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Seturna
Seturna
Level One
Level One

Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 5 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 3rd 2020, 10:16 am
Not if there’s an good case for vader being below the ”padawan”
The Fallen Warrior
The Fallen Warrior
Level Four
Level Four

Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 5 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 3rd 2020, 10:27 am
@Seturna wrote:Not if there’s an good case for vader being below the ”padawan”

And... you happen to think this is a good case?

just FYI, I am working on that exact blog in detail so look forward to that, just curious on now close-minded you are to new ideas?
Seturna
Seturna
Level One
Level One

Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 5 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 3rd 2020, 10:29 am
> Korriban wrote:
@Seturna wrote:Not if there’s an good case for vader being below the ”padawan”

And... you happen to think this is a good case?

just FYI, I am working on that exact blog in detail so look forward to that, just curious on now close-minded you are to new ideas?

I haven’t even seen the case, so i wouldn’t know


And im pretty close minded to new ideas.
The Fallen Warrior
The Fallen Warrior
Level Four
Level Four

Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 5 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 3rd 2020, 10:32 am
Hah, nice wit. Good catch.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level Two
Level Two

Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 5 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 3rd 2020, 11:47 am
@Seturna wrote:As i said to LoH some days ago.

If he is so loWbAllEd, then why not make an huge blog explaining why vader isn’t sub trebor or ”random padawans”? And explain why vader is at the top
And as I told you before, in this place it is very difficult to make people believe that a character like Vader can be so strong especially because most of them will continue to take the voice of Lucas as the definitive proof of God even if the The author himself has contradicted himself many times, so it doesn't matter how many blogs you make about Lord Vader,it will never change the views some users have in here since its sad to see the character become a living meme.
The Reborn Emperor
The Reborn Emperor
Moderator | Champion of Darkness
Moderator | Champion of Darkness

Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 5 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 3rd 2020, 12:28 pm
No, it's because nobody knows how to truly debate Vader. Some here could probably do it if they were so inclined.
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level Two
Level Two

Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 5 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 3rd 2020, 12:38 pm
Meatpants wrote:No, it's because nobody knows how to truly debate Vader. Some here could probably do it if they were so inclined.
 how does anyone in here doesnt debate vader properly? 

ISV and some others dew it quite well


Last edited by The lord of hunger on April 3rd 2020, 12:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
SithSauce
SithSauce
Level One
Level One

Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 5 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 3rd 2020, 12:51 pm
Azronger could too but I think he's mostly given up ( i don't blame him). Looking forward to Latham's post though
The lord of hunger
The lord of hunger
Level Two
Level Two

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April 3rd 2020, 12:52 pm
@SithSauce wrote:Azronger could too but I think he's mostly given up ( i don't blame him). Looking forward to Latham's post though
why did az gived up?
Latham2000
Latham2000
Level Three
Level Three

Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 5 Empty Re: Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team

April 3rd 2020, 1:28 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@KingofBlades Fair enough on the Figurines collection quote, the image that you showed me is more clear on that the main text and annotation, so I will drop that argument. I still disagree with the rest of your arguments for why Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi:


@KingofBlades wrote:So what, we're left with two sources that contradict one another? Maybe 1-1 is enough for you to maintain your belief that Vader is >TPM Maul. Fortuantely -- or unfortunately for some -- there are other sources that serve as our tie breaker:

"We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing" - George Lucas 

Star Wars Episode I Featurette: Fights 

This is not a confirmation that Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi for 2 reasons. First and foremost, George Lucas's remarks are referring to the choreagraphy of the action scenes in ANH, because whilst he is making those remarks, the Featurette itself is showing the viewer Ben Kenobi giving Luke his father's lightsaber, Darth Vader's duel with Ben Kenobi on the Death Star, as well as Luke Skywalker training blaster bold deflection under the tutelage of old Ben Kenobi, all of these scenes are from ANH, the first movie of the the Original Trilogy, TPM itself is the first movie of the Prequel trilogy, so it's likely that the featurette itself was giving the viewers a reminder a comparison of how the previous trilogy's first outing turned out with the action scenes because TPM is the first outing of the Prequel trilogy, and there's no emphasis on the action in ESB and RotJ. Lucas's specific remark about Vader being "half-droid, half-man" is specifically about ANH Vader and we know that it is exclusively limited to ANH Vader, because he clarifies this 6 years later, whilst the entire PT has been finished and released to the public, in this interview:

Question: Just how restrictive was that costume?

George Lucas: He couldn’t move at all, really. We had to keep modifying the suit so people could move in it. By the time we got to the first light-saber battle, we realized we weren’t going to be able to do much. And so I accepted it was an old man vs. a half-man, half-machine. But Jedi were supposed to be quite active. So for the next one, we got a really good stunt guy in, one of the best sword fighters in England. And Mark Hamill is a good sword fighter. For the final film, Hayden [Christensen] and Obi-Wan – I mean Ewan – took it very seriously; they trained for months. Those swords are carbon fiber: We went through lots of them, because they were hitting so hard, they would get bent. It’s like learning to dance, only if you make a mistake, you really get hurt.

Source -- George Lucas and the Cult of Darth Vader

Lucas says the costume that the stuntman playing Vader in ANH was so restrictive that he could barely move, and because Lucas couldn't do much about that, he accepted ANH Vader as being "half-man, half-machine" by that standard, simply because the costume itself was restrictive. ESB Vader in contrast, is played by a "really good stunt guy" who is "one of the best sword fighters in England" and he also says "Mark Hamill is a good sword fighter" as well, all of this is coming from the mouth of the same George Lucas who the Vader skeptics use as the basis that Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi, even though the "half man, half-machine" remarks is exclusively limited to ANH Vader because the stuntman's costume was really restrictive, and doesn't at all extend to ESB Vader, because he was played by a "really good stunt guy" who is "one of the best sword fighters in England" by Lucas's line of thought. So if we're going to be consistent with appealing to Lucas's line of thought, we cannot argue that ESB Vader, and RotJ Vader by extension, is a "half-man, half-machine" because Lucas has made it clear that he isn't, and we all have to agree that ESB Vader is a far superior swordsman than ANH Vader, a view in itself that is directly supported by the Fightsaber article saying ESB Vader is far more formidable than ANH Vader

So for argument's sake, even if I agreed that Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi -- which I do not at all, and probably never will -- TPM Kenobi's supremacy over Vader would be exclusively limited to ANH Vader, but it wouldn't extend to ESB/RotJ Vader because he is not a "half-man, half-machine" by Lucas's line of thought, so the worst case scenario for the Vader camp is that ANH Vader, the "half-droid, half-man," is sub-TPM Kenobi, but I've said that I do not agree with the intepretation that he has said that ANH Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi, and now we're following to my second reason why I do not agree that Lucas is saying that Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi - not only does Lucas not even mention TPM Kenobi specifically, he literally says "So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing" --> Lucas says that he wanted to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi to be a more energetic and faster version of what was done for the Original trilogy. This in itself actually disconfirms the notion that TPM Kenobi is better than ANH Vader because when taking the entire Prequel trilogy and Lucas's line of thought into perspective, TPM Kenobi is not a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi because the same George Lucas worked with Nick Gillard on a system of levels grading the PT fighters from 1 to 10 (1 , 2 ). Kenobi as of TPM is a level 7 fighter, but as of RotS he is a level 8 fighter, Gillard has confirmed this in the RotS behind the scenes, saying that Kenobi has gone up one level from TPM to RotS (3 ), and there are probably a billion C canon sources talking Obi-Wan's growth from TPM to RotS, so you cannot argue that appeal to Lucas's remarks from the TPM featurette to lock Vader (ANH Vader, mind you) beneath TPM Kenobi, who isn't even a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi from Lucas's line of thought, otherwise you are committing a gross double standard, and can you honestly look me in the eye and tell me that TPM Kenobi is prime Kenobi? I hope not. All that you can reasonably conclude from this is that RotS Kenobi is better than ANH Vader, which I have no qualms accepting that because that can also be proven by C canon sources too.


As for Lucas's remarks about a "Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi," I think the most reasonable intepretation is that he's referring to Qui-Gon Jinn because the first lightsaber duel that we saw in the Prequels was Qui-Gon's encounter with Maul on Tatooine, though even where we might have a potential problem because TPM novel and StarWars.com state that Qui-Gon is slightly past his prime (4 ), so TPM Jinn isn't really a "Jedi in his prime fighting in the Prime of the Jedi" by that standard if we're going honest. However, these sources are C canon, George probably considers TPM Jinn as "a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi" because the C canon sources that say Qui-Gon is slightly past his prime revolves around the idea that he's 60 years old, but IIRC, this was an idea that was toyed around with before Liam Neeson was casted as Qui-Gon, the TPM novel, like all 3 of the Prequels, were based on an incomplete screenplays of the movies themselves. Liam Neeson was 45 years old during the production of TPM, which was in 1997, so he's not even close the character's supposed age in the novel. Now in case anyone accuses me of double standard by saying Ben Kenobi is 57 years old but Alec Guinness was 5 years older during the production of ANH, or that Darth Vader was 45 years old but was played by Sebastian Shaw, who was in his 70s during the production of RotJ, Ben Kenobi prematurely aged from being exposed to the heat of twin suns for 19 years during his life on Tatooine, and Ben himself suffered from depression and trauma, which can also cause premature aging. Vader suffered from Dark Side degradation because of many years of chronic use of the Dark Side, and it's no secret that he has had crippling depression. Liam Neeson was playing a character who was in great physical shape, and even the sources saying that Jinn was approaching 60, praise Jinn's physical prowess. Star Wars Insider #131 however, says that the battle between Jinn and Maul on Tatooine, was when they were "at the top of their game" which implies that Qui-Gon in his prime during TPM (it also implies that Maul was in his prime during TPM but we know that's largely been retconned by TCW), which is in line with Lucas's remarks about "a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi" in TPM featurette, and Jinn doesn't make it alive past TPM anyway. At best, all what you can reasonably conclude is that TPM Qui-Gon, and TPM Maul by extension (because he's a level 8 fighter , whereas Jinn is a level 7 in Lucas's line of thought), are better swordsman than ANH Vader, I don't have any qualms with Jinn and Maul having supremacy over ANH Vader as swordsmen, the former has some great accolades and hype praising him as swordsman, and the latter having supremacy over Vader is consistent with Resurrection (a comic tailor made for those wanting an answer to these popular Vader vs Maul debates) showing Vader narrowly overcoming the resurrected Maul through superior durability and connection to the Dark Side after being outmatched by him in finnese, speed and agility. That's still not enough to say that Qui-Gon would beat ANH Vader, because being a superior swordsman alone doesn't guarantee it when Vader is stronger, tougher, more durable and resilient and stronger in the Force than Qui-Gon (we'll got to this part later). But not's not get ahead of ourselves and say that they're also better swordsmen than ESB/RotJ Vader, who isn't a "half-man, half-machine," that's plain disengenious.

Next:

@KingofBlades wrote:
Since George Lucas set Episode I at a time when the Jedi Knights were at the height of their powers, Gillard ramped up the action, stunt work and, of course, lightsaber duels for the new film.

Starwars.com - Episode I Production Notes

The Jedi are at the height of their powers during the Prequel era and Gillard ramped up the choreagraphy for TPM. Great, but this doesn't definitively prove that Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi because it's not a comparison between them. I can easily and reasonably argue that the Jedi are at the height of their powers during the Prequel era because there are hundreds, if not thousands of Jedi, during that era, and they've all got the respect of the Republic. And before you pull that "faster choreagraphy means they're better than the OT fighters" card based on this quote, being more flashy, flamboyant and acrobatic doesn't automatically indicate superiority. The in-universe explanation for why the PT fighters are more flashy, flamboyant and acrobatic than the OT fighters are old Ben Kenobi, Luke Skywalker, Yoda and Darth Vader, and their fighting styles just don't work like that. Luke Skywalker is a Jedi Knight who recieved training from the aforementioned fighters, and let's talk about why these guys are not flashy, flamboyant and acrobatic as many of the Prequel era fighters:


1. Old Ben Kenobi -- this guy's "movements were slowed by age and lack of practice", but "even in his elder years, Kenobi remains a formidable Form III practitioner," Kenobi can't viably perform Ataru esque acrobatics to the degree of his younger self, which in large part is because " prematurely aged as a result of spending 19 years living in the immense heat on the planet of Tatooine, whilst also being exposed to twin suns on a daily basis for a prolonged period of time. Moreover, he was also dealing with ring rust due to being out of practise for several years, and he also dies in ANH. Luke received training from this man, which explains why he's not so flashy and acrobatic as the Jedi of the Prequels. Not to mention, even ESB Luke is better than Ben Kenobi, let alone RotJ Luke --> "A warrior needed to contend with equals. Obi-Wan was gone, and the other Jedi were all extinct, save one, who was the strongest of them all. His own son. He had told the Emperor that Luke Skywalker would join them or die. The real truth was only slightly different: Luke would join Darth Vader or die. It would be something to look forward to. That would be the duel of a lifetime. This wasn’t even exercise." --> granted, this from Shadows of the Empire, a novel that was published in May 1996, before the Prequels were even a thing, so it's ignorant of how good the PT era Jedi were, but the completed Original trilogy had already been around for 13 years at the time of its publication, so it's not ignorant of Ben Kenobi and ESB Luke, so we can use it to say ESB Luke is better than old Ben Kenobi. Fightsaber does say --> "By the time of the Battle of Endor, Luke Skywalker has studied some lightsaber technique from Obi-Wan's journal and greatly advanced his abilities. Without a Master, such advancement would have been impossible for most, but Skywalker's unparalleled aptitude makes him a match for Darth Vader in their fateful duel onboard the second Death Star." --> i.e. Luke studied a lightsaber technique from Obi-Wan's journals, Fightsaber doesn't specify what technique it was, but it was probably Soresu because it praises the technique for "greatly" advancing Luke's abilities, Soresu is a heavily defensively orientated form that is perfect for withstanding pressure fighters, and we know how much of a great Soresu master Obi-Wan Kenobi was, don't we? The quote itself also states that Luke's "unparalleled aptitude" i.e. his raw Skywalker talent, made him a match for Vader on the Death Star, which is unique to Luke's bloodline, there's no-one who is more talented than the Skywalker lineage, unless if you want to be a smartass and bring up Rey, but we don't talk about Rey in Legends threads Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 5 228124001


2. Yoda -- between ESB and RotJ, Luke recieved training from Yoda, but from a version of Yoda who is not only in exile, but has retired himself from lightsaber duelling to humble himself from the hubris the Jedi had in the Prequels, so Luke's training under Yoda heavily revolved around developing his relationship with the Force, rather than lightsaber combat, which took a backseat to the Force. Luke honed his lightsaber skills through training between ESB and RotJ, not from Yoda (as far as I am aware), but from Obi-Wan's journal.

3. Darth Vader -- suited Vader is not the typical flashy and acrobatic duelist that we see in the Prequels because his mobility is limited in comparison to pre-suit Anakin/Vader's movements --> "Both are limited, Vader by his cybernetic body parts..." -->  "...Darth Vader— recalling the grievous injuries he suffered during their last encounter—  fought his former Master with apprehension, while his cybernetic body reduced his actions..." --> hence why he's not as flashy and flamboyant. While suited Vader is not as mobile as his pre-suit self, this doesn't automatically mean he has shit mobility, it means that he's not as mobile as RotS Anakin/Vader, who isn't anyone to scoff at given that the RotS novel claims that he's the fastest Jedi ever, we know that his Vader's suit provided him "...with great mobility and strength..." --> but Vader's reliance on flashy acrobatics is minimal because his fighting style is a "refined version of Djem So, a fighting style that incorporated elements of Ataru, Soresu, and Makashi." --> i.e. Vader's fighting style is primarily strength orientated (that's what Djem So is about), though it also includes elements of other forms such as Ataru, Soresu and Makashi. These are elements of Vader's unconventional "refined version" of Djem So, but they are not Vader's primary forms, which is why Vader is not prominent for being a flashy and acrobatic duelist. This is relevant to Luke because the reason why he's not such a flashy and acrobatic duelist, despite having better mobility than Vader, is because his fighting style is a direct imitation of Vader's fighting style thanks to his raw talent --> "... mirrors Vader's own Form V technique and responds with a furious demonstration of Form V's raw strength. An observing Jedi Master would be astonished at such instantaneous learning in battle..." --> Luke's fighting style is heavily centered on copying Vader's fighting style, which is lacking in the typical Prequel era acrobatics, this isn't to say that Luke has the same mobility restrictions that Vader has, he doesn't - he actually performs 2 acrobatic backflips on their duel on the Death Star, but it was specifically when he voluntarily chose to stop his earlier assault, and he performs these acrobatics as a defensive tactic to dodge Vader's assault, but throughout the rest of the duel, he is mirroring Vader's use of Djem So while unleashing an assault on Vader, which didn't involve the use of acrobatics.


Next:

@KingofBlades wrote:
“We will finally get to see Jedi do what Jedi were designed to do. In the first one, you had this very old Jedi who was ready to go, and one who had been reconstructed who was half human and half machine. The only other Jedi who comes along is Luke, who is sort of semi-trained by Yoda, but never really gets the full training. So you’ve never seen a real Jedi doing what the real Jedi do, until now.” - George Lucas

Star Wars Insider Magazine #35

Much of this quote isn't offering anything new in this debate. George make sthe typical remark that ANH Vader is half-man, half-machine, but worded as "half human and half machine" this time, which doesn't nothing more than a difference in wording/phrasing, and we know that standard only applies to ANH Vader because as I have proven earlier. Not to mention, your quotation of Lucas comes from Star Wars Insider #35, which was published in September 1997, whereas Lucas clarifies his those remarks in George Lucas and The Cult of Darth Vader 8 years later i.e. 2005. In fact, your quotation of Lucas's 1997 remark actually proves my point because the entire sentence reads as "In the first one, you had this very old Jedi who was ready to go, and one who had been reconstructed who was half human and half machine."


If you're willfully ignorant the very beginning of the sentence reads as "IN THE FIRST ONE", WHICH IS A NEW HOPE.


The only thing that's new is that Lucas says that Luke the only other Jedi and he is "sort of semi-trained by Yoda, but never really gets the full training. So you’ve never seen a real Jedi doing what the real Jedi do, until now." --> Luke is isn't a real Jedi doing what real Jedi do from the Prequels... Because he never gets the full training, so I guess Luke sucks in comparison to the Prequel era Jedi because of incomplete Jedi training, right?


Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 5 1668617588  Well apparently not, because last time I checked the Star Wars canon, training is only facet, and it's also overrated:

"Better than training, the Force is. More than experience or speed it gives."

And he had given a demonstration. Three members of the council-Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin, and Depa Billaba, excellent fighters all-had come forward and attacked him. Master Yoda had not been armed, and had not seemed to move more than a meter or so, his tread slow and measured.

Nevertheless, none of the three had been able to lay a finger on him. The lesson had struck powerfully home: Knowledge of the Force was infinitely better than technique." -- Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter.

Right here from the novel Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter, Yoda gives Darsha Assant an important lesson: That the Force is better than training, providing more than what experience and speed provides, as demonstrated by an explicitly unarmed Yoda himself in a sparring match with Plo Koon, Saesee Tiin and Depa Billaba, and what happened in that sparring match? None of single one of them even managed to lay a figer on him, despite having the numbers advantage, against an unarmed Yoda. The demonstration of that lesson also "struck powerfully home" to Darsha that "Knowledge of the Force was infinitely better than technique" so I think the idea that Lucas's remark that Luke is not a real Jedi on the basis that he received incomplete training from Yoda, is not a confirmation that Luke is inferior the Prequel era Jedi, all it means is that Luke is an unorthodox Jedi, unless if you want to deal in absolutes by ignoring intepretation to throw Darth Maul: Shadow Hunter under the bus for being a C canon source, even though said C canon source doesn't actually contradict the G canon statement. Not to mention, if recieving inferior training to someone else automatically means the better trained person is superior, then we are at a loss to explain how Savage Opress, even before recieving any training in lightsaber combat and the Force, was able to kill Jedi Master Halsey and his padawan his padawan Knox. We are also at a loss to explain to explain how Asajj Ventress was defeated by Savage Opress, even though Savage has been described as a "very poorly trained Dark Side wielder" by Dave Filoni, whereas Ventress has recieved better training than Savage, yeah I know that Ventress's training was restricted, but it was surely better than Savage's training because she had a Jedi master at first, then got trained by Sith Dooku, whereas Savage at a that was a very poorly trained Dark Side wielder according to Filoni. Surely Savage's poor training should've gotten him to lose... Or perhaps, training is only one facet and is not the sole decider for who is better than who, so there must be lots of facets.

Next:

@KingofBlades wrote:
Until the Prequels, the only Jedi we’d seen in combat were old men and an inexperienced youth… and clearly, we hadn’t seen anything. 

Star Wars Insider Magazine #88

Nice! Another quote that says "clearly, we hadn't seen anything" by shit talking the OT for having "old men" like Ben Kenobi and "inexperienced youth" like Luke Skywalker, insinuating that what we see in the Prequels is better. Since it doesn't specify the Prequel era fighters after saying "clearly, we hadn't seen anything," it doesn't validate the Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi stance given that TPM Kenobi according to TPM novel "... brought youth and stamina to the combat, but he had fought in only a few contests and was not battle hardened." so he's also an "inexperienced youth" like Luke because his strengths are "youth and stamina" due to only being in "a few contests" and by default and was "not battle hardened" by that standard. Funnily enough, if we take your quote literally, then AotC Kenobi and even RotS Kenobi isn't really that different because he was beaten by Count Dooku, an old man, on both occassions. And since there's so many Jedi fighters in the Prequel trilogy, and none of them are mentioned alongside your quotation of the Insider magazine, arguing that it's affirming TPM Kenobi's superiority over the OT fighters is just absurd.

Next:

@KingofBlades wrote:
Before this scene, the lightsaber battles we’d seen in the Star Wars movies involved older Jedi, or Jedi who were yet to become full-fledged Jedi Knights, but here we saw Jedi and Sith fighting when they were at the top of their game.

Star Wars Insider Magazine #131

All that quote tells us is that Darth Maul's battle with Qui-Gon Jinn is different than the lightsaber battles than in the Original trilogy, because Maul and Qui-Gon are "Jedi and Sith fighting when they were at the top of their game" i.e. they're in their primes (this quote also self destructs because Maul's prime is actually in TCW era and it also contradicts TPM novel and the official Star Wars website saying Qui-Gon is past his prime at this point), whereas the lightsaber battles in the Original trilogy had Ben Kenobi, who is an "older Jedi" and Luke Skywalker who is a yet to become a "full-fledged Jedi Knight" but neither Maul or Qui-Gon, at least according to this quote, are old men or yet to become Jedi Knights. No shit they're not because Maul is a Sith Lord, and Qui-Gon is not an old man... At least as far as this quote is concerned.

Next:

@KingofBlades wrote:
Now you might talk about how this is referring to the fighting choreography of the PT compared to the OT, but this isn't actually addressing anything. George is using the improved choreography to convey his belief that the PT jedi were superior to what we saw in the OT. It doesn't make sense to separate the two. Lets look at one of the above quotes I provided so I can prove my point:


"We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing" - George Lucas 

Star Wars Episode I Featurette: Fights 

George thinks that we've never seen real jedi at work and that the jedi fighting in the PT are the prime of the jedi. Do you think George is saying this while also thinking "Yeah Vader would wipe the floor with that upstart Maul ". The message is clear, GL thinks that the PT Jedi>OT Jedi. This isn't even exclusive to the quote I used. I invite everyone to read the quotes I provided and then try and imagine the people who wrote/said those quotes also believing, "Yeah Vader would wipe the floor with that upstart Maul ". So in order for your interpretation of a single source to be true, not only does Ethan's Insider quote have to be wrong for seemingly no apparent reason, 5 other quotes(Some coming from GL himself) must also be wrong. That's the difference between my interpretation and yours imo. My interpretation works perfectly with all the sources I have provided you, while your interpretation flies contrary to half a dozen quotes. It seems clear to me which is the obvious choice.

This is assuming a number of things:

1. TPM Kenobi is "a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi" and is therefore superior to "half-droid, half-men" Vader -- absolutely incorrect. RotS Kenobi is "a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi" though.

2. All 3 versions of Vader i.e. ANH Vader, ESB Vader and RotJ Vader, fall under "half-droid, half-men" or "half-man, half-machine" however you want to word/phrase that remark -- absolutely incorrect. ESB/RotJ Vader is not a half-man half-machine, ANH Vader is a half-man half-machine though.

3. The quote saying that Qui-Gon Jinn's first duel with Darth Maul demonstrating that the Jedi of the Prequels have more more power and agility than they had in the Original trilogy is a confirmation that Qui-Gon is stronger than Vader and doesn't mean anything thing else other than that -- absolutely incorrect. We have this to consider:

"Perhaps the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader, Executor Sedriss remained loyal to the Emperor after the death of his clone over the Rebels' Pinnacle Base." -- Handbook 3: Dark Empire

As I said earlier, this quote explicitly states that Sedriss was "perhaps" the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Vader, meaning that Vader is Palpatine's strongest disciple. There is some define ambiguity on whether Sedriss is actually second to Vader, but it is very clear that Vader is the top dog and the quote certainly applies to TPM Maul (TPM Jinn and TPM Kenobi's superior) because it doesn't impose any limitations to any era or faction, and that version of Maul served and obeyed Palpatine without question, Shadow Hunter even says that if Palpatine ordered Maul to commit suicide, he'd do it. Not to mention, the source itsself was published in April 2000, a year after Maul made his debut in TPM that was publicly released in May 1999. Not to mention, this is also consistent with the Resurrection comic, published for the purpose of giving the answer to "the answer the heated fan debate -- who's tougher: Darth Maul or Darth Vader?" (view ) and also "Vader vs Maul The Brawl to settle it all!" (view ) which is self explanatory. What happens there? A pre-prime Vader, albeit after getting knocked on his ass by Maul in their lightsaber duel, stabbed himself in the gut whilst stabbing the resurrected Maul at the same time in act of self-hatred - Vader is alive, while the dying Maul, shocked, asks Vader what he could hate so much that enabled him to achieve victory, Vader's answer is "Myself" thereby proving that his own hatred is greater than Maul's hatred, indicating greater strength in the Force because Vader's hatred was potent enough to enable him to survive being stabbed in the gut, whereas Maul died from being stabbed by Vader. Keep in mind that Maul has a hate boner for Jedi, and wanted to prove himself to Vader, who Maul repeatedly mocks for being a former Jedi, and yet he was outmatched when his infamous hatred was tested against Vader's hatred. Can you still look me in the eye and tell me that quote means Vader's Force strength is than than Qui-Gon's, who is inferior to Maul?

Next:

@KingofBlades wrote:
I've pretty much addressed all of this but I'll pick a few of the points out that I haven't dealt with. You're correct that theoretically, Vader becoming far weaker than Palpatine doesn't neccessairly make him sub TPM Maul. However its still a possibility. All you've done is confirmed that the GL quotes you provided do not necessarily 
contradict your stance. That doesn't change the fact that the quote Ethan  provided, along with the 5 other quotes I've brought to the table, do in fact contradict your stance.

OK, I'll just give you more proof that Vader is not sub-Maul, but this time from someone who gets his all of Star Wars from George Lucas himself:

Dave Filoni: And then Savage is a very poorly trained Dark Side wielder. He's all... He's all aggression and power. He's kind of like the Hulk - but he doesn't have a lot of discipline, he doesn't have a lot of know how. Maul is a super dangerous threat because he’s been trained for years, he’s really adept, but he’s broken. So he’s kind of in the Vader-realm, and he’s a bit severed from what he knew, which was having a master, but he’s well trained by Sidious in all types of Sith ways, not the least of which is manipulation.

Source ― Weekly ForceCast: May 4, 2012

If Vader is supposed to be sub-TPM Kenobi and sub-TPM Jinn, then why does Dave Filoni, a producer of TCW who gets his Star Wars from George Lucas from spending countless hours working with him for 4-5 years, say that Maul is "kind of in the Vader-realm" for being "super dangerous threat because he's been trained for years" by "by Sidious in all types of Sith ways, not the least of which is manipulation" in 2012, for the sake of praising and hyping Vader as the big boss and make the point why Maul, and Vader by extension, are above Savage? Don't tell me that Filoni thinks that Vader, Maul and Savage are all sub-TPM Kenobi, because that's retarded. Not to mention, we also have this statement from Filoni:

Question: So… Vader and Maul are going to totally fight next season, right?

Dave Filoni:
[Laughs] I wouldn’t count on that. What I think is interesting is that Maul has an awareness of him. I think that that’s a particularly interesting thing. Maul obviously has been somehow keeping tabs on what’s going on in the galaxy and probably wishes he was more a part of it. That’s another bit of wonderful story, which is: What has Maul been up to? How did Maul get on this desolate planet? And we obviously don’t answer those questions at this time, but it is stuff we’ve considered when we wrote these stories. It never came to be that he would face off with Vader, at least not yet. Again, the main reason being that, while that’s a fun notion in a lot of ways, the personal story of the relationship between Ahsoka and Darth Vader as Anakin is way too compelling and needed all the screen time. As we were working out how this episode was going to go, it became clearer and clearer to me that I couldn’t have all these other people in play when we got to Darth Vader. It’s too distracting. At one point we had several of the characters still battling Inquisitors and Darth Vader was in the mix. I just felt like everybody kind of had to be thinned out and exhausted, and then here comes the worst thing of all. So you really feel like you have no chance whatsoever. So just organically, it happened that way over a period. We’ll have to see. You never know, you never know. The nerd-tacular obsession with Vader vs. Maul. It’s hard to say – I mean, Vader is hard to top. Something George is pretty adamant of all the time was that Vader, you know… You never want to do anything to diminish him.


Source -- Star Wars Rebels: Dave Filoni on Ahsoka's Fate, Maul's Return and Much More

This is from 2016. Dave Filoni quite plainly says that Vader is hard to top because George was "pretty adamant of all the time" that you never want to do anything to diminish him by making him lose to Maul -- Filoni made sure that Vader would be hard to top at the request of George Lucas. Yes this is referring to Canon Vader, but actually helps my point because the reason why Filoni is making sure that Vader is the top dog in Canon was out of respect to George Lucas's vision, but George no longer has any creative control over Star Wars, Filoni has the license to take creative liberty if he wanted to, he's not at all beholden to what Lucas wants, but he chooses not to take creative liberty because of how highly Lucas thought of Vader, so if Filoni is going out of his way to make sure Vader is hard to top at the requeest of choose Lucas,  . How the fuck would Lucas be so "adamant all of the time" about not wanting Vader to be diminished if he considers Vader to be sub-TPM Kenobi/Jinn? Or is it that TPM Jinn/Kenobi that high on the food chain that Vader, Dooku and Maul are really inferior to these guys? Are TPM Kenobi and TPM Jinn the real badasses in Star Wars? Did Qui-Gon lose to Darth Maul because of PIS? Are all the quotes talking about TPM Maul's superiority to TPM Qui-Gon and TPM Kenobi (individually) wrong because of some ambigious remarks that Lucas made back in 1999? Are they now level 9 fighters?

Next:

@KingofBlades wrote:
Ethan's quote does say that yes. There being only 3 jedi in the OT just means that the PT Jedi are >those 3 individuals. As to the context of which jedi it refers to, I agree that its silly to interpret this quote hyper literally and claim that literally every single member of the jedi order is above RotJ Luke, but I think we can reasonably assert that its talking about the jedi who are fighting in the films, hence the line, "Jedi from the Prequels would demonstrate far more power and agility" with the key word being demonstrate. TPM Kenobi definitely falls under this bracket, him being not being directly mentioned doesn't mean he isn't apart of it. However, if we want to strip the quote down to only what it can tell us with absolute certainty, we can say without doubt that at least Qui Gon is "far more powerful" then the OT jedi, which would include RotJ Vader's equal in Luke Skywalker. 

Already addressed this. And I can easily argue that "Jedi from the Prequels would demonstrate far more power and agility" is referring to the level of speed and pace that they fight with, and I'm not forcing any contradictions with that approach because neither Maul or Qui-Gon actually make use of telekinetic attacks during their duel. TPM Kenobi doesn't fall under this bracket unless if both Vader and Maul are sub-TPM Kenobi and sub-TPM Jinn.

Next:

@KingofBlades wrote:
The two passages aren't connected so no reason to treat them as if they're apart of the same quote. Not to mention I've shown what is required to be the case in order for your interpretation to be accepted. Are you willing to fly in the face of 6 quotes? I also think I've showed why TPM Kenobi should be taken as part of the quote, even if he isn't explicitly mentioned. At the very least, I think we should be able to agree that we can reliably use the quote to say that Qui Gon is above RotJ Luke, given that he's the one who is explicitly mentioned. Personally, I feel this goes beyond just Ethan's quote. When there are so many other quotes putting PT>OT, I think we should look for a plausible alternative interpretation to your quote that doesn't contradict all the surrounding evidence. Which I feel I've offered.

Some people might be using this to put Vader as low as possible out of hate for this character, but this isn't me. One need only look at some of my  first posts on this sight. I held Vader with ROTS Kenobi. I didn't lower Vader out of some spite filled agenda, I've adjusted my stance after seeing new evidence. I hope you genuinely consider what I've said and not just hand wave it as some Vader trolling/bait.


Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 5 6440543-8376257553-KqkRA

Fair enough on the Figurine collection quote though, but the rest of your arguments are absolutely incorrect.


Last edited by Latham2000 on April 4th 2020, 7:33 am; edited 4 times in total
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April 3rd 2020, 1:34 pm
The Vader camp can rest now, I spent 4 hours writing that and now I'm knackered. I don't think I can devote anymore of my time, so if this continues, sorry Vader supporters, but I can't help you any further.
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April 3rd 2020, 1:42 pm
@Latham2000 wrote:The Vader camp can rest now, I spent 4 hours writing that and now I'm knackered. I don't think I can devote anymore of my time, so if this continues, sorry Vader supporters, but I can't help you any further.
YOU JUST STOMPED THIS THREAD
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April 3rd 2020, 1:49 pm
Fantastic job man
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April 3rd 2020, 2:24 pm
Very good post.
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April 4th 2020, 9:01 pm
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Latham wrote:This is not a confirmation that Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi for 2 reasons. First and foremost, George Lucas's remarks are referring to the choreagraphy of the action scenes in ANH, because whilst he is making those remarks, the Featurette itself is showing the viewer Ben Kenobi giving Luke his father's lightsaber, Darth Vader's duel with Ben Kenobi on the Death Star, as well as Luke Skywalker training blaster bold deflection under the tutelage of old Ben Kenobi, all of these scenes are from ANH, the first movie of the the Original Trilogy, TPM itself is the first movie of the Prequel trilogy, so it's likely that the featurette itself was giving the viewers a reminder a comparison of how the previous trilogy's first outing turned out with the action scenes because TPM is the first outing of the Prequel trilogy, and there's no emphasis on the action in ESB and RotJ. Lucas's specific remark about Vader being "half-droid, half-manis specifically about ANH Vader and we know that it is exclusively limited to ANH Vaderbecause he clarifies this 6 years later, whilst the entire PT has been finished and released to the public, in this interview:

I'd like to first point out that you've misunderstood my message to a degree. I'm not claiming TPM Kenobi is definitively above Vader or Luke with the evidence I've provided. While I think that stance is plausible, I'm perfectly willing to accept only Qui-Gon is definitively above RotJ Luke and by extension Vader. Anyways onto your claim that the quote should only apply to ANH Vader. You're missing the point. Vader isn't actually relevant here.  The wording of Lucas's statment about Jedi encompasses the entire OT, not only ANH. Let's look at the quote again.


"We've actually never seen real Jedi at work, we've only seen crippled half-droid half-men and young boys that have learned from these old people. So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing" - George Lucas 

Star Wars Episode I Featurette: Fights 
The use of the word "never" means that Lucas is talking about all 3 movies here. So in all 3 movies, per the words of GL, we've never seen "real jedi at work". The obvious implication being that the PT Jedi fighting in the film(Qui-Gon and potentially TPM Obi Wan) are above the Jedi in the OT( ANH Ben and RotJ Luke). You've already accepted that the quote gives Qui Gon superiority over to whom it applies, you've just gotten confused on the individuals in question.  Whether or not ANH Vader is the particular incarnation of the character being mentioned here is irrelevant because this quote applies to RotJ Luke. People can then apply it to RotJ Vader by virtue his equality with Luke.

Latham wrote:Lucas says the costume that the stuntman playing Vader in ANH was so restrictive that he could barely move, and because Lucas couldn't do much about that, he accepted ANH Vader as being "half-man, half-machine" by that standard, simply because the costume itself was restrictive. ESB Vader in contrast, is played by a "really good stunt guy" who is "one of the best sword fighters in England" and he also says "Mark Hamill is a good sword fighteras well, all of this is coming from the mouth of the same George Lucas who the Vader skeptics use as the basis that Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi, even though the "half man, half-machine" remarks is exclusively limited to ANH Vader because the stuntman's costume was really restrictive, and doesn't at all extend to ESB Vader, because he was played by a "really good stunt guy" who is "one of the best sword fighters in England" by Lucas's line of thought. So if we're going to be consistent with appealing to Lucas's line of thought, we cannot argue that ESB Vader, and RotJ Vader by extension, is a "half-man, half-machine" because Lucas has made it clear that he isn't, and we all have to agree that ESB Vader is a far superior swordsman than ANH Vader, a view in itself that is directly supported by the Fightsaber article saying ESB Vader is far more formidable than ANH Vader

So for argument's sake, even if I agreed that Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi -- which I do not at all, and probably never will -- TPM Kenobi's supremacy over Vader would be exclusively limited to ANH Vader, but it wouldn't extend to ESB/RotJ Vader because he is not a "half-man, half-machine" by Lucas's line of thought, so the worst case scenario for the Vader camp is that ANH Vader, the "half-droid, half-man," is sub-TPM Kenobi, but I've said that I do not agree with the intepretation that he has said that ANH Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi, and now we're following to my second reason why I do not agree that Lucas is saying that Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi - not only does Lucas not even mention TPM Kenobi specifically, he literally says "[size=13]So to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi, I want it to be a much more energetic and faster version of what we've been doing"[/size] --> Lucas says that he wanted to see a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi to be a more energetic and faster version of what was done for the Original trilogy. This in itself actually disconfirms the notion that TPM Kenobi is better than ANH Vader because when taking the entire Prequel trilogy and Lucas's line of thought into perspective, TPM Kenobi is not a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi because the same George Lucas worked with Nick Gillard on a system of levels grading the PT fighters from 1 to 10 (1  2  ). Kenobi as of TPM is a level 7 fighter, but as of RotS he is a level 8 fighter, Gillard has confirmed this in the RotS behind the scenes, saying that Kenobi has gone up one level from TPM to RotS (3  ), and there are probably a billion C canon sources talking Obi-Wan's growth from TPM to RotS, so you cannot argue that appeal to Lucas's remarks from the TPM featurette to lock Vader (ANH Vader, mind you) beneath TPM Kenobi, who isn't even a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi from Lucas's line of thought, otherwise you are committing a gross double standard, and can you honestly look me in the eye and tell me that TPM Kenobi is prime Kenobi? I hope not. All that you can reasonably conclude from this is that RotS Kenobi is better than ANH Vader, which I have no qualms accepting that because that can also be proven by C canon sources too

A lot of this doesn't matter because as I explained, the quote isn't about Vader. Its about the PT Jedi fighting in the film compared to the OT Jedi. Its relevance to Vader is simply an extrapolation of the Vader Luke dynamic. I should also point out that I've never claimed the Lucas quote puts TPM Kenobi above Vader. I've only argued that the insider quote does. Bringing in Lucas and the other sources was just to show that the PT>OT dynamic was backed by more sources than just the one Ethan provided. So I never committed any of those double standards your were talking about. You have convinced me though that Lucas is referring to Qui Gon here. It being applicable to TPM Kenobi is extremely dubious. But I do think other sources like Ethan's insider quote can be argued to apply to TPM Kenobi. All in all , I'm not going to place definitive chains on any character besides Qui Gon.

Latham wrote:As for Lucas's remarks about a "Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi," I think the most reasonable intepretation is that he's referring to Qui-Gon Jinn because the first lightsaber duel that we saw in the Prequels was Qui-Gon's encounter with Maul on Tatooine, though even where we might have a potential problem because TPM novel and StarWars.com state that Qui-Gon is slightly past his prime (4  ), so TPM Jinn isn't really a "Jedi in his prime fighting in the Prime of the Jedi" by that standard if we're going honest. However, these sources are C canon, George probably considers TPM Jinn as "a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi" because the C canon sources that say Qui-Gon is slightly past his prime revolves around the idea that he's 60 years old, but IIRC, this was an idea that was toyed around with before Liam Neeson was casted as Qui-Gon, the TPM novel, like all 3 of the Prequels, were based on an incomplete screenplays of the movies themselves. Liam Neeson was 45 years old during the production of TPM, which was in 1997, so he's not even close the character's supposed age in the novel. Now in case anyone accuses me of double standard by saying Ben Kenobi is 57 years old but Alec Guinness was 5 years older during the production of ANH, or that Darth Vader was 45 years old but was played by Sebastian Shaw, who was in his 70s during the production of RotJ, Ben Kenobi prematurely aged from being exposed to the heat of twin suns for 19 years during his life on Tatooine, and Ben himself suffered from depression and trauma, which can also cause premature aging. Vader suffered from Dark Side degradation because of many years of chronic use of the Dark Side, and it's no secret that he has had crippling depression. Liam Neeson was playing a character who was in great physical shape, and even the sources saying that Jinn was approaching 60, praise Jinn's physical prowess. Star Wars Insider #131 however, says that the battle between Jinn and Maul on Tatooine, was when they were "at the top of their gamewhich implies that Qui-Gon in his prime during TPM (it also implies that Maul was in his prime during TPM but we know that's largely been retconned by TCW), which is in line with Lucas's remarks about "a Jedi in his prime fighting in the prime of the Jedi" in TPM featurette, and Jinn doesn't make it alive past TPM anyway. At best, all what you can reasonably conclude is that TPM Qui-Gon, and TPM Maul by extension (because he's a level 8 fighter  , whereas Jinn is a level 7  in Lucas's line of thought), are better swordsman than ANH Vader, I don't have any qualms with Jinn and Maul having supremacy over ANH Vader as swordsmen, the latter having supremacy over Vader is consistent with Resurrection (a comic tailor made for those wanting an answer to these popular Vader vs Maul debates) showing Vader narrowly overcoming the resurrected Maul through superior durability and connection to the Dark Side after being outmatched by him in finnese, speed and agility. That's still not enough to say that Qui-Gon would beat ANH Vader, because being a superior swordsman alone doesn't guarantee it when Vader is stronger, tougher, more durable and resilient and more powerful in the Force than Qui-Gon (we'll got to this part later). But not's not get ahead of ourselves and say that they're also better swordsmen than ESB/RotJ Vader, who isn't a "half-man, half-machine," that's plain disengenious.

Nice to see we agree that the quote gives Qui Gon superiority over whomever the quote applies. Now that I've clarified that the quote applies to RotJ Luke, all this stuff about Vader improving over the course of the films doesn't matter. Vader can improve all he wants from ANH to RotJ, his equality with RotJ Luke caps him underneath Qui Gon. Resurrection isn't a big factor imo, but I'll get into that later in my post

Latham wrote:The Jedi are at the height of their powers during the Prequel era and Gillard ramped up the choreagraphy for TPM. Great, but this doesn't definitively prove that Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi because it's not a comparison between them. I can easily and reasonably argue that the Jedi are at the height of their powers during the Prequel era because there are hundreds, if not thousands of Jedi, during that era, and they've all got the respect of the Republic. And before you pull that "faster choreagraphy means they're better than the OT fighters" card based on this quote, being more flashy, flamboyant and acrobatic doesn't automatically indicate superiority. The in-universe explanation for why the PT fighters are more flashy, flamboyant and acrobatic than the OT fighters are old Ben Kenobi, Luke Skywalker, Yoda and Darth Vader, and their fighting styles just don't work like that. Luke Skywalker is a Jedi Knight who recieved training from the aforementioned fighters, and let's talk about why these guys are not flashy, flamboyant and acrobatic as many of the Prequel era fighters:
Lucas is using the improved choreography as his way of conveying his belief that the PT Jedi are in their prime. So in this case yes, improved choreography does equal superiority.  Naturally this would mean that the PT jedi that fight in the films are above what was seen in the OT. While I think this can easily be applied to TPM Kenobi, I feel no need to press the point beyond applying it to Qui Gon. However, even if you disagree with the notion of TPM Kenobi>Vader, you should still be able to recognize the argument's plausibility and not hand wave it some absurd notion.


Latham wrote:1. Old Ben Kenobi -- this guy's "movements were slowed by age and lack of practice", but "even in his elder years, Kenobi remains a formidable Form III practitioner,Kenobi can't viably perform Ataru esque acrobatics to the degree of his younger self, which in large part is because " prematurely aged as a result of spending 19 years living in the immense heat on the planet of Tatooine, whilst also being exposed to twin suns on a daily basis for a prolonged period of time. Moreover, he was also dealing with ring rust due to being out of practise for several years, and he also dies in ANH. Luke received training from this man, which explains why he's not so flashy and acrobatic as the Jedi of the Prequels. Not to mention, even ESB Luke is better than Ben Kenobi, let alone RotJ Luke --> "A warrior needed to contend with equals. Obi-Wan was gone, and the other Jedi were all extinct, save one, who was the strongest of them all. His own son. He had told the Emperor that Luke Skywalker would join them or die. The real truth was only slightly different: Luke would join Darth Vader or die. It would be something to look forward to. That would be the duel of a lifetime. This wasn’t even exercise." --> granted, this from Shadows of the Empire, a novel that was published in May 1996, before the Prequels were even a thing, so it's ignorant of how good the PT era Jedi were, but the completed Original trilogy had already been around for 13 years at the time of its publication, so it's not ignorant of Ben Kenobi and ESB Luke, so we can use it to say ESB Luke is better than old Ben Kenobi. Fightsaber does say --> "By the time of the Battle of Endor, Luke Skywalker has studied some lightsaber technique from Obi-Wan's journal and greatly advanced his abilities. Without a Master, such advancement would have been impossible for most, but Skywalker's unparalleled aptitude makes him a match for Darth Vader in their fateful duel onboard the second Death Star. " --> i.e. Luke studied a lightsaber technique from Obi-Wan's journals, Fightsaber doesn't specify what technique it was, but it was probably Soresu because it praises the technique for "greatlyadvancing Luke's abilities, Soresu is a heavily defensively orientated form that is perfect for withstanding pressure fighters, and we know how much of a great Soresu master Obi-Wan Kenobi was, don't we? The quote itself also states that Luke's "unparalleled aptitudei.e. his raw Skywalker talent, made him a match for Vader on the Death Star, which is unique to Luke's bloodline, there's no-one who is more talented than the Skywalker lineage, unless if you want to be a smartass and bring up Rey, but we don't talk about Rey in Legends threads Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 5 228124001


2. Yoda -- between ESB and RotJ, Luke recieved training from Yoda, but from a version of Yoda who is not only in exile, but has retired himself from lightsaber duelling to humble himself from the hubris the Jedi had in the Prequels, so Luke's training under Yoda heavily revolved around developing his relationship with the Force, rather than lightsaber combat, which took a backseat to the Force. Luke honed his lightsaber skills through training between ESB and RotJ, not from Yoda (as far as I am aware), but from Obi-Wan's journal.

3. Darth Vader -- suited Vader is not the typical flashy and acrobatic duelists that we see in the Prequels because his mobility is limited in comparison to pre-suit Anakin/Vader's movements --> "Both are limited, Vader by his cybernetic body parts..." -->  "...Darth Vader— recalling the grievous injuries he suffered during their last encounter—  fought his former Master with apprehension, while his cybernetic body reduced his actions..." --> hence why he's not as flashy and flamboyant. While suited Vader is not as mobile as his pre-suit self, this doesn't automatically mean he has shit mobility, it means that he's not as mobile as RotS Anakin/Vader, who isn't anyone to scoff at given that the RotS novel claims that he's the fastest Jedi ever, we know that his Vader's suit provided him "...with great mobility and strength..." --> but Vader's reliance on flashy acrobatics is minimal because his fighting style is a "refined version of Djem So, a fighting style that incorporated elements of Ataru, Soresu, and Makashi." --> i.e. Vader's fighting style is primarily strength orientated (that's what Djem So is about), though it also includes elements of other forms such as Ataru, Soresu and Makashi. These are elements of Vader's unconventional "refined version" of Djem So, they are not Vader's primary forms, which is why Vader is not prominent for being a flashy and acrobatic duelist. This is relevant to Luke because the reason why he's not such a flashy and acrobatic duelist, despite having better mobility than Vader, is because his fighting style is an imitation of Vader's fighting style thanks to his raw talent --> "... mirrors Vader's own Form V technique and responds with a furious demonstration of Form V's raw strength. An observing Jedi Master would be astonished at such instantaneous learning in battle..." --> Luke's fighting style is heavily centered on copying Vader's fighting style, which is lacking in the typical Prequel era acrobatics, this isn't to say that Luke has the same mobility restrictions that Vader has, he doesn't - he actually performs 2 acrobatic backflips on their duel on the Death Star, but it was specifically when he voluntarily chose to stop his earlier assault, and he performs these acrobatics as a defensive tactic to dodge Vader's assault, but throughout the rest of the duel, he is mirroring Vader's use of Djem So while unleashing an assault on Vader, which didn't involve the use of acrobatics.

You're getting bogged down in the details and glossing over Lucas's intent. Yes there may be reasons the OT characters fought the way did, but that doesn't change the fact that Lucas is using the improved choreography as a way of conveying his belief that the PT Jedi in the films are superior to the OT Jedi. All the irrelevant details in the world can't change Lucas's obvious intent. An intent that you should have no problem accepting, since you've agreed that Qui Gon is allowed superiority over whomever the Lucas quote applies(the quote that was discussed at the beginning of this post) .

Latham wrote:Much of this quote isn't offering anything new in this debate. George make sthe typical remark that ANH Vader is half-man, half-machine, but worded as "half human and half machinethis time, which doesn't nothing more than a difference in wording/phrasing, and we know that standard only applies to ANH Vader because as I have proven earlier. Not to mention, your quotation of Lucas comes from Star Wars Insider #35, which was published in September 1997, whereas Lucas clarifies his those remarks in George Lucas and The Cult of Darth Vader 8 years later i.e. 2005. In fact, your quotation of Lucas's 1997 remark actually proves my point because the entire sentence reads as "In the first one, you had this very old Jedi who was ready to goand one who had been reconstructed who was half human and half machine."

If you're willfully ignorant the very beginning of the sentence reads as "IN THE FIRST ONE", WHICH IS A NEW HOPE.



The only thing that's new is that Lucas says that Luke the only other Jedi and he is "sort of semi-trained by Yoda, but never really gets the full training. So you’ve never seen a real Jedi doing what the real Jedi do, until now.--> Luke is isn't a real Jedi doing what real Jedi do from the Prequels... Because he never gets the full training, so I guess Luke sucks in comparison to the Prequel era Jedi because of incomplete Jedi training, right?

The various quotes aren't meant to add anything new to the conversation. Their purpose is to back the validity Ethan's insider quote and more broadly the entire PT>OT paradigm. You're also making the same mistake you made interpreting the Lucas quote discussed at the beginning of this post. Vader isn't relevant here, its the jedi Ben and Luke that matter. They're the ones that are directly inferior to the PT Jedi like Qui Gon. The reason people use this as evidence for Qui Gon >RotJ Vader is due to the fact that RotJ Luke and Vader are equals. I've said before that I'm not arguing that literally every single jedi in the PT order is above RotJ Luke. I do however, think we can apply the quote to the jedi actually fighting in the films( Qui Gon and potentially TPM Kenobi). If you want to argue that Kenobi wouldn't apply to this quote given that he's still a padawan, go ahead. I think we can both agree that the quote definitely applies to Qui Gon

Latham wrote:Nice! Another quote that says "clearly, we hadn't seen anythingby shit talking the OT for having "old men" like Ben Kenobi and "inexperienced youth" like Luke Skywalker, insinuating that what we see in the Prequels is better. Since it doesn't specify the Prequel era fighters after saying "clearly, we hadn't seen anything,it doesn't validate the Vader is sub-TPM Kenobi stance given that TPM Kenobi according to TPM novel "... brought youth and stamina to the combat, but he had fought in only a few contests and was not battle hardened." so he's also an "inexperienced youth" like Luke because his strengths are "youth and stamina" due to only being in "a few contests" and by default and was "not battle hardenedby that standard. Funnily enough, if we take your quote literally, then AotC Kenobi and even RotS Kenobi isn't really that different because he was beaten by Count Dooku, an old manon both occassions. And since there's so many Jedi fighters in the Prequel trilogy, and none of them are mentioned alongside your quotation of the Insider magazine, arguing that it's affirming TPM Kenobi's superiority over the OT fighters is just absurd.
See my preceding paragraph. Everything I said applies here. Also note that Lucas likely isn't saying that being old literally makes you inferior. One must only look at this Lucas quote from 2004-2005:

George Lucas wrote:“In this rendition, Vader was half-man, half-machine, and Obi-Wan was pretty much an old man, so this fight was a hard one for them. It wasn’t an acrobatic, jump-around, fast fight. It was a hard fight to fight, because they’re both kind of old Jedi.”

Since Lucas has put Dooku's supremacy on record by this point in time, whatever age related factors that are bringing Ben and Vader down obviously aren't relevant to Dooku. You shouldn't try to throw out these quotes by using a hyper literal interpretation that goes against Lucas's intent.

Latham wrote:All that quote tells us is that Darth Maul's battle with Qui-Gon Jinn is different than the lightsaber battles than in the Original trilogy, because Maul and Qui-Gon are "Jedi and Sith fighting when they were at the top of their game" i.e. they're in their primes (this quote also self destructs because Maul's prime is actually in TCW era), whereas the lightsaber battles in the Original trilogy had Ben Kenobi, who is an "older Jediand Luke Skywalker who is a yet to become a "full-fledged Jedi Knight" and Maul and Qui-Gon, are neither Maul or Qui-Gon, at least according to this quote, are old men or yet to become Jedi Knights. No shit they're not because Maul is a Sith Lord and Qui-Gon is not an old man as far as this quote is concerned.
 Maul's death being retconned and his subsequent growth in TCW is not proof that the intent of this statement, that Qui Gon and Maul are above Vader and Luke, has changed. Lucas is still using Maul and Qui Gon's duel as his tool for conveying his PT>OT belief. The value of these quotes aren't in a hyper literal interpretation, but in Lucas's intent. The way he views things. Thats what matters here. So this is still solid evidence that GL believes Qui Gon is above RotJ Luke and that TPM Maul is above RotJ Vader


Latham wrote:As I said earlier, this quote explicitly states that Sedriss was "perhapsthe strongest disciple of Palpatine after Vader, meaning that Vader is Palpatine's strongest disciple. There is some define ambiguity on whether Sedriss is actually second to Vader, but it is very clear that Vader is the top dog and the quote certainly applies to TPM Maul (TPM Jinn and TPM Kenobi's superior) because it doesn't impose any limitations to any era or faction, and that version of Maul served and obeyed Palpatine without question, Shadow Hunter even says that if Palpatine ordered Maul to commit suicide, he'd do it. Not to mention, the source itsself was published in April 2000, a year after Maul made his debut in TPM that was publicly released in May 1999. Not to mention, this is also consistent with the Resurrection comic, published for the purpose of giving the answer to "the answer the heated fan debate -- who's tougher: Darth Maul or Darth Vader?(view  ) and also "Vader vs Maul The Brawl to settle it all!(view  ) which is self explanatory. What happens there? A pre-prime Vader, albeit after getting knocked on his ass by Maul in their lightsaber duel, stabbed himself in the gut whilst stabbing the resurrected Maul at the same time in act of self-hatred - Vader is alive, while the dying Maul, shocked, asks Vader what he could hate so much that enabled him to achieve victory, Vader's answer is "Myselfthereby proving that his own hatred is greater than Maul's hatred, indicating greater strength in the Force because Vader's hatred was potent enough to enable him to survive being stabbed in the gut, whereas Maul died from being stabbed by Vader. Keep in mind that Maul has a hate boner for Jedi, and wanted to prove himself to Vader, who Maul repeatedly mocks for being a former Jedi, and yet he was outmatched when his infamous hatred was tested against Vader's hatred. Can you still look me in the eye and tell me that quote means Vader's Force strength is than than Qui-Gon's, who is inferior to Maul?

Well let's look at the quote along with some others.

"Perhaps the strongest disciple of Palpatine after Darth Vader, Executor Sedriss remained loyal to the Emperor after the death of his clone over the Rebels' Pinnacle Base." -- Handbook 3: Dark Empire


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Your quote is actually an excerpt from the final scan I provided. If you look at the context preceding the quote, it talks about Sheev's Dark side disciples, during the time of the Galactic Empire. Its obvious when reading the entire passage that Sedriss is being grouped with the dark side adepts mentioned in the text, not individuals who died decades ago. If that isn't enough I direct you to the first scan I provided where Sheev says Sedriss wasn't of the quality of a true sith apprentice, whereas he did deem Maul and Dooku worthy of the title. And even if you want to ignore the blatantly obvious context, Lucas' comments still overrule any sources that run contrary to his view on the matter. When it comes to Resurrection, I feel even the most pro Vader interpretation isn't strong enough evidence to override Qui Gon>RotJ Luke/Vader.  Vader held his own briefly but once Maul uses two blades Vader is down in three strikes.

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 Vader gloating in Maul's face that his hate made him stronger and allowed him to win doesn't mean he actually is. For all intents and purposes he had basically lost the fight and cheap shotted his way to victory. Oh and given that this is supposed to be the "brawl to settle it all" it would make more sense for this to refer to RotJ Vader rather than ANH Vader. Using a version of Vader, who per your admission is inferior to his RotJ incarnation, defeats the entire purpose of the comic's existence. So RotJ vader holding his own over tpm maul briefly doesn't prove anything. Jinn can still be more powerful than him under this paradigm. Either way, whatever you think this comic tells you, Lucas's statements should take precedence anyways. If you think Resurrection implies Vader is above Qui Gon, Lucas thinking Qui Gon >RotJ Luke while also believing Vader and Luke are equal(with Luke being given a slight edge) per the RotJ script is enough to overrule whatever you got out of Resurrection.


Latham wrote:If Vader is supposed to be sub-TPM Kenobi and sub-TPM Jinn, then why does Dave Filoni, a producer of TCW who gets his Star Wars from George Lucas from spending countless hours working with him for 4-5 years, say that Maul is "kind of in the Vader-realmfor being "super dangerous threat because he's been trained for yearsby "by Sidious in all types of Sith ways, not the least of which is manipulationin 2012, for the sake of praising and hyping Vader as the big boss and make the point why Maul, and Vader by extension, are above Savage? Don't tell me that Filoni thinks that Vader, Maul and Savage are all sub-TPM Kenobi, because that's retarded. Not to mention, we also have this statement from Filoni:

Dave Filoni: And then Savage is a very poorly trained Dark Side wielder. He's all... He's all aggression and power. He's kind of like the Hulk - but he doesn't have a lot of discipline, he doesn't have a lot of know how. Maul is a super dangerous threat because he’s been trained for years, he’s really adept, but he’s broken. So he’s kind of in the Vader-realm, and he’s a bit severed from what he knew, which was having a master, but he’s well trained by Sidious in all types of Sith ways, not the least of which is manipulation.

While I agree this quote implies Vader and Maul are in the same ballpark, there's nothing indicating Lucas endorses this opinion. Filoni is allowed to have his own opinions. He isn't some Lucas clone. He's actually gone on record saying he's "a fan" like us and because of this he has his own opinions separate from what Lucas tells him.


“That’s just me talking too, that’s not anything George said to me, because I’m a fan just like you.”

If this isn't enough, we have an IGN interview where Filoni talks about going back and forth with George on what should happen to Grievous in an episode of TCW:


IGN: In “Shadow Warrior,” you had the unlikely but fascinating battle of the Gungans versus Grievous. It’s in the rain, it’s really intense… Was that a lot of fun to approach that and see how that would play out?


Filoni: Yeah, because that was a huge challenge. I think I’ve said before how I went back and forth on that one with George several times saying, “Wow, if we do this to Grievous, I think that’s going to be a big, big loss for him. His credibility’s going to go down.” You know, we argued about it back and forth several times trying to figure out was that going to be the best move. George was always pretty resolute that it was going to be fine, and he talked with me through how we could achieve it. And I thought, “Well, if we’re going to take him out, then we have to lose something pretty big on the good guys’ side to make the sacrifice seem pretty meaningful.” So we had to take out Tarpals, which is pretty sad actually




Because Filoni has a mind of his own and has the capability to hold opinions not held by Lucas, the Filoni quote you provided doesn't have the authority to overrule statements coming directly from GL that put Qui Gon/TPM Maul above Vader.


Latham wrote:This is from 2016. Dave Filoni quite plainly says that Vader is hard to top because George was "pretty adamant of all the time" that you never want to do anything to diminish him by making him lose to Maul -- Filoni made sure that Vader would be hard to top  at the request of George Lucas. Yes this is referring to Canon Vader, but actually helps my point because the reason why Filoni is making sure that Vader is the top dog in Canon was out of respect to George Lucas's vision, but George no longer has any creative control over Star Wars, Filoni has the license to take creative liberty if he wanted to, he's not at all beholden to what Lucas wants,, but he chooses not to take creative liberty because of how highly Lucas thought of Vader. How the fuck would Lucas be so "adamantabout not wanting Vader to be diminished if he considers Vader to be sub-TPM Kenobi/Jinn? Or is it that TPM Jinn/Kenobi that high on the food chain that Vader, Dooku and Maul are really inferior to these guys? Are TPM Kenobi and TPM Jinn the real threat badasses in Star Wars? Did Qui-Gon lose to Darth Maul because of PIS? Are all the quotes talking about TPM Maul's superiority to TPM Qui-Gon and TPM Kenobi (individually) wrong because of some ambigious remarks that Lucas made back in 1999? Are they now level 9 fighters?

You're right that George doesn't want Vader diminished. But all that means is he doesn't want Vader taking unnecessary Ls in whatever medium he's portrayed in. Why do you think Filoni is reluctant to make a Vader Maul fight happen? He doesn't think the outcome of that match-up would look good for Vader. So he's honoring Lucas's desire to not diminish Vader by not making a Vader Maul fight occur. That doesn't demonstrate Vader and Maul are in the same ball park like you're impying. To make the meaning of Filoni's words more clear, this is what basically happened.



Q: Maul Vs Vader coming soon right??
Filoni: haha well Lucas doesn't like me making Vader look bad so...idk. you never know. 


Definitely not a ringing endorsement for Vader on how he stacks up with Maul.




Regardless, there's a distinction that should be made between Filoni's  personal view on Maul and Vader and Lucas's request to not diminish Vader. The latter is a request that Filoni tries to honor no matter what direction Disney decides to go in respect to Vader's power. Lucas didn't tell Filoni to make Vader "hard to top" like you claim. Filoni's belief that Vader is hard to top is independent of Lucas' request. And since I showed earlier why Filoni can have differing views from Lucas, you can't argue "Oh Lucas should agree with his opinion anyways".


 What would be classified as "diminishing' Vader under Disney or Filoni's view of Vader would not be something Lucas himself thinks is diminishing to Vader. In the context of our debate, Lucas' view on what diminishes Vader is what matters here, not Filoni's since Disney has gone in a different direction when it comes to how Vader is portrayed. Qui Gon can be below Dooku and Maul while also being above Vader without diminishing Vader in the eyes of Lucas. What Lucas would think is diminishing of Vader would be if you were to pit him against Qui Gon, since Lucas does in fact hold Qui Gon above.There's no need for all that stuff about Jinn or Kenobi needing to be tier 9s in order for this scaling to function 



Latham wrote:Already addressed this. And I can easily argue that "Jedi from the Prequels would demonstrate far more power and agility" is referring to the level of speed and pace that they fight with, and I'm not forcing any contradictions with that approach because neither Maul or Qui-Gon actually make use of telekinetic attacks during their duel. TPM Kenobi doesn't fall under this bracket unless if both Vader and Maul are sub-TPM Kenobi and sub-TPM Jinn.

You can't argue the quote is only referring to speed and pace when power is explicitly mentioned. Superior power doesn't have to be shown through telekinetic attacks. For Lucas, he's showing it through the increased speed you were talking about along with the superior choreography. Can you genuinely read that quote and believe the person who wrote it doesn't think the PT Jedi are superior to OT Jedi? The intent is plain as day.





To summarize my points.


1. Lucas' quotes show his belief that the PT Jedi(Qui-Gon) are superior to the OT Jedi. Vader isn't directly relevant for most of the quotes I provided, though one does make a comparison between Maul and Vader, which put Vader below Maul. To reiterate an earlier point; how Vader compares to the PT jedi is simply an extrapolation of the Vader Luke dynamic. Doing your best rendition of an Olympic gymnast in order to escape Lucas' blatant intent is disingenuous .


2.Ethan's source--among others--provides further support to a stance that is already backed by Lucas himself,


3. I've never argued that TPM Kenobi is definitively above RotJ Luke/Vader like you've been claiming I have. While I personally find the evidence compelling enough for such a stance, I recognize that the evidence isn't conclusive enough for some. I do however view Qui-Gon>RotJ Luke/Vader as a bedrock stance that we should all be able to agree on and anchor all future discussion around this point. 


@Latham2000


Last edited by KingofBlades on April 4th 2020, 10:25 pm; edited 3 times in total
The lord of hunger
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April 4th 2020, 9:05 pm
Lol nope 

Latham still ragdolling
Latham2000
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April 4th 2020, 9:10 pm
How long did you spend writing that?
BreakofDawn
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April 4th 2020, 9:14 pm
 Oh and given that this is supposed to be the "brawl to settle it all" it would make more sense for this to refer to RotJ Vader rather than ANH Vader. Using a version of Vader, who per your admission is inferior to his RotJ incarnation, defeats the entire purpose of the comic's existence. So RotJ vader holding his own over tpm maul briefly doesn't prove anything.

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KingofBlades
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April 4th 2020, 9:15 pm
A while
DarthAnt66
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April 4th 2020, 9:56 pm
Good post and good debate. Darth Vader (RotJ) and Luke Skywalker (RotJ) vs B-Team - Page 5 1289255181
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April 4th 2020, 11:03 pm
Terrible post and you can all suck my left nut. Latham did an amazing job explaining why your argument goes against the fundamental principles of logical reconciliation and your response equated to "nah-uh"

Ignorant people cannot be saved. When the rapture comes and the glorious dark lord selects those who walk the path you will be left behind. Your heresy will stay your feet and you will not continue into the divine beyond.
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April 5th 2020, 5:31 am
@KingofBlades I disagree with you on several points in regards to Filoni's opinion on how a Vader vs Maul fight would go. Also I made a case on why Vader and Luke aren't equals on pg 4
Latham2000
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April 5th 2020, 8:06 am
I'll start working on my response today, but I won't finish it in 1-2 days, so perhaps it will be a 4-7 day process depending on how much time I want to spend each day.
CuckedCurry
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April 5th 2020, 8:20 am
Damn. Be ready for the hand of God, KingOfBlades
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April 5th 2020, 10:41 am
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
[size=36]The use of the word "never" means that Lucas is talking about all 3 movies here. So in all 3 movies, per the words of GL, we've never seen "real jedi at work". The obvious implication being that the PT Jedi fighting in the film(Qui-Gon and potentially TPM Obi Wan) are above the Jedi in the OT( ANH Ben and RotJ Luke). You've already accepted that the quote gives Qui Gon superiority over to whom it applies, you've just gotten confused on the individuals in question.  Whether or not ANH Vader is the particular incarnation of the character being mentioned here is irrelevant because this quote [/size]applies to RotJ Luke. [size=36]People can then apply it to RotJ Vader by virtue his equality with Luke.[/size]

I already explained why I don't think Vader and Luke are necessarily equals in ROTJ. The Point is Vader can still be considered an equal to Luke despite not operating under his highest level.
In a similar fashion to MFV being Kenobi's equal despite not operating in his full potential. Or AOTC Yoda can be Dooku's equal in the force despite holding back most of his power.

"Search your feelings Father you can't do this I feel the conflict within you Let go of your hate"
"Your thoughts betray you, Father. I feel the good in you, the conflict"
Granted the first quote was before their duel but Vader's confliction is literally the over arching theme of his character in Return of The Jedi. He's not some asshole dick choking imperial officers anymore in this film, he just clearly wants his son back.
What I can't understand is people here make a huge deal out of Anakin being hindered during his duel with Obi Wan on Mustafar despite not being any concrete evidence in the films/G-Canon to support this. But when there is evidence that Vader is conflicted right in front of your eyes when you watch the film, people scoff at it, and act like it doesn't mean anything at all in regards to Vader's performance in the heated duel. Not to mention we have quote from the Courtship of Princess Leia that supports this theory...

"She pointed a finger at Luke, and before Luke even recognized her evil intent, a ripple of Force slammed into him. White lights exploded behind his eyes, and the right side of his face felt as if it had been smashed by a hammer. His left arm and right leg crumpled under their unbearable weight, and he dropped to the ground on one knee, stunned. All the noise and blaster fire and screams of pain died away, became a distant roaring. Gethzerion pointed at him again, twitched her finger, and his eyes lost focus. He felt the hammer blow to his left temple, dropped to his side and rolled over to his back, gasping. Luke stared up at the sky, watching streams of rocks hurtling above him—some propelled by the Force, others hurled by rancors.
Time seemed to slow. His head throbbed, pounding to the same rhythm as the beating of his heart. His face had gone cold, numb, and Luke realized distantly that Gethzerion’s spell had ripped open blood vessels in his brain, and he was about to die, one among hundreds of fatalities on this battlefield.
So this is how it would have been, if Vader had tried to kill me".
--The Courtship of Princess Leia

And we have Lucas himself implying Vader is more powerful than Luke:
"Well, children love power because children are the powerless. And so their fantasies all centre on having power. And who’s more powerful than Darth Vader, you know? And, some, you know, will be attracted to Luke Skywalker because he’s the good guy. But ultimately, we all know that Darth Vader’s more powerful than he is"-George Lucas on Rolling Stones
All in all there is no evidence that Qui Gon is above Vader, even if you want to argue that because it's implied he maybe above Luke. I have no problem in accepting a mentally hindered Vader who was equal to ROTJ Luke would lose to someone on Qui Gon Jinn's level. Furthermore, these quotes mainly refer to swordsmanship. Even the Quote Ethan posted, where "power" was mentioned, cannot be factoring in Qui Gon and Kenobi's force power. As both of them never displayed any level of force power during their duel against Darth Maul. Also you completed ignore Latham's point about how force training takes precedence over lightsaber training, which is one of the main factors to why Luke became a great jedi in ROTJ. That, and he obviously comes from an extremely powerful bloodline.


Vader gloating in Maul's face that his hate made him stronger and allowed him to win doesn't mean he actually is. For all intents and purposes he had basically lost the fight and cheap shotted his way to victory. Oh and given that this is supposed to be the "brawl to settle it all" it would make more sense for this to refer to RotJ Vader rather than ANH Vader. Using a version of Vader, who per your admission is inferior to his RotJ incarnation, defeats the entire purpose of the comic's existence. So RotJ vader holding his own over tpm maul briefly doesn't prove anything. Jinn can still be more powerful than him under this paradigm. Either way, whatever you think this comic tells you, Lucas's statements should take precedence anyways. If you think Resurrection implies Vader is above Qui Gon, Lucas thinking Qui Gon >RotJ Luke while also believing Vader and Luke are equal(with Luke being given a slight edge) per the RotJ script is enough to overrule whatever you got out of Resurrection.

You're completely wrong. Instead of making assumptions, why don't you actually look into the timeline for when this comic was set in?
"Resurrection is a 48-page comic story that appeared in Star Wars Tales 9 and collected in Star Wars Tales Volume 3. The story was written by Ron Marz, with pencils by Rick Leonardi, inks by Terry Austin, letters by Steve Dutro and colors by Raúl Treviño. It takes place shortly before the Battle of Yavin"
So clearly this is not ROTJ Vader.
Your "cheapshot" analysis of the fight is a subjective opinion. Calling Vader's move a simple "cheapshot" just takes away the meaning and purpose of Vader's victory which was by the way predicted by the prophets before hand.  Not to mention Maul had the surprise advantage as displayed on the first panel of the fight, which most certainly played a part in Vader's performance. With that being said personally think Vader's performance against Maul is clearly better than Jinn's. On one of the panels, Vader actually splits Maul's saber staff in half, as oppose to Jinn who could only contend with Maul as long as he did. Though I'm still definitely of the opinion that Maul>ANH Vader as the duelist. The purpose of the comic was to answer the popular fan question, who would win in a confrontation between Vader and Maul? Well look who came out of that duel alive? It was Vader. And by extension Vader is more powerful than Jinn.So that is what settles the debate. Despite Maul possessing superior mobility and agility to Vader, Vader still has the knowledge and power to overcome his weakness that allowed him to get the better of Maul. I think this is what the comic was trying to convey to us.

I already gave you my stance on Luke's "supposed" equality with Vader.

[size=36]While I agree this quote implies Vader and Maul are in the same ballpark, there's nothing indicating Lucas endorses this opinion. Filoni is allowed to have his own opinions. He isn't some Lucas clone. He's actually gone on record saying he's "a fan" like us and because of this he has his own opinions separate from what Lucas tells him.[/size]


While obviously Filoni isn't a Lucas clone. I'd argue that a character's power level in Star Wars is very important, especially in regards to Darth Vader who came from the creator of Star Wars himself. This isn't just something you can disagree with the creator. There's no way if Lucas really had the opinion that Vader is below Qui Gon Jinn Filoni would just disregard that idea. Going of by your interpretation, it would be like GL saying Sidious is the most powerful sith lord, and Filoni saying in an interview that Maul is a Sidious level threat. But this is clearly not the case at all in the show. Filoni obviously respects GL's vision of Sidious being more powerful than Darth Maul. Hence Maul and Savage getting their asses handed to them in S5 of the Clone Wars. So all those little disagreements Filoni and Lucas have had pale in comparison into deciding how a character (more specifically a GL character) should be portrayed in terms of their abilities. So in conclusion, it's highly likely that Filoni's views on Vader being in the same ballpark as Darth Maul aligns with GL's views too. If this wasn't the case then Filoni would've said differently as GL obviously has authorital intent over both Vader and Maul.

And this quote you provided doesn't help prove your point  considering Filoni mostly went with Luca's vision anyway for this specific scenario despite their little disagreements.
Filoni: Yeah, because that was a huge challenge. I think I’ve said before how I went back and forth on that one with George several times saying, “Wow, if we do this to Grievous, I think that’s going to be a big, big loss for him. His credibility’s going to go down.” You know, we argued about it back and forth several times trying to figure out was that going to be the best move. George was always pretty resolute that it was going to be fine, and he talked with me through how we could achieve it. And I thought, “Well, if we’re going to take him out, then we have to lose something pretty big on the good guys’ side to make the sacrifice seem pretty meaningful.” So we had to take out Tarpals, which is pretty sad actually



[size=36]You're right that George doesn't want Vader diminished. But all that means is he doesn't want Vader taking unnecessary Ls in whatever medium he's portrayed in. Why do you think Filoni is reluctant to make a Vader Maul fight happen? He doesn't think the outcome of that match-up would look good for Vader. So he's honoring Lucas's desire to not diminish Vader by not making a Vader Maul fight occur. That doesn't demonstrate Vader and Maul are in the same ball park like you're impying. To make the meaning of Filoni's words more clear, this is what basically happened.[/size]


[size=36]Q: Maul Vs Vader coming soon right??[/size]
[size=36]Filoni: haha well Lucas doesn't like me making Vader look bad so...idk. you never know. [/size]


[size=36]Definitely not a ringing endorsement for Vader on how he stacks up with Maul.[/size]



No offence but this is BS. "He didn't think the outcome for the match up would look good for Vader" that's why he didn't make the fight out of respect for Lucas? How do you counter this then?
“So originally in that episode you were gonna get Vader fighting Maul, Vader would have killed Maul, and then fought Ahsoka,” Filoni said. However, in the already jam-packed episode, he decided it was just too much". There you go, the Maul and Vader fight was supposed to happen.

So the reason why Filoni cut the Maul vs Vader fight, was because he thought it would be just too much for the finale. Which makes sense as Ahsoka vs Vader would've made more of an impactful duel by itself due to the history between the two characters and that alone would just be enough for a finale episode. Adding a Vader vs Maul duel before an emotional climax would just be unnecessary for the story telling purposes. So with all the context given, Maul vs Vader was 100% going to happen and What Lucas meant by not making Vader look bad, is not having Vader lose the fight against Maul.
Then we have these quotes
"We used to have this problem in Clone Wars when we would try to put Yoda in a story and it would be like, “Yeah, if Yoda’s there, this isn’t really a problem is it?” That’s because Yoda’s going to go in there and kick everyone’s butt. We all felt that Ahsoka, the only person that could really match her in this time period, blow for blow, would be Vader or the Emperor".

Notice how Filoni doesn't mention Maul in this quote? Now this does call into question considering Maul does indeed match Ahsoka blow for blow in Rebels. I think he is mostly implying that he doesn't think Maul can beat Ahsoka while Vader and the Emperor (obviously could). It's possible that he just forgot to mention Maul though it seems strange to forget about an extremely prominent character in Star Wars. But to me this implies he thinks Vader is>Maul.

Furthermore, Maul himself admits he is no match for Vader in the actual episode ( I'll try and find the quote later)

Finally, we have Old Ben Kenobi blitzing Maul in Rebels who is equal to or slightly inferior to ANH Vader in canon.

So with all this information gathered including the point about how Vader was originally supposed to kill of Maul in the Rebels Season 2 finale, to me it seems abundantly clear that Filoni thinks Vader is superior to Rebels Maul

[size=36]Regardless, there's a distinction that should be made between Filoni's  personal view on Maul and Vader and Lucas's request to not diminish Vader. The latter is a request that Filoni tries to honor no matter what direction Disney decides to go in respect to Vader's power. Lucas didn't tell Filoni to make Vader "hard to top" like you claim. Filoni's belief that Vader is hard to top is independent of Lucas' request. And since I showed earlier why Filoni can have differing views from Lucas, you can't argue "Oh Lucas should agree with his opinion anyways".[/size]
[size=36]What would be classified as "diminishing' Vader under Disney or Filoni's view of Vader would not be something Lucas himself thinks is diminishing to Vader. In the context of our debate, Lucas' view on what diminishes Vader is what matters here, not Filoni's since Disney has gone in a different direction when it comes to how Vader is portrayed. Qui Gon can be below Dooku and Maul while also being above Vader without diminishing Vader in the eyes of Lucas. What Lucas would think is diminishing of Vader would be if you were to pit him against Qui Gon, since Lucas does in fact hold Qui Gon above.There's no need for all that stuff about Jinn or Kenobi needing to be tier 9s in order for this scaling to function [/size]


It's more so the storylines they don't see eye to eye on. For example Lucas was a firm believer that Ahsoka should've died before ROTS where as Filoni believed she should live on past Order 66. But when it comes to a GL character's power level and how they should perform in a duel, Filoni is absolutely respecting Luca's vision. For instance, in TCW S6 we see Dooku absolutely man handling Kenobi like he did in AOTC and ROTS. We see Anakin getting the better of Dooku in a saber duel in TCW S4 by superior strength and stamina which mirrors his fight with him in ROTS. Kenobi gets the better of Darth Maul in every instance of their duels, which is consistent with how much he has grown since he defeated Maul at the end of TPM. Same with in regards to Vader. It's not like Filoni is making Vader do force lightning or shit like that, he perfectly captures his crude fighting style as seen in the OT while making him very powerful with the force but not like a god akin to Palpatine. This is pretty much in line with what Lucas thinks of the character. And Lucas has never definitively said Jinn is above Vader, that is just your interpretation. As I said, your ability as a swordsman does not automatically mean you are above one another over all. Force power plays a massive factor into this. And by feats Vader has demonstrated more with the force in the OT than Jinn ever has. What exactly force wise has Jinn displayed that puts him over Vader?

The highlighted text is what you have said @kingoftheblades


Last edited by SithSauce on April 9th 2020, 12:11 pm; edited 20 times in total
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