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A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  - Page 2 Empty Re: A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians

on Sun 15 Mar - 18:58
It is my belief that if a Debater of equal disregard for evidence and honest inquiry had preceded you, then that one had taken his or her terrible arguments to the grave, or had locked them away in archived forum posts that had been destroyed or had yet to surface. Indeed, my little friend, in this regard you appear to be without equal.

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Geistalt
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on Sun 15 Mar - 18:58
@> Korriban wrote:
ILS wrote:if a Debater of equal disregard for evidence and honest inquiry had preceded you, then that one had taken his or her terrible arguments to the grave, or had locked them away in archived forum posts that had been destroyed or had yet to surface.

A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  - Page 2 39523600

Got burned worse then MFV
Who dat
DarthAnt66
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A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  - Page 2 Empty Re: A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians

on Sun 15 Mar - 21:02
Message reputation : 100% (6 votes)
You see, I accepted some of the premises in your blog here due to the fact it is extremely well organized in its presentation.

I encourage you to please follow suit. Your post was woefully jittered, so I took the liberties of organizing everything so it could be better digested and destroyed.

THE BLUE ARGUMENT

In the above quote, Plagueis seeks to extend the state of symbiosis between midichlorians and life, but to him trying to do that is like using a "sponge to dam a raging river". He then states that the ancient Sith were, despite this subsuming of midichlorians into the Force, able to instead "draw on the energies released during death to extend their own lives" - however, "that ancient knowledge had been lost". The key thing to understand here, and more clearly later on, is that Plagueis is confusing two abilities, and frankly, you can be somewhat forgiven for missing this as it did not occur to me until I gave it proper thought myself: Plagueis has heard tales of ancient Sith Lords being able to "draw on the energies released during death", which as you well know is the Force Drain technique which he and Sidious display in 52BBY[hideedit] - however, and this is key, in this specific passage, Plagueis does not equate the drawing on "energies released during death" to the Force Drain technique - in his mind, the Sith of old were able to draw on the midichlorians before they were subsumed into the Force. Hence:

His attempts to save them—to prolong that state of symbiosis—were comparable to using a sponge to dam a raging river. And yet the Sith Lords of old were said to have been able to draw on the energies released during death to extend their own lives, as well as the lives of others. Unfortunately, much like the technique of essence transfer, that ancient knowledge had been lost.

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Refer to the bold red text. Contrary to your hopes, draining the death energies of others, Force drain, and drawing on midichlorians before they were subsumed into the Force are all the same technique. In the Book of Sith endnotes, available on starwars.com, Daniel Wallace explains: “Sever Force. This removes a Jedi’s ability to use the Force, and was introduced in the Tales of the Jedi comics during the 1990s. Given what we’ve learned of the Force since then, I added the detail that this works by triggering a mass die-off of the subject’s midi-chlorians. Recall that Force drain is “a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes. The ancient Sith sever a Force user’s connection between life and the Force, triggering a mass die-off of midichlorians. They then feed on the energy generated when the midichlorians return to their source, i.e. the death energy. In other words, “They draw upon the connections in the Force, and devour it.” 

Plagueis isn’t confusing anything. You are.

THE GREEN ARGUMENT

But Plagueis is clearly wrong, here, because no ancient Sith - whether it be Andeddu, the Dark Jedi Exiles, Ragnos, Sadow, Nadd or Kun - were actually able to extend their lives or survive death with this technique. Andeddu and Muur used Essence Transfer, Ragnos died of old age, Sadow utilized stasis, Nadd possessed his descendants on Onderon as a spirit, and Kun "survived death" as an anchored spirit on Yavin.

Arguing Sadow and Kun did not extend life/survive death through the death energy ability because they ultimately sought preservation by other means is a red herring. For example, we know that Palpatine drains the population of Byss to extend life/survive death--"The entire population feeds me even now, slowly surrendering their life energies to add to mine. The power of Byss will strengthen the body and mind, slowing the decay of crude matter."--despite the fact this is still during his natural life-span and that he ultimately uses Sith technology and essence transfer later. While Palpatine is using drain life instead of drain Force like presumably the ancient Sith, this still reveals that draining others to extend corporeal life can be an observable and verifiable reality at the time of the feat. Accordingly, like I said, the fact Sadow and Kun ultimately use Sith technology and essence transfer respectively is irrelevant to the fact that multiple sources and mediums independently state that Sadow and Kun indeed drained the death energies of others to extend their corporeal lives prior. Further, as extensively stated in my blog and subsequent posts, Plagueis knows that Sadow went into stasis and Kun used the ritual. When he makes reference to the death energy ability, he is referencing other feats us debaters are not privy to.

THE BLACK ARGUMENT

I'm not sure why, in your original analysis, you chose not to mention that Plagueis believed the ancient Sith capable of using the Force to "induce midi-chlorians to create new cells; to subdivide at will, increasing their numbers into the tens of thousands to heal or replace damaged, aging, or metastatic cells. Midi-chlorians had to be compelled to serve the needs of the body; to bestow strength when needed; to overcome physical insult, or prevent cells from reaching senescence.", despite having the passage right in front of you? I'm guessing it just went over your head? 

The "this" is not bifurcated from inducing midichlorians to create life any more than Plagueis' use of the term "extending life" is from "surviving death" or "preventing cells from reaching senescence", senescence meaning "the condition or process of deterioration with age. loss of a cell's power of division and growth."

I mean, it's clear when he says "Some commentators claimed that the ability to survive death" immediately proceeding from "If one accepted the tales [...] the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this." that the standard he is holding the ancient Sith to is not merely extending their lives but extending their lives indefinitely by overcoming cell death, using midi-chlorians to "create new cells". Specifically, the standard upon which he floats his theories is "the ability to survive death".

Also key: "The question of whether he and Sidious had discovered something new or rediscovered something ancient was beside the point." - something you also seem to be gravely misinformed about, a delusion you are labouring under with an impressive amount of strain, is the idea that Plagueis is certain the Sith would have to be more powerful than him in order to use Force Drain fully. But now that we know that Plagueis' own understanding of what the ancient Sith had achieved in the tales was predicated on whether one chose to "believe" in those tales that the ancient Sith were masters of midichlorian manipulation, something patently untrue, we can see why, even as of 32BBY, Plagueis still has the "question" of whether or not a prior Sith had truly induced midichlorians to create life - but now that he himself can do this, the question is irrelevant to him. If Plagueis was as "certain" in his thought experiment as you are insisting, he would not still be wondering in 32BBY if he had been the only one to achieve this effect with the Force.

Nowhere does Plagueis state nor insinuate the ancient Sith extended life by influencing midi-chlorians to self-replicate. The paragraph you are referencing--“While midi-chlorians appeared to resist manipulation of a sort that might imperil the balance of the Force, they remained passive, even compliant, in the case of a weak-willed being manipulated by one who was strong in the Force. Perhaps that explained why it was often easier to call on the Force to heal someone other than oneself. Extending life, then, could hinge on something as simple as being able to induce midi-chlorians to create new cells.”--reads as if it is following Plagueis’ own guesses and logical deductions toward a conclusion that doing such is another possible ways to extend life. That is not how you would phrase all that if you already had many Sith records stating the ancient Sith did specifically that. Again, you have already ironically explained the specifics of the death energy ability: the ancient Sith drew on the midi-chlorians before they were subsumed into the Force. We know that Plagueis can do that too--because the death energy ability is drain Force, as clarified earlier, albeit just taken to a higher pinnacle--and so is aware that it does not involve influencing midi-chlorians to self-replicate. When the death energy ability is taken to its higher pinnacle (which Plagueis explicitly cannot due to lack of knowledge and power), it effectively “bestows strength when needed; to overcome physical insult, or prevent cells from reaching senescence,” in its own way, to extend life/survive death. Hence, Plagueis says, “the ancient Sith had known how to accomplish this.” So, to your "key" point that Plagueis is unsure whether past Sith also mastered midi-chlorian manipulation, that is irrelevant because the ancient Sith in question were not doing that. However, do note that Knights of the Old Republic 2 indeed reveals that this ability can induce midi-chlorian regeneration. Meetra Surik suffered a "mass die-off of midichlorians" only to then "restore her connection to the Force" by feeding on "all the deaths" across her travels. This is done indirectly and thus not midi-chlorian manipulation. 

THE ORANGE ARGUMENT

The first thing to know, then, is what Plagueis himself means when he says "more powerful". It seems clear enough that what he means is "Knowledge is power." He believes that he who has the greatest knowledge of the dark side is the most powerful with it. Specifically, he seems to define power as the ability to achieve a precise effect with the Force, such as extending corporeal life. 

The idea, then, on its face alone, that Naga Sadow would be more powerful than Darth Plagueis simply because he had knowledge of a technique the other lacked (a technique we now know does not exist in the form you've suggested, contrary to your reaching).

Is that a joke? When Plagueis wonders whether Sadow and Kun were either “genuinely more powerful” or “benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras,” how does that refer to “knowledge”? Sadow and Kun being “genuinely more powerful” means they were genuinely more powerful--not that they were genuinely more knowledgeable. And Sadow and Kun being empowered above Plagueis because the galactic Force is more tilted towards the dark side doesn’t mean they were magically rewarded greater knowledge. I'm honestly baffled you insinuated otherwise. Also, Plagueis explicitly identifies "power" as raw power and not knowledge only days before his assessment: "When he reached out with the Force he could detect the presence of something or some being of near-equal power." Ergo, to your "If a Sith of equal power had preceded him, then that one had taken his or her secrets to the grave" point, clearly Plagueis is speculating the fact he can exert his will over the will of the Force and manipulate midi-chlorians to the extent he can suggests he has greater raw power than any before him, as far as he is aware (an argument that you and many others have made as well). Even if you disagree with that and still think it refers to knowledge, your logic is still akin to arguing no "most powerful" quote can be used to refer to raw power because a few refer to politics and knowledge, regardless if the surrounding context of the quote makes it plainly apparent that it is referring to raw power and uses "power" to mean raw power just paragraphs before anyway like with the ancient Sith assessment here. 

You keep getting hung up on this, so read closely. Plagueis is not stating the fact Sadow and Kun know the full technique and he does not make them more powerful. The fact Plagueis has only partial knowledge of the drain energy ability is explicitly irrelevant to his concession of inferiority per himself. Plagueis holds there are only two possible reasons why the ancient Sith are able to do this and he cannot—either of which makes Sadow and Kun more powerful than him—and not also a third option that it is due to his lack of knowledge. In other words, Plagueis believes that even if he knew the full technique, then he still could not drain the death energies of others to the extent that it extends corporeal life because doing such necessitates greater Force power than he possesses. As I said before, either you believe that Plagueis has enough information to make that judgment—which is substantiated by his extensive knowledge of Force drain and extending life built up across almost a century—or that he is misinformed to the degree that he is absolutely certain in a falsehood. The latter is never indicated in the novel and further refuted by all the evidence for the former. 
 
Bane in the above passage, like Plagueis, goes through the uncomfortable line of speculation that what he has heard the Sith do in "tales" and "accounts" defy belief, and that they may be more powerful than him: but the grating irony you must now grapple with is that, that very inquiry, that very self-reflection is what makes Bane and Plagueis superior to the Ancient Sith, and what allowed Plagueis to tap into the "deepest strata of the Force".

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That’s brilliant, actually. Let’s absolutely compare Bane and Plagueis’ questions. 

Bane: “Was it possible there was some other essential element in the process that he was missing? Was there one more secret waiting to be unlocked that would finally allow him to create a Holocron so he could pass his wisdom and knowledge on to his successors? Or was the failure in him? Did he simply lack power? Was his command of the dark side somehow less than that of the ancient Sith Lords like Freedon Nadd?”

Plagueis: “But had Sith like Naga Sadow and Exar Kun genuinely been more powerful, or had they benefited from the fact that the dark side had been more prominent in those bygone eras?”

Bane offers many possible reasons why the ancient Sith are able to create a Sith Holocron and he cannot. These options include that he lacks “essential” knowledge or that he is simply less powerful. The former turns out to be true. In contrast, Plagueis offers strictly two reasons why the ancient Sith are able to do this and he cannot. Unlike Bane, these options explicitly preclude the possibility that Plagueis lacks “essential” knowledge and necessitates that he is simply less powerful. Plagueis is absolutely certain that that is not the case. Thus, the Bane quote readily shows us how a quote could be worded if it is just floating the possibility of ancient Sith superiority like you suggest, whereas the Plagueis quote shows us how a quote could be worded if it is indeed affirming ancient Sith superiority. 

THE PURPLE ARGUMENT

And for all your bluster about how Plagueis is making the "most informed decision in Star Wars history, totes!", you've also purposely and cynically overlooked the fact that Plagueis does not even believe in the existence of Sith Spirits, and even when confronted with the spirit of Marka Ragnos, he did not accept that he was even real:

So, how then is it that "Plagueis knows a lot of stuff, yo!", in your mind, serves as a reasonable enough premise from which to conclude that Plagueis can even know for sure how his power stands relative to those who came millennia before him and whose only memory lives on through fragmented tales and accounts of their capabilities.


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Another red herring. As stated in my blog, Plagueis does not need to know all the powers and power-levels of the ancient Sith to make his death energy ability assessment. Instead, Plagueis just needs to know (A) that the ancient Sith used this death energy ability to extend life, (B) the circumstances around these feats, and (C) the necessary power-level to perform these feats. I have extensively stated in my blog and subsequent posts why Plagueis indeed knows (A), (B), and (C)*. Plagueis' fluctuating atheism relates to none of them. Though, you’re not quite getting all that, so let me put it in a different way. Plagueis is not thinking back to Sadow and Kun, guesstimating their power-level, and concluding they’re probably more powerful than him. Plagueis believes that Sadow and Kun’s ability to drain the death energies of others to the extent that it extends life necessarily means they are more powerful than him, and that he has a sufficient threshold of information to make that claim with absolute certainty. 

* To repeat again, (A) is established by multiple independent sources and mediums and embraced by Plagueis as a part of his doctrine. (B) is known to Plagueis given neither of his binary options concern not having the full story. Refer to Bane’s quote you posted earlier--where he wonders if he lacks the full context behind Holocron creation--as an example of what Plagueis would say if (B) were false. (C) is backed by his extensive knowledge of Force drain, almost a century of “experimentation and deep meditation” toward extending life, and absolute certainty in his conclusion. If (C) were false, again, then Plagueis would be absolutely certain in a falsehood.

THE RED ARGUMENT

Oh - sorry, what was that, Plagueis, my good man?

"In the same way that the pre-Bane Sith had been responsible for their own extinction, the great dark side Lords of the past had doomed themselves to the nether realm through their attempts to conquer death by feeding off the energies of others, rather than by tapping the deepest strata of the Force and learning to speak the language of the midi-chlorians."

It seems, then, that one should not "accept the tales" of ancient Sith Lords who could survive death by drawing on the death energies of others.

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That is in reference to the fact that the death energy ability is a dead-end technique. As you note, Plagueis rightfully points out: “The great dark side Lords of the past had doomed themselves to the nether realm through their attempts to conquer death by feeding off the energies of others.” However, this is readily apparent for anyone--including Plagueis--even by the start of the novel because all the ancient Sith are dead. While the death energy ability could extend life, it evidently could not grant true immortality. Its dependence on external powers ultimately makes the user’s existence dependent on external conditions, and those external conditions always end with death. And that's why midi-chlorian manipulation is an advancement of the death energy ability, mind you. Plagueis can just manipulate his own midi-chlorians to extend life. Meanwhile, the ancient Sith had to drain others to do that. And, as indicated by Kreia and revealed through the Sith Assassins and Darth Nihilus, this leads to great physical and mental deterioration. Taken to its pinnacle, like Nihilus did, they get trapped in a loop of both needing drain and drain destroying them: "And it devours him as he devours others ... Because it is not something that can ever truly be controlled, and it leaves nothing to conquer in its wake." None of that goes against Plagueis’ observations that the ancient Sith were able to use this death energy ability to extend life and survive death for a time, and the fact they were able to do this reveals they were more powerful than him then. You would only have a point if Plagueis still believed some ancient Sith were still alive, which we know is false. 

As an addendum, note that while Plagueis' midi-chlorian manipulation is a superior version of the ancient Sith' drain Force, that does not mean he had mastered it to the extent that he had acquired more raw power than the ancient Sith did before he died. For example, X ancient Sith could still drain a billion Jedi but still be on a timer and lose much of his body and soul, whereas Plagueis may not be able to do that but would still be on the path of true immortality and reach that level of power eventually. However, Plagueis' "there were no powers beyond his reach" declaration was realized just one year before he died and, if his death is any indicator, largely unfulfilled. 

---

I believe that was everything. If you are following this debate and believe I left out something important, let me know and I'll address it.

@ILS: Despite our ever-growing disagreements and your ever-growing hatred-for-everything, I have generally always respected the style and quality of your arguments. However, I think we both know you have presented little more than a @BOD post here. I look forward co-championing this argument with you in the near-future.


Last edited by DarthAnt66 on Mon 16 Mar - 1:22; edited 13 times in total
Geistalt
Geistalt

A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  - Page 2 Empty Re: A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians

on Sun 15 Mar - 21:09
Ant's interpretation of Force Drain being a variant of Sever Force is reaching

and I don't give a shit about any of the ancient Sith or Revan making the top 15

but ILS is even more disappointing, because he hasn't done anything to convince me Tenebrous > Sadow

despite the length of his post
DarthAnt66
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A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  - Page 2 Empty Re: A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians

on Sun 15 Mar - 21:19
Message reputation : 100% (2 votes)
@Geistalt:

That's not quite what I am getting at. I am not stating drain life is a variant of sever Force. I am stating drain Force includes a sever Force aspect. Kreia states this explicitly: "It is a means of severing connections between life, the Force, and feeding upon the death it causes." Sever Force is severing the connection between life and the Force, which triggers a mass die-off midichlorians. Drain Force is severing the connection between life and the Force, which should also trigger a mass-die off midichlorians, and feeding on that death. That explains why when, observing midi-chlorians merge back into the Force, Plagueis notes the ancient Sith fed off these death energies.
Geistalt
Geistalt

A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  - Page 2 Empty Re: A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians

on Sun 15 Mar - 21:20
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
Same difference.
DarthAnt66
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A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  - Page 2 Empty Re: A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians

on Sun 15 Mar - 21:23
Message reputation : 100% (1 vote)
@Geistalt: OK ...? Even if you think draining the death energies of others refers to something else, almost all of the other arguments there and all of the original post should still hold, as none of that is contingent on--or even mentions--defining what the ancient Sith are doing at the midi-chlorian level.
BoD
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A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  - Page 2 Empty Re: A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians

on Sun 15 Mar - 21:26

@ILS: Despite our ever-growing disagreements and your ever-growing hatred-for-everything, I have generally always respected the style and quality of your arguments. However, I think we both know you have presented little more than a @BOD post here. I look forward co-championing this argument with you in the near-future.

@DarthAnt66 And the purpose of this was...?

(Sorry for tagging you btw, ILS. Went to quote.)


Last edited by BoD on Sun 15 Mar - 21:43; edited 3 times in total
Geistalt
Geistalt

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on Sun 15 Mar - 21:26
I think it's more accurate to say it consumed the Force strength or life directly from the victim's midi-chlorians, instead of "feeding off the energy released by their death."
DarthAnt66
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on Sun 15 Mar - 22:18
@Geistalt: Well, "feeding off the energy released by their death" comes from Plagueis' statement that, "And yet the Sith Lords of old were said to have been able to draw on the energies released during death to extend their own lives, as well as the lives of others."
The lord of hunger
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A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians  - Page 2 Empty Re: A Case for the Neo-Antediluvians

on Sun 15 Mar - 22:19
@BoD wrote:
@ILS: Despite our ever-growing disagreements and your ever-growing hatred-for-everything, I have generally always respected the style and quality of your arguments. However, I think we both know you have presented little more than a @BOD post here. I look forward co-championing this argument with you in the near-future.

@DarthAnt66 And the purpose of this was...?

(Sorry for tagging you btw, ILS. Went to quote.)
ye... 

why making a argument of this kind?
lorenzo.r.2nd
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on Mon 16 Mar - 0:14
Yeah, im not too sure on that joke part there. Im convinced that some of u may actually believe some of this shit tbh lol
xolthol
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on Tue 17 Mar - 12:37
@DarthAnt66 Really interresting post I agree with your conclusion. 
I think that because it goes against a decade of thoughts it might be hard for anyone to accept it.
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