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freethedevil
freethedevil

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on May 9th 2020, 10:07 am
I don't need a "cop-out" given the existence of TCW which, IIRC was part of the same legends continuity. This showing only maintains applicability in a timeline where Maul is deprived of all post-tpm showings.  ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 1648373583 

That said, your interpretation is reasonable, if speculative. Disregarding that this duel has been retconned, there is context to be considered here.

1. The planet is a dark side nexus, and per Maul, the priestesses and basically all surrounding vader lore for this time period, vader wasn't anywhere near as commited to the dark side as maul was.

2. After noting Vader can contend with him, Maul takes the fight to a bunch of lava rocks. Given this version of Vader's consistent issues regarding mobility, I think it's fairly obvious the environment was unfavorable. You can say that's speculation but then again, so is "maul's life is tied to the priestesses."

Disregarding issues of canoncity, putting tpm maul at anh vader's level is reasonable, Saying Maul "handily beat him" is a stretch.
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on May 9th 2020, 11:01 am
"You could destroy us all with the Force" isn't a direct quotation - the actual quote is just them saying Vader could destroy them all (the Force is never mentioned), but Sidious would think less of him. Why would Sidious think less of Vader for ripping Maul to shreds with the Force? "Congratulations, you destroyed him and proved yourself stronger, but it doesn't count because you used the Force." That seems very in character for Sidious to say... not.

Wrong. Sidious would expect Vader to prove he is the superior apprentice overall. That includes saber skill, physicals, tactical abilities, and exploiting his opponent's weaknesses. Being more powerful in the Force is meaningless if you're worse with a saber, a less skilled fighter, and worse when it comes to tactical abilities. Sidious wanted someone who could enforce his will and crush threats, not a moron whose only strength is pummelling people with the Force.



Moreover, the fight was set up to determine who is the stronger apprentice: Vader or Maul, yet it is apparently limited to sabers only? That seems highly suspect.

Respectfully, have you read the actual comic summary?


Ladies and Gentlemen! Boys and Girls! Droids and Jawas! Prepare yourselves for the battle of the century! In this corner, weighing in at 220 pounds, the terror from Tatooine, the'Dark Lord of the Sith, the former Anakin Skywalker-Darth Vader! And in this corner, weighing in at 175 pounds, a killer of Jedi, the 'NabooAnnihilator', Darth Sidious' #1 apprentice-Darth Maul!

-


Easy. Have him knuckle up against Darth Vader. Maul is vicious, physical, and primal. Vader is focused and calculating… but still has the faintest trace of Humanity. Both have succumbed to the dark side of the Force . Both are ambitious. But Sith  law says there's only room for one.

I wasn't aware physical weight and CQC fighting styles were relevant to Force power. Also doesn't make sense that the Force was used, since, you know, they were jumping from terrain to terrain as Maul controlled where the fight was held and the two are primarily martial fighters who only use the Force when necessary. ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 1668617588


I'd posit another explanation - that being that Maul's life is directly tied to the prophets (they die, he dies), as they created him (assuming he functions like a traditional doppelganger).




Yeah, nah. You're going to need to justify that, since it's regarded as the Darth Maul, who was "resurrected", not cloned, imitated or created by a vision. Your argument is then also baseless, as it implies that it's the power of the Prophets' keeping Maul alive, indicating that they fuel him and therefore must be ~ Vader. Alternatively, Maul is simply incapable of occupying Vader and stopping Vader from potentially not only killing him, but the Prophets as well. That speaks to the idea that Maul is either A) well below ANH Vader in raw power, or B) Maul isn't enough of a threat to require Vader's full attention (unlike other opponents throughout SW) and thus is below Vader.


That makes far more sense of the statement without jumping to absurd conclusions like Vader being able to destroy Maul with the Force, yet not doing so for basically the whole duel.

Already explained this which you've yet to refute except to argue two characters who almost always engage with sabers first and rely on the Force later would - for some reason - immediately use the Force despite trying to prove that they're the superior Sith, not the superior Force user:




 But Sith  law says there's only room for one.



Make sure you're here on September 12th, 2001 for the answer to the question on everyone's lips: "Who's tougher? Vader or Maul?" Let the BATTLE begin!

Not to mention "tougher" is almost certainly referring to physicals and CQC abilities. 

As for Filoni:



Uprooting from Los Angeles to San Francisco was an easy choice for Filoni and his wife, Anne, a writer and teacher. For the next eight years, he worked side by side with Lucas, telling the battlefield stories of Anakin Skywalker before his transformation into Darth Vader, when he was fighting alongside Obi-Wan Kenobi and nurturing his own Padawan learner, the alien Ahsoka Tano, a young girl with distinctive white and blue “head tails” instead of hair, who was just as defiant and clever as her master. The metaphor couldn’t be more apt. Filoni was persuasive—he could push—and the trust he earned allowed him to translate Lucas’s vision in ways that strengthened them both.

“One day, George said, ‘Do you know why I enjoy working with you?’ And I said, ‘No, I have no idea,’ ” Filoni recalled. “He said, ‘Well, you listen to me.’ ” Filoni lets that sink in. “A lot of people think you need to come and impress someone. They think, I’m going to show you or do better. They don’t always think you impress somebody by listening.”

Lucas brought up the same point when VANITY FAIR asked him about Filoni. “I immediately found him to be very open-minded and a great listener, which are qualities I admire because it opens a person up to new experiences,” he said. Lucas didn’t want to take as much credit for Filoni’s success as Filoni was willing to give him: “I was just giving him advice along the way.” But Lucas guided Filoni to make the series more cinematic, and they shaped each story arc together. The advice he’d give Filoni going forward? “To stay open-minded and realize that there’s still a lot to learn. There’s always something to learn.”


I'd say Filoni is as much of an authority as anyone, and arguably rivals Chee.

So to clarify:

1.Two martial fighters attack each other across constantly shifting terrain.
2. On even ground, Vader was holding his own against Maul, per Maul's own words.
3. The fight clearly is primarily - if not almost entirely - focused on physicals (strength, speed, agility, durability), with Vader using the Force only twice: once to force Maul to break his opening assault that Vader isn't in a position to fend against at this point, and once to levitate a rock Maul is standing on to force Maul to move so they can re-engage in sabers. Apart from this, Vader makes absolutely no attempt to use the Force offensively or defensively, and instead focuses completely on engaging in saber combat. 
4. Thus, there's no basis to say Vader, a martial fighter who rarely uses the Force to dispatch Force users or worthy opponents and who has been reminded that Sidious would view his refusal to prove he is superior overall (not just in the Force) as cowardice and unworthiness, is ~/< Maul in the Force.
Meatpants
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on May 9th 2020, 12:12 pm
Even if the comic can be used, it still gets one-shot by George Lucas, so it doesn’t matter.
SithSauce
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on May 9th 2020, 12:14 pm
How does it get one shot by GL?
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on May 9th 2020, 12:17 pm
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@Meatpants wrote:Even if the comic can be used, it still gets one-shot by George Lucas, so it doesn’t matter.
So basically you're relying on the words of someone stated by several Lucasfilm reps to contradict himself around the time he was promoting a new trilogy's choreography, who also was primarily referring to energy and acrobatics - that can be reconciled with the ANH depiction to mean he wasn't less "skilled", only less energetic - and change his ideas very frequently, who then went on to clarify a clear difference between ANH and ESB Vader (indicating ESB Vader is not bound by these quotes) to argue Lucas has Vader below TPM Kenobi.

Then we have Filoni stating Vader > Maul. Note that Filoni has worked with Lucas for eight years, is regarded "like a son" to George, and has been personally entrusted by Lucas to deliver his vision of key events like TCW that Lucas had previously blocked, including the "Dark Times" between ROTS and ANH, which were blocked until after Episode 3:

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 Scree124

And Filoni still consults Lucas to ensure everything he does is in line with Lucas' - who he refers to as "the canon" - vision:


Filoni spoke to IndieWire , confirming that although the series has evolved since George Lucas helmed the franchise, Filoni still tries to keep his Star Wars projects in line with Lucas' original vision."We still talk and if I'm stuck I will bug George for ideas, because he is the canon," He said. Filoni continued, "He created it and I respect that. One of my many jobs and purposes is to keep things as intact as to what George laid down as possible. It is for kids -- George would always say that over the years -- but the beauty is that everyone can watch and enjoy it if you get the show right."

This includes the proposed Maul vs Vader matchup and how they compare to each other.
SithSauce
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on May 9th 2020, 12:32 pm
@BOD Do you have the Filoni Vader>Maul quote?
TheNuisanceBird
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on May 9th 2020, 12:39 pm
@SithSauce wrote:@BOD Do you have the Filoni Vader>Maul quote?

Well even by ourselves in Rebels Maul basically says outright that he's inferior.
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on May 9th 2020, 12:41 pm
@SithSauce wrote:@BOD Do you have the Filoni Vader>Maul quote?
He's said Vader > Maul on two different occasions, once that Vader was meant to beat and kill him before fighting Ahsoka, indicating that the fight would only have last a bit due to Filoni wanting to focus on Vader vs Ahsoka: 

Originally Maul perished in the season two finale where he returned. It was a one-off appearance. So originally in that episode you were gonna get Vader fighting Maul, Vader would have killed Maul, and then fought Ahsoka,



And another saying Maul is "kinda" around Vader's level: 

''Maul is a super dangerous threat. Because he has been trained for years. He’s really adept. So he’s kind of in the Vader realm. He’s well trained by Sidious in all types of Sith ways. Not the least of which is manipulation.''



And then there's Rebels Maul:

cannot defeat Vader alone

It's safe to say Filoni is talking generally and not just about canon due to his attempts to adhere to Lucas' vision of Star Wars, which is noticeably different from that of Lucas'.
freethedevil
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on May 9th 2020, 1:38 pm
I'm assuming this was a legends discussion. That aside, this debate over whether the fight was c-canon or not isn't relevant. C canon becomes non canon when it contradicts the saga or tcw.
Latham2000
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on May 9th 2020, 2:11 pm
Filoni probably knows Lucas better than Gillard tbh.
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on May 9th 2020, 2:25 pm
@Latham2000 wrote:Filoni probably knows Lucas better than Gillard tbh.
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on May 9th 2020, 3:22 pm
the 2005 Statements George Lucas said about suit Vader was about Vader's Potential.

He said: Vader before His injuries had the abilities to be Twice as powerful as Sidious, But now he is 20% less. 


I think it more so talking about his Potential, But Regardless that Quote from George Lucas Validates the arguments in here for Vader being way more powerful than TPM Maul. 


Maul in the Resurrected fight slashed Vaders Control pads on his suit and still lost against Vader. That isn't a good feat or argument for Maul...and that was only light saber combat as the people who revived Maul stated Vader with the force can easily solo and take everyone including maul out but that his master wouldn't be pleads  and he would always have doubt that who was the better sith. 


Again, That proves Vader with the force>>Maul.

Finally, after ROTS, Pablo Hidalgo Stated Vader can defeat POST ROTS Yoda. 


That alone puts Vader way above The likes of Maul.  Yeah, Filoni has stated that Vader is indeed more powerful than Maul.  Everyone needs to stop with this "Sub TPM Obi-wan" stuff and just accept that Vader is more powerful than you originally thought.
O-Siri
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on May 10th 2020, 6:56 am
@Lantham2000

1. No the reason Vader and Ben aren’t real Jedi is because they are old past prime and half droid. It’s not speculation it’s what he said. It’s not a stylistic preference as you guys are trying to make it out.

Maul IS that much better than Vader by feats also. He dominated Vader. Outmaneuvered him out hustled him and plain outfought him. He pierced his guard multiple times without receiving anything back in return. 

Evidence Filini’s opinion of Maul and Vader is derivative of Lucas and not his own? It’s impossible to prove. But I don’t have to prove a negative because I have direct quotes from Lucas which is superior to speculation without evidence.

2.At least 18. The statement regarding his lack of battle hardening is factually false to say the least. Surprise the reality of 1999 with next to no information on the PT is different than the one of today’s.

3.I wouldn’t be surprised if they are. Lucas certainly didn’t sound like he held a high opinion of the three’s fighting prowess.

4. Its still an enormous advantage especially with nothing to counterbalance experience. With Maul all the advantages except  experience were skewed in his favor. It’s the opposite with Kenobi and Luke. 


Define real Jedi? According to Lucas someone who isn’t old crippled half machine half droid or young boys who learned from theses old people.

5.Ever heard of the saying “got old overnight”? A lot can change in a year. I’ve seen people look just as good as ever in one fight then they look like **** in the very next.

Maybe it doesn’t make sense but it’s how he is portrayed consistently  in the OT era which is why Vader always needs an excuse for low showings, he’s always “massively” pre-prime, hindered, conflicted, ptsd, holding back, etc. His mythical absolute peak only seems to exist in an inaccessible vault never allowed to appear in the source material in full.

6. Ben retaining some of his old skills doesn’t negate the fact that he is, as per Lucas, a washed up old man who is “getting too old for this sort of thing” next to his TPM self. Yeah RotS Kenobi is one level above TPM Kenobi. He’s also miles superior to Ben who’s a walking corpse by comparison.
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on May 10th 2020, 7:22 am
@BoD @freethedevil I'll make sure to get back to you both some time during the week.
SithSauce
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on May 10th 2020, 3:00 pm
@0-Siri It's highly implausible that Ben would just allow himself to degrade so badly to the point where he is massively below his TPM incarnation when he is supposed to be looking out for Luke
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on May 10th 2020, 5:08 pm
Nice matchup
Jedi_Jesus
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on May 10th 2020, 5:49 pm
Vader ragdolls. ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 228124001 

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in canon ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 228124001
SithSauce
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on May 10th 2020, 6:06 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
In legends as well ^
O-Siri
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on May 10th 2020, 8:00 pm
@SithSauce wrote:@0-Siri It's highly implausible that Ben would just allow himself to degrade so badly to the point where he is massively below his TPM incarnation when he is supposed to be looking out for Luke
Who says he let himself go? Between the natural aging process, the premature aging caused by Tatooines harsh climate, ring rust, and all the injuries he accumulated in the Clone Wars it’s only natural he took a massive step backwards.

TPM Kenobi is underrated. The guy is 25, he’s fully developed, older and more mature than TPM Maul and RotS Anakin. People act like he’s just a kid who’s barely sprouted wings when really he was probably as good as an offensive duelist as he got. As Jinn says there was very little he could still learn from him. He might even be better than AOTC Kenobi in terms of offense. 

Speculation aside Lucas who directed both movies and created both iterations of the character outright says Ben is inferior to TPM Kenobi.
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on May 10th 2020, 9:08 pm
Goddamn, you made being wrong at every conceivable level an art form
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on May 10th 2020, 9:22 pm
Who says he let himself go? Between the natural aging process, the premature aging caused by Tatooines harsh climate, ring rust, and all the injuries he accumulated in the Clone Wars it’s only natural he took a massive step backwards.

Please prove that these made him drop so much that he's suddenly solidly below TPM Kenobi, when we have confirmation that Kenobi kept up his Jedi training, did his best to protect Luke (meaning he'd stay in shape as best he could) and who underwent considerable spiritual training during this period? Also, please provide sources for how any injuries Kenobi suffered in the Clone Wars would have aged him? 



TPM Kenobi is underrated. The guy is 25, he’s fully developed, older and more mature than TPM Maul and RotS Anakin. People act like he’s just a kid who’s barely sprouted wings when really he was probably as good as an offensive duelist as he got. As Jinn says there was very little he could still learn from him. He might even be better than AOTC Kenobi in terms of offense. 

Better than an AOTC Kenobi with 10 years of power, skill and emotional growth? Yeah, I'm calling bull on that. Also, please explain how being more mature than TPM Maul (which is honestly not even true) and ROTS Anakin (who's a manchild with the powers of a god) means anything?



Speculation aside Lucas who directed both movies and created both iterations of the character outright says Ben is inferior to TPM Kenobi.

He says he's not as fast nor as energetic. By that logic, I assume you have Mace and Sidious - whose fight was very slow by comparison - capped below TPM Kenobi because they're not faster, more energetic or more acrobatic.
O-Siri
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on May 11th 2020, 1:48 am
@BoD wrote:
Who says he let himself go? Between the natural aging process, the premature aging caused by Tatooines harsh climate, ring rust, and all the injuries he accumulated in the Clone Wars it’s only natural he took a massive step backwards.

Please prove that these made him drop so much that he's suddenly solidly below TPM Kenobi,
@O-Siri: Simple Lucas says TPM Kenobi is a real Jedi in his prime while Ben is an old man who isn’t a real Jedi.

when we have confirmatio that Kenobi kept up his Jedi training,
did his best to protect Luke (meaning he'd stay in shape as best he could) and who underwent considerable spiritual training during this period

None of that factually prevents decay born from aging. Lots of over the hillers train just as hard but can’t go to the well like they used to. Your  speculation is shot down by both Lucas’s statement and the narrative “I’m getting too old for this sort of thing”. 



Also, please provide sources for how any injuries Kenobi suffered in the Clone Wars would have aged him? 
all you need to do is look at the real world for examples. It’s called wear and tear. The human body isn’t designed for punishment. Injuries, especially grievous injuries and sustained punishment do stack and shortened your prime.


TPM Kenobi is underrated. The guy is 25, he’s fully developed, older and more mature than TPM Maul and RotS Anakin. People act like he’s just a kid who’s barely sprouted wings when really he was probably as good as an offensive duelist as he got. As Jinn says there was very little he could still learn from him. He might even be better than AOTC Kenobi in terms of offense. 

Better than an AOTC Kenobi with 10 years of power, skill and emotional growth? Yeah, I'm calling bull on that.
Its not implausible for Kenobi to have peaked as an Ataru duelist in TPM. Kenobi changed his style and spent the intervening 10 years learning Soresu from the bottom up making him something of a late bloomer.  He’s learning new skills not enhancing his old ones. If it wasn’t for his natural affinity for Soresu he probably would have already peaked overall as a combatant.

Also, please explain how being more mature than TPM Maul (which is honestly not even true) and ROTS Anakin (who's a manchild with the powers of a god) means anything?

Because he’s completed the most important stages of his development both biologically and emotionally. His growth rate after that is going to plateau naturally now that he’s more settled in life unlike someone still going through his formative years like AotC Anakin or ESB and RotJ Luke.



Speculation aside Lucas who directed both movies and created both iterations of the character outright says Ben is inferior to TPM Kenobi.

He says he's not as fast nor as energetic.
And the reason for that being is that Ben is old and past prime.  Not a real jedi.

By that logic, I assume you have Mace and Sidious - whose fight was very slow by comparison - capped below TPM Kenobi because they're not faster, more energetic or more acrobatic.
No because Lucas doesn’t feel the need for an in universe explanation for the choreography. He’s made it clear only Mace and Yoda can compete with Sidious. 
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on May 14th 2020, 5:59 am
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@O-Siri wrote:1. No the reason Vader and Ben aren’t real Jedi is because they are old past prime and half droid. It’s not speculation it’s what he said. It’s not a stylistic preference as you guys are trying to make it out.

You are wrong, I'd say that in that specific quote, Lucas defines real Jedi as those who are a faster and more energetic version of the old people (Ben Kenobi), half droids (Vader) and young boys who learned from these old people (Luke Skywalker), he uses those words to describe Vader, Luke and Ben, not that being an old person, half droid and young boy learning from these old people are what prevents them from being "real Jedi," and speaking of what "real Jedi" are, Lucas has actually contradicted himself about this 20 years later, which further convinces me that Lucas's "real Jedi" remarks aren't even about combat prowess, because let's take a look at this other quote:

George Lucas: The thing is, in IV, V, and VI, you didn’t really get to see real Jedi in action. To me, that was something that a lot of people would want to see. And of course, the other part is, where are the Jedi at this point? What are they? We’ve never seen one, really, except for Obi-Wan.

Source -- “All Films Are Personal”: An Oral History of Star Wars: Episode I The Phantom Menace

George, in 2019, says that we didn't see any "real Jedi in action" in the OT, "except for Obi-Wan" meaning that Ben Kenobi is a real Jedi, though Vader and Luke are not real Jedi by Lucas's line of thought even after the prequel trilogy's completion. When taking into consideration that Vader held his own against Ben Kenobi (who is a confirmed "real Jedi"), fighting evenly, arguably beating him given that the G canon ANH script says "Ben seems to be under increasing pressure and strain, as if an invisible weight were being placed upon him. He shakes his head and, blinking, tries to clear his eyes." this even further convinces me that these "real Jedi" remarks might have something to do with something else entirely; Ben Kenobi is "a real Jedi," like the PT era Jedi, whereas Luke and Vader are not, and the reason for that is because Ben grew up and lived in the Jedi order during the prime of the Jedi circa the PT era, was formally trained by the Jedi of that era, was a member of that Jedi order, stuck to the Jedi code religiously, even after the Jedi order gets destroyed, he still stay trues to the Jedi way that he taught by the PT era Jedi, so in that sense, he is a "real Jedi".

Vader isn't a real Jedi, because he is no longer a Jedi because he abandoned his Jedi ways, betrayed the Jedi order, nearly drove the Jedi to extinction, and is a Sith Lord during the OT (he only becomes Anakin again when he betrays Palpatine, but by then he's not even fighting anyone, he has one hand and on the verge of death). 

Luke isn't a real Jedi, because he was not formally trained by the Jedi order of the PT era, which is the prime of the Jedi, he was trained by a retired Obi-Wan,  received training from an exiled Yoda, and taught himself how to wield and master the lightsaber. Luke's lightsaber training was actually self taught for the most part, he recieved a bit of blaster deflection training from Ben and learned some technique from his journals but not from Obi-Wan himself, and the training he received from Yoda was about his relationship with the Force and Jedi values, as opposed to lightsaber practise. Much of what Luke learned in lightsaber combat, was from Vader, who is a Sith Lord, not a Jedi, and also from Obi-Wan's journals that he used to teach himself, but not from Obi-Wan himself. 

Maul IS that much better than Vader by feats also. He dominated Vader. Outmaneuvered him out hustled him and plain outfought him. He pierced his guard multiple times without receiving anything back in return.

This is an incredible exaggeration. Vader was outmatched, but he was not outclassed, Maul and Vader's fight in the Resurrection story indicates that Maul is the better swordsman, but not that he is a "IS that much better than Vader," Maul lands 5 hits in a fight that went on for at least 15 pages, and which is incredibly lengthy because comic fights are usually really condensed due to the limitations of the medium, but this one spanned out for over a dozen pages. In fact where you're wrong is that Vader DOES land something back in return - he blocks Maul's kick and proceeds to slicing Maul's saberstaff in two, something that Qui-Gon did not achieve. Granted, TPM Obi-Wan achieved also achieved this, but that only occured because Obi-Wan was fuelled by a tremendous rage boost over seeing his surrogate father (which the Dark Side Sourcebook says gave Kenobi "renewed strength") getting murdered according to this quote:

"He wore down Qui-Gon's defenses and dispatched the Jedi Master with a quick jab to the chest. The act enraged Obi-Wan, who attacked Darth Maul in a rush. Though Obi-Wan's heated assault cut through the Sith Lord's double-ended lightsaber handle, it left him vulnerable to a sudden counterattack." -- Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 2020-03-26

Granted, the quote also says that Obi-Wan's rage boost left him vulnerable to a sudden counter attack i.e. Maul's Force push, but that's not saying anything because Maul didn't need to Force push Kenobi to put him in the shaft, given that TPM comic shows Maul kicking Kenobi down the shaft, TPM novel shows that Maul pummels Kenobi down the shaft with the sheer force of his lightsaber assault, TPM junior novel he puts Kenobi down the shaft with "a mighty stroke," i.e. likely a kick or same as what happened in the senior novel, so Force pushing Kenobi down the shaft wasn't the only viable option that Maul had, it was an option, but not his only option as the other versions of the fight prove, while the movie, novel, junior novel and Comic Book contradict each other on how Maul put Kenobi down the shaft, but that's attributable to Maul using different tactics in the varying depictions.

Evidence Filini’s opinion of Maul and Vader is derivative of Lucas and not his own? It’s impossible to prove. But I don’t have to prove a negative because I have direct quotes from Lucas which is superior to speculation without evidence.

The problem is that the quotes you've cited can be intepretated in other ways though (especially given that Lucas says Ben Kenobi is a "real Jedi" so many years later), whereas Filoni is more clear. Filoni's view of Maul and Vader is very likely derivative of Lucas's, because Filoni has said that he consciously follows Lucas's line of thought whenever he spoke in an interview about TCW and SWR, before and after Lucas left the company. Filoni himself has said that his line of thought is largely influenced by Lucas, and he tries to think like Lucas:

Dave Filoni: I've shown him Rebels, he's seen it, and he knows that I followed the lessons I was taught as a good Jedi I should, but I'm expanding certain things that I wanted to do, but nothing I feel is out of port with what he would have done, every decision I made on Clone Wars I did, any interview I did, I said "Is this something I would say or do if George was here in the room?" because I so greatly respect that it's his universe and even to this day as I go forward doing things I always ask myself is that something he'd really want? You know the fans want all kinds of things, you can't get caught up in that I'll tell you why: It's because Star Wars is so strong after so many years and people love so many different aspects of it you have to be careful what you're serving so you have to always serve the story of Star Wars and characters of Star Wars and I would say for the Prequel kids who love their Prequel movies they're very hopeful now about all the things they love about it and I love them too and they get a lot of flak, the Prequels, whatever I don't care. There's some of the most exciting moments in those films and I've always been a big supporter of them and I'm still you know, I treat Rebels the same way I did Clone Wars which is if it's something I bring it in. So there's still stuff from the EU, what was called the EU is now called Legends that appears in Rebels from

^^(Go to 1:20)^^

2.At least 18. The statement regarding his lack of battle hardening is factually false to say the least. Surprise the reality of 1999 with next to no information on the PT is different than the one of today’s.

What kind of battles were they? Where they all duels to the death? Were they all against lightsaber wielding opponents?

3. I wouldn’t be surprised if they are. Lucas certainly didn’t sound like he held a high opinion of the three’s fighting prowess.

I disagree, because Lucas wrote ANH script, a source where Vader strains Ben Kenobi, who has directly been confirmed as a real Jedi by Lucas himself, years after the PT was complete.

4. Its still an enormous advantage especially with nothing to counterbalance experience. With Maul all the advantages except  experience were skewed in his favor. It’s the opposite with Kenobi and Luke.

But Luke hasn't got anything that locks him beneath TPM Obi-Wan, these "real Jedi" statements aren't adequate proof, they're suspect because Ben Kenobi is still a real Jedi.

Define real Jedi? According to Lucas someone who isn’t old crippled half machine half droid or young boys who learned from theses old people.

This definition is hardly conclusive because Ben Kenobi is been confirmed as a "real Jedi," and ANH Vader still strained him whilst trying to cover up his own PTSD episodes at the same time ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 1668617588

5.Ever heard of the saying “got old overnight”? A lot can change in a year. I’ve seen people look just as good as ever in one fight then they look like **** in the very next.

I know how much can change in a year, but Vader was already pretty old by TFU, and he's "more machine than man," so bringing up age is reaching, plus Vader's fighting style didn't go through any change between TFU and ANH. At best you can argue that Vader is complacent by ANH, but that's due to him not getting to have a fight with someone who will force Vader to exert himself, it's a matter of motivation, not a matter of skill.

Maybe it doesn’t make sense but it’s how he is portrayed consistently in the OT era which is why Vader always needs an excuse for low showings, he’s always “massively” pre-prime, hindered, conflicted, ptsd, holding back, etc. His mythical absolute peak only seems to exist in an inaccessible vault never allowed to appear in the source material in full.

Vader's low showing against Ben is hardly a low showing, but he definitely experienced a PTSD episode because Vader's memories of getting maimed on Mustafar slowed down the tempo of his attack and focus more on cautious defense. Vader's low showing against Luke in ESB is due to Luke BFR'ing Vader, and it was stated that talent was the reason why Luke was able to challenge Vader, and there's also the fact that Luke was in his A game in that fight, fuelled by intense anger and resentment towards Vader, even Lucas mentioned that in the birth of a lightsaber featurette. Star Wars is a constantly evolving universe, Vader's best lightsaber combat feats are mostly in material that was released in 2005 and beyond, because at that point, the Prequels had been fully fleshed out.

6. Ben retaining some of his old skills doesn’t negate the fact that he is, as per Lucas, a washed up old man who is “getting too old for this sort of thing” next to his TPM self. Yeah RotS Kenobi is one level above TPM Kenobi. He’s also miles superior to Ben who’s a walking corpse by comparison.

Ben said he is "getting too old for this sort of thing" because he's bored and fed up of violence and war, which doesn't say anything about how good he is when he has no choice but to fight. Ben being a washed up old man can easily mean that he's not at his peak anymore. RotS Kenobi is also miles superior to TPM Kenobi too.


Last edited by Latham2000 on May 14th 2020, 10:39 am; edited 1 time in total
Latham2000
Latham2000
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on May 14th 2020, 6:26 am
@freethedevil wrote:Interesting. Still, wouldn't it be retconned by TCW? TCW was part of the old eu, no?

Regardless, for all using the fight, this still applies:
Secondly, the only reason the duel even happened is because the priestesses dared him to not use the force. Said priestesses said, "you could destroy us all with the force." That includes Maul.

Fodder still gets his neck snapped  ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 1648373583

Sorry for the late reply. No, not really. I don't know what you mean by old EU, if you mean Legends continuity, yes because TCW S1-S5. it's pre-2014 tie in material and SoD comics fall under that continuity because it was T canon and C canon. The only thing that TCW has retconned is the premise that Maul died in TPM, Resurrection's depiction of how these versions of Maul and Vader compare hasn't been retconned by TCW though. If the prophets were really saying Vader can kill Maul and the prophets via the Force (which I am  not convinced by), then that helps Vader ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 3705225348
freethedevil
freethedevil

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on May 14th 2020, 3:16 pm
@Latham2000 wrote:
@freethedevil wrote:Interesting. Still, wouldn't it be retconned by TCW? TCW was part of the old eu, no?

Regardless, for all using the fight, this still applies:
Secondly, the only reason the duel even happened is because the priestesses dared him to not use the force. Said priestesses said, "you could destroy us all with the force." That includes Maul.

Fodder still gets his neck snapped  ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 1648373583

Sorry for the late reply. No, not really. I don't know what you mean by old EU, if you mean Legends continuity, yes because TCW S1-S5. it's pre-2014 tie in material and SoD comics fall under that continuity because it was T canon and C canon. The only thing that TCW has retconned is the premise that Maul died in TPM, Resurrection's depiction of how these versions of Maul and Vader compare hasn't been retconned ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 3705225348
If the premise has been retconned, then, by extension, everything built on said premise has been retconned. That's how premises work. Intent means jackshit if the material created with said intent didn't really happen. ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 5 1220391476
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