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Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 1st 2020, 8:05 am
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
@KingofBlades

First and foremost, we have this source saying that after Maul got cut in half by Kenobi in TPM, he was replaced by more Dooku and Vader, who were more powerful than him:
Lets see:

When Darth Sidious took on even more powerful disciples -- Darth Tyranus, then Tyranus's replacement, Darth Vader...

Let's see the rest of the quote:

"When Darth Sidious took on even more powerful disciples -- Darth Tyranus, then Tyranus's replacement, Darth Vader - the deeply sinister presence of the Sith plunged the entire galaxy into turmoil.


Darth Vader killed the Emperor shortly before his own death as the redeemed Jedi, Anakin Skywalker. The Sith  order seemed at an end"



I'll respond to the crux of this in your next point:

@KingofBlades wrote:This source can in fact be used to definitively assert that Pre Suit Darth Vader was more powerful than TPM Maul. However thats all it can definitively tell us. The quote says the disciples that Sidious "took on" were more powerful than TPM Maul, ergo Vader and Tyranus were more powerful than Maul upon their induction into the order. Vader, however, has a massive drop off in power after he was maimed by Obi Wan during their battle on Mustafar. Due to this fact, Vader post Mustafar can no longer definitively claim to be more powerful than TPM Maul. Of course its possible that Suit Vader was in fact more powerful than Darth Maul, but the quote you provided doesn't shed light on the veracity of that claim. If you want to argue that, use something else.

Thanks for blatantly ignoring the rest of my post addressing the argument that I knew would be used against this; "And before anyone resorts to semantics by saying this is referring to pre-suit Vader because it talks about Sidious taking on new apprentices, the quote itself isn't specifically referring to Vader as of the time he replaced Dooku and limiting supremacy it to pre-suit Vader. It says that Sidious replaced Maul with even more powerful apprentices, starting with Dooku and continuing with Vader, the latter of whom is mentioned as also being Dooku's replacement, which goes without saying. Vader being Dooku's replacement didn't expire the moment he became a cyborg, he remained Dooku's replacement until he returned to the Light and betrayed Sidious by chucking him down a shaft on the Death Star. As for the version of Vader that's being talked about, it's talking about suited Vader because on the exact same page, there has a sidenote talking about Vader betraying Sidious by throwing him to his death in Return of the Jedi whilst showing us an image of Sidious hurled down the shaft by Vader. That is the evidence for the quote referring to RotJ Vader, Vader skeptics can't argue against that with semantics."

The source itself says that pre-suit Vader is more powerful than TPM Maul? Correct. The Source itself is only referring to pre-suit Vader as of his induction in the Sith Order and exclusively limiting Vader's supremacy over Maul to pre-suit Vader and no other version of Vader? That's incorrect because when it talks about the disciples that Sheev "took on" were more powerful than TPM Maul, the very next sentence of the same page of the same source talks about Vader throwing Sheev to his first death, saying "Darth Vader killed the Emperor shortly before his own death as the redeemed Jedi, Anakin Skywalker. The Sith  order seemed at an end" whilst showing us an image of Palpatine falling to his first death at the hands of Vader in Vader in RotJ. Ergo, the source is establishing that pre-suit RotS Vader and suited RotJ Vader is more powerful than TPM Maul. Vader had a massive drop in power after getting maimed by Obi-Wan during their battle on Mustafar doesn't mean refute RotJ Vader's supremacy over TPM Maul because TPM Maul doesn't even hold a candle to pre-suit Vader, who George implies as being as strong as the Emperor before getting maimed as he says "He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku." --> pre-suit Vader is as strong as the Emperor i.e. RotS Sheev, which is what he wanted, but after getting maimed by Obi-Wan on Mustafar, he was no longer as strong as the Emperor, but was like Maul and Dooku, who were subordinate to the Emperor because they're weaker than him. You don't need to be as strong as the Emperor to be more powerful than TPM Maul, because TPM Maul is not as strong as the Emperor to begin with, not even close. Pre-suit Vader's relativity to RotS Sheev makes him enormously more powerful than TPM Maul, who got Force choked by pre-boost TPM Sheev in Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul. Suited Vader never fully recovered the power that he lost on Mustafar in the 23 year time passage between RotS and RotJ, but he did grow in power during the years, so he did recover some of the power that he lost, though not all of it to, but he doesn't need to recover all of the power that he lost to hold supremacy over TPM Maul because it's not like TPM Maul ever held a candle to Sheev in the first place, given that he got Force choked by him at least once, and is absolutely terrified of Sheev's power.


@KingofBlades wrote:Now what if you want to just hand-wave the analysis of what the quote actually tells us and just say that this quote refers to Vader wholesale, suit or no. Well that means you are saying that the quote Ethan provided is flat out wrong. This is what it boils down to. We can go with

The quote refers to pre-suit Vader and RotJ Vader, though we can't say it refers to Vader as of his entire career between RotS and RotJ, but we can safely say that it refers to pre-suit RotS Vader and also suited RotJ Vader, though it doesn't extend to any version of Vader that isn't RotS pre-suit or suited RotJ Vader. Ethan hasn't even told us the release date of the quote he cited, the quote that I cited is from an issue from Star Wars: The Official Figurine Collection, a series that started in September 2005. Not to mention, the quote he cited says that Maul's fight with Qui-Gon is proof that the Jedi of the Prequels would demonstrate far more power and agility than they had in the Original trilogy, but there are only 3 Jedi in the Original trilogy: An out of practise Ben Kenobi, a retired and exiled Yoda, a Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker (who as of RotJ is equal to Vader as of RotJ). The context of Ethan's quote also doesn't specify which PT era Jedi are better than the OT Jedi, it doesn't even reference TPM Kenobi, it references TPM Maul and TPM Qui-Gon, both of whom are better than TPM Kenobi anyway. Outside of Qui-Gon and Maul (who isn't even a Jedi Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 3 1668617588 ), it's already ambigious on how many the PT era Jedi are better than the OT era Jedi, but it's irrational to inteprete it as literally every single Jedi being better than Ben, Yoda, Luke and Vader, unless if you're actually willing to argue that freaking younglings are better than these guys, or a random character like Zett Jukassa is better than them  Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 3 2208776636

@KingofBlades wrote:A) Your personal interpretation of a source who's message is at best ambiguous, and at worst contrary to your argument, making a quote that explicitly states TPM Kenobi > Vader wrong because...reasons? or...

*My intepretation of a source whose message is explicitly about pre-suit Vader and RotJ Vader when paying attention to the entire quote, as opposed to looking at one sentence and ignoring the next sentence. The quote that Ethan provided doesn't even reference TPM Kenobi in the first place.

@KingofBlades wrote:B) An interpretation of your source that doesn't contradict the source that Ethan provided; I.E The quote only referring to Pre Suit Darth Vader(though this is hardly the only quote that implies TPM Kenobi is>Vader)

Looks like I've got you rattled.
Underachiever599
Underachiever599

Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 1st 2020, 11:53 am
Gonna stay out of the larger debate around Vader's placement (just don't have the time these days) and instead give my opinion about the specific match up.

The B-Team is nearly featless. Kit Fisto is the only truly notable character in the B-Team, and his biggest claims to fame are being better than ~AotC Kenobi, getting beaten by early Ventress, and showing superiority to early Grievous who had just undergone agonizing repairs. 

Vader, meanwhile, is definitively above Ventress at her peak, which should put Vader well above Kit Fisto. Luke is equal to Vader, which should also put him above Fisto. Either member of the duo should be able to nearly solo. Together, the B-Team gets stomped almost as hard as when they faced Sheev.
IG
IG
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Level Four

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April 1st 2020, 12:17 pm
@Underachiever599 wrote:Gonna stay out of the larger debate around Vader's placement (just don't have the time these days) and instead give my opinion about the specific match up.

The B-Team is nearly featless. Kit Fisto is the only truly notable character in the B-Team, and his biggest claims to fame are being better than ~AotC Kenobi, getting beaten by early Ventress, and showing superiority to early Grievous who had just undergone agonizing repairs. 

Vader, meanwhile, is definitively above Ventress at her peak, which should put Vader well above Kit Fisto. Luke is equal to Vader, which should also put him above Fisto. Either member of the duo should be able to nearly solo. Together, the B-Team gets stomped almost as hard as when they faced Sheev.
Yes, featless, definitely. Vader being definitively above Ventress is a lie, there's no quote or scaling that says this definitively.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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April 1st 2020, 12:25 pm
Vader being definitively above Ventress is a lie, there's no quote or scaling that says this definitively.


In that particular instance, Bane and Sidious were foiled, but Sidious' basic aims remained. He sought to create a network of Force-wielding agents loyal only to him. None would be trained sufficiently to be a threat to Darth Bane's insistence that there only be two Sith, nor would they be a threat to Darth Sidious or his apprentice, Darth Vader. The most powerful of these agents were "only" Sith adepts but would appear almost as dark Jedi - the likes of Asajj Ventress, Mara Jade, or Inquisitor Valin Draco (in fact, a fallen Jedi). The lesser agents were reduced to still-deadly faceless minions. Among their ranks were the Shadow Guard.


And before you or someone else goes the semantics route and say she was trained to that level but could have grown, Ventress was explicitly held back by her training even as of 19 BBY:




"Then reward me! Make me your apprentice! Teach me the ways of the Sith!" 



"Have I not taught you many secrets, Asajj?" 



"Scraps. Little devices. Lesser arts. Not nearly what you would if I were your apprentice sworn in blood, I know. I am no fool," she said angrily. As if he didn't know that. As if she needed to convince him she was deadly. "I have learned much about the Sith. Their lineage and their greatness."

-

"But do I really want to make you so strong?" the Count said softly. "We are such pleasant company now, while you know your place. But if I were to make you my apprentice, if I were to take you by the hand and lead you down below the black water that is the dark side, then either you would drown, or you would grow far stronger, and neither option appeals to me. You burn so brightly now, I would hate to put you out."



Dooku was explicitly holding her back:


"In a perfect world," Dooku said, "one could feed an apprentice just enough to keep him growing—just enough to keep him wanting more. The Master could promise him fame, glamour. That's a good one to deliver on," he said. "He could do the Master's bidding, be his public face. Then if any of the Master's plans went wrong, why, he could take the fall." Dooku looked up, his eyes suddenly sharp and very much in the present. "Does that sound good to you, Asajj? Would you truly like to be my apprentice? I could make you the most feared woman in the galaxy. All the Jedi would come looking for you, while I sat safe and sound in Coruscant, biding my time."

Asajj licked her lips again. "Let them come,"





Skilled and powerful enough to fight Jedi below the high tiers (the high 8s and the 9s) but not a threat to them in that they could dispatch her. Dooku didn't consider her a significant threat as she was at this point, supporting the quote. If you have evidence Ventress grew beyond her training to such an extent that she became worthy of being a Sith apprentice and thus ~/> Vader, please provide it. 
xmysticgohanx
xmysticgohanx

Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 1st 2020, 12:34 pm
Canon: either Vader or Luke solos
Legends: Luke and Vader win after a good fight
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
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Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 1st 2020, 1:00 pm
latham just solo this thread marvelous job
Latham2000
Latham2000
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Level Three

Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 1st 2020, 1:38 pm
To reinforce RotJ Vader's supremacy over TPM Maul (TPM Kenobi and even AotC Kenobi's superior), we have this to consider:

"Perhaps the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader, Executor Sedriss remained loyal to the Emperor after the death of his clone over the Rebels' Pinnacle Base." -- Handbook 3: Dark Empire

This source explicitly states that Sedriss was "perhaps" the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Vader, meaning that Vader is Palpatine's strongest disciple. It is ambigious on whether Sedriss is actually second to Vader, but it is very clear that Vader is the top dog as Palpatine's strongest disciple, and the quote certainly applies to TPM Maul because it doesn't impose any limitations to any era or faction, and that version of Maul served and obeyed Palpatine without question (Shadow Hunter even says that if Palpatine ordered Maul to commit suicide, he'd do it). Not to mention, the source itsself was published in April 2000, a year after Maul made his debut in TPM that was publicly released in May 1999.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
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April 1st 2020, 1:43 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Thanks for blatantly ignoring the rest of my post addressing the argument that I knew would be used against this; "And before anyone resorts to semantics by saying this is referring to pre-suit Vader because it talks about Sidious taking on new apprentices, the quote itself isn't specifically referring to Vader as of the time he replaced Dooku and limiting supremacy it to pre-suit Vader. It says that Sidious replaced Maul with even more powerful apprentices, starting with Dooku and continuing with Vader, the latter of whom is mentioned as also being Dooku's replacement, which goes without saying. Vader being Dooku's replacement didn't expire the moment he became a cyborg, he remained Dooku's replacement until he returned to the Light and betrayed Sidious by chucking him down a shaft on the Death Star. As for the version of Vader that's being talked about, it's talking about suited Vader because on the exact same page, there has a sidenote talking about Vader betraying Sidious by throwing him to his death in Return of the Jedi whilst showing us an image of Sidious hurled down the shaft by Vader. That is the evidence for the quote referring to RotJ Vader, Vader skeptics can't argue against that with semantics."

I addressed why I believed the quote can only be used to refer to Pre Suit Vader. The fact that I didn't quote your entire post doesn't mean I didn't respond. Going onto your point; "Vader being Dooku's replacement didn't expire the moment he became a cyborg, he remained Dooku's replacement until he returned to the Light and betrayed Sidious by chucking him down a shaft on the Death Star". According to you, Vader the very moment he got put into the suit and could barely move around was more powerful than Darth Maul?  Again, though, there are other plausible interpretations of the quote that don't contradict Ethan's and various other sources. Instead of copy pasting the text onto here, lets look at a pic of the source you provided.


Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 3 Image0



The part where it talks about Vader killing the emperor is a blurb annotation for the pictures it provided, boxed off from the main text. This isn't a continuation of the main text. Which means there is absolutely no reason to take the two statements hand in hand. We can treat them independently of one another. So the blurb talking about Suited Darth Vader cannot be used as proof for the preceding passage also referring to Suited Vader. So once again, we're left with the preceding passage to analyze. And I stand by what I said earlier,
 "This source can in fact be used to definitively assert that Pre Suit Darth Vader was more powerful than TPM Maul. However thats all it can definitively tell us. The quote says the disciples that Sidious "took on" were more powerful than TPM Maul, ergo Vader and Tyranus were more powerful than Maul upon their induction into the order. Vader, however, has a massive drop off in power after he was maimed by Obi Wan during their battle on Mustafar. Due to this fact, Vader post Mustafar can no longer definitively claim to be more powerful than TPM Maul. Of course its possible that Suit Vader was in fact more powerful than Darth Maul, but the quote you provided doesn't shed light on the veracity of that claim. If you want to argue that, use something else." 
 I think I should stress that just because a source that is obviously referring to a distinct version of a character in its main text has an unrelated blurb which talks about a radically different version to the character a picture right does not mean we can apply what was said about the former iteration of the character to the latter. If a source said Revan as of the events of Kotor was more powerful than Exar Kun had an unrelated blurb annotating a picture about foundry Revan(Note Foundry Revan is not definitively above earlier iterations of his character, hence me using him as an example) next to it, I wouldn't be able to apply the >Kun accolade to Foundry Revan. Of course it might be possible that Foundry Revan would be in fact >Kun, but that would have to be proven with sources different from the one talking about Kotor Revan. What I've provided is a perfectly plausible alternate interpretation for the source that Latham provided, but the main point I was trying to make was that my interpretation does not contradict the source that Ethan provided. The same cannot be said for your interpretation. Now what if you just aren't convinced by my interpretation and still believe you are reading the source correctly. Ethan's quote still exists and it is explicitly referring to the combat power of the PT Jedi. So what, we're left with two sources that contradict one another? Maybe 1-1 is enough for you to maintain your belief that Vader is >TPM Maul. Fortuantely -- or unfortunately for some -- there are other sources that serve as our tie breaker:



"We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing" - George Lucas 

Star Wars Episode I Featurette: Fights 


Since George Lucas set Episode I at a time when the Jedi Knights were at the height of their powers, Gillard ramped up the action, stunt work and, of course, lightsaber duels for the new film.

Starwars.com - Episode I Production Notes


“We will finally get to see Jedi do what Jedi were designed to do. In the first one, you had this very old Jedi who was ready to go, and one who had been reconstructed who was half human and half machine. The only other Jedi who comes along is Luke, who is sort of semi-trained by Yoda, but never really gets the full training. So you’ve never seen a real Jedi doing what the real Jedi do, until now.” - George Lucas

Star Wars Insider Magazine #35 


Until the Prequels, the only Jedi we’d seen in combat were old men and an inexperienced youth… and clearly, we hadn’t seen anything. 

Star Wars Insider Magazine #88


Before this scene, the lightsaber battles we’d seen in the Star Wars movies involved older Jedi, or Jedi who were yet to become full-fledged Jedi Knights, but here we saw Jedi and Sith fighting when they were at the top of their game.

Star Wars Insider Magazine #131

Now you might talk about how this is referring to the fighting choreography of the PT compared to the OT, but this isn't actually addressing anything. George is using the improved choreography to convey his belief that the PT jedi were superior to what we saw in the OT. It doesn't make sense to separate the two. Lets look at one of the above quotes I provided so I can prove my point:




"We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing" - George Lucas 

Star Wars Episode I Featurette: Fights 

George thinks that we've never seen real jedi at work and that the jedi fighting in the PT are the prime of the jedi. Do you think George is saying this while also thinking "Yeah Vader would wipe the floor with that upstart Maul ". The message is clear, GL thinks that the PT Jedi>OT Jedi. This isn't even exclusive to the quote I used. I invite everyone to read the quotes I provided and then try and imagine the people who wrote/said those quotes also believing, "Yeah Vader would wipe the floor with that upstart Maul ". So in order for your interpretation of a single source to be true, not only does Ethan's Insider quote have to be wrong for seemingly no apparent reason, 5 other quotes(Some coming from GL himself) must also be wrong. That's the difference between my interpretation and yours imo. My interpretation works perfectly with all the sources I have provided you, while your interpretation flies contrary to half a dozen quotes. It seems clear to me which is the obvious choice.




The source itself says that pre-suit Vader is more powerful than TPM Maul? Correct. The Source itself is only referring to pre-suit Vader as of his induction in the Sith Order and exclusively limiting Vader's supremacy over Maul to pre-suit Vader and no other version of Vader? That's incorrect because when it talks about the disciples that Sheev "took on" were more powerful than TPM Maul, the very next sentence of the same page of the same source talks about Vader throwing Sheev to his first death, saying "Darth Vader killed the Emperor shortly before his own death as the redeemed Jedi, Anakin Skywalker. The Sith  order seemed at an end" whilst showing us an image of Palpatine falling to his first death at the hands of Vader in Vader in RotJ. Ergo, the source is establishing that pre-suit RotS Vader and suited RotJ Vader is more powerful than TPM MaulVader had a massive drop in power after getting maimed by Obi-Wan during their battle on Mustafar doesn't mean refute RotJ Vader's supremacy over TPM Maul because TPM Maul doesn't even hold a candle to pre-suit Vader, who George implies as being as strong as the Emperor before getting maimed as he says "He tries it with anybody he thinks might be more powerful, which is what the Emperor was looking for in the first place: somebody who would be more powerful than he was and could help him rule the universe. But Obi-Wan screwed that up by cutting off his arms and legs and burning him up. From then on, he wasn’t as strong as the Emperor – he was like Darth Maul or Count Dooku.--> pre-suit Vader is as strong as the Emperor i.e. RotS Sheev, which is what he wanted, but after getting maimed by Obi-Wan on Mustafar, he was no longer as strong as the Emperor, but was like Maul and Dooku, who were subordinate to the Emperor because they're weaker than him. You don't need to be as strong as the Emperor to be more powerful than TPM Maul, because TPM Maul is not as strong as the Emperor to begin with, not even close. Pre-suit Vader's relativity to RotS Sheev makes him enormously more powerful than TPM Maul, who got Force choked by pre-boost TPM Sheev in Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul. Suited Vader never fully recovered the power that he lost on Mustafar in the 23 year time passage between RotS and RotJ, but he did grow in power during the years, so he did recover some of the power that he lost, though not all of it to, but he doesn't need to recover all of the power that he lost to hold supremacy over TPM Maul because it's not like TPM Maul ever held a candle to Sheev in the first placegiven that he got Force choked by him at least once, and is absolutely terrified of Sheev's power.

I've pretty much addressed all of this but I'll pick a few of the points out that I haven't dealt with. You're correct that theoretically, Vader becoming far weaker than Palpatine doesn't neccessairly make him sub TPM Maul. However its still a possibility. All you've done is confirmed that the GL quotes you provided do not necessarily 

contradict your stance. That doesn't change the fact that the quote Ethan  provided, along with the 5 other quotes I've brought to the table, do in fact contradict your stance. 



The quote refers to pre-suit Vader and RotJ Vader, though we can't say it refers to Vader as of his entire career between RotS and RotJ, but we can safely say that it refers to pre-suit RotS Vader and also suited RotJ Vader, though it doesn't extend to any version of Vader that isn't RotS pre-suit or suited RotJ Vader. Ethan hasn't even told us the release date of the quote he cited, the quote that I cited is from an issue from Star Wars: The Official Figurine Collection, a series that started in September 2005. Not to mention, the quote he cited says that Maul's fight with Qui-Gon is proof that the Jedi of the Prequels would demonstrate far more power and agility than they had in the Original trilogy, but there are only 3 Jedi in the Original trilogy: An out of practise Ben Kenobi, a retired and exiled Yoda, a Jedi Knight Luke Skywalker (who as of RotJ is equal to Vader as of RotJ). The context of Ethan's quote also doesn't specify which PT era Jedi are better than the OT Jedi, it doesn't even reference TPM Kenobi, it references TPM Maul and TPM Qui-Gon, both of whom are better than TPM Kenobi anyway. Outside of Qui-Gon and Maul (who isn't even a Jedi Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 3 1668617588 ), it's already ambigious on how many the PT era Jedi are better than the OT era Jedi, but it's irrational to inteprete it as literally every single Jedi being better than Ben, Yoda, Luke and Vader, unless if you're actually willing to argue that freaking younglings are better than these guys, or a random character like Zett Jukassa is better than them  Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 3 2208776636

Ethan's quote does say that yes. There being only 3 jedi in the OT just means that the PT Jedi are >those 3 individuals. As to the context of which jedi it refers to, I agree that its silly to interpret this quote hyper literally and claim that literally every single member of the jedi order is above RotJ Luke, but I think we can reasonably assert that its talking about the jedi who are fighting in the films, hence the line, "
Jedi from the Prequels would demonstrate far more power and agility" with the key word being demonstrate. TPM Kenobi definitely falls under this bracket, him being not being directly mentioned doesn't mean he isn't apart of it. However, if we want to strip the quote down to only what it can tell us with absolute certainty, we can say without doubt that at least Qui Gon is "far more powerful" then the OT jedi, which would include RotJ Vader's equal in Luke Skywalker.  




*My intepretation of a source whose message is explicitly about pre-suit Vader and RotJ Vader when paying attention to the entire quote, as opposed to looking at one sentence and ignoring the next sentence. The quote that Ethan provided doesn't even reference TPM Kenobi in the first place.
The two passages aren't connected so no reason to treat them as if they're apart of the same quote. Not to mention I've shown what is required to be the case in order for your interpretation to be accepted. Are you willing to fly in the face of 6 quotes? I also think I've showed why TPM Kenobi should be taken as part of the quote, even if he isn't explicitly mentioned. At the very least, I think we should be able to agree that we can reliably use the quote to say that Qui Gon is above RotJ Luke, given that he's the one who is explicitly mentioned. Personally, I feel this goes beyond just Ethan's quote. When there are so many other quotes putting PT>OT, I think we should look for a plausible alternative interpretation to your quote that doesn't contradict all the surrounding evidence. Which I feel I've offered.


Some people might be using this to put Vader as low as possible out of hate for this character, but this isn't me. One need only look at some of my  first posts on this sight. I held Vader with ROTS Kenobi. I didn't lower Vader out of some spite filled agenda, I've adjusted my stance after seeing new evidence. I hope you genuinely consider what I've said and not just hand wave it as some Vader trolling/bait.


@Latham2000



Last edited by KingofBlades on April 1st 2020, 2:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
lorenzo.r.2nd
lorenzo.r.2nd
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Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 3 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 1st 2020, 2:02 pm
thats so ironic when we have OT ben kenobi = sheev, so now we have sheev < TPM kenobi.
KingofBlades
KingofBlades
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April 1st 2020, 2:07 pm
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:thats so ironic when we have OT ben kenobi = sheev, so now we have sheev < TPM kenobi.
GL's more recent statments retcon that old idea. Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 3 1289255181
SithSauce
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April 1st 2020, 2:21 pm
This quote about OT Jedi being old men and therefore not real Jedi/sith is retarded. Count Dooku is an old man and so are Sidious and Yoda and they are very much Jedi and sith
SithSauce
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April 1st 2020, 2:26 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:thats so ironic when we have OT ben kenobi = sheev, so now we have sheev < TPM kenobi.
GL's more recent statments retcon that old idea. Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 3 1289255181
Just like GL saying Vader is 20% less powerful than Sidious and Vader is more powerful than Luke
lorenzo.r.2nd
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April 1st 2020, 2:28 pm
@SithSauce wrote:
@KingofBlades wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:thats so ironic when we have OT ben kenobi = sheev, so now we have sheev < TPM kenobi.
GL's more recent statments retcon that old idea. Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 3 1289255181
Just like GL saying Vader is 20% less powerful than Sidious and Vader is more powerful than Luke
the first one is from 2005 and the other one has been repeated at least twice kek
SithSauce
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April 1st 2020, 2:30 pm
Sarcasm dude
lorenzo.r.2nd
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April 1st 2020, 2:30 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:
@lorenzo.r.2nd wrote:thats so ironic when we have OT ben kenobi = sheev, so now we have sheev < TPM kenobi.
GL's more recent statments retcon that old idea. Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 3 1289255181
he was younger and smarter. now he is getting older and senile. ill go for the older comments
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April 1st 2020, 2:38 pm
@SithSauce the 80% quote means nothing and the Rolling stones interview isnt about force power
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April 1st 2020, 2:42 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:@SithSauce the 80% quote means nothing and the Rolling stones interview isnt about force power
You have nothing to prove that it isnt related to force power, they are talking about bloody magic space wizards. And if it isn't referring to force power Lucas would have specified. If the 80% means nothing why was Lucas so specific about the percentage decrease?


Last edited by SithSauce on April 1st 2020, 2:50 pm; edited 2 times in total
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April 1st 2020, 2:43 pm
The thing with these quotes is that they are outdated. Lucas might have thought that Vader is sub TPM Kenobi in 1999 but that clearly was not the case later, after 2005, when he realized how ridiculous is the notion that Palpatine would keep a sub TPM Kenobi as an apprentice. In 20 years he couldn't find someone better than TPM Kenobi? After RotS,  there was a twenty IU-years gap to fill with new stories. It kinda didn't make sense for Vader to be a flunky that couldn't beat the remaining Jedi. So George had to bring Vader's power up.

Do you really think Lucas would have ever said that TPM Kenobi is 80% of Palpatine? I know is not quantifiable but talking about holistic portayal here.Do you think there was any chance that Lucas would have said that about padawan Kenobi? If Vader is suposed to be TPM Kenobi why is Filoni (who knows all his star wars from Lucas) say that Maul is in Vader realm as a way to hype him and make a point that he is above the likes of Ventress and Savage. If Vader is sub TPM Kenobi why he is portrayed as a clearly very powerfull and badass sith in TFU (Lucas was involved with TFU). You would think that the final boss of TFU is suposed to be some sub TPM Kenobi loser? Or is Shaak Ti the secret main boss of TFU? Some people will keep on trying to reconcile feats and statements without acknowledging Vader's evolution, just like they cling to never retconned by G-Canon nonsense.

Sure, we don't have a GL quote saiyng that Vader>TPM Kenobi, but i think is obvious that Lucas changed his opinion on Vader later on. 1999 Vader might have been sub TPM Kenobi, but 2010 Vader is clearly meant to be more than that. This is just my opinion anyway. I know many won't care and unless Lucas himself comes and say: Vader is more powerfull than TPM Kenobi they will continue with this nonsense.
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April 1st 2020, 2:53 pm
@SithSauce

George Lucas wrote:Well, children love power because children are the powerless. And so their fantasies all center on having power. And who’s more powerful than Darth Vader, you know? And, some, you know, will be attracted to Luke Skywalker because he’s the good guy. But ultimately, we all know that Darth Vader’s more powerful than he is.

I'd argue this isn't referring to force power. The context is about children and their fantasizing about power while being powerless. Vader is in command of countless armies and fleets while Luke is a member of some rag tag rebellion. Power isn't always used in a force power connotation and I believe it isn't here. But for the sake of argument, lets look at the implications of the above quote when viewed through the lens of combat/force power:


Well, children love power because children are the powerless. And so their fantasies all center on having power. And who’s more powerful than Darth Vader, you know? And, some, you know, will be attracted to Luke Skywalker because he’s the good guy. But ultimately, we all know that Darth Vader’s more powerful than he is.


So under your interpretation, George is asking a rhetorical question about Vader's force/combative power; with the obvious implication being that no one is more powerful than Vader.

It's not like there isn't a certain Dark Lord who George views as more powerful than Vader...oh wait

Anakin, as Skywalker, as a human being, was going to be extremely powerful. But he ended up losing his legs and an arm and became partly a robot. So a lot of his ability to use the Force, a lot of his powers, are curbed at this point, because, as a living form, there's not that much of him left. So his ability to be twice as good as the Emperor disappeared, and now he's maybe 20 percent less than him. So that isn't what the Emperor had in mind. He wanted this really super guy, but that got derailed by Obi-Wan.


My sense of the relationship is that the Emperor is much more powerful than Vader and that Vader is very much intimidated by him. Vader has dignity, but the Emperor In Jedi really has all the power."

Lawrence Kasdan and George Lucas, Star Wars The Annotated Screenplay







So out of the two ways to interpret the rolling stones quote


A) One doesn't contradict the mountain of evidence putting Luke and Vader as equals (the non force power interpretation) 


B)  One blatantly contradicts the mountain of evidence putting Luke and Vader as equals, and more ridiculously, the evidence that Darth Sidious>Vader(the force power interpretation)


I'm going with the interpretation that doesn't lead to brain dead conclusions. What about you?
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April 1st 2020, 3:56 pm
did you seriously just argue Lucas was referring to Military Power in that quote? That's willful ignorance lmfao
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April 1st 2020, 3:57 pm
It doesn't have to be. But it most certainly isn't referring to force power for the reason I mentioned
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April 1st 2020, 4:02 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:It doesn't have to be. But it most certainly isn't referring to force power for the reason I mentioned
 
Yes because when children dream about power in star wars they are clearly desiring a military fleet not the invisible force to move objects with your mind.

Don't respond, you made a fool of yourself with that argument.
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April 1st 2020, 4:05 pm
I literally just said that it doesn't have to be about military power. My main argument was that it cannot be about force power due to the reasons i explain in my post. How about you up your reading comprehension so you actually understand what someone says before you go critiquing arguments
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April 1st 2020, 4:13 pm
@KingofBlades wrote:I literally just said that it doesn't have to be about military power. My main argument was that it cannot be about force power due to the reasons i explain in my post. How about you up your reading comprehension so you actually understand what someone says before you go critiquing arguments

He's not saying Vader is more politically powerful or more force powerful than Sidious. He's saying that Vader is more powerful than Luke in the direct comparison between the primary protagonist and the antagonist. Hence the comparison to begin with. 

You bitch and moan about semantics with Latham saying that "all jedi" doesn't refer to all PT Jedi because that is too much of a "hyper-literal" interpretation of the quote, but when it comes to Vader being more powerful than Luke you resort to mentioning the emperor to fit your perception. George Lucas compares the two, Luke and Vader, and clearly determines Vader is the more "powerful" this is in reference to "children desiring power" after seeing star wars, which clearly refers to "force power." The emperor isn't mentioned here, and if you play fast and loose with semantically hyper-literal interpretations when it comes to PT Jedi, then you play fast and loose here too.

I hope everyone on the forum is able to see your bias for what it is, petty squabbling over a quote that could be even the slightest boon for Vader. It's dishonest willful ignorance.
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April 1st 2020, 4:20 pm
There's a clear and obvious implication in George's statement if we  take it as a reference to force power-- that being no one is more powerful than Vader. Or do you think Lucas just forgot the existence of one of his most important characters ever. Not that any of this really matters. Even if Vader is "more powerful" than Luke by some margin, it doens't change the fact that they are on the same tier. Vader certainly isn't "far more powerful" than Luke, unlike Qui Gon and arguably TPM Kenobi. So in the end, I could concede this point and it still wouldn't change the fact that Vader is sub Qui Gon or TPM Maul
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