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Ziggy
Ziggy

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 4 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 20th 2020, 7:27 am
@SithSauce wrote:@Ziggy

Why did Vader need to land a kick on Maul  when his fighting style isn't geared towards doing that kind of thing?


Isn't geared to > doesn't have the mobility.  

Obviously using forgiving exposition isn't going to save Vader.  I think above all else, mobility is more crucial than any other stat when it comes to duelling, seen as Jedi aren't wielding broadswords, but rather concentrated beams of metal-cutting plasma.  Strength is heavily mitigated with such a powerful blade, speed is the difference between life and death.    

And like I said, Kenobi's heightened speed allowed a kick after cutting the double staff.  His constitution was good enough to Immediately recover from Maul's kick, whereas Vader needed moments of reprieve anytime the Zabrak touched him.  


Except that was the sole reason why The Phrophets thought he couldn't defeat Maul?
And even Maul himself sensed it in Vader.

Like I said, this "weakness" wouldn't be something exclusive to a fight with Maul.  


I have seen them all and nothing at all indicates Vader is inferior to TPM Kenobi or Jinn that's just your interpretation. 

Because Lucas clearly intended the TPM fights to depict an upgraded version of the OT fights, indicative of better warriors.  I mean the fact that Luke can challenge Vader with the scant training he had in ESB makes it obvious the half man/machine isn't what you want him to be. 


Most people (even the supporters) don't even have Vader as a tier 9 so not sure what you're talking about?

He's not even the tier 8 you guys want him to be either then.
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 4 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 20th 2020, 10:25 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
@O-Siri wrote:If my argument was contingent on "Oh Luke is a Padawan  therefore Vader sucks and all his other feats are rendered irrelevant" was my only argument you guys would have a point on "reverse scaling". Problem is Luke is officially inferior to TPM Kenobi as per the creator of both. Luke could be a grand master and my point would stand. It's simple scaling, not "reverse scaling". Just wank pre-ANH Vader and use him in debates, that's where all his good showings come from.

This isn't true. All what Lucas says that he wanted the PT era Jedi to be "So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I wanted it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what" of the OT era Jedi were, all that actually means is that the PT era Jedi are faster paced and more energetic duelists than the OT era Jedi, which is hardly an indication of superiority over Vader beacuse he's not a speed orientated duelist, his lightsaber technique doesn't function like that, and Luke's lightsaber technique in the movies is a mirror image of Vader's, according to Fightaber. But if we actually (mis)intepretate that quote as a confirmation of superiority (which it isn't), then that means nearly all the PT era Jedi, if not all of them, are better than the Vader and Luke, because pretty much of them are fast paced and energetic duelists, plus it would also mean that TPM Kenobi is prime Kenobi, or in Lucas's own words, "Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi," which automatically screws up everything up, because we'd also have to have to swallow the pill that RotS Kenobi is a post-prime Kenobi, and we would have this wonderful scaling: TPM Maul > TPM Qui-Gon > TPM Obi-Wan > RotS Obi-Wan > ANH Obi-Wan. But we know that Lucas doesn't actually consider RotS Obi-Wan to be sub-TPM Kenobi based on that tier system that he and Gillard worked on together (TPM/AotC Kenobi is graded as a 7, RotS Kenobi is graded as an 8), so arguing that Lucas's "Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi," includes TPM Kenobi, is just silly, because TPM Kenobi isn't prime Kenobi.


I could also say that Lucas's statement only applies to the "Films only continuity" as opposed to the "Films + EU continuity" because the former is all about choreagraphy.


Last edited by Latham2000 on April 20th 2020, 12:03 pm; edited 2 times in total
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 4 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 20th 2020, 10:25 am
@O-Siri wrote:
@The lord of hunger wrote:then by your lógic his statements from 2005 should also overrride his thoughts in Tpm creation 

And yeah it's evidence check insider 160 and 31
What 2005 quotes?
80% quote and literally the entire interview of the cult of darth vader
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 4 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 20th 2020, 10:34 am
@Latham2000 wrote:
@O-Siri wrote:If my argument was contingent on "Oh Luke is a Padawan  therefore Vader sucks and all his other feats are rendered irrelevant" was my only argument you guys would have a point on "reverse scaling". Problem is Luke is officially inferior to TPM Kenobi as per the creator of both. Luke could be a grand master and my point would stand. It's simple scaling, not "reverse scaling". Just wank pre-ANH Vader and use him in debates, that's where all his good showings come from.

This isn't true. All what Lucas says that he wanted the PT era Jedi to be "So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I wanted it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what" of the OT era Jedi, all that actually means is that the PT era Jedi are faster paced and more energetic duelists than the OT era Jedi, which is hardly an indication of superiority over Vader beacuse he's not a speed orientated duelist, his lightsaber technique doesn't function like that, and Luke's lightsaber technique in the movies is a mirror image of Vader's, according to Fightaber. But if we actually (mis)intepretate that quote as a confirmation of superiority (which it isn't), then that means nearly all the PT era Jedi, if not all of them, are better than the Vader and Luke, because pretty much of them are fast paced and energetic duelists, plus it would also mean that TPM Kenobi is prime Kenobi, or in Lucas's own words, "Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi," which automatically screws up everything up, because we'd also have to have to swallow the pill that RotS Kenobi is a post-prime Kenobi, and we would have this wonderful scaling: TPM Maul > TPM Qui-Gon > TPM Obi-Wan > RotS Obi-Wan > ANH Obi-Wan. But we know that Lucas doesn't actually consider RotS Obi-Wan to be sub-TPM Kenobi based on that tier system that he and Gillard worked on together (TPM/AotC Kenobi is graded as a 7, RotS Kenobi is graded as an 8), so arguing that Lucas's "Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi," includes TPM Kenobi, is just silly, because TPM Kenobi isn't prime Kenobi.


I could also say that Lucas's statement only applies to the "Films only continuity" as opposed to the "Films + EU continuity" because the former is all about choreagraphy.
yep pretty much also literally all lucas s statements only take part on the films continuity. 
all other eu one is like he said a total different world that my own so not legends applicable statements.
O-Siri
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 4 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 20th 2020, 1:28 pm
@Latham2000 wrote:This isn't true. All what Lucas says that he wanted the PT era Jedi to be "So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I wanted it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what" of the OT era Jedi were, all that actually means is that the PT era Jedi are faster paced and more energetic duelists than the OT era Jedi, which is hardly an indication of superiority over Vader beacuse he's not a speed orientated duelist, his lightsaber technique doesn't function like that,
Speed kills and Vader isn't a non-speed oriented duelist by choice. Speed is what makes an older fighter look old. 19-17 Vader was plenty fast though even if he lacked mobility.


and Luke's lightsaber technique in the movies is a mirror image of Vader's, according to Fightaber.

No he's plenty faster and more mobile than Vader even if the lightsaber sequences are similar. Inexperience is his shortcoming. A weakness Kenobi doesn't share. 


But if we actually (mis)intepretate that quote as a confirmation of superiority (which it isn't), then that means nearly all the PT era Jedi, if not all of them, are better than the Vader and Luke, because pretty much of them are fast paced and energetic duelists

Seems reasonable to me. This doesn't bother me because Purge Vader, his true prime, is clearly superior by feats and Luke would eventually outgrow them anyways.


plus it would also mean that TPM Kenobi is prime Kenobi, or in Lucas's own words, "Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi," which automatically screws up everything up, because we'd also have to have to swallow the pill that RotS Kenobi is a post-prime Kenobi, and we would have this wonderful scaling: TPM Maul > TPM Qui-Gon > TPM Obi-Wan > RotS Obi-Wan > ANH Obi-Wan. But we know that Lucas doesn't actually consider RotS Obi-Wan to be sub-TPM Kenobi based on that tier system that he and Gillard worked on together (TPM/AotC Kenobi is graded as a 7, RotS Kenobi is graded as an 8), so arguing that Lucas's "Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi," includes TPM Kenobi, is just silly, because TPM Kenobi isn't prime Kenobi.

TPM Kenobi is much closer to his peak than ANH Kenobi. Prime is broader and less time specific than Peak. RotS Kenobi is obviously representative of Kenobi's absolute peak, but TPM Kenobi can still be considered a part of Kenobi's prime as a Jedi as he was in his physical prime. We fans are usually pretty stingy when it comes to the semantics of one's exact prime, particularly the line between TCW Kenobi and RotS Kenobi, but all in all TPM-RotS were his best years saying he was in his prime at any point is a reasonable general summarization. If he were to reminisce fondly to Luke "You think that was amazing you should have seen me in my prime" he could be conceivably referring to himself at any point during that time period.
I could also say that Lucas's statement only applies to the "Films only continuity" as opposed to the "Films + EU continuity" because the former is all about choreagraphy.


I would agree with this if OT Vader had any impressive feats on par with Purge Vader, same reason I along with some others am hesitant to up hold to Gillard's ruling on Fisto being a tier 7 rather than an 8 as most of his feats come from the EU without Gillard's ranking system in mind, whereas most of the other characters he ranked get their power scaling from the movies which lays the groundwork for the rest of the EU. Problem is that virtually all of OT Vader's feats in the EU are adaptations of the movies, based on Lucas's narrative. For that reason I consider Lucas the chief authority in regards to Vader in regards to this particular timeline. 
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 4 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 20th 2020, 3:19 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
@O-Siri

Speed kills and Vader isn't a non-speed oriented duelist by choice. Speed is what makes an older fighter look old. 19-17 Vader was plenty fast though even if he lacked mobility.

Speed is not the end all and be all of who comes out on top in a duel because there's other factors such as strength, durability, unpredictability, technical skill, stamina, experience, talent, youth, raw power etc. and Lucas's quote doesn't take that into account. For instance, TPM Obi-Wan has been described as being faster and containing more stamina than TPM Qui-Gon, but Qui-Gon is overall better than TPM Obi-Wan. Vader's cybernetics prevent him from being a speed orientated fighter, but he makes up for that with great strength, unpredictability and durability. Vader as of RotJ was only 45 years old, his old age would hardly be a factor because he's "more machine than man," most of his body is made out of incredibly advanced and powerful cybernetics that were modelled after General Grievous's cybernetics, which aren't anything to scoff at.

No he's plenty faster and more mobile than Vader even if the lightsaber sequences are similar. Inexperience is his shortcoming. A weakness Kenobi doesn't share.

Indeed he is faster and more mobile than Vader, but he makes very little use of his superior speed and mobility in their fight in RotJ, he performs 2 acrobatic backflips on their duel on the Death Star, but it was specifically when he voluntarily chose to stop his earlier assault to plead with Vader, and he performs these acrobatics as a defensive tactic to dodge Vader's assault, but throughout the rest of the duel, he is mirroring Vader's use of Djem So while unleashing an assault on Vader, which didn't involve the use of acrobatics. Luke's fighting style in RotJ Luke, is a mirror image of Vader's, so his fighting style in the movies, isn't speed orientated to begin with. Luke's weakness is inexperience, but he makes up for that with natural Skywalker aptitude - something Kenobi is lacking. I could also say that TPM Kenobi lacks experience because TPM novel says that Kenobi "... brought youth and stamina to the combat, but he had fought in only a few contests and was not battle hardened." so he's also an inexperienced like Luke because his strengths are "youth and stamina" due to only being in "a few contests" and by default was "not battle hardened" i.e. TPM Kenobi was lacking in experience, his strength was his youth and stamina, but his experience was limited due to only being in a few contests. Experience isn't always the deciding factor; Qui-Gon was more experienced than Maul, but Maul overcame him because of superior technical skill (The Ultimate Visual Guide) and was far more physically formidable (The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia), so while Qui-Gon's experience did enable him to hold his own against Maul, it wasn't enough because Maul's advantages outweighted Qui-Gon's superior experience. To put it more simply, experience is not the end all be all. Luke makes up for his inexperience with his natural talent and aptitude, thanks to being a Skywalker, and the Skywalker lineage is unrivalled in the art of talent and aptitude.


Seems reasonable to me. This doesn't bother me because Purge Vader, his true prime, is clearly superior by feats and Luke would eventually outgrow them anyways.

But speed isn't the end all be all, and we'll have to agree to disagree with Vader's prime.

TPM Kenobi is much closer to his peak than ANH Kenobi. Prime is broader and less time specific than Peak. RotS Kenobi is obviously representative of Kenobi's absolute peak, but TPM Kenobi can still be considered a part of Kenobi's prime as a Jedi as he was in his physical prime. We fans are usually pretty stingy when it comes to the semantics of one's exact prime, particularly the line between TCW Kenobi and RotS Kenobi, but all in all TPM-RotS were his best years saying he was in his prime at any point is a reasonable general summarization. If he were to reminisce fondly to Luke "You think that was amazing you should have seen me in my prime" he could be conceivably referring to himself at any point during that time period.

I suppose you could argue that Kenobi's physical prime was during TPM-RotS era, because he's 25-38 by that time period, but we're talking about Obi-Wan's overall combative prime, not his physical prime because the context of the Lucas quote itself is talking about lightsaber combat, not physical ability, so you can't use that Lucas quote to propogate the notion that ANH Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi because TPM Kenobi is not "a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi," and the context for this is that he is talking about a PT Jedi at their prime as lightsaber duelists. While ANH Kenobi severely lacks the physical advantages that TPM Kenobi has i.e. brute strength, speed, agility, stamina etc. what can't be denied is that TPM Kenobi is severely lacking in terms of Force power when compared to ANH Kenobi, because we have this LFL source offering this view:

"Darth Vader ignored the blasterfight and looked down at the old brown cloak and lightsaber that lay on the floor. Incredibly, Obi-Wan had completely disappeared.

Where is he? How could he vanish? What sort of trickery is this? He had assumed Obi-Wan's study of the Force had ended long ago, and that his powers had diminished over time. But Vader was wrong." -- A New Hope Junior Novel.

This quote says that Vader initially assumed that Obi-Wan's powers had diminished over time due to discontinued Force studies, but was eventually proven wrong. Keep in mind that the blue text are Vader's thoughts, whereas the red text is the OOU writer's narration, I made this distinction because in the actual printed book itself, Vader's internal thoughts are highlighted as italics, whereas the rest of the text is straight. This is explicitly stated that ANH Obi-Wan isn't less powerful than RotS Obi-Wan, what he has actually degraded was his lightsaber skill and physical ability. Another LFL source has offered the same view:

"Despite his years of seclusion on Tatooine, neither his courage nor his Jedi powers have diminished." -- Unknown Trading Card publication.
ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 4 6063365-4758543850-POTJb

^ This is self explanatory. So we have two sources saying Ben Kenobi's Force powers didn't diminish at all, which leaves open 2 options: His powers remained exactly the same, or they increased, I think they increased because we have this:

Finally, a few Jedi choose to fade away into the backdrop of the galaxy, biding their time until they can act. They do not abandon their lives as Jedi, but they do not actively seek to draw the Empire's attention. Both Yoda and Kenobi choose this life, as does the Togruta Jedi Shaak Ti. By retreating into the shadows. these individuals ensure that the Empire's Jedi hunters do not find them allowing them to prepare for a time in the future when they will once again step onto the galactic stage. These Jedi spend their days honing their skills in the Force. meditating and practicing their lightsaber techniques. They believe that their destiny has not been fulfilled, and that only the guidance of the Force, not their own desire to strike back at the Empire, is the true path to success." -- The Force Unleashed Campaign Guide.

Granted, this source does say practiced his lightsaber technique, which is odds with a few other sources saying he was out of practice by ANH, but that's the only actual contradiction. Being out of practise with a lightsaber won't preclude Ben from meditating and honing his skills with the Force, which is what the quote says. The concept that Ben Kenobi's Force skills are greater than his younger self's also makes sense because during his entire exile on Tatooine revolved around increasing his connection with the Living Force and guarding Luke. Heck, if we want to be really technical, I can argue that there's no contradiction between this quote and the other quotes saying Ben was out of practise because this quote is covering TFU timeline, which takes place few years before ANH, whereas it's ANH era sources that say Ben was out of practise, so Ben was only out of practise for a few years, rather than 17 years (his fight with Hett).

I would agree with this if OT Vader had any impressive feats on par with Purge Vader, same reason I along with some others am hesitant to up hold to Gillard's ruling on Fisto being a tier 7 rather than an 8 as most of his feats come from the EU without Gillard's ranking system in mind, whereas most of the other characters he ranked get their power scaling from the movies which lays the groundwork for the rest of the EU. Problem is that virtually all of OT Vader's feats in the EU are adaptations of the movies, based on Lucas's narrative. For that reason I consider Lucas the chief authority in regards to Vader in regards to this particular timeline.

The reason why you're making this mistake is because OT Vader barely had any competition, the reason why he barely had competition is because of the lack of Jedi, but that's because they were already virtually driven to by extinction by Vader and his Empire. You consider Purge Vader to be more impressive, but that's because during that time period, there were still lots of Jedi about, so Vader had the opportunity to showcase his powers and fight them, but didn't during the OT era, where he fought Luke, who you don't find that impressive in comparison to the PT era Jedi, and he also fought Ben Kenobi, who you also don't consider that impressive in comparison to the PT era Jedi. You are incorrectly conflating Vader's lack of opportunity during the OT era with the view that he's past his prime. The only thing that Lucas is really clear on with OT era Vader is that he's less powerful than RotS Anakin, which he's said many times, and that he's not on par with the PT era Jedi, but he never specifies which PT era Jedi, so let's not insert TPM Kenobi and TPM Jinn in his statements.
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 4 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 22nd 2020, 12:43 am
@Latham2000 wrote:Speed is not the end all and be all of who comes out on top in a duel because there's other factors such as strength, durability, unpredictability, technical skill, stamina, experience, talent, youth, raw power etc. and Lucas's quote doesn't take that into account. For instance, TPM Obi-Wan has been described as being faster and containing more stamina than TPM Qui-Gon, but Qui-Gon is overall better than TPM Obi-Wan. Vader's cybernetics prevent him from being a speed orientated fighter, but he makes up for that with great strength, unpredictability and durability. Vader as of RotJ was only 45 years old, his old age would hardly be a factor because he's "more machine than man," most of his body is made out of incredibly advanced and powerful cybernetics that were modelled after General Grievous's cybernetics, which aren't anything to scoff at. 

Anticipation can negate speed, Jinn for example can see moves coming in advance by reading Maul's body language, but even Jinn is considered more prime and energetic than Ben and Vader. Experience is less of an advantage when you are out of your prime, especially when the brain can't get the signal to rest of the body in time. Strength is only useful if the speed is comparable. Attacks are more predictable if you are slower. Technical skill is linked to speed. Stamina ties in to energetic. 


Indeed he is faster and more mobile than Vader, but he makes very little use of his superior speed and mobility in their fight in RotJ, he performs 2 acrobatic backflips on their duel on the Death Star, but it was specifically when he voluntarily chose to stop his earlier assault to plead with Vader, and he performs these acrobatics as a defensive tactic to dodge Vader's assault, but throughout the rest of the duel, he is mirroring Vader's use of Djem So while unleashing an assault on Vader, which didn't involve the use of acrobatics. Luke's fighting style in RotJ Luke, is a mirror image of Vader's, so his fighting style in the movies, isn't speed orientated to begin with.
You might have a point here. I just remembered Lucas actually wanted to emphasis lightsabers in OT were heavy like broadswords, rather than lightweight rapier's. So it makes sense Luke is similar in speed. 


I could also say that TPM Kenobi lacks experience because TPM novel says that Kenobi "... brought [i]youth and stamina to the combat, but he had fought in only a few contests and was not battle hardened.[/i]" so he's also an inexperienced like Luke because his strengths are "youth and stamina" due to only being in "a few contests" and by default was "not battle hardened" i.e. TPM Kenobi was lacking in experience, his strength was his youth and stamina, but his experience was limited due to only being in a few contests.

I would argue that passage pertaining to Kenobi's lack of battle hardening, written in 1999, has been thoroughly retconned. Prior to TPM, Kenobi's been in lightsaber duels to the death with Xanatos and Buck Chun and he's sparred Jinn and plenty others too before he was even an apprentice. He's been involved in two pan-galactic conflicts, the Stark Hyperspace War and The Yinchorri uprising, plus that skirmish with the Nebula front. He's been tested plenty in his formative years and weathered a lot of shit.


Luke is battle-hardened by ESB too of course, but he lacks even sparring experience and only has theoretical application to go off of. Big difference.
Experience isn't always the deciding factor; Qui-Gon was more experienced than Maul, but Maul overcame him because of superior technical skill 

Kenobi is in all likelihood more skilled than Luke. 


(The Ultimate Visual Guide) and was far more physically formidable (

So is too Kenobi over Luke since the "faster more energetic" version we've never seen extends to Luke's physicals too.


The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia), so while Qui-Gon's experience did enable him to hold his own against Maul, it wasn't enough because Maul's advantages outweighted Qui-Gon's superior experience. To put it more simply, experience is not the end all be all. Luke makes up for his inexperience with his natural talent and aptitude, thanks to being a Skywalker, and the Skywalker lineage is unrivalled in the art of talent and aptitude.
Kenobi is not only more experienced, but also stronger mentally and emotionally, faster, and in all likelihood more developed skilled too. He's a complete fighter at this point, by comparison Luke is still raw at that point. 


 I suppose you could argue that Kenobi's [size=14][b]physical [/b]prime was during TPM-RotS era, because he's 25-38 by that time period, but we're talking about Obi-Wan's [b]overall combative prime, [/b]not his physical prime because the context of the Lucas quote itself is talking about lightsaber combat, not physical ability, so you can't use that Lucas quote to propogate the notion that ANH Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi because TPM Kenobi is not [/size]"a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi,"
More accurately TPM Kenobi isn't at his peak, fighting in the prime of the Jedi. Peak years isn't synonymous with prime. Mace's absolute peak was the height of his duel with Sidious, but it's still accurate to say he was in his prime as a fighter well before that debatably as far back as pre-TPM. 

We VS debaters and I'm not just referring to Star Wars debates, often conflate and use prime interchangeably with peak, but in reality prime in the context Lucas is using it is broader than that. TPM-RotS is his fighting prime in a general sense even though he had peaks and valleys in-between those years. 



. While ANH Kenobi severely lacks the physical advantages that TPM Kenobi has i.e. brute strength, speed, agility, stamina etc
The shit that actually matters in a fight.


what can't be denied is that TPM Kenobi is severely lacking in terms of Force power when compared to ANH Kenobi, because we have this LFL source offering this view:

Force power is irrelvent if you can't channel it to your physicals. And that's spiritual Force connection, not raw power which was virtually absent throughout the entirety of the fight, hence Vader's observation "your power is weak old man".  ESB Yoda is more spiritually connected but less powerful than RotS Yoda.

The ability to channel the Force is related to mental strength but anything mentally intensive is irrevocably tied to physical health and conditioning too. 
The reason why you're making this mistake is because OT Vader barely had any competition, the reason why he barely had competition is because of the lack of Jedi, but that's because they were already virtually driven to by extinction by Vader and his Empire.

That is part of the reasoning but it doesn't address the problem.
You consider Purge Vader to be more impressive, but that's because during that time period, there were still lots of Jedi about, so Vader had the [b]opportunity to showcase[/b] his powers and fight them, but didn't during the OT era, where he fought Luke, who you don't find that impressive in comparison to the PT era Jedi, and he also fought Ben Kenobi, who you also don't consider that impressive in comparison to the PT era Jedi.

Again back to the whole "reverse scaling argument", it's simple scaling. The creator tells us OT crew comprises of old men and fledgling boys, I believe it, because frankly that's what I see. It's not a hard pill to swallow, it's not like it negates all Vader's feats and makes him **** compared to PT characters, rather it confines his prime to a period pre-ANH which is where he gets all his juice fight material from anyways, so hardly a train stopper. 
 The only thing that Lucas is really clear on with OT era Vader is that he's less powerful than RotS Anakin, which he's said many times, and that he's not on par with the PT era Jedi, but he never specifies which PT era Jedi, so let's not insert TPM Kenobi and TPM Jinn in his statements. 

The featurette can only apply to Jinn and TPM Kenobi. "To SEE a Jedi in his prime" meaning we are going to see IN THIS MOVIE a faster more energetic version of what we had seen previously, representative of a Jedi in his prime rather than formative boys and old men past their prime they learned from.
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 4 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 22nd 2020, 2:00 am
I think all the speed, strength, age stuff in the TPM material is taken a bit too literally.

For one, age is essentially irrelevant, so I take that as just being an outdated explanation for Jinn's inferiority to Maul.

With the speed difference, I don't take it as meaning Kenobi is literally faster than Jinn in augmentation, but rather that Kenobi is an aggressive fighter and leverages his speed more than Jinn does, who prefers to leverage his strength, skill and experience a bit more.

We're also told that Maul is "faster and stronger" than Jinn, but that doesn't explain why Jinn can contend by himself for a minute or more, when most duels typically go for less than a minute, which would surely be the case if one person was stronger and faster.

It may have been the case literally speaking when the material came out, but as O-Siri pointed out, a lot of it is outdated or misinterpreted when taken into the context of the EU, for example Kenobi having almost no lightsaber combat experience/battle experience; or the fact that augmentation and its mechanics hadn't' been fleshed out yet.

Any thoughts?
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 4 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 22nd 2020, 9:31 am
ScionOfSkywalker77 wrote:@SithSauce:

Learn to be concise. You really could have condensed that wall of text into something a lot shorter. Given the amount of time you spent addressing points I never made or repeating yourself this won't be a line by line rebuttal, but rather a refutation of the key arguments that matter. Anyhow:

My bad, while the quote does imply that the Phrophets orginally thought the fight would be one-sided in Maul's favor, that doesn't prelude the idea of Vader and Maul being equal in their confrontation.

It doesn't preclude the idea, but the quote itself is still not evidence for that position as explained prior. Your only shot at proving equality is debating the fight itself, which favours Maul, not Vader.

And this is surported by the comic itself, as the fight goes on for a number of pages before Maul has the upperhand after Vader splits his saber staff in half.

The number of pages is irrelevant when contrasted with the details of those same pages, which show Maul being a dominant force that lands physical strikes left and right while Vader accomplishes nothing.

And then we even have Maul straight up admitting that Vader was holding his own well against him shown in the below panel.

The same can be said of Kenobi.

Also try not to accuse someone of wanking a character especially when they don't really wank said character that much at all.

Just telling it how it is.

It makes sense for the writers of the comic to portray the duel as very heated and intense, considering these are two prominent and well respected characters.

Sure, but that doesn't mean they were equal.

Finally, if you want to go one step further, a major theme of the comic is that Vader has too much lightside in him that would prevent him from winning against Maul. The Phrophets sensed this as well as Maul himself. With this notion, could you not argue that perhaps Vader's light-side hinderance prevented him from performing at a higher level against Maul?

This wouldn't be exclusive to the Maul fight. Moreover, the entire point is that ultimately the prophets were wrong.

The Dark Side Phrophets were clearly surprised over Vader's victory.

Because they underestimated the depths of Vader's self hatred. That doesn't prove he's the greater combatant.

If this was a mere cheapshot like some people claim then would the comic not make note of that? The whole point of the comic was to show how powerful Vader is over Maul due to his superior hate.

The comic doesn't exist to prove who's more the more powerful combatant, but which of them actually wins in a brawl (The result of a fight isn't solely predicated on force power). The answer is Vader, because while Maul may be more powerful, his hatred doesn't run as deep nor is he as determined. What Vader ultimately demonstrates is his worth to Sheev and his devotion to the darkness. Neither of which means he's more powerful.

Vader was the one who came out alive after that stab, not Maul.

Due to differences in area of penetration + Vader's armour.

Kenobi's rage boost

Which demonstrably isn't that large.

To conclude:

>Vader is generally dominated throughout the fight and can just about hold on.
>TPM Kenobi is not dominated, actually more or less matching Maul while lasting just as long as Vader (Bare minimum).
>Vader's best accomplishment in the fight was replicated by TPM Kenobi.
>Vader stabbing himself is not a display of power in any capacity.

That'll be all... for now.

None of which means anything, as the fight is non-canon
Latham2000
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 4 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 23rd 2020, 7:38 am
@O-Siri

Anticipation can negate speed, Jinn for example can see moves coming in advance by reading Maul's body language, but even Jinn is considered more prime and energetic than Ben and Vader. Experience is less of an advantage when you are out of your prime, especially when the brain can't get the signal to rest of the body in time. Strength is only useful if the speed is comparable. Attacks are more predictable if you are slower. Technical skill is linked to speed. Stamina ties in to energetic.

Being faster and more energetic doesn't automatically mean you're more skilled, a warrior's attributes are linked to each other but they are not one and the same, speed and technical skill isn't one and the same. TPM Obi-Wan can be be a faster and more energetic duelist than Vader and still be less skilled than Vader, so they're not mutually exclusive positions, there's already a perfect in-universe explanation for why TPM Obi-Wan is a faster and more energetic duelist than the OT fighters; his fighting style makes heavy use of Ataru, a form which has been described as "A physically demanding style, this fighting form includes acrobatic jumps, flips and weaves" and "heavily emphasizing Jedi abilities to run, jump, and spin in phenomenal ways by using the Force." which is basically what Obi-Wan's fighting style revolves around, the same would apply to Qui-Gon, who although isn't visibly as acrobatic as Kenobi, does make us of the same form, he utilized acrobatics on Tatooine off screen in TPM script, and Fightsaber says that they made excellent use of Ataru acrobatics against Maul, so it is clearly his primary form, but he has personalised the form to accomodate for his 60 year old body. Vader's movements however are limited by his cybernetics, so it's not feasible for him to him to mimick the acrobatic and flashy style of fighting that the typical Prequel era fighter relies on, so he's primarily a strength orientated Djem So duelist who only uses elements of Ataru, Soresu and Makashi in his "refined version" of Djem So, and suited Vader's fighting style has fundamentally been the same for most of his career. So the fact that Vader isn't the acrobatic and flashy fighter that TPM Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon are, doesn't suddenly lock him beneath these guys.

You might have a point here. I just remembered Lucas actually wanted to emphasis lightsabers in OT were heavy like broadswords, rather than lightweight rapier's. So it makes sense Luke is similar in speed.

Cool. Vader and Luke are brawlers, the typical PT era Jedi are lightweight raptors. The latter isn't always better than the former, because everyone's fighting style is personalised.


I would argue that passage pertaining to Kenobi's lack of battle hardening, written in 1999, has been thoroughly retconned. Prior to TPM, Kenobi's been in lightsaber duels to the death with Xanatos and Buck Chun and he's sparred Jinn and plenty others too before he was even an apprentice. He's been involved in two pan-galactic conflicts, the Stark Hyperspace War and The Yinchorri uprising, plus that skirmish with the Nebula front. He's been tested plenty in his formative years and weathered a lot of shit.

Luke is battle-hardened by ESB too of course, but he lacks even sparring experience and only has theoretical application to go off of. Big difference.

I wouldn't say it's necessarily a retconn because the narrator isn't going to think like you and me, and have the same criteria for what qualifies as an experienced warrior in the printed novel itself. The premise of the quote itself is saying that experience is not TPM Obi-Wan's strength, but rather, his youth and stamina. Heck the passage itself is actually a comparison of Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon's strengths as fighters, so Obi-Wan might not be battle hardened when compared to Qui-Gon. ESB Luke explicitly lacks experience, but his Skywalker aptitude makes up for it, Obi-Wan isn't a Skywalker, he doesn't enjoy the same aptitude that Luke has, so it's not like we no choice but to lock ESB Luke beneath TPM Obi-Wan. Heck, the quotes saying that Luke lacks experience are talking about his duels with Vader, who has had decades of experience, Luke is most certainly an experienced warrior, he went through 3 years of life and death situations in the OT era, between ANH and ESB.


Kenobi is in all likelihood more skilled than Luke.

We'll have to agree to disagree on that, and what has Kenobi and Luke got to do with Maul vs Qui-Gon? I was using that as example to show that experience isn't end all be all.


So is too Kenobi over Luke since the "faster more energetic" version we've never seen extends to Luke's physicals too.

I think what you're trying to propose is that the Lucas quote "faster more energetic version" also indicates that TPM Obi-Wan and TPM Qui-Gon are in much better shape than Luke, but I strongly disagree with that because Luke's fighting style doesn't function like Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon's, Luke's fighting style in the movies, is mostly a mirror image of Vader, he doesn't put much emphasis on speed and agility, not because he lacks the speed and agility that Qui-Gon and TPM Obi-Wan, but because he seeked a different technique i.e. Vader's technique, which is hardly reliant on speed and agility. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon however are the typical prequel era fighters who's preferred tactics are about running, jumping and spinning which is what Ataru puts emphasis on. I don't know why you randomly brought up the Lucas quote in this, because it's not actually relevant to Maul's superiority over Qui-Gon and what factors enabled him to beat Qui-Gon. Maul is far more physically formidable than Qui-Gon because he's Zabrack who has pushed his body to the extreme through brutal and vigoruous Sith training under Sidious, and has a natural ability to withstand great pain and suffering. He's also 22 years old, so he's in his physical prime. As great shape Qui-Gon is in, he is still a 60 year old man who goes through the same problems humans go through that age i.e. stamina, strength, mobility and joints that have diminished. I don't see how Maul's physical superiority over Qui-Gon would extend to TPM Obi-Wan as that seems what you are suggesting because TPM Maul is even younger than TPM Obi-Wan by 3 years, he's also gone through far more brutal and harsh training under a far superior teacher than Obi-Wan has, and he has unique Zabrack physiology that Qui-Gon lacks, and TPM Obi-Wan also lacks.

Kenobi is not only more experienced, but also stronger mentally and emotionally, faster, and in all likelihood more developed skilled too. He's a complete fighter at this point, by comparison Luke is still raw at that point.

TPM Obi-Wan might be more mentally and emotionally resilient than ESB Luke, and perhaps more developed skills, but he's nowhere near as talented because what you're forgetting is that while Luke is described as lacking in experience, he has been praised for his talent, why so? Because he's a Skywalker, who is the son of the Chosen One. Obi-Wan is not a Skywalker, his talent isn't comparable to someone of Anakin/Luke's lineage. Luke's strength is his talent/aptitude, something that only Anakin exceeds him in.

More accurately TPM Kenobi isn't at his peak, fighting in the prime of the Jedi. Peak years isn't synonymous with prime. Mace's absolute peak was the height of his duel with Sidious, but it's still accurate to say he was in his prime as a fighter well before that debatably as far back as pre-TPM. 

We VS debaters and I'm not just referring to Star Wars debates, often conflate and use prime interchangeably with peak, but in reality prime in the context Lucas is using it is broader than that. TPM-RotS is his fighting prime in a general sense even though he had peaks and valleys in-between those years.

All right fair enough. You've proposed a reasonable intepretation. In the context of Lucas's quote, now I think he is referring to "prime" as in the apex of a Jedi's access to conventional training, they were trained from the youngest aged, as opposed to the example of Luke starting at the age of 19 in the PT, and the PT Jedi were also trained whilst having access to Jedi archives and being trained by lifelong masters, as opposed to Luke having to fend for himself and being trained by a retired Obi-Wan and retired Yoda, and then he has to suddenly fight Vader, who personifies evil in the galaxy, to save the galaxy. Contrast this with the new PT, where where the Jedi are in their "prime" as far as Lucas is concerned, because they're an actual organisation back them. The fighting is "faster and more energetic" th because these guys have been keeping active and have more conventional training. Luke in contrast, has modelled his fighting style to Vader's for the most part in the movies, and Vader doesn't fight like the typical Prequel era fighter. 

The shit that actually matters in a fight.

Never said otherwise.

Force power is irrelvent if you can't channel it to your physicals. And that's spiritual Force connection, not raw power which was virtually absent throughout the entirety of the fight, hence Vader's observation "your power is weak old man".  ESB Yoda is more spiritually connected but less powerful than RotS Yoda.

The ability to channel the Force is related to mental strength but anything mentally intensive is irrevocably tied to physical health and conditioning too.

You're exaggerating Ben Kenobi's physical degradation, Ben Kenobi was absolutely able to channel his Force power through his physicals though, hence why ANH junior novel says "Executing a move of incredible swiftness for one so old, Kenobi lunged at the massive shape" and Death Star says "Should his attention falter, Obi-Wan could kill him in the blink of an eye." --> despite aging really badly for a 57 year old, Ben still had the sufficient Force reserves to move at an incredibly fast pace for a human of his age, so he's not as bad as you're making him out to look.

Vader saying that Ben's powers are weak is just a manifestation of his superiority complex, during the most part of their duel on the Death Star, Vader was on the verge of having a PTSD episode from Ben's mere presence because of what happened the last time they met i.e. getting maimed on Mustafar. So Vader saying "Your powers are weak, old man" is just a meaningless taunt in the form of Dun Moch to cover up his trauma and insecurities. He can trash talk Ben all he wants and the out of universe sources about Ben's powers not diminishing would still be correct, because Vader was trying to cover up his PTSD episodes from spilling out on the surface.

That is part of the reasoning but it doesn't address the problem.
Again back to the whole "reverse scaling argument", it's simple scaling. The creator tells us OT crew comprises of old men and fledgling boys, I believe it, because frankly that's what I see. It's not a hard pill to swallow, it's not like it negates all Vader's feats and makes him **** compared to PT characters, rather it confines his prime to a period pre-ANH which is where he gets all his juice fight material from anyways, so hardly a train stopper.
The featurette can only apply to Jinn and TPM Kenobi. "To SEE a Jedi in his prime" meaning we are going to see IN THIS MOVIE a faster more energetic version of what we had seen previously, representative of a Jedi in his prime rather than formative boys and old men past their prime they learned from.

We've already been through this issue. Qui-Gon and TPM Obi-Wan can be as flashy and acrobatic as they want, they can be faster and more energetic duelists than Vader and it's easily attributable to how their fighting styles function and differ from how Vader and Luke's fighting style functions in the movies, rather than the former simply being better duelists the latter. You do not need to be more skilled than someone else in order to be a faster and more energetic fighter than them, and you do not need to be a faster and more energetic fighter than someone else to be more skilled than them.


Last edited by Latham2000 on April 24th 2020, 5:23 pm; edited 3 times in total
Sjuttiosju
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 4 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on April 23rd 2020, 8:45 am
@LOTL: Irrelevant, as established here. Read the full debate starting at the linked post for reasons as to why the fight is legitimate regardless of its Canon status.
O-Siri
O-Siri

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on May 6th 2020, 3:32 pm
@Latham2000 

I’m on mobile until further notice  so I’m going to address this in points as opposed to quotes.

1. The OT fighters aren’t just slower and less energetic, they also aren’t real Jedi or in their primes. It’s an implicit statement of inferiority realative to the PT fighters.

2.  It most certainly is a retcon  the narrator says Kenobi has been a few concepts and isn’t battle hardened which isn’t true just going by the Jedi apprentice series alone. He Isn’t as seasoned as his master but he is a lot more experienced and seasoned in comparison of Luke so it’s still a big advantage

3. Luke even as of RotJ isn’t a real Jedi how on earth can he be more skilled than Kenobi who is the real deal?

4. Maul’s other advantages negated Jinn’s experience yes. He better trained in younger by several decades more skilled and more gifted. As I’ve said experience is less of an advantage when counterbalance by aging which makes it tougher for an older fighter to pull the trigger when he sees openings.

Luke has no advantages over Kenobi other than appritude, which by itself wasn’t enough to make him a real Jedi. 

5. Yes Luke is a mirror image of Vader.Kind of goes hand-in-hand with Lucas is “of these young boys learning from these old folks. Hence Luke not being a real Jedi. And yes this Indicates  superiority because Kenobi and Jinn can do things physically that Luke can’t because he lacks the training and experience.

6. He is Swift for an old man obviously. He can still do things no regular human can. That doesn’t however excuse him of  Lucas’s statement of him not being a real Jedi and being well past his prime in comparison to his 25-year-old counterpart. 

He’s still a threat to Vader yeah because Vader is also an older past prime fighter as of ANH by the same quote.
SithSauce
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on May 6th 2020, 3:59 pm
If the comic is non canon, then it's non canon. It's like saying Galen Marek can defeat Sidious based on the non canon darkside ending of TFU.
The comic simply serves as an alternative take on Star Wars where Vader faces a Clone version of Maul. It has no relevance in the Legends continuity.
Vader's Legacy
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on May 6th 2020, 4:12 pm
@SithSauce wrote:If the comic is non canon, then it's non canon. It's like saying Galen Marek can defeat Sidious based on the non canon darkside ending of TFU.
The comic simply serves as an alternative take on Star Wars where Vader faces a Clone version of Maul. It has no relevance in the Legends continuity.

In the darkside ending Sheev clowns Galen...
Latham2000
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 4 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on May 7th 2020, 8:12 am
@O-Siri wrote:@Latham2000 

I’m on mobile until further notice  so I’m going to address this in points as opposed to quotes.

1. The OT fighters aren’t just slower and less energetic, they also aren’t real Jedi or in their primes. It’s an implicit statement of inferiority realative to the PT fighters.

Not really, because the reason why George said that they aren't real Jedi is because they don't fight like the fast paced, energetic duelists that the PT era Jedi. In fact I can easily argue that the reason why Lucas considers Qui-Gon Jinn and TPM Kenobi "real Jedi" in the sense that they are traditional Jedi because how they fight is common in the Prequel era of the Jedi i.e. flashy and acrobatic. Morever, if Lucas's remarks about "real Jedi" meant that Vader was sub-TPM Kenobi, who is sub-TPM Jinn, who in turn is sub-TPM Maul, then that creates a pretty gap between Vader and Maul, and it wouldn't really a debate because Lucas has already settled it with his remarks in TPM featurette, but LFL doesn't have that line of thought, given that they went out of their way to put in the time and effort to license and publish Resurrection, an N canon comic, showing us a fight between ANH Vader and a resurrected TPM Maul (Star Wars Galaxy Issue 17, published in 2012, says that Maul was resurrected whilst republishing the comic, so no it wasn't an illusion/vision) endorsed and promoted by C canon LFL sources e.g. StarWars.com (and don't even think about trying to accuse me of appealing to authorial intent), as a reliable depiction of TPM Maul vs ANH Vader to the people who wanted to know how Vader and Maul compare. Granted, Maul won the swordplay aspect of that fight, but LFL could've just told us that "Lucas says Vader is sub-TPM Maul in TPM featurette because Vader isn't a real Jedi etc." but they didn't, evidently because Lucas's remarks don't actually indicate that. Moroever, Dave Filoni, who spent at least 4 years working with Lucas during the creative process and behind the scenes of TCW, to the extent that he was deemed "almost like a son" to Lucas, has stated that TCW Maul (who is equal/superior to TPM Maul) is "kind of in the Vader realm" in 2012, indicating Maul is sub-Vader (which Filoni attributes to Maul's Sith training under Sidious). Do you really think that Lucas at any point, wouldn't have said something that would've screamed Vader isn't shit when compared to PT era fighters, at any point whilst he was working with Filoni? Even after Lucas left Lucasfilm, Filoni has made it clear that he consciously follows Lucas's line of thought whenever he speaks in an interview about TCW. Granted, Filoni and Lucas are not the same person, I doubt that Filoni and Lucas's vision are so fundamentally different that one considers Vader to be sub-TPM Kenobi/Jinn/Maul, whereas the other thinks the opposite.

2.It most certainly is a retcon the narrator says Kenobi has been a few concepts and isn’t battle hardened which isn’t true just going by the Jedi apprentice series alone. He Isn’t as seasoned as his master but he is a lot more experienced and seasoned in comparison of Luke so it’s still a big advantage

How many contests had he actually been in that series?

3. Luke even as of RotJ isn’t a real Jedi how on earth can he be more skilled than Kenobi who is the real deal?

This is assuming that a "real Jedi" means superior fighter, by that logic every Jedi in the prequels is better than Ben/Vader/Luke.

4. Maul’s other advantages negated Jinn’s experience yes. He better trained in younger by several decades more skilled and more gifted. As I’ve said experience is less of an advantage when counterbalance by aging which makes it tougher for an older fighter to pull the trigger when he sees openings.

True, but my point was that experience, like speed, isn't end all be all.

Luke has no advantages over Kenobi other than appritude, which by itself wasn’t enough to make him a real Jedi.

Define a real Jedi then. I can still feasibly argue that "real Jedi" means traditional Jedi.

5. Yes Luke is a mirror image of Vader.Kind of goes hand-in-hand with Lucas is “of these young boys learning from these old folks. Hence Luke not being a real Jedi. And yes this Indicates  superiority because Kenobi and Jinn can do things physically that Luke can’t because he lacks the training and experience.

Vader and Luke aren't real Jedi because he isn't a flashy acrobatic duelist like all the PT era Jedi, who run around around and perform mid-air acrobatics - got it. That totally didn't prevent Vader being so good that his own fighting style has been stated to deliver "wild, slashing attacks that would have overwhelmed even an extraordinary Jedi Knight" as of TFU, which by the way only takes place one year before ANH. Training is also incredibly overrated:

"Better than training, the Force is. More than experience or speed it gives."

And he had given a demonstration. Three members of the council-Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba, excellent fighters all-had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured.

Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him. The lesson had struck powerfully home: Knowledge of the Force was infinitely better than technique." -- Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter.

Right here, Yoda gives Darsha Assant an important lesson; that the Force is better than training, providing more than what experience and speed provides, as demonstrated by an explicitly unarmed Yoda himself in a sparring match with Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin and Depa Billaba, and what happened in that sparring match? None of single one of them even managed to lay a figer on him, despite having the numbers advantage, against an unarmed Yoda. The demonstration of that lesson also "struck powerfully home" to Darsha that "Knowledge of the Force was infinitely better than technique

6. He is Swift for an old man obviously. He can still do things no regular human can. That doesn’t however excuse him of  Lucas’s statement of him not being a real Jedi and being well past his prime in comparison to his 25-year-old counterpart.

He’s still a threat to Vader yeah because Vader is also an older past prime fighter as of ANH by the same quote.

Ben is well past his physical prime, physicals is where Ben really suffered at the end of the day, so I can see why TPM Kenobi is in better shape than Ben Kenobi, but in terms of technical skill he hadn't degraded that much, as Death Star states that he had some of his former skill by the OOU narrator and Vader himself, and the last time Vader met Ben was on Mustafar. RotS Obi-Wan is far more skilled than TPM Obi-Wan, so the comparison is flawed. Ben still has leagues upon leagues ahead of TPM Kenobi in Force reserves/connection, and is above his RotS self in that facet, which explains why he's a threat to Vader. ANH Vader being out of prime goes without saying, because his actual prime is in ESB/RotJ.
Latham2000
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on May 7th 2020, 8:13 am
@SithSauce wrote:If the comic is non canon, then it's non canon. It's like saying Galen Marek can defeat Sidious based on the non canon darkside ending of TFU.
The comic simply serves as an alternative take on Star Wars where Vader faces a Clone version of Maul. It has no relevance in the Legends continuity.

The fact that it's non canon isn't mutually exclusive with the C canon LFL sources (i.e. StarWars.com) endorsing and promoting it as a reliable depiction. Sidious beat Galen in the Dark Side ending of TFU.
Sjuttiosju
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on May 7th 2020, 8:30 am
@SithSauce:

If the comic is non canon, then it's non canon.

It being non-canon doesn't change the fact that it's a reliable depiction of events.

It's like saying Galen Marek can defeat Sidious based on the non canon darkside ending of TFU.

This never happened.

The comic simply serves as an alternative take on Star Wars where Vader faces a Clone version of Maul. It has no relevance in the Legends continuity.

An alternative take inferred by C-Canon sources as having an accurate answer to the question it poses.

Moreover, I'm going to presume you switching the goalpost to whining about the comic's authenticity as opposed to its events is a concession that my perception of its contents is more reasonable than your own.
MyGod000
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 4 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on May 9th 2020, 6:53 am
To the people Saying Kenobi...need to realize that He gave up that fight...and it doesn't make sense for him to just Give up if he was much more powerful than Vader.

It's clear That Vader wins this fight every time handily
MyGod000
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on May 9th 2020, 7:00 am
@HeartoftheForce wrote:
@Underachiever599 wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:Honestly Kenobi. Don't even need Lucas for this one.
What's your argument? Vader has objectively better combat feats while vastly pre-prime, starting barely a month after he got off the table.
Despite all those he still lost handily to TPM Maul. The same Maul that TPM Kenobi was able to to match for longer than Qui-Gon Jinn despite being hindered by rage and Maul feeding on said rage to become more powerful. Not mention being at an environmental and nexus disadvantage also. Nevertheless Kenobi was able to destroy Maul's weapon and in auxiliary material match his TK. I can see him doing the same to Vader, overwhelming him with speed and then taking him down.


Just to give some insight. TPM Obi-wan was using Dark Emotions to compete With TPM Maul,  after seeing his master get killed right in front of his eyes. 

Just like Luke when he saw His master get killed he went into a Rage and started shooting everything in sight, until Obi-wan Force Ghost told him to run.

Finally Maul in the TPM  still Bested Rage Amp Obi-wan even afterwords... Obi-wan only won because Maul was Arrogant when he had both the High ground Obi-wan Dead to right. 

Nothing you said in that passage really justifies  Obi-wan doing anything Against  Vader here.   TPM Obi-wan is stated to be  a tier 7 if you are using legends, which I assume you are since Maul only Fought  Vader in Legends. So, under that Rule you have to yield to the fact that Obi-wan in ANH is weaker than ROTS Obi-wan who was stated to be a tier 8.
freethedevil
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on May 9th 2020, 7:23 am
@HeartoftheForce wrote:
@Underachiever599 wrote:
@HeartoftheForce wrote:Honestly Kenobi. Don't even need Lucas for this one.
What's your argument? Vader has objectively better combat feats while vastly pre-prime, starting barely a month after he got off the table.
Despite all those he still lost handily to TPM Maul. 
First off, he didn't "lost handily", he lost a hotly contested duel.

Secondly, the only reason the duel even happened is because the priestesses dared him to not use the force. Said priestesses said, "you could destroy us all with the force." That includes Maul.


Even if you take the fight as real, it would only be a representation of what a sabers only encounter would look like. Vader, both by feats, and by the priestesses admission should be able to snap maul's neck before their lightsaber skills even come into the picture.
Latham2000
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on May 9th 2020, 7:27 am
The fight was real, Star Wars Galaxy magazine (published in 2012), republished the Resurrection story in two parts, and stated that Maul was resurrected.
freethedevil
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on May 9th 2020, 7:56 am
@Latham2000 wrote:The fight was real, Star Wars Galaxy magazine (published in 2012), republished the Resurrection story in two parts, and stated that Maul was resurrected.
Interesting. Still, wouldn't it be retconned by TCW? TCW was part of the old eu, no?


Regardless, for all using the fight, this still applies:
Secondly, the only reason the duel even happened is because the priestesses dared him to not use the force. Said priestesses said, "you could destroy us all with the force." That includes Maul.


Fodder still gets his neck snapped  ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 4 1648373583
Vader's Legacy
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on May 9th 2020, 8:15 am
How can you be calling him fodder now when your girl got her ass kicked by him  ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 4 815462187
NotAA3
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on May 9th 2020, 8:45 am
@freethedevil

Secondly, the only reason the duel even happened is because the priestesses dared him to not use the force. Said priestesses said, "you could destroy us all with the force." That includes Maul.


Even if you take the fight as real, it would only be a representation of what a sabers only encounter would look like. Vader, both by feats, and by the priestesses admission should be able to snap maul's neck before their lightsaber skills even come into the picture.

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 4 39523600

"You could destroy us all with the Force" isn't a direct quotation - the actual quote is just them saying Vader could destroy them all (the Force is never mentioned), but Sidious would think less of him. Why would Sidious think less of Vader for ripping Maul to shreds with the Force? "Congratulations, you destroyed him and proved yourself stronger, but it doesn't count because you used the Force." That seems very in character for Sidious to say... not. Moreover, the fight was set up to determine who is the stronger apprentice: Vader or Maul, yet it is apparently limited to sabers only? That seems highly suspect.

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 4 1668617588

I'd posit another explanation - that being that Maul's life is directly tied to the prophets (they die, he dies), as they created him (assuming he functions like a traditional doppelganger). That makes far more sense of the statement without jumping to absurd conclusions like Vader being able to destroy Maul with the Force, yet not doing so for basically the whole duel.

I see the cop-outs for the Resurrection fight are getting weaker by the day. ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 4 1289255181


Last edited by NotAA3 on May 9th 2020, 9:46 am; edited 1 time in total
freethedevil
freethedevil

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 4 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on May 9th 2020, 9:21 am
The G Canon Purist wrote:How can you be calling him fodder now when your girl got her ass kicked by him  ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 4 815462187
They kicked each other's ass if we're going to get technical about it. But yes, as of rots, ahsoka is fodder's level(a little bit below actually). As of Rebels, she's moved up beyond fodder's wildest hopes and dreams:
https://prnt.sc/scg2kk
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 4 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

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