Jedi Dooku vs TPM Maul

Why Palpatine was jealous of Dooku?

As of now, I think Maul actually stands a fairly good chance, in stark contrast to my original opinion. If Maul is better than Qui Gon, who is only a bit less deadly than Mace, who himself is in Dooku’s overall tie, then Maul can certainly defeat Dooku. For now I’d call it a stalemate, but I can be swayed to either side.

Reminder that TPM Qui-Gon was, as you put it, supposedly "a bit less deadly" than TPM Mace

Mace spent the next 14 years honing his dueling skill

I do agree that TPM Maul kills Jedi Dooku, though.

Why does everyone get so touchy over TPM not being Windu’s prime? We all know Vaapad wasn’t perfected by that point. But Windu circa TPM has “complete mastery of every Jedi fighting style”, and Qui-Gon’s lightsaber style is “a bit less deadly” than Windu’s.

However, we do have quotes talking about Maul being a challenge for any Jedi, so him at least holding with Dooku at this point isn’t necessarily off the table. In addition, his MO is to gain a physical victory, but if he’s losing a lightsaber duel there’s no doubt he’d pull out his “extremely honed” Force abilities.

That Qui-Gon quote could be game mechanics.

@Geistalt never did I claim it wasn’t TPM Windu (it was implicit), otherwise the argument wouldn’t work since peak Mace is a lot better than jedi Dooku.

Meatpants wrote:Why does everyone get so touchy over TPM not being Windu’s prime? We all know Vaapad wasn’t perfected by that point.

Probably because the implication of erroneously claiming characters like Jedi Dooku or Qui-Gon were superior to or roughly as skilled as RotS Windu, respectively, is that Jedi Dooku and Qui-Gon are roughly as strong as RotS Sidious and Yoda.

That last page just made me think everyone's been getting into their stockpiles of ketamine.

I don't think there's much difference between TPM Mace and RotS Mace tbh. He might have gotten bit tougher mentally I guess, but he's basically just as skilled and just as wise. Development wise I don't see him getting much better sans the dismissal of his Jedi restraint.

RotS Mace as a more mentally disciplined, more masterful, more experienced and more battle hardened Mace than TPM Mace thanks an extra 10 years of Force study and also 3 years of clone wars combat experience. The gap between them should be massive tbh.

O-Siri wrote:I don't think there's much difference between TPM Mace and RotS Mace tbh. He might have gotten bit tougher mentally I guess, but he's basically just as skilled and just as wise. Development wise I don't see him getting much better sans the dismissal of his Jedi restraint.

Aside from having 13 years of growth on TPM Mace, ROTS Mace also begin developing and mastering Vaapad, and didn't fully master it until sometime after Shatterpoint. He also had massive emotional and power growth from his TPM iteration. Probably not an exaggeration to say ROTS Mace could lolstomp his TPM counterpart.

Let's not forget that TPM Mace is at best, on par with AotC Mace, who is weaker than AotC Yoda, who is equal to AotC Dooku, who in turn is less powerful than RotS Dooku, who in turn is incapable of competing with RotS Sheev, who RotS Yoda and RotS Mace can compete with.

Moral of the story: RotS Yoda = RotS Windu = RotS Sheev >>>>>>> RotS Dooku >> AotC Dooku = AotC Yoda > AotC Windu => TPM Windu.

Yoda and Dooku have been confirmed as equals by Lucas in the LFL AotC DVD documentary in case you forgot.

Let's not forget that TPM Mace is at best, on par with AotC Mace,

No he's not. Vaapad would have been in development a fair bit of time before AOTC. That already gives Mace an edge over his TPM self. Factor in 10 years of power growth, too.

who is weaker than AotC Yoda,

With no clear margin except for the fact that he's weaker. Let's not forget Mace believed he could have struck Dooku down in the viewing balcony before Dooku could react (albeit I'm sceptical it'd be that easy).

who is equal to AotC Dooku,

Hmm.

who in turn is less powerful than RotS Dooku, who in turn is incapable of competing with RotS Sheev, who RotS Yoda and RotS Mace can compete with.

Agreed.

Moral of the story: RotS Yoda = RotS Windu = RotS Sheev >>>>>>> RotS Dooku >> AotC Dooku = AotC Yoda > AotC Windu => TPM Windu

Bit exaggerated, imo. ROTS Dooku isn't stomp gap below Sheev, and AOTC Windu > TPM Windu. I'd also argue AOTC Windu isn't that far behind Yoda.

BoD wrote:

Let's not forget that TPM Mace is at best, on par with AotC Mace,

No he's not. Vaapad would have been in development a fair bit of time before AOTC. That already gives Mace an edge over his TPM self. Factor in 10 years of power growth, too.

who is weaker than AotC Yoda,

With no clear margin. 

who is equal to AotC Dooku,

Hmm.

who in turn is less powerful than RotS Dooku, who in turn is incapable of competing with RotS Sheev, who RotS Yoda and RotS Mace can compete with.

Agreed.

Moral of the story: RotS Yoda = RotS Windu = RotS Sheev >>>>>>> RotS Dooku >> AotC Dooku = AotC Yoda > AotC Windu => TPM Windu

Bit exaggerated, imo. ROTS Dooku isn't stomp gap below Sheev, and AOTC Windu > TPM Windu. I'd also argue AOTC Windu isn't that far behind Yoda.

1. Hence why I said "at best"

2. Still weaker.

3. Search your feelings you know it to be true.

4. Cool.

5. Define stomp gap from your point of view.

They were equal because Yoda didn’t retaliate with any offensive powers of his own, legit his only respond to Dooku’s attacks were to deflect them back (which in and of itself is an indication of superiority). We know from later sources, such as YDR, that Yoda was definitively superior, even when their emotional states were polar opposite—Dooku actively fighting to kill Yoda, Yoda fighting to kill Dooku only if he has to. 

And before you claim that Yoda benefited from considerable war growth, please consider that Yoda did not engage on battle fronts unless absolutely necessary, which is confirmed by the ROTS novel. Additionally, you have the growing darkness and mental degradation of the Jedi as a whole, as well as the growing darkness in the galaxy. It’s honestly more believable that Dooku grew moreso than Yoda did through the war, yet he still got his ass handed to him on Vjun.

So, please explain to me how AOTC Dooku and Yoda are equals, whatever “equals” means.

CuckedCurry wrote:They were equal because Yoda didn’t retaliate with any offensive powers of his own, legit his only respond to Dooku’s attacks were to deflect them back (which in and of itself is an indication of superiority). We know from later sources, such as YDR, that Yoda was definitively superior, even when their emotional states were polar opposite—Dooku actively fighting to kill Yoda, Yoda fighting to kill Dooku only if he has to. 

And before you claim that Yoda benefited from considerable war growth, please consider that Yoda did not engage on battle fronts unless absolutely necessary, which is confirmed by the ROTS novel. Additionally, you have the growing darkness and mental degradation of the Jedi as a whole, as well as the growing darkness in the galaxy. It’s honestly more believable that Dooku grew moreso than Yoda did through the war, yet he still got his ass handed to him on Vjun.

So, please explain to me how AOTC Dooku and Yoda are equals, whatever “equals” means.

Lucas said they are equals in the blu ray BTS clip Jake shared.

1. Hence why I said "at best"

"At best" implies he's potentially the same level. He's not. There's no reason to think he is, either. We know Mace improved his technique and his power grew over 10 years. 

2. Still weaker.

And? 

3. Search your feelings you know it to be true.

I don't want to call down the fury of Jake and his band so I'm not going to comment. 

5. Define stomp gap from your point of view.

By "stomp", I refer to the idea that Sidious could defeat him easily, or do it without expending much energy. Saying ROTS Sheev ">>>>>>>" RotS Dooku implies that Sheev could stomp or ragdoll him whenever he wants. He can't.

The Witness wrote:Lucas said they are equals in the blu ray BTS clip Jake shared.

Right, but being equals can mean a number of things. If you have one person taking an offensive stance (in this case, Dooku) and the other taking a defensive stance (Yoda), and the attacker’s attacks are reflected back at the attacker by the defender, but the attacker is capable of defending himself against his own attacks, then they’re equals, as neither can get any form of advantage over the other.

If the defender has demonstrated offensive capabilities well beyond the Attacker, but refuses to use them, then they are equals. And this is the relationship between Yoda and Dooku. Not once has Yoda ever taken up a Force offensive on Dooku, not with own power at least.

I've changed my stance on AotC Yoda and AotC Dooku because I've found this quote a few minutes ago,

"Lightsabers ignited, Count Dooku and Yoda began an epic confrontation. Clearly skill with a lightsaber would not decide the outcome of the duel, and the two combatants exhibited near equal strength in the Force. The duel raged on, noble Jedi pitted against evil Sith, until Dooku threatened the life of the fallen Obi Wan and Anakin, forcing Yoda to abandon the battle to save his allies and allowing Dooku the opportunity to escape." -- Duel With Dooku, Episode 2 Attack of the Clones Diorama.

It's more explicit on how Yoda and Dooku's Force strength stacks up to each other than Lucas's statement tbh.

@BoD @CuckedCurry

CuckedCurry wrote:

The Witness wrote:Lucas said they are equals in the blu ray BTS clip Jake shared.

Right, but being equals can mean a number of things. If you have one person taking an offensive stance (in this case, Dooku) and the other taking a defensive stance (Yoda), and the attacker’s attacks are reflected back at the attacker by the defender, but the attacker is capable of defending himself against his own attacks, then they’re equals, as neither can get any form of advantage over the other.

If the defender has demonstrated offensive capabilities well beyond the Attacker, but refuses to use them, then they are equals. And this is the relationship between Yoda and Dooku. Not once has Yoda ever taken up a Force offensive on Dooku, not with own power at least.

But Curry, he deflected Dooku's own lightning back at him! Surely that means Yoda was attacking him back?

Latham2000 wrote:I've changed my stance on AotC Yoda and AotC Dooku because I've found this quote a few minutes ago,

"Lightsabers ignited, Count Dooku and Yoda began an epic confrontation. Clearly skill with a lightsaber would not decide the outcome of the duel, and the two combatants exhibited near equal strength in the Force. The duel raged on, noble Jedi pitted against evil Sith, until Dooku threatened the life of the fallen Obi Wan and Anakin, forcing Yoda to abandon the battle to save his allies and allowing Dooku the opportunity to escape." -- Duel With Dooku, Episode 2 Attack of the Clones Diorama.

It's more explicit on how Yoda and Dooku's Force strength stacks up to each other than Lucas's statement tbh.

@BoD @CuckedCurry

Which is a completely valid stance. I personally have the two on the same level, with Yoda having a small edge due to experience and raw power. As Dooku said, any edge was too small for it to be settled with the Force.

BoD wrote:

Latham2000 wrote:I've changed my stance on AotC Yoda and AotC Dooku because I've found this quote a few minutes ago,

"Lightsabers ignited, Count Dooku and Yoda began an epic confrontation. Clearly skill with a lightsaber would not decide the outcome of the duel, and the two combatants exhibited near equal strength in the Force. The duel raged on, noble Jedi pitted against evil Sith, until Dooku threatened the life of the fallen Obi Wan and Anakin, forcing Yoda to abandon the battle to save his allies and allowing Dooku the opportunity to escape." -- Duel With Dooku, Episode 2 Attack of the Clones Diorama.

It's more explicit on how Yoda and Dooku's Force strength stacks up to each other than Lucas's statement tbh.

@BoD @CuckedCurry

Which is a completely valid stance. I personally have the two on the same level, with Yoda having a small edge due to experience and raw power. As Dooku said, any edge was too small for it to be settled with the Force.

i n d e e d.

Latham2000 wrote:I've changed my stance on AotC Yoda and AotC Dooku because I've found this quote a few minutes ago,

"Lightsabers ignited, Count Dooku and Yoda began an epic confrontation. Clearly skill with a lightsaber would not decide the outcome of the duel, and the two combatants exhibited near equal strength in the Force. The duel raged on, noble Jedi pitted against evil Sith, until Dooku threatened the life of the fallen Obi Wan and Anakin, forcing Yoda to abandon the battle to save his allies and allowing Dooku the opportunity to escape." -- Duel With Dooku, Episode 2 Attack of the Clones Diorama.

It's more explicit on how Yoda and Dooku's Force strength stacks up to each other than Lucas's statement tbh.

@BoD @CuckedCurry

Even this source is pretty hit-and-miss. What does “near equal strength in the Force” even mean. Is it referring to their Force reserves? Is it referring to their Force duel in the scene itself and not the bigger picture (to which I would respond to it much the same way as I did with the Lucas quote)? 

The wording is also interesting;  “exhibited” means that the quote refers exclusively to the showings of power which were shown in the fight itself, where Dooku attacks and Yoda only responds by deflecting Dooku’s own power back at him. “Near-equal” obviously means one had a slight advantage and that would be Yoda, which is even more evidence that the actual gap between Dooku and Yoda is much larger than what many believe it to be, as if Yoda holds a slight edge without even throwing a single attack of his own, then one can only imagine just how large the gap would be if Daddy put his hand down.

Thinking face emoji