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SithSauce
SithSauce
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Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 6 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 5th 2020, 10:41 am
^I'm going to add more points, I just don't want to lose this post
Latham2000
Latham2000
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Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 6 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 5th 2020, 10:50 am
Holy shit SithSauce, I appreciate your efforts but you could've just PM'd these arguments to me to help me save time. No matter, I'm only just started working on my response.
SithSauce
SithSauce
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Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 6 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 5th 2020, 11:14 am
Still adding more
The Fallen Warrior
The Fallen Warrior
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Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 6 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 5th 2020, 11:27 am
It appears new enlightened have been found. Welcome to the path of the truth my friends.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
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Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 6 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 5th 2020, 11:39 am
kob is dying slowly
Latham2000
Latham2000
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Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 6 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 5th 2020, 11:43 am
People are bashing on KoB because multiple people are dumping walls of text on him, meanwhile I'm just grumpy with how much I'm going to have to write whilst not knowing how many days I'll have to spend on this Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 6 1076326320
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
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Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 6 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 5th 2020, 11:45 am
For just £1 a week, you can protect KoB from being buffeted by walls of text and feeling overwhelmed. Will you support a KoB near you today? 
Latham2000
Latham2000
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Level Three

Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 6 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 5th 2020, 11:48 am
While the Vader camp awaits my response, the Sheevites will have do make to with an excellent idea that I've come up with Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 6 1019854026


Last edited by Latham2000 on April 5th 2020, 11:58 am; edited 1 time in total
The lord of hunger
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Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 6 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 5th 2020, 11:52 am
:>
SithSauce
SithSauce
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Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 6 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 5th 2020, 12:16 pm
Sorry guys there is this weird glitch where all of KOB quotes are gone on my post?
The Fallen Warrior
The Fallen Warrior
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Level Four

Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 6 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 5th 2020, 3:23 pm
Nah it's not a glitch. It's that KoB's arguments are so insignificant they vanished from existence.
Latham2000
Latham2000
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Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 6 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 9th 2020, 9:50 am
Guys, I've nearly finished my response, it's in the editing process so far, but I've typed so much that this site is telling me that it's too long, so I'm going to have to split my response as 2 posts.
Latham2000
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Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 6 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 9th 2020, 12:32 pm
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)

Part 1:


@KingofBlades wrote:I'd like to first point out that you've misunderstood my message to a degree. I'm not claiming TPM Kenobi is definitively above Vader or Luke with the evidence I've provided. While I think that stance is plausible, I'm perfectly willing to accept only Qui-Gon is definitively above RotJ Luke and by extension Vader. Anyways onto your claim that the quote should only apply to ANH Vader. You're missing the point. Vader isn't actually relevant here.  The wording of Lucas's statment about Jedi encompasses the entire OT, not only ANH. Let's look at the quote again.

"We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing" - George Lucas 

Star Wars Episode I Featurette: Fights 
The use of the word "never" means that Lucas is talking about all 3 movies here. So in all 3 movies, per the words of GL, we've never seen "real jedi at work". The obvious implication being that the PT Jedi fighting in the film(Qui-Gon and potentially TPM Obi Wan) are above the Jedi in the OT( ANH Ben and RotJ Luke). You've already accepted that the quote gives Qui Gon superiority over to whom it applies, you've just gotten confused on the individuals in question.  Whether or not ANH Vader is the particular incarnation of the character being mentioned here is irrelevant because this quote applies to RotJ Luke. People can then apply it to RotJ Vader by virtue his equality with Luke.

As you made it clear in your next paragraphs, I've convinced you that Lucas's statement is referring to TPM Qui-Gon, but not TPM Obi-Wan, so this fundamentally changes the topic of our discussion and I've adjust my mindset, so we're making some progress. However, after thinking more about it, I'm no longer sure that it's an implication that Qui-Gon is a better duelist than Vader because of the usage of the wording "a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing" which where we now disagree on, because you're arguing that it's an implication that Qui-Gon has supremacy over ANH/ESB/RotJ Vader as a duelist (and Luke by extension) by being faster and more energetic, but guess what? Being a "real Jedi" by virtue of being faster and more energetic than the OT fighters as a duelist, does not definitely prove that Qui-Gon is a better duelist than them, all that can definitely prove is that Qui-Gon's advantage over them is specifically about speed and agility because that's what being faster and more energetic means, which as far as Lucas is concerned, is what qualifies as being a real Jedi. I can see why he'd think that because Qui-Gon's fast and energetic fighting style is very common in the Prequel era of the Jedi, Anakin, Obi-Wan, Yoda etc. are very fast paced duelists and they use Ataru -- Vader however is limited by his cybernetics and primarily a strength orientated Djem So duelist who only uses elements of Ataru, and this is not a movies only thread, the mistake that you've made here and in a couple other places in your post is that you're not paying attention to the bigger picture, and you're limiting yourself to Lucas's vision, Lucas's vision of how he thinks real Jedi fight (i.e. flashy acrobatics) isn't mutually exclusive with the fact that fights have their own individual fighting styles thanks to the existence of the 7 forms of lightsaber combat, and we know that Lucas isn't ignorant of lightsaber forms because he edited Matthew Stover's RotS novel, which repeatedly mentions the lightsaber forms e.g. Soresu, Makashi, Djem So and Ataru (which Stover never even spells correctly), so yes, I can bring up Qui-Gon's use of Ataru because the entire reason why Qui-Gon is a much faster and more energetic duelist than Vader in the first place is because Qui-Gon is a heavily Ataru reliant duelist, no he's not exclusively Ataru based, but it's clearly his primary form, holistically speaking, and it was also Qui-Gon's use of Ataru that led to Dooku learning the ins and outs out the form itself thanks to having thousands of sparring matches with him, as the RotS novel says:

"Kenobi's Master had been Qui-Gon Jinn, Dooku's own Padawan; Dooku had fenced Qui-Gon thousands of times, and he knew every weakness of the Ataro form, with its ridiculous acrobatics." Revenge of the Sith Novel.

This is very telling of how much he uses it, and Ataru has been described like this:

"A physically demanding style, this fighting form includes acrobatic jumps, flips and weaves. It is truly the mark of a Force-skilled warrior to exhibit the amazing agility required by this form in combat." — Lightsabers: A Guide to the Weapons of the Force.

"Form IV is the most acrobatic Form, heavily emphasizing Jedi abilities to run, jump, and spin in phenomenal ways by using the Force. Masters of Form IV incorporate all the ways in which the Force helps them go beyond what is physically possible. Their lightsaber combat is astonishing to watch, filled with elaborate moves in the center of which a Jedi may be all but a blur." — Star Wars Insider #62: Fightsaber Article.

Ataru is the perfect lightsaber form for a duelist who wants to be "a much more energetic and faster version" of Darth Vader, Luke Skywalker and Ben Kenobi, who barely utilize Ataru. Qui-Gon isn't exclusively Ataru based, he also uses Makashi, and probably Djem So based on how he responded to a Juyo assault from Darth Maul, who said: "Even through his fatigue, his blows still have power. He is a large man with impressive strength." though Qui-Gon's primary form is definitely Ataru. Fightsaber says that Fightsaber says that Kenobi and Jinn were unleashing a combined Ataru assault on Maul: "Qui-Gon Jinn and Obi-Wan Kenobi's excellent use of Form VI's acrobatic maneuvers are little more than delaying tactics against the Form VII skills of Darth Maul." Not to mention, TPM script (written by Lucas) says that Maul and Jinn performed acrobatics during their exchange on Tatooine: "QUI-GON and DARTH MAUL continue their sword battle. Leaping over one another in an incredible display of acrobatics, the two warriors hear the ship flyover them a few feet off the ground. QUI-GON almost dissapears for a moment." Jinn and Maul are fast and energetic duelists, and part of that has something to do with their use of acrobatics, Qui-Gon is primarily an Ataru duelist, Maul is primarily a Juyo duelist, a form that is "based on quick strikes and unpredictable attacks" and as a master of Form VII, he is also a master of all 7 forms of lightsaber combat.


You talked about Lucas saying that "We've actually never seen real Jedi at work..." but this doesn't adequately refute my statement about the half-man, half-machine remarks being exclusively limited to ANH Vader because that remark is a commentary on the lightsaber duelist in ANH, the Featurette itself makes it clear by showing the viewers clips from ANH in conjunction with Lucas's commentary, making it even more obvious, and that's probably got something to do with the fact that Lucas is comparing the first outing of the Prequel trilogy to the first outing of the Original trilogy, not just because they're the first movies of their respective trilogies, but ANH is the original Star Wars Movie, originally titled as Star Wars if anyone wants that reminder. Lucas has made that clear 6 years later when contrasting ANH Vader and ESB Vader, the former being accepted as a "half-man, half-machine" due to ANH Vader's costume restrictions that severely hampered the actor's movements, and the latter being played by a "really good stunt guy" who is "one of the best sword fighters in England" thanks to better technology enabling ESB Vader to move around far more freely and easily, and this is consistent with Fightsaber saying that ESB Vader is far more formidable than ANH Vader, which automatically removes RotJ Vader from that limitation, and RotJ Luke by extension because he is RotJ Vader's equal. Lucas makes it so clearly that the reason why he accepted AN H Vader as a half-man, half-machine was because the actor could barely move around due to costume restrictions, doesn't say the same about ESB Vader because ESB Vader was played by a really stuntman who was one of the best swordsman in England, and in between contrasting ANH Vader and ESB Vader, he literally says "But Jedi were supposed to be quite active. So for the next one, we got a really good stunt guy in, one of the best sword fighters in England. And Mark Hamill is a good sword fighter." I hightlighted the important part in green, Lucas got a "really good stunt guy" who is "one of the best sword fighters in England" to convey that Jedi are supposed to be quite active, and you can even see this in the choreagraphy itself. 

What you're trying to argue is that Lucas's statement about Vader being half-droid, half-man in the TPM featurette applies to all 3 versions of Vader in the OT i.e. ANH Vader, ESB Vader and RotJ Vader, on the basis that the beginning of his commentary is "We've actually never seen real Jedi at work..." but even if that was Lucas was trying to say, despite the rest of the commentary suggesting otherwise, and I decided to agree with you on that for argument's sake, then we have a contradiction that only favours Vader in that it has clearly retconned and updated to being limited to ANH Vader when we put Lucas's clarifications in 2005 into perspective, which actually give a more detailed explanation comparing and contrasting ANH Vader and ESB Vader, and they're not the same. So the idea that Lucas is trying to establish the idea that Qui-Gon Jinn holds supremacy over ANH Vader.... And ESB/RotJ Vader... And RotJ Luke by extension... as a duelist just fails to withstand scrutiny. Later on in your response, you quoted another statement from Lucas calling ANH Vader a "half-man, half-machine" and guess what... You've only just given me a new idea Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 6 2266747095 , and I thank you for that because I'm going to highlight why Lucas describes ANH Vader like that:

George Lucas: In this rendition, Vader was half-man, half-machine, and Obi-Wan was pretty much an old man, so this fight was a hard one for them. It wasn’t an acrobatic, jump-around, fast fight. It was a hard fight to fight, because they’re both kind of old Jedi.

Source - A New Hope DVD Commentary (2004)

George made this statement in 2004, before he clarified these half-man, half-machine remarks to differentiate ANH Vader and ESB Vader in 2005, a year later, and this commentary is obviously about ANH. But in this source, he says that Vader is a half-man, half-machine and Kenobi is an old man, making it a hard fight for them. He says that it isn't flashy and acrobatic, or if you want his own words: "It wasn’t an acrobatic, jump-around, fast fight." making it a "hard fight hard to fight" and attributes all of to both Vader and Kenobi being "kind of old Jediwhich goes without saying. Kenobi at this point can't incorporate Ataru in his fighting style anymore because of old age and at least 17 years of rust (he fights Hett 2 years after RotS which is the only lightsaber duel he had beteen RotS and ANH if I recall correctly), largely due to prematurely aging on Tatooine and being out of practise for nearly 2 decades. Vader can't perform acrobatics either, Lucas says it's because "In this rendition, Vader was half-man, half-machine" but also because like Vader, like Kenobi, are "kind of old Jedi" which is correct, Vader at this point is 42 but he suffered from Dark Side degradation, but his cybernetics also compromised his ability to incorporate acrobatics. But suited Vader is primarily a Djem So duelist, though Lucas may consider the PT Jedi to be real Jedi on the basis that they are fast paced, energetic duelists, but that in itself is not the end all be all on who are the best duelists in the SW mythos, so you can't use that Lucas quote to argue that Qui-Gon has supremacy over OT Vader as a duelist. Next:

@KingofBlades wrote:A lot of this doesn't matter because as I explained, the quote isn't about Vader. Its about the PT Jedi fighting in the film compared to the OT Jedi. Its relevance to Vader is simply an extrapolation of the Vader Luke dynamic. I should also point out that I've never claimed the Lucas quote puts TPM Kenobi above Vader. I've only argued that the insider quote does. Bringing in Lucas and the other sources was just to show that the PT>OT dynamic was backed by more sources than just the one Ethan provided. So I never committed any of those double standards your were talking about. You have convinced me though that Lucas is referring to Qui Gon here. It being applicable to TPM Kenobi is extremely dubious. But I do think other sources like Ethan's insider quote can be argued to apply to TPM Kenobi. All in all , I'm not going to place definitive chains on any character besides Qui Gon.

Now I am still skeptical on whether Lucas's remarks in the Featurette iself is talking about Qui-Gon in skill as a duelist, because he talks about wanting a faster and more energetic version of what was in the OT era, all that really definitively is that the PT era Jedi fight at a faster pace than the OT Jedi, which makes the PT era Jedi "real Jedi at work..." by that standard, and later on in my post, I gave an in-universe explanation that explains why the OT Jedi (Kenobi, Luke and Vader) don't fight at the pace that the PT era Jedi do, and let's talk about more. Next:

@KingofBlades wrote:Nice to see we agree that the quote gives Qui Gon superiority over whomever the quote applies. Now that I've clarified that the quote applies to RotJ Luke, all this stuff about Vader improving over the course of the films doesn't matter. Vader can improve all he wants from ANH to RotJ, his equality with RotJ Luke caps him underneath Qui Gon. Resurrection isn't a big factor imo, but I'll get into that later in my post

We've already talked about this, and Vader improving over the trilogy does matter, I'm not repeating myself again. Next:

@KingofBlades wrote:Lucas is using the improved choreography as his way of conveying his belief that the PT Jedi are in their prime. So in this case yes, improved choreography does equal superiority.  Naturally this would mean that the PT jedi that fight in the films are above what was seen in the OT. While I think this can easily be applied to TPM Kenobi, I feel no need to press the point beyond applying it to Qui Gon. However, even if you disagree with the notion of TPM Kenobi>Vader, you should still be able to recognize the argument's plausibility and not hand wave it some absurd notion.

Not really. Lucas is using the improved choreagraphy to convey his belief that the PT Jedi are real Jedi because they are faster paced and more energetic duelists than the OT fighters in-universe, which doesn't automatically indicate superiority, unless if you want to say all the PT Jedi that fight in the PT are better than the OT fighters because pretty much all of them are faster and more energetic than the OT fighters, so the idea that Qui-Gon is better than the OT Jedi on the basis that Lucas says that he's a real Jedi at work for being faster paced and more energetic duelists than the OT Jedi, is an absurd argument that completely fails to withstand scrutiny.

@KingofBlades wrote:You're getting bogged down in the details and glossing over Lucas's intent. Yes there may be reasons the OT characters fought the way did, but that doesn't change the fact that Lucas is using the improved choreography as a way of conveying his belief that the PT Jedi in the films are superior to the OT Jedi. All the irrelevant details in the world can't change Lucas's obvious intent. An intent that you should have no problem accepting, since you've agreed that Qui Gon is allowed superiority over whomever the Lucas quote applies(the quote that was discussed at the beginning of this post) .

I'm getting bogged to the details because this isn't a movies only thread, you are trying to limit this to George Lucas statements and not taking the bigger picture into account because the reasons why the OT Jedi fight the way they do explains why they are not the fast paced and energetic duelists that the PT Jedi are, and George was using using choreagraphy to convey his belief that the PT Jedi are real Jedi because they fight at a faster pace and are more flashy. Some of some of the quotes that I cited directly comes from the Fightsaber article from Star Wars Insider, which not only introduced the 7 forms of lightsaber combat, but also explained where, when and which of those forms were utilized in the lightsaber battles in the 5 Star Wars movies to explain their fighting styles. As as I've proven earlier, George Lucas himself is aware of the lightsaber forms because he line edited the RotS novel, which not only repeatedly mentions them and describes their nature. Nick Gillard is also aware of the lightsaber forms too. So the fact that Lucas is using the improved choreography to convey that the PT Jedi are real Jedi because they are "a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing" i.e. faster paced and more energetic duelists, is not mutually exclusive with the in-universe reasons why the OT Jedi don't fight at the same pace that the PT Jedi do, because their fighing styles just don't work like that. So you can't use this quote to prove that Qui-Gon is better than the OT Jedi, is he faster and more energetic than them? No shit, but it's not the end all be all on who wins. Next:

@KingofBlades wrote:The various quotes aren't meant to add anything new to the conversation. Their purpose is to back the validity Ethan's insider quote and more broadly the entire PT>OT paradigm. You're also making the same mistake you made interpreting the Lucas quote discussed at the beginning of this post. Vader isn't relevant here, its the jedi Ben and Luke that matter. They're the ones that are directly inferior to the PT Jedi like Qui Gon. The reason people use this as evidence for Qui Gon >RotJ Vader is due to the fact that RotJ Luke and Vader are equals. I've said before that I'm not arguing that literally every single jedi in the PT order is above RotJ Luke. I do however, think we can apply the quote to the jedi actually fighting in the films( Qui Gon and potentially TPM Kenobi). If you want to argue that Kenobi wouldn't apply to this quote given that he's still a padawan, go ahead. I think we can both agree that the quote definitely applies to Qui Gon

Not anymore, I changed my mind the moment I read it more carefully, all what the quote definitively proves is that Qui-Gon is more flashy and acrobatic than the OT Jedi. So my quotation of Yoda saying that the Force is better than training from Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter still stands, unless if you want to throw out the quote, even though you have no reason to throw it out, because training is not the end all be all. Next:

@KingofBlades wrote:See my preceding paragraph. Everything I said applies here. Also note that Lucas likely isn't saying that being old literally makes you inferior. One must only look at this Lucas quote from 2004-2005:

George Lucas wrote:“In this rendition, Vader was half-man, half-machine, and Obi-Wan was pretty much an old man, so this fight was a hard one for them. It wasn’t an acrobatic, jump-around, fast fight. It was a hard fight to fight, because they’re both kind of old Jedi.”

Since Lucas has put Dooku's supremacy on record by this point in time, whatever age related factors that are bringing Ben and Vader down obviously aren't relevant to Dooku. You shouldn't try to throw out these quotes by using a hyper literal interpretation that goes against Lucas's intent.

I agree that RotS Anakin, RotS Obi-Wan, RotS Dooku, RotS Mace, RotS Yoda and Sidious are better the OT Jedi (not including RotJ Sidious), because that's already a well supported stance. This quote however, in itself doesn't prove Qui-Gon has supremacy over the OT Jedi as a duelist. And the quote you're citing is specifically for the lightsaber battle between Kenobi and Vader in ANH because he stated this in 2004, when the DVD commentary of ANH was released, which yeno, is about ANH, and you can quote a million statements from Lucas calling ANH Vader a "half-man, half-machine" but it doesn't change the fact we know that Lucas doesn't consider ESB/RotJ Vader to be the "half-man, half-machine" that ANH Vader was, which is because ANH Vader couldn't do much to move around due to the costume's technological restrictions hampering ANH Vader to move around, but ESB Vader didn't have that limitation.

@KingofBlades wrote:Maul's death being retconned and his subsequent growth in TCW is not proof that the intent of this statement, that Qui Gon and Maul are above Vader and Luke, has changed. Lucas is still using Maul and Qui Gon's duel as his tool for conveying his PT>OT belief. The value of these quotes aren't in a hyper literal interpretation, but in Lucas's intent. The way he views things. Thats what matters here. So this is still solid evidence that GL believes Qui Gon is above RotJ Luke and that TPM Maul is above RotJ Vader

Except this quote isn't proof that TPM Maul/Qui-Gon is above RotJ Luke/Vader because it doesn't say that, because all what it says is that Jinn and Maul were Jedi and Sith fighting when they were at the top of their game (that's what it claims, even though its intent for the Maul statement has been retconned), which makes them different from:

1. Luke Skywalker: Who had yet to become a fully fledged Jedi Knight as if RotJ, because Jinn is a Jedi Master, and Maul is a Sith Lord.

2. Ben Kenobi & Darth Vader: Who are older men, whereas Jinn isn't an older man, but apparently he's a younger man (at least as far as this quote is concerned and implies), TPM Maul is also a younger man, which is true because sources consistently state that TPM Maul is a 22 year old Zabrack.

You're arguing that this is a confirmation that TPM Maul/Qui-Gon are better than all the OT Jedi on the basis of what you think other quotes say, and I've been dealing with these quotes case by case. I do agree that TPM Maul/Qui-Gon are better than Ben Kenobi though, but not because of this quote. Next:

@KingofBlades wrote:Well let's look at the quote along with some others.

"Perhaps the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader, Executor Sedriss remained loyal to the Emperor after the death of his clone over the Rebels' Pinnacle Base." -- Handbook 3: Dark Empire


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Your quote is actually an excerpt from the final scan I provided. If you look at the context preceding the quote, it talks about Sheev's Dark side disciples, during the time of the Galactic Empire. Its obvious when reading the entire passage that Sedriss is being grouped with the dark side adepts mentioned in the text, not individuals who died decades ago. If that isn't enough I direct you to the first scan I provided where Sheev says Sedriss wasn't of the quality of a true sith apprentice, whereas he did deem Maul and Dooku worthy of the title. And even if you want to ignore the blatantly obvious context, Lucas' comments still overrule any sources that run contrary to his view on the matter.

Fair enough on on the Dark Empire Handbook, I don't own the source, so I didn't know the context, but you have convinced me that it isn't talking necessarily including TPM Maul. However, I do not agree with what you said about Resurrection's depiction of Vader vs Maul. Next:

@KingofBlades wrote:When it comes to Resurrection, I feel even the most pro Vader interpretation isn't strong enough evidence to override Qui Gon>RotJ Luke/Vader.  Vader held his own briefly but once Maul uses two blades Vader is down in three strikes.

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Vader gloating in Maul's face that his hate made him stronger and allowed him to win doesn't mean he actually is.

Vader wasn't gloating at all, he was actually right because there is the underlying theme that Vader's hatred is being tested throughout the Resurrection comic as Darth Maul and the Dark Side prophets repeatedly question Vader's commitment to the Dark Side of the Force by insinuating that he lacks hatred due to his former Jedi identity, Anakin Skywalker, whereas Maul is apparently the better candidate for being Sheev's Sith apprentice under the assumption that he is more driven by hatred than Vader. This is shoved down our throats a total of seven times:

"We have given ourselves to the Dark Side. We have pieced together the secrets of the Sith... And gathered knowledge forbidden to all but two. We deem you an unworthy apprentice for the Master because of who you once were... Anakin Skywalker." Dark Side Prophets to Darth Vader in Star Wars Tales #9: Resurrection

"We have taken a great interest in you, Lord Vader. Too much of the Jedi remains within you, a spark of Light yet to be extinguished. You are not of the bloodline of Bane. You are not fit to serve the Emperor." — Dark Side Prophets to Darth Vader in Star Wars Tales #9: Resurrection.

"Can it not? There are ways those who are no more can live again. There are ways to create an individual. To mold an individual in every way. If the hate is strong enough. We took it upon ourselves to resurrect a proper apprentice for the Master... Rather than tolerate one who is tainted." — Dark Side Prophets to Darth Vader in Star Wars Tales #9: Resurrection.

"I can see it in you still... A lone Light in the darkness you refuse to extinguish. Not like me. My darknesss... My hatred... Is unending." — Darth Maul to Darth Vader in Star Wars Tales #9: Resurrection.

"Intriguing... They are more evenly matched than we suspected. But Maul will be victorious. He is an engine of pure hate. This other... There's too much of the Light in him." — Dark Side Prophets on Darth Vader vs Darth Maul in Star Wars Tales #9: Resurrection

"You're more machine... Than man. How can a machine hate? How will you defeat me? I slew Obi-Wan's master." — Darth Maul to Darth Vader in Star Wars Tales #9: Resurrection.

"Now your Master will have an apprentice worthy of the Sith. No Jedi pyre for you, Skywalker. Your hate was not nearly enough." — Darth Maul to Darth Vader in Star Wars Tales #9: Resurrection.

Both Maul and the Dark Side prophets repeatedly mock Vader under the assumption that because Vader was once Anakin Skywalker, a Jedi Knight, he lacks the power source that is Darth Maul's driving force: Pure, unadulterated hatred. And look at the end result:

Darth Maul: GAHH! What... What could you hate enough... To destroy me?

Darth Vader: Myself.

Source
Star Wars Tales #9: Resurrection.

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And just how did the Dark Side prophets react to Vader's victory?

Dark Side Prophets: This... This is not possible. We were so certain.

Source
Star Wars Tales #9: Resurrection.

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Their very own words are an expression of shock, because earlier in the comic, they claimed that Maul was going to come out victorious by virtue of being purely immersed in hatred, whereas Vader lacked that hatred due to retaining too much of the Light Side of the Force, if you want their own words, they said: "But Maul will be victorious. He is an engine of pure hate. This other... There's too much of the Light in him." --> which speaks for itself...... And they were proven wrong at the end result, saying "This... This is not possible. We were so certain." --> virtually validating Vader's victory being a result of superior hatred,  which is the equivalent of "OH MY GOD THIS IS BULLSHIT! WHAT THE FUCK WE REALLY THOUGHT OUR BOY MAUL WAS GOING TO WIN!!" and this does indicate that Vader was more powerful because both Vader and Maul are Sith Lords trained and immersed in the Dark Side of the Force under the tutelage of Darth Sidious, the most powerful Sith of all time (at least in the Banite line, note that this is not bait for Sidious vs Ancient Sith debates), Maul according to other sources, has been described as:

"... trained mercilessly in all forms of the Sith arts, becoming the living embodiment of evil..."

"... the embodiment of Dark Side nefariousness..."

"... a creature of pure evil..."

"... A weapon forged by the hateful energies of the Dark Side..."

"... driven by his messianic hatred for and disdain of the Jedi Knights..."

Meanwhile Vader has described similarly:

"Utterly ruthless, his Sith powers made him virtually invincible.

"His devotion to the Emperor and mastery of the Dark Side gives him more power than any single individual in the galaxy except for the Emperor himself.

"... the embodiment of the Dark Side."

"... Is the embodiment of all evil."

Vader demonstrated supremacy over Maul in sheer magnitude of their respective hatred, which is not only their power source, but it is also what the Dark Side is about:

Tyranus: Impossible? The task is only impossible because you have deemed it so. You must connect with your hatred! Focus on your power, building. Do not think of anyone or anything else! That's it, your anger is your strength.

Opress: I hate you!

Tyranus: Good.


Sheev: I can feel your anger. It gives you focus, makes you stronger.

Sheev: Use your aggressive feelings boy, let the hate flow through you...

The hate is swelling in you now. Use it, I am unarmed, strike me down with it, give into your anger... 

Your hate has made you powerful.



"Don't fear what you're feeling, Anakin, use it!" he barked in Palpatine's voice. "Call upon your fury. Focus it, and he cannot stand against you. Rage is your weapon. Strike now! Strike! Kill him!" — Revenge of the Sith Novel.

"Behind him, he heard Chancellor Palpatine calling something, trying to be heard over the crackle and hum of the lightsabers. “Use your aggressive feelings, Anakin! Call on your rage. Focus it, or you don’t stand a chance against him.” — Revenge of the Sith Junior Novel.

"The Sith have some truly terrifying powers. To use them, they must draw energy from the Dark Side. They encourage destructive emotions like anger and hatred within themselves in order to boost their Dark Side powers.

[....]

Sidious's training methods were often harsh and unforgiving, but as a result Darth Maul became a strong and relentless fighter. He harnessed powerful emotions, such as anger and hatred, to gain strength from the Dark Side." — Star Wars Sith Wars.

"Like the Jedi, the Sith are able to sense and use the Force. The Sith's Force training, however varies greatly from that of the Jedi. They use the Dark Side of the Force and gain their power from raw emotions such as anger and hatred." — Star Wars Jedi Battles.

So the fact that this statement came from Vader is not an indication of gloating, not only because Vader has no reason to lie, but because Maul asks Vader "What... What could you hate enough... To destroy me?" i.e. what source of hatred enabled him to achieve victory over Maul, who previously believed his own hatred would lead him to emerging victorious, and Vader's answer is "Myself" which in itself is proven by Vader's actions i.e. he literally stabbed himself in the gut whilst stabbing Maul at the same time:

"Vader, more machine than man, drives his lightsaber through his own gut in order to impale the Dark Lord behind him. Maul, who believes the depth of his hatred rightly entitles him to the station of a Sith apprentice, asks before dying, "What... What could you hate enough to destroy me?" Vader answers simply, "Myself." — Star Wars Insider #83.

So no, Vader was not gloating. I also disagree with your claim that Vader "briefly" held his own, but we'll talk about that later. Next:

@KingofBlades wrote:For all intents and purposes he had basically lost the fight and cheap shotted his way to victory.

Vader lost the swordplay aspect of the fight, but technical skill is not what automatically grants the fighter the victory in the SW mythos because it's not the only factor in fights. Yes Maul was more skilled than Vader in the art of the duel, Maul staggered Vader with a kick at the start of the duel. Then made him grunt by punching him in the helmet. Then he pierced Vader's lightsaber guard by slashing his cybernetic abdomen with enough harm to make Vader scream and also take a moment to check out his injury before resuming their duel. Then Maul staggered Vader again with another punch, and finally brought him to his knees by slamming one of his lightsaber hilts to his helemet. Maul achieved this thanks to a combination of superior technical skill, superior agility and also mastery of Teras Kasi. But Vader did not just "briefly" hold his own, they had a lightsaber battle that went on 15 pages, while the time of comic fights is near impossible to quantify, it could easily be a couple of minutes because comic fights tend to oversimplify duels due to limitations in time and resources. Maul and Vader are described by Insider 83 as "The two Dark Lords duel furiously in the planet's molten caverns." meaning that they were fuelled by anger and hatred, raw emotions that fuel the Dark Side. Not to mention, the prophets had this to say:

Dark Side Prophets: Intriguing... They are more evenly matched than we suspected. But Maul will be victorious. He is an engine of pure hate. This other... There's too much light in him.

Source — Star Wars Tales #9: Resurrection.

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Despite the Dark Side prophets repeatedly shit talking and mocking Vader, and their zealous belief that Maul was Vader's superior, which they probably gambled their lives on, these clowns expressed surprise while watching Maul and Vader fight to the death, saying that Maul and Vader were more evenly matched then they suspected i.e. Vader gave Maul a better fight than they expected, but still claimed that Maul would achieve victory under their belief that Maul was a fully committed Dark Side wielder, whereas Vader wasn't a fully committed Dark Side wielder, and yet they were proven wrong by their own addmision later on. But guess what happened a few pages later...

Source — Star Wars Tales #9: Resurrection.

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Maul tries to kick Vader, but is unsuccessful because Vader seemingly dodges the kick, proceeds to grabbing Maul's leg, pushing it back and slicing Maul's saberstaff in two, which is nothing to scoff at. Granted, Maul knocks Vader down a page later whilst using Jar Kai and martial arts, but this doesn't change what happened earlier: Vader broke Maul's weapon and forced him to use Jar Kai instead. While Maul's saberstaff is an elongated weapon that make it easier to hit than a single bladed lightsaber, it's Maul's fault that he failed to land a successful kick on Vader and fail to protect his own weapon from being cut in half, he has no excuse here. Moreover, Maul also expresses surprise at how Vader coped with him:

Darth Maul: Surprising, Jedi. You stand your ground against me. I wonder... Are you as confident... When you can't depend... The Ground beneath you? You land with grace Jedi

Source — Star Wars Tales #9: Resurrection.
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While clashing blades with Vader, Maul uses one end of his blade to cut the platform's ropes support, leaps over Vader, but to Maul's surprise, Vader is able to turn around and stand still on the platform, rather than falling off, which is also probably referring to how well Vader handled Maul's speed, and when Maul cuts off the platform's rope support, Maul says Vader lands with face which sounds like Maul is willing to admit when his opponent is doing well against him. This says a lot about Maul's prominent arrogance because notice how he abruptly changes his attitude from mocking Vader to virtually complimenting Vader, which suggests that Maul himself considered Vader a worthy opponent, and Vader proves this later on by almost immediately shrugging off getting his lightsaber guard pierced by Maul, as well as dodging Maul's kick (likely an incorporation of Teras Kasi) and slicing the Zabrack's saberstaff in two, forcing him to use Jar Kai instead.

Next:

@KingofBlades wrote: Oh and given that this is supposed to be the "brawl to settle it all" it would make more sense for this to refer to RotJ Vader rather than ANH Vader. Using a version of Vader, who per your admission is inferior to his RotJ incarnation, defeats the entire purpose of the comic's existence.

Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 6 Picture1

First and foremost, no it does not actually defeat the purpose of the the comic at all nothing was said anything about choosing prime Vader and prime Maul, when Lucasfilm published the comics with Dark Horse, they said that it was released for the sake of answering Maul vs Vader debates, that's it, that doesn't mean that they're automatically choosing prime Vader vs prime Maul because they never said about choosing Maul and Vader in their respective primes, so ANH Vader was picked out of the various versions of Vader, the fact that Lucasfilm answered fan queries with a ANH Vader vs TPM Maul comic as opposed to RotJ Vader still gives us an answer, it still gives us something to work with, it is still better than ignoring fan queries, it is still shows how Vader and Maul compare in some certain way, so you cannot argue that the notion that Maul fought a pre prime Vader defeats the purpose of the comic. It might not satisfy everyone on the forums, but guess what? You can't please everyone, Lucasfilm has never been able to please everyone e.g. Prequel trilogy, they've never been perfect with fan service e.g. Sequel trilogy and Star Wars: Rebels. So no, it is not RotJ Vader, and the most prominent source speaking about Vader's growth between ANH and ESB is Fightsaber, which was published a year after this comic was published. The comic itself takes place shortly before ANH because of the explicit mentions of the Death Star plans:

Darth Vader: ... I will hold you personally responsible for any incompetence. If the information obtained by our informants is correct, the Rebels have arranged to pass the stolen plans to another courier on this site. The plans contain schematics for the Emperor's death star, the weapon we will use to cursh this insurrection. I want either those plans...

Source — Star Wars Tales #9: Resurrection.
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Sheev: There's much to do, Lord Vader. The plans in the hands of the rebels must be found. I will not have my death star at risk. Come...

Source — Star Wars Tales #9: Resurrection.
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Ron Marz: I tended to want to write the established characters. That made it more of a chore to fit my stories into the established continuity, since the adventures of Luke and Han and Leia had been mined so thoroughly in previous comics and novels. It’s a lot easier to tell tales about the “third Stormtrooper from the left” rather than the icon characters. But, for me at least, not quite as much fun.

I was especially drawn to the villains, Vader and Maul in particular. My favorite jobs were the Darth Maul mini with Jan Duursema, the Darth Vader story with Claudio Castellini from Star Wars Tales, and the Vader vs. Maul slugfest with Rick Leonardi and Terry Austin from Star Wars Tales. Those last two are “non-canon” stories by virtue of appearing in Star Wars Tales, but I wrote them so they could easily fit into the existing continuity. Ironically, probably one of the few times in my career that I’ve been overly concerned with continuity.

Source
Ron Marz Website

Pablo Hidalgo: The Tales story ("Resurrection" published in Issue #9) happens much later. Darth Vader is searching for the Rebels who stole the Death Star plans, which suggests that these events take place just before the events of A New Hope, albeit in a parallel reality.

Source — Star Wars Insider 85.

So no, it is not RotJ Vader, it's ANH Vader, and the comic itself has answered fan queries with a fight between TPM Maul and ANH Vader. Heck, the argument that you're using also horrifically backfires on everyone who uses this argument because by that same line of thought, the Maul that appears in the comic itself is SoD Maul, because showing us a fight between TPM Maul vs ANH Vader, doesn't answer the question of how Maul and Vader compare at their primes, because TPM Maul and ANH Vader are both pre-prime, so I guess it's actually SoD Maul vs RotJ Vader, as opposed to TPM Maul vs ANH Vader, right? Yeah no, begone with that argument, it's TPM Maul vs ANH Vader and arguing otherwise is just absolutely ridiculous, the timeline is ANH and it is ANH Vader, no ifs and buts are going to change that. And it's not like the comic itself has aged that well to be honest, story wise, because the comic itself was published under the subtext that Maul died from being cut in half by Kenobi in TPM, which is implicitly told because the resurrected Maul is wearing the exact same clothing as TPM Maul, has the personality of TPM Maul (e.g. "There is no pain where strength lies" and the "Never break a fall" anecdote, which is from Episode 1 Journal: Darth Maul), the prophets himself act like he died in TPM by complaining about how it's such a shame that he was killed by a Jedi all these years ago, and decided to resurrect him give Sidious a proper apprentice. Hmm... Not sure how that holds up when remembering that TCW exists in both Legends and Canon because you know... Maul didn't actually die in TPM, the dude was literally too angry to die, came back 12 years later and creates massive hassle for Sidious, building his own army that was concerning Sidious enough to deem Maul a threat to his own grand plan, then confronts Maul and his brother Savage, murders Savage, kicks Maul's ass, takes him as a hostage, tortures him to reveal his own assets, but Maul escapes, then Sidious has to deal with eliminating Talzin as well, who is also a pain in the ass, Sidious finally achieves that, but Maul escapes. So it's just really weird that the prophets want to recreate Maul in the form of his TPM self, thinking that Sidious would like that, not to mention at the end of the comic, it's suggested that Sidious was involved in this, which makes it even more weird, why the hell would the prophets and/or Sidious want to recreate this guy? And what makes the subtext even more painfully obvious is that before Maul's saberstaff gets sliced in two, they have these lines of dialogue:
Darth Maul: How will you defeat me? I slew Obi-Wan's master!

Darth Vader: And Obi-Wan... Slew you!


Source — Star Wars Tales #9: Resurrection.
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Maul boasts about killing Qui-Gon, Vader in response insults Maul for getting killed by Obi-Wan, while this is indeed still true because Maul got three shotted by Kenobi on Tatooine, Vader doesn't know that, but he does know that Maul got cut in half by Kenobi on Naboo, so he's obviously referring to Maul's pre-retconned death, and it's really weird that there's not a single mention of Maul's return during TCW - the reason for that is because the comic itself predates TCW's retcons. Note that I'm not saying that the comic itself is invalid on the basis of outdated subtext, or that TCW defeats the purpose of its existence because it doesn't actually affect how Vader and Maul compare in prowess, but this outdated subtext is not any different than the argument that a pre-prime Vader fought Maul defeats the purpose of the comic's existence (hint: it doesn't!), and that it therefore must be RotJ Vader. That argument is trash and belongs in the trash can.


Next:
@KingofBlades wrote: So RotJ vader holding his own over tpm maul briefly doesn't prove anything. Jinn can still be more powerful than him under this paradigm.

Correction: ANH Vader holding his own against TPM Maul for a lengthy duel does prove something. Not to mention, Vader broke Maul's saberstaff, whereas Qui-Gon didn't, and TPM Kenobi needed to be ultra rage amped to break Maul's saberstaff, and even in that instance Maul was caught off guard by Kenobi's rage fuelled assault because his tactics and instincts were accustomed to the tempo of a standard TPM Kenobi.

@KingofBlades wrote:Either way, whatever you think this comic tells you, Lucas's statements should take precedence anyways. If you think Resurrection implies Vader is above Qui Gon, Lucas thinking Qui Gon >RotJ Luke while also believing Vader and Luke are equal(with Luke being given a slight edge) per the RotJ script is enough to overrule whatever you got out of Resurrection.

I've already addressed this. Qui-Gon can be a faster and more energetic orientated duelist than Luke/Vader and it still doesn't indicate superiority because the in-universe explanations for why Luke and Vader don't fight like the PT era Jedi are not mutually exclusive with Lucas's description of the choreagraphy of the PT era Jedi.

The next post will be part 2.


Last edited by Latham2000 on May 7th 2020, 11:59 am; edited 18 times in total
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Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 6 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 9th 2020, 12:33 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)

Part 2:


@KingofBlades wrote:While I agree this quote implies Vader and Maul are in the same ballpark, there's nothing indicating Lucas endorses this opinion. Filoni is allowed to have his own opinions. He isn't some Lucas clone. He's actually gone on record saying he's "a fan" like us and because of this he has his own opinions separate from what Lucas tells him.

“That’s just me talking too, that’s not anything George said to me, because I’m a fan just like you.”

Where and when does he say that? I've looked for this online and I can't find it, and haven't told me where and when he said it. Filoni obviously isn't a Lucas clone, no one is, but he doesn't need to be a Lucas clone to be a reliable source of information because he spent at least 4 years working with Lucas during the creative process and behind the scenes of TCW. Not to mention, Filoni is "almost like a son" to Lucas:



^ Go to 2:03.

Next:

@KingofBlades wrote:If this isn't enough, we have an IGN interview where Filoni talks about going back and forth with George on what should happen to Grievous in an episode of TCW:

IGN: In “Shadow Warrior,” you had the unlikely but fascinating battle of the Gungans versus Grievous. It’s in the rain, it’s really intense… Was that a lot of fun to approach that and see how that would play out?

Filoni: Yeah, because that was a huge challenge. I think I’ve said before how I went back and forth on that one with George several times saying, “Wow, if we do this to Grievous, I think that’s going to be a big, big loss for him. His credibility’s going to go down.” You know, we argued about it back and forth several times trying to figure out was that going to be the best move. George was always pretty resolute that it was going to be fine, and he talked with me through how we could achieve it. And I thought, “Well, if we’re going to take him out, then we have to lose something pretty big on the good guys’ side to make the sacrifice seem pretty meaningful.” So we had to take out Tarpals, which is pretty sad actually

Because Filoni has a mind of his own and has the capability to hold opinions not held by Lucas, the Filoni quote you provided doesn't have the authority to overrule statements coming directly from GL that put Qui Gon/TPM Maul above Vader.

Great, all this proves is that Filoni and Lucas had little disagreements about Grievous losing to gungans behind the scenes, show me where Filoni says that he and George disagree with how Maul and Vader compare. And the fact that Grievous loses to a bunch of gungans is really trivial compared to how Vader and Maul, two of the most prominent Sith in the saga, compare as warriors. And for the last time, the fact that Lucas describes Qui-Gon and Maul as  "a much more energetic and faster version of" of Ben Kenobi, Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker isn't an automatic indication of superiority, all it indicates that they are more flashy, flamboyant and fast paced duelists the OT Jedi and nothing more, and you can't argue with the in-universe reasons for why the OT era Jedi fight the way they do, especially when these reasons don't contradict the Lucas quotes.

@KingofBlades wrote:You're right that George doesn't want Vader diminished. But all that means is he doesn't want Vader taking unnecessary Ls in whatever medium he's portrayed in. Why do you think Filoni is reluctant to make a Vader Maul fight happen? He doesn't think the outcome of that match-up would look good for Vader. So he's honoring Lucas's desire to not diminish Vader by not making a Vader Maul fight occur. That doesn't demonstrate Vader and Maul are in the same ball park like you're impying. To make the meaning of Filoni's words more clear, this is what basically happened.

Q: Maul Vs Vader coming soon right??
Filoni: haha well Lucas doesn't like me making Vader look bad so...idk. you never know.

Definitely not a ringing endorsement for Vader on how he stacks up with Maul.

That is not what Filoni meant for fuck sake, you're completely dancing around the issue. Let's look at the question again:

IGN: So let me ask a bit about Maul. You’ve spoken about the fact that your first thoughts about bringing him back went to a very obvious, cool, fanboy place to go, which is “Vader and Maul can fight!” before you went another direction. In fact, they actually never met here, but Maul did get away.

IGN is asking Filoni about the Vader vs Maul fight that he pitched, but scrapped in the end result. In response, Filoni says that George doesn't want Vader diminished in the sense that he wants Vader to be the the top dog, not because Filoni thinks Vader would take an "unnecessary L" in a fight with Maul where Filoni "he doesn't think the outcome of that match-up would look goof for Vader" because the actual reason why Filoni scrapped the Vader vs Maul fight is because it would've been too much for the season 2 finale, making it overstuffed because the season 2 finale was already going to have Vader vs Ahsoka, which in itself was going to be a more emotionally resonating duel for the story telling because of the history and unique relationship that Vader and Ahsoka have, which was enough for the season 2 finale. Adding Vader vs Maul before that duel was deemed unnecessary, and guess what, Maul was going to die in that fight with Vader, so if Filoni hadn't scrapped that idea, we would've seen Maul die in a fight with Vader, and it is very nicely complimented by Filoni's remarks about Lucas not wanting Vader to be diminished:

Dave Filoni: Originally Maul perished in the season two finale where he returned. It was a one-off appearance. So originally in that episode you were gonna get Vader fighting Maul, Vader would have killed Maul, and then fought Ahsoka. It just became unwieldy. There were too many storylines, and there isn't enough emotional material between Vader and Maul. It's more of a fan fiction fun thought that they fought. The emotional drama was really between Vader and Ahsoka. So we decided to let Maul live.

Source — How The Star Wars Rebels Season 2 Finale Originally Handled Darth Maul

Vader vs Maul was going to happen, but was scrapped, not because Filoni thought Vader was going to be diminished by taking an L via losing against Maul, given that Maul was confirmed to going to take an L by dying at Vader's hand, but because it was deemed as bad story telling, which isn't mutually exclusive with Filoni's statement that George was pretty adamant with not wanting Vader to be diminished, but actually echoes it.

Next:
@KingofBlades wrote:Regardless, there's a distinction that should be made between Filoni's  personal view on Maul and Vader and Lucas's request to not diminish Vader. The latter is a request that Filoni tries to honor no matter what direction Disney decides to go in respect to Vader's power. Lucas didn't tell Filoni to make Vader "hard to top" like you claim. Filoni's belief that Vader is hard to top is independent of Lucas' request. And since I showed earlier why Filoni can have differing views from Lucas, you can't argue "Oh Lucas should agree with his opinion anyways".

What would be classified as "diminishing' Vader under Disney or Filoni's view of Vader would not be something Lucas himself thinks is diminishing to Vader. In the context of our debate, Lucas' view on what diminishes Vader is what matters here, not Filoni's since Disney has gone in a different direction when it comes to how Vader is portrayed. Qui Gon can be below Dooku and Maul while also being above Vader without diminishing Vader in the eyes of Lucas. What Lucas would think is diminishing of Vader would be if you were to pit him against Qui Gon, since Lucas does in fact hold Qui Gon above.There's no need for all that stuff about Jinn or Kenobi needing to be tier 9s in order for this scaling to function

For the last time, Lucas does not say Vader is inferior to Qui-Gon, I'm tired of his statements being misrepresented. There is no distinction to be made because Maul was going die in the scrapped Vader vs Maul fight, which actually compliments Filoni's statement about Lucas's request to not wanting Vader diminished. Filoni's belief that Vader is hard to top is largely due to Lucas not wanting Vader diminished, and all that you've proven is that Filoni and Lucas have different views on Grievous losing to gungans, which is irrelevant to Vader unless if Filoni explicitly says they have a different vision for Vader because Filoni himself has said that his line of thought is largely influenced by Lucas, and he tries to think like Lucas:

Dave Filoni: I've shown him Rebels, he's seen it, and he knows that I followed the lessons I was taught as a good Jedi I should, but I'm expanding certain things that I wanted to do, but nothing I feel is out of port with what he would have done, every decision I made on Clone Wars I did, any interview I did, I said "Is this something I would say or do if George was here in the room?" because I so greatly respect that it's his universe and even to this day as I go forward doing things I always ask myself is that something he'd really want? You know the fans want all kinds of things, you can't get caught up in that I'll tell you why: It's because Star Wars is so strong after so many years and people love so many different aspects of it you have to be careful what you're serving so you have to always serve the story of Star Wars and characters of Star Wars and I would say for the Prequel kids who love their Prequel movies they're very hopeful now about all the things they love about it and I love them too and they get a lot of flak, the Prequels, whatever I don't care. There's some of the most exciting moments in those films and I've always been a big supporter of them and I'm still you know, I treat Rebels the same way I did Clone Wars which is if it's something I bring it in. So there's still stuff from the EU, what was called the EU is now called Legends that appears in Rebels from time to time the same way that it appeared from time to time in Clone Wars, it's just how we tell the stories and George was always okay with that, so I continue.

^^(Go to 1:20)^^

Every time Filoni says something in interviews and every decision he made for TCW and SWR, he would think before he speak to consider whether he would still say it if Lucas was present, you cited Filoni saying that he and Lucas had disagreements with each other behind the scenes with Grievous vs Gungans before the episode has been settled, which has a completely different context than what Filoni's decisions for TCW/SWR and his statements in interviews, so the worst case scenario for Vader is that you've given a an exception to Filoni's Lucas esque line of thought. Filoni worked with Lucas for at least 4 years, got to know Lucas really well behind the scenes to the point Filoni was "almost like a son" to Lucas, so I think it's safe to say he'd have a better grasp of Lucas's vision better than anyone here.

Next:

@KingofBlades wrote:You can't argue the quote is only referring to speed and pace when power is explicitly mentioned. Superior power doesn't have to be shown through telekinetic attacks. For Lucas, he's showing it through the increased speed you were talking about along with the superior choreography. Can you genuinely read that quote and believe the person who wrote it doesn't think the PT Jedi are superior to OT Jedi? The intent is plain as day.

I can because power, like many words, can mean different things depending on the context, and power doesn't have to exclusively mean strength in the Force, and power in the context of Maul vs Qui-Gon, can be deduced as refering to the speed and energetic pace they fought with because that's literally what their duel was about, it wasn't a Force. Lucas said that Vader is more powerful than Luke in that 1999 interview, but you argeud that he's not talking about their respective strength in the Force. Why? Because power can mean many things as you've admitted. For Lucas, he's showing that the superior choreography that the PT era Jedi are literally fighting at a faster and more energetic pace than the OT era Jedi, but that's not mutually exclusive with the in-universe reasons for why the OT era Jedi don't have the acrobatic, flamboyant and flashy fighting styles that the PT era Jedi do, you can't argue with these in-universe reasons when Lucas himself himself line edited a novel repeatedly mentioning lightsaber forms, virtually complimenting their existence, Gillard himself also isn't ignorant but actually claimed that he was involved in the process of the creation of the lightsaber forms. I've never said the PT Jedi aren't superior to the OT Jedi, the PT titans are definitely better duelists than the OT Jedi (Ben Kenobi, Darth Vader and Luke Skywalker), but Qui-Gon just doesn't enjoy that supremacy. Can you genuinely read the quote and believe the person who wrote it has the exact same line of thought that people like us i.e. Star Wars debaters on forums, have? If TPM Maul was far more powerful than the OT Jedi by virtue of being Qui-Gon's superior, who you think is far stronger in the Force than RotJ Luke, who you also believe is equally as strong in the Force as RotJ Vader, then Maul should've speed blitzed Vader in the Resurrection comic because not only is Maul already faster than Vader without using either of them using augmentation thanks to Vader's cybernetics, being far stronger in the Force than Vader should've enabled him to blitz him because their augmented speed wouldn't be comparable either, and Maul was fighting Vader to the death for the Sith legacy, I doubt Maul spent the entire duel toying with Vader, I don't think he would've deliberately held back his Force reserves given that his opponent was in the position of being Sheev's apprentice, and Maul respects Sheev so much he would actually commmit suicide if Sheev told him to:

"He knew that he had come originally from a world called Iridonia, but knowing that was like knowing that the atoms composing his body had originally been born in the primordial galactic furnaces that had forged the stars. The knowledge was interesting in a remote, academic way, but no more than that. He had no interest whatsoever in learning any more about his past or his homeworld. As far as he was concerned, his life began with Lord Sidious. And if his master ordered an end to that life, Maul would accept that judgment with no argument." — Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter.

But yeah Maul, who in his TPM self has no qualms having his life ended by Palpatine, totally decided to toy with Vader by holding back his Force reserves even though they were described as "the two Dark Lords duel furiously in the panet's molton caverns" in "a duel to the death" over being Sheev's right hand man.

Next:

@KingofBlades wrote:1. Lucas' quotes show his belief that the PT Jedi(Qui-Gon) are superior to the OT Jedi. Vader isn't directly relevant for most of the quotes I provided, though one does make a comparison between Maul and Vader, which put Vader below Maul. To reiterate an earlier point; how Vader compares to the PT jedi is simply an extrapolation of the Vader Luke dynamic. Doing your best rendition of an Olympic gymnast in order to escape Lucas' blatant intent is disingenuous .

2.Ethan's source--among others--provides further support to a stance that is already backed by Lucas himself,

3. I've never argued that TPM Kenobi is definitively above RotJ Luke/Vader like you've been claiming I have. While I personally find the evidence compelling enough for such a stance, I recognize that the evidence isn't conclusive enough for some. I do however view Qui-Gon>RotJ Luke/Vader as a bedrock stance that we should all be able to agree on and anchor all future discussion around this point.

We've already been through this, so I'll just say I strongly disagree with you rather than repeating myself, though at least we agree that Lucas's quote in TPM featurette is not a confirmation that Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi.


Last edited by Latham2000 on April 10th 2020, 8:58 am; edited 1 time in total
The lord of hunger
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April 9th 2020, 1:11 pm
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Ziggy
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April 10th 2020, 2:01 pm
Switch B team out for 3 TPM Kenobi's and we have an even fight
The Reborn Emperor
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April 11th 2020, 2:53 am
Why are we trying to apply Lucas’ quote to the EU when he’s literally talking about “faster choreography on screen = better”? Literally what Gillard says as well. On the other hand, Qui-Gon and Maul do have a quote binding them above ROTJ Vader as force users and duelists. Personally, I don’t think this applies to Kenobi though.
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April 11th 2020, 4:13 am
Meatpants wrote:Why are we trying to apply Lucas’ quote to the EU when he’s literally talking about “faster choreography on screen = better”?  Literally what Gillard says as well. On the other hand, Qui-Gon and Maul do have a quote binding them above ROTJ Vader as force users and duelists. Personally, I don’t think this applies to Kenobi though.
What quote exactly?
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April 11th 2020, 5:50 am
@TheLordofhunger he is talking about the quote Ethan provided
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April 11th 2020, 5:30 pm
@Ziggy wrote:Switch B team out for 3 TPM Kenobi's and we have an even fight

Honestly could have an argument lol
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April 11th 2020, 5:43 pm
"Binding them above Vader"

"Binding"

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