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King Joker
King Joker
Level One
Level One

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 6:14 am
Hero of Tython.
AA3
AA3
Level Seven
Level Seven

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 9:47 am
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
@Xolthol

I have made a case where I explain why I think that the Outlander is below Unchained Vaylin. By applying the same logic (Valkorion help) I think that the oUtlander is below Darish Vol.

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 1668617588 I very much doubt that.

Observation 1: I've seen your top 15 list, and you have Unchained Vaylin at 5 and The Outlander at 15... which is just utterly absurd. The gap between these characters just isn't wide enough to fit 10 people precisely in between them, some of which you have massive gaps between. Though you clearly think it is, so I ask you: when was the gap ever portrayed as this large? When The Outlander beat Arcann and Vaylin simultaneously in KOTET Chapter 9? Or when he managed to floor/injure Vaylin with the help of Lana Beniko and Theron Shan - if we go by the DS route - in KOTET Chapter 8? Or when The Outlander walked through her final attack and stabbed her, likewise in KOTET Chapter 8? Nothing in KOTET inherently supports a ridiculous gap between Unchained Vaylin and The Outlander - at least not one that can fit 10 characters in it.

Observation 2: Vol's accolades are way too vague in order to slot him precisely in between Vaylin and The Outlander. Tell me, what caused such a specific placement? If you believe Vaylin to have "much the power of Luke Skywalker", why not The Outlander also? It's not like Vol has anything concrete enough to place him precisely in between them, even if there's a fairly large gap, because "much the power of Luke Skywalker" isn't at all fully quantifiable.

Observation 3: You argued there was a massive disparity between Chained Vaylin's planetary level power, and Vol's city-level power last round, and continued arguing such this round:

@Xolthol wrote:Thus this clearly proof that this version of Abeloth is a city-level threat therefore Vol cannot be clearly scale above this and is far below Prime Chained Vaylin who is already more than a planetarian level threat. As a result the gap with Unchained Vaylin and Darish Vol is just gargantuan."

It is utterly absurd to hold this position and simultaneously argue The Outlander is below Vol. For one, he's already clearly above Arcann who stalemated Chained Vaylin, and for two his fights with Unchained Vaylin do not support him being "far below" Chained Vaylin as elaborated on previously in this post.

Conclusion:

-All of The Outlander's feats against Unchained Vaylin don't support the gap you're arguing for which has to be ridiculously large (10 characters all of which have massive gaps in between them large).

-Everything Vol has is too vague, for him to have the precise placement you argue for (i.e. fitting precisely in the gap between Outlander and Vaylin).

-He's below Chained Vaylin - per your own words - who The Outlander scales above.
xolthol
xolthol
Champion of the Light
Champion of the Light

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 11:13 am
Message reputation : 100% (3 votes)
@NotAA3 hmm You seems right. @DarthAnt66 changing my vote for The Outlander
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 12:24 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
To add to what HP said, there's a canon intermission of at least a year between the end of KOTET and Onslaught. Assuming that the Outlander is below Vaylin by the end of KOTET, they're at least close enough in both skill and power to fend off both Arcann and Vaylin at the same time. On top of this, they have then had more than a year to grow even more powerful, facing numerous trials and threats, including a being immensely amped by the power of an alleged planet-killer that can override systems from light years away (Zildrog provided Vinn Atrius with enough power that defeating him caused it to short-circuit and be destroyed, suggesting that the power Zildrog was providing him with was immense). It's hard to imagine that they haven't grown considerably more powerful since KOTET, especially with the emotional - Theron's betrayal, Malgus' survival, losing the Eternal Fleet - and physical - Zildrog, Malgus, Theron - trials they have faced during this period.
Syndiciate
Syndiciate
Level One
Level One

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 1:17 pm
Vol.
DarthSkywalker0
DarthSkywalker0

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 1:23 pm
@Syndiciate wrote:Vol.
Why?
AA3
AA3
Level Seven
Level Seven

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 1:29 pm
@The lord of hunger wrote:Changing My vote for vol

Why did you change to Vol?
DarthSkywalker0
DarthSkywalker0

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 1:30 pm
Vol is so unquantifiable, why is anyone voting for him?
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 1:38 pm
@DarthSkywalker0 wrote:Vol is so unquantifiable, why is anyone voting for him?

well, everyone has different approaches and personal interpretation for the cases done so far. Apparently some people are convinced more with the Vol case and the others are convinced by Outlander's. You can say that Ludo Kreesh is above Sidious and if people are convinced by that, it would not matter. The never changing case of public votes.
DarthSkywalker0
DarthSkywalker0

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 1:50 pm
@HellfireUnit wrote:
@DarthSkywalker0 wrote:Vol is so unquantifiable, why is anyone voting for him?

well, everyone has different approaches and personal interpretation for the cases done so far. Apparently some people are convinced more with the Vol case and the others are convinced by Outlander's. You can say that Ludo Kreesh is above Sidious and if people are convinced by that, it would not matter. The never changing case of public votes.
That’s not an answer just a statement. If Vol is unquantifiable, the approach used would be of little consequence.
Geistalt
Geistalt

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 1:50 pm
Withdrawing my vote.
BreakofDawn
BreakofDawn
Level Seven
Level Seven

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 1:51 pm
I've yet to see an explanation from the Vol camp explaining why any of this puts him beyond the Outlander, who not only has better quantifiable accolades and feats, but also has greater showings of combat skill and has greater experience.


Last edited by BoD on March 29th 2020, 2:08 pm; edited 4 times in total
AA3
AA3
Level Seven
Level Seven

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 1:52 pm
That's not really an explanation, HU. Why have people come to the conclusion - based on the evidence available - that Vol is superior to The Outlander? Outlander has a chain that establishes him as vastly beyond Malgus (see the criteria for the tournament), meanwhile all Vol just has accolades and feats that aren't fully quantifiable. Why does having "much the power of Luke Skywalker" place him above Malgus to the degree The Outlander is? The case is just pure guesswork.
Jake
Jake
Level One
Level One

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 1:59 pm
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
Convincing case from BoD, switching to Vol.
HellfireUnit
HellfireUnit
Level Six
Level Six

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 2:01 pm
Dude what I refer to doesn't specifically involve Vol or Outlander. The tournament is all about public vote and convincing people. You can give straight facts and still may be unable to convince them. Vol can be unquantifiable and yet people may be convinced that he is the best case for the round despite all the odds. Facts or anything else does not matter, it is about reaching to hearts and minds of the men. And we all know that the results of the tournament isn't anywhere near reliable to be honest.
Jake
Jake
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Level One

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 2:04 pm
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
And after that HU post, voting Outlander again.
Geistalt
Geistalt

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 2:06 pm
@Jake wrote:And after that HU post, voting Outlander again.
AA3
AA3
Level Seven
Level Seven

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 2:08 pm
@HellfireUnit

Dude what I refer to doesn't specifically involve Vol or Outlander. The tournament is all about public vote and convincing people. You can give straight facts and still may be unable to convince them. Vol can be unquantifiable and yet people may be convinced that he is the best case for the round despite all the odds. Facts or anything else does not matter, it is about reaching to hearts and minds of the men. And we all know that the results of the tournament isn't anywhere near reliable to be honest.

Again, not an explanation. DS0 was questioning the rationale behind people voting Vol - stating that people come to their own conclusions based on what they've read doesn't explain how they came to that conclusion.
The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 2:09 pm
BoD wrote:I've yet to see an explanation from the Vol camp explaining why any of this puts him beyond the Outlander, who not only has better quantifiable accolades and feats, but also has greater showings of combat skill and has greater experience.
What better accolades and feats, in addition to greater showings of combat skill and greater experience does the Outlander have?

Friendly reminder to explain why they make him better than Vol, rather than just mentioning that they exist.
Geistalt
Geistalt

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 2:13 pm
Killing a planet-killer while exhausted in Dromund Kaas' Dark Temple

Growing substantially from sub-Arcann to being able to floor him

Killing unchained Vaylin when she's Force shoving him back with all her strength
Nom Anor
Nom Anor

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 2:13 pm
Vol.
The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 2:13 pm
The Lost
The Lost
Level Five
Level Five

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 2:20 pm
@Geistalt wrote:Killing unchained Vaylin when she's Force shoving him back with all her strength
You're saying that walking through an unfocused, omnidirectional blast from Vaylin makes The Outlander superior to someone who can block a focused attack from Abeloth?

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 1935072468 ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 1289255181
Geistalt
Geistalt

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 2:24 pm
Considering the planet-killer the Hero of Tython killed while massively pre-prime had TK capable of collapsing the Dark Temple

and Vaylin had TK capable of destroying the Nathema sanctuary off-planet

yes.
DarthSkywalker0
DarthSkywalker0

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 Empty Re: ★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol

March 29th 2020, 2:28 pm
ILS wrote:
@DarthSkywalker0 wrote:Vol should be a banned character, his range is too large.
Feel free to elaborate. What would you describe as being the "low" range for Vol, given his ability to root himself against Abeloth, and be described as having "much the power" of full-power FotJ Luke Skywalker. Below the Outlander? Based on what?

★ Top Fifteen Tournament #11 - Darish Vol - Page 11 39523600

Given that Luke was already one-paging DE Sidious in sabers, a guy several power leaps above RotS Yoda and in a peak physical body, and would then go on to jump up in power and mastery multiple times over the next few decades until FotJ... the only discrepancy with "range" I see is that Vol is ranked below Yoda in this tournament lol.

Much of the power is too vague of a designation to hold much weight. I think we could just as easily say Jaina has much of the power of Luke, there is no clear percent associated with “much.” It also could just as easily be a relative scale compared to other force users of the era. He rooted himself against Abeloth in a mental war, but that is also fairly unquantifiable given we have no reference point for TK battles within Nemotherapy( or however you spell it).

To be clear, Vol could be above Outlander just as easily as he could be below. That uncertainty is why I think he should be banned and also why I am not voting for him. 

Also on a humorous sidebar, Vol is implied to be out of prime as of FOTJ and recall Vader was the second most powerful man in the galaxy.


Last edited by DarthSkywalker0 on March 29th 2020, 2:30 pm; edited 1 time in total
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