★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

Now Vol needs to be banned 

Can't make this shit up.

The bulk of Vol's wank is making up for his rather unquantifiable nature, and I think the Vol supporters have fallen short in that. Kun is still the likely victor in my eyes, superiority to JA Luke, and TOTJ Kun being >> his Spirit iteration, and esoteric shit Luke can't even fathom or properly counter. There is no question that Kun deserves this spot.

I'll be responding to some of this later, but this:

Yet after this, Dramath is able to contend with Vaylin and Arcann alongside the Outlander and attack the spirit of Tenebrae, both dominating him momentarily and wounding him:



Clearly, Tenebrae's victory over Dramath in his youth lacks considerable context, if Dramath in a far stronger state was < 10 year old Tenebrae he'd be absolutely nothing compared to KOTET spirit Tenebrae.

Lord Dramath is however very much the canonical inferior of Marka Ragnos as he is defeated during Ragnos' reign:

Is a huge hot take. First, the idea that Dramath "competed" with Arcann and Vaylin is sceptical at best. The Outlander was shown to be capable of fighting both at the same time without Dramath, indicating that he was carrying Dramath throughout the fight. While Dramath can of course be capable of competing with them, there is zero evidence for this since the Outlander was able of fighting both simultaneously. My playthrough for example had the Outlander free Dramath but fight both, meaning Dramath most likely only played a supporting role within the fight to back up the Outlander, who would be the primary target for both. 

Clearly, Tenebrae's victory over Dramath in his youth lacks considerable context, if Dramath in a far stronger state was < 10 year old Tenebrae he'd be absolutely nothing compared to KOTET spirit Tenebrae.

Yes, it probably does have context. You know what else has context? That showing above:

- Valkorion starts by saying "lol you're not worth my time. Kids, kill them."
- Valkorion stands idly by as Dramath rants, not even trying to defend himself.
- Dramath has had centuries if not over a millennia to plan this attack. He's interacted with Vitiate/Valkorion countless times over the millennia, giving him ample time to figure out some of his weaknesses.
- Dramath, despite using a kamikaze attack that utterly obliterates himself, is only able to knock Valkorion to the ground for about 8 seconds before Valkorion gets back up, laughing. 
- Valkorion notes that all Dramath did was "pierce (his) armour at the cost of his life", something that Valkorion did not expect but finds more amusing than anything. 

So to reiterate:

A bragging Valkorion who clearly doesn't consider Dramath a threat is knocked over for around 8 seconds by a being who's had over a millennia to plan this suicide attack to deliver the most damage to Valkorion as possible, an attack he believed could kill Valkorion. The attack knocked Valkorion over and hurt him, killing Dramath in the process, but did nothing more. Valkorion was then laughing about it as he stood back up and then carried on like nothing happened.

Nothing here suggests Ragnos is a threat to Valkorion, nor is Dramath. If you seriously believe a being who's had this long to plan and consolidate his powers to strike at Valkorion and gave every aspect of himself to the attack (killing himself in the process) can under normal circumstances be considered a threat to Valkorion, you're deluding yourself.

Child Tenebrae's victory over Dramath doesn't have any context. I find the idea that all the sources just left out some crucial reason why Vitiate won to be pretty amusing, to say the least. That's very misleading to the reader, especially when we have descriptions pretty blatantly highlighting how Tenebrae was "the stronger" of the two - who makes a statement like that if there was context which allowed Vitiate to compete? Did all the authors writing this event just conveniently forget to give us the relevant information regarding Vitiate's victory? Or is it more likely that Vitiate was just intended to be stronger - no strings attached?

Which just adds further credibility to the idea that Dramath was taking advantage of Valkorion's overconfidence and had been preparing for centuries to strike at him...and still couldn't do anything more than knock him down for less than 10 seconds.

@LadyKulvax:

This post is my final major one, and for good reason. It's probably my best thus far. Time for explanations:

If this is the best you've offered up thus far, then I'm afraid to see what arguments your other posts contain.

Lord Dramath was attacked by Tenebrae in his son's youth and stripped of his connection to the Force; I'm taking the Codex Entry as this is the only non-IU source that depicts events:

[...]

Clearly, Tenebrae's victory over Dramath in his youth lacks considerable context, if Dramath in a far stronger state was < 10 year old Tenebrae he'd be absolutely nothing compared to KOTET spirit Tenebrae.

I already went over this: "Child Tenebrae's victory over Dramath doesn't have any context. I find the idea that all the sources just left out some crucial reason why Vitiate won to be pretty amusing, to say the least. That's very misleading to the reader, especially when we have descriptions pretty blatantly highlighting how Tenebrae was "the stronger" of the two - who makes a statement like that if there was context that allowed Vitiate to compete? Did all the authors writing this event just conveniently forget to give us the relevant information regarding Vitiate's victory? Or is it more likely that Vitiate was just intended to be stronger - no strings attached?"

The idea that Tenebrae's victory over Dramath had context ignores the clear narrative intent.

Dramath's spirit is left to 'wither' into 'madness' over 1,300 years:

Such doesn't necessitate a decline, let alone a massive one. The fact that Dramath went mad while imprisoned does not mean he decreased as a Force User.

Yet after this, Dramath is able to contend with Vaylin and Arcann alongside the Outlander and attack the spirit of Tenebrae, both dominating him momentarily and wounding him:

Bolded: Dramath's ability to contend with Vaylin and Arcann when he has The Outlander's help does not give him any remote closeness to either. Theron can do the same thing against Vaylin in KOTET Chapter 8 - i.e. being contending with Vaylin when he had The Outlander's help - and he's a non-Force Sensitive.

Underlined: There are multiple rationalisations for this - none of which involve dismissing Child Tenebrae's victory over Dramath:

(1) The attack is unique from any other we've seen in the game. We have no way of assessing how it functions, and it in no way creates any closeness between Dramath and Spirit Valkorion, Arcann, Vaylin, or The Outlander.

(2) Dramath died performing it and did absolutely nothing to Valkorion. He got up, laughed it off, and then proceeded to fight Arcann, Vaylin, and The Outlander.

(3) It's possible Dramath could have grown over his a thousand of years spent in the holocron.

Ultimately, I find the whole performance rather vague, and it doesn't really create the closeness between Dramath and any of the others involved necessary for me to consider placing Kun with The Outlander.

BoD wrote:Which just adds further credibility to the idea that Dramath was taking advantage of Valkorion's overconfidence and had been preparing for centuries to strike at him...and still couldn't do anything more than knock him down for less than 10 seconds.

Agreed.

DarthSkywalker0 wrote:Vol should be a banned character, his range is too large.

Feel free to elaborate. What would you describe as being the "low" range for Vol, given his ability to root himself against Abeloth, and be described as having "much the power" of full-power FotJ Luke Skywalker. Below the Outlander? Based on what?



Given that Luke was already one-paging DE Sidious in sabers, a guy several power leaps above RotS Yoda and in a peak physical body, and would then go on to jump up in power and mastery multiple times over the next few decades until FotJ... the only discrepancy with "range" I see is that Vol is ranked below Yoda in this tournament lol.

As for the Darth Andru scaling, it's also worth noting that Andru was using esoteric abilities to kill Nox, hence the glowing eyes: 



Nox was completely unable to defend against it, with Kallig noting she had walked in "unprepared" and ghosts couldn't be fought without rituals or esoteric abilities:



When Nox learned how to fight them, none of the Sith were capable of resisting her, including Andru and Ergast (who both resisted where their power was strongest) right afterwards:

https://youtu.be/pEDSSCVL5LU?t=655

So no, Andru is not > BoAct 2 Nox at any point. He was relying on esoteric abilities and his immunity to Nox's physical attacks to win. The moment that was eliminated, he was overwhelmed and forcibly absorbed by her despite both Ergast (the creator of the ritual) and Andru (who at least knew of it) resisting as hard as they could. 

Kallig's superiority to Andru is meaningless, as Nox is also demonstrably superior to him.

I've also pointed this out in another thread that AP is well aware of, but Hord considered Aloysius a threat around the time of Yn and Chabosh or after it:



So while Hord was absorbing those spirits and growing stronger and stronger, he viewed Kallig as a threat and even relied on an ambush to kill him, rather than direct combat. 

At best, you have the scaling Tulak Hord ~/> Aloysius Kallig > Andru. BoAct 2 Nox was already clearly > Andru, and that was before her massive growth through consuming 4 (5, depending on your DS choices) ghosts and adding them to her own power. That's also not including her growth between BoAct 2 and SoR.

Also, it's highly likely Hord had Kallig killed after Yn and Chabosh, since he began slaying his rivals as he won more battles (of which Yn and Chabosh were some of the greatest and thus the most likely to make others view him as a threat within the Sith Order): 

Lord of Hate, Master of the Gathering Darkness and Dark Lord of the Sith. These are but a few of the titles worn by the great Tulak Hord. His command of the dark side and mastery of lightsaber techniques won Hord many battles, and each victory earned him enemies abroad and within the Sith ranks. Of the many who challenged his might, none were successful.

I am voting Travgen. He's a random fuck who's only ever mentioned once in the entire lore in an obscure sourcebook. But his accolade puts him at DE Luke level in power, which should be enough to take this spot.

Travgen vs Vol, imo.

Travgen should also be retroactively ranked above Yoda in this tourney, BTW.

Travgen the Gigachad gets my vote. Apparently went under the radar from both Sheev and DE Luke and is the equal of DE Luke during the events of DE II.

Rewarding to see the anti-Slorg Brigade breaking rank and voting for a ~ DE Luke character, showing they're also disagreeing with ILS' case for Vol near FOTJ Luke. 

Been bogged down in classes but my next response to ILS should further beat the dead horse there.

There's an anti-Slorg Brigade? How could anyone be against Slorg? It's such a friendly community.

Baffles me as well.

DarthAnt66 wrote:Rewarding to see the anti-Slorg Brigade breaking rank and voting for a ~ DE Luke character, showing they're also disagreeing with ILS' case for Vol near FOTJ Luke. 

Been bogged down in classes but my next response to ILS should further beat the dead horse there.

I suppose that kind of thing would be rewarding, if you had the mental age of a fourteen year old. 

People on here are weird, I guess.

BoD wrote:There's an anti-Slorg Brigade? How could anyone be against Slorg? It's such a friendly community.

If there is one, I've not been invited to the meetings. Wtf guys.

 
It's not unlike Ant to be unduly paranoid. He takes this pretty seriously.

Speaking about Slorg - what happened to Bart?
Did his heart disease get to him? I miss him.

Ikrit is the most random character possible, and Bart's favorite character according to GOAT, so I'm sure Bart would have voted for him.
I'm voting Ikrit in his honor.
#IStandWithBart

Nom Anor wrote:Speaking about Slorg - what happened to Bart?
Did his heart disease get to him? I miss him.

Travgen is the most random character possible, so I'm sure Bart would have voted for him.
I'm voting Travgen in his honor.
#IStandWithBart

Changing my vote to Nom Anor, due to the fact he has the lowest bodyfat % in the mythos.

Not sure why you had to quote my post, ILS. 
You didn't respond to anything I said in there.

Azronger wrote:I am voting Travgen. He's a random fuck who's only ever mentioned once in the entire lore in an obscure sourcebook. But his accolade puts him at DE Luke level in power, which should be enough to take this spot.

source of that scan? and also i dunno if a character that have like one hyporbolic accolade can be taken into consideration.....

DarthAnt66 wrote:Rewarding to see the anti-Slorg Brigade breaking rank and voting for a ~ DE Luke character, showing they're also disagreeing with ILS' case for Vol near FOTJ Luke. 

Been bogged down in classes but my next response to ILS should further beat the dead horse there.

anti slorg brigade? if so where is the meetings