.

The Dark Side Phrophets were clearly surprised over Vader's victory.

Because they underestimated the depths of Vader's self hatred. That doesn't prove he's the greater combatant.

If this was a mere cheapshot like some people claim then would the comic not make note of that? The whole point of the comic was to show how powerful Vader is over Maul due to his superior hate.

The comic doesn't exist to prove who's the more powerful combatant, but which of them actually wins in a brawl (The result of a fight isn't solely predicated on force power). The answer is Vader, because while Maul may be more powerful, his hatred doesn't run as deep nor is he as determined. What Vader ultimately demonstrates is his worth to Sheev and his devotion to the darkness. Neither of which means he's more powerful.

Vader was the one who came out alive after that stab, not Maul.

Due to differences in area of penetration + Vader's armour.

Kenobi's rage boost

Which demonstrably isn't that large.

To conclude:

>Vader is generally dominated throughout the fight and can just about hold on.
>TPM Kenobi is not dominated, actually more or less matching Maul while lasting just as long as Vader (Bare minimum).
>Vader's best accomplishment in the fight was replicated by TPM Kenobi.
>Vader stabbing himself is not a display of power in any capacity.

That'll be all... for now.


Last edited by ScionOfSkywalker77 on April 22nd 2020, 11:27 am; edited 1 time in total
Meatpants
Meatpants
Moderator | Champion of Darkness
Moderator | Champion of Darkness

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 20th 2020, 2:25 am
The Kenobi who bumrushed Maul after seeing his father-figure get cut down isn't base Kenobi lol.
O-Siri
O-Siri

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 20th 2020, 2:50 am
@The lord of hunger wrote:then by your lógic his statements from 2005 should also overrride his thoughts in Tpm creation 

And yeah it's evidence check insider 160 and 31
What 2005 quotes?
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 3 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

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