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BoD
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:53 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
The RotJ novel quote is outdated. Lucas made clear OT Vader and Luke isn't as good as Jinn, TPM Kenobi, or Maul who represent the prime of the Jedi, do to Vader along with ANH Kenobi and Luke being old and washed-up and inexperienced. 

Going by this logic, Qui-Gon and TPM Kenobi > Dooku, Mace and Sidious because they're older (all three of them are also older than ANH Vader). Mace and Sidious' fight is slower than the ROTJ Luke vs Vader fight, so unless you're also agreeing that Dooku and Sidious for example are inferior, this quote makes no sense as a basis for TPM Kenobi being > Vader. Even a month after Mustafar Vader who could barely even walk could defeat incredibly skilled and experienced post-Clone Wars Jedi.



Vader's feats and overall performance level pre-OT is just simply better, that in addition to Lucas's statements is where I get the impression a younger more driven Vader is superior to older resigned to serve Vader.

That's not how it works. Vader resigned himself to servitude after SK proved a failure (and I'm not even sure he even stopped at that point) until he found out about the pilot who destroyed the Death Star. By ESB, he'd grown far more formidable in both skill and power as he again had someone who could help him overthrow Sidious. 

Lucas supports this, by the way, saying "Luke is Vader's hope."
O-Siri
O-Siri

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sat Apr 11, 2020 5:57 am
@Latham2000

I agree ESB Vader has good motivation, which is why I can buy the idea of him being "far more formidable" to ANH Vader. Luke rekindled his hope of being top dog and was driven again. He's still inferior to the aforementioned PT greats  as per Lucas however.
The lord of hunger
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:09 am
@O-Siri wrote:@The lord of hunger

The RotJ novel quote is outdated. Lucas made clear OT Vader and Luke isn't as good as Jinn, TPM Kenobi, or Maul who represent the prime of the Jedi, do to Vader along with ANH Kenobi and Luke being old and washed-up and inexperienced. 

Vader's feats and overall performance level pre-OT is just simply better, that in addition to Lucas's statements is where I get the impression a younger more driven Vader is superior to older resigned to serve Vader. So in essence it's a combination of creator statements, feats, and speculation based on logic. All just my opinion of course.
nope its not outdated in any shape or form lucas backed up the novel like any other one 
secondly lucas only declared how the styles differ from each other between trilogies when you get a quote explicitly stating that qui gon is more powerful than any of them then we can talk 
ok i guess even if the lore states otherwise
Latham2000
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:14 am
@O-Siri wrote:@Latham2000

I agree ESB Vader has good motivation, which is why I can buy the idea of him being "far more formidable" to ANH Vader. Luke rekindled his hope of being top dog and was driven again. He's still inferior to the aforementioned PT greats  as per Lucas however.

Lucas says that the Jedi in their prime of the PT are faster paced and more energetic duelists than the OT Jedi... That's it. You don't need to insert any extra meaning in that quote, nor does it automatically lock the OT Jedi beneath all the PT Jedi who are in their prime. Being a faster paced and more energetic duelist than Vader, who isn't a speed orientated duelist to begin with, isn't saying much either.
O-Siri
O-Siri

ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:26 am
@BoD wrote:Going by this logic, Qui-Gon and TPM Kenobi > Dooku, Mace and Sidious because they're older (all three of them are also older than ANH Vader). Mace and Sidious' fight is slower than the ROTJ Luke vs Vader fight, so unless you're also agreeing that Dooku and Sidious for example are inferior, this quote makes no sense as a basis for TPM Kenobi being > Vader. Even a month after Mustafar Vader who could barely even walk could defeat incredibly skilled and experienced post-Clone Wars Jedi.

No because feats and holistic intent says Dooku and Sidious are superior to TPM Kenobi unlike Vader and ANH Kenobi. Sidious, Mace, Yoda, and Dooku who unlike Vader isn't crippled, where apparently able to compensate for age related disadvantages with superior power and experience Vader and ANH Kenobi weren't able too.

I would agree if it were just a random quote that wasn't backed up by feats or the OT narrative like that retarded quote that says ANH Kenobi is two tier above Vader in the Force, but it is. ANH Kenobi stresses he's "getting to old for this sort of thing" Luke literally went to Force cram school for a couple of months at most and is competing with Vader. You're telling me TPM Kenobi who's not only properly trained but also well seasoned since he was thirteen, participated in many grueling field missions as well as major conflicts such as the Stark Hyperspace War and the Yinnchori uprising, can't one-up Luke's performance?
Latham2000
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:37 am
Reverse scaling is not a valid argument. ESB Luke was able to challenge Vader because of raw talent, which obviously has something to do with the fact that he is from the Skywalker lineage, who have unrivalled aptitude that Kenobi can't hope to hold a candle to. Moreover, Luke was fuelled by an extraordinary hatred for Vader on Bespin, which Kenobi lacks.
The lord of hunger
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:38 am
reverse scaling doesnt work in these situations its like saying ben kenobi > sidious if we take the lucas quote from 1977 as a solid argument
Latham2000
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:42 am
If we still accept Ben as a 6, then we also have to accept that he is RotJ Sidious level because he's been stated to be a 6, and by that standard, Ben can rag doll the shit out of the PT titans that get worshipped on this forum like they're the only things standing between them and their eternal damnation, so I don't understand how the quote shits on Vader when it shits everyone in the PT at the same time, with the only possible exceptions being RotS Sidious and RotS Yoda.
The lord of hunger
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:43 am
@Latham2000 wrote:If we still accept Ben as a 6, then we also have to accept that he is RotJ Sidious level because he's been stated to be a 6, and by that standard, Ben can rag doll the shit out of the PT titans that get worshipped on this forum like they're the only things standing between them and their eternal damnation, so I don't understand how the quote shits on Vader when it shits everyone in the PT at the same time, with the only possible exceptions being RotS Sidious and RotS Yoda.
+1
BoD
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:57 am
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
No because feats and holistic intent says Dooku and Sidious are superior to TPM Kenobi unlike Vader and ANH Kenobi. Sidious, Mace, Yoda, and Dooku who unlike Vader isn't crippled, where apparently able to compensate for age related disadvantages with superior power and experience Vader and ANH Kenobi weren't able too.

First, being more agile or more energetic doesn't make you superior to an opponent like Vader, who emphasises strength, directness and also countering an opponent's every attack. TPM Kenobi isn't succeeding where two veterans from a war failed despite using every possible technique and style they could think of, yet Vader had a counter for every single one. Bruce Lee isn't beating the Rock because he's more acrobatic and energetic.

Second, Vader has already proven himself superior to several PT Jedi - one of whom was among the "most brutal" in the Order by the start of the Clone Wars and was one of the greatest Morgukai warriors before his Jedi training (who in turn can be scaled from the PT Jedi knights they "sometimes" were a match for) from 30 BBY onwards - a month after Mustafar when he struggled to even move. Within a month, his form and technique had massively improved from even that, to the point that he's noticeably faster and more agile. So in the span of two months in 19 BBY, Vader goes from a crippled, barely able to move Sith who can stomp one of the most brutal combatants in the PT Jedi Order before the Clone Wars even began, then grows a month later to the point that he can toy with two accomplished knights using every form, style and technique they can think of to even penetrate his defences, yet can't do anything. There's no "holistic intent" where this is concerned, nor is there a way to consolidate a month post Mustafar Vader stomping Clone Wars veterans in combat with the idea that a Vader (who improved immensely in a mere month) 19 years later has somehow still remained below TPM Kenobi. And please do not use the ANH Ben fight as there were multiple circumstances and factors in that fight that I will be posting about soon. 


I would agree if it were just a random quote that wasn't backed up by feats

It's also contradicted by countless examples, including Purge, The Rise of Darth Vader, The Rise and Fall of Darth Vader, Dark Times, The Force Unleashed, and countless other sources published after those two quotes and thus directly contradicting it. 



 like that retarded quote that says ANH Kenobi is two tier above Vader in the Force, but it is

Are you also aware that that source has ANH Kenobi ~ ANH/ESB Sidious? Because by this scaling, ANH Kenobi couldn't defeat ANH Vader (a 4), indicating he is on some level comparable to the ROTS titans. Once again, if we go by Lucas quotes, this contradicts the notion that Vader is somehow < TPM Kenobi.



ANH Kenobi stresses he's "getting to old for this sort of thing"

Ben also wanted Luke to come, learn how to be a Jedi, and help Ben defeat Vader and Sidious. Not a trustworthy source.



Luke literally went to Force cram school for a couple of months at most

Seven months, which were heavily geared around combat and using the Force. It even involved spars with Yoda himself.



and is competing with Vader.

Depending on the sources, Vader was holding back, toying with Luke, or capable of fairly easily overwhelming him at any point. False equivalence.



You're telling me TPM Kenobi who's not only properly trained but also well seasoned since he was thirteen, 

Ma'kis'shaalas joined the Jedi Order around 30 BBY and was already considered one of the greatest Morgukai warriors ever trained even before undergoing Jedi training. Vader stomped him while fighting another veteran Jedi master at the same time. 


 participated in many grueling field missions as well as major conflicts such as the Stark Hyperspace War and the Yinnchori uprising,

You mean like Tsui Choi, who needed 3 other Jedi to distract one month-post Mustafar Vader just to land a hit and sever his hand?






can't one-up Luke's performance?

An untrained Luke in ANH was stated by Vader to already have the power of a Jedi knight. Vader knows exactly how someone like Kenobi will fight, he has a counter for everything he can or will do, and he's considerably more skilled. He also doesn't enjoy the luxury of being critical to Vader's future plans (overthrowing the Emperor), so no: he can't.
Ziggy
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:50 am
@Latham2000 wrote:Vader beat Maul in a similar fashion as TPM Kenobi yeah... Similar, but not precisely the same. TPM Kenobi used a surprise attack against a gloating Maul who was too confused to realize what Kenobi was doing because of arrogance. Vader however, stabbed himself whilst stabbing Maul, who was trying to deliver the final blow.


I agree.  

Vader had to stab himself to win.  Kenobi did not.

Suppose it's any guess who's better of the two ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 4233314142
Latham2000
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:03 am
Vader stabbed himself in the gut because he knew he could afford to do and survive. There's no way TPM Kenobi can survive stabbing himself in the gut and survive unless if he immediately gets medical help.
BoD
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:11 am
Ziggy proving once again that you don't need logical thoughts to post on a debating board when you can just troll.
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:23 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Why is this thread a thing?....Seriously?
Latham2000
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sat Apr 11, 2020 9:32 am
Anything is possible if you shitpost hard enough.
Ziggy
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sat Apr 11, 2020 12:35 pm
@Latham2000 wrote:Vader stabbed himself in the gut because he knew he could afford to do and survive. There's no way TPM Kenobi can survive stabbing himself in the gut and survive unless if he immediately gets medical help.


Everyone has their tipple.  

To you, how well a man can stab himself and get a way with determines who's better overall.  

But I much value the man who leaped from his disadvantaged standing and slashed Maul in half before he could react.
The lord of hunger
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sat Apr 11, 2020 6:09 pm
The trolling.... This is why vader debates suck in this site
Latham2000
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sat Apr 11, 2020 8:02 pm
I very much value the man who stabbed himself whilst stabbing his opponent who was delivering a killing blow over the other man who used a surprise attack over a Maul who had no battle stance and wasn't paying attention to what was going on
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sun Apr 12, 2020 12:54 am
@SithSauce:

Are you serious? He never lost "handily" to Maul. The fight went on for a few pages and was described as an equal confrontation.

The quote you posted merely notes that it was more evenly matched than they suspected it would be (With the implication being that they thought it was likely to be a stomp), not that it was a battle of equals. There's a distinction between the 2, which you'd know if you weren't constantly sucking Vader off.

And Maul vs TPM Kenobi definitely wasn't an equal confrontation.

Nor was Vader vs Maul.

Kenobi pretty much got his ass kicked at all turns.

You're ignoring key points that Grey already made note of and just countering with "Well actually it was just Maul kicking his ass" without explaining why. The points in question include Kenobi lasting longer than Jinn and pushing Maul harder, to the point where the guy was desperate as a result of the brawl. Feel free to point me to where Vader brought Maul to desperation.

While Maul was able to best Vader in saber combat. Vader still managed to split his saber in half

Guess who else did that? Oh right, Kenobi.

and win through superior power which the prophets admitted.

Nowhere in the duel is it stated that Vader was precluded from using the force, nor would it make sense for that to be the case in a fight meant to decide who the greatest sith apprentice was (Spoiler: Being a sith apprentice has a lot to do with force power). The prophets saying that Vader could "destroy them all" is likely referencing the event where Vader kills them and Maul dies as a result (Don't think it's unreasonable to suggest that a duplicate is bound to the life of his creators).

So really Vader's bout with Maul proves he is above TPM Kenobi more than anything

You keep believing that buddy. But until you learn to debate properly you likely aren't capable of proving it.


Last edited by ScionOfSkywalker77 on Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:04 am; edited 1 time in total
O-Siri
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:08 am
@BoD

1. Purge Vader =/= OT Vader.


EU Vader is a tank I agree. He by the feat of being faster than 18 BBY Kenobi is better than TPM Kenobi. Most writers want to portray Vader as a badass, hence the inconsistencies with the OT narrative. The simplest in universe explanation is Vader got weaker with time, both physically and mentally, not better. A Vader still in his twenties, active in hunting down Jedi and searching for Kenobi, and motivated as hell in his quest to reawaken his potential strikes me as someone superior to an older resigned to serve Vader who knows he realistically can't surpass Sidious. 


2. Ben is weaker than Vader I agree.  I think if Vader forced the issue a bit more he would have beaten him more decisively. He was just a bit tentative.


3.  Luke got the better of Vader with energy and agility. Kenobi can too. It was youth vs experience. Kenobi has a lot more experience than Luke.
BoD
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sun Apr 12, 2020 2:44 am
[size=33]1. Purge Vader [/size]=/= OT Vader.

You're right. OT Vader is much more powerful and has been stated to have "overcome the restrictions of his suit", around the same time as ANH or shortly after. 




EU Vader is a tank I agree. He by the feat of being faster than 18 BBY Kenobi is better than TPM Kenobi. Most writers want to portray Vader as a badass, hence the inconsistencies with the OT narrative. The simplest in universe explanation is Vader got weaker with time, both physically and mentally, not better. A Vader still in his twenties, active in hunting down Jedi and searching for Kenobi, and motivated as hell in his quest to reawaken his potential strikes me as someone superior to an older resigned to serve Vader who knows he realistically can't surpass Sidious. 




This I can understand as a perspective, but I disagree in some respects. I don't believe Vader declined massively per say. I think he got complacent. Vader never ran out of Jedi to fight and kill, for example Ferus Olin and the Dark Woman in 1/0 BBY, Galen Marek in 2 BBY, and fighting Starkiller in 1 BBY. Vader's raw power continued to increase at a considerable pace, and his lightsaber skills, while possibly not at the same level they were at his prime, had begun to improve again as early as 4 or 3 BBY. By ESB, his skills are beyond anything we've seen before, then he advances yet again in ROTJ due to the discovery that Luke is his son and can help him overthrow the Emperor.

At best, you could argue after Starkiller's (presumed) death, Vader resigned himself to servitude until 0 BBY, when the Death Star was destroyed and he began hunting down the Death Star pilot. That's a decline of only about a year, meaning that while Vader's skills in ANH were lesser than they were beforehand, it didn't stop him from performing feats like stomping the Dark Woman or fighting SK evenly. 

The chain probably looks like this:

Unhindered ROTJ Vader > ESB Vader >> ANH Vader ~ peak Dark Times Vader >> end of RoDV Vader >>> beginning of RoDV (Purge #1) Vader. 

Can you argue he declined? Yes. 

Can you claim he's massively below peak Dark Times Vader despite having only let go of his desire to overthrow Sidious about a year beforehand? No. 

Thus, there's no reason to claim he's suddenly gone from being massively above a version of Vader capable of killing Jedi masters with ease and stomping notably skilled Jedi like Ma'kis'shaalas a month after Mustafar when he could barely move without the Force, then toying with fully fledged knights a month later (who were war veterans and who he had a counter to every technique, form, and style they tried)...to suddenly declining so drastically he's below TPM Kenobi. I'm not even sure TPM Kenobi is above Tsui Choi or Ma'kis'shaalas.


2. Ben is weaker than Vader I agree.  I think if Vader forced the issue a bit more he would have beaten him more decisively. He was just a bit tentative.

"A bit" is an understatement, but the general idea here I agree with.




3.  Luke got the better of Vader with energy and agility.



"got the better of" Vader in ESB?  ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 1668617588



I think you forget that even ANH Luke had enough power to rival Jedi knights, then had 6-7 months of intensive, specialist training with Yoda himself (including spars with him). TPM Kenobi can't claim the same.



Kenobi can too. It was youth vs experience. Kenobi has a lot more experience than Luke.

And Luke has a hell of a lot more motivation (as Lucas describes, he's fighting the man who killed Ben, wiped out the Jedi, and killed his father), raw power, and has the advantage of specialist training. Likewise, Vader will want to kill him, unlike Luke.
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:38 am
Women are a problem. So basically the female gender as a whole is evil and none of them have any moral compass. I personally think that just opening your legs as a woman gets you money in this country. Ben Shapiro is probably the smartest man ever to walk the earth, I think it's a toss up between him Donald Trump and David Duke. Personally white pride should be completely allowed given how there is black pride so obviously we should be equal and have white pride. #rehumanizethebadge Cops have been getting a terrible reputation for murdering 🐵 people which is just wrong. We all need to unite under the great Tom Wilkes Booth and embrace his values imho.
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sun Apr 12, 2020 3:41 am
ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 39523600
Latham2000
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:06 am
> Korriban wrote:Women are a problem. So basically the female gender as a whole is evil and none of them have any moral compass. I personally think that just opening your legs as a woman gets you money in this country. Ben Shapiro is probably the smartest man ever to walk the earth, I think it's a toss up between him Donald Trump and David Duke. Personally white pride should be completely allowed given how there is black pride so obviously we should be equal and have white pride. #rehumanizethebadge Cops have been getting a terrible reputation for murdering 🐵 people which is just wrong. We all need to unite under the great Tom Wilkes Booth and embrace his values imho.
You've been taking death sticks again. You want to go to bed and swear that you will not take them again.
BoD
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ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi  - Page 2 Empty Re: ANH Vader vs TPM Kenobi

on Sun Apr 12, 2020 4:55 am
> Korriban wrote:Women are a problem. So basically the female gender as a whole is evil and none of them have any moral compass. I personally think that just opening your legs as a woman gets you money in this country. Ben Shapiro is probably the smartest man ever to walk the earth, I think it's a toss up between him Donald Trump and David Duke. Personally white pride should be completely allowed given how there is black pride so obviously we should be equal and have white pride. #rehumanizethebadge Cops have been getting a terrible reputation for murdering 🐵 people which is just wrong. We all need to unite under the great Tom Wilkes Booth and embrace his values imho.
It's okay, everyone. ISV is just having a mid-brigade crisis. He'll be back to his normal(?) self soon.
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