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MasterCilghal
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SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)  Empty SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)

on March 14th 2020, 3:23 pm
SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)  9f61f310

This thread is apart of a larger tournament between 8 Suspect Insight members.



Asajj Ventress As of Dark Disciple. Luke Skywalker as of Return of the Jedi. 

Each introduction can take a maximum of one week to create. Each subsequent post can take a maximum of two weeks to respond. There will be three posts per side. The first post, not including response or sourcing quotes, will have a maximum of 10,000 original characters, the second 17,500, and the third 25,000. Each debater will have a 2,500 finisher. More information about the finishers will come soon. The verdict will be decided by a panel of moderators.

This thread follows all default stipulations listed in the "Guidelines" thread (only applying to canon). Additional rules are as follows:

  • Feats take precedent over directly and indisputably contradicted statements.

  • Quotes are binding and have no expiration date unless directly or subtextually contradicted. For the latter, such a case must be made within the debate itself.



SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)  696e9b10


Last edited by MasterCilghal on March 16th 2020, 1:28 pm; edited 1 time in total
MasterCilghal
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SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)  Empty Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)

on March 14th 2020, 3:24 pm
@IG will be opening. Good luck to both!

_________________
SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)  E8ae7210
HellfireUnit
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SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)  Empty Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)

on March 14th 2020, 3:40 pm
Wishing an enjoyable and thrilling debate for both. Good luck.
IG
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SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)  Empty Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)

on March 14th 2020, 4:16 pm
Message reputation : 100% (4 votes)
Section I - Parity to Vader


As early as The Empire Strikes Back, Luke is capable of giving Vader an astonishingly good fight:



Star Wars Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force wrote:Although he had only briefly been instructed by Yoda, Luke Skywalker showed great power in the force during his duel with Darth Vader on Bespin. He had enough strength to challenge Vader, but Luke was far too hasty. 



This is impressive, as Luke’s loss is mostly attributed to the fact that he’s “hasty”, not to any major skill or power deficit. Luke, despite little formal training, is capable of standing up to one of the most powerful SIth of all time. Luke’s performance against Vader here is evident of his immense power and combat ability. 


On towards the ROTJ fight:


While Fightsaber was published under Legends, it is a canon source, as it is sourced in a canon article:


https://www.starwars.com/news/meet-the-geonosis-jedi (bottom of the page, in sources)



Star Wars Insider #62: Fightsaber wrote:By the time of the Battle of Endor, Luke Skywalker has studied some lightsaber technique from Obi-Wan's journal and greatly advanced his abilities. Without a Master, such advancement would have been impossible for most, but Skywalker's unparalleled aptitude makes him a match for Darth Vader in their fateful duel onboard the second Death Star.




Star Wars Insider #62: Fightsaber wrote:It is only Vader's much greater experience that gives the Dark Lord the dominant edge in battle.



The latter quote is in reference to the fight in ESB, and it, like the first quote that claims Luke can challenge Vader is evidence of no major power or skill deficit in Luke, but rather his relative inexperience. Vader’s vastly superior experience is noted as the “only” thing that gave Vader a “dominant edge” in battle. 


The former quote here clarifies much about Luke’s growth. Luke is capable of learning at an astonishing rate. He only studied “some lightsaber technique” in Obi-Wan’s journal, and “greatly advanced his abilities”. Luke’s growth from ESB to ROTJ is not only an immense growth in power, but also one of skill. Luke goes from putting up a challenge against Vader in ESB to being “a match” for him in ROTJ, over the course of only one year. Vader’s immensely superior experience in combat is what gives him a defining edge in combat over Luke in ESB, yet only a year later, through some little study and no formal training nor Master, Luke makes up the 25+ year gap in experience between himself and Vader. By ROTJ, it is undeniable that Luke has an equal level of skill and power as his father, and Luke’s immense growth and “unparalleled aptitude” in combat advancement make him a force to be reckoned with on the battlefield. 


Section II - Vader is the Supreme Apprentice


In Canon, Vader is the most powerful among Sidious’ apprentices. This is a fact backed up by many sources, among them being intent, feats, and canon sourcebooks. 


First we see Jeremy Barlow, author of Son of Dathomir claim that Vader is superior to Dooku and Maul:



"His power isn’t on Vader’s level, true, or even on Count Dooku’s level — but that never stops him. He stands alongside the Sith Lords only by sheer force of will."



This is furthermore supported by Vader’s feats, such as holding back the ocean’s of Nur:


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=flCeshpEwO4&feature=youtu.be&t=1742


Next, we see this supported in sourcebooks and source material:



The Force Awakens Visual Dictionary wrote:Through his veins courses the bloodline of the most powerful Jedi and Sith, and Ren sees it as his birthright to rule the weaker beings in the galaxy.




Darth Vader 20 wrote:I am the first to restore the Sith to their rightful place in the galaxy. As we planned, the Jedi thought the Sith gone, we were so inconsequential. The pomp of the Jedi, was insufferable. I set the galaxy aflame, my apprentice. I've purged all weakness and impurity. From the ashes, we would have a new age. I learned from the mistakes of my forebears. I used those who were not Sith to achieve my aims.
Any my apprentices ? Darth Maul was a loss, but Darth Tyranus... He was a proton torpedo. He served his purpose and was gone... I had a superior candidate in mind.
--
In that long night, with their technology, we remade you. In this way, we saved the Empire. I would have the apprentice I required

The former quote is evident, Kylo Ren possesses the blood of “the most powerful Jedi and Sith”, and if we take this as “among the most powerful”, Vader still ranks as “among the most powerful” Sith, and Luke the Jedi. The latter quote claims that Tyranus was just a tool to be disposed of, that Vader is far superior to Tyranus. Sidious gets “the apprentice [he] required”, meaning that Vader is naturally superior to Dooku here. 


SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)  MROrhl9UcKc7ukH1pTgi8ax3jB0UgPtM5leQI3WmJdaFqBztjvNTlsCz0oUuuTfqiEACZYecYIQ9dhtcYvVLV-EWLA_UkCSJ75VbeUj1LV33VdKdXKfqzH9t2YOi2Lgl5Vd_wP7W


The list ranks “Red lightsaber wielders” by their overall combat skill, not simply their technical skill with a saber. It clearly establishes that Vader is the supreme red lightsaber wielder, and that Tyranus (and Ventress) are his inferiors. We evidently see here that Vader is simply better than Dooku and Ventress. 


Section III - Weakness of Ventress


In Dark Disciple, Ventress is killed by Count Dooku:



Dark Disciple wrote:Dooku stood, his teeth bared in a savage snarl of victory. Ventress was caught in the most violent bolts of Force lightning Vos had ever seen. They danced and crackled about her hungrily, almost like living creatures. Her body spasmed and her face contorted into a mask of absolute agony. Blood trickled from her ears, eyes, and nose.



This is objectively a showing of inferiority, Ventress is, no matter what, weaker than Dooku. Vader is more powerful than Dooku, per a wealth of sources, and logically then, his son, being his equal should be as well. 


Section IV - A Masterful Performance


The Grand Inquisitor is described as being upset that someone of “his skill was not allowed access to the higher councils”, implying that he’s among the best in the order:


SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)  XILXJoLksc9zIJ9KVhk9whPs02A7u6H0eAapJhxeX1ZK-Xn9FIs_kvuk-u-YEGPODG6bUTqtW22HzOrffD4yiVH8yBB6yEbGNdbv3Mgnx9AFW9RvRVp00yVOzzuIJqqXu1bVk_1y


This is how Vader fares against the GI while vastly pre prime:
SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)  QYz5sQ9v5Hy-6tnSPJ_Lsf6NG9xW2avl-HD0MJ37mdk4DEp8mAuyiauULWEhXLMpKVX4Aq1Hy_DvJa6iHIZNVcjCpldcDlg1UUbTa8UeBam35lTayLtfQo4ZqHirPUkNzg1dSYjB


Ventress claims, “Vos had been a Jedi Master, and while she had defeated such before, the battle was never easily won”, meaning that defeating a Jedi Master is a difficult task for Ventress. Vader defeats a Jedi Master, now more powerful because of his turn to the dark with complete ease, all while extraordinarily pre prime. In this comparison, Ventress clearly comes off as far, far worse. 


Conclusion


From the very beginning, there’s a wealth of evidence in favor of Luke here. To reiterate:



  • Luke is an equal or superior to Vader. 
  • Vader is the most powerful of Sidious’ apprentices, including Dooku, to whom Ventress is inferior.
  • Luke’s incredible growth and learning rate give him an edge over Ventress, and his ability to negate an opponent’s superior experience also gives him an edge.



@”Fated Xtasy” Your move.


@KelDorianUnit

Character Count: 3667/10000 (Excluding spaces, 4395 included)
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SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)  Empty Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)

on March 17th 2020, 9:36 am
@IG great post TAEP
Fated Xtasy
Fated Xtasy

SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)  Empty Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)

on March 20th 2020, 1:34 am
SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)  Image3
"Now you die."
Section 1: The Basics




Allow me to start by thanking both my opponent, as well as MasterClighal. IG, I hope you'll find me a worthy opponent.


As a Jedi Padawan, Asajj Ventress was trained in the classical ways of the Jedi Order, though she lost her master, Ky Narec, she furthered her knowledge of the Force when she was taken by Dooku as his Acolyte, then thrown into constant warfare as a commanding officer within the Separatist ranks. Indeed, the constant strife would see Ventress' skills being constantly put to the test against the fledgling talents—as well as the most prestigious members—of the Jedi Order. Ventress's combative experience in the Clone/Separatist War, as well as her classical training under Force Users such as Ky Narec and Count Dooku, are a contrast to Luke's upbringing which severely lacked both the thorough and wide-ranging training afforded to her by both Jedi and Sith masters. For example, Ventress's training under Ky Narec garnered her great renown.





Ventress nodded and clenched her teeth for a moment. Sorrow gripped her heart, and she let it. \"For ten years, we helped the people of Rattatak. We became heroes-to most. But to some, we were the enemy." wrote:—Star Wars: Dark Disciple



Also, during the early days of the Clone Wars, Ventress completely outmaneuvers Jedi Master, Tholme in what is described as a brutal battle





One of them was Master Tholme. Despite himself, Vos gasped slightly. He was surprised at how painful it was to behold an image of his Master. Tholme's gray-streaked black hair was held back in a long ponytail. He stood his ground, his lightsaber, green as Vos's own, a blur as he shouted out orders and cut down battle droids. Suddenly there came two flashes of red. A woman-bald, pale as the stars, clad in black leather and expertly wielding twin lightsabers, appeared. Asajj Ventress. The Jedi and the Sith acolyte engaged in a heated fight. Ventress's lightsabers had unusually curved hilts, so that she needed to wield them in a slightly different manner from the standard, straight lightsabers. Vos watched, forgetting to breathe, horrified but unable to tear his gaze away from the brutal spectacle. Then, so swiftly Vos couldn't even see what happened, Ventress had gotten the upper hand. Tholme's lightsaber went flying. Ventress pointed both her weapons at Tholme. He raised his hands and knelt before her. wrote:—Star Wars: Dark Disciple



Let's make one thing clear, the disparity in the quality of opponents that Canon Luke and Asajj have faced in their respective eras is, to put it bluntly, colossal, facing foes like Sergeant Kreel/Gamemaster, General Kanchar, and Thane Markona early on pale in comparison to Ventress' own early feats in the war. Indeed, even Luke's early skirmish with Boba Fett could be considered, frankly, pathetic. While I understand that the iteration of Luke that I am referring to is not necessarily the same Luke that Ventress is facing in this showdown, it still serves to accentuate my point, which is this, on one side we see Ventress being able to outmaneuver, outpace and outclass a Jedi Master in what is described as a brutal duel before her prime, on the other side of the spectrum we see Luke struggling to best a non-force sensitive like Kreel on multiple occasions , in addition, we've also witnessed Luke display some parity with Markona (in a sparring match). It seems a bit tame for a Skywalker if you ask me.


 I don't want to downplay Luke's abilities, he's an impressive and talented individual in his own right. However, we must take into consideration the type of war(s) Luke and Ventress took part in as they had a profound effect on their personal growth, as well as the specialized skills Luke/Ventress would come to develop as they move on to their respective primes. Luke was fighting in a war where the Jedi numbered in one, and the Sith in two, he fought in battlefields where the common enemy was not a force user, but rather, a common man beneath a white helmet. Although his aptitude allowed him to hold off Vader, ultimately, Luke was quite easily dismissed:

“In their first duel, Darth Vader easily bests the hot-headed, untested Luke, slicing off his right hand. After barely escaping with his life, the young rebel has a new robotic hand-fitted.” wrote: —Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need To Know




Enter Ventress, who was fighting a series of battles that could arguably be described as a war between equals, in a time when the Jedi were many, as such Ventress was afforded a multitude of Jedi opponents, each ranging in skill, power, and potential, these constant engagements with Jedi who utilized various Lightsaber forms as well as abilities, imbued Ventress with a versatility similar to Vader's own, it's this protean nature of Ventress that grants her a great advantage over the likes of Skywalker.


Section 2: Promising from the Start



Before I go on I want to make something clear so that my argument does not become misconstrued: no one more than I firmly believes that Skywalker's potential far exceeds that of nearly every other known character within the Star Wars mythos. But with that out of the way, I want to begin by taking a look into Ventress's promise before, and early on, in the Clone Wars.


First, from a young age, Jedi Master Ky Narec recognizes Asajj Ventress’s potential when he mesmerizingly states.


You are strong in the Force, little one. wrote:Star Wars: The Clone Wars: Season 3: Episode 12: Nightsisters




Count Dooku seems to share the same sentiment as Narec after he finds Asajj on Rattatak.



“When he found her, Dooku immediately recognized her potential.” wrote:—Star Wars: Collapse of the Republic




Dooku remarks to Quinlan Vos that Ventress continued to grow in strength early in her career.


Ventress was a fair apprentice,\" Dooku continued. "However, as she became more powerful, her lust for bloodshed could not be sated. She grew ever more violent and unpredictable. wrote:—Star Wars: Dark Disciple







Though these quotes are meager in quantity they alone provide so much quality, as they allow us a brief, crucial glimpse into Asajj’s skills before, as well as early in, the Clone Wars. This is particularly important as Ventress would continue to grow in power over the three years of the Clone Wars. For example, she is considered so much of a threat by Ahsoka Tano, that she goes on to say this to a Jedi Master:


“Master, all due respect, but Ventress is too powerful for anyone Jedi to fight alone.” wrote:—Star Wars: The Clone Wars: Season 1: Episode 9: Cloak of Darkness





This quote infers that Ahsoka has no doubt heard about Ventress’ renown throughout the galaxy as a Jedi Killer, as well as, experienced Ventress’s skill first hand before this episode of the Clone Wars. While this quote, when taken out of context could be an indication of a Padawan greatly underestimating the skills of a Jedi Master due to their own experience, the point falls flat when Luminara Unduli herself agrees with Ahsoka’s earlier assessment of Ventress’s power. 








Let me remind you, IG, that this iteration of Ventress isn’t even at her peak yet. However, we are seeing just how powerful she is, even in an intermediate state. Now I’ve spoken at length about Ventress’ novice stage, however now I want to take a brief glimpse at an iteration of her closer to her prime. Despite Ventress’s continued growth under Dooku, and already impressive abilities she is able to continue to grow under Talzin, furthering her power.





“ The Nightsisters are a mysterious sect of warrior witches who tap into the ancient dark Force magicks to help deceive enemies. Ventress learns a great deal from their mystical leader, Mother Talzin.” —Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need to Know wrote:—Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need to Know



Allow me to reiterate one thing: Luke’s potential far exceeds that of nearly all of the characters in this mythos. While this remains true, we must take into consideration the level of potential Luke has vs the level he is currently at during ROTJ—which is something of an unknown factor. Conversely, Ventress possesses clear and concise quotes regarding the potential she has vs the potential she achieved. So while Luke may (and does) eventually become more powerful, Ventress is still more powerful as of Dark Disciple.


Section 3: Enemy of All

I hope you will humor me as I post a few minor quotes regarding the lethality of Asajj Ventress.



“Asajj Ventress is a lethal Nightsister witch with a dangerously close connection to the dark side of the Force.” wrote:Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need To Know








“Talzin took in Asajj Ventress after Count Dooku betrayed Asajj, and agreed to help this prodigal Nightsister avenger herself.” wrote:—Star Wars: Databanks: Dathomir



“Aboard the cruiser, she dueled Luminara Unduli, who underestimated Ventress and was overwhelmed by her savage fury.” wrote:—Star Wars: Databanks: Asajj Ventress




Ventress holds the impressive distinction of having fought the legends of both Jedi and Sith Orders of her respective era, this is particularly impressive since the only other characters in the entire mythos to hold this distinction is Darth Maul, and to a surprisingly lesser degree, Darth Vader. At this point in the new canon, I imagine we’ve all watched TCW, so in the interest of time, I am simply going to list Asajj’s foes rather than post links.



  • Ahsoka Tano
  • Anakin Skywalker
  • Obi-Wan
  • Quinlan Vos
  • Luminara Unduli
  • Grievous
  • Savage Opress
  • Darth Maul
  • Count Dooku


Ventress is among the very few who have fought such impressive figures during the Clone Wars, fewer still have fought legends from both sides of the spectrum. Ventress’s experience with so many skilled, powerful and veteran warriors truly eclipses Skywalker’s limited exposure to force users. Let’s face facts, there is a tremendous disparity between Ventress and Skywalker, the only thing that even remotely allows you to close the gap between them is Vader. However Skywalker’s performances before ROTJ are rather lacking, He struggled against a non-force user on multiple occasions, was easily bested by Vader during ESB, and his performance during his rematch with Vader is circumstantial at best due in no small part to the conflict between father and son. Even if one were to discard the “conflicted” argument often used against Skywalker, you would have to be able to prove that Skywalker would be able to enter the same mindset he was in during ROTJ wherein he was utilizing the Dark Side against Vader when Vader mentioned Leia as stated in the ROTJ canon novelization.

Conclusion




Ventress is simply too powerful, too experienced, and too skilled. Skywalker would be unprepared and inexperienced to face Ventress, and without a reason to draw on the Dark Side of the Force, Skywalker would not be afforded the same advantage he had with Vader. I look forward to your response, IG.

Character Count: 9928(including quotes cuz I'm a dummy lol)
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Excluding Spaces: 8296
IG
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SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)  Empty Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)

on March 20th 2020, 10:30 am
Section I - Greater Power and Potential



Allow me to start by thanking both my opponent, as well as MasterClighal. IG, I hope you'll find me a worthy opponent.



As a Jedi Padawan, Asajj Ventress was trained in the classical ways of the Jedi Order, though she lost her master, Ky Narec, she furthered her knowledge of the Force when she was taken by Dooku as his Acolyte, then thrown into constant warfare as a commanding officer within the Separatist ranks. Indeed, the constant strife would see Ventress' skills being constantly put to the test against the fledgling talents—as well as the most prestigious members—of the Jedi Order. Ventress's combative experience in the Clone/Separatist War, as well as her classical training under Force Users such as Ky Narec and Count Dooku, are a contrast to Luke's upbringing which severely lacked both the thorough and wide-ranging training afforded to her by both Jedi and Sith masters. For example, Ventress's training under Ky Narec garnered her great renown.




Likewise, Xtasy, I hope you find me a worthy opponent as well. 


Why does Luke’s lack of a formal training like what Ventress received matter here? Luke’s largely self-taught, yeah, but he was also trained underneath the likes of Ben Kenobi and Yoda, two of the greatest masters of the Old Republic, far greater than the likes of Ky Narec and even Count Dooku. 


When Luke returns to Yoda in Return of the Jedi to complete his Jedi training, Yoda tells him, “No more training do you require. Already know, that which you need”. Yoda considers Luke’s training complete, and Luke sufficient to defeat Vader at this stage. Consider that Yoda himself thinks Luke not ready enough to defeat Vader as of ESB, but as of ROTJ thinks Luke needs no more training, and that Luke’s fully ready to take on his father… and win.



Let's make one thing clear, the disparity in the quality of opponents that Canon Luke and Asajj have faced in their respective eras is, to put it bluntly, colossal, facing foes like Sergeant Kreel/Gamemaster, General Kanchar, and Thane Markona early on pale in comparison to Ventress' own early feats in the war. Indeed, even Luke's early skirmish with Boba Fett could be considered, frankly, pathetic. While I understand that the iteration of Luke that I am referring to is not necessarily the same Luke that Ventress is facing in this showdown, it still serves to accentuate my point, which is this, on one side we see Ventress being able to outmaneuver, outpace and outclass a Jedi Master in what is described as a brutal duel before her prime, on the other side of the spectrum we see Luke struggling to best a non-force sensitive like Kreel on multiple occasions , in addition, we've also witnessed Luke display some parity with Markona (in a sparring match). It seems a bit tame for a Skywalker if you ask me.



Yes, Luke pre-ESB, with literally no training in the force, whatsoever, is struggling with foes, in sharp contrast to Ventress’ years of training allowing her to fight masters. This fight would be a mismatch, were we fighting Ventress vs. Pre-ESB Luke, sure, but it’s ROTJ Luke that you are debating against, not pre-ESB Luke, and thus none of these arguments matter. Luke’s a Skywalker, and as you yourself acknowledge, they have the most immense growth rates in SW. Anakin’s growth during the Clone Wars immensely eclipses his 10 years of growth from TPM to AOTC, and Luke is no different. His growth across ESB and then beyond towards ROTJ makes his growth from ANH to BoESB look like nothing. 


You use Luke’s showing against Kreel as a bad thing, which it is, in a way, but you missed the second scan, the one right after it:


SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)  1a3aEO3TAjZ-6KeExL1v5h_u4-65AQpRlHVOP02wWVfL3P-RToxF6RUfx-sUiFgoU8Liqgseu7aBLr-rP-7N6s1xSCY8ofUA6mgQ0NiXAPByNiwkxlrZoQO7pLdobATXaegNZB35


Han specifically notes, “The whole ship just shuddered. I’m not sure how much longer this old girl’s gonna hold together”. This is important for two reasons, (A) It’s not just a small TK wave Luke sends out that shudders the ship a little bit, it’s pretty big, and (B) Luke’s use of TK is enough that Han declares that he isn’t sure if the ship can hold much longer given Luke’s blast, a fact to which Vader himself replies “The force is definitely strong with young Skywalker”. Simply put, Luke is ridiculously strong with the force, even pre-ESB, but without proper training he’s not able to utilize it as well in combat as he should. We see that after some training, in ESB, he’s able to give Vader a terrific fight, and he’s furthermore able to match Vader on the Second Death Star during ROTJ, as I’ve substantiated. 



 I don't want to downplay Luke's abilities, he's an impressive and talented individual in his own right. However, we must take into consideration the type of war(s) Luke and Ventress took part in as they had a profound effect on their personal growth, as well as the specialized skills Luke/Ventress would come to develop as they move on to their respective primes. Luke was fighting in a war where the Jedi numbered in one, and the Sith in two, he fought in battlefields where the common enemy was not a force user, but rather, a common man beneath a white helmet. Although his aptitude allowed him to hold off Vader, ultimately, Luke was quite easily dismissed:



Given we have contradicting evidence, we have to take into account two factors, (A) When they were released, and (B) who wrote them. Your source, Absolutely Everything You Need to Know was released in 2015, written by Adam Bray. My source, Star Wars Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force was released in 2018, written by Pablo Hidalgo. On both counts, my source supersedes yours. Given the later release date, my source retcons yours, plus it’s written by Hidalgo, a member of Lucasfilm’s Story Group, and thus has more canonical weight than something written by a random author. My source says Luke’s loss is mainly due to his hastiness, an idea ratified by Fightsaber, which dictates that Vader’s experience is what gave him such a massive advantage over Luke in ESB, and Luke’s inexperience led to his fall. 



Enter Ventress, who was fighting a series of battles that could arguably be described as a war between equals, in a time when the Jedi were many, as such Ventress was afforded a multitude of Jedi opponents, each ranging in skill, power, and potential, these constant engagements with Jedi who utilized various Lightsaber forms as well as abilities, imbued Ventress with a versatility similar to Vader's own, it's this protean nature of Ventress that grants her a great advantage over the likes of Skywalker.



While Ventress is a versatile opponent, she’s not near as versatile as Luke himself. Luke is capable of learning quickly mid-battle, and his “unparalleled aptitude” is what gives him such a massive advantage over Ventress. While (doubtfully, given Luke’s massive raw power advantage) Ventress may take a small advantage early on, Luke can learn to adapt to Ventress’ style and take her out either way. 


Section II - Promising, But Useless Nonetheless



This quote infers that Ahsoka has no doubt heard about Ventress’ renown throughout the galaxy as a Jedi Killer, as well as, experienced Ventress’s skill first hand before this episode of the Clone Wars. While this quote, when taken out of context could be an indication of a Padawan greatly underestimating the skills of a Jedi Master due to their own experience, the point falls flat when Luminara Unduli herself agrees with Ahsoka’s earlier assessment of Ventress’s power. 



Which makes no sense when we see Yoda utterly obliterating Ventress early on, the same iteration of Ventress that Ahsoka refers to . It’s clear that they’re buying off of Ventress’ hype. Either way, this pales in comparison to Luke’s fights with Vader. 



Let me remind you, IG, that this iteration of Ventress isn’t even at her peak yet. However, we are seeing just how powerful she is, even in an intermediate state. Now I’ve spoken at length about Ventress’ novice stage, however now I want to take a brief glimpse at an iteration of her closer to her prime. Despite Ventress’s continued growth under Dooku, and already impressive abilities she is able to continue to grow under Talzin, furthering her power.



Literally all the “low showings” you’ve shown for Luke are so immensely pre-prime that it’s irrelevant. Like, I don’t know why you’d consider that a fair argument here, it’s like me providing a random low-showing for Ventress that’s immensely pre-prime and saying “this is Ventress, Luke’s better”. 


Ventress is impressive, but Luke’s just much, much more impressive. 



Allow me to reiterate one thing: Luke’s potential far exceeds that of nearly all of the characters in this mythos. While this remains true, we must take into consideration the level of potential Luke has vs the level he is currently at during ROTJ—which is something of an unknown factor. Conversely, Ventress possesses clear and concise quotes regarding the potential she has vs the potential she achieved. So while Luke may (and does) eventually become more powerful, Ventress is still more powerful as of Dark Disciple.



That’s not the point though. Luke’s potential is enormous, thus his growth rate, as he’s probably the greatest prodigy in the mythos is immense. All the bad showings you’ve provided for Luke are pre-ESB, before he was trained and before he experienced mega-growth allowing him to compete with the likes of Vader. 


Section III - Losing to All



Ventress holds the impressive distinction of having fought the legends of both Jedi and Sith Orders of her respective era, this is particularly impressive since the only other characters in the entire mythos to hold this distinction is Darth Maul, and to a surprisingly lesser degree, Darth Vader. At this point in the new canon, I imagine we’ve all watched TCW, so in the interest of time, I am simply going to list Asajj’s foes rather than post links.



You bring up all these showings as if they’re amazing, but then Ventress basically gets stomped by Dooku, scarcely matches an out-of-practice Maul, weakened by his legs, before retreating. That’s not an impressive showing in the slightest. 



Ventress is among the very few who have fought such impressive figures during the Clone Wars, fewer still have fought legends from both sides of the spectrum. Ventress’s experience with so many skilled, powerful and veteran warriors truly eclipses Skywalker’s limited exposure to force users. Let’s face facts, there is a tremendous disparity between Ventress and Skywalker, the only thing that even remotely allows you to close the gap between them is Vader. However Skywalker’s performances before ROTJ are rather lacking, He struggled against a non-force user on multiple occasions, was easily bested by Vader during ESB, and his performance during his rematch with Vader is circumstantial at best due in no small part to the conflict between father and son. Even if one were to discard the “conflicted” argument often used against Skywalker, you would have to be able to prove that Skywalker would be able to enter the same mindset he was in during ROTJ wherein he was utilizing the Dark Side against Vader when Vader mentioned Leia as stated in the ROTJ canon novelization.



Luke fights Vader and is a “challenge”, to the point where his own inexperience and hastiness are his downfall. Luke fights Vader, and is noted as his “match”, or equal by an OOU source in Fightsaber, irrespective of outside circumstances. In fact, if we are to argue conflict plays a role, then Vader is not conflicted, but rather Luke. Vader explicitly states, “There is no conflict”, when Luke says he senses some in his son. Vader goes all out against Luke, and Luke in fact, can be said to have been conflicted and holding back, as it’s stated, “He [Luke] had not set out to conquer, but rather to redeem the good in his father”. Luke’s fighting as an equal with Vader before he’s enraged. Xtasy, you note that Luke’s only fighting Vader as an equal when he’s enraged after Vader brings up Leia, but that’s not true. Luke’s fighting as an equal long before. He matches Vader in bladelock towards the beginning of the fight (link ), then fights evenly with him for a while before he becomes enraged (link ). This, combined with the Fightsaber quote, combined with the idea Luke may have been holding back is an undeniable showing of equality. There’s no avoidance of it, the idea Luke is close to Vader based on ESB, and how Luke’s relative experience + hastiness screwed him over, as well as his performance against Vader in ROTJ, denoting parity shows how he’s just so much more powerful than Ventress. 


Conclusion



Ventress is simply too powerful, too experienced, and too skilled. Skywalker would be unprepared and inexperienced to face Ventress, and without a reason to draw on the Dark Side of the Force, Skywalker would not be afforded the same advantage he had with Vader. I look forward to your response, IG.




To contrast, Luke is simply too powerful for Ventress to really put up a fight. His ability to learn on the go, ability to stalemate Vader, and put up an outstanding fight, even injuring Vader while pre-prime are all indications of his immense superiority over Ventress. Luke at base is capable of fighting as he had against Vader during the former half of their fight, as an equal, something that already makes him much better than Ventress. Combine this with his versatility from his informal training and you have someone that’s simply too much for Ventress to deal with.

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on March 20th 2020, 10:31 am
@HellfireUnit@"Fated Xtasy" @xolthol
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on March 20th 2020, 11:34 am
great posts for both of you
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on March 20th 2020, 4:21 pm
@IG @Fated Xtasy Great post from both of you.
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on April 8th 2020, 3:00 am
@IG wrote:Why does Luke’s lack of a formal training like what Ventress received matter here? Luke’s largely self-taught, yeah, but he was also trained underneath the likes of Ben Kenobi and Yoda, two of the greatest masters of the Old Republic, far greater than the likes of Ky Narec and even Count Dooku. 

You misunderstand, I am not arguing the abilities of their respective master, but rather the training they were given in their respective eras.

@IG wrote:

When Luke returns to Yoda in Return of the Jedi to complete his Jedi training, Yoda tells him, “No more training do you require. Already know, that which you need”. Yoda considers Luke’s training complete, and Luke sufficient to defeat Vader at this stage. Consider that Yoda himself thinks Luke not ready enough to defeat Vader as of ESB, but as of ROTJ thinks Luke needs no more training, and that Luke’s fully ready to take on his father… and win.

Luke trained under Kenobi for a literal day, even that is a little too gracious. As for Yoda, Luke trained with him briefly and then left to fight Vader... lost then proceeded to return only after the events of ESB+ the Star Wars 2020 comic. Holistically he possesses the same skill set now(ROTJ) as he did then. The difference between Skywalker and Ventress is this, we have seen Asajj Ventress grow in power as she trained under Dooku. Additionally, there are no “blank spaces'' in her career that would force us as debaters to fill in the aforementioned blanks with assumptions and speculation because the statements made by both the omniscient narrator as well as certain characters within mythos align perfectly with Asajj’s skill set, level, and power as of Dark Disciple. Ergo she has, for the most part, remained entirely consistent. This isn’t your fault, Luke is still being developed by the Lucas story group. However, given then there’s a span of six months between the events of ESB and ROTJ there’s a blank space in Luke’s career that we could only fill with our assumptions, not facts.


@IG wrote:
Han specifically notes, “The whole ship just shuddered. I’m not sure how much longer this old girl’s gonna hold together”. This is important for two reasons, (A) It’s not just a small TK wave Luke sends out that shudders the ship a little bit, it’s pretty big.

That would be incredibly impressive was the shuttle not damaged prior to the ]battleFurthermore, here is a wealth of evidence showcasing the damage done to the Harbinger

Let's put aside the fact that the Destroyer was severely damaged in a battle prior to when this event occurred as well as the fact that the Destroyer was currently engaged in a battle against Empire while damaged. Luke TK’ed a non-Force Sensitive with no real means of defending himself. Moreover, despite making the damaged destroyer “shudder.” Skywalker’s TK was unable to kill the aforementioned non-force sensitive. I fail to see how you find this feat of making a destroyer “Shudder” but failing to kill a literal human impressive. Ventress, in contrast, has held off the Likes of Luminara Unduli early on in the Clone Wars(Barriss Offee, the Padawan of revered Jedi Master Luminara Unduli, serves with distinction during the Clone Wars until she turns on the Republic in a shocking act of betrayal. Ultimate Star Wars). 


Conversely, Asajj has been able to utilize her force abilities against actual Force Users to various degrees,


She's utilized it against the chosen one himself on multiple occasions
SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)  V42I2I

In addition, whereas before she required the assistance of her former Master to shove Savage Opress away, during her rescue of Kenobi she is able to TK the brute alone
@IG wrote:
 and (B) Luke’s use of TK is enough that Han declares that he isn’t sure if the ship can hold much longer given Luke’s blast, a fact to which Vader himself replies “The force is definitely strong with young Skywalker”.



SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)  Lukera10
It’s an interesting feat, to say the least, but it would be more impressive had the ship not been buckling under an Imperial Assault or previously damaged or simply dead weight in space as I’ve showcased in the examples above. Even then, Skywalker never truly utilizes the force to this degree again in the entirety of the OT comic line nor even after ROTJ(see Shattered Empire). Considering the context of the situation wherein Luke was bested by Kreel, I’d say it goes without saying that Luke utilized the force in a fit of rage or desperation at the very least in this scenario.


@IG wrote:
Simply put, Luke is ridiculously strong with the force, even pre-ESB, but without proper training he’s not able to utilize it as well in combat as he should. We see that after some training, in ESB, he’s able to give Vader a terrific fight, and he’s furthermore able to match Vader on the Second Death Star during ROTJ, as I’ve substantiated. 


While I concur with the statement made regarding Luke being without proper training, you’re being too generous with Luke’s performance during the ESB duel. While Skywalker certainly impressed Vader with his agility calling it a “terrific” fight is disingenuous. Firstly in the canon Star Wars ESB novel, Kenobi states this much after Yoda’s death.





Star Wars: Return of the Jedi Novelization wrote:

“Vader humbled you when first you met him, Luke - but that experience was part of your training. It taught you, among other things, the value of patience. Had you not been so impatient to defeat Vader then, you could have finished your training here with Yoda. You would have been prepared.”

Concordantly, the Star Wars New Canon Junior Novelization of ROTJ states the following prior to Yoda’s death.


Star Wars: Return of the Jedi: Beware the Power of the Dark Side wrote:
It is hard to be weak when you were once strong. Hard to move slowly when all around you is moving too fast.

The Force is out of balance. As the Emperor spreads fear across the galaxy, the dark side grows more and more powerful.

Yoda knows that it is Luke’s destiny, not his, to fight back. Yoda—once a warrior, once the leader of all those who stood against the dark side—can do nothing but wait.

And it has been a long, helpless wait. First he waited while Luke went to Bespin, then while Luke rejoined the rebels, then while Luke went on that insanely risky mission to Tatooine.

Using the Force, he has tried to keep watch over Luke, but he has only a sense of what his runaway pupil has been through.

Yet now he senses that Luke is finally returning. And he is relieved. Because he could not have waited much longer.

Already he has used the Force to prolong his life beyond what is natural. Beyond what is comfortable and almost beyond what is endurable. His small body has long ago worn out.

But he refuses to pass on.

Not until he can play his last part in this great galactic struggle.

All he has left are a few pieces of wisdom that might help Luke.

This piece of information flat out tells us two things. One, Vader absolutely humbled Luke. Two  Yoda didn’t part any super special information or Jedi moves on Skywalker, but rather simple words nothing more. It’s not too far out there to say that Luke’s skillset has remained roughly the same since his first days on dagobah.


@IG wrote:
Given we have contradicting evidence, we have to take into account two factors, (A) When they were released, and (B) who wrote them. Your source, Absolutely Everything You Need to Know was released in 2015, written by Adam Bray. My source, Star Wars Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force was released in 2018, written by Pablo Hidalgo. On both counts, my source supersedes yours. Given the later release date, my source retcons yours, plus it’s written by Hidalgo, a member of Lucasfilm’s Story Group, and thus has more canonical weight than something written by a random author. My source says Luke’s loss is mainly due to his hastiness, an idea ratified by Fightsaber, which dictates that Vader’s experience is what gave him such a massive advantage over Luke in ESB, and Luke’s inexperience led to his fall. 




Fightsaber is not canon my friend. Unfortunately being used as a source in a canon article doesn’t make something canon IG. The mention of Haruun Kal in Star Wars: Kanan does not make the events of Shatterpoint Canon the mention of the character Soara Antana in Star Wars: Complete locations does not make the entirety of Jedi Quest series canon. it does not work that way.  For example. Absolutely everything you need to know  states the following




Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need to Know wrote:“In 2014 Lucasfilms reclassified what is considered canon in the STAR WARS universe Star Wars: Absolutely Everything You Need to Know draws mostly upon information from the Expanded Universe that Lucasfilm now considers to be “Legends” —that is, stories beyond the original six films and the TV shows Star Wars: The Clone Wars and Star Wars Rebels”


This book states it’s utilizing information from the EU, this does NOT make the EU’s events canon. Additionally, there's an article on SW.com that lists the Book of Sith as a source. Consider this, were we to operate under your mindset/guidelines and consider the Book of Sith a canon source it would create a conundrum for us as debaters as the information therein refers to a wide variety of events that don’t fit into the narrative of this canon universe. Something being used as a source does not make it canon. IG. While your quote is “newer” feats and comments from characters in-universe > ambiguous comments made by a source that was already available in 2010 and reprinted in 2018 with new canon material. SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)  228124001

@IG wrote:While Ventress is a versatile opponent, she’s not near as versatile as Luke himself. Luke is capable of learning quickly mid-battle, and his “unparalleled aptitude” is what gives him such a massive advantage over Ventress. While (doubtfully, given Luke’s massive raw power advantage) Ventress may take a small advantage early on, Luke can learn to adapt to Ventress’ style and take her out either way. 
SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)  Ggwank10


Given that Grievous is outright stated to be able to adapt to fighting styles of any Jedi, which is showcased in his victories against Billaba, Gallia, Tano, Fisto, and Vebb, Grievous should have been able to easily defeat Ventress, yet despite all of his combative mastery, Ventress was able to overcome his adaptive style and best him on Dathomir. Quite frankly, Luke’s ability here is rendered moot by the fact that Ventress very much stomped(you’ll pardon the use of the word in a formal debate.) a similar opponent in Grievous on Dathomir. Ventress is simply too experienced in dealing with all manner of opponents that Luke’s “advantage” will only serve to prolong the battle at best.




Lol, this is Yoda….who’s fighting Asajj early in the Clone Wars…. What’s your point? Chronologically all of her best feats come after the fact?   This is a surprising move, but if we want to go down that path. Luke got “utterly obliterated” by Sidious…. What is the point? These two are titans of the Force that can fully display the full power of their respective sides per Ultimate Star Wars. This an ill-thought-out attack my friend.








@IG wrote:It’s clear that they’re buying off of Ventress’ hype. Either way, this pales in comparison to Luke’s fights with Vader. 


Unfortunately, the burden of proof is on you to educate us on whether this is true.  Have at you.





@IG wrote:That’s not the point though. Luke’s potential is enormous, thus his growth rate, as he’s probably the greatest prodigy in the mythos is immense. 



His potential is enormous, I concur. However, Ventress’s potential was rightly feared by Sidious himself to the point where we’ve all seen he demanded her death Likewise, there are several quotes regarding the scene in question in various sources that outright state Sidious feared her growing power.





Star Wars.Com: Eliminate Her wrote:When Asajj Ventress becomes a threat in Sidious' eyes, he orders Count Dooku to eliminate his personal assassin. Reluctantly, Dooku obeys his Master and leaves Ventress to die.





Star Wars.Com : \"Nightsister" Episode Guide, wrote:Troubled by Asajj Ventress' growing prowess with the dark side of the Force, Darth Sidious commands Count Dooku to eliminate her


Star Wars: Women of the Galaxy wrote:Though Asajj devotes her service to Dooku, the Count is loyal to Darth Sidious, who sees a threat in Asajj's growing power and orders her killed.

Ventress is a threat to all.






@IG wrote:All the bad showings you’ve provided for Luke are pre-ESB, before he was trained and before he experienced mega-growth allowing him to compete with the likes of Vader. 


Compete? He is confirmed to have been wildly outmatched by Vader per Kenobi's quote and while your quotes refer to hastiness it does not at all contradict the idea that Luke's defeat came quite easily to Vader on Cloud City.


IGYou bring up all these showings as if they’re amazing, but then Ventress basically gets stomped by Dooku,

Is that so?

Star Wars.Com: Savage Opress Biography Gallery wrote:Dooku's Sith mastery barely gave him the edge over his former apprentices






Star Wars.Com: Savage Flees Toydaria wrote:After a grueling fight with Count Dooku and Asajj Ventress, Savage batters his way back to the frigate's hangar, 



In a battle described as "grueling" Dooku's knowledge of combat and force abilities was, as the quotes have already stated, "barely" enough to give him an edge against Ventress and Savage. At this point, Ventress thinks little of Savage's skills stating that "He's not ready." And while he can land a disarming blow on the Count, he is still more of a detriment to Asajj than he is a helpful ally considering how throughout the duel Asajj(before Opress going full rage mode) is dodging Opress' clumsy attacks. While she did indeed lose the duel to Dooku afterward. she had just taken part in that "grueling" duel. To have held off as long as she did against Dooku after such an intense battle is impressive, to say the least.




@IG wrote:scarcely matches an out-of-practice Maul, weakened by his legs, before retreating. That’s not an impressive showing in the slightest. 


In the eternal words of one Kyle Katarn. "You're joking right?" Maul has no qualms dealing with the likes of Kenobi during their first duel aboard that ship, nor does Maul have an issue in solidifying his position as the master when he duels Savage. Likewise, he shows no struggle when he duels Kenobi on Florrum. Come now IG, surely even you don't believe that to be an unimpressive feat. While the odds end in favor of the Brothers, Ventress was fairing better against both Brothers than Kenobi was. Despite this, the duo of the Witch and the Negotiator is described as formidable.



Star Wars.Com: Star Wars: The Clone Wars Rewatch: Revenge wrote:Kenobi and Ventress, one chasing Maul and the other chasing the sizable bounty on Savage’s head, make a formidable duo. The witch and the Jedi. Who would have thought?

Regardless of your dismissal of Ventress's battle against Maul, she was fairing extremely well and holding her own.






@IG wrote:Luke fights Vader and is a “challenge”, to the point where his own inexperience and hastiness are his downfall. Luke fights Vader, and is noted as his “match”, or equal by an OOU source in Fightsaber, irrespective of outside circumstances. In fact, if we are to argue conflict plays a role, then Vader is not conflicted, but rather Luke. Vader explicitly states, “There is no conflict”, when Luke says he senses some in his son. 



This wrong though. On Endor, they have a conversation regarding Luke feeling the conflict within Vader which Vader does not deny.  His silence and statement of it being too late for him are an admission of conflict. Even later down the line after their fateful duel, Vader states that Luke was right.  


@IG wrote:Vader goes all out against Luke, and Luke in fact, can be said to have been conflicted and holding back, as it’s stated, “He [Luke] had not set out to conquer, but rather to redeem the good in his father”.




I need you to please cite your sources. On Vader going all out and Skywalker allegedly holding back. Because as it stands you continue to push this argument but lack proof to validate it.



@IG wrote: Luke’s fighting as an equal with Vader before he’s enraged. Xtasy, you note that Luke’s only fighting Vader as an equal when he’s enraged after Vader brings up Leia, but that’s not true. Luke’s fighting as an equal long before. He matches Vader in bladelock towards the beginning of the fight (link ), then fights evenly with him for a while before he becomes enraged (link ).



That's simply not true. We have a quote here stating that Luke broke under the taunts and goading of Emperor Palpatine aboard the second Death Star.





Star Wars.Com: Darth Sidious Biography Gallery wrote:The pressure proved to be much for Luke. He gave into his rage and lashed out at the Emperor.




Likewise, the canon ROTJ novelization supports this fact by stating the following


Star Wars: Return of the Jedi Novelization wrote:Palpatine turned back to Luke - the former, shaking with glee; the latter, with outrage. 'There is no escape, my young pupil. The Alliance will die - as will your friends.' Luke's face was contorted, reflecting his spirit. Vader watched him carefully, as did the Emperor. The lightsaber began to shake on its resting place. The young Jedi's hand was trembling, his lips pulled back in grimace, his teeth grinding. The Emperor smiled. 'Good. I can feel your anger. I am defenseless - take your weapon. Strike me down with all of your hatred, and your journey toward the dark side will be complete.' He laughed, and laughed. Luke was able to resist no longer. The lightsaber rattled violently on the throne a moment, then flew into his hand, impelled by the Force. He ignited it a moment later and swung it with his full weight downward toward the Emperor's skull. In that instant, Vader's blade flashed into view, parrying Luke's attack an inch above the Emperor's head. Sparks flew like forging steel, bathing Palpatine's grinning face in a hellish glare.
 This is further supported by the new junior novelization as well.







Star Wars: Return of the Jedi: Beware the Power of the Dark Side wrote:Luke says nothing. But the Emperor seems to hear a response.
“Good, good. I can feel your anger! Take your weapon! I am defenseless. Strike me down with all your hatred and your journey to the dark side will be complete.”

And Luke does! Or at least he tries to.
In a single motion, he whirls, reaches out with the Force for his lightsaber, fires it up, and swings it down to destroy the Emperor.
But just centimeters from the Emperor’s face a bright red blade blocks it. The Emperor never flinches.
Luke looks up. It’s Vader…his own blazing red lightsaber crackling with energy.
And now the two must fight again.
Blades whirl and clash and spark. Luke crouches low, ready to either dodge or lunge. Vader stands tall and simply pushes forward, driving Luke backward with powerful swings.
But now Luke spins and changes the flow of the attack, surprising Vader who is just a little too slow to turn. Luke rushes in to bring down a mighty two-handed blow. Vader blocks it, but finds himself thrown off balance by the intensity of it. He steps back, not realizing that Luke had driven him to the edge of the stairs.
He falls and Luke is preparing to leap down after him when he hears the Emperor behind him.
“Good. Use your aggressive feelings, boy. Let the hate flow through you.”
Again, the Emperor is telling the truth and Luke knows it. He has won, but only by using the dark side of the Force. The hate is flowing through him and he is winning this battle against his father because of it.
Luke looks down at his father, clambering to his feet at the foot of the stairs. He had told Obi-Wan he couldn’t kill his father…and yet he almost had.
He turns off his lightsaber and at the same time attempts to turn off the hate and anger.
 As you can see, Skywalker is drawing on the dark side of the force throughout their duel and is only able to "best" Vader due to this and not of own his ability. This information doesn't necessarily contradict your quotes that state Luke =/> Vader, but rather solidify the idea that the sole reason for this was only due to Luke giving in to his rage due to the goading of the Emperor as well as Vader. However, Luke is not fighting Vader or the Emperor and given the circumstances or lack thereof he is not going to be afforded the same power boost against Asajj Ventress. 







@IG wrote: This, combined with the Fightsaber quote, combined with the idea Luke may have been holding back is an undeniable showing of equality. There’s no avoidance of it, the idea Luke is close to Vader based on ESB, and how Luke’s relative experience + hastiness screwed him over, as well as his performance against Vader in ROTJ, denoting parity shows how he’s just so much more powerful than Ventress. 
Fightsaber is unequivocally N-Canon. It's about as trustworthy as the lego star wars series. I've already answered and struck back at most of these comments. To summarize, Luke's nastiness and inexperience made him an easy foe for Vader. He's not a peer without having his abilities amplified by the dark side. Luke's performance against Vader is circumstantial. While power, his lack of refinement, inexperience, and lack of amp here will be his downfall. 







@IG wrote:To contrast, Luke is simply too powerful for Ventress to really put up a fight. His ability to learn on the go, ability to stalemate Vader, and put up an outstanding fight, even injuring Vader while pre-prime are all indications of his immense superiority over Ventress. Luke at base is capable of fighting as he had against Vader during the former half of their fight, as an equal, something that already makes him much better than Ventress. Combine this with his versatility from his informal training and you have someone that’s simply too much for Ventress to deal with.

Powerful? yes, Too Powerful? I disagree. Ventress has fought Kenobi and Anakin countless of times two legendary Jedi.


SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)  Ventre11
Source: Star Wars: Women of the Galaxy.

Take note, as she holds the distinction of being the second person in the mythos able to match the combined efforts of Kenobi + Skywalker, with the first being Count Dooku. This distinction, combined with her battles with other Jedi and her duel with the ever adaptive General Grievous have all worked to provide Ventress with an impressive skill set that Luke, frankly, has never encountered before. Asajj is just too well rounded of a Force user, she is a skilled hand to hand combatant, she's capable of applications of the Force mid-combat, her lethality with her dual/staff sabers give her an element of surprise against Skywalker, and her versatility renders the majority of Luke's "advantages" moot. Simply put, Luke would be too unfamiliar with an opponent like Asajj who in contrast is all too familiar with the techniques and styles of Kenobi and Anakin Skywalker among several Jedi. In the end, Luke will fall as all Jedi must...
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on April 8th 2020, 8:16 am
Great post! Mine should be up within the week (hopefully)
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on April 8th 2020, 8:20 am
T4V.
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on April 8th 2020, 9:21 am
@Fated Xtasy Really good post
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on April 9th 2020, 8:27 pm
Growth



Luke trained under Kenobi for a literal day, even that is a little too gracious. As for Yoda, Luke trained with him briefly and then left to fight Vader... lost then proceeded to return only after the events of ESB+ the Star Wars 2020 comic. Holistically he possesses the same skill set now(ROTJ) as he did then. The difference between Skywalker and Ventress is this, we have seen Asajj Ventress grow in power as she trained under Dooku. Additionally, there are no “blank spaces'' in her career that would force us as debaters to fill in the aforementioned blanks with assumptions and speculation because the statements made by both the omniscient narrator as well as certain characters within mythos align perfectly with Asajj’s skill set, level, and power as of Dark Disciple. Ergo she has, for the most part, remained entirely consistent. This isn’t your fault, Luke is still being developed by the Lucas story group. However, given then there’s a span of six months between the events of ESB and ROTJ there’s a blank space in Luke’s career that we could only fill with our assumptions, not facts.



But why is training so important? Luke’s power is immensely superior, a fact that I’ve thoroughly outlined throughout this debate. Luke’s competition with Vader (and later stalemating him) is an immensely better combat feat than anything Ventress has to her name. 


And in terms of Luke’s growth from ESB to ROTJ, we have several statements affirming it. Vader notes Luke is “powerful, stronger than he imagined”, and “astounded by the strength Luke had acquired since their last duel”. Furthermore, Vader notes that Luke’s “timing” is “honed to a thought’s-breadth”. Clearly, this is indicative that Luke has grown immensely, both in skill and power. Vader feels “fear” during his fight with Luke, and “he wanted revenge”, signifying that he’s going all out, because, evident from the very idea of wanting revenge, you’re not holding back. 



In addition, whereas before she required the assistance of her former Master to shove Savage Opress away, during her rescue of Kenobi she is able to TK the brute alone



I fail to see how TKing an off guard Savage is impressive. She just drops out of the air and pushes him away there. 



It’s an interesting feat, to say the least, but it would be more impressive had the ship not been buckling under an Imperial Assault or previously damaged or simply dead weight in space as I’ve showcased in the examples above. Even then, Skywalker never truly utilizes the force to this degree again in the entirety of the OT comic line nor even after ROTJ(see Shattered Empire). Considering the context of the situation wherein Luke was bested by Kreel, I’d say it goes without saying that Luke utilized the force in a fit of rage or desperation at the very least in this scenario.



While there are negative circumstances impacting the ship, a rebuttal claiming Luke is performing inconsistently makes no sense. As I’ve substantiated, he puts up a good fight and then stalemates Darth Vader. Considering that the Force plays an important role in combat (through augmentation), we can scale Luke off of Vader’s immense TK feats, like holding back the Oceans of Nur, among other things. 



While I concur with the statement made regarding Luke being without proper training, you’re being too generous with Luke’s performance during the ESB duel. While Skywalker certainly impressed Vader with his agility calling it a “terrific” fight is disingenuous. Firstly in the canon Star Wars ESB novel, Kenobi states this much after Yoda’s death.



What? To humble another means “to lower (someone) in dignity or importance”. This idea is not mutually exclusive with giving Vader a good fight. Luke is a “challenge” for Vader. Just the term itself implies that it’s a good fight. Kenobi notes that Luke was humbled, which he was, because Luke thought he was strong enough to take on Vader and win. He thought that he could do what his master before him could not, and he was mistaken. I never contested Luke’s loss, only the idea that it was anything near a stomp. Luke learns from his loss, he becomes wiser, matures, all of which are because of his humbling at Vader’s hands. But as I’ve said, this doesn’t contradict Luke being a challenge for Vader, something supported in the source I cited. 



This piece of information flat out tells us two things. One, Vader absolutely humbled Luke. Two  Yoda didn’t part any super special information or Jedi moves on Skywalker, but rather simple words nothing more. It’s not too far out there to say that Luke’s skillset has remained roughly the same since his first days on dagobah.



Except I’ve cited sources and given reasoning as to why Luke has grown immensely since ROTJ. Furthermore, I only claimed that Yoda told Luke that he’s ready to fight Vader, and Yoda knows that Luke’s training is complete. Whether it’s complete through self-study and greater discipline of himself combined with immense growth in power is irrelevant. 



Fightsaber is not canon my friend. Unfortunately being used as a source in a canon article doesn’t make something canon IG. The mention of Haruun Kal in Star Wars: Kanan does not make the events of Shatterpoint Canon the mention of the character Soara Antana in Star Wars: Complete locations does not make the entirety of Jedi Quest series canon. it does not work that way.  For example. Absolutely everything you need to know states the following



I was using Fightsaber as a supplementary source, so your point is mostly irrelevant now that I’ve reinforced my arguments, but the article you link later is explicitly a Legends Article. It’s referencing Tenel Ka, Teneniel Djo, and Charal, among others, all of whom are purely Legends Characters.



While your quote is “newer” feats and comments from characters in-universe > ambiguous comments made by a source that was already available in 2010 and reprinted in 2018 with new canon material. 



Except the reprinting is irrelevant, because this is now a new canon source, which has precedence over your source. No “ambiguous comments” were made, my source clearly outlines Luke being a challenge for Vader. Furthermore, as I’ve said before, being humbled by Vader is not mutually exclusive with giving him a good fight, especially when Luke believed that he’d win. Such a loss, combined with the revelation that Vader is Luke’s father is clearly a humbling experience that will teach Luke not to be as hasty and reckless as he previously was. 


Ventress and Luke v Vader



Given that Grievous is outright stated to be able to adapt to fighting styles of any Jedi, which is showcased in his victories against Billaba, Gallia, Tano, Fisto, and Vebb, Grievous should have been able to easily defeat Ventress, yet despite all of his combative mastery, Ventress was able to overcome his adaptive style and best him on Dathomir. Quite frankly, Luke’s ability here is rendered moot by the fact that Ventress very much stomped(you’ll pardon the use of the word in a formal debate.) a similar opponent in Grievous on Dathomir. Ventress is simply too experienced in dealing with all manner of opponents that Luke’s “advantage” will only serve to prolong the battle at best.



Except Ventress doesn’t stomp him. Dathomir is noted as a nexus, so it should be amping Ventress. Furthermore, Grievous holds an upper hand until the near end of the fight, where he succumbs to Ventress’ insane flurry of blows. As Luke has greater raw power, greater skill, and an ability to adapt quickly, it stands that he’s going to be able to beat Ventress. 



Lol, this is Yoda….who’s fighting Asajj early in the Clone Wars…. What’s your point? Chronologically all of her best feats come after the fact?   This is a surprising move, but if we want to go down that path. Luke got “utterly obliterated” by Sidious…. What is the point? These two are titans of the Force that can fully display the full power of their respective sides per Ultimate Star Wars. This an ill-thought-out attack my friend.



What? I’m claiming that Ahsoka’s comment saying Ventress as of S1 > Any 1 Jedi is outright wrong because of Yoda. The argument you’re making here is basically strawmanning me. 



Unfortunately, the burden of proof is on you to educate us on whether this is true.  Have at you.



I already have though, for the latter point. Read my earlier posts for more info. As for the former, read above. 



His potential is enormous, I concur. However, Ventress’s potential was rightly feared by Sidious himself to the point where we’ve all seen he demanded her death Likewise, there are several quotes regarding the scene in question in various sources that outright state Sidious feared her growing power.



Luke has those quotes too, except they apply to a far more powerful Sidious during ROTJ. 



Return of the Jedi wrote:Luke paused, for he saw something else, as well; something he hadn’t seen before in the Emperor. Fear.
Luke saw fear in the Emperor—fear of Luke. Fear of Luke’s power, fear that this power could be turned on him—on the Emperor—in the same way Vader had turned it on Obi-Wan Kenobi. Luke saw this fear in the Emperor—and he knew, now, the odds had shifted slightly. He had glimpsed the Emperor’s nakedest self.



Furthermore, Sidious considers Ventress a threat because he fears that Dooku and her together could overcome him. But that’s no surprise, Dooku has performed outstandingly against Yoda, Sidious’ equal. It stands then that Dooku and an apprentice of his would be able to defeat Sidious. 



Compete? He is confirmed to have been wildly outmatched by Vader per Kenobi's quote and while your quotes refer to hastiness it does not at all contradict the idea that Luke's defeat came quite easily to Vader on Cloud City.



What? Read the full quote I cited. Luke is a “challenge”. I’ve given this argument earlier in my post as well.



In a battle described as "grueling" Dooku's knowledge of combat and force abilities was, as the quotes have already stated, "barely" enough to give him an edge against Ventress and Savage. At this point, Ventress thinks little of Savage's skills stating that "He's not ready." And while he can land a disarming blow on the Count, he is still more of a detriment to Asajj than he is a helpful ally considering how throughout the duel Asajj(before Opress going full rage mode) is dodging Opress' clumsy attacks. While she did indeed lose the duel to Dooku afterward. she had just taken part in that "grueling" duel. To have held off as long as she did against Dooku after such an intense battle is impressive, to say the least.



She’s basically oneshotted in Dark Disciple, as I’ve cited earlier. Beyond this, Dooku “heaved her [Ventress]  up and sent her sprawling”, to the point where Ventress is “unable to catch herself in time”. Dooku is the one who ultimately kills Ventress while Vos is on her side. 



This wrong though. On Endor, they have a conversation regarding Luke feeling the conflict within Vader which Vader does not deny.   His silence and statement of it being too late for him are an admission of conflict. Even later down the line after their fateful duel, Vader states that Luke was right.   



Except Vader denies the conflict within himself on the Death Star while they fight, claiming “there is no conflict” before he attacks Luke. The ROTJ novelization  fully supports Vader fighting to his fullest. He “did not want to win if the boy was not battling to the fullest. But if winning meant he had to kill a boy who wouldn’t fight… then he could do that too”. When Luke claims Vader is conflicted, it makes Vader “really angry”, and “he must teach this boy a lesson he would never forget, or die learning”. 



I need you to please cite your sources. On Vader going all out and Skywalker allegedly holding back. Because as it stands you continue to push this argument but lack proof to validate it.



The former claim is cited above, the latter is from Star Wars Lightsabers: A Guide to Weapons of the Force



 As you can see, Skywalker is drawing on the dark side of the force throughout their duel and is only able to "best" Vader due to this and not of own his ability. This information doesn't necessarily contradict your quotes that state Luke =/> Vader, but rather solidify the idea that the sole reason for this was only due to Luke giving in to his rage due to the goading of the Emperor as well as Vader. However, Luke is not fighting Vader or the Emperor and given the circumstances or lack thereof he is not going to be afforded the same power boost against Asajj Ventress. 



Yet in the ROTJ novelization itself, Luke “faltered a moment”. He realizes “his brief exultation, his microsecond of dark clarity--gone now, in a wash of indecision, veiled enigma. Cold awakening from a passionate dark flirtation”.  After this Luke declares that he will not fight his father, and he “tried to drive the hatred from his being”. So Luke initially gives in to his rage, but it’s only a flirtation with the dark, not full on driving into it. Afterwards he still performs on par with Vader. Luke starts out a little dark, holds an edge against Vader, drives the dark out, performs evenly, and then goes into a rage and stomps. 



Fightsaber is unequivocally N-Canon. It's about as trustworthy as the lego star wars series. I've already answered and struck back at most of these comments. To summarize, Luke's nastiness and inexperience made him an easy foe for Vader. He's not a peer without having his abilities amplified by the dark side. Luke's performance against Vader is circumstantial. While power, his lack of refinement, inexperience, and lack of amp here will be his downfall. 



All of which are points I have refuted here. Fightsaber aside, Luke has the ability to outright contend with Vader, someone that Ventress has no hope against in his nascent stage during ESB. After immense growth, he’s still able to fight Vader evenly, and only when he truly gives into his anger does he outright stomp Vader. Luke does not truly give into his anger till Vader mentions Leia, as I’ve already brought up. 



Powerful? yes, Too Powerful? I disagree. Ventress has fought Kenobi and Anakin countless of times two legendary Jedi.



But why is this impressive before Vader?. As I’ve substantiated, Ventress is barely anything before ROTS Dooku, who’s capable of taking on the duo alone as well, putting up a great fight. Interestingly, she only takes the duo on together (sans rage amp) in earlier seasons. Thus, the duo she fights is not even nearly comparable to the ROTS iteration of the duo. Ventress just doesn’t have the raw power to compete with Luke. At best she could give him a middling fight, but even that’s much. 


Conclusion

Luke as of ROTJ is capable of stalemating and to a degree outmatching Darth Vader, a foe that’s far, far more powerful than anyone Ventress has ever fought. Luke’s ability to adapt to a foe is going to give him an advantage in the fight, and his power and skill, among other things, are going to lead to his victory over Ventress. Simply put, Ventress hasn’t a chance. 


@Fated Xtasy


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SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)  Empty Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)

on April 9th 2020, 8:29 pm
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SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)  Empty Re: SS- The Canon Tournament- Asajj Ventress (Fated Xtasy) vs Luke Skywalker (IG)

on April 9th 2020, 9:58 pm
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